Dudamel/LAPO Mahler 9 on DG - Does Anyone Care?

[Mark S]

How many of you are planning on buying this latest recording from DG?

There was a time when I looked forward to DG releases. When my
disposable income was budgeted ahead of time, usually by perusing the
back pages of Gramophone. Of course, that's when DG was releasing
Mahler 9s conducted by Bernstein, Giulini, Karajan and Abbado.

I realize that no record label can thrive if all they do is re-re-
reissue their back catalog. New artists need to be recorded, if for no
other reason than to construct a musical document of what went on
during a particular era.

But I have to say that there's little if anything new being released
by DG these days that is of even a fleeting interest to me.

[Gerard]

Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> typed:

> How many of you are planning on buying this latest recording from DG?

Not me.
What reason could there be? Is this recording 'better' than previous ones?

[John Thomas]

On Jan 29, 9:10 am, "Gerard" <ghendrikse_nospa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> typed:

>
> > How many of you are planning on buying this latest recording from DG?
>
> Not me.
> What reason could there be? Is this recording 'better' than previous ones?

I doubt that any recording released today is "better" than all
previous ones. The classical record divisions could save themselves
and us a lot of money by confining themselves to re-releases in
improved sound from their back catalogues. Gus Dudamel can switch to
driving a bus for all I care.

[Gerard]

John Thomas <abras...@gmail.com> typed:

There must be a lot of music that has not been recorded very often (or not at
all, or not yet in very good sound). I think there are possibilities for
conductors, etc.
But not when every conductor is going to record Mahler or Beethoven or Mozart.

[J.Martin]

This is one of those cases in which I'll be interested to see what
others think about the disc, and if there's enough positive response,
I may break down and buy it. It's certainly not out of the question
that Dudamel would make an interesting M9. I don't expect new
versions to "top" the classic recordings I already own, but at this
point there needs to be something special (different or interesting,
anyway) about them to make me want to add to the many M9s I already
own.

Speaking of the Abbado Mahler 9, I wonder if anyone knows whether the
recent reissue of his Berlin performance on DG's "20C" series cleans
up any of the problems with the recording (odd perspective shifts and
the like) that people complained about in the 2002 issue?

[Thornhill]

For me to buy yet another Mahler recording, I need some extra value,
like for it to be a multi-channel SACD (I'll admit that one of the
reasons I've been buying the Ivan Fisher Mahler recordings is that
they are SACDs in state of the art sound). In fact, despite how hot
Dudamel is at the moment, I imagine this release will lose some sales
because it isn't a SACD and (not that there are a huge number of SACD
owners out there, but they represent a large proportion of people who
still buy classical music on physical media).

[arri bachrach]

On Jan 29, 12:31 pm, "Gerard" <ghendrikse_nospa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed:

most 'great' and even just good music has been recorded many times by
various artists and orchestras. There would have to be some speciasl
about a new recording to make it worthwile to purchse.

AB

[Gerard]

arri bachrach <abach...@gmail.com> typed:

See Naxos. (That's not "just good music"?)

[wkasimer]

On Jan 29, 12:04 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> How many of you are planning on buying this latest recording from DG?

Unless the review are uniformly negative, I'll probably buy it - when
I see a used copy selling for $4 or so.

Bill

[Oscar]

On Jan 29, 9:04 am, Mark S wrote:
>
> But I have to say that there's little if anything new being released
> by DG these days that is of even a fleeting interest to me.

The old 'fat and happy' argument. The price of peace. Wouldn't it be
great to hear another masterpiece like Bruno Walter's Anschluß Eve
Mahler 9 or Furtwängler's total war Beethoven 9? Maybe when Chávez
dies and the goon sqauds are unleashed there, we'll be 'treated' to
the killer Rite of Spring that we've all been dying to hear from the
Dude and his Bolívars, preferably a tin-wire aircheck in the shit-
acoustic of Teatro Teresa Carreño, available for download on
symphonyshare or 24-bit XR remastering at Pristine. In the meantime,
you'll have to be content watching Carl St. Clair and the Pacific
Symphony play Beethoven 7 and the Emperor concerto...outdoors at the
local amphitheater (not there's anything wrong with that). Sounds
exceptionally boring to me, but in Aliso Viejo that's like a NASCAR
race or a turkey shoot or something.

America is changing, Mark. Gustavo Dudamel is the hottest conductor in
the land. (Hey, I'm just the messenger.) He sells tickets like there's
no tomorrow, even in London, and has billboards all over the city with
just his name 'PASIÓN DUDAMEL' http://tiny.cc/vpporw Some critics even
like his Mahler — German ones, no less! It causes bewilderment and
confusion among some, yet the American experiment continues, a new
generation rises. Morlot in Seattle, Urbanski in Indianapolis, Nézet-
Séguin in Philly, Orozco-Estrada in Houston, Dudamel in LA. And they
just keep on comin'.

On Nov 7 2012, 9:10 am, Mark S wrote:
>
> Get on the bus or get run over.

Musical teleology, get used to it.

Maybe the question should be: in the past four years, why haven't
_you_ made the 50-mile trip north to take in one of the world's
greatest concert halls and judge for yourself the Music Director at
the head of the world's largest-budgeted classical music organization
($96.9 million in 2011)? I mean, you're former big wig at the Las
Vegas Philharmonic and lifelong classical music junkie, aren't you at
least be _curious_ to see how the show is run 'el norte'. Having seen
Dudamel in concert 17 times over the last 5 years — he works 7 minutes
from where I live, why not? — I have posted my criticisms of Dudamel
here before, and I haven't bought one of his studio albums in a few
years with SBSO in a few years. His Mahler 9 with LA, however, which I
saw twice in two successive seasons (warm-up for European Tour in
January 2011, and The Mahler Project in January 2012), was actually
superb, especially the latter performance. But why not make your mind
up for yourself...the old-fashioned way. Like these guys!

From Los Angeles Times, January 29, 2011:

<< ... the Kolnische Rundschau declared that the orchestra under
Dudamel "performed phenomenally," particularly in the final movement
of Mahler's iconic last symphony, which exhibited "the greatest
care...The quieter the music became, the greater the silence in the
audience (the emotion was scarcely disturbed when a double-bass player
had to hurry from the stage in the final measures because of a
coughing fit)....In Gustavo Dudamel the music world has found a great
Mahler conductor."

Another German critic from General-Anzeiger wrote that the orchestra
"paid attention to every atmospheric nuance" of Mahler's Ninth and
that the piece was "meticulously realized by the orchestra." >>

[Mark S]

On Jan 29, 11:02 am, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 29, 9:04 am, Mark S wrote:
>
>
>
> > But I have to say that there's little if anything new being released
> > by DG these days that is of even a fleeting interest to me.
>
> The old 'fat and happy' argument. The price of peace. Wouldn't it be
> great to hear another masterpiece like Bruno Walter's Anschluß Eve
> Mahler 9 or Furtwängler's total war Beethoven 9? Maybe when Chávez
> dies and the goon sqauds are unleashed there, we'll be 'treated' to
> the killer Rite of Spring that we've all been dying to hear from the
> Dude and his Bolívars, preferably a tin-wire aircheck in the shit-
> acoustic of Teatro Teresa Carreño, available for download on
> symphonyshare or 24-bit XR remastering at Pristine. In the meantime,
> you'll have to be content watching Carl St. Clair and the Pacific
> Symphony play Beethoven 7 and the Emperor concerto...outdoors at the
> local amphitheater (not there's anything wrong with that). Sounds
> exceptionally boring to me, but in Aliso Viejo that's like a NASCAR
> race or a turkey shoot or something.

I actually attended that outdoor concert at the Verizon Center. Well,
half of it. It was 90-something degrees outside, the venue is a dump
and the sound system is mediocre. We left after the 7th, which was
unexceptional.

Of course, your "point" (as if there is ever a point to your posts) is
to take a swipe at the Pacific Symphony (and by extension, Orange
County) because they and it are not LA. Isn't that type of knee-jerk
bias just another example of what you just called "the old fat and
happy argument?"

As far as the PSO under Carl St Clair, no, they don't record for DG.
But they have recorded for Sony Classical. Not the old warhorses
Dudamel seems intent on recording in LA and elsewhere, but music by
composers like Takemitsu and Goldenthal. On smaller labels like Koch,
they've recorded music by Foss, Corigliano, Danielpour and Villa-
Lobos. Their latest recording - released last October on Orange
Mountain - was the world-premiere recording of Philip Glass' "The
Passion of Ramakrishna."

Granted, not adventurous music like Mahler 9 and the Eroica like DG is
recording in LA (or with Dudamel's youth orchestra) these days, but,
what the hell!

As far as your taking pot-shots at the career of Carl St Clair, I'd
point out that he is one of the handful of conductors who has been
entrusted with conducting Wagner's Ring for video release. Maybe
that's a project that's in Dudamel's distant future (nah, probably
not). But then, St Clair was only a Bernstein protege. He was - in
fact - the conductor who led Bernstein's own ''Arias and Barcarolles''
on Bernstein's final concert at Tanglewood, which was released on DG
CD (minus St Clair's contribution, of course).

Compared to your boy Dudamel, what would St Clair know about Mahler,
or Beethoven, for that matter?

Next, you'll be taking St Clair to task for sticking with the Pacific
Symphony for 20 years, rather than hopping into the jet stream and
getting himself a "real career" as a conductor.

[Herman]

Le mardi 29 janvier 2013 20:02:42 UTC+1, Oscar a écrit :


>
> America is changing, Mark. Gustavo Dudamel is the hottest conductor in
>
> the land. (Hey, I'm just the messenger.) He sells tickets like there's
>
> no tomorrow, even in London, and has billboards all over the city with
>
> just his name 'PASIÓN DUDAMEL'

I would say America is just as it was a hundred and fifty years ago.

You're peddling snake oil.

I'll grant you that Dudamel is 'hot' and is selling tickets.

However that's not because of anything he's doing musically, but just because of the hype.

As to the OP question. No I don't think I need yet another Mahler 9.

[Herman]

Le mardi 29 janvier 2013 20:59:29 UTC+1, Herman a écrit :


>
> As to the OP question. No I don't think I need yet another Mahler 9.

And the reason why is I don't think Mahler 9 is the conductor's or orchestra's ultimate test (certainly not in studio conditions).

I think a good Haydn symphony would be a better a piece to judge what a conductor can achieve. Of course there's no way Dudamel is ever going to record a Haydn symphony.

[Mark S]

On Jan 29, 12:04 pm, Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think a good Haydn symphony would be a better a piece to judge what a conductor can achieve.

Truer words have never been spoken on rmcr.

[Oscar]

On Jan 29, 11:59 am, Herman wrote:
>
> I would say America is just as it was a hundred and fifty years ago.

You? Curt and dismissive of the Land of the 'Free Lance Armstrong' and
the Home of the Brave Barack Hussein Obama??

> You're peddling snake oil.

German critics in Köln, too? Like I said, 'I'm just the messenger.'
They wrote what they wrote. Ticket sales are ticket sales. I can't
help it if Bon Jovi is bigger in Europe in terms of concert attendance
than they are in the US.

> I'll grant you that Dudamel is 'hot' and is selling tickets.

Lots of tickets. LA Phil operating budget nearly $100 million.

But Dudamel wasn't even the highest-paid conductor in town in 2010,
his first full calendar year in LA (figures include salary and
benefits):
• Gustavo Dudamel: $985,363 (Los Angeles Philharmonic)
• James Conlon: $993,696 (LA Opera)

> However that's not because of anything he's doing musically, but just because of the hype.

What is the basis of your strong opinion? Have you seen him in
concert? Tell us what you thought.

