Herreweghe's Happy Passion

Simon Roberts

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May 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/1/00

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Francis (Fra...@datacomm.ch) wrote:
: I recently celebrated the Unorthodox Easter with Herreweghe's rendering of
: Bach's Matthew Passion. Based on the latest Historically Informed
: Performance,

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but to the extent you imply that his
performances are based on musicology, for what it's worth he denies being
a musicologist.

Herreweghe offers a radical interpretation of the Christian
: drama. Gone is the agony and grief suggested by "Come ye daughters, share my
: mourning ... he himself his cross is bearing" and in its place a jaunty
: opening chorus reflecting the joy of the liberating crucifixion. Jesus will,
: after all, rise again in three days bringing victory - and in the meantime
: the demons are happy. Purged of all negative emotions, this performance can
: be safely recommended for children everywhere.

Jauntiness is in the ear of the beholder, of course. I wonder what you
make of Scherchen and Koussevitzky, who take a mere extra 10 and 30
seconds respectively over the opening chorus.

Simon

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/1/00

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> Herreweghe offers a radical interpretation of the Christian
> : drama. Gone is the agony and grief suggested by "Come ye daughters, share my
> : mourning ... he himself his cross is bearing" and in its place a jaunty
> : opening chorus reflecting the joy of the liberating crucifixion. Jesus will,
> : after all, rise again in three days bringing victory - and in the meantime
> : the demons are happy. Purged of all negative emotions, this performance can
> : be safely recommended for children everywhere.
>
> Jauntiness is in the ear of the beholder, of course. I wonder what you
> make of Scherchen and Koussevitzky, who take a mere extra 10 and 30
> seconds respectively over the opening chorus.

It is NOT the tempo in itself, but the "pulse", the TACTUS [thank you,
Max], the phrasing. In the same way in which Erich Kleiber is closer to
Furtwangler than to Harnoncourt in Beethoven's Third Symphony, despite the
superficial tempo similarities between Kleiber and Ha(r)noncourt.

regards,
SG

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 1, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/1/00

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> I recently celebrated the Unorthodox Easter with Herreweghe's rendering

I've always thought that's *rending*. (-:

> of Bach's Matthew Passion. Based on the latest Historically Informed

> Performance, Herreweghe offers a radical interpretation of the Christian

> drama. Gone is the agony and grief suggested by "Come ye daughters, share my
> mourning ... he himself his cross is bearing" and in its place a jaunty
> opening chorus reflecting the joy of the liberating crucifixion. Jesus will,
> after all, rise again in three days bringing victory - and in the meantime
> the demons are happy. Purged of all negative emotions, this performance can
> be safely recommended for children everywhere.

Not for average and over IQ-ed children. Disney does better.

regards,
SG

Francis

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00

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I recently celebrated the Unorthodox Easter with Herreweghe's rendering of

Simon Roberts

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00

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samir ghiocel golescu (gol...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: >
: > Jauntiness is in the ear of the beholder, of course. I wonder what you

: > make of Scherchen and Koussevitzky, who take a mere extra 10 and 30
: > seconds respectively over the opening chorus.

: It is NOT the tempo in itself, but the "pulse", the TACTUS [thank you,
: Max], the phrasing.

I dare say, but the original poster didn't explain. And as I suggested,
it doesn't sound the least bit jaunty to me.

Simon

David Wesolowicz

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00

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You can hear a one minute snippet for yourself from the Amazon site:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002R0ZL/o/qid=957232367/sr=8-1/ref
=aps_sr_cm_1_1/104-9254514-5989203

Sounds jaunty to me. I'll take Klemperer - I'm in no hurry.

Dave

"Francis" <Fra...@datacomm.ch> wrote in message
news:390e...@news.datacomm.ch...

Matthew Westphal

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00

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> Francis (Fra...@datacomm.ch) wrote:
> : I recently celebrated the Unorthodox Easter with Herreweghe's

rendering of
> : Bach's Matthew Passion. Based on the latest Historically Informed
> : Performance,

Simon Roberts replied:

>
> I'm not sure what you mean by that, but to the extent you imply that
his
> performances are based on musicology, for what it's worth he denies
being
> a musicologist.

And his performance is hardly up-to-date in terms of the current state
of knowledge-and-belief about historical performance practice. It's
pretty much the same thing he's been doing for 15 years or more, only
at a higher technical level.

Francis:

> Herreweghe offers a radical interpretation of the Christian
> : drama. Gone is the agony and grief suggested by "Come ye daughters,
share my
> : mourning ... he himself his cross is bearing" and in its place a
jaunty
> : opening chorus reflecting the joy of the liberating crucifixion.
Jesus will,
> : after all, rise again in three days bringing victory - and in the
meantime
> : the demons are happy. Purged of all negative emotions, this
performance can
> : be safely recommended for children everywhere.

Simon:

> Jauntiness is in the ear of the beholder, of course. I wonder what
you
> make of Scherchen and Koussevitzky, who take a mere extra 10 and 30
> seconds respectively over the opening chorus.

Simon, what do you think Francis and Samir will make of McCreesh's SMP
when it comes out?

Matthew Westphal

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Jonathan Webster

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00

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I bought the same recording for Easter and I agree.

>
>> I recently celebrated the Unorthodox Easter with Herreweghe's rendering
>

>I've always thought that's *rending*. (-:
>

>> of Bach's Matthew Passion. Based on the latest Historically Informed

>> Performance, Herreweghe offers a radical interpretation of the Christian

>> drama. Gone is the agony and grief suggested by "Come ye daughters, share my
>> mourning ... he himself his cross is bearing" and in its place a jaunty
>> opening chorus reflecting the joy of the liberating crucifixion. Jesus will,
>> after all, rise again in three days bringing victory - and in the meantime
>> the demons are happy. Purged of all negative emotions, this performance can
>> be safely recommended for children everywhere.
>

Andrys D Basten

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00

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In article <390e...@news.datacomm.ch>, Francis <Fra...@datacomm.ch> wrote:
>I recently celebrated the Unorthodox Easter with Herreweghe's rendering of

>Bach's Matthew Passion. Based on the latest Historically Informed
>Performance, Herreweghe offers a radical interpretation of the Christian
>drama. Gone is the agony and grief suggested by "Come ye daughters, share my
>mourning ... he himself his cross is bearing" and in its place a jaunty
>opening chorus reflecting the joy of the liberating crucifixion. Jesus will,
>after all, rise again in three days bringing victory - and in the meantime
>the demons are happy. Purged of all negative emotions, this performance can
>be safely recommended for children everywhere.

I'll modify a couple of recent posts about this to see if my
take makes sense to anyone, as I love this piece, in various
choices of tempi. Klemperer's opening IS stirring and
emphasizes the heavy lament, with a kind of hindsight -- the
listeners are aware of what happens and it's summarized in
advance for us in the tempo and weight of that prelude (as well
as expressed in some of the text. I keep this LP set because it
does still move me.

As you know all too well -- in the period-performance
renditions, the tempo for the opening tends to be faster,
causing some listeners reared on the Klemperer to be very put
out by its seeming shallowness and lack of a feeling of
emotional loss.

Here's my own summary of the defense for the newer (to us)
approach (much discussed through the years on various forums).

The opening, when we read the text carefully, has as much to
do with the marketplace as it does a funeral. It's not so
much 'dance' - as some complain - (though baroque music just
tends to be based on dance) but the pulse of life, and here we
have people who are seeing Jesus marched through the streets but
who have no idea why, nor who he is. What? Who? is the
continuing voiced question. The movement of daily life is the
focus, interrupted by these interjections, as people going about
their normal day wonder what is going on.

In other words, the opening-scene/play is performed as if we are
back there, in the present, living/re-living that Passion-story,
rather than only remembering the ending of that story or even
noting it in advance though we sure have plenty of clues.

So, rather than the lament we're used to hearing from
Klemperer (which I love), we're hearing something more like a
play -- the movement of notes now based on the other part of the
text of Bach's composition. I think this is certainly a valid
interpretation of the music, even if what we're used to is valid
also, in another way - the Klemperer a lamentation based on what
we know is ahead, even if the people exclaiming 'Who? What?'
have no idea and at this point in the re-enacted Passion don't
care that much.

My own preferred performance of the opening to the St. Matthew
would combine both approaches, as both are found in the music.
All in minor, and in one of the most beautiful series of
progressions we'll ever hear, we're told that behind the hurly
burly and the bzzz about who that is and what is happening, is a
universal horror story of what man will to our best and how
easily we can do it.

So, I guess what I would like in another version is a somewhat
less leaden tempo, using instead the tension of the lines but
not short-shrifting the underlying sorrow of the storyteller,
while we also hear the sounds of ordinary life, of innocence and
curiosity, of people not yet touched by what is happening.

- A

--
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Paul Kintzele

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00

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Matthew Westphal wrote:
>
> Simon, what do you think Francis and Samir will make of McCreesh's SMP
> when it comes out?

Wow! Great news! Do you know when exactly it comes out?

Paul

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00

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I have had the Herreweghe II since January and I
disagree.

Jonathan Webster <jona...@marinternet.com> wrote in message
news:390e6a73...@news.marinternet.com...

> I bought the same recording for Easter and I agree.
>

> (usual SG s-stuff omitted)> >
>

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00

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On Tue, 2 May 2000, Hou Fang-Lin wrote:

> I have had the Herreweghe II since January and I disagree.

That is surprising! Do you play viola da gamba, by any chance? (-:

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00

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Guess again. Traverso is more like it.

samir ghiocel golescu wrote in message ...

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00

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As you may remember, we did discuss this subject a couple of months ago
and, then, I answered you (almost) as follows:

You presented well your case, but I simply don't believe that that is a
winning case.

1) Those rhetoric questions (part of the musical antiphonal concept
"staged" by Bach in Matthaus) cannot be undamagingly isolated from the
entire conception of the piece, or, if that's too much, from the initial
piece. How can one isolate the questions you are talking about from their
answers? How could one obscure that the CROSS appears from the first piece
(Holz zum Kreuze selber tragen!)? Then the concept of "innocent God's
lamb" (i.e. *sacrificial* Holy "Lamb"), already present in the fourth
verse, refers directly and painfully to the incoming scriptural facts.

2) The rhetoric questions of the choir may be: an oratoric pretext for
giving *the answers*; an (antique Greek tragedy choir-like) comment, which
may *seem* detached from the point of view of the "action", but it is very
much part of the dramatic web.

3) A la rigueur, the antiphonal concept present even in the first piece
may be imagined as to aggregate already the conflict between the two
"future" (in theatrical time) concepts of "human agglomeration"--cruel and
gregarious vs. communitarian and compassionate.

