piano sound in film "Amadeus"

[grea...@rocketmail.com]

I just watch the movie "Amadues" last Saturday and it's great. Mozart
is one of my favarite composer. One question for all the experts:

In the movie, the sound of the piano is different from the modern one.
I think it's not harpsichord since it's louder. But it does not sound
like mordern piano either. Is it the so-called fortepiano? I like its
sound. Could any one recommend some recording using such
instrument for Mozart's piano music ? Thanks in advance.

Song

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[Frank]

>In the movie, the sound of the piano is different from the modern one.
>I think it's not harpsichord since it's louder. But it does not sound
>like mordern piano either. Is it the so-called fortepiano? I like its
>sound. Could any one recommend some recording using such
>instrument for Mozart's piano music ? Thanks in advance.

Yes it is. Mozart wrote his sonatas for this instrument. He had its sound in
his head while composing. So you can imagine that it communicates the music
better than a modern piano does.There are several good recordings. A cheap
one is Malcolm Bilson on Hungaroton: 3 or 4 boxes with all the sonatas.
Paul Badura-Skoda recorded them as well. A recent and brilliant one is from
Roland Brautigam.
They play either on historical fortepianos or on copies. There is also a
recording from Andras Schiff, who plays on Mozarts own piano, but I would
avoid this one if I were you. The man is a specialist on modern pianos and
he uses the wrong technique when playing on this old one.
Because there were so many pianobuilders around in Mozarts Vienna and Mozart
played on different ones, it's a matter of taste the sound of which you like
most.

If you enjoy it, you could continue with Beethoven. Then you will hear
completely different pianofortes.

Frank

[Simon Roberts]

grea...@rocketmail.com wrote:
: I just watch the movie "Amadues" last Saturday and it's great. Mozart

: is one of my favarite composer. One question for all the experts:

: In the movie, the sound of the piano is different from the modern one.

: I think it's not harpsichord since it's louder. But it does not sound
: like mordern piano either. Is it the so-called fortepiano? I like its
: sound. Could any one recommend some recording using such
: instrument for Mozart's piano music ? Thanks in advance.

It's years since I saw the movie, but my memory is that for the section
that involved #22 they used a fortepiano, not in the others. Since at the
time there was no fortepiano recording of that piece, I bought the
soundtrack. Needless to say, on that Moravec plays a modern Steinway. So
it goes. As for recordings using fortepianos, Bilson/Gardiner on Archiv
recorded all of the Mozart concertos, as has Immerseel on Channel
Classics. Another series, featuring better piano playing, is under way
from Levin on Oiseau Lyre. Or if you want what to my ears is the best so
far, there's a single disc on Teldec, which sadly doesn't seem to be part
of a series, by Andreas Staier playing 9 and 17. The conductorless
orchestra handily beats all the conducted ones I've heard in this music,
period or modern.

Simon

[John Grabowski]

Simon Roberts wrote:
>
> grea...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> : I just watch the movie "Amadues" last Saturday and it's great. Mozart
> : is one of my favarite composer. One question for all the experts:
>
> : In the movie, the sound of the piano is different from the modern one.
> : I think it's not harpsichord since it's louder. But it does not sound
> : like mordern piano either. Is it the so-called fortepiano? I like its
> : sound. Could any one recommend some recording using such
> : instrument for Mozart's piano music ? Thanks in advance.
>
> It's years since I saw the movie, but my memory is that for the section
> that involved #22 they used a fortepiano, not in the others.

I recall a modern piano in No. 22 and a "period" piano only in scenes
where he's playing solo or demonstrating things in front of the Emperor
or such. One of the things that rattled me about the picture was how in
the concert scene outside we see a period orchestra with a period piano,
and we hear a modern Neville Marriner recording on the soundtrack.

John

--
"Muss es Sein? --Es muss Sein!"