Highlights of the 17 Dudamel concerts I've attended:

• Messiaen: Turangalîla-symphonie, w/ Jean-Yves Thibaudet (pf),
Cynthia Millar (ondes Martenot), LA Phil 2010
• Berlioz: Symphonie fantastique, LA Phil 2008
• Mahler: Symphony No. 5, Simón Bolívar SO 2012

Lowlights:

• Mozart: Symphony No. 38 'Prague', LA Phil 2010
• Mahler: Symphony No. 3 w/ Simón Bolívar SO, LA Phil 2012
• Brahms: German Requiem (77 minutes!), LA Phil 2011

And a lot in the middle: Beethoven 9, Prokofiev PC 1 w/ Trpceski, etc.

[Oscar]

On Jan 29, 12:04 pm, Herman wrote:
>
> I think a good Haydn symphony would be a better a piece to judge what a conductor can achieve. Of course there's no way Dudamel is ever going to record a Haydn symphony.

He's 32. No reason to think he won't record one for commercial
exploitation in the future. He's going to be around for a long time,
probably another 20 years in LA. He just started a family. Salonen
waited to leave till his kids finished high school in Santa Monica.

[Thornhill]

In fairness, I doubt DG would be willing to pay for a disc of Haydn
symphonies. When was the last time any were recorded on the Yellow
Label? mid-1990s? Heck, same might be true for Archiv.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:5450f774-2486-4577-ada2-
a5b8bf...@ro7g2000pbb.googlegroups.com:

Amen to that, brother. It's mostly purty gurlz and studly guyz these days.
(Or should that be, "theze dayz"?) "Musicianship"? Dawk, whutz that?

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Oscar <oscaredwar...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:0093d309-4374-418f-b03b-27418c5b01d4
@r10g2000pbd.googlegroups.com:

> On Nov 7 2012, 9:10�am, Mark S wrote:
>>
>> Get on the bus or get run over.
>
> Musical teleology, get used to it.

Unfortunately, the "bus drivers" who are running the business end of the
classical music industry these days are like this unfortunate fellow:

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/MTA-Bus-Crash-Madison-Avenue-East-
Harlem-Bus-Driver-Slumped-Over-Wheel-188767521.html

[Matthew B. Tepper]

John Thomas <abras...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:e9a6fcc1-8e92-4570-83ca-be4c40825094
@pp8g2000pbb.googlegroups.com:

> I doubt that any recording released today is "better" than all previous
> ones. The classical record divisions could save themselves and us a lot
of
> money by confining themselves to re-releases in improved sound from their
> back catalogues. Gus Dudamel can switch to driving a bus for all I care.

It was just a few years ago that a classical-music-magazine editor, based
in Cincinnati and with a surname which appropriate rhymes with "loon,"
eructed his mighty opinion that crackly old mono recurdings were less
interesting than brand spanking-new ones, as for example those by his local
conductor, whom he held in much higher regard than all of those boring old
dead guys. Which led me to the following:

Q. What's the difference between the pope and Donald Vroon?

A. The pope worships Jesus Christ. Vroon worships Jesús Lopez Cobos.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

arri bachrach <abach...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:69556a85-a68c-4411-83df-c115f46d1641
@w3g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:

> most 'great' and even just good music has been recorded many times by
> various artists and orchestras. There would have to be some speciasl
> about a new recording to make it worthwile to purchse.

Yep, and I'm just not seeing (or hearing) it these days. That's why most of
my purchases in the last year have been historicals and/or slightly offbeat
repertoire. (All right, does anybody know which *other* requiem I buy in
every recording known to me? My sixth recording of it is on its way now.)

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Oscar <oscaredwar...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:7d7bf849-4512-4da3-88a6-5957205ed121
@i2g2000pbi.googlegroups.com:

> But Dudamel wasn't even the highest-paid conductor in town in 2010,
> his first full calendar year in LA (figures include salary and
> benefits):
> ��Gustavo Dudamel: $985,363 (Los Angeles Philharmonic)
> ��James Conlon: $993,696 (LA Opera)

Isn't Conlon doing a lot more administrative stuff than Dudamel?

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Oscar <oscaredwar...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in

news:24eb3cfb-2d51-4fd5...@sk1g2000pbb.googlegroups.com:

Stanislaw Skrowaczewski raised his daughters in Minneapolis, which may be
part of the reason he stayed there so long.

[Mark S]

On Jan 29, 1:07 pm, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Salonen waited to leave till his kids finished high school in Santa Monica.

Why not raise them in Compton?

Salonen - just another white elitist who opted to live in a city which
is 77% white, the kind of city that drives "my Hispanic girl friend
has a hot bod" Oscar crazy with its lily-white demographics.

Surprised he mentioned it.

[Gerard]

Matthew B. Tepper <oy�@earthlink.net> typed:

> John Thomas <abras...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in
> news:e9a6fcc1-8e92-4570-83ca-be4c40825094
> @pp8g2000pbb.googlegroups.com:
>
> > I doubt that any recording released today is "better" than all
> > previous ones. The classical record divisions could save
> > themselves and us a lot of money by confining themselves to
> > re-releases in improved sound from their back catalogues. Gus
> > Dudamel can switch to driving a bus for all I care.
>
> It was just a few years ago that a classical-music-magazine editor,
> based in Cincinnati and with a surname which appropriate rhymes with
> "loon," eructed his mighty opinion that crackly old mono recurdings
> were less interesting than brand spanking-new ones, as for example
> those by his local conductor, whom he held in much higher regard than
> all of those boring old dead guys. Which led me to the following:
>
> Q. What's the difference between the pope and Donald Vroon?
>

> A. The pope worships Jesus Christ. Vroon worships Jes�s Lopez Cobos.

Didn't we see this already 382 times?

[Gerard]

Matthew B. Tepper <oy�@earthlink.net> typed:

> arri bachrach <abach...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in
> news:69556a85-a68c-4411-83df-c115f46d1641
> @w3g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
>
> > most 'great' and even just good music has been recorded many times
> > by various artists and orchestras. There would have to be some
> > speciasl about a new recording to make it worthwile to purchse.
>
> Yep, and I'm just not seeing (or hearing) it these days. That's why
> most of my purchases in the last year have been historicals and/or
> slightly offbeat repertoire. (All right, does anybody know which
> *other* requiem I buy in every recording known to me? My sixth
> recording of it is on its way now.)

Requiem for a duck.

http://www.canspice.org/2004/11/13/requiem-for-a-duck/

[Mark S]

On Jan 29, 1:15 pm, Thornhill <seth.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 29, 3:04 pm, Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Le mardi 29 janvier 2013 20:59:29 UTC+1, Herman a écrit :
>
> > > As to the OP question. No I don't think I need yet another Mahler 9.
>
> > And the reason why is I don't think Mahler 9 is the conductor's or orchestra's ultimate test (certainly not in studio conditions).
>
> > I think a good Haydn symphony would be a better a piece to judge what a conductor can achieve. Of course there's no way Dudamel is ever going to record a Haydn symphony.
>
> In fairness, I doubt DG would be willing to pay for a disc of Haydn
> symphonies.

I doubt that DG is paying the full ride on the discs Dudamel is making
with his youth orchestra. I imagine they're not a union/contracted
orchestra, so they're cheaper on that front. And I wouldn't be
surprised if non-DG promoters of Dudamel are helping to underwrite the
costs of those recordings.

[Oscar]

On Jan 29, 11:38 am, Mark S wrote:
>
> I actually attended that outdoor concert at the Verizon Center. Well,
> half of it. It was 90-something degrees outside, the venue is a dump
> and the sound system is mediocre.

'Sound systems' for outdoor amplification of large-scale symphonic
music are universally mediocre. Turkey shoots have better acoustics.

> We left after the 7th, which was unexceptional.
>
> Of course, your "point" (as if there is ever a point to your posts) is
> to take a swipe at the Pacific Symphony (and by extension, Orange
> County) because they and it are not LA.

My point was very clear. Here it is again:

On Jan 29, 11:02 am, Oscar wrote:
>
> Maybe the question should be: in the past four years, why haven't
> _you_ made the 50-mile trip north to take in one of the world's
> greatest concert halls and judge for yourself the Music Director at
> the head of the world's largest-budgeted classical music organization

> ($96.9 million in 2011)? ... Why not make your mind up for yourself
> the old-fashioned way?

And then I posted some German critics' opinions of Dudamel's Mahler 9,
the work in question.

A secondary point referenced your seeming incuriosity about this whole
Dudamel character/hype/propaganda. For such a self-proclaimed (again
and again and again) rigorous skeptic, one would think you would make
it a point, classical fan that you are, to check him out for yourself.
Besides, next time you have a job interview with, say, the Cleveland
Orchestra, you will have something to talk about. You know, along the
lines of, 'Boy, I went to see Dudamel — man, he _really_ is not good,
totally under-rehearsed. And those ritardandos! I don't know what Deb
Borda was thinking! Sure, LA is the Latino nerve center of North
America, but arts organizations really sidling up to their existing
donor base and striving to sell symphonic music as a luxury item. I
would have done yadda yadda instead, which would have freed up budget
and allowed us to increase the donor base yadda yadda...'

Isn't that type of knee-jerk
> bias just another example of what you just called "the old fat and
> happy argument?"

Hardly. Unlike you with Dudamel, I have seen Carl St. Clair and the
Pacific Symphony. Once, years ago. Not bad, but nothing special. No
burning reason to go back for the sole purpose of seeing St. Clair
lead the Pacifiers. I live a hop/skip/jump from Disney Hall, and the
medium is the message. Half the reason I go to concerts is just to sit
and listen in that stunning hall. The other half, of course, is that I
am I'm entering my peak Don Draper years, and I'm hoping to get
'discovered' in the food court by a big-shot producer. ,

Besides, last summer the Segerstroms hosted a big Mitt Romney
fundraiser in _their_ concert hall. Why would _you_ of all people
support that?

Henry T. Segerstrom political donations:

• Romney Victory Inc - $25,000 on 6/22/2012
• RickPerry.org - $2,500 on 9/15/2011
• California Republican Party - $10,000 on 11/23/2010
• California Republican Party - $10,000 on 11/23/2010
• Fiorina Victory Committee (Calif. gubernatorial) - $30,400 on
8/12/2010

> As far as the PSO under Carl St Clair, no, they don't record for DG.
> But they have recorded for Sony Classical. Not the old warhorses
> Dudamel seems intent on recording in LA and elsewhere, but music by
> composers like Takemitsu and Goldenthal. On smaller labels like Koch,
> they've recorded music by Foss, Corigliano, Danielpour and Villa-
> Lobos. Their latest recording - released last October on Orange
> Mountain - was the world-premiere recording of Philip Glass' "The
> Passion of Ramakrishna."

Good for Carl! I like new music, but Glass, Corigliano, Danielpour are
not my cuppa.

> Granted, not adventurous music like Mahler 9 and the Eroica like DG is
> recording in LA (or with Dudamel's youth orchestra) these days, but,
> what the hell!

You're being willfully obtuse, Mark. Really surprised by this. Such a
refined skeptic and well-rounded (admitted, alleged) 138 IQ thinker.
Let me explain: the reasoning behind the 'intent' of Dudamel's DG
recording projects is based on his large young fan base. Yoakum,
Texas's St. Clair is Dudamel's elder by 27 years. With his ten-gallon-
hat, he is probably a foot taller than 5'5"/165cm Dudamel, too. There
are a lot of kids not only going to concerts for the first time
because Dudamel is the conductor, but there are also many being turned
on to serious music, period, on account of his involvement in YOLA
(Youth Orchestra LA). After-concert gift shop CD sales probably number
a couple thousand every season. iTunes downloads are several thousand
more, I'd imagine. Whether you like it or not, Dude's DG CD's are
these kids' imprint versions of Beethoven 5, Tchaikovsky 5, Rite of
Spring, etc.

Like you say:

On Nov 7 2012, 9:10 am, Mark S wrote:
>
> Get on the bus or get run over.

