The Ten Greatest Conductors of All Time
Rene Kim
Toscaninni,
Mengelberg,
Walter
I would drop Bohm, Solti and Gardiner
Gene Gaudette
Willem Mengelberg
Wilhelm Furtwangler
Fritz Reiner
Aleksander Gauk
Pierre Monteux
Sir Thomas Beecham
Serge Koussevitzky
Carlos Kleiber
Bernard Haitink
Pierre Boulez
Gene
Michael Lemper
newsgroup for several months, and absorbing much information, I
have come up with a potential list of the ten greatest
conductors. Note that while I have heard much of some of these
conductors, and some of most of them, this list is based not on
my personal opinions, but on what I take to be general
consensus from this newsgroup. If I want a recording of some
work, I can pretty much trust one of these conductor's
interpretations (of course, I realize there are exceptions;
people on this group in general don't seem too pleased with
Karajan's Mahler, for instance). In any case, I would be
pleased to hear comments on this list, additions, or deletions.
In no particular order:
Karl Bohm
Wilhelm Furtwangler
Eugen Jochum
Otto Klemperer
Herbert von Karajan
Sir George Solti
J. E. Gardiner
Leonard Bernstein
C. M. Giulini
Erich Kleiber
Thanks,
Mike Lemper
Houston, TX
Dan Koren
>This should start an interesting thread. After reading this
>newsgroup for several months, and absorbing much information, I
>have come up with a potential list of the ten greatest
>conductors. Note that while I have heard much of some of these
>conductors, and some of most of them, this list is based not on
>my personal opinions, but on what I take to be general
>consensus from this newsgroup. If I want a recording of some
>work, I can pretty much trust one of these conductor's
>interpretations (of course, I realize there are exceptions;
>people on this group in general don't seem too pleased with
>Karajan's Mahler, for instance). In any case, I would be
>pleased to hear comments on this list, additions, or deletions.
Boy, are you asking for trouble! :-)) You should be aware that
konduktors are a more divisive topic than anything else in this
group. You're going to need tons of asbestos! Maybe even a nuke-
-proof underground shelter! :-)) You should consider moving to
Montana and living in a cave... :-)))
>In no particular order:
>
>Karl Bohm
Out of question.
>Wilhelm Furtwangler
Yes.
>Eugen Jochum
Out of question.
>Otto Klemperer
Yes.
>Herbert von Karajan
>Sir George Solti
>J. E. Gardiner
Garbage (all three).
>Leonard Bernstein
>C. M. Giulini
>Erich Kleiber
Borderline - they probably won't make it into the top ten.
Here is a better place to start:
-Arthur Nikisch
-Felix Weingartner
-Willem Mengelberg
-Leopold Stokowski
-Wilhelm Furtwaengler
-Sergiu Celibidache
-Jascha Horenstein
-John Barbirolli
-Thomas Beecham
-Otto Klemperer
Note that you asked for an _all_time_ list. This makes it really
tough. It even leaves out the likes of Monteux, Szell, Reiner,
Ormandy, Mitroupoulos, Toscanini, Munch. Koussevitzky, Ansermet,
Mravinsky, Sanderling, Kondrashin or Rozhdestvensky!
dk
Adam W. Grasso
>
> Karl Bohm
Agreed. His Mozart recordings really "breathe." His interpretations of
symphonies and wind concertos are masterful.
> Wilhelm Furtwangler
Haven't heard much conducted by him, but considering the press he gets in
this newsgroup, I'd have to say yes.
> Eugen Jochum
Don't know. Famous for his Bruckner, I guess.
> Otto Klemperer
Yes.
> Herbert von Karajan
I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but I say no way. Karajan
seems to plod along in many of his recordings, and I just can't stand his
smoothing over of all details.
> Sir George Solti
Absolutely. Whole-heartedly. No reservations. (spelled "Georg," by the way)
> J. E. Gardiner
Yes. Love his baroque, but not his other stuff.
> Leonard Bernstein
Yes, albeit grudgingly. He really changed the musical world, and brought
classical music to many people for the first time.
> C. M. Giulini
Nope.
> Erich Kleiber
Don't know. My (flammable? flamable?) list would be:
George Szell
Sir Georg Solti
Otto Klemperer
Karl Bohm
Sir Adrian Boult
Leonard Bernstein
Arturo Toscanini
Fritz Reiner
John Eliot Gardiner
Sir Neville Marriner
--
Adam W. Grasso Dept. of Molecular Biology/Microbiology
aw...@po.cwru.edu Case Western Reserve University
Cleveland, OH USA School of Medicine
Kalman Rubinson
: This should start an interesting thread.
Or a waste of time.
Kal
David M. Cook
covered, except perhaps Ancerl, one of my favorite conductors.) But I
don't find these lists very useful, as many of my favorite recordings are
not by "great" or even famous conductors. I guess I'm still a repetoire
collector and not a collector of performers' ouvres.
Dave Cook
David Pickering
unfortunately, is only a semi-conductor (but, then again, so is Roger
Norrington).
Dave
dp...@andrew.cmu.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the list of recommended recordings on the Naxos label (great
classical music for those on a budget):
http://www.psy.cmu.edu/~dp3u/naxos.html
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists
elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
--Calvin & Hobbes
Rick Hayward
>what I take to be general consensus from this newsgroup:
>Karl Bohm
>Wilhelm Furtwangler
>Eugen Jochum
>Otto Klemperer
>Herbert von Karajan
>Sir George Solti
>J. E. Gardiner
>Leonard Bernstein
>C. M. Giulini
>Erich Kleiber
Well, Mike, it *is * the season for party games! But if your research
is true - what an indictment of this news-group!