Did I miss Seinfeld? --I missed Seinfeld! --Beethoven

[John Grabowski]

Frank wrote:
>
> >In the movie, the sound of the piano is different from the modern one.
> >I think it's not harpsichord since it's louder. But it does not sound
> >like mordern piano either. Is it the so-called fortepiano? I like its
> >sound. Could any one recommend some recording using such
> >instrument for Mozart's piano music ? Thanks in advance.
>

> Yes it is. Mozart wrote his sonatas for this instrument. He had its sound in
> his head while composing.

Just curious....how do you know this?

Mozart frequently expressed his annoyance with the limitations of
contemporary instruments, as did Beethoven. Who knows what sounds they
were hearing?

> So you can imagine that it communicates the music
> better than a modern piano does.

That's hardly an established fact.

> If you enjoy it, you could continue with Beethoven. Then you will hear
> completely different pianofortes.

Yes, ones he was dissatisfied with, and said, after publishing his Op.
111 in 1822, he was finished with because they were unsatisfactory as
expressive instruments. (Of course he did come back to the piano a few
more times.)

[Frank]

>> >In the movie, the sound of the piano is different from the modern one.
>> >I think it's not harpsichord since it's louder. But it does not sound
>> >like mordern piano either. Is it the so-called fortepiano? I like its
>> >sound. Could any one recommend some recording using such
>> >instrument for Mozart's piano music ? Thanks in advance.
>>
>> Yes it is. Mozart wrote his sonatas for this instrument. He had its sound
in
>> his head while composing.
>
>Just curious....how do you know this?

He told me.

>Mozart frequently expressed his annoyance with the limitations of
>contemporary instruments, as did Beethoven. Who knows what sounds >they
were hearing?

As far as I know, he complained about particular instruments and their
builders; not about the instrument in general.

>
>> So you can imagine that it communicates the music
>> better than a modern piano does.
>
>That's hardly an established fact.

No, it's not an established fact, but once it will. I am aware of the fact
that many people see the history of the piano as a straight line of
technical improvements, that stopped exactly in our modern days. But piano
building is always a matter of compromising. Each era had the instruments
that belong to the music of that time. Think of the harpsichord. Think of
the cornetto. Think of the viola da gamba. Irreplacable by any modern
instrument.
The 18th- and 19th century builders were very capable men (and women!), that
knew perfectly what they were doing. In Mozart's and Beethoven's time they
worked closely together with Viennese composers in order to produce
instruments that served the compositions optimal. Most composers had their
favorite builder. Each of them strived for his own personal sound, not for
uniformity. Not yet.

Besides, these pioneers modelled their instruments after the orchestra by
giving them three registers: a high one, a low one and one in between. A
melody played on the higher keys had a different timbre and character than
played on other parts of the piano. A nightmare for a modern piano builder!
In modern piano building they strive for a unity of sound in all the
registers; just the opposite of the early days. Mozart exploited these
different tone colors in his sonatas, just like Beethoven did, and, most of
all in my opinion, Schubert.
So to me it is logical that since Mozart wrote his pianomusic for the early
pianoforte, this is the instrument that communicates the music best. Better
than a synthesizer, an organ or a modern Steinway or Bosendorfer.
But the biggest prove to me is my ears. They hear that a good pianoforte
fits the music like a glove.
Of course, that doesn't mean that all pianoforte recordings are good ones. I
know some pretty bad ones. Besides, only in the last 10 or 15 years they
have managed to build perfect replicas and restore old ones well, so on many
of the old recordings the sound is harsh or the instrument is out of tune.

>> If you enjoy it, you could continue with Beethoven. Then you will hear
>> completely different pianofortes.
>
>Yes, ones he was dissatisfied with, and said, after publishing his Op.
>111 in 1822, he was finished with because they were unsatisfactory as
>expressive instruments. (Of course he did come back to the piano a few
>more times.)

Mm. Yes, Beethoven once said that the (forte)piano was such an
inadequate instrument. But he had a very personal problem. He wanted an
instrument subtle in articulation and expression, like an old Viennese one;
at the same time it had to sing like a Broadwood. But alas, articulation
and legato don't combine very well. And Beethoven did not have a
compromising character, did he?
Nevertheless, whatever he wanted, he wrote his sonatas for the available
instruments. We can see this from the autographs - especially those of his
late sonatas, which show thousands of small articulation signs, that are
practically unplayable on a modern piano, simply because its resonance is
too big and because its lack of diversity in sound.