As far as
> your taking pot-shots at the career of Carl St Clair, I'd point out that
> he is one of the handful of conductors who has been entrusted with
> conducting Wagner's Ring for video release. Maybe that's a project
> that's in Dudamel's distant future (nah, probably not).

Why not? He's 32. Maybe he will develop a Wagner fixation. Happens to
the best of us.

But then,
> St Clair was only a Bernstein protege. He was - in fact - the conductor
> who led Bernstein's own ''Arias and Barcarolles'' on Bernstein's final
> concert at Tanglewood, which was released on DG CD (minus St Clair's
> contribution, of course).

What are St. Clair's must-hear recordings? <no sarcasm, I ask out of
ignorance>

> Compared to your boy Dudamel, what would St Clair know about Mahler,
> or Beethoven, for that matter?

My boy?? Garçon? Typical Stenroos. You have not read the criticism I
have posted over the years. Like I said, 'I'm just the messenger.'

> Next, you'll be taking St Clair to task for sticking with the Pacific
> Symphony for 20 years, rather than hopping into the jet stream and
> getting himself a "real career" as a conductor.

One way to look at it. Another is why would a professional conductor
want to stay in comfortable, sunny, suburban coastal Southern
California for 20 years leading a provincial orchestra when he could
be in Chattanooga? After all, Robert Bernhardt was conductor and
artistic director there for 20 years, leaving in 2011.

[Oscar]

On Jan 29, 1:15 pm, Thornhill wrote:
>
> > I think a good Haydn symphony would be a better a piece to judge what
> > a conductor can achieve. Of course there's no way Dudamel is ever going
> > to record a Haydn symphony.
>
> In fairness, I doubt DG would be willing to pay for a disc of Haydn
> symphonies. When was the last time any were recorded on the Yellow
> Label? mid-1990s? Heck, same might be true for Archiv.

EMI released Rattle's deadly versions of Symphonies 88-92 (with
Sinfonia Concertante) with BPO in 2007 http://tiny.cc/f2zorw

[Oscar]

On Jan 29, 1:23 pm, Mark S wrote:
>
> >Salonen waited to leave till his kids finished high school in Santa Monica.
>
> Why not raise them in Compton?

Well, if Compton is not even safe for blacks anymore http://tiny.cc/eb0orw
and the racial terrorism there is Mexican-on-black (Mexican as in
Mexican Mafia-directed) you know something really is not right in
Dodge City.

> Salonen - just another white elitist who opted to live in a city which
> is 77% white, the kind of city that drives "my Hispanic girl friend
> has a hot bod" Oscar crazy with its lily-white demographics.
>
> Surprised he mentioned it.

You're are awful sensitive there, buddyboy. I don't know how Salonen
thinks politically, do you? Did he vote last year for Sauli Niinistoe,
the first conservative president in Finland in 50 years, elected last
year and defeating an openly gay candidate, no less, after twelve
years with female head of state? I don't know how Salonen voted. But
if he were as obnoxious, obstreperous, unrelenting, and Alinsky-fied
as you in his political 'persuasion', then I would have no problem
pointing out his hypocrisies. And there is no bigger hypocrisy than
where a man _chooses_ to lay his head and raise his brood when he is
all about so-called progressive values, wealth redistribution, equal
opportunity & affirmative action — tell me again your daughter's
school's Hispanic head count, out of 3000 kids and with 33% of County
population (I won't even ask about the African-American count)? If
Salonen toes your line, bring him on!

[John Wiser]

"Gerard" <ghendriks...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f45b$51083e17$5356543a$29...@cache70.multikabel.net...
> Matthew B. Tepper <oyþ@earthlink.net> typed:

>> A. The pope worships Jesus Christ. Vroon worships Jesús Lopez Cobos.

>
> Didn't we see this already 382 times?
>

It wasn't funny the first time already.

My theory is that Vroon fired ex-reviewer Tepper
for overuse of personal pronouns.

jdw

[Thornhill]

Isn't this Mahler recording also the first CD release with Dudamel/
LAPO/DG (so I'm not counting DVD/Blu-ray and download only)? That
shows just how tepid DG is to spend the money it costs to record an
American orchestra.

[Thornhill]

DG ≠ EMI.

[Oscar]

On Jan 29, 3:01 pm, Thornhill wrote:
>
> > > In fairness, I doubt DG would be willing to pay for a disc of Haydn
> > > symphonies. When was the last time any were recorded on the Yellow
> > > Label? mid-1990s? Heck, same might be true for Archiv.
>
> > EMI released Rattle's deadly versions of Symphonies 88-92 (with
> > Sinfonia Concertante) with BPO in 2007http://tiny.cc/f2zorw
>
> DG ≠ EMI.

I know, but that was the last full-price new release 'major label'
issue of Haydn Symphonies. Six years ago is a long time was my ill-
stated point. Howard Shelley and Marc Minkowski both recorded sets of
the London Symphonies in 2009 and 2010, respectively.

[John Thomas]

On Jan 29, 2:38 pm, "John Wiser" <ceec...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> My theory is that Vroon fired ex-reviewer Tepper
> for overuse of personal pronouns.
>
> jdw

:)

[Oscar]

On Jan 29, 1:23 pm, Mark S wrote:
>
> >Salonen waited to leave till his kids finished high school in Santa Monica.
>
> Why not raise them in Compton?

Dudamel does not live in Santa Monica (where the public schools are
decent), but in the City of LA. In 2011, he paid $1,850,000 for 2665
square feet of living space in the Hollywood Hills, 3 bedrooms, 4
bathrooms. Previous owner paid annual property taxes of $17,150 in
2010. Btw, the Dudamels picked a 79.5% non-Hispanic white neighborhood
in which to settle, in the area right beneath the famous Griffith Park
Observatory http://tiny.cc/cmcprw Should they choose to remain there,
their kids will matriculate at the mecca of Mensa, Hollywood High
School. Go Sheiks!

Send yr fan mail to:

Gustavo Dudamel
5555 Green Oak Drive
Los Angeles, CA 90068

[Matthew B. Tepper]

John Thomas <abras...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following

letters to be typed in news:94571ca3-bda7-440d-b773-c380acec3b57
@y5g2000pbi.googlegroups.com:

I wrote for American Record Guide around 1983-5 (I have all the issues in
question, but haven't unpacked them yet) when the editor was Doris Chalfin.
In 1985 the magazine was sold, and Grace Wolf became editor. Donald Vroon
was just another critic in those days.

Grace didn't fire me; if anything, I stayed with Doris because I liked her.
When she left, I left too, and became a contributor to Digital Audio, for a
reason which even Mr. Wiser may understand: DA paid; ARG didn't.

Don Vroon took over ARG in 1987, by which time I was long gone.

I got the gig at Digital Audio after sending in photocopies of my reviews
from ARG. Like all of Wayne Green's mags in those days, DA paid, and paid
WELL -- $75 for a regular review, $200 for a feature. Lou Waryncia edited
my copy with a light hand, and I liked that. He was replaced with David
Vernier, who pruned my text down to short, choppy sentences.

Eventually, though, the payments got sparser and slower, and I eventually
gave up. While it lasted, I got something like $700 for my reviews, which
almost paid for my first CD player, a Technics SL-P8, for which I paid $800
at the Donaldson's department store in downtown Minneapolis in March 1984.

I did send my ARG and DA clips to Fanfare editor Joel Flegler, who replied
"Thanks, but no thanks." My working theory is that he didn't think my
writing was good enough

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:8a9c042c-5af9-4956-b3ba-a2feafc8b1f4
@d8g2000pbm.googlegroups.com:

What's wrong with having a Hispanic girlfriend? I was dating a very nice,
and rather plump, self-described "Tex-Max" lady about ten years ago.

[Gerard]

Matthew B. Tepper <oy�@earthlink.net> typed:

So that's why you write here (since years) only about ducks, and "it is in my
database", and "I bought that at Pico's Boulevard"?

[Gerard]

Matthew B. Tepper <oyþ@earthlink.net> typed:

> Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:8a9c042c-5af9-4956-b3ba-a2feafc8b1f4
> @d8g2000pbm.googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Jan 29, 1:07 pm, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Salonen waited to leave till his kids finished high school in
> > > Santa Monica.
> >
> > Why not raise them in Compton?
> >
> > Salonen - just another white elitist who opted to live in a city
> > which is 77% white, the kind of city that drives "my Hispanic girl
> > friend has a hot bod" Oscar crazy with its lily-white demographics.
> >
> > Surprised he mentioned it.
>
> What's wrong with having a Hispanic girlfriend? I was dating a very
> nice, and rather plump, self-described "Tex-Max" lady about ten years
> ago.

So? Is that a definition of "not being wrong"?

[Oscar]

On Jan 30, 1:04 am, Gerard wrote:
>
> So that's why you write here (since years) only about ducks, and "it is in my
> database", and "I bought that at Pico's Boulevard"?

Pico is a boulevard in West Los Angeles. Pío Pico was the last Mexican
governor of Alta California back in 1845/46. He had a face only a
mother could love http://tiny.cc/gcwprw but a nice crop of
Knappertsbuschian hair. As far as I know, he did not own any ducks.

[Herman]

But did Mr Pico brag about his hot bod girlfriend?

[Oscar]

On Jan 30, 4:23 am, Herman wrote:
>
> But did Mr Pico brag about his hot bod girlfriend?

Excuse me — that's SEÑOR Pico to you. An university-dlploma'd European
such as yourself, fluent in Latin, French, and canonical English
literature, you _don't_ know about the early Californios? The settling
of California is the the largest peacetime migration in the history of
the world! Scholars estimate that in the fateful year of 1846, with
Pico still in charge, the:

• Non-Indian population of California in 1846 was fewer than 8,000
• Indian population of California in 1846 was ~150,000
• Chinese population of California in 1848 was exactly 7

• Percentage of California's population that was male in 1850 was 92
percent
• Chinese population of California in 1852 was 11,794 — exactly 7
women among them

• Average daily wage for laborers on the Erie Canal (New York) in
1848: $0.88
• Average daily earnings for California placer miners in 1848: $20.00

So, herm, there it is: people were scarce all-around in this huge
state back in '46, and where they were found it was never not a
sausage fest. Ol' Pío wasn't gettin' any he wasn't paying for, I'm
afraid. And then he lost it all.

[Dufus]

>On Jan 29, 1:02 pm, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:

The 2 German Mahler 9 reviews you cite dont count fo something here ?!

Dufus

[Oscar]

On Jan 30, 5:40 am, Dufus wrote:
>
> The 2 German Mahler 9 reviews you cite dont count fo something here ?!

I've pointed that out a few times already in this thread. No matter.
I've seen the Dudamel's LA Phil M9 twice, and there are at least two
German critics and who agree with my report and have published similar
plaudits. The second time was definitely better than the first, which
I thought was good, average-ish. What I remember about the second
concert was that beautiful, long first movement arc so artfully,
seamlessly executed, and if the Ländler was still a bit flat-footed
for my taste, the Rondo-Burleske was even more locked-in with saber-
toothed strings and Joseph Pereira holding a virtuosic timpani clinic
near the end. Dudamel made the Adagio stand out by holding back — that
is, vis-a-vis January 2011. The taffy was not pulled for all its
worth, and the impact was resolutely inward-looking, human, not the
ruinous self-conscious/quasi-theatrical/some-might-say-ego-driven
effect he sometimes goes for. Even so, both times the strings played
world-class. Yes, I want to hear the new CD, but I'm in no hurry. Like
Mr. Kasimer, I'll pick it up when the price is right.

Thanks for getting this discussion back on track. It's funny how all
manner of ad hominems, willful obtuseness, and distraction tactics are
flung like so much bull pucky by those who have never seen Dudamel in
concert, let alone seen him conduct Mahler, yet want to have a
discussion under the title 'Does Anyone Care?' about his new CD. These
are our 'critical thinkers'.