No Beecham or Talich - and even worse *Karajan* ( that 'musical
Malcolm Sargent') is there.
RH
Rick Hayward, Wakefield, West Yorkshire
rick.h...@zetnet.co.uk
SUSAN MURRAY
Gee, I wonder what happened to Ormandy??? :-)
Susan
Matthew B. Tepper
>
>This should start an interesting thread. After reading this
>newsgroup for several months, and absorbing much information, I
>have come up with a potential list of the ten greatest
>conductors. Note that while I have heard much of some of these
>conductors, and some of most of them, this list is based not on
>my personal opinions, but on what I take to be general
>consensus from this newsgroup. If I want a recording of some
>work, I can pretty much trust one of these conductor's
>interpretations (of course, I realize there are exceptions;
>people on this group in general don't seem too pleased with
>Karajan's Mahler, for instance). In any case, I would be
>pleased to hear comments on this list, additions, or deletions.
>
>
>Karl Bohm
>Wilhelm Furtwangler
>Eugen Jochum
>Otto Klemperer
>Herbert von Karajan
>Sir George Solti
>J. E. Gardiner
>Leonard Bernstein
>C. M. Giulini
>Erich Kleiber
>
>
>
>Mike Lemper
>Houston, TX
What!? No Toscanini or Weingartner?
--
"Opera is when a guy gets stabbed in the back and instead of bleeding
he sings." -- Ed Gardner
Matthew B. Tepper du...@deltanet.com CIS: 71031,2415
Visit my Berlioz page! http://www.deltanet.com/users/ducky/index.htm
Michael Glover
>Here is a better place to start:
>
>-Arthur Nikisch
>-Felix Weingartner
>-Willem Mengelberg
>-Leopold Stokowski
>-Wilhelm Furtwaengler
>-Sergiu Celibidache
>-Jascha Horenstein
>-John Barbirolli
>-Thomas Beecham
>-Otto Klemperer
>
>dk
A fine place to start, though I would substitute Toscanini for
Weingartner (talent - even if it was often obscured in later years by
human frailties - should win over diligence).
MG
William Whittle
Here are my favorite ten in no particular order:
Monteux
Barbirolli
Ansermet
Boult (very underrated)
Bernstein (with some reservations)
Walter
Reiner (sometimes a little cold, though)
Klemperer
Cantelli
Toscanini
I could name more. We have to give credit to people like Jarvi, Hickox,
and Thomson for giving us so much interesting (and enjoyable) music we
may have not heard before. WRW
Doc Alan
Kleiber (Carlos), Szell, Koussevitsky, Bernstein, Levine, Walter, Nikisch
Alan Briker, M.D.
doc...@aol.com
Robert R. Ramirez
vvvvvv
> ... We have to give credit to people like Jarvi, Hickox,
> may have not heard before. WRW
I second Hickox. His _Das klagende Lied_ with the Bournemouth Symphony
Orchestra is awesome.
Robert Ramirez
kojisato
Freeman ) wrote:
> Christoph von Dohnanyi
> Christoph von Dohnanyi
> Christoph von Dohnanyi
> Christoph von Dohnanyi
> Christoph von Dohnanyi
> Christoph von Dohnanyi
> Christoph von Dohnanyi
> Christoph von Dohnanyi
> Christoph von Dohnanyi
> Christoph von Dohnanyi
>
> Sorry I couldn't put a doohicky over the "a".
> I'd put him down for the most boring conductor of all time.
Anthony D. Dell'Aera
Philomena Connolly
George E. Sjoberg
>-Arthur Nikisch
I am both amazed and puzzled by lists that include Nikisch
I am sure many of us own a copy of the btvn 5th he left, but can we
judge him by this one recording made under amazingly bad conditions
let alone what he did in the rest of his repotoir! And if we are
going to take the judgement of peers on conductors of past eras that
left no recordings then we must include Mahler who Klemperer said was
a hundredt times better that the best conductors of our era (a
paraphrase of OK's comments) or even Fritz Steinbach who didnt leave
any recordings that I'm aware of but was very highly regarded by
Mahler and others and has now become a footnote.
G. Sjoberg star...@pcix.com
>-Felix Weingartner
>-Willem Mengelberg
>-Leopold Stokowski
>-Wilhelm Furtwaengler
>-Sergiu Celibidache
>-Jascha Horenstein
>-John Barbirolli
>-Thomas Beecham
>-Otto Klemperer
Dan Koren
>d...@netcom.com (Dan Koren) wrote:
>
>>-Arthur Nikisch
>
>I am both amazed and puzzled by lists that include Nikisch
>I am sure many of us own a copy of the btvn 5th he left, but can we
>judge him by this one recording made under amazingly bad conditions
>let alone what he did in the rest of his repotoir! And if we are
>going to take the judgement of peers on conductors of past eras that
>left no recordings then we must include Mahler who Klemperer said was
>a hundredt times better that the best conductors of our era (a
>paraphrase of OK's comments) or even Fritz Steinbach who didnt leave
>any recordings that I'm aware of but was very highly regarded by
>Mahler and others and has now become a footnote.
Your point is well taken. Let me say however that I made an exception
in my list for Nikisch, simply because he was considered "the greatest"
conductor ever by his contemporaries -- much in the same way Liszt was/
/is considered "the greatest" pianist ever. I do not think the little
material that Nikisch recorded towards the end of his career can be
used to judge his achievement as a conductor. It is quite possible
that if Nikisch had recorded enough material we might have a rather
different view of him than we do today. After all, Toscanini and
Bruno Walter are no longer considered the ultimate conductors as
they used to be in my childhood days.
Was Mahler "better" or "greater" than Nikisch, or the other way
around? This is a kind of speculation I'd rather not engage in.