The "asking" crowd might be as well, perhaps, embodying the indifference,
the one that do not care about the divine message and messenger, thus
becoming the potential condemners of Jesus vs. the "answering" crowd may
be the conscious-become community unto faith.

4) Most important: the music itself. The tension created by the immensely
prolonged E pedal in the beginning, which bears the enormous "quiet
tumult" in the upper voices.

From a musical point of view, it is remarkable, in an 18th century piece,
written in a minor key, this continuation of such a pedal (and the
reiteration of it, later, on the dominant, presented as a *minor* chord as
well), as exceptional as the absence, on this pedal, of the dominant major
chord. We have, at least for part of the piece, only the [minor]
subdominant, the [minor as well!] dominant, and myriads of different
altered seventh and minor ninth chords, all of which objectively
contribute to build long-line tension, and not dancing-like staging of a
real (-only) people's being "surprised" and "informing" themselves
in the agora on "what's happening, folks?". Bach's use of harmony is so
masterful, that he makes the "lowest" (i.e. most "depressing") point of
his harmonic travaille to coincide with the words "auf unsre Schuld", the
psychological climax of the piece. Such words Bach, as a passionate
Christian, could not have intended to be said just as "un petit mot en
passant". He did mean them, ritually *and* literally.

5) Architecture: Bach was one of the greatest "organicists" in music, but
was as well the splendid architect we (perhaps better) know. The initial E
Minor piece is one of the two (or three, if we count the middle one, in E
Major, if memory serves) great pillars of the whole Matthaus-P,
corresponding to the final C Minor one.

Yes, between the beginning and the end, something "evolved" but something
remained "the same" as well, as in Christian theology Jesus' drama is
*concretely* "happening" all the time, 'till the end of history, but
Christ, as Son of God, transfigured figure beyond history, the "Word
that was in the beginning", Christ will exist before the beginning as he
existed after the end (pardon my wilfully contorted tenses).
Matthaus-Passion does "evolve" and does "become", but a tragic
wind blows powerfully from the first low E of this masterpiece, because
the knowledge of the tragic exit informs each temporally-"staged" Passion.

(I always wondered if this beginning inspired Brahms in his own beginning,
on an F pedal, of the German Requiem).

I would also add that the choice of fast tempi is not the first and
foremost problem in the HIP versions I've heard. Actually I always found
the tempo adopted by Klemperer a bit slow, *in principle*, if, however,
perfectly justified by that particular master. Also the problems are not
necessarily the period instruments or the soloists or the choirs (which,
sometimes, especially the choirs I've heard, happen to be truly excellent)
but the conductor and his musical conceptions. Harnoncourt conducted
awfully SMP even with Concertgebouworkest. Some good soloists were
wasted, IMO, in terribly conducted recordings. If, in the opening mvt. of
SMP, the conductor's MAIN concern is rendering the 12/8 rhythm in an
um-pah-pah, um-pah-pah manner, this approach, combined with the fastish
tempo, gives an involuntarily funny and undeniably inappropriate waltz
spirit, obscuring in the same time the "urlinie" that grants organicity to
the music, as well as the radical harmonic events that should inform the
color and the phrasing of the poli-melodic texture. (A very simple example:
right in the beginning, there is a fundamental line, e--f#-g#-a-b-c#-d#-e
line, hidden in the rich texture, and having a rhythm of its own,
compellingly irregular--[unwritten] dotted half-notes mixed with
quarter-notes. With Harnoncourt, the obstinacy of the dancing, invariable
rhythmicized ornamentation makes the grander line [that reflects the
harmonic progression] indistinguishable. Harnoncourt's use of staccato
also obnubilates, even in HIP terms, the cathedral resonance that makes
the staccato more a matter of eloquent declamation -- clearly *started*,
"attacked" sounds that reverberate freely afterwards, than a matter
of concrete, aural shortness, sounds being drastically cut). More some
other time.

regards,
SG

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00

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On Tue, 2 May 2000, Hou Fang-Lin wrote:

> Guess again. Traverso is more like it.

I see. Try to learn an instrument than.

Simon Roberts

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May 2, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/2/00

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Matthew Westphal (matthew...@my-deja.com) wrote:

: Simon, what do you think Francis and Samir will make of McCreesh's SMP
: when it comes out?

Oh, I suspect I could guess.... Do you have any idea who his soloists
are? If he uses that hellish countertenor who kills the music allotted to
him in the "Epiphany Mass" I won't be amused.

Simon

Andrys D Basten

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May 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/3/00

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In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.10005...@ux11.cso.uiuc.edu>,

This is an answer? Leave it to a budding pianist to be putting
down another's instrument though. That's the level to which the
forum goes these days with some.

Re your long answer on the opening of the St. Matthew - I agree
re the importance of the long pedal point and all that it means,
but I still say that one can't then just ignore all the other
elements because one is fixed on the eternal meaning of it all
and wanting all that is happening expressed in only one way.

A very important part of the Christian story IS that people
are not aware (within that religion's view) of "who" or "what"
Jesus was and it's not at all, as you infer, that they would
represent those who are "hostile" later to him but mainly those
who are AFFECTED by the life and death of the man but are not
aware of the grand mystery behind it. They represent the
earthbound, the REASON for the death in the first place. This
element, this other pulse of life, is just as important as the
other ones you describe well. It's part of the entire fabric,
the reason that particular life (and death) was needed. It also
needs representation in the feel of the piece. Like so much
music, this is about conflict, and should not be just a very
slow (some have said "lugubrious") movement.

Still, I enjoy both approaches I've heard. Still wondering if
I can hear something that expresses the whole a bit more.

- Andrys

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/3/00

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On 3 May 2000, Andrys D Basten wrote:

> In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.10005...@ux11.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> >
> >On Tue, 2 May 2000, Hou Fang-Lin wrote:
> >
> >> Guess again. Traverso is more like it.
> >
> >I see. Try to learn an instrument than.
>
>
> This is an answer? Leave it to a budding pianist to be putting
> down another's instrument though. That's the level to which the
> forum goes these days with some.

You are very objective in pointing out the level "some" reached,
forgetting all the s...s and the concentration camps kappos I was greeted
with. All for a joke on your behalf which, if in poor taste, was not
uttered with malignant thoughts, but for which, if perceived as such, I
apologize to you. [I regret I cannot apologize to your defender, who
insulted me without any insulting response from me.] I found many times
your contributions useful, not to speak about the fact that I also used
the v-store(s). (-:

> Re your long answer on the opening of the St. Matthew - I agree
> re the importance of the long pedal point and all that it means,
> but I still say that one can't then just ignore all the other
> elements because one is fixed on the eternal meaning of it all
> and wanting all that is happening expressed in only one way.
>
> A very important part of the Christian story IS that people
> are not aware (within that religion's view) of "who" or "what"
> Jesus was and it's not at all, as you infer, that they would
> represent those who are "hostile" later to him but mainly those
> who are AFFECTED by the life and death of the man but are not
> aware of the grand mystery behind it. They represent the
> earthbound, the REASON for the death in the first place. This
> element, this other pulse of life, is just as important as the
> other ones you describe well. It's part of the entire fabric,
> the reason that particular life (and death) was needed. It also
> needs representation in the feel of the piece. Like so much
> music, this is about conflict, and should not be just a very
> slow (some have said "lugubrious") movement.

What you say above makes perfect sense to me, as a scriptural
interpretation--I don't believe though that Bach was so much concerned
with expressing the ordinary life sounds, but the grief, the pain. Again,
the verses used in SMP's first piece, interpreted in their wholeness,
connote awareness of the incoming drama--see please what I've already
written.

> Still, I enjoy both approaches I've heard. Still wondering if
> I can hear something that expresses the whole a bit more.

Did you ever listen to Mengelberg?

regards,
SG

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/3/00

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Right. JS Bach used four traversi in the
orchestra for the opening chorus in SMP.
That is four instruments.

samir ghiocel golescu wrote in message ...
>

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/3/00

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On Thu, 4 May 2000, Raymond Hall wrote:

> As you sow shall you reap.

I tell you for the xth time: I have never insulted you and try to refrain
from continuously insulting me. Do not abuse, please, my patience.

> Anyway, what is wrong with the truth?

The "truth"? The "truth" that I am a "concentration camp kappo"? What
about this "level", Mrs. Basten?

> How was life inside the Mikulska doghouse - bit cramped was it?

It is not my fault that Mme Mikulska reads in one week more books about
music than other people read in their entire life. That I respect her
knowledge has nothing at all to do with flattery. When you know what you
do not know (as I do), you have no problems with admitting other people's
superiority, at least in certain respects. Democracy has nothing to do
with competence.

I think, speaking of "level", that there is the time that this entire line
of "dialogue" be buried, for good.

regards,
SG

Sybrand Bakker

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May 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/3/00

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samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> schreef in berichtnieuws
Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu...

>
>
> On 3 May 2000, Andrys D Basten wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.10005...@ux11.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > >

> > >On Tue, 2 May 2000, Hou Fang-Lin wrote:
> > >
> > >> Guess again. Traverso is more like it.
> > >
> > >I see. Try to learn an instrument than.
> >
> >

I tried to do so, but it me made laugh and weep, the interpretation is
ridiculous and it makes clear Mengelberg didn't understand baroque music and
the baroque way of expression.
Whatever you want, the piece simply has all properties of a siciliano, it is
a siciliano and siciliano's are necessarily not slow.
I can imagine your reaction, from your previous posts I noticed you don't
necessarily care about HIP, and I do. So far, I didn't reply, because I did
fight more 'wars' with the original poster, and his original subject clearly
is an insult.

Regards,

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May 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/3/00

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samir ghiocel golescu (gol...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:

: I apologize, but IMO referring to that piece as "simply" being a

: siciliano, *having* to be as all sicilianos are "supposed" to be, is as
: little supportable as claiming that all symphonic "allegros" in sonata
: form have to be played as Haydn's Allegro from Symphony xx(x) are supposed
: to be played. The fact that *one* of the roots of certain forms or genres
: Bach used might be found in certain types of dance music does not mean at
: all, IMO, that the way BACH (not "Baroque Music in general", whatever that
: may be) used them *has* to oblige the parameters those forms of dance
: music evolved within, generally speaking. Not more so than Mahler's "minuets"
: "have" to be performed in the same way (tempos, inner tension etc.) as
: Haydn's minuets. Bach was as far from many of his contemporaries as Mahler
: from Haydn, in many aspects of his musical language. Give me, pray one
: other "Siciliano" that uses the very harmonic language Bach employed in
: composing his SMP beginning.

Well, finally we agree about *something* re the SMP.... (Just think how
deadly performances of Chopin's waltzes would be if they were merely to be
danced to.)