[Mark S]

On Jan 29, 10:13 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I did send my ARG and DA clips to Fanfare editor Joel Flegler, who replied
> "Thanks, but no thanks."  My working theory is that he didn't think my
> writing was good enough

You certainly didn't miss out on making any money from Fanfare. I
hired Bill Zagorski to write blurbs and articles for MHS while he was
also writing for Fanfare. Fanfare paid him $2 for a normal-length
review, $5 for a feature. He made considerably more than that writing
for MHS.

[Mark S]

On Jan 29, 10:13 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>

> What's wrong with having a Hispanic girlfriend?

Nothing wrong with that. I had a girlfriend in NYC who was Cuban.

It's just crass to pull an Oscar by posting in a public forum that you
have a "hot-bodied Hispanic girlfriend."

[Mark S]

On Jan 30, 6:42 am, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for getting this discussion back on track.  It's funny how all
> manner of ad hominems, willful obtuseness, and distraction tactics are
> flung like so much bull pucky by those who have never seen Dudamel in
> concert, let alone seen him conduct Mahler, yet want to have a
> discussion under the title 'Does Anyone Care?' about his new CD.

While I agree that the best way to judge any performer is to hear them
live, that certainly cannot be a requirement when discussing
recordings. Were that so, none of us could discuss Furtwangler or
Toscanini, nor any of the hundreds of musicians who we will never have
a chance to hear in the concert hall.

I've not been to a Dudamel concert. I've seen two of his concerts from
LA - Mahler 1 & Gershwin. I wasn't impressed with either, especially
with his Mahler 1. Based on that Mahler 1, I hear no reason to explore
Dudamel's Mahler 9, especially when my live concert experiences of the
piece have included performances by Karajan/Berlin, Haitink/Cleveland,
Dohnanyi/Cleveland and Maazel/Cleveland. And that doesn't even
consider the many outstanding recordings of the piece that pre-date
Dudamel's. We are - after all - talking about a recording here.

Oscar wrote: "I have seen Carl St. Clair and the Pacific Symphony.

Once, years ago. Not bad, but nothing special. No burning reason to go
back for the sole purpose of seeing St. Clair lead the Pacifiers."

That about sums up my feelings about the LAPO under Dudamel. Not bad,
but nothing special. Except that I gave Dudamel two chances, while you
gave St Clair one.

Oscar wrote: "Yoakum, Texas's St. Clair is Dudamel's elder by 27

years. With his ten-gallon- hat, he is probably a foot taller than
5'5"/165cm Dudamel, too."

I'm surprised that a culturally sensitive person like yourself would
miss the opportunity to give equal treatment to Dudamel as you do St.
Clair. Surely, your mention of St Clair's ten-gallon hat should have
been complemented by your mention of Dudamel's sombrero.

BTW - Dudamel may well be taller than St Clair, even without the
sombrero.

The LAPO is a world-class band. At this point, their conductor is not
a top-rank conductor. In fact, he's a few significant rungs down the
ladder from Maestro St Clair.

[Mark S]

On Jan 30, 6:42 am, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've seen the Dudamel's LA Phil M9 twice. The second time was definitely better than the first, which
> I thought was good, average-ish. [snip] Yes, I want to hear the new CD, but I'm in no hurry. Like

> Mr. Kasimer, I'll pick it up when the price is right.

So after all your posturing, you basically agree with me: you're in no
rush to get your copy of Dudamel's Mahler 9 on DG.

And why should you be, when - as you pointed out - one of the
performances you saw was "average-ish?" Not many people want to spend
money on CD performances that are "average-ish," a term I certainly
would never use to describe any of the live performances I've ever
heard of the Mahler 9, and certainly not a term that anyone would
apply to any of the currently recommended recordings of the piece. But
here you are, using the term "average-ish" to describe Señor
Sombrero's (that's Dudamel - must mention the hats!) performances. Go
figure.

Seems that - like me - you don't really care if you hear it or not, or
at least not before the price drops below the price of a McD's
hamburger.

[O]

In article
<ad1ec1bd-b6bb-4cdd...@q16g2000pbt.googlegroups.com>,
Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Jan 29, 10:13爌m, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > What's wrong with having a Hispanic girlfriend?
>
> Nothing wrong with that. I had a girlfriend in NYC who was Cuban.
>
> It's just crass to pull an Oscar by posting in a public forum that you
> have a "hot-bodied Hispanic girlfriend."

Yes, and now everyone will want one.

-Owen

[Mark S]

On Jan 30, 8:37 am, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article
> <ad1ec1bd-b6bb-4cdd-abd1-060939edf...@q16g2000pbt.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > On Jan 29, 10:13 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy @earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > What's wrong with having a Hispanic girlfriend?
>
> > Nothing wrong with that. I had a girlfriend in NYC who was Cuban.
>
> > It's just crass to pull an Oscar by posting in a public forum that you
> > have a "hot-bodied Hispanic girlfriend."
>
> Yes, and now everyone will want one.
>
> -Owen

The trick is to find one that already has a job, a nice apartment that
we can move into and a big-screen HDTV...at least if we want to Keep
Up With The Oscars of the hot-bodied girlfriend world.

[O]

In article
<cbca4dbf-73a6-4c33...@d2g2000pbd.googlegroups.com>,

Even if I could find one like that, my wife wouldn't let me keep her.

-Owen

[Mark S]

On Jan 30, 6:42 am, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>

> Thanks for getting this discussion back on track.  It's funny how all
> manner of ad hominems, willful obtuseness, and distraction tactics are
> flung like so much bull pucky by those who have never seen Dudamel in
> concert, let alone seen him conduct Mahler, yet want to have a
> discussion under the title 'Does Anyone Care?' about his new CD. These
> are our 'critical thinkers'.

Now, now, Oscar.

I think you're just upset that those same critical thinkers (ie: moi)
spent the better part of 2012 telling you that Obama was going to win
in a landslide. In fact, I recall writing that the only question was
the length of Obama's coattails, which were quite long, as it turns
out.

You can look it up. I'm sure you have my posts on the subject filed
and cataloged on your hard drive as part of the burgeoning file of
"Stenroosisms" you keep at hand for possible use in the future.
Surely, had Romney somehow won or stolen the election, you would have
spent the past two months littering rmcr with my posts predicting the
Obama landslide.

BTW - how did that election work out for you, Oscar? Not so much, huh?

Right now, you must be thinking, "golly, if Stenroos was so dead right
about the election, he might be right about Dudamel...and even
Republicans!"

That's gotta sit in your craw.

[Mark S]

On Jan 30, 8:47 am, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article

> <cbca4dbf-73a6-4c33-b145-dceb74826...@d2g2000pbd.googlegroups.com>,

>
>
>
> Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 30, 8:37 am, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <ad1ec1bd-b6bb-4cdd-abd1-060939edf...@q16g2000pbt.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > > Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jan 29, 10:13 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy @earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > What's wrong with having a Hispanic girlfriend?
>
> > > > Nothing wrong with that. I had a girlfriend in NYC who was Cuban.
>
> > > > It's just crass to pull an Oscar by posting in a public forum that you
> > > > have a "hot-bodied Hispanic girlfriend."
>
> > > Yes, and now everyone will want one.
>
> > > -Owen
>
> > The trick is to find one that already has a job, a nice apartment that
> > we can move into and a big-screen HDTV...at least if we want to Keep
> > Up With The Oscars of the hot-bodied girlfriend world.
>
> Even if I could find one like that, my wife wouldn't let me keep her.
>
> -Owen

...and that's a shame. It's part of that whole marriage contract
crapola.

As Oscar has pointed out in the past, he doesn't have to deal with the
marriage crap because it just so happens that his hot-bodied
girlfriend doesn't want to get married. And being a gentleman, he
accedes to her wishes.

Why buy the cow (girlfriend) when you can get the milk (sex) for free?

[Mark S]

On Jan 29, 1:43 pm, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > I actually attended that outdoor concert at the Verizon Center. Well,
> > half of it. It was 90-something degrees outside, the venue is a dump
> > and the sound system is mediocre.
>
> 'Sound systems' for outdoor amplification of large-scale symphonic
> music are universally mediocre. Turkey shoots have better acoustics.

I guess you've never been to the Blossom Music Center.

[Herman]

Le mercredi 30 janvier 2013 14:10:47 UTC+1, Oscar a écrit :
> On Jan 30, 4:23 am, Herman wrote:
>
> >
>
> > But did Mr Pico brag about his hot bod girlfriend?
>
>
>
> Excuse me — that's SEÑOR Pico to you. An university-dlploma'd European
>
> such as yourself, fluent in Latin, French, and canonical English
>
> literature, you _don't_ know about the early Californios?

Occasionally, I have to admit, you're a hoot.

[Herman]

I have had one, it's not worth the hassle.

[Mark S]

On Jan 29, 1:43 pm, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:

> last summer the Segerstroms hosted a big Mitt Romney
> fundraiser in _their_ concert hall. Why would _you_ of all people
> support that?
>
> Henry T. Segerstrom political donations:
>
> • Romney Victory Inc - $25,000 on 6/22/2012
> • RickPerry.org - $2,500 on 9/15/2011
> • California Republican Party - $10,000 on 11/23/2010
> • California Republican Party - $10,000 on 11/23/2010
> • Fiorina Victory Committee (Calif. gubernatorial) - $30,400 on
> 8/12/2010

Billionaires can spend their money how they will.

Sometimes, they spend it on worthwhile ventures like performing arts
centers.

Other times, they waste their version of chump change on doomed-to-
failure political campaigns.

I'll cut Henry Segerstrom some slack - the amount he's spent on
Republican candidates over the past few years wouldn't supply the
toilet paper to the concert halls he's built in Costa Mesa. He donated
the land the PAC is built on, as well as contributing $40-50million to
date towards its construction. You don't see him throwing away
millions on losing politicians a la Sheldon Adelson.

BTW - if you're going to go after rich Republicans who have concert
halls named after them, why spare Walt Disney? After all, according to
Neal Gabler's "Walt Disney - The Triumph of the American Imagination,"
Walt believed that hiring African Americans would "have spoiled the
illusion at Disneyland." This is a guy who held membership in an
executive organization that was famously hostile to Jews. A guy who
contacted the FBI and the red-hunting HCUA to finger several union
activists as Communists.

>>Another is why would a professional conductorwant to stay in comfortable, sunny, suburban coastal Southern California for 20 years leading a provincial orchestra when he could be in Chattanooga?<<

You can check out St Clair's bio at Wikipedia. He's held numerous
positions around the world.

The PSO has served as his based of operations. He lives in Laguna
Beach.

I think one reason Carl St Clair has stayed with the PSO for such a
long time is the gratitude he felt for the outpouring of sympathy he
received from the PSO and the OC audience after his only 18-month-old
only son, Cole, drowned in their swimming pool in July, 1999. His wife
was having a diabetic seizure at the time and wasn't able save him.

Those kinds of life experiences might temper one's career ambitions
and decisions, without at all saying a thing about a person's
abilities in their chosen field. In fact, I would think that many
people who suffered the kind of loss St Clair suffered would get as
far away from the scene of such a tragedy as quickly as possible. St
Clair's staying with the PSO for 14 years since that tragedy speaks
very well of his maturity and his humanity, IMO.

[Kip Williams]

Mark S wrote, On 1/30/13 12:36 PM:

> Why buy the cow (girlfriend) when you can get the milk (sex) for free?