My impression is that composers tend to be less versatile as
performers or conductors than non-composers.
dk
Nikos Tavridis
>
>-Arthur Nikisch
>-Felix Weingartner
>-Willem Mengelberg
>-Leopold Stokowski
>-Wilhelm Furtwaengler
>-Sergiu Celibidache
At last a Celi admirer, is found who actually does not live in Munich!
Though he is quite an acquired taste, I can never forget his live
performances, esp. Bruckner.
>-Jascha Horenstein
>-John Barbirolli
>-Thomas Beecham
>-Otto Klemperer
cu
Nikos
amck...@delphi.com
quite difficult. how about koussevitsky, beecham, boult, toscanini,
furtwangler, horenstein, giulini, walter, talich. but i should like
to agree that we should like to be grateful to so many others inc
jarvi, hickox, handley, c kleiber, solti, gardiner, mravinsky, bohm,
haitink, etc. sargeant, bernstein, celibidache, karajan--never.
i hope no ones feelings are hurt! angus mckenzie. uk.
Christian Degen
>George Szell
>Wilhelm Furtw=E4ngler
>Charles Munch
>Pierre Monteux
>Antal Dorati
>Andre Previn
>Sergiu Celibidache
>Leopold Stokowski
>Riccardo Muti
>Charles Mackerras
Christian Degen
Darmstadt, Germany
Patrick Lien
Toscanini
Furtwangler
Klemperer
Walter
Reiner
Szell
Bernstein
Beecham
Stokowski
IMO, of course :)
---------------------------------------------
Patrick Lien
pat...@nai.net
pat...@pcnet.com
http://www.pcnet.com/~patlien/index.html
[ *Paste witty quote here* ]
---------------------------------------------
TJOMalley
<dp...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>Gold, silver, platinum, and copper are all great conductors. Silicon,
>unfortunately, is only a semi-conductor (but, then again, so is Roger
>Norrington).
Should this have been under the "Let's have More Music Jokes" thread???
It's more humorous than some of the things that were!!!
BARRAU MARC
1: Ferenc FRICSAY
2: Wilhelm FURTWAENGLER
3: Evgeni MRAVINSKI
4: Kirill KONDRACHIN
5: Arturo TOSCANINI
6: Herbert von KARAJAN
7: Sir John BARBIROLLI
8: Antal DORATI
9: Georges SZELL
10: Leonard BERNSTEIN
Marc BARRAU
JohnK54250
By the way, he was #45 on the list.
JohnK54250
conductors eh?
And we drag up Toscanini as an example? Mr. Limited Repertoire himself!
Geez, next you'll be going on about Karajan (who once said about Elgar
"why should I conduct second-rate Brahms when I can conduct First Rate
Brahms?" Choice that one.
Frankly, Bernstein demonstrates that this idea is simply not true.
Composer-conductors often have uncanny insights into a piece and while I
don't think they necessarily make better conductors than plain old
conductors, there is no grounds whatsoever for stating they have limited
repertoire.
A few plain old conductors with limited repertoire - Toscanini, Carlos
Kleiber (I think he's made double figures but am not sure), Tennstedt,
Efrem Kurtz, Karajan.
A few composer conductors with massive repertoires - Bernstein, Boulez,
Mahler (for his day), Bruch, Previn.
Anthony Dell'Aera
>-Felix Weingartner
>-Willem Mengelberg
>-Leopold Stokowski
>-Wilhelm Furtwaengler
>-Sergiu Celibidache
>-John Barbirolli
>-Thomas Beecham
>-Otto Klemperer
>
>Note that you asked for an _all_time_ list. This makes it really
>tough. It even leaves out the likes of Monteux, Szell, Reiner,
>Ormandy, Mitroupoulos, Toscanini, Munch. Koussevitzky, Ansermet,
>Mravinsky, Sanderling, Kondrashin or Rozhdestvensky!
Since we are talking all-time, notwithstanding the likes of Mozart and
friends and rather looking closer to modern times, should we not include
Weber and Mahler? Hmmm, Toscanini...his Beethoven is a bit too slow
for me! :)
Tony
Enid Kammin
Arturo Toscanini
Pierre Monteux
Serge Koussevitzky
Felix Weingartner
Wilhelm Furtwangler
Leopold Stokowski
Eugen Jochum
Willem Mengelberg
Nikolai Golovanov
Bruno Walter
Now, I guess I shall catch hell from Reiner fans, Szell fans, Klemperer fans
and fans of Herbie the K. - all great, but not quite, I think, up to these.
Ed. K.
George E. Sjoberg
>My impression is that composers tend to be less versatile as
>performers or conductors than non-composers.
I think I share your impression. I, for one, would be interested in
comparing the breadth of Nikisch's and Malhler's repertoire.
Furtwangelr and Toscanini would both be on my list and in that case
AT the non-composer (setting aside some student pieces) conducted more
works by more composers than did the WF the composer.
Speaking of composing conductors, Otto Klemperer wrote quite a few
works and even recorded one of them. Particularly later in life he
turned out a number of symphonies (nine, I think). So maybe his
example refutes this theory of composer-conductors because he too
conducted an enormous number of works including things by Gershwin and
Debussy.
g. sjoberg
Rick Hayward
The term "my favourites" seems more appropriate than "the ten
greatest....".
Brian Burtt
Brian Burtt / Michigan State University
burt...@pilot.msu.edu -or- burt...@acm.msu.edu
David Rolfe
: d...@netcom.com (Dan Koren) wrote:
: >
: >-Arthur Nikisch
: >-Felix Weingartner
: >-Willem Mengelberg
: >-Leopold Stokowski
: >-Wilhelm Furtwaengler
: >-Sergiu Celibidache
: At last a Celi admirer, is found who actually does not live in Munich!
