Bach Cantatas - what's good in 2017?

[Andy Evans]

Autumn in here and the mood turns to the Bach Cantatas. I'm still listening to my Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set. While I like it a lot, but I'd be interested in some stand-out performances of individual works or the odd box set of a few combined.

What's really good these days?

[Lawrence Kart]

On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 11:18:28 AM UTC-5, Andy Evans wrote:
> Autumn in here and the mood turns to the Bach Cantatas. I'm still listening to my Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set. While I like it a lot, but I'd be interested in some stand-out performances of individual works or the odd box set of a few combined.
>
> What's really good these days?

Try Fritz Werner, and you’ll never put up with Harnoncourt again:

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantatas-REMASTERED-Werner-2013-05-06/dp/B014I5H40G/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507399274&sr=8-1&keywords=bach+cantatas+fritz+werner

https://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-Nos-26-61-130/dp/B00008LKDS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1507399274&sr=8-3&keywords=bach+cantatas+fritz+werner

Composer-critic Robin Holloway on Harnoncourt’s cantatas:

“There is the sense that that the Bach cantatas are … being cut down to size. An affectattion of ‘no nonsense’ where architectural grandeur or spiritual expressivity is concerned ensures that one is denied breadth and … depth. These negative results are achieved by fast speeds, sharp attacks, and a dry sound-quality, thus eschewing warmth of tone and subtlety of phrasing (indeed any phrasing whatsoever). The benefits and occasional delights of clarity are diminished by a fundamental flaw, a rhythmic instability that vitiates every speed from largo to presto. Whatever the character of the music, Harnoncourt cannot sustain its tempo; he is at one mechanical yet unreliable; there is no real strength, nor the strength to be supple. Dislike of the singing — the chorus fierce but without sustaining power, the soloists dull (the men) or hapless (the boys) — would not matter if the priorities were in good order."

Larry Kart

P.S. I dumped my Harnoncourt set years ago, after realizing that it was like trying to drink sauerkraut juice. OTOT, Holloways strictures on Harnoncourt do not IMO apply to all NH recordings.

[Andy Evans]

> Try Fritz Werner, and you’ll never put up with Harnoncourt again:

> Larry Kart

60s/70s recordings, but that's fine - I still enjoy some of Karl Richter's cantatas. I'm listening to some of it on YT as i write. Musical performances - not quite sure about some of the soloists yet.... more listening to do. Thanks for the tip.

[Andy Evans]

Just an update to say I've been listening to Koopman's recordings and I like them as much as anything else I've heard. I'm hooked, and will be buying some of these.

What's as good as or better than Koopman?

[cooper...@gmail.com]

I also like Werner, and second the comment about Harnoncourt. I started collecting Harnoncourt/Leonhardt on LP and after the first few volumes decided that the best thing about them was the packaging. They're long gone from our collection. For more beautiful and less in-your-face HIP, there's Herreweghe (try https://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-HERREWEGHE-COLLEGIUM-VOCALE-GHENT/dp/B00005UNX7/ -- used copies cheap). I prefer modern instruments or a blend of old and new myself; my wife and I enjoy the Rilling box and have listened through the full cycle several times over the years. I like Winschermann's Bach in general and his cantatas have many virtues, esp. Ameling. The 5-CD set on Philips has been reissued by Arkiv CD. I also like Rotzsch selectively, esp. when Auger is involved. Do you know the famous Gönnenwein coupling of BWV 80 & 140 with Baker, Ameling et al.? (e.g., https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantatas-BWV-80-140-147-Jesu-meine-Freude/dp/B000B668WM/ -- also cheap, and the Geraint Jones couplings are worthwhile) There are contributors here who are far more expert in this repertoire than I am, but I do love the music.

AC

[Andy Evans]

> I also like Werner, and second the comment about Harnoncourt. I started collecting Harnoncourt/Leonhardt on LP and after the first few volumes decided that the best thing about them was the packaging. They're long gone from our collection. For more beautiful and less in-your-face HIP, there's Herreweghe (try https://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-HERREWEGHE-COLLEGIUM-VOCALE-GHENT/dp/B00005UNX7/ -- used copies cheap). I prefer modern instruments or a blend of old and new myself; my wife and I enjoy the Rilling box and have listened through the full cycle several times over the years. I like Winschermann's Bach in general and his cantatas have many virtues, esp. Ameling. The 5-CD set on Philips has been reissued by Arkiv CD. I also like Rotzsch selectively, esp. when Auger is involved. Do you know the famous Gönnenwein coupling of BWV 80 & 140 with Baker, Ameling et al.? (e.g., https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantatas-BWV-80-140-147-Jesu-meine-Freude/dp/B000B668WM/ -- also cheap, and the Geraint Jones couplings are worthwhile) There are contributors here who are far more expert in this repertoire than I am, but I do love the music.
>
> AC

Thanks - I find Herreweghe generally quite dull. Haven't listened much to Rilling but I enjoy Richter. Don't know Rotsch. I have the Gonnenwein - must have another listen. I remember meeting Geraint Jones when I was young - he was a buddy of my uncle. Don't know Winschermann.