I'll take that as an excuse to dodge back 2/3 of the way to being
on-topic! It's music; it's recorded; and maybe some day it will be in
the classical canon along with smutty Mozart. Ladies and gentlemen,
Benny Bell!

http://archive.org/download/BennyBell/BennyBell-WhyBuyaCowWhenMilkisCheapdouble-entendrepartyrecord1940s.mp3
Why Buy a Cow When Milk is Cheap?

http://archive.org/download/BennyBell/BennyBell-ShavingCreamdouble-entendrepartyrecord.mp3
Shaving Cream! (the definitive Benny Bell request)

http://archive.org/download/BennyBell/BennyBell-EverybodyWantsMyFannydouble-entendrepartyrecord.mp3
Everybody Wants My Fanny! (my personal favorite)

http://archive.org/details/BennyBell
And many more!


Kip W

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Oscar <oscaredwar...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:5f9ec00b-8878-407c-aea4-7527cda201b4
@sk1g2000pbb.googlegroups.com:

[Drivel from the fake Eltjo snipped]

> Pico is a boulevard in West Los Angeles. Pío Pico was the last Mexican
> governor of Alta California back in 1845/46. He had a face only a mother
> could love http://tiny.cc/gcwprw but a nice crop of Knappertsbuschian hair.
> As far as I know, he did not own any ducks.

http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/pico.htm

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:d1eb2d2c-28da-4570-b608-
aa6818...@qi8g2000pbb.googlegroups.com:

I vaguely recall having written a couple of things for MHS maybe thirty
years ago. Don't remember whether I got anything for them, though.

Oh, I knew that Fanfare paid next to bupkes. I was just interested to see
whether I was good enough, and we pretty much know the answer to that one!
Oh, all right, I admit; I wanted some of the cool freebie review copies.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following letters

to be typed in news:ad1ec1bd-b6bb-4cdd-abd1-060939edf2a5
@q16g2000pbt.googlegroups.com:

> On Jan 29, 10:13爌m, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> What's wrong with having a Hispanic girlfriend?
>
> Nothing wrong with that. I had a girlfriend in NYC who was Cuban.
>
> It's just crass to pull an Oscar by posting in a public forum that you
> have a "hot-bodied Hispanic girlfriend."

I can't say whether anybody would have thought Mona was "hot-bodied"; she was
in fact rather plump, but that did not make her unattractive in my eyes.

I'm probably better off not musing about ex-girlfriends these days. ;--)

[Gerard]

Matthew B. Tepper <oyþ@earthlink.net> typed:
>

> I was just interested
> to see whether I was good enough, and we pretty much know the answer
> to that one!

Exactly. We can see what you write here.

[Oscar]

On Jan 30, 8:12 am, Mark S wrote:
>
> While I agree that the best way to judge any performer is to hear them
> live, that certainly cannot be a requirement when discussing
> recordings. Were that so, none of us could discuss Furtwangler or
> Toscanini, nor any of the hundreds of musicians who we will never have
> a chance to hear in the concert hall.

Uh, thx for the memo??

> I've not been to a Dudamel concert. I've seen two of his concerts from
> LA - Mahler 1 & Gershwin. I wasn't impressed with either, especially
> with his Mahler 1.

That broadcast was from his _inaugural_ weekend as Music Director in
2009. You don't think a conductor grows into his band, and vice-versa,
as the years progress?? Tough crowd! One would think a former musician
of such refined abilities as you would know better. As with Mahler 9,
I've seen Dudamel perform Mahler 1 in two separate seasons. The second
time was eons better — at-large LA critic Richard Ginnell thought the
same in his Dudamel Mahler Project 2012 round-up in American Record
Guide. Ginnell attended all of the concerts last year, score in hand,
btw. His favorite was the Seventh, which I missed.

> ...first weekend of his Based on that Mahler 1, I hear no reason to explore

> Dudamel's Mahler 9, especially when my live concert experiences of the
> piece have included performances by Karajan/Berlin, Haitink/Cleveland,
> Dohnanyi/Cleveland and Maazel/Cleveland. And that doesn't even
> consider the many outstanding recordings of the piece that pre-date
> Dudamel's. We are - after all - talking about a recording here.
>
> Oscar wrote: "I have seen Carl St. Clair and the Pacific Symphony.
> Once, years ago. Not bad, but nothing special. No burning reason to go
> back for the sole purpose of seeing St. Clair lead the Pacifiers."
>
> That about sums up my feelings about the LAPO under Dudamel. Not bad,
> but nothing special. Except that I gave Dudamel two chances, while you
> gave St Clair one.

ONE??? 'Mark, you ignorant slut.'

Quite a display of shock & awe ignorance here. Did you know that the
Pacific Symphony broadcasts LIVE CONCERTS practically every Saturday
evening during the concert season? To the entire FIVE COUNTY region of
Southern California (and beyond)?? St. Clair and the Pacifiers are
heard by a potential audience of 14 million almost every week for
seven or so months of the year. I've heard countless live broadcasts
(some of which I actually listen to) over the years, but have only
been to Segerstrom once to see the orchestra for myself. I've given
them MANY chances. Buy a clue, Mark!! Or just turn on your radio.

<< The Saturday evening performances of Pacific Symphony's Classical
series concerts are broadcast live on our official classical radio
station, Classical KUSC. Popular radio personality Rich Capparela
hosts the broadcasts which include fascinating interviews with guest
artists and Symphony musicians during intermission.

KUSC-FM 91.5 - Los Angeles
KPSC-FM 88.5 - Palm Springs
KQSC-FM 88.7 - Santa Barbara
KDSC-FM 91.1 - Thousand Oaks
KESC-FM 99.7 - San Luis Obispo
...and online: http://www.kusc.org/pacificsymphony/index.aspx >>

Next broadcast: THIS SATURDAY 8 PM! Be there be square (southern
Orange County, it's a matter of course).

> Oscar wrote: "Yoakum, Texas's St. Clair is Dudamel's elder by 27
> years. With his ten-gallon- hat, he is probably a foot taller than
> 5'5"/165cm Dudamel, too."
>
> I'm surprised that a culturally sensitive person like yourself would
> miss the opportunity to give equal treatment to Dudamel as you do St.
> Clair. Surely, your mention of St Clair's ten-gallon hat should have
> been complemented by your mention of Dudamel's sombrero.

Hmmm...you're trying to be 'edgy' or just look like a tool? Sombreros
are a symbol of Mexico, not Venezuela. Some Texans wear big ten-gallon
hats http://tiny.cc/razqrw Carl St. Clair is from Yoakum, Texas — even
country singer Dwight Yoakam wears a ten-gallon hat and he's from
Bakersfield! http://tiny.cc/u9yqrw But no Venezuelans wear somberos.

> BTW - Dudamel may well be taller than St Clair, even without the
> sombrero.

Dudamel is 5' 5" (165 cm). I doubt it. WTF is this all about anyway
— 'Dudamel's sombrero'? Really??

>
> The LAPO is a world-class band. At this point, their conductor is not
> a top-rank conductor. In fact, he's a few significant rungs down the
> ladder from Maestro St Clair.

Based on two 'concerts' you watched with your cat, one from Dudamel's
first weekend as conductor of the LA Phil. Good lord. You need some
help. (Poor kitty...)

[Oscar]

On Jan 30, 11:23 am, Herman wrote:
>
> > > But did Mr Pico brag about his hot bod girlfriend?
>
> > Excuse me — that's SEÑOR Pico to you. An university-dlploma'd European
> > such as yourself, fluent in Latin, French, and canonical English
> > literature, you _don't_ know about the early Californios?
>
> Occasionally, I have to admit, you're a hoot.

Thx herm I try http://tiny.cc/3r0qrw

[Oscar]

On Jan 30, 7:50 am, Mark S wrote:
>
> > What's wrong with having a Hispanic girlfriend?
>
> Nothing wrong with that. I had a girlfriend in NYC who was Cuban.
>
> It's just crass to pull an Oscar by posting in a public forum that you
> have a "hot-bodied Hispanic girlfriend."

Just because you put something in quotes and allege I 'said' it does
not make it so, Mark. Devoted yogis with natural slender frames look
good. Can't help it!

[Oscar]

On Jan 30, 11:31 am, Herman wrote:
>
> > > It's just crass to pull an Oscar by posting in a public forum
> > > that you have a "hot-bodied Hispanic girlfriend."
>
> > Yes, and now everyone will want one.
>
> I have had one, it's not worth the hassle.

http://tiny.cc/q31qrw

[T. Esteban Ayala]

On Jan 30, 3:48 pm, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 30, 8:12 am, Mark S wrote:

> Hmmm...you're trying to be 'edgy' or just look like a tool? Sombreros
> are a symbol of Mexico, not Venezuela. Some Texans wear big ten-gallon

> hatshttp://tiny.cc/razqrwCarl St. Clair is from Yoakum, Texas — even

> country singer Dwight Yoakam wears a ten-gallon hat and he's from
> Bakersfield!http://tiny.cc/u9yqrwBut no Venezuelans wear somberos.

Just wanted to chime in here real quick. "Sombrero" doesn't
necessarily mean one of those dealies people in the US associate with
Mexicans. The Spanish word "sombrero" refers to just any ol' hat, not
just the "sombrero de vaquero" one can find at a place like Los 3
Hermanos or on any night at El Rodeo in Pico Rivera.

> Dudamel is 5' 5" (165 cm). I doubt it.

He's maybe 5'6 or so. He was shorter than me at any rate (about 5'9").
I know this because I had a pleasant and very unexpected run-in with
him in Little Tokyo a few months ago, during the weekend he was
conducting Oliver Knussen's Where the Wild Things Are. Very nice
person he was; my girlfriend and I invited him for coffee at the Senka
Cafe, which he very graciously accepted. One of the things that I
remember most about the incident was that he was carrying around a
long Rilakkuma pillow with him. Never asked him why, though I'm
guessing he must have bought it nearby as a gift for someone. Or maybe
he's super into all things kawaii.

As for his Mahler 9, I heard it in person last year. It was a very
good one from what I recall. Wouldn't mind hearing a CD of the
concert, though I've mostly lost my appetite for Mahler in the past
few years.

Dudamel is, like any musician, inconsistent. Some of the stuff he's
conducted has been dull or weird (like the recent performances of the
Beethoven piano concertos with Andsnes). But he also has led some
remarkable performances: Messiaen's Turangalila, Ravel's Mother Goose,
an excellent Beethoven Eroica, a scintillating Ginastera Piano
Concerto 1 with Sergio Tiempo, Stucky's Symphony, etc.

He's better than most conductors of the general, all-purpose sort
today. Give him 20 years or so and he'll be even better. Even
Furtwängler didn't really hit his stride, at least if his recordings
are any indication, until the late 1930s. So it's unfair to pick on
Dudamel for his youth.

I'll admit that the way he is marketed irks me. As if unbridled
"pasión" was the only thing Latin American musicians are capable of
expressing. But, hey, I guess if it sells tickets and keeps the
orchestra solvent, so be it. But, at least to me, there is a faint
whiff of the minstrel show in all that PR-speak that surrounds and
sometimes obscures his very real talent.

[Oscar]

On Jan 30, 8:33 am, Mark S wrote:
>
> > I've seen the Dudamel's LA Phil M9 twice. The second time was definitely better than the first, which
> > I thought was good, average-ish. [snip] Yes, I want to hear the new CD, but I'm in no hurry. Like
> > Mr. Kasimer, I'll pick it up when the price is right.
>
> So after all your posturing,

What do you mean, posturing??? Criticizing your weary 'Does Anyone
Care' nabob of negativity + ignorance spirit?? Please explain.

> you basically agree with me: you're in no rush to get your copy of
> Dudamel's Mahler 9 on DG.

Right. Day-of-release Amazon Prime delivery? No. Does this mean I
won't hear it soon? No. Figure it out.