I too, am a Celibidache admirer.
: Though he is quite an acquired taste, I can never forget his live
: performances, esp. Bruckner.
I agree completely about Bruckner. For the longest time, I was unable to
warm up to his music. SC's live recordings changed all of that for me.
I disagree about him being an acquired taste though. The first time I'd
heard an SC recording, I was hooked. It was a live performance of
Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet Overture. IMO, it's the best on record.
It sounded so different from every other recording I had heard. I felt like
I was listening to that often played work for the very first time.
: >-Jascha Horenstein
: >-John Barbirolli
: >-Thomas Beecham
: >-Otto Klemperer
BTW, I'd also have to sneak Bruno Walter onto this list.
Dave Rolfe
I. Neill Reid
day - his recorded repertoire is a relatively small fraction
of his performance repertoire (which dates back to the late 1880s).
I'm sure that the same is true of Furtwangler, Mengelberg,
Weingartner and other contemporaries. No question that Toscanini
limited his repertoire while conducting the NBCSO - but that was
in the last 30 years of a 60+ year career. I suggest some more
detailed research into programming is required before making
these blanket assertions
Neill Reid - i...@dowland.caltech.edu
Matthew B. Tepper
>
>Composers who conduct are more limited in their repertoire than plain old
>conductors eh?
>And we drag up Toscanini as an example? Mr. Limited Repertoire himself!
Snicker. Take a look at the repertoire list at the back of Harvey Sachs'
biography and see if you still think that.
Dan Koren
>Nikos Tavridis (Nikos.T...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de) wrote:
>
>: At last a Celi admirer, is found who actually does not live in Munich!
No, but I do go on pilgrimage from time to time! :-)
I'd be happy to move to Munich if I only could find a decent paying job.
>I too, am a Celibidache admirer.
>
>: Though he is quite an acquired taste, I can never forget his live
>: performances, esp. Bruckner.
>
>I agree completely about Bruckner. For the longest time, I was unable to
>warm up to his music. SC's live recordings changed all of that for me.
>
>I disagree about him being an acquired taste though. The first time I'd
>heard an SC recording, I was hooked. It was a live performance of
>Tchaikovsky's Romeo and Juliet Overture. IMO, it's the best on record.
>It sounded so different from every other recording I had heard. I felt like
>I was listening to that often played work for the very first time.
Celibidache is not an acquired taste as far as I am concerned. I never
heard interpretations which sound more natural and spontaneous than his.
I have also not heard any conductor coax from an orchestra the sounds he
can get.
>BTW, I'd also have to sneak Bruno Walter onto this list.
And you'd be in serious trouble if you tried! :-)
Walter was one of the most outrageously overrated musicians ever.
Strictly third class.
dk
Ryan M. Hare
: In article <4acge0$h...@pt9201.ped.pto.ford.com> ro...@pt9549.ped.pto.ford.com (David Rolfe) writes:
: >Nikos Tavridis (Nikos.T...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de) wrote:
: And you'd be in serious trouble if you tried! :-)
: Walter was one of the most outrageously overrated musicians ever.
: Strictly third class.
There can be very little question that you are a more enlightened
observer of musical talent than virtually anyone else in history, but I
wonder how Bruno Walter managed to fool Gustav Mahler, who, it seems, was
pretty decent musician. Among others.
Ryan Hare
rh...@u.washington.edu
Owen Hartnett
> >Composers who conduct are more limited in their repertoire than plain old
> >conductors eh?
> >And we drag up Toscanini as an example? Mr. Limited Repertoire himself!
> >"why should I conduct second-rate Brahms when I can conduct First Rate
> >Brahms?" Choice that one.
Toscanini? Limited repertoire?
Obviously, you didn't know of Toscanini's championing of the music of
"his" generation. His promotion of Verdi and Puccini, of whom he was a
contemporary. He conducted the Turin premiere of La Boheme. Toscanini in
his younger days was considered a great champion of contemporary music.
Obviously, what we call contemporary works were not contemporary to him,
and, in his later years, he left championing new music to the younger
generations, but he was far more successful at making music of his
generation popular than succeeding conductors were of making music of
their generation popular.
-Owen
Nikos Tavridis
>In article <4acge0$h...@pt9201.ped.pto.ford.com> ro...@pt9549.ped.pto.ford.com (David Rolfe) writes:
>>Nikos Tavridis (Nikos.T...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de) wrote:
>>
>>: At last a Celi admirer, is found who actually does not live in Munich!
>
>No, but I do go on pilgrimage from time to time! :-)
>I'd be happy to move to Munich if I only could find a decent paying job.
Well Munich isn´t exactly Germany´s sweatshop, unless you have
something really unusual in mind :-))
>
>Celibidache is not an acquired taste as far as I am concerned. I never
>heard interpretations which sound more natural and spontaneous than his.
>I have also not heard any conductor coax from an orchestra the sounds he
>can get.
Well what I meant, is that his playing polarizes people who hear him.
Some (for example Joachim Kaiser, Germany´s premier music critic)
dismiss him as a musical non -entity, other (myself included) speak of
his music in the highest tones
>
>>BTW, I'd also have to sneak Bruno Walter onto this list.
>
>And you'd be in serious trouble if you tried! :-)
>Walter was one of the most outrageously overrated musicians ever.
>Strictly third class.
Well I´d say wildly inconsistent with most performances unfortunately
on the bad side :-)
cu
Nikos
Matthew B. Tepper
>
> In article <4a0q06$9...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> doc...@aol.com (Doc Alan) wrote:
> >My favorites (in no particular order): Solti, Toscanini, Furtwangler,
> >Kleiber (Carlos), Szell, Koussevitsky, Bernstein, Levine, Walter, Nikisch
> >Alan Briker, M.D.