: This "SMP's No. 1 is a Siciliano and Sicilianos are necessarily not slow,

: therefor SMP's No. 1 is necessarily not slow" is, IMHO, a false syllogism,
: exposed as such within two species of fallacy: the historicist and the
: collectivist. The historicist fallacy considers Bach's historic
: inclusion to the "Baroque category" as preponderant in front of his
: unique, historic *and trans-historic*, musical personality. The
: collectivist fallacy tries to "keep Bach in line" with many of his
: contemporaries, meritorious composers without a doubt, some of them more
: than meritorious, but NOT "Bachs".

I'm not sure it's an example of either of those mistakes (I dare say one
could equally well argue that apparent sicilianos shouldn't be fast in
other composers' music in similar contexts). There are two (at least)
different questions here: is Bach's music (un)like his contemporaries' in
important ways?; and is it likely that Bach's music was performed in much
the same way that other baroque music was played? I think one can
simultaneously maintain without contradiction that his music in a
different class, that it was nevertheless played in the same general style
as other contemporary music but that this does not entail that we should
perform it in that way (to the extent we can ever know what that was), and
that merely to classify something as a siciliano (or waltz or minuet or
bouree etc.) is not, without more, to explain how it should be performed.

Simon

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/3/00

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[about siciliano characteristics in SMP's first movement]:

> Of course
> Note
> the 12/8 meter
> the stepwise motion
> the frequent occurence of the rhytm quarter eighth eighth eighth eighth
> the harmonic pulse on the dotted quarter (or is it quaver)
> and you are there.
> These are the typical attributes of a sicialiano.

Mostly correct, if I may say so. Why mostly? The harmonic pulse, IMO, is
irregular [dotted half-note = DH, dotted quarter-note = DQ]:

DH, DH, DQ, DQ, DH, DH, DQ, DQ, DH, DH etc.

somehow against -- or at least a kind of "underground varying" of -- the
siciliano apparence.

But even ignoring that point of contention (harmonic pulse is
interpretable in accordance with what one considers "real" harmonic steps
or "harmonic ornaments", hope that makes sense), so even ignoring that:
instead of abstracting the (undeniable) elements of siciliano in this
piece, did you try to detect the compositional elements that particularize
this piece, among many other vaguely describable as sicilianos? In this
respect, a closer listening to Mengelberg, once the burden of the
preconceived "how a(my) siciliano has to be" thrown away, *may* be
enlightening.

*Perhaps* Mengelberg didn't understand "Baroque music". For my money, he
surely understood Bach.

regards,
SG

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/3/00

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Simon Roberts:

> Well, finally we agree about *something* re the SMP.... (Just think how
> deadly performances of Chopin's waltzes would be if they were merely to be
> danced to.)

Another excellent example, yes.

> : This "SMP's No. 1 is a Siciliano and Sicilianos are necessarily not slow,
> : therefor SMP's No. 1 is necessarily not slow" is, IMHO, a false syllogism,
> : exposed as such within two species of fallacy: the historicist and the
> : collectivist. The historicist fallacy considers Bach's historic
> : inclusion to the "Baroque category" as preponderant in front of his
> : unique, historic *and trans-historic*, musical personality. The
> : collectivist fallacy tries to "keep Bach in line" with many of his
> : contemporaries, meritorious composers without a doubt, some of them more
> : than meritorious, but NOT "Bachs".
>

> There are two (at least)
> different questions here: is Bach's music (un)like his contemporaries' in
> important ways?;

It is a subjective matter, without a doubt. In my "Bach experience", that
is very much so. Moreover, I believe that what is unique in Bach (and,
even obviously without an encyclopedic knowledge of the music of the era,
I know enough music of other "Baroque" composers to be able to understand
what I am saying), so what is unique in Bach is much more important for
me, as a listener, that what is "common Baroque practice". I guess I could
even name a couple of Bach pieces where "Homer nods", so to speak, and his
music is less distinguishable from "mainstream Baroque music". However, in
most of his music, in more than half of his WTC fugues, for instance, I
found something that I didn't find before or after, in Bach or other
composer. That makes, for me at least, (almost) every Bach fugue so
precious. If not, why not playing Czerny fugues (he wrote some, and not
bad for that, scholastically at least).

> and is it likely that Bach's music was performed in much
> the same way that other baroque music was played? I think one can
> simultaneously maintain without contradiction that his music in a
> different class, that it was nevertheless played in the same general style
> as other contemporary music but that this does not entail that we should
> perform it in that way (to the extent we can ever know what that was), and
> that merely to classify something as a siciliano (or waltz or minuet or
> bouree etc.) is not, without more, to explain how it should be performed.

I risk cajolery accusations, but I have to say that the paragraph above
expresses very well what I have in mind.

regards,
SG

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 3, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/3/00

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IMO picking out the Siciliano-like quality in the music at hand (SMP
opening chorus) may lend a different interpretative angle than done
otherwise.
There can be more "swing" in the rhythmic execution and the general tone
can be more elegiac than downright (or shall we say ritually) tragic. The
temporal meaning in the text and music is multi-layered: retrospection and
exposition on top of each other: it justifies both dramatic and poetic
approaches
without necessarily causing a conflict.

The Adagio in Mozart K. 488 is an example that comes to my mind.

> samir ghiocel golescu (gol...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>
> : I apologize, but IMO referring to that piece as "simply" being a
> : siciliano, *having* to be as all sicilianos are "supposed" to be, is as
> : little supportable as claiming that all symphonic "allegros" in sonata
> : form have to be played as Haydn's Allegro from Symphony xx(x) are
supposed
> : to be played. The fact that *one* of the roots of certain forms or
genres
> : Bach used might be found in certain types of dance music does not mean
at
> : all, IMO, that the way BACH (not "Baroque Music in general", whatever
that
> : may be) used them *has* to oblige the parameters those forms of dance
> : music evolved within, generally speaking. Not more so than Mahler's
"minuets"
> : "have" to be performed in the same way (tempos, inner tension etc.) as
> : Haydn's minuets. Bach was as far from many of his contemporaries as
Mahler
> : from Haydn, in many aspects of his musical language. Give me, pray one
> : other "Siciliano" that uses the very harmonic language Bach employed in
> : composing his SMP beginning.
>

Raymond Hall

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May 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/4/00

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samir ghiocel golescu wrote:
>
> On 3 May 2000, Andrys D Basten wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.10005...@ux11.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> > samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > >On Tue, 2 May 2000, Hou Fang-Lin wrote:
> > >
> > >> Guess again. Traverso is more like it.
> > >
> > >I see. Try to learn an instrument than.
> >
> >
> > This is an answer? Leave it to a budding pianist to be putting
> > down another's instrument though. That's the level to which the
> > forum goes these days with some.
>
> You are very objective in pointing out the level "some" reached,
> forgetting all the s...s and the concentration camps kappos I was greeted
> with.

As you sow shall you reap. Anyway, what is wrong with the truth? And who
is "some"?

How was life inside the Mikulska doghouse - bit cramped was it?

Regards, # RMCR Contributor's WebSites Compilation
# Favourite Conductors, and Doris Day Pages
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
Ray, Sydney

Raymond Hall

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May 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/4/00

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samir ghiocel golescu wrote:
>
> On Thu, 4 May 2000, Raymond Hall wrote:
>

> > As you sow shall you reap.
>

> I tell you for the xth time: I have never insulted you and try to refrain
> from continuously insulting me. Do not abuse, please, my patience.
>

But you indirectly referred to me. Therefore I replied. And will
continue to do so until you cease your senseless "sniping".

>[more ridiculous Golescu blather snipped ....]

> I think, speaking of "level", that there is the time that this entire line
> of "dialogue" be buried, for good.
>

Good. Then let it be so. And please refrain from directly, or
indirectly, referring to me. I can promise you, sincerely, I will do the
same for you.

RLH

Andrys D Basten

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May 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/4/00

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In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu>,

samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:

>> >On Tue, 2 May 2000, Hou Fang-Lin wrote:
>> >
>> >> Guess again. Traverso is more like it.
>> >
>> >I see. Try to learn an instrument than.
>>
>>
>> This is an answer? Leave it to a budding pianist to be putting
>> down another's instrument though. That's the level to which the
>> forum goes these days with some.
>
>You are very objective in pointing out the level "some" reached,
>forgetting all the s...s and the concentration camps kappos I was greeted
>with.

Who can feel sorry for someone who seems to seek out trouble
being oversensitive when some don't appreciate your idols in the
way you do while writing putdowns of others' favorites willy
nilly, or just going on the attack without letup toward someone
whose writings you didn't like. You know: sow:reap or seek:find
or live by:die by etc etc
So many apt homilies - so little time!

>All for a joke on your behalf which, if in poor taste, was not
>uttered with malignant thoughts, but for which, if perceived as such, I
>apologize to you.

If we had been very friendly in the past when posting re the
many relentless attacks on another member of this tribe, it might have been
seen as a joke; otherwise it looked like yet another jibe, when
I was hardly around lately. Thanks for the above.

> I found many times
>your contributions useful, not to speak about the fact that I also used
>the v-store(s). (-:

Then obviously you can't be all bad! ;)

>What you say above makes perfect sense to me, as a scriptural
>interpretation--

... the basis for Bach's setting it to music and using the many
"Who? "What? cries punctuating the procession. He doesn't
ignore this aspect of the Passion and actually it is a VERY key
aspect of it, as I explained in the last note.

>I don't believe though that Bach was so much concerned
>with expressing the ordinary life sounds, but the grief, the pain.

We're in the realm of beliefs now and this is often colored by
what we prefer to think or what affects US most. To me, he was
obviously interested in portraying both. There is no pain in
this story without the ordinary, as this is what was fought.
Ignorance, inability to comprehend, the bustle of life vs the
mystery of life.

>Again,
>the verses used in SMP's first piece, interpreted in their wholeness,
>connote awareness of the incoming drama--see please what I've already
>written.

Samir, I already did... and I spoke to that in my first post
as well. We're talking interpretations here and what is behind
them. Yours will have validity but not likely more so than
other thoughtful looks at what Bach was doing, saying with the
material he used and how he used it. There's no certainty here
about how it -must- be performed but we can learn from what it
is that moves others of us and the varied reasons for the
different types of performances. Doesn't mean any of us have to
like one or the other of them.

>> Still, I enjoy both approaches I've heard. Still wondering if
>> I can hear something that expresses the whole a bit more.
>
>Did you ever listen to Mengelberg?

Not yet. But then I like Klemperer's as well as HIP versions
so if I'm ever able to hear other versions for free (usually on
the radio) then I will.

- A

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May 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/4/00

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> It is probably not that ludicrous or paradoxical at all to find some
> "happy" dimension in the SMP opening chorus.