Then there is the element of balance. Beethoven always tried to go beyond
the possibilities of every instrument, just as he stretched the
possibilities of classical form. In fact, he complained about virtually
every instrument, including the human voice.
The element of tension in his pianosonatas can only be realized on a
Steinway if the performer makes a lot of noise; much more than is possible
on a pianoforte.
So you can guess that this is at the expense of subtlety.
Another thing is that in his early sonatas he wrote chords that suggested to
go beyond the reach of the instrument (That had only 5 or 6 octaves, I
think). Very exciting. Not anymore when played on a modern piano, where the
performer stops somewhere in the middle of the keys.

What can I say more? That listening to old pianos needs practice. It takes
time to learn to know the different sound and recognize the timbres. One of
the nicest things is the big diversity between pianofortes; they all sound
different. Much more than is the case with modern pianos.

Frank

[Simon Roberts]

John Grabowski (jg...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: Frank wrote:
: >
: > Yes it is. Mozart wrote his sonatas for this instrument. He had its sound in
: > his head while composing.

: Just curious....how do you know this?

: Mozart frequently expressed his annoyance with the limitations of

: contemporary instruments, as did Beethoven. Who knows what sounds they
: were hearing?

True, but wasn't the dissatisfaction more a matter of volume and perhaps
sustaining ability? Whatever they imagined or wanted, one would expect it
to be closer to something they had actually heard than, say, the sound of
a modern Steinway, which resembles a Stein or Walter not in the least.
But of course, as you say, who knows?

: > So you can imagine that it communicates the music

: > better than a modern piano does.

: That's hardly an established fact.

Of course, it depends on what you mean by communicating the music. If you
mean reproduces sounds that they would have heard, yes; but it's debatable
whether their music should be so limited, even if they showed no
dissatisfaction with those pianos.

Simon

[Frank / Janneke]

>I'm defintely interested - what are some good recordings on the
pianoforte?

There are many good recordings. For Mozart I could advise you the latest
recordings by Ronald Brautigam on BIS, or Malcolm Bilson on Hungaroton.
For Beethoven there is Paul Badura-Skoda on Astree (he plays on original
instruments, not copies), Paul Komen on Globe, and Melvyn Tan on EMI.
If you want to hear this register part best explained by the instrument
itself, you should listen to Andreas Staier playing Schubert on Teldec, for
example the beginning of his last sonata D. 960. One minute of listening
will explain more than 1000 words.

Most people have to get used to the sound of a pianoforte, because the
glamorous Steinway sound has first to be banned. So take your time.

Frank

[Simon Roberts]

fh...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:

: I will suggest that you do an on-line search (at www.dejanews.com for
: example) for detailed recommendations from a true specialist in this
: field, namely Stephen Birkett, who is personally involved in restoring
: or replicating historical pianofortes (or more commonly fortepianos now).
: Andreas Staier, Alexei Lubimov and Jos van Immerseel, in my opinion,
: almost always record on instruments that well fit in Frank's description.
: I am now listening to Immerseel's recording of Debussy (!)Preludes and
: Images. Despite its more recent date, the 1897 Erard still sounds
: appreciably different from, say, modern Steinways.

If Andreas Staier's recordings of Mozart, Haydn and Schubert don't do it
nothing will; superlative musicianship coupled with excellent instruments.
To hear a wide range of instruments, one might also consider the box of
Beethoven sonatas issued by Claves in which Bilson and several of his
students play all the sonatas on a range of pianos historically
appropriate for the music at hand. And no-one but me ever mentions what
for me is the best HIP set of Mozart sonatas, Tuija Hakkila's on
Finlandia. If Mozart concertos are wanted, the ongoing cycle by Robert
Levin features, with Staier, the best such playing in this music. There
are lots more (e.g. Luc Devos' Chopin nocturnes), but these are good
places to start.

Simon