> And why should you be, when - as you pointed out - one of the
> performances you saw was "average-ish?" Not many people want to spend
> money on CD performances that are "average-ish,"

And the other was superb. Gosh golly, do you even _read_ what I write,
or do you just pick apart what you want to 'attack' and proceed from
there? Btw, the 'good but average-ish' performance was the first time
Dudamel had led the work in LA, maybe ever. It was a warm-up for their
2011 European Tour — and it was 11 AM on a Friday morning. I was in
the top balcony in the last row against the wall, without coffee.
Maybe it was I who was feeling average-ish. As the old band Trapeze
used to sing, You are the music, we're just the band http://tiny.cc/wp1qrw

a term I certainly
> would never use to describe any of the live performances I've ever
> heard of the Mahler 9,

I also heard David Robertson and the Saint Louis Symphony Orchestra
play it in 2009, on the occasion of Robertson's 50th birthday. It was
not a 'great' performance. Good and serviceable, yes, but hardly much
more. The Rondo, especially, had problems, the Adagio was earthbound.
I was surprised, as I am such a fan of Robertson and SLSO.

and certainly not a term that anyone would
> apply to any of the currently recommended recordings of the piece. But
> here you are, using the term "average-ish"  to describe Señor
> Sombrero's (that's Dudamel - must mention the hats!) performances. Go
> figure.

Señor Sombrero — how old are you?? What next, Speedy Gonzalez??
http://tiny.cc/q01qrw Is this your way of heralding the news that
Hispanics in California are set to overtake the white population in
California in six months? http://tiny.cc/891qrw Tell us again the
Hispanic enrollment at your daughter's high school — it's 10% even
though 'they' number 33% of Orange County residents. (Blacks are
practically non-existant at Aliso Niguel High.) I bet 35 years ago you
were beside yourself with rage at images of racist Boston Southie
goons pelting school buses full of black kids with rocks. So where is
the progress? Did Jim Crow happen to sabotage a bus carburetor factory
down in Santa Ana? How can you stand it? Where do you draw the line?

> Seems that - like me - you don't really care if you hear it or not, or
> at least not before the price drops below the price of a McD's
> hamburger.

McRib is back! http://tiny.cc/dt2qrw

[Oscar]

On Jan 30, 4:39 pm, T. Esteban Ayala wrote:
>
> Just wanted to chime in here real quick. "Sombrero" doesn't
> necessarily mean one of those dealies people in the US associate with
> Mexicans.

I'm not the one calling Dudamel 'Señor Sombrero'. That's Mr. Stenroos.
I'm just blowing up his world with sarcasm. Dwight Yoakam is great in
concert, btw.

> > Dudamel is 5' 5" (165 cm). I doubt it.
>
> He's maybe 5'6 or so. He was shorter than me at any rate (about 5'9").
> I know this because I had a pleasant and very unexpected run-in with
> him in Little Tokyo a few months ago, during the weekend he was
> conducting Oliver Knussen's Where the Wild Things Are. Very nice
> person he was; my girlfriend and I invited him for coffee at the Senka
> Cafe, which he very graciously accepted. One of the things that I
> remember most about the incident was that he was carrying around a
> long Rilakkuma pillow with him. Never asked him why, though I'm
> guessing he must have bought it nearby as a gift for someone. Or maybe
> he's super into all things kawaii.

I ran into him at Amoeba last February as he escorted visiting
Venezuelans to the classical racks. Cool guy, what I expected.

> As for his Mahler 9, I heard it in person last year. It was a very
> good one from what I recall. Wouldn't mind hearing a CD of the
> concert, though I've mostly lost my appetite for Mahler in the past
> few years.

Same. Last year's Mahler Project put my fandom on ice for a while.

> Dudamel is, like any musician, inconsistent. Some of the stuff he's
> conducted has been dull or weird (like the recent performances of the
> Beethoven piano concertos with Andsnes)

Mozart Prague Symphony was ridiculously dull. Labadie visited to
conduct the LA Phil in the Jupiter and righted that, thankfully. Btw,
Bernard Labadie is a self-taught conductor. Maybe he's not 'worthy',
too.

> But he also has led some remarkable performances: Messiaen's
> Turangalila,

Was there. Terrific.

Ravel's Mother Goose,
> an excellent Beethoven Eroica, a scintillating Ginastera Piano
> Concerto 1 with Sergio Tiempo, Stucky's Symphony, etc.
>
> He's better than most conductors of the general, all-purpose sort
> today. Give him 20 years or so and he'll be even better. Even
> Furtwängler didn't really hit his stride, at least if his recordings
> are any indication, until the late 1930s. So it's unfair to pick on
> Dudamel for his youth.

Correct. No one is saying that he is beyond criticism. Calling his
whiffs and misses is justified as he is leading one the most high
profile orchestras in the Western hemisphere. But the simple-minded
attacks are nauseating. This was my favorite:

On Feb 7 2011, 10:03 am, Jeffrey Smith wrote:
>
> > > LA Phil concert calendar was announced today. This is gonna be good.
>
> > When I saw the compressed time frame the first thing I thought was,
> > "how will they have enough rehearsal time?"
>
> Sorry to upset everyone, but this little jerk needs to be jumped on,
> not encouraged.
>
> Maybe in another 50 years he will be able to tackle Mahler - and maybe
> not.
>
> Jeffrey Smith.

'This little jerk needs to be jumped.' Words to live by, 'Jeffrey
Smith'.

> I'll admit that the way he is marketed irks me. As if unbridled
> "pasión" was the only thing Latin American musicians are capable of
> expressing. But, hey, I guess if it sells tickets and keeps the
> orchestra solvent, so be it. But, at least to me, there is a faint
> whiff of the minstrel show in all that PR-speak that surrounds and
> sometimes obscures his very real talent.

Debatable, yes, but Ms. Borda knows what she is doing. LA Phil is not
the orchestra or organization it was 13 years ago.

[T. Esteban Ayala]

On Jan 30, 5:04 pm, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 'This little jerk needs to be jumped.' Words to live by, 'Jeffrey
> Smith'.

Tattooing it on my forehead as I type.

[M forever]

On Jan 29, 12:04 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> How many of you are planning on buying this latest recording from DG?
>
> There was a time when I looked forward to DG releases. When my
> disposable income was budgeted ahead of time, usually by perusing the
> back pages of Gramophone. Of course, that's when DG was releasing
> Mahler 9s conducted by Bernstein, Giulini, Karajan and Abbado.
>
> I realize that no record label can thrive if all they do is re-re-
> reissue their back catalog. New artists need to be recorded, if for no
> other reason than to construct a musical document of what went on
> during a particular era.
>
> But I have to say that there's little if anything new being released
> by DG these days that is of even a fleeting interest to me.

I couldn't care less about Dudamel's Mahler 9, but speaking of LA,
does one of the hardcore collectors here maybe have a live recording
of Mahler 9 with Giulini and the LAP?

[Oscar]

On Jan 30, 5:25 pm, M forever wrote:
>
> I couldn't care less about Dudamel's Mahler 9, but speaking of LA,
> does one of the hardcore collectors here maybe have a live recording
> of Mahler 9 with Giulini and the LAP?

Giulini conducted the LA Phil in Mahler 9 in 1974, maybe later too.
Not sure if a recording exists.

From Los Angeles Times, January 29, 2011:

<< ... the Kolnische Rundschau declared that the LA Phil under
Dudamel "performed phenomenally," particularly in the final movement
of Mahler's iconic last symphony, which exhibited "the greatest
care...The quieter the music became, the greater the silence in the
audience (the emotion was scarcely disturbed when a double-bass
player
had to hurry from the stage in the final measures because of a
coughing fit)....In Gustavo Dudamel the music world has found a great
Mahler conductor."

Another German critic from General-Anzeiger wrote that the orchestra
"paid attention to every atmospheric nuance" of Mahler's Ninth and
that the piece was "meticulously realized by the orchestra." >>

[Mark S]

On Jan 30, 3:48 pm, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>

> > I'm surprised that a culturally sensitive person like yourself would
> > miss the opportunity to give equal treatment to Dudamel as you do St.
> > Clair. Surely, your mention of St Clair's ten-gallon hat should have
> > been complemented by your mention of Dudamel's sombrero.
>
> Hmmm...you're trying to be 'edgy' or just look like a tool? Sombreros
> are a symbol of Mexico, not Venezuela.

You're wrong

Some Texans wear big ten-gallon

> hatshttp://tiny.cc/razqrwCarl St. Clair is from Yoakum, Texas —

No, he was born in Hochheim, TX. He went to school in Yoakum. The only
reasons you're mentioning Yoakum is because your infantile mind thinks
it sounds funny, and because you're implying that a person from such a
place couldn't possibly turn out to be a good classical musician.

even
> country singer Dwight Yoakam wears a ten-gallon hat

Who cares?


>no Venezuelans wear somberos.

>WTF is this all about anyway
> — 'Dudamel's sombrero'? Really??

I'm only returning the "complement" you voiced by fantasizing about St
Clair wearing a 10-gallon hat. You made that comment based entirely on
where he was born - Texas. Ergo, I'm simply following your lead and
mentioning the type of hat Dudamel would wear, his being born in
Venezuela. And, yes, people wear sombreros in Venezuela.

BTW - I know the PSO b'casts on the radio, but I never listen to the
radio. Ever. Never have. Never will.

"Señor Sombrero — how old are you?? What next, Speedy Gonzalez??"

See above.

How about "Maestro Sombrero?" Better?

[Oscar]

On Jan 30, 6:07 pm, Mark S wrote:
>
> > Hmmm...you're trying to be 'edgy' or just look like a tool? Sombreros
> > are a symbol of Mexico, not Venezuela.
>
> You're wrong

Texas has the ten-gallon hat and Mexico has the el sombrero charro.
But you're right, Venezuela has hats with brims, too. I stand
corrected http://tiny.cc/rc7qrw

> > Carl St. Clair is from Yoakum, Texas —
>
> No, he was born in Hochheim, TX. He went to school in Yoakum. The only
> reasons you're mentioning Yoakum is because your infantile mind thinks
> it sounds funny, and because you're implying that a person from such a
> place couldn't possibly turn out to be a good classical musician.

Never said he wasn't 'good'.

> BTW - I know the PSO b'casts on the radio, but I never listen to the
> radio. Ever. Never have. Never will.

So, why assume I have only encountered St. Clair's musicianship ONCE?
He's on the air for free, live, every friggin' week! The Toscanini of
our time!

> "Señor Sombrero — how old are you?? What next, Speedy Gonzalez??"
>
> See above.
>
> How about "Maestro Sombrero?" Better?

Tonhalle Düsseldorf apparently thinks he's Maestro Superman http://tiny.cc/du7qrw
(from their season brochure) Dudamel never wears hats anyway. Chicks
love the mane, baby hats http://tiny.cc/1w7qrw

[Oscar]

On Jan 30, 6:07 pm, Mark S wrote:
>

> BTW - I know the PSO b'casts on the radio, but I never listen to the
> radio. Ever. Never have. Never will.

Bullstuff. Here you are in 1964 listening to Goldwater's Acceptance
speech: http://tiny.cc/mg8qrw

When the Big One to hits, you'll be wishing you saved your grandma's
battery-operated transistor. All your plugged 'devices' will be
worthless. But you're nothing if not a Man of Absolutes. 'Never
have...NEVER WILL!'

[Mark S]

On Jan 30, 6:35 pm, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> So, why assume I have only encountered St. Clair's musicianship ONCE?
> He's on the air for free, live, every friggin' week!

Because you said that you only saw him once with the PSO. You had no
idea at all about recordings he has made with the PSO on Sony
Classical, among others. Why should I assume that you've heard their
concerts on the radio? You could be like me and never listen to the
radio.

[O]

In article
<b9e819d6-8ab3-49b4...@6g2000pbh.googlegroups.com>,

Looks like you had two. Sounds like bigamy to me.

-Owen, as Groucho would say, rather big of me.