Between different Christian "branches" there are immense theological
-- and teleological! -- interpretive discrepancies. The way Christianism
is represented in United States, mainly in neo-Protestant churches, has
little to do with Lutheranism--the Christian vision Bach was imbued with.
In the Lutheran anamnesis of the Passions [pathos=sufferance] there is
little place for the Resurrection Joy that follows, but we don't "know"
yet. We actually deal with the Last Supper (first Eucharist), Betrayal,
Trial, Condemnation, Torture, Painful Death. Is there any happiness?
Bach's Matthaus-Passion goes very little beyond the actual moment of
Jesus' death and deals more with the Incarnated Suffering Christ than with
the Gloria *Dei* -- let's not confuse that with the economy of a Mass,
where the "incarnatus" and "resurrexit" are differently (i.e. much
better) balanced. Of course everyone has the right to his own
interpretive aporias, not indefinitely and unconfinably so, though.

regards,
SG

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/4/00

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I largely echo your points, Simon.

Exactly because sicilianos can be performed in a range of tempi without
necessarily having its expressive properties impaired, fastish or "boogie"
performances should not be dismissed out of hand. I mean, even if some
tempi make the music sound "happy" to some ears, they may make the
impression of a blissful swing to others, and, at that, nothing wrong at all
if the meaning of its lyrics is to be carefully considered.

My recollection is that the controversy on a "dancing" SMP started with
Harnoncourt's recording from the early seventies. An interesting point
about it is that, while its opening chorus is now slower than many of the
later HIP performances, it may still be the most literal of the lot re:
rhythmic articulation: some of the rest, like Hermann Max and
Herrweghe's, sound smoothed over in that department. Presumably that
has to do with the changing HIP attitude as to how to play a siciliano...

Simon Roberts <si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:8esk10$41r$1...@netnews.upenn.edu...

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00

to

Another fantastic post, Sybrand; many thanks--and more if you can
kindly provide the reference to the Eric Chafe article that you mentioned
here! regards,

Fang-Lin

Sybrand Bakker <pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:957469750.8229....@news.demon.nl...

> > elements may complement or contrast. It is probably not that

> > ludicrous or paradoxical at all to find some "happy" dimension
> > in the SMP opening chorus.
> >

Sybrand Bakker

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00

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Not article, book!!

Eric Chafe, Tonal Allegory in the vocal music of J.S. Bach, ISBN
0-520-05856-9.
It is expensive though, it costs some $80.

Hth,

Sybrand Bakker

Hou Fang-Lin <fh...@midway.uchicago.edu> schreef in berichtnieuws

7zzQ4.308$x3.3265@uchinews...

fh...@midway.uchicago.edu

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00

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I should have thought so; just today I saw this title referred to
in John Butt ed. Cambridge Companion to Bach, and I believe the Chafe
should be available at my school library. Thanks for the details
though and ISBN no., though!

Fang-Lin

In article <957533103.5631....@news.demon.nl>,

"Sybrand Bakker" <pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote:
> Not article, book!!
>
> Eric Chafe, Tonal Allegory in the vocal music of J.S. Bach, ISBN
> 0-520-05856-9.
> It is expensive though, it costs some $80.
>
> Hth,
>
> Sybrand Bakker
>
> Hou Fang-Lin <fh...@midway.uchicago.edu> schreef in berichtnieuws
> 7zzQ4.308$x3.3265@uchinews...
> > Another fantastic post, Sybrand; many thanks--and more if you can
> > kindly provide the reference to the Eric Chafe article that you
mentioned
> > here! regards,
> >
> > Fang-Lin
> >
> >

fh...@my-deja.com

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00

to

Kindly explain the joined use of lamb and bridegroom as figures
in the first chorus. The lamb was no doubt a symbol of sacrifice:
we see representations of the Lord's Lamb holding the Cross and
bleeding into a chalice. Did they, in either Christ's time
or Lutheran Germany, make a bridegroom carry a cross and then
sacrifice him on it? Don't tell me that weddings are about
deaths. Have a clue.

In article
<Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@ux13.cso.uiuc.edu>,

samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
>

> > It is probably not that ludicrous or paradoxical at all to find some
> > "happy" dimension in the SMP opening chorus.
>

> Between different Christian "branches" there are immense theological
> -- and teleological! -- interpretive discrepancies. The way
Christianism
> is represented in United States, mainly in neo-Protestant churches,
has
> little to do with Lutheranism--the Christian vision Bach was imbued
with.
> In the Lutheran anamnesis of the Passions [pathos=sufferance] there is
> little place for the Resurrection Joy that follows, but we don't
"know"
> yet. We actually deal with the Last Supper (first Eucharist),
Betrayal,
> Trial, Condemnation, Torture, Painful Death. Is there any happiness?
> Bach's Matthaus-Passion goes very little beyond the actual moment of
> Jesus' death and deals more with the Incarnated Suffering Christ than
with
> the Gloria *Dei* -- let's not confuse that with the economy of a
Mass,
> where the "incarnatus" and "resurrexit" are differently (i.e. much
> better) balanced. Of course everyone has the right to his own
> interpretive aporias, not indefinitely and unconfinably so, though.
>
> regards,
> SG
>
>

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00

to

> Kindly explain the joined use of lamb and bridegroom as figures
> in the first chorus. The lamb was no doubt a symbol of sacrifice:
> we see representations of the Lord's Lamb holding the Cross and
> bleeding into a chalice. Did they, in either Christ's time
> or Lutheran Germany, make a bridegroom carry a cross and then
> sacrifice him on it? Don't tell me that weddings are about
> deaths. Have a clue.

I am not at all a theologian or a specialist in interpreting the Bible.

It is obvious, though, if you study, even superficially, the presence
of the word "bridegroom" in St. Matthew's gospel, as related to Jesus,
(without divagating into discussing the same word as ambiguously used in
the Old Testament--starting with Exodus 4,25 -- the concept of "bridegroom
of blood", trough circumcision etc.), so if you study this presence it's
pretty obvious the word encapsulates a metaphor (Matthew 9, 14-15:
<<Then the disciples of John came to him, saying, "Why do we and the
Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?" And Jesus said to them,
"Can the wedding guests mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? The
days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they
will fast.>> See also Matthew 25, the parable of the ten maidens that went
to meet the bridegroom). More specifically, if you compare the passages
from Luke, Mark and John's Gospels that correspond to Matthew 9, the idea
of FAST AND MOURNING, in the day when the BRIDEGROOM is taken away from
his disciples and followers, is even more explicitly enunciated:

Mark 2:20:
<<The days will come, when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and
then they will fast in that day.>> That "day" is the Biblical day when
the Passions commence!

"Bridegroom" was one of the many "names" Jesus Christ was given or has
taken: Saviour, Son of Man, Son of God ... Its use in the first chorus of
SMP, in the absence of any other corroborative reasons of "joy", has
nothing to do with the happy wedding of, say, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, a
smiling mayor, rice, flowers, happy-faces painted on the "just married"
car etc.

It is true that, even in the (darker than others) Lutheran vision, "The
cause of Death He has undone" but not before dying Himself, dying not as
a quick act before Resurrection, but as a real, painful, complete death
assumed by Jesus Christ, with the whole of his human hypostasis.
Lutheranism (and not only) accentuates a lot, as far as I know, the
*concreteness* of the pain and of the death, precondition of the
intensity, of the genuineness itself of the Victory over Death thereafter.
Isn't that futile to search for one isolated word in order to attempt to
contradict the very eloquent meaning of the whole?

Good Friday is NOT YET Easter--is that simple. The fact that that Friday
is called "good" has, again, nothing to do with happiness.

regards,
SG

Francis

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00

to

"Simon Roberts" <si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote in message

news:8el5bd$f9b$1...@netnews.upenn.edu...
> for what it's worth he denies being a musicologist.

Well, who wouldn't?

> Jauntiness is in the ear of the beholder, of course

What mastery of the mixed metaphor!

-Charles

Francis

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00

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I see American "Culture" is getting to you :-)

"samir ghiocel golescu" <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@ux13.cso.uiuc.edu...
>
> > I recently celebrated the Unorthodox Easter with Herreweghe's rendering
>
> I've always thought that's *rending*. (-:
>
> > of Bach's Matthew Passion. Based on the latest Historically Informed
> > Performance, Herreweghe offers a radical interpretation of the Christian
> > drama. Gone is the agony and grief suggested by "Come ye daughters,
share my
> > mourning ... he himself his cross is bearing" and in its place a jaunty
> > opening chorus reflecting the joy of the liberating crucifixion. Jesus
will,
> > after all, rise again in three days bringing victory - and in the
meantime
> > the demons are happy. Purged of all negative emotions, this performance
can
> > be safely recommended for children everywhere.
>
> Not for average and over IQ-ed children. Disney does better.
>
> regards,
> SG
>

Francis

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00

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"Simon Roberts" <si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote in message

news:8elans$76i$2...@netnews.upenn.edu...

> samir ghiocel golescu (gol...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
> : >

> : > Jauntiness is in the ear of the beholder, of course. I wonder what
you
> : > make of Scherchen and Koussevitzky, who take a mere extra 10 and 30
> : > seconds respectively over the opening chorus.
>
> : It is NOT the tempo in itself, but the "pulse", the TACTUS [thank you,
> : Max], the phrasing.
>
> I dare say, but the original poster didn't explain. And as I suggested,
> it doesn't sound the least bit jaunty to me.

Before the entry of the violins, it's just very fast. But those violins, ...
the phraseology, ... the phrasing, ... the TACTUS (thank you Samir), it's
... er ... JAUNTY (Yes, that's the word!).

-Charles

Francis

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00

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"David Wesolowicz" <ddav...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:2DqP4.16461$g4.4...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> You can hear a one minute snippet for yourself from the Amazon site:
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002R0ZL/o/qid=957232367/sr=8-1/ref
> =aps_sr_cm_1_1/104-9254514-5989203
>
> Sounds jaunty to me. I'll take Klemperer - I'm in no hurry.

Yes, I like this version.

-Charles

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00

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One lives and learns; thanks, Sybrand.