>
> A fine conductor. I especially like his Bruckner and his Mahler.
>
> Aaron
And, hey, how about that Bernstein and his bedside manner?
--
Matthew B. Tepper * Management and Info Systems Consultant * tep...@psrinc.com
Positive Support Review, Inc. * Management Consultants * in...@psrinc.com
World Wide Web site: http://www.psrinc.com/psr.htm * 1996 Compensation Study
and PC Policies and Procedures Management HandiGuide® (revised ed.) available!
Rick Hayward
>>I too, am a Celibidache admirer.
The problem with Celibidache is that he has spent too much time being
precious to rank as a conductor - all one can say is that he has
promise!
Aaron Ginn
>Toscanini? Limited repertoire?
>
>Obviously, you didn't know of Toscanini's championing of the music of
>"his" generation. His promotion of Verdi and Puccini, of whom he was a
>contemporary. He conducted the Turin premiere of La Boheme. Toscanini in
>his younger days was considered a great champion of contemporary music.
Has anyone mentioned Hans Von Bulow? If being a champion of contemporary music is a qualification for making this list, he certainly qualifies. No one was a more emphatic supporter of Richard Wagner in the middle 1800's than he. At least until Wagner stole his wife!
Aaron
Richard Wang
Arnold M Cohen <co...@rtsg.mot.com> wrote:
>Just because somebody is different, you guys just don't like him do you?
I assume you're referring to Roger Norrington. Let me assure you that
there are far better reasons for disliking his work than simple Old
School prejudice.
>|> In article <wkl7KAC00...@andrew.cmu.edu>, David Pickering
>|> <dp...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>|>
>|> >Gold, silver, platinum, and copper are all great conductors. Silicon,
>|> >unfortunately, is only a semi-conductor (but, then again, so is Roger
>|> >Norrington).
--
Richard Wang rw...@fas.harvard.edu
"You say it is the good cause that hallows even war? I say unto you: it is
the good war that hallows any cause. War and courage have accomplished
more great things than love of the neighbor." -- Zarathustra
JohnK54250
of Puccini, Boito and Respighi to name a few (Strauss too for that matter)
he was hardly a daring advocate of post Stravinskian stuff!
Stokowski once lamented that he "missed Bartok" and he regretted that. He
was about the only guy Stoki did miss. Toscanini missed everyone virtually
after 1905. Yes, he did the Harris Third and the Shostakovitch 7th (not
very well in my opinion). Wow.
JohnK54250
is a tad wayward in his opinion of Celi.
He was named immediately after WW2 as successor to Furtwangler as
conductor of the BPO - an orchestra which would never take such a decision
lightly. The recordings and broadcasts he made at that time indicate a
conductor of fire and power - yes, he was making effects rather than music
some of the time, but he was a fiery one for sure.
Now he has turned spiritual/mystical on us. He doesn't like to make CDs or
records (though is not averse to the odd laserdisc...huh?). He does his
orchestra a MASSIVE disservice here (since they don't earn $$) and that
only preens his iconoclastic ego. BUT, I have heard him live three times -
with the LSO in 1980, with the Curtis Orchestra (who outplayed the
Philadelphia by a mile) and the MPO here in NY. This man, in the flesh can
really conduct, he can really communicate, he can really make them play
for him and he can really make the notes "live". This is why he is a true
master. There are many more overtly exciting conductors on today's podia -
but few musicians as inspired or inspiring a Celibidache.
Matthew B. Tepper
>
> Mr Hayward (in spite of being a fellow Yorshireman - I grew up in Leeds)
> is a tad wayward in his opinion of Celi.
> He was named immediately after WW2 as successor to Furtwangler as
> conductor of the BPO - an orchestra which would never take such a decision
> lightly. The recordings and broadcasts he made at that time indicate a
> conductor of fire and power - yes, he was making effects rather than music
> some of the time, but he was a fiery one for sure.
Almost true. The conductor who was originally named to sub for Furtwängler
(while that conductor was enduring the denazification rituals) was some
apolitical German whose name I've forgotten [Otto Schmink? :--)] who was
killed in an automobile accident before he could actually begin. The task
then went to the apolitical Roumanian philosophy student. Celibidache, by
the way, appears to have been very good-looking as a young man; check out
his appearance in the film "Botschafter der Musik" if you can find it.
> Now he has turned spiritual/mystical on us. He doesn't like to make CDs or
> records (though is not averse to the odd laserdisc...huh?). He does his
> orchestra a MASSIVE disservice here (since they don't earn $$) and that
> only preens his iconoclastic ego. BUT, I have heard him live three times -
> with the LSO in 1980, with the Curtis Orchestra (who outplayed the
> Philadelphia by a mile) and the MPO here in NY. This man, in the flesh can
> really conduct, he can really communicate, he can really make them play
> for him and he can really make the notes "live". This is why he is a true
> master. There are many more overtly exciting conductors on today's podia -
> but few musicians as inspired or inspiring a Celibidache.
I made a point of hearing him with his Munich orchestra three times, in three
different programs, when they came to Los Angeles at the beginning of 1987.
I'm glad I heard him, but I'm definitely not ready to call him one of the
"greats." He gets some wonderful line and magnificent color from his
players, but I'm afraid I simply can't get past the tempi which make such as
Klemps or Kna look like speed demons. *I* could probably get damn good
playing out of an orchestra if we always took rehearsal tempi and worked on
a single program for months in advance. I remain unconvinced.