[howie...@btinternet.com]

I think the OP should hear the recordings from La petite bande directed, I think they've finished a sort of cycle now. Also I think that Eric Milnes / Montreal Baroque is worth hearing to see whether you like it.

Anyone formed an opinion of Iestyn Davies's recording?

I've heard Gardiner perform cantatas many times in concert and though I haven't heard any of his recordings I bet they're satisfying. How anyone gets the time to keep abreast of what's going on with Bach performance beats me!

[Andy Evans]

Lutzis indeed very good. He has several excerpts on YT and also some workshops in German, where he plays an electronic kb. The complete cantatas on YT so far are these:
34 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rETHbd-Vb3k
35 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TdPe4iEYPQ
61 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mREUBjHoE0w
66 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFlTRAhCav8
83 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LwKSG4FbLw
110 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz7XHnJ87cY&t=284s
158 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeDD5Lpa_DM
168 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hjYcVpCZjc
175 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRShIu9Mc10

I've taken a brief look at La Petite Bande on YT, but so far I wouldn't put them above Harnoncourt, who I stubbornly continue to like.

This is an interesting thread - the landscape has changed in 2017 and continues to change. Keep the posts coming!

[howie...@btinternet.com]

Oh I forgot another one to check which I enjoyed, Vox Luminis, a CD called Actus Tragicus. I'm not sure I would put Kuijken above Harnoncourt either, but they are good performances nonetheless. I can't get into Koopman at all, but I do like what Suzuki did, esp with Mera!

[Andy Evans]

On Sunday, 8 October 2017 12:10:45 UTC+1, howie...@btinternet.com wrote:
> Oh I forgot another one to check which I enjoyed, Vox Luminis, a CD called Actus Tragicus. I'm not sure I would put Kuijken above Harnoncourt either, but they are good performances nonetheless. I can't get into Koopman at all, but I do like what Suzuki did, esp with Mera!

I've been listening a lot more - just cantatas the last day or two!
- Koopman: just bought some boxes cheap on eBay and looking forward to them. I like him.
- Gardiner: Good, and I really ought to like him more, he has vitality and it's all musical. I just listened to a few of his cantatas on the trot and I started to find them a bit jolly and samey. It was a relief to turn to Koopman. But I do like his versions and the best are very fine.
- Lutz: obviously good, but haven't listened enough
- Harnoncourt: I always liked these and I still do, and I still think the best of them wear very well
- Suzuki: I'm liking what I hear so far

- Rifkin: I like some of his cantatas, clear textures. Not my preference in the bigger works
- Rilling: I just bought 19+20 cheap on eBay. He's OK in the energetic movements.
- Richter: still good in the right cantatas for an occasional listen

- La Petite Bande: not really interested, much prefer Harnoncourt
- Montreal Baroque: really not interested
- American Bach Society: ?? can't find any performances
- Werner: not really my thing
- Rotzsch: haven't heard much of him

[Terry]

On Sunday, October 8, 2017 at 3:18:28 AM UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
> Autumn in here and the mood turns to the Bach Cantatas. I'm still listening to my Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set. While I like it a lot, but I'd be interested in some stand-out performances of individual works or the odd box set of a few combined.
>
> What's really good these days?

John Eliot Gardiner. A couple of years ago I bought his big box (about 58 CDs) of all the sacred cantatas.

I set myself the task of listening to every CD, with Alfred Dürr's book in hand: "The Cantatas of J. S. Bach: With Their Librettos in German-English Parallel Text".

I "finished" about a month ago. This little project has been one of the better things I've done. There are just so many gems one comes across as one traverses these works, that one is never truly "finished" with them. But JEG is a superb guide to this music. Dance music dances, and makes it impossible to tolerate those "old school" conductors like Rilling.

Koopman is good too, as is the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set you have. And I've been extremely impressed with everything I've heard from Suzuki, on BIS.

[number_six]

Only one I have by Thomas /American Bach Soloists is a very good account of three oft-recorded cantatas -- 140, 78, 80.