Sybrand Bakker <pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote in message

news:957564957.22448....@news.demon.nl...
> In Lutheran theology the concept of 'unio mystica' existed.
> The highest state one could reach was a mystic union between a believer
and
> Christ.
> The bridegroom symbolism is derived from the Song of Songs which in many
> churches was not interpreted erotically, but spiritually, the bride being
> the church or the individual believer, the bridegroom being Christ.
> This concept lies at the heart of Picanders text, which is a dialogue
> between the Daughter of Zion (the bride) and the Faithful.
> Hence it is not strange, the second part opens with a verse from the Song
of
> Songs.
>
> About the Lamb:
> The sacrifice Jesus made is similar to the sacrifice enacted on Jom
Kippoer
> (the day of reconciliation), where a lamb originally was sent into the
> desert, later on killed/sacrificed.
> The lamb also plays part at Pesach (Passover) where all Jews are directed
to
> smear the blood of a lamb at their door.
> More importantly, there is that passage in Beresjiet (Genesis) 22, where
> Abram sacrifices Jitschak (Isaac), Isaac bearing the wood for the fire.
> The link between the O Lamm Gottes and the Picander text is clear: similar
> notions appear: our sin, Jesus patience.
> Also: this chorale was the official german translation of the Agnus Dei,
the
> last part of the ordinary. The text is a cry for mercry with us sinners,
> which is quite appropiate here.
> The more you reflect on this music, the more you disagree with the remark
> 'beautiful music on silly texts'
>
> Regards,
>
> Sybrand Bakker
>
>
> <fh...@my-deja.com> schreef in berichtnieuws 8ev7kk$jf9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

> > Kindly explain the joined use of lamb and bridegroom as figures
> > in the first chorus. The lamb was no doubt a symbol of sacrifice:
> > we see representations of the Lord's Lamb holding the Cross and
> > bleeding into a chalice. Did they, in either Christ's time
> > or Lutheran Germany, make a bridegroom carry a cross and then
> > sacrifice him on it? Don't tell me that weddings are about
> > deaths. Have a clue.
> >

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00

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On Sat, 6 May 2000, Sybrand Bakker wrote:

> The bridegroom symbolism is derived from the Song of Songs which in many
> churches was not interpreted erotically, but spiritually, the bride being
> the church or the individual believer, the bridegroom being Christ.
> This concept lies at the heart of Picanders text, which is a dialogue
> between the Daughter of Zion (the bride) and the Faithful.

Quite so. I started with the first Bible reference to the bridegroom, but
I dare say the connection with the Song of Songs has to be more
significant.

The "biblical corolary" of this association [lamb-wedding] might be found
in Revelation 19,7: "Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For
the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.",
interpretable (the bride) as the redeemable community of the faithful,
not to forget the subsequent sentence of the angel: "Blessed are those who
are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!"

However, SMP treats the fate of the Holy Lamb in the darkest point of
the Christian epos, at the most vulnerable point Divinity ever
assumed, and long before the eschatological triumph of the Revelation...

> The more you reflect on this music, the more you disagree with the remark
> 'beautiful music on silly texts'

Yes, absolutely. Excuse my pun, they already picked much too much on
Picander.

regards,
SG

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/5/00

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On Sat, 6 May 2000 fh...@my-deja.com wrote:

> Take a look at Sybrand's explanation of "bridegroom" as in
> connection of the Daughter of Zion (the one that is most
> relevant here as far as I am concerned), and then tell me
> that the mystical union between the Church and Christ is
> not a bliss and joy but some painful business.

I "took a look" at that explanation--and certainly Mr. Bakker knows what
he is talking about. Your inferences are wrong though, IMO. SMP is not
about the mystical union between the historically grown church and the
transfigured, "complete" Christ. SMP is mainly about THE *PASSIONS*
OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, revived, relived in their painful authenticity
and concreteness. Even the catholics--and I dare say the lutherans
at least as much as the catholics--consider, religiously speaking, Jesus's
death as being from "my, my fault, only mine". The blessing of Jesus's
light (of course that for Christians in general, Jesus is a blessing,
just that doesn't have to be necessarily expressed in that particular
music!!) must be truly and thoroughly expiated trough genuine, terrible,
painful remorse.

Then, "mystical union" cannot be divided in "bliss and joy" vs. "painful
business". The intensity of the mystical union, as documented in
history of the saints (within the denominations that accepted the concept
of "saints"), and, broadly speaking, in history of those that claimed
mystical communion with Christ, at least until Bach's time, was mostly
either painful (v. the phenomenon of stigmata etc.) or ultimately blissful
at the strata of transcending sufferance.

Again why try to isolate one or two words from the beginning chorus and
speculate over their historic connotations? We have the SMP text itself,
and nothing in it helps the "happy" interpretation of the "Bridegroom".

As far as I know, SMP's text does not commence, say:

"Come, you daughters
Help me bring a hymn of joy to the lamb
Happy he made us
Happy we sing today
In mystical union
In the blissful day of Good Friday"

case in which you would have no argument from me,

but:

"Come, you daughters
Help me lament ...
the Bridegroom
like a lamb [i.e. about to be sacrificed]
...behold our guilt
out of love and graciousness
himself carrying the wood of the Cross
O guiltless Lamb of God
slaughtered on the stem of the cross
always found patient,
how despised You were.
You have born all sin,
else we must have despaired.
how despised You were (...)
have mercy upon us, O Jesus"

That Jesus is called alternatively "Lamb" and "Bridegroom" is subsidiary
to the very clearly and univocally interpretable text, that talks about
LAMENT, GUILT, CROSS, SLAUGHTER, Jesus being DESPISED, eventually Jesus's
mercy (in front of the terrible guilt) being invoked. E.g.: the sentence
"The Most Beloved was spitted" would speak about Jesus being spitted at,
not about Jesus being the most beloved!

In front of the textual evidence, the fact that one word, Bridegroom, is
tractable, in theologic comments, to the Song of Songs, does not mean
that, *in SMP context*, that one word conjured happy connotations,
sicilianos or no sicilianos apart. Humble compassion and abject remorse in
front of the condemnation of the Holy Lamb [expiatory innocence], yes--see
the (almost) immediately following Chorale:

<<Beloved Jesus,
what have you done wrong
that they have pronounced
so hard a sentence?
What is your guilt,
into what sort of misdeeds
have you fallen?>>

all of which is, again, a rhetoric, indirectly expressed indignation in
front of the terrible fate of the one that, in Christian perspective, was
born and has died without sin.

regards,
SG

Sybrand Bakker

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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In Lutheran theology the concept of 'unio mystica' existed.
The highest state one could reach was a mystic union between a believer and
Christ.

The bridegroom symbolism is derived from the Song of Songs which in many
churches was not interpreted erotically, but spiritually, the bride being
the church or the individual believer, the bridegroom being Christ.
This concept lies at the heart of Picanders text, which is a dialogue

between the Daughter of Zion (the bride) and the Faithful.
Hence it is not strange, the second part opens with a verse from the Song of
Songs.

About the Lamb:
The sacrifice Jesus made is similar to the sacrifice enacted on Jom Kippoer
(the day of reconciliation), where a lamb originally was sent into the
desert, later on killed/sacrificed.
The lamb also plays part at Pesach (Passover) where all Jews are directed to
smear the blood of a lamb at their door.
More importantly, there is that passage in Beresjiet (Genesis) 22, where
Abram sacrifices Jitschak (Isaac), Isaac bearing the wood for the fire.
The link between the O Lamm Gottes and the Picander text is clear: similar
notions appear: our sin, Jesus patience.
Also: this chorale was the official german translation of the Agnus Dei, the
last part of the ordinary. The text is a cry for mercry with us sinners,
which is quite appropiate here.

The more you reflect on this music, the more you disagree with the remark
'beautiful music on silly texts'

Regards,

Francis

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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<fh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8ev7kk$jf9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...

In the exoteric Christian tradition, Jesus (Son of Man) is seen as a
spotless lamb, a blood sacrifice to God according to Old Testament
tradition. In Bach's MP, he carries the cross and symbolically carries the
sins of Mankind. Liberated from sin by the blood of the Lamb, the Church
(Bride) is able to wed Jesus Son of God (Bridegroom).

In esoteric Christian tradition, the personal ego (Son of Man) is sacrificed
(crucified) to achieve higher consciousness (Son of God). In this view,
Jesus is seen as prototypical and all must likewise carry a cross (Matthew
16:24). Certain texts on Alchemy, e.g., the Chemical Wedding of Christian
Rosenkreutz, reflect this view.

-Charles

fh...@my-deja.com

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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Take a look at Sybrand's explanation of "bridegroom" as in
connection of the Daughter of Zion (the one that is most
relevant here as far as I am concerned), and then tell me
that the mystical union between the Church and Christ is

not a bliss and joy but some painful business. It's
not the Easter kind of happiness, for which Bach would have
(and had) written something more exuberant, but the bitter-
sweet kind that expresses itself wonderfully when paced like a
Siciliano.

In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu>,

samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>

> (lengthy quotes from the Bible cut)

> Good Friday is NOT YET Easter--is that simple. The fact that that
Friday
> is called "good" has, again, nothing to do with happiness.
>

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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Note "Bridegroom" is not one isolated word in the SMP chorus--
there are "daughters" i.e. Daughters of Zion involved as the ones
who'd engage Him as the Union is being fulfilled. Hence my
collaboration of Sybrand's exegesis on SMP's many references to
the Song of Songs, whose flavor of sensualism is not in doubt. It
is up to you to leave out the metaphysical implications in the text
(do they have to spell out everything for you or it does not exist?),
but I see no point of Picander using the Lamb and the Bridegroom
so early on, if he does not intend his account of Christ's painful
Passion to be read with meanings of redemption and fulfilled love
all along. As Andrys says in an early post, beyond a point
it's all a matter of belief. I do not believe that SMP, and above all
its opening movement, is constructed as a realistic ("authentic") or
objective ("concrete") documentary ONLY--figurative / iconic
symbolisms occur in the very beginning as some sort of thematic
counterpoint. Finally, I believe redemption and love (despite at the
price of pain and loss) qualify as happiness. Can't care less if
you don't--so whether you think SMP is about the "mystical union"
or not (tellingly tagged with "IMO") is really not my business.

samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@ux12.cso.uiuc.edu...

>
> On Sat, 6 May 2000 fh...@my-deja.com wrote:
>

> > Take a look at Sybrand's explanation of "bridegroom" as in
> > connection of the Daughter of Zion (the one that is most
> > relevant here as far as I am concerned), and then tell me
> > that the mystical union between the Church and Christ is
> > not a bliss and joy but some painful business.
>

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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> Note "Bridegroom" is not one isolated word in the SMP chorus--
> there are "daughters" i.e. Daughters of Zion involved as the ones
> who'd engage Him as the Union is being fulfilled.

Yes, "daughters", who are called to help to *LAMENT* the bridegroom, for
now. [Unions weren't popular yet--they became later, especially in US.(-:]

> Hence my
> collaboration of Sybrand's exegesis on SMP's many references to
> the Song of Songs, whose flavor of sensualism is not in doubt.

Many references in that first piece???