U Abiog Pontillas
>=20
> And, hey, how about that Bernstein and his bedside manner?
So what? I don't think it has got anything to do with his capacity and=20
excellence as an artist.
> --=20
> Matthew B. Tepper * Management and Info Systems Consultant * tepper@psrin=
c.com
> Positive Support Review, Inc. * Management Consultants * info@psrin=
c.com
> World Wide Web site: http://www.psrinc.com/psr.htm * 1996 Compensation =
Study
> and PC Policies and Procedures Management HandiGuide=AE (revised ed.) ava=
ilable!
>=20
>=20
>=20
Michael Glover
Celibidache was not always so universally and outlandishly slow; that
facet seems to have been a characteristic of the last 20 years. Much of
his earlier work showed remarkable musical and textural insights, whilst
straying far less frequently towards lugubrious tempi. The Bruckner 9 on
Dino Classics with the RAI from 1968 (writing from memory - possibly
impaired after several Yuletide cocktail parties) is a case in point; he
makes a second rate orchestra produce extraordinary sounds and presents
the symphony in fascintaing new clothes.
MG
Nikos Tavridis
>My dig at Celibidache was not meant to dispute his basic musicianship,
>but to point out that music has to be *made*, and Celibidache does too
>little of this to be ranked amongst the great music *makers*.
Well , certainly, if he did, he would be called a composer :-))
On the serious side, I don´t think you can level that charge on Celi.
He makes his mark on the music, as well as anybody in this century did
>
>Music isn't primarily a spiritual experience - its a crafting of sound
>which has to precede any experience that the listener may derive.
I am afraid I lost you on this one!
cu
Nikos
Paul Mattal
order they came to mind..
Toscanini
Monteux
Stokowski
Furtwangler
Levine
Muti
Boulez
Walter
Barbirolli
Klemperer
A speculation: Anyone know how Berlioz was as a conductor? His music would
indicate he was probably very good, and since this is an all-time list..
Comments, criticisms, queries welcome!
Paul Mattal
pjma...@princeton.edu
Sang-hyun Kim
There are very important conductors missing , who don't like
recordings.
First : Karlos Kleiber.
I'm excited even when I heard his name.
Hear his Beethoven 7th, 5th symphony.
Second : Celibidache.
Do you hear his "Emperor" performed with Michelangeli?
Sang-hyun Kim
??? Why no
John Elliot Gardiner
and
Esa Peka Salonen?
Don't depend on only legend.
Gene Gaudette
Time>, 'shkim@I_should_put_my_domain_in_etc_NNTP_INEWS_DOMAIN (Sang-hyun
Kim)' wrote:
>
>??? Why no
>
> John Elliot Gardiner
of emotional involvement in general.
>
>and
> Esa Peka Salonen?
Give him a few years...he's very exciting, and great with post-WWII
repertoire.
Gene
Liz Beaumont Bissell
> ggau...@nyc.pipeline.com (Gene Gaudette) wrote:
> >More fuel for the fire: my top ten (today, at least)
> >
> >Willem Mengelberg
> >Wilhelm Furtwangler
> >Fritz Reiner
> >Aleksander Gauk
Interesting - I only know him from conducting Oistrakh's unsurpassed and
highly romanticised Russian recordings of the major violin concertos
(rather than the slightly more urbane recordings he made in Western
Europe). Presumably he conducted lots of Russian repertoire? I shall
look out for his recordings.
> >Pierre Monteux
> >Sir Thomas Beecham
> >Serge Koussevitzky
> >Carlos Kleiber
> >Bernard Haitink
> >Pierre Boulez
Can't resist these things:
Mengelberg
Toscanini (Why is everyone being sophisticated about Toscanini?) ;)
Erich Kleiber
Furtwangler
Talich
Klemperer
Walter
Fricsay
Szell
Kondrashin
Fontaine
In alphabetical order:
William Christie
John Elliot Gardiner
Reinhard Goebel
Roy Goodman
Nikolaus Harnoncourt
Phillip Herreweghe
Rene Jacobs
Ton Koopman
Christophe Rousset
Jordy Savall
;-)
David M. Cook
Fontaine <mic...@rhein.iam.uni-bonn.de> wrote:
>William Christie
>John Elliot Gardiner
>Reinhard Goebel
>Roy Goodman
>Nikolaus Harnoncourt
>Phillip Herreweghe
>Rene Jacobs
>Ton Koopman
>Christophe Rousset
>Jordy Savall
AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
You've just described my vision of hell. ;)
Dave Cook
Chang Wu Ji
<In alphabetical order:
<William Christie
<John Elliot Gardiner
<Reinhard Goebel
<Roy Goodman
<Nikolaus Harnoncourt
<Phillip Herreweghe
<Rene Jacobs
<Ton Koopman
<Christophe Rousset
<Jordy Savall
Besides Gardiner, Harnoncourt, and Goodman, I have never heard of any of the
other seven, mind telling me who these people are ? Rene Jacobs ? Is he the
chump they name Jacob's Fields in Cleveland after ?
Blin,Jacques
William J. Karzas
<rap...@mit.edu> wrote:
An MIT student certainly should have enough curiosity [and the ability] to
do little research before asking so imperiously for information.
Why I do it I don't know, but I'll try to educate you. To wit:
Rene Jacobs has conducted [in recordings] the Concerto Koln, the Hamburg
Opera Company, then Schola Cantorum Basiliensis.
William Christie is a well-known early music specialist who has recorded
many works, operas, etc. with his group 'Les Arts Florissants'.
Reinhard Goebel conducts the Cologne Musica Antiqua.
Phillip Herreweghe leads choirs and orchedstras associated with the
Chapelle Royale of Paris, the Netherlands Chaamber Choir, the Ghent
Colegium Vocal, etc.