[M forever]

On Jan 30, 10:50 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Jan 29, 10:13 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > What's wrong with having a Hispanic girlfriend?
>
> Nothing wrong with that. I had a girlfriend in NYC who was Cuban.
>

> It's just crass to pull an Oscar by posting in a public forum that you
> have a "hot-bodied Hispanic girlfriend."

Not just that - he even linked to private pictures of her.

[Mark S]

As long as he didn't post pictures of her privates...

[Herman]

Op donderdag 31 januari 2013 14:17:42 UTC+1 schreef O het volgende:

> In article
>
> <b9e819d6-8ab3-49b4...@6g2000pbh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Oscar <oscaredwar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> > >
>
> > > I have had one, it's not worth the hassle.
>

>

> Looks like you had two. Sounds like bigamy to me.
>
>

I had neither and I count myself lucky

[jrsnfld]

On Jan 29, 9:04 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> How many of you are planning on buying this latest recording from DG?

I will buy it.

>
> There was a time when I looked forward to DG releases. When my
> disposable income was budgeted ahead of time, usually by perusing the
> back pages of Gramophone. Of course, that's when DG was releasing
> Mahler 9s conducted by Bernstein, Giulini, Karajan and Abbado.

All of them worthwhile, but I can't imagine how you of all people
would not look forward to the first ever commercially released Mahler
9 from the LA Phil--an orchestra close to your hometown. Actually, I
can't imagine why you would not buy pretty much any LA Phil release,
since you buy so much else.

>
> I realize that no record label can thrive if all they do is re-re-
> reissue their back catalog. New artists need to be recorded, if for no
> other reason than to construct a musical document of what went on
> during a particular era.

Exactly--locals in particular should support the LA Phil in this
endeavor to document their playing these days. When it comes to Mahler
9, the LA Phil are "new artists". Orchestras are always refreshing
themselves, anyway, so those old Mehta and Giulini discs--even the
Salonen legacy--you have rattling around your house are no
representation of the current orchestra.

>
> But I have to say that there's little if anything new being released
> by DG these days that is of even a fleeting interest to me.

I have no idea what DG is releasing these days, but if they're
releasing LA Phil recordings, I would expect you to be first in line.

As for this Mahler 9 in question, I have only heard the broadcast that
preceded it. Actually, I've heard it a few times, in part and in
whole, because it's on my portable music player. The playing is
superb--really ravishing in many, many places and for that reason
alone--again, it's your awesome local major orchestra--I can't imagine
missing this disc. The disc is worth the price just for the oboe and
English horn playing.

The interpretation is not the greatest. Attention flags in some of the
quieter, slower passages, especially in the outer movements. The
second movement has vehemence and incisiveness but cannot compete with
the best in terms of lilt, humor, or flow. There's plenty to enjoy
even in such passages, but I will not hold Dudamel up for comparison
with my favorite Mahler 9 conductors--not yet.

As you noted elsewhere, Dudamel's Mahler 1 a few years back was not a
huge success on all counts--I remember a couple of odd transitions. It
was exciting enough for most people to love it when they heard it, but
repeated listening underscores some of his faults, and in particular a
predictable tendency to lurch ahead when the music gets louder and
more "exciting" and then pull back when music quiets down. Dudamel
also isn't yielding tons of new insights in terms of details (Caveat:
I'm judging from broadcast sound.) You will think about these issues
again with the Mahler 9.

So, if you fear Dudamel is not a good enough conductor for you,
perhaps you are right. He can be very exciting, however, and so far
can be counted on to get great sounds out of his musicians. Indeed,
the last movement redeems the performance on account of the shear
beauty: the ways in which Dudamel falls short are dwarfed by the
loveliness of hearing a great orchestra record this music for the
first time. So buy the disc and show that you do care about music-
making in your area. Discs like this are relatively rare compared to
the piles of purchases you make to support the dead and gone.

--Jeff

[Mark S]

On Jan 31, 12:35 pm, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:

> So, if you fear Dudamel is not a good enough conductor for you,
> perhaps you are right. He can be very exciting, however, and so far
> can be counted on to get great sounds out of his musicians. Indeed,
> the last movement redeems the performance on account of the shear
> beauty: the ways in which Dudamel falls short are dwarfed by the
> loveliness of hearing a great orchestra record this music for the
> first time. So buy the disc and show that you do care about music-
> making in your area. Discs like this are relatively rare compared to
> the piles of purchases you make to support the dead and gone.

Thanks for your response.

The LA Phil is NOT our "local band." That's the PSO. We denizens of OC
do not consider ourselves to be a suburb of LA. We have a spectacular
orchestra that plays in its own spectacular hall that regularly earns
spectacular reviews in the LA Times. The PSO is still a per-service
orchestra whose players are drawn from the large and excellent player
pool in, well, LA. Many players in the PSO regularly play on movie
soundtracks recorded in LA. These are excellent players by any count.

The PSO played Mahler 9 a few years ago. I wasn't able to hear those
performances. They're playing the Mahler 5 in March. I will probably
go to those concerts.

In addition to the PSO, our local Philharmonic Society offers a series
of concerts at Segerstrom Hall that feature many world-class
orchestras. The LA under Dudamel are playing here in May (Mendelssohn
5, Mozart Sin Conc, etc). Yo Yo Ma is playing on that series this
Saturday pm, Perlman a week later. St Louis SO/Robertson plays here in
March. JE Gardiner was here in December leading his period orchestra
in the B9 & Missa solemnis. 2014 has the VPO, LAPO and the BBC playing
in OC.

Not bad for the sticks.

I would be interested in making the trip to LA to see the opera as we
no longer have a resident company here. I'd be interested in traveling
to LA to hear the LAPO IF I was interested in the rep/conductor.
Dudamel in Mahler doesn't interest me. The LA is still a fabulous
orchestra. I agree with you there. But I also agree with you when you
write about Dudamel's Mahler 9, "The interpretation is not the
greatest."

Why should I feel compelled to spend good money on such a thing? I
didn't feel compelled to buy every recording made by the Cleveland
Orchestra when I lived in the Cleveland area. I didn't feel compelled
to buy every recording made by the NYPO when I lived in NYC. In fact,
even though I have a casual personal relationship with Lorin Maazel, I
have never felt the urge to buy any of the recordings he made for DG
with the NYPO, CDs or downloads.

Not feeling such an urge is what allows me to conserve my disposable
income so I can purchase things like the Karajan 1960s box and -
increasingly - BluRays of films I enjoy.

[Steve de Mena]

On 1/29/13 9:31 AM, Thornhill wrote:

> On Jan 29, 12:04 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> How many of you are planning on buying this latest recording from DG?
>>

>> There was a time when I looked forward to DG releases. When my
>> disposable income was budgeted ahead of time, usually by perusing the
>> back pages of Gramophone. Of course, that's when DG was releasing
>> Mahler 9s conducted by Bernstein, Giulini, Karajan and Abbado.
>>

>> I realize that no record label can thrive if all they do is re-re-
>> reissue their back catalog. New artists need to be recorded, if for no
>> other reason than to construct a musical document of what went on
>> during a particular era.
>>

>> But I have to say that there's little if anything new being released
>> by DG these days that is of even a fleeting interest to me.
>

> For me to buy yet another Mahler recording, I need some extra value,
> like for it to be a multi-channel SACD (I'll admit that one of the
> reasons I've been buying the Ivan Fisher Mahler recordings is that
> they are SACDs in state of the art sound). In fact, despite how hot
> Dudamel is at the moment, I imagine this release will lose some sales
> because it isn't a SACD and (not that there are a huge number of SACD
> owners out there, but they represent a large proportion of people who
> still buy classical music on physical media).
>

Their profit will likely be higher with a CD release versus SACD.

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

On 1/29/13 2:54 PM, Thornhill wrote:

> Isn't this Mahler recording also the first CD release with Dudamel/
> LAPO/DG (so I'm not counting DVD/Blu-ray and download only)? That
> shows just how tepid DG is to spend the money it costs to record an
> American orchestra.

I believe so, and I don't know if the recordings come from the live
concerts he gave of the Mahler symphonies.

Steve

[Mark S]

According to the DG website, it's taken from live performances:

GUSTAV MAHLER
Symphonie No. 9
Los Angeles Philharmonic
Gustavo Dudamel
Int. Release 25 Jan. 2013
2 CDs / Download
0289 479 0924 8 2 CDs DDD GH2
Live Recording

[Dufus]

>On Feb 1, 11:05 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Barenboim's " Sistema " seems to be working ; I have not heard the
Decca set ; anyone here has ? :

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/01/arts/music/west-eastern-divan-orchestra-at-carnegie-hall.html?ref=arts&_r=0

[jrsnfld]

I seem to remember a Kurt Sanderling-led Mahler 9 in LA. Am I dreaming
or is there some record of it?

--Jeff

[Gerard]

Dufus <steve...@gmail.com> typed:

> > On Feb 1, 11:05 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Barenboim's " Sistema " seems to be working ;

Barenboim's orchestra has nothing to do with a "Sistema".

[Mark S]

On Feb 1, 10:49 am, "Gerard" <ghendrikse_nospa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> typed:

>
> > > On Feb 1, 11:05 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Barenboim's " Sistema " seems to be working ;
>
> Barenboim's orchestra has nothing to do with a "Sistema".

Just to be clear - Dufus wrote that Barenboim sistema comment, not me.

[jrsnfld]

On Jan 31, 2:43 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 12:35 pm, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > So, if you fear Dudamel is not a good enough conductor for you,
> > perhaps you are right. He can be very exciting, however, and so far
> > can be counted on to get great sounds out of his musicians. Indeed,
> > the last movement redeems the performance on account of the shear
> > beauty: the ways in which Dudamel falls short are dwarfed by the
> > loveliness of hearing a great orchestra record this music for the
> > first time. So buy the disc and show that you do care about music-
> > making in your area. Discs like this are relatively rare compared to
> > the piles of purchases you make to support the dead and gone.
>
> Thanks for your response.
>
> The LA Phil is NOT our "local band."

Methinks you protest too strenuously...you can have more than one
local band, and in SoCal, you're under the sphere of only one world-
class outfit, and that's the LAPO--you're local band (or one of them).

>The PSO is still a per-service
> orchestra whose players are drawn from the large and excellent player
> pool in, well, LA. Many players in the PSO regularly play on movie
> soundtracks recorded in LA.

QED. You're in the LA area, you draw from the LA musicians; you're PSO
musicians work in LA. Your local world-class ensemble is the LAPO.

>
> The PSO played Mahler 9 a few years ago. I wasn't able to hear those
> performances. They're playing the Mahler 5 in March. I will probably
> go to those concerts.
>

i.e., you like Mahler enough to buy Mahler when you care about the
performance.

> In addition to the PSO, our local Philharmonic Society offers a series
> of concerts at Segerstrom Hall that feature many world-class
> orchestras. The LA under Dudamel are playing here in May (Mendelssohn
> 5, Mozart Sin Conc, etc). Yo Yo Ma is playing on that series this
> Saturday pm, Perlman a week later. St Louis SO/Robertson plays here in
> March. JE Gardiner was here in December leading his period orchestra
> in the B9 & Missa solemnis. 2014 has the VPO, LAPO and the BBC playing
> in OC.
>
> Not bad for the sticks.

If you think OC is the sticks, you haven't been in the sticks. I grew
up in the sticks (musically speaking), but fortunately lived near a
small city (much smaller than OC) that had offerings as good or better
than that.

>
> I would be interested in making the trip to LA to see the opera as we
> no longer have a resident company here. I'd be interested in traveling
> to LA to hear the LAPO IF I was interested in the rep/conductor.
> Dudamel in Mahler doesn't interest me. The LA is still a fabulous
> orchestra. I agree with you there. But I also agree with you when you
> write about Dudamel's Mahler 9, "The interpretation is not the
> greatest."