For the initial chorus, the "many references" seems kind of a fat syntagm
when all there is seems to be reduced to the word "daughters..." Bach, as
far as I know, did not put on music the Song of Songs, so the reference to
its sensualism is completely gratuitous as regards the initial SMP chorus,
even if one word (image) from its text is arguably tractable from the Song
of Songs. We were trough that.

> It is up to you to leave out the metaphysical implications in the text
> (do they have to spell out everything for you or it does not exist?),

Sorry, it is not that, too earthly creature, I would despise the metaphysic
depths superior beings have easily access to (and I'd stick to mere
vulgarities)--I just oddly prefer Bach's metaphysics. I also do not expect
to see all of the immense, complex, contradictory Christian wisdom and
range of feelings summarized in one piece of music. I read what I
read and before superposing my speculations on a text, I try to understand
what that text is saying. Human reading is subjective anyway, even without
"metaphysically" asserting that concretely bearing the cross is sweet,
being slaughtered on the cross is happiness etc. With this line of
thinking, the later "God, God, why have you forsaken me?" and the "crying
loud" should be metaphysicized into a song of joy...

> but I see no point of Picander using the Lamb and the Bridegroom
> so early on, if he does not intend his account of Christ's painful
> Passion to be read with meanings of redemption and fulfilled love
> all along.

Picander is not "using the Lamb and the Bridegroom" by themselves, with
a separate, self-sufficient semantic field. He is "calling" Jesus Christ
using poetic periphrases, we already were trough that. He was obviously
using the art of expressive circumlocutions.

> I do not believe that SMP, and above all
> its opening movement, is constructed as a realistic ("authentic") or
> objective ("concrete") documentary

Authentic doesn't mean "realistic" to me, but genuine, sincere,
substantial.

As well, concrete is not "objective", but all that can be more subjective,
lively, heartfelt. For instance , is concrete eating "objective"? Nope, a
clear food recipe is objective, the taste of real food is terrifically
subjective and vivid. Then, of course, you may eat orange and pretend it
is pineapple but that's a different story.

I also never spoke about "documentary"--Christ's drama *is* seen trough
the eyes of one of the greatest artists humanity was blessed with,
strongly lyrical and subjective, I mean, but not transforming the black in
white and the white in black. You could, with the same chances, try to
convince people that *Die Familie Schroffenstein* is a comedy and *Les
Fourberies de Scapin* the darkest imaginable tragedy.

> Finally, I believe redemption and love (despite at the
> price of pain and loss) qualify as happiness.

Yeah, I am sure that, say, a good (qualifying as religiously *redeemable*)
mother (full of *love* for her child), a mother that saw her child
butchered in war, feels a lot of happiness, "despite at the price of
pain and loss"... With such a stretch, everything could qualify as
happiness.

I wonder what should we say about the Italian Concerto, then, or about the
Preludes in Fugues in D Major (WTC I and II). Probably *they* are tragic
and somber....

> Can't care less if you don't.

This was the best argument of all--I am finally convinced! Good night...
or Gute Nacht. (-:

regards,
SG

Matthew Silverstein

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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Samir wrote:

> I "took a look" at that explanation--and certainly Mr. Bakker knows what
> he is talking about. Your inferences are wrong though, IMO. SMP is not
> about the mystical union between the historically grown church and the
> transfigured, "complete" Christ. SMP is mainly about THE *PASSIONS*
> OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, revived, relived in their painful authenticity
> and concreteness.

And we all know how important authenticity is . . .

Matty

him...@my-deja.com

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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I heard Herreweghe and his forces - including the same soloists as in
their recent recording - perform St Matthew Passion in London some two
years ago, and found the performance profoundly moving, and utterly
convincing. The recording doesn't capture quite the same intensity of
emotion, but unlike yourself, I do find myself moved by it. It doesn't,
of course, mean that I shall stop listening the the much more sombre
recording by Klemperer. But I don't think Herreweghe's very different
conception of the piece necessarily means it is lacking in emotional
depth.

To take an analogy from the visual arts: Botticelli painted the
Deposition of Christ in rich, vibrant colours; Titian painted the same
scene in dark, sombre, and subdued colours. They are very different
interpretations of the scene, but I don't think it makes much sense to
say that Botticelli's vision is less emotionally intense than Titian's:
the emotions are differently depicted - that is all.

In article <390e...@news.datacomm.ch>,

"Francis" <Fra...@datacomm.ch> wrote:
> I recently celebrated the Unorthodox Easter with Herreweghe's

rendering of

> Bach's Matthew Passion. Based on the latest Historically Informed
> Performance, Herreweghe offers a radical interpretation of the
Christian
> drama. Gone is the agony and grief suggested by "Come ye daughters,
share my
> mourning ... he himself his cross is bearing" and in its place a
jaunty
> opening chorus reflecting the joy of the liberating crucifixion.
Jesus will,
> after all, rise again in three days bringing victory - and in the
meantime
> the demons are happy. Purged of all negative emotions, this
performance can
> be safely recommended for children everywhere.
>
>

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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Guten Morgen :)
I was listening to SMP again, and have found out where the Daughters of Zion
have gone after they are summoned in the first chorus (by yet another
Daughter methink):
into all concerted pieces, the so-called "madrigals" in the Passion
Oratorio.
Most of these arias are cast in the form of direct, personal address to
Christ, and
the identity of the singing character in each case is never spelled out. If
one understands
the common association that the Daughters of Zion=individual believers of
the Church
regardless of time and space, what makes up SMP (at least in its arias and
choruses)
is rather obvious: spiritual communions with Christ himself, at the very
moment of
his Passion and based on the graces of sacred love and redemption. This
explains why
the rhetoric of SMP is really that of the Mystical Union, from beginning to
end.

Francis

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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"Andrys D Basten" <and...@netcom.com> wrote in message
>
> I'll modify a couple of recent posts about this to see if my
> take makes sense to anyone, as I love this piece, in various
> choices of tempi. Klemperer's opening IS stirring and
> emphasizes the heavy lament, with a kind of hindsight -- the
> listeners are aware of what happens and it's summarized in
> advance for us in the tempo and weight of that prelude (as well
> as expressed in some of the text. I keep this LP set because it
> does still move me.

Compared with Herreweghe (II), Gardiner, Furtwängler, Munchinger and Rilling
(I), the Klemperer opening move me most!

> As you know all too well -- in the period-performance
> renditions, the tempo for the opening tends to be faster,
> causing some listeners reared on the Klemperer to be very put
> out by its seeming shallowness and lack of a feeling of
> emotional loss.

Personally, I was reared on Münchinger and Rilling, but, of course, agree
about the shallowness and lack of feeling resulting from HIPocrisy!

> Here's my own summary of the defense for the newer (to us)
> approach (much discussed through the years on various forums).
>
> The opening, when we read the text carefully, has as much to
> do with the marketplace as it does a funeral. It's not so
> much 'dance' - as some complain - (though baroque music just
> tends to be based on dance) but the pulse of life, and here we
> have people who are seeing Jesus marched through the streets but
> who have no idea why, nor who he is. What? Who? is the
> continuing voiced question. The movement of daily life is the
> focus, interrupted by these interjections, as people going about
> their normal day wonder what is going on.

The HIPocrites should note that the lyrics of the opening song, in literal
translation, include the words "Look him of love and graciousness wood to
the cross himself carry". Jesus is NOT marching, he is carrying wood which
has to bear his weight. Indeed, in Bach's metaphor, the wood represents our
sins - our sins are very great, so the wood is very heavy! The procession
moves very slowly!

The rhythm in the opening is a Heart Beat representing Jesus in his humanity
in the supreme act of the heart - "Greater love has no man ...". At
Klemperer's tempo, one can also hear the pulse of the breathing of Jesus -
again reflecting his humanity. It is perverse scholarship, that turns this
into a dance!

> In other words, the opening-scene/play is performed as if we are
> back there, in the present, living/re-living that Passion-story,
> rather than only remembering the ending of that story or even
> noting it in advance though we sure have plenty of clues.

The happy ending is out of scope, but the metaphysical basis for the horror
is not.

> So, rather than the lament we're used to hearing from
> Klemperer (which I love), we're hearing something more like a
> play -- the movement of notes now based on the other part of the
> text of Bach's composition. I think this is certainly a valid
> interpretation of the music, even if what we're used to is valid
> also, in another way - the Klemperer a lamentation based on what
> we know is ahead, even if the people exclaiming 'Who? What?'
> have no idea and at this point in the re-enacted Passion don't
> care that much.

The opening words translate as "Come you daughters help me to lament", so
it is a lament!

> My own preferred performance of the opening to the St. Matthew
> would combine both approaches, as both are found in the music.
> All in minor, and in one of the most beautiful series of
> progressions we'll ever hear, we're told that behind the hurly
> burly and the bzzz about who that is and what is happening, is a
> universal horror story of what man will to our best and how
> easily we can do it.

Universal horror, yes - it is perverse to see this as dance music!

> So, I guess what I would like in another version is a somewhat
> less leaden tempo, using instead the tension of the lines but
> not short-shrifting the underlying sorrow of the storyteller,
> while we also hear the sounds of ordinary life, of innocence and
> curiosity, of people not yet touched by what is happening.

On the other hand, the leaden tempo forces the bored rationale mind to
withdraw and allows this monumental music to achieve its transcendent
purpose!

-Charles

Sybrand Bakker

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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Francis <Fra...@datacomm.ch> schreef in berichtnieuws
3914...@news.datacomm.ch...
The HIPocrites [rest snipped]

Could you please save this language for other newsgroups?
Or do you expect replies like 'Francis responded with his usual bogus'

Just asking....

Sybrand Bakker

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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> And we all know how important authenticity is . . .
>
> Matty

Good morning,

During past times in my corner of the world, a strange language phenomenon
was noticed: because everything, from the elementary truths to the
composition of butter, was falsified, when people meant to say that
something was "authentically" that something, they repeated the word,
because it was known that the "butter" was made from many other things
than ordinary milk. E.g.: "Imagine, I found today some butter-butter and
also some chocolate-chocolate" etc.

In the same way, I'd say that "authenticity-authenticity" *is* very
important.

regards,
SG

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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I would like to say, as a comment on Herreweghe's rather
sensual approach to SMP, something that often escapes the attention
of those who appreciate this music. Not until this morning, when I
looked again at some linenotes written by Alberto Basso, that I realized
that Bach's Passion was originally performed as part of the liturgy
for Good Friday Vespers. The most famous of all Vespers settings in
the Baroque period, by Monteverdi, contains several sacred concerti
for solo voices that envelope the more "proper" psalms with an affecting
ring of sensuality. Now, in light of Sybrand Bakkar's comments (see
his earlier posts in the thread) regarding the references to the Song
of Songs in St. Matthew Passion, I cannot but notice some parallels that
present themselves in Monteverdi's Vespers, notably in the concerti that
are similarly positioned as Bach's arias. The way I see them, these are
some kind of silver linings to the other, more dramatic, parts of the whole,
and it would be hard to imagine that either of composers, sensitive as they
always were to the words they set, would have wanted to except those
interpretations of their music that bring out more liveliness and color.

him...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8f16th$la3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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Very interesting; can you provide an approximate date for the
"Chemtical Wedding of Chrisitian Rosenkreutz"? Thanks.