Ton Koopman conducts the Amsterdam Baroque and Chamber Orchestras.
Jordy Savall leads La Capella Relal and the Hesperion XX orchestra.
Christophe Rousset is not known to me, but I think we are safe in assuming
that he, like the others, is an early music specialist.
--
Bill Karzas wjk...@pacificnet.net
wjk...@alumni.caltech.edu
ah...@lafn.org
Rick Hayward
>rick.h...@zetnet.co.uk (Rick Hayward) wrote:
>>Music isn't primarily a spiritual experience - its a crafting of sound
>>which has to precede any experience that the listener may derive.
>I am afraid I lost you on this one!
What I meant was that if you don't hear it, it isn't music - and it's
difficult to hear much that Celibidache has accomplished. I don't mean
that quantity equates to quality, but I think that a conductor's work
has to reach a certain critical mass if he is to be classed amongst
the finest.
Nikos Tavridis
>Nikos.T...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Nikos Tavridis) wrote:
>
>>rick.h...@zetnet.co.uk (Rick Hayward) wrote:
>
>
>
>What I meant was that if you don't hear it, it isn't music - and it's
>difficult to hear much that Celibidache has accomplished. I don't mean
>that quantity equates to quality, but I think that a conductor's work
>has to reach a certain critical mass if he is to be classed amongst
>the finest.
Well , your semantics are kind of confused., but I think I get the
meaning. However I beg to differ: It is rather arbitrary to equate
critical mass with recorded mass. If you haven´t heard Celi live
enough times to see that he has reached critical mass long ago, then
you are probably not qualified to bestow any opinion upon this matter.
Always de gustibus non disputandum naturally..
Nikos
JÖRGEN LUNDMARK
as I know him, Celibidache is a show pianist, at his best.
jorgen
Richard Wang
Chang Wu Ji <rap...@mit.edu> wrote:
>On Dec 15, michel wrote:
><In alphabetical order:
>
><William Christie
><John Elliot Gardiner
><Reinhard Goebel
><Roy Goodman
><Nikolaus Harnoncourt
><Phillip Herreweghe
><Rene Jacobs
><Ton Koopman
><Christophe Rousset
><Jordy Savall
>
>Besides Gardiner, Harnoncourt, and Goodman, I have never heard of any of the
>other seven, mind telling me who these people are ?
As you might expect, all are conductors from the period performance
crowd--except for Christophe Rousset, who AFAIK is "merely" a harpsichord
player, and a fine one at that. William Christie made a recording of
_Messiah_ a year or two ago which was very well received despite some
horrendously accented choral singing ("Leeft up your heads"), and won a
Gramophone Award this year for a disc of motets by Rameau. Goebel
conducts the Musica Antiqua Koln, and has turned out both the most
unrelentingly paced Brandenburgs I have ever heard and some excellent
discs of Baroque concerti. Koopman is a fine harpsichordist and organist
and IMHO is much underrated as a conductor of choral music. I don't know
much about the others.
Fontaine
: In article <4av9p1$m...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, Chang Wu Ji
: <rap...@mit.edu> wrote:
: > On Dec 15, michel wrote:
: > <In alphabetical order:
: >
: > <William Christie
: > <John Elliot Gardiner
: > <Reinhard Goebel
: > <Roy Goodman
: > <Nikolaus Harnoncourt
: > <Phillip Herreweghe
: > <Rene Jacobs
: > <Ton Koopman
: > <Christophe Rousset
: > <Jordy Savall
: >
: > Besides Gardiner, Harnoncourt, and Goodman, I have never heard of any of the
: > other seven, mind telling me who these people are ? Rene Jacobs ? Is he the
: > chump they name Jacob's Fields in Cleveland after ?
: An MIT student certainly should have enough curiosity [and the ability] to
: do little research before asking so imperiously for information.
: Why I do it I don't know, but I'll try to educate you. To wit:
: Rene Jacobs has conducted [in recordings] the Concerto Koln, the Hamburg
: Opera Company, then Schola Cantorum Basiliensis.
Very correct! Go for his recordings of the Monteverdi operas. Great!
: William Christie is a well-known early music specialist who has recorded
: many works, operas, etc. with his group 'Les Arts Florissants'.
Try his recording of Charpentier's "Medee". One of the best baroque opera
I know in an almost perfect interpretation.
: Reinhard Goebel conducts the Cologne Musica Antiqua.
Try anything. Almost everything is very exiting.
: Phillip Herreweghe leads choirs and orchedstras associated with the
: Chapelle Royale of Paris, the Netherlands Chaamber Choir, the Ghent
: Colegium Vocal, etc.
Try some Bach with Herreweghe, e.g. the Passions.
And so on...
: Ton Koopman conducts the Amsterdam Baroque and Chamber Orchestras.
: Jordy Savall leads La Capella Relal and the Hesperion XX orchestra.
: Christophe Rousset is not known to me, but I think we are safe in assuming
: that he, like the others, is an early music specialist.
Yes, he is. First he is a very good harpsichord-player, try his Couperin,
and recently he did some nice recordings as a conductor with "Les Talents
lyriques".
Matthew B. Tepper
>
>It has to be GOD with his ever unfinished symphony !!!
Well, gee, thanks for your helpful addition to the debate.
Don't tell me, you're André Tubeuf's younger brother, right?