And yet, the playing is still great, well worth hearing. Nearly every
interpretation of Mahler 9 is "not the greatest", by definition.
Nearly every interpretation of Mahler 9 has many merits, including
Dudamel's.

> Not feeling such an urge is what allows me to conserve my disposable
> income so I can purchase things like the Karajan 1960s box and -
> increasingly - BluRays of films I enjoy.

You're missing the big picture, Mark. You frequently tout expensive
purchases here, including big boxes of reissues half full of discs you
already have, on this ng. And you complain that new DG offerings are
thin these days--as if you're desperate to spend even more. Then you
goad people with "Does Anyone Care?" when DG *does* release something
new that many people have no trouble showing interest in.

A classical music lover doesn't charge into the movies newsgroup with
"Citizen Kane on BluRay--Does Anyone Care?" and then complain that his
budget is already taken up with premium Mahler purchases. If you don't
care about a disc, fine. But don't pretend to wonder how anyone else
cares, when you'd rather watch dead actors than listen to living
musicians.

--Jeff

[Dufus]

>On Feb 1, 12:49 pm, "Gerard" <ghendrikse_nospa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> typed:

> Barenboim's " Sistema " seems to be working ;
>
> Barenboim's orchestra has nothing to do with a "Sistema".

Yes it does.

[Gerard]

Dufus <steve...@gmail.com> typed:

Nope.

[Oscar]

On Feb 1, 11:03 am, jrsnfld wrote:
>
> > The PSO played Mahler 9 a few years ago. I wasn't able to hear those
> > performances. They're playing the Mahler 5 in March. I will probably
> > go to those concerts.
>
> i.e., you like Mahler enough to buy Mahler when you care about the
> performance.

With the release date just days away now, it is only a matter of time
before this major new release for the Los Angeles Philharmonic will be
played in its entirely on KUSC. im Svejda always plays Mahler in the 9
o'clock hour — Iván Fischer's Mahler 1 w/ Budapest SO was featured on
Monday. I can't see any reason why Mark S. wouldn't want to tune in,
free of charge, if only out of morbid curiosity. 'Bumpers' will be
played to promote it the day before and day of. He reads this ng
daily...I'll let him know when it's on!

[Oscar]

On Jan 31, 2:43 pm, Mark S wrote:
>
> > So, if you fear Dudamel is not a good enough conductor for you,
> > perhaps you are right. He can be very exciting, however, and so far
> > can be counted on to get great sounds out of his musicians. Indeed,
> > the last movement redeems the performance on account of the shear
> > beauty: the ways in which Dudamel falls short are dwarfed by the
> > loveliness of hearing a great orchestra record this music for the
> > first time. So buy the disc and show that you do care about music-
> > making in your area. Discs like this are relatively rare compared to
> > the piles of purchases you make to support the dead and gone.
>
> Thanks for your response.

Curious why you didn't take time to reply to Mr. Ayala, who has
actually seen Dudamel in concert numerous times. Maybe ask him what he
found special or distinctive about Dudamel's interpretation of Mahler
9 or the quality of the orchestral playing/musicianship in general:

On Jan 30, 4:39 pm, T. Esteban Ayala wrote:
>
> As for his Mahler 9, I heard it in person last year. It was a very
> good one from what I recall.

...or ask him what was 'weird' about the concerts with Andsnes:

On Jan 30, 4:39 pm, T. Esteban Ayala wrote:
>
> Dudamel is, like any musician, inconsistent. Some of the stuff he's
> conducted has been dull or weird (like the recent performances of the

> Beethoven piano concertos with Andsnes). But he also has led some
> remarkable performances: Messiaen's Turangalila, Ravel's Mother Goose,

> an excellent Beethoven Eroica, a scintillating Ginastera Piano
> Concerto 1 with Sergio Tiempo, Stucky's Symphony, etc.

...or inquire how Dudamel compares to other 'all-purpose' conductors
in the US, e.g. Tilson Thomas, Schwarz, Levine, etc. And why the heck
is Mr. Ayala so darn optimistic anyway?? From what vantage does he see
sunlight when you see only gloom and doom and the artistic forfeiture
and bankruptcy of one of America's highest-profile orchestras...in
just four years??

On Jan 30, 4:39 pm, T. Esteban Ayala wrote:
>
> He's better than most conductors of the general, all-purpose sort
> today. Give him 20 years or so and he'll be even better.

Was there really nothing to talk to Mr. Ayala about?

[Mark S]

On Feb 1, 11:03 am, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2:43 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 31, 12:35 pm, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > So, if you fear Dudamel is not a good enough conductor for you,
> > > perhaps you are right. He can be very exciting, however, and so far
> > > can be counted on to get great sounds out of his musicians. Indeed,
> > > the last movement redeems the performance on account of the shear
> > > beauty: the ways in which Dudamel falls short are dwarfed by the
> > > loveliness of hearing a great orchestra record this music for the
> > > first time. So buy the disc and show that you do care about music-
> > > making in your area. Discs like this are relatively rare compared to
> > > the piles of purchases you make to support the dead and gone.
>
> > Thanks for your response.
>
> > The LA Phil is NOT our "local band."
>
> Methinks you protest too strenuously...you can have more than one
> local band, and in SoCal, you're under the sphere of only one world-
> class outfit, and that's the LAPO--you're local band (or one of them).

You're forgetting the San Diego SO, which is another good orchestra.

There are degrees to what is considered to be world-class. I would say
that the Cleveland Orchestra, the Vienna Philharmonic and the Chicago
Symphony are in a world-class category that LA is not. I would further
say that the artistic distance between the PSO and the LAPO is not as
great as is the distance between the LAPO and the VPO. Until you've
heard the PSO live, I wouldn't go around touting the LAPO as being all
that much superior.

When I lived in Ashtabula, OH (my hometown), the Cleveland Orchestra
was 55 miles away. I considered it the local, world-class band. The
Pittsburgh Symphony was 120 miles away. It's a world class orchestra,
but I never considered it to be my local band. When I lived in Fresno,
the closest world-class band was in San Fransisco, which was about 200
miles away.

>You're in the LA area, you draw from the LA musicians; you're PSO
> musicians work in LA. Your local world-class ensemble is the LAPO.

And I'm sure there are members of the LAPO who live in OC.

> > The PSO played Mahler 9 a few years ago. I wasn't able to hear those
> > performances. They're playing the Mahler 5 in March. I will probably
> > go to those concerts.
>
> i.e., you like Mahler enough to buy Mahler when you care about the
> performance.

I'm in no hurry to hear Mahler these days. My last Mahler purchase was
the cheapie reissue of Bernstein's Sony cycle, though I was tempted by
Fischer's Mahler 1.

> If you think OC is the sticks, you haven't been in the sticks. I grew
> up in the sticks (musically speaking), but fortunately lived near a
> small city (much smaller than OC) that had offerings as good or better
> than that.

I grew up in the sticks as well.

> > I would be interested in making the trip to LA to see the opera as we
> > no longer have a resident company here. I'd be interested in traveling
> > to LA to hear the LAPO IF I was interested in the rep/conductor.
> > Dudamel in Mahler doesn't interest me. The LA is still a fabulous
> > orchestra. I agree with you there. But I also agree with you when you
> > write about Dudamel's Mahler 9, "The interpretation is not the
> > greatest."
>
> And yet, the playing is still great, well worth hearing. Nearly every
> interpretation of Mahler 9 is "not the greatest", by definition.
> Nearly every interpretation of Mahler 9 has many merits, including
> Dudamel's.

I've had the fortune of hearing Mahler 9 live in performances best
described as being great and greater. I'm not interested in hearing
Mahler played great these days. I'm more interested in hearing Haydn
played great.

> > Not feeling such an urge is what allows me to conserve my disposable
> > income so I can purchase things like the Karajan 1960s box and -
> > increasingly - BluRays of films I enjoy.
>
> You're missing the big picture, Mark. You frequently tout expensive
> purchases here, including big boxes of reissues half full of discs you
> already have, on this ng.  And you complain that new DG offerings are
> thin these days--as if you're desperate to spend even more. Then you
> goad people with "Does Anyone Care?" when DG *does* release something
> new that many people have no trouble showing interest in.

When I buy one of these big sets I usually sell off or give away the
now-duplicated CDs I already own. I'm not desperate to spend money on
CDs, especially with one kid in college and another 3 years away from
college.

I buy plenty of single and double CDs of rep that interests me. In the
past year, those purchases have included the Complete Carl Ruggles on
Other Minds, Brahms cycles by Jochum (DG), Levine (RCA) and Walter
(NYPO-Sony) - and I don't even like Brahms all that much!, a bunch of
Beethoven cycles, too, along with the big box sets. This just happens
to be a great time to get huge box sets for next to nothing. What's
wrong with taking advantage of the situation? Should I have passed up
the chance to get RCA's Toscanini Edition for $75, simply because I
had a few of those CDs already?

I don't feel that I'm "touting" big box sets here. If anything, I try
to warn people off sets that may not measure up, like Brilliant's NRK
EDition, which omits his Russian Easter Overture and Capriccio
espagnol. If I feel a multi-CD set does merit purchase, I usually only
chime in where I've found it at a greatly reduced price, just to give
fellow rmcrs a chance to pick it up cheap if they were already
thinking about it. What's wrong with that?

> A classical music lover doesn't charge into the movies newsgroup with
> "Citizen Kane on BluRay--Does Anyone Care?" and then complain that his
> budget is already taken up with premium Mahler purchases. If you don't
> care about a disc, fine. But don't pretend to wonder how anyone else
> cares, when you'd rather watch dead actors than listen to living
> musicians.

No, but they might charge into the movie ng with, "A Christmas Story
-2--Are They Kidding Us??!!" That's the film equivalent of releasing
new product that there is no good reason to have produced in the first
place.

Living musicians? These days, I tend to hear my "living musicians" in
the concert hall, which always costs me more to hear a performance
once than it would be to buy it on a CD, where I can hear it
endlessly. The question is whether those performances of standard rep
by living musicians are worthy of being enshrined for posterity on a
CD. In many cases, the answer is "no."

Based on what I've heard of Dudamel to date (which is limited, I
admit), I don't feel his Mahler is something that need be saved for
posterity on a CD. His musical ideas just aren't that interesting to
my way of thinking. In fact, they're sort of shallow and hackneyed.

BTW - I did get "Citizen Kane" on BD as a gift for my son, Xmas 2011.
Haven't yet watched it. He said it was great.

[Mark S]

On Feb 1, 11:28 am, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Curious why you didn't take time to reply to Mr. Ayala, who has
> actually seen Dudamel in concert numerous times.
>

> Was there really nothing to talk to Mr. Ayala about?

I'll respond to who I want, when I want.

The only reason I'm responding to you in this thread is because I've
been browsing with Safari, and it doesn't have a killfile, as does
Firefox. I don't even see your posts when I browse with Firefox.

[jrsnfld]

On Feb 1, 9:17 am, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Feb 1, 11:05 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Barenboim's " Sistema " seems to be working ; I have not heard the
> Decca set ; anyone here has ? :
>

> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/01/arts/music/west-eastern-divan-orche...

Do you really think of the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra as equivalent
to El Sistema? They hardly seem equivalent in terms of pervasive
educational, social goals.

And whether or not Barenboim's project is working as intended is also
debatable. I'm not sure it has promoted peace as successfully as
hoped. Musically, however, the success is pretty obvious.

Even if you haven't heard the Decca set, I'll bet you heard much the
same from the Proms last summer.

--Jeff

[Mark S]

On Feb 1, 12:05 pm, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> And whether or not Barenboim's project is working as intended is also
> debatable. I'm not sure it has promoted peace as successfully as
> hoped.

When you take on an impossible mission, you shouldn't be surprised by
the lack of results.

[Gerard]

Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> typed:

Not doing anything will never bring any result.