Fang-lin

Francis wrote in message <3913...@news.datacomm.ch>...

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/6/00

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> To purge the Matthew Passion of unauthentic Brahmsian artefacts, they do
> it like Mozart ;-)

What's worse, like *unauthentic* Mozart... (no smiley)

Francis

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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"Hou Fang-Lin" <fh...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:EbZQ4.399$x3.5096@uchinews...

> Very interesting; can you provide an approximate date for the
> "Chemtical Wedding of Chrisitian Rosenkreutz"? Thanks.

The Fama indicating the existence of the Rosicrucian Brotherhood was
published in 1614, while the Confessio indicating the dawning of a new
Reformation was published in 1615. The Chemical Wedding, containing the
Hermetic allegory, was first published in 1616.

Original editions:
1) "Chymische Hochzeit Christiani Rosencreutz, Anno 1459". Strasburg:
Lazarus Zetzner, 1616.
2) "The Hermeticke Romance", or "The Chymical Wedding". Written in High
Dutch by C.R., translated by Ezechiel Foxcroft, London, 1690.

Commentaries:
1) Brotoffer, Radtichs. Elucidarius Major. Luneburg, 1617.
2) C.V.M.V.S Practica Leonis Viridis. Halle, 1619.
3) Schweighardt, Theophilus. Speculum Sophicum Rhodo-Stauroticum.
Constantiensem, 1618.

Bach's connection with Luneburg is worth noting!

-Charles

Francis

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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"samir ghiocel golescu" <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in message

news:Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@ux7.cso.uiuc.edu...

To purge the Matthew Passion of inauthentic Brahmsian artefacts, they do it
like Mozart ;-)

Andrys D Basten

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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In article <957469750.8229....@news.demon.nl>,
Sybrand Bakker <pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote:
>The ultimate reason (following Eric Chafe) is the central 'theme' of the SMP
>(according to Chafe, and I agree)
>'Aus Liebe will mein Heyland sterben'.
>Doing so, He redeems our sins, and you can't possibly write a piece to this
>which is completely sad

It's bittersweet, yes ...

And while the opening calls for lamenting, it also is
portraying quite vividly the atmosphere of the present (as
passions inherently do) as Jesus is being brought along and the
clueless crowd is loudly wondering what is going on..

>Using a passacaglia for the opening chorus would probably spoil the notions
>of redemption and salvation. After all even in the SMP one could talk about
>'cross and crown'

Good point.

- A

--
Andrys Basten, CNE http://www.andrys.com/ PC Network Support
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Francis

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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"samir ghiocel golescu" <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in message

news:Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu...
>
> > To purge the Matthew Passion of unauthentic Brahmsian artefacts, they do
> > it like Mozart ;-)
>

> What's worse, like *unauthentic* Mozart... (no smiley)
>

I had thought the Mozartian emotional palette ranged from "What a jolly
world this is" to "Looks like it might rain tonight" (a late experiment
found in his Requiem). But given the Herreweghe/MP example, you seem to be
suggesting there is more to the man?

Simon Roberts

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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Francis (Fra...@datacomm.ch) wrote:

: I had thought the Mozartian emotional palette ranged from "What a jolly

: world this is" to "Looks like it might rain tonight" (a late experiment
: found in his Requiem). But given the Herreweghe/MP example, you seem to
: be suggesting there is more to the man?

At least Francis is consistent.

Simon

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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On Sun, 7 May 2000, Francis wrote:

> "samir ghiocel golescu" <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
> >

> > > To purge the Matthew Passion of unauthentic Brahmsian artefacts, they do
> > > it like Mozart ;-)
> >
> > What's worse, like *unauthentic* Mozart... (no smiley)
> >

> I had thought the Mozartian emotional palette ranged from "What a jolly
> world this is" to "Looks like it might rain tonight" (a late experiment
> found in his Requiem). But given the Herreweghe/MP example, you seem to be
> suggesting there is more to the man?

Absolutely. Pardon me, but you may have blamed on Mozart what actually
pertained to different Mozartian "Herreweghes" and "Harnoncourts".

regards,
SG

(who also was partially opaque to Mozart's substance until he heard "The"
interpretations)

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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> : I had thought the Mozartian emotional palette ranged from "What a jolly

> : world this is" to "Looks like it might rain tonight" (a late experiment
> : found in his Requiem). But given the Herreweghe/MP example, you seem to
> : be suggesting there is more to the man?
>

> At least Francis is consistent.

Me too: if there were something most nightmarish than Herreweghe's Bach,
it *has* to be his Mozart -- oh, that horrendous C Minor Serenade...

regards,
SG

Matthew Westphal

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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"Hou Fang-Lin" <fh...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:

Interesting thought, Fang-Lin. However, Monteverdi's Vespers were
published for use specifically on feasts of the Virgin Mary. The
sensuous imagery of the Song of Songs had been used allegorically to
honor the Virgin (as Queen of Heaven -- and thus as Bride of God as
well as Mother of God) throughout the 16th century. So the parallels
with any music for Good Friday, for vespers or otherwise, would seem
very limited.

Otherwise I agree with most of your posts to this thread. How anyone
can hear the arias "Ich will dir mein Herze schenken", "Sehet hat die
Hand" and the B section of "Aus Liebe" and not understand that there is
joy at the Redemption mixed in with sorrow at the Crucifixion is beyond
me.

Matthew Westphal

Roland van Gaalen

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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Samir Ghiocel Golescu wrote:

: On Sun, 7 May 2000, Francis wrote:

:> "samir ghiocel golescu" <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
:> >
:> > > To purge the Matthew Passion of unauthentic Brahmsian artefacts,
:> > > they do it like Mozart ;-)
:> >
:> > What's worse, like *unauthentic* Mozart... (no smiley)

:> >
:> I had thought the Mozartian emotional palette ranged from "What a jolly

:> world this is" to "Looks like it might rain tonight" (a late experiment
:> found in his Requiem). But given the Herreweghe/MP example, you seem to be
:> suggesting there is more to the man?

: Absolutely. Pardon me, but you may have blamed on Mozart what actually
: pertained to different Mozartian "Herreweghes" and "Harnoncourts".
: [...]

In effect, you are saying that Herreweghe and Harnoncourt are incompetent
(but please correct me if I am wrong).

Do you believe this to be a fact, or is it just a matter of opinion?

How can you be sure that what sounds "unauthentic" or superficial to you
doesn't sound heartfelt to others?

Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam

Roland van Gaalen

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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In rec.music.classical.recordings Matthew Westphal wrote

: "Hou Fang-Lin" <fh...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:

: published for use specifically on feasts of the Virgin Mary. The

: sensuous imagery of the Song of Songs had been used allegorically to
: honor the Virgin (as Queen of Heaven -- and thus as Bride of God as
: well as Mother of God) throughout the 16th century. So the parallels
: with any music for Good Friday, for vespers or otherwise, would seem
: very limited.

: Otherwise I agree with most of your posts to this thread. How anyone
: can hear the arias "Ich will dir mein Herze schenken", "Sehet hat die
: Hand" and the B section of "Aus Liebe" and not understand that there is
: joy at the Redemption mixed in with sorrow at the Crucifixion is beyond
: me.

But joy in the opening chorus -- does that make any sense?

Imagine yourself to be in the position of a spectator who understands
what's going on. Doesn't joy seem rather inappropriate to you before the
crucifixion; or is Judas right to expedite the process? Aren't the pure of
heart at this stage supposed to hope that the crucifixion can be avoided?

Now, perhaps the opening chorus is sung by a group of individuals who are
not so much desperate as calculating -- in accordance with human nature,
no doubt, but in that case I suppose it should be sung so as to sound
phoney rather than sincere (whether joyful or sad).

To cut a long story short, Otto Klemperer got it right.

Of course I may be missing something; I am neither a believer (let alone a
theologian) nor a musicologist.

Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam

wes...@mail.utexas.edu

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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In article <957377519.26542....@news.demon.nl>, "Sybrand
Bakker" <pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote:

[Re. the opening chorus of the St Matthew Passion:]
> Whatever you want, the piece simply has all properties of a siciliano, it is
> a siciliano and siciliano's are necessarily not slow.

From Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians, 5th ed. (1955), s.v.
"SICILIANA (Siciliano, Sicilienne)":

"A dance rhythm closely allied to the pastorale. The name is derived from
a dance-form popular in Sicily.... Walther ('Lexicon', 1732) classes
these compositioins as canzonette, dividing them into Neapolitan and
Sicilian, the latter being like jigs written in rondo form, in 12-8 or 6-8
time. [BUT, N.B.:] The sicialiana was sometimes used for the slow
movement of suites and sonatas (as in Bach's violin sonata in G minor),
but is of more frequent occurence in vocal music, in which Handel,
following the great Italian masters, made great use of it."

Later, the author of the article adds: "The siciliana ... should be played
rather quickly, but not so fast as the pastorale, care being taken not to
drag the time...."

HOWEVER -- let us look at Handel's "Messiah" for his best-known sicilianos
(identified as such by musicologists like Paul Henry Lang and Winton Dean)
-- here are their titles with Handel's own tempo/expression markings (as
given in Watkins Shaw's 1981 critical edition):

The Pifa ("Pastoral Symphony") -- Larghetto e mezzo piano

"He shall feed his flock/Come unto him" -- Larghetto e piano

"How beautiful are the feet" -- Larghetto

This suggests that Handel thought the usual tempo for the siciliano was
Larghetto -- one step up from Largo. For some sense of comparison,
Messiah's opening tenor arioso, "Comfort ye my people" is also marked
Larghetto e piano, while the slow section of the alto aria "But who may
abide" (which, being in 3/8 time, has a siciliano-like flow) is also
marked Larghetto -- as is, actually, the famed "Largo" from the opera
"Xerxes", "Ombra mai fu".

The siciliano could express serenity for Handel, as in "He shall feed his
flock" or "Ombra mai fu", but also deep pathos, and he perhaps even
associated it with death: in some of his greatest oratorios, Handel
writes sicilianos as farewell arias -- for the Christian martyr Theodora,
for the innocent young Iphis in "Jephtha", and for the Queen Mother when
she says farewell to her doomed son in "Belshazzar" ("Regard, O son, my
flowing tears").