--
"Opera is when a guy gets stabbed in the back and instead of bleeding
he sings." -- Ed Gardner
Matthew B. Tepper du...@deltanet.com CIS: 71031,2415
Visit my Berlioz page! http://www.deltanet.com/users/ducky/index.htm
Alain Dagher
|> On Dec 15, michel wrote:
|> <In alphabetical order:
|>
|> <William Christie
|> <John Elliot Gardiner
|> <Reinhard Goebel
|> <Roy Goodman
|> <Nikolaus Harnoncourt
|> <Phillip Herreweghe
|> <Rene Jacobs
|> <Ton Koopman
|> <Christophe Rousset
|> <Jordy Savall
|>
|> Besides Gardiner, Harnoncourt, and Goodman, I have never heard of any of the
|> other seven, mind telling me who these people are ? Rene Jacobs ? Is he the
|> chump they name Jacob's Fields in Cleveland after ?
And you're the guy who was trying to tell us who does and doesn't belong in the
top 15 conductors of all time?
ad
William J. Karzas
Nikos.T...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Nikos Tavridis) wrote:
> rick.h...@zetnet.co.uk (Rick Hayward) wrote:
>
> >Nikos.T...@lrz.uni-muenchen.de (Nikos Tavridis) wrote:
> >
> >>rick.h...@zetnet.co.uk (Rick Hayward) wrote:
> >
> >
>
> >
> >What I meant was that if you don't hear it, it isn't music - and it's
> >difficult to hear much that Celibidache has accomplished. I don't mean
> >that quantity equates to quality, but I think that a conductor's work
> >has to reach a certain critical mass if he is to be classed amongst
> >the finest.
>
> Well , your semantics are kind of confused., but I think I get the
> meaning. However I beg to differ: It is rather arbitrary to equate
> critical mass with recorded mass. If you haven´t heard Celi live
> enough times to see that he has reached critical mass long ago, then
> you are probably not qualified to bestow any opinion upon this matter.
>
Since this is posted on *rec.music.classical.recordings*, I do not think
it is improper for Rick or anyone else to judge a conductor's ranking on
his recorded output.
Perhaps we could have 2 threads, the other in rec.music.classical or
rec.music.classical.performance [I think there may be some such group] and
distinguish between judgements based on recordings and live performance
audition. Of course, this latter group will be a small and diminishing
one and would soon exclude the Furtwanglers, Toscaninis, etc. This points
up the fallacy of excluding recording audition as a basis for judgement.
Nikos Tavridis
On Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:10:43 -0800, you wrote:
>(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
>rec.music.classical.recordings)
>> >What I meant was that if you don't hear it, it isn't music - and it's
>> >difficult to hear much that Celibidache has accomplished. I don't mean
>> >that quantity equates to quality, but I think that a conductor's work
>> >has to reach a certain critical mass if he is to be classed amongst
>> >the finest.
>>
>> Well , your semantics are kind of confused., but I think I get the
>> meaning. However I beg to differ: It is rather arbitrary to equate
>> critical mass with recorded mass. If you haven´t heard Celi live
>> enough times to see that he has reached critical mass long ago, then
>> you are probably not qualified to bestow any opinion upon this matter.
>>
>Since this is posted on *rec.music.classical.recordings*, I do not think
>it is improper for Rick or anyone else to judge a conductor's ranking on
>his recorded output.
Are we splitting hairs here or something?
>
>Perhaps we could have 2 threads, the other in rec.music.classical or
>rec.music.classical.performance [I think there may be some such group] and
>distinguish between judgements based on recordings and live performance
>audition. Of course, this latter group will be a small and diminishing
>one and would soon exclude the Furtwanglers, Toscaninis, etc. This points
>up the fallacy of excluding recording audition as a basis for judgement.
No, no but Celi is a special case. I really do not think you can judge
him adequately by his recordings.Nothing to do with judging
Furtwängler & Co. Just compare the number of available recordings!
cu
Nikos
James C Liu
[William Karzas wrote:]
[[dk wrote?:]
>>> Well , your semantics are kind of confused., but I think I get the
>>> meaning. However I beg to differ: It is rather arbitrary to equate
>>> critical mass with recorded mass. If you haven´t heard Celi live
>>> enough times to see that he has reached critical mass long ago, then
>>> you are probably not qualified to bestow any opinion upon this matter.
>>>
>>Since this is posted on *rec.music.classical.recordings*, I do not think
>>it is improper for Rick or anyone else to judge a conductor's ranking on
>>his recorded output.
>Are we splitting hairs here or something?
>>
>>Perhaps we could have 2 threads, the other in rec.music.classical or
>>rec.music.classical.performance [I think there may be some such group] and
>>distinguish between judgements based on recordings and live performance
>>audition. Of course, this latter group will be a small and diminishing
>>one and would soon exclude the Furtwanglers, Toscaninis, etc. This points
>>up the fallacy of excluding recording audition as a basis for judgement.
>No, no but Celi is a special case. I really do not think you can judge
>him adequately by his recordings.Nothing to do with judging
>Furtwängler & Co. Just compare the number of available recordings!
The whole question of who is/are the "greatest" conductor(s) strikes me
as nebulous and arbitrary anyway, given all the subjective opinion involved
in such a process. The experience of a single live performance is completely
different, because of atmosphere, because of its ephemeral nature, etc.,
from a recorded performance. Furtwaengler, so the legnds go, pulled off
stuff in concert that does not necessarily work as well upon repeated
listening. Conductors that rely on a certain mystical inspiration and
the spur of the moment do tend to do better in concert. So how do you
compare a studio wizard with a great live conductor?
(I guess the answer is related to the way one compares the superiority
of Bach vs. Mozart vs. Shostakovich vs. whatever ...)
--
/James C.S. Liu "Take my word for it, the silliest woman can
jl...@world.std.com manage a clever man, but it needs a very
Boston, Massachusetts clever woman to manage a fool."
-- Rudyard Kipling, _Three Tales from the Hills_