Coming closer to the territory of the St Matthew's "Kommt, ihr Töchter",
near the beginning of "Judas Maccabeus" Handel writes a moving choral
lament in siciliano form to the text "For Sion lamentation make, with
words that weep and tears that speak".

I do not have the scores for the above-mentioned works at hand (I will
check in the library this week), but I will bet they are all marked
Larghetto -- certainly they are all so performed on all the recordings I
have heard -- never "like jigs".

SO -- perhaps some readers who are more informed than I -- especially
those more versed in Bach's use of the siciliano -- could comment and
usefully apply this information to the interpretation of the opening
chorus of the St Matthew Passion.

Wes

Francis

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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"samir ghiocel golescu" <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in message

news:Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu...
> Absolutely. Pardon me, but you may have blamed on Mozart what actually

> pertained to different Mozartian "Herreweghes" and "Harnoncourts".

Mass HIPnosis ;-)

> (who also was partially opaque to Mozart's substance until he heard "The"
> interpretations)

Mengelberg???

Sybrand Bakker

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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Roland van Gaalen <r...@xs4.xs4all.nl> schreef in berichtnieuws
8f4iv4$mno$1...@news1.xs4all.nl...

I am
a) a believer
b) an amateur theologian
c) graduated musicologist.

The central notion here is:
Jesus died voluntarily ('Aus Liebe') to reconcile mankind with God, and to
take our sins away. That's why christians call it _Good_ Friday.
According to christian theology of that time Jesus dead was inevitable.
Judas was in that vision (which btw many contemporary theologians don't
agree anymore) only an instrument.
The goal of Jesus life was to die for our sins. The passion story is about
fulfillment, Jesus is fulfilling the goal of his life.
The spectators mourn about someone who is going _voluntarily_ to be
crucified for _their_ sins (Which is expressed by the chorale 'Ich bin's,
ich sollte buessen, where Bach implicitly also states it is not necessarily
Judas who killed Jesus, it are _our_ sins, as in the religious language of
that time Ich usually was meant to be superpersonal, the Ich being part of a
communion).
So actually these two notions are intermixed.
You also can't play this movement too slow, as you would spoil the many
exclamations in the text.

I'm not sure Otto Klemperer got it right, but then of course I am -I admit-
a HIP advocate, aka a HIPocrite to someone.

I will respond separately to the siciliano tempo issue tomorrow

Regards,

Sybrand Bakker,

Amsterdam

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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It is so very nice to have opinions from more learned and expert
listeners in this group--thank you, Matthew and Sybrand especially.
I am not a believer either--but I like to believe that Bach was one
who knew his theology inside out (as he most certainly was). I
think Matthew is right in saying that Marian and Good Friday vespers
aren't exactly comparable occassions, but many of Picander's lyrics
have this feeling of emotional and physical intimacy (by his day's
standards) that is truly striking. Kind of like Buxtehude's "Membra
Domine (?) nostri," in which the idea of gazing upon the Lord's
body part by part isn't exactly devoid of eroticism either.

Sybrand Bakker <pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:957736333.20216....@news.demon.nl...
>
> (snip)

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 7, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/7/00

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I remember reading somewhere (please help here, experts) that in eighteenth
century, allegroes, andantes, adagios, larghettos were primarily about
expressions
rather than absolute tempi. So an Adagio (say, Mozart K 488 ii) could
actually be
played more slowly than a Larghetto (K 595 ii) because the former suggested
sadness
and the latter serenity. I wonder if this, if true, would make people want
to mark the
SMP opening chorus an adagio rather than a larghetto, but who has seen
examples where
sicilianos are played adagio? :)

<wes...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:wester-0705...@dial-51-5.ots.utexas.edu...

Sybrand Bakker

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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Slightly different
Originally there was a sort of absolute tempo system where deviations were
notated by 'proportions'. 12/8 orginally meaned: 'You will have to play 12
crotchets in the time of eight unmodified crotchets' Any label like
'Allegro', 'Largo' meaned an expressive modification of that original
proportional tempo.
So indeed there was no absolute tempo / metronome marking for Allegro, Largo
etc.

Regards,

Sybrand Bakker

Hou Fang-Lin <fh...@midway.uchicago.edu> schreef in berichtnieuws
0OqR4.46$v3.562@uchinews...

Piotr Opiela

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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> Kind of like Buxtehude's "Membra
> Domine (?) nostri,"

Membra Jesu Nostri

Hou Fang-Lin

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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Thanks, Sybrand, for the technical support that I needed.
This is an example where the right kind of "authenticity"
can be useful to our interpretation of music written in an
earlier period. I have read this book called "Dancing on
the Grave" by Nigel Barley--it pretty much says that
funerals were (and are) not necessarily a solemn matter
around the world. I still have childhood memories of seeing
professional strip dancers at funeral parties or even
funeral processions. This was in Taiwan, of course,
which has been "modernized" since. I am sure that this
was not done to mock the dead but rather (strange as
this seems) to comfort the bereft. A matter of different
expressive emphases, you see...

Sybrand Bakker <pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote in message

news:957761565.28968....@news.demon.nl...

Simon Roberts

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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Hou Fang-Lin (fh...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
: Thanks, Sybrand, for the technical support that I needed.

: This is an example where the right kind of "authenticity"
: can be useful to our interpretation of music written in an
: earlier period.

[snip]

It's certainly interesting, but is it "useful" in any practical sense? It
seems to me that, like so much historical "evidence," one can make of it
what one will. Based on what's been said so far about the nature of
sicilianos and (below) about the meanings of "allegro" etc., is it any
easier to show that Herreweghe (say) gets the opening chorus of the SMP
right and Klemperer (say) gets it wrong (or vice versa)?

Simon

: Sybrand Bakker <pos...@sybrandb.demon.nl> wrote in message

: > Slightly different

: >

Francis

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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"Roland van Gaalen" <r...@xs4.xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:8f4h5j$hkr$1...@news1.xs4all.nl...

>> In effect, you are saying that Herreweghe and Harnoncourt are incompetent
> (but please correct me if I am wrong).

No doubt Samir will respond himself, but here's my take.

In the Visual Arts, it is common practice to separate the "History of Art"
from its creative aspects - Drawing, Painting, Sculpture etc.. An Art
Historian can indicate influences on a painting, its date, its authenticity,
its value, but these skills are largely orthogonal to the creative aspect.
One does not expect, say, Van Gogh to be an outstanding Art Historian. In
music, the problem seems to arise when the creative aspects of performing
and conducting are combined with historical analysis in a particular
individual. The result is neither the best scholarship, nor the best musical
performance.

-Charles

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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> I am neither a believer

> Roland van Gaalen

That's too bad. ALL Romanians are now believers, obsessed with the
following theological question: is there life *before* death?

regards,
SG (-: )-:

samir ghiocel golescu

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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> Do you believe this to be a fact, or is it just a matter of opinion?

> How can you be sure that what sounds "unauthentic" or superficial to you
> doesn't sound heartfelt to others?
>
> Roland van Gaalen

I ain't no sure. (-:
I'm not sure that people don't find Jim Carrey funny, even if I don't.

I'm not sure that people don't find Walgreen or Oscodrug perfumes good,
even if I definitely don't.

I'm not sure that people don't find Jean Paul-Sartre profound, even if i
don't.

Still, last night Bach appeared in my dream and told me: "you know, the
first time Harnoncourt performed my Passions, I twisted myself in pain, in
my grave, but then, in the last decade or two, I was almost hired as a
human electric fan, in Paradise".

I doubt, though, that my little conversation with Johann could pass as
evidence, in a court of law.

regards,
SG

Simon Roberts

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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Samir:

: Still, last night Bach appeared in my dream and told me: "you know, the

: first time Harnoncourt performed my Passions, I twisted myself in pain,
: in my grave, but then, in the last decade or two, I was almost hired as
: a human electric fan, in Paradise".

: I doubt, though, that my little conversation with Johann could pass as
: evidence, in a court of law.

Oh, it's evidence ....

Simon

Roland van Gaalen

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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Samir, could you please quote properly, for example using elipses? I would
not have objected to

[...] I am neither a believer [...] nor [...]

but the quotation below is ridiculous, and your off-topic response even
more so.

Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam

Samir Ghiocel Golescu wrote

: > I am neither a believer

Francis

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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> but many of Picander's lyrics
> have this feeling of emotional and physical intimacy (by his day's
> standards) that is truly striking. Kind of like Buxtehude's "Membra
> Domine (?) nostri," in which the idea of gazing upon the Lord's
> body part by part isn't exactly devoid of eroticism either.

Does Herreweghe capture such erotic aspects for you?

-Charles

Francis

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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"Hou Fang-Lin" <fh...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message

news:kgyR4.60$v3.1088@uchinews...

> Thanks, Sybrand, for the technical support that I needed.
> This is an example where the right kind of "authenticity"
> can be useful to our interpretation of music written in an

> earlier period. I have read this book called "Dancing on
> the Grave" by Nigel Barley--it pretty much says that
> funerals were (and are) not necessarily a solemn matter
> around the world. I still have childhood memories of seeing
> professional strip dancers at funeral parties or even
> funeral processions.

It's a pity this book was not included along with the multimedia CD. So many
of us are unfamiliar with the latest scholastic findings on period
performance.

-Charles

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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On 8 May 2000, Roland van Gaalen wrote:

> Samir, could you please quote properly, for example using elipses? I would
> not have objected to
>
> [...] I am neither a believer [...] nor [...]
>
> but the quotation below is ridiculous,

Mea culpa--however, it wasn't an intentional attempt to ridicule or
falsify your English grammar which, AFAI am entitled to judge, is very
good.

> and your off-topic response even more so.

Gosh, "off-topic"? Of course, I *wanted* to be off-topic. I was on-topic
in twenty very clearly argued postings, and I was answered with the
silliest speculations I've ever read (N.B. not by you). I was tired and,
as well-known, my jokes are sometimes less than successful, which
fortunately doesn't stop me from persisting.

Anyway, you're on the list of "no jokes with these folks" now--which
doesn't mean I'd be upset or that we cannot discuss seriously, sometimes.(-:

regards,
SG

pla...@my-deja.com

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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SG wrote :

> I doubt, though, that my little conversation with Johann could pass as
> evidence, in a court of law.
>

It could certainly, for a DUI case.

Laurent Planchon

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Francis

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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"samir ghiocel golescu" <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote in message

news:Pine.GSO.4.10.100050...@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu...

Well, I for one, thought it was very amusing. But let's get back on topic-
what about this dream of yours?

-Charles

Francis

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May 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/8/00

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