Rifkin's Coffee and Peasant are fun, Rilling's BWV 11 (Ascension) among my favorites.

[number_six]

Old-school's not all bad! Prohaska and Bach Guild, for me, are irreplaceable in BWV 78.

[number_six]

Memory failure -- I was recalling Hogwood's Coffee and Peasant CD -- not Rifkin.

Have a good BWV 51 by Rifkin.

[Andy Evans]

> Memory failure -- I was recalling Hogwood's Coffee and Peasant CD -- not Rifkin.
>
> Have a good BWV 51 by Rifkin.

I have the Hogwood. Also the Rifkin, but I tend to listen to Richter in 51 - it's the kind of cantata he's good at, and I like something more massive in this. I'm not nuts about his soloist Maria Stader, but I like the general energy.

I've started my Suzuki collection with volume 8 which fills in some gaps in my Harnoncourt nearly-complete set. I'm pretty well stocked now - multiple versions of a lot of the cantatas. But you can never get enough of this music and since there's over 200 of them it's not likely that most of us will have heard all the available versions, so it's always possible to make some nice new discoveries.

[Andy Evans]

On Sunday, 8 October 2017 22:48:16 UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> > Memory failure -- I was recalling Hogwood's Coffee and Peasant CD -- not Rifkin.
> > > > Have a good BWV 51 by Rifkin.

Curious about BWV51, I started comparing versions and got some unexpected results

I find Richter reassuringly robust and solid compared to one-to-a-part Rifkin et al. This is the kind of sound I grew up with. It doesn't plod - it has good speed, and without being "too fast" so you lose some of the weight and breadth in the music. For me Gardiner in the opening of 51 is just that bit too brisk so it just starts to sound lightweight. If you want to hear "plodding" in BWV 51, listen to Karl Ristenpart - the perfect cure for insomnia.

So let's look at speeds in BWV51 in bpm

Mortenson 215
Goebel 212
Lutz 210
Gardiner 204
Haim w. Dessay 204
Jochum 193
Koopman 182
Leonhardt 180
Voorberg w. Popp 179
Richter 175
Leusink 175
Ristenpart 164
Rifkin 162

But all is not as it seems - it's not even just tempi. Goebel is much more massive and solid the Gardiner even though he's faster. He really rips into the music - it's terrific. Why didn't he record more cantatas? And Rifkin is the slowest.

I'd say 180bpm is about right for the start of BWV 51, but Goebel blows that out of the water. And while Ristenpart is unbearably plodding, Rifkin sounds quite light and breezy.

[Lawrence Kart]

The best guide to the cantatas IMO (two volumes worth) is:

ps://www.amazon.com/Cantatas-Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Secular/dp/019315238X/ref=sr_1_29?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1507557876&sr=1-29&keywords=bach+cantatas

Larry Kart

[Lawrence Kart]

Can't do BPM, but here are some overall timings of BW 51 versions:

Werner 18:06
Goebel 14:09 (!)
Rilling 20:45
Mortensen 17:56 (live recording on YouTube)
Leonhardt 17:56
Ristenpart 21:18
Gardiner 15:40
Jochum 16:44
Richter 17:46
Richter 17:45 (1977)

One thing that becomes quite clear(at least to me) is that speed per se, or lack of same, doesn't tell the whole story. No less or even more important is (if these terms aren't too vague) insistence/strength of accenting versus emphasis on flow/linearity. Thus, e.g. Jochum's relatively flowing performance, which is the third fastest of these above at 16:44, feels/sounds slower than either of Richter's insistently accented but a minute slower
by the clock performances. Likewise, Gardiner strongly accented performance sounds to me rather breathless, more so that Geobel's, which is a mad dash by the clock but less so subjectively, at least IMO. I'll add that Mortensen's performance, just heard by me for the first time, is quite something.

Larry Kart

[Andy Evans]

> Can't do BPM, but here are some overall timings of BW 51 versions:
>
> Werner 18:06
> Goebel 14:09 (!)
> Rilling 20:45
> Mortensen 17:56 (live recording on YouTube)
> Leonhardt 17:56
> Ristenpart 21:18
> Gardiner 15:40
> Jochum 16:44
> Richter 17:46
> Richter 17:45 (1977)
>
> One thing that becomes quite clear(at least to me) is that speed per se, or lack of same, doesn't tell the whole story. No less or even more important is (if these terms aren't too vague) insistence/strength of accenting versus emphasis on flow/linearity. Thus, e.g. Jochum's relatively flowing performance, which is the third fastest of these above at 16:44, feels/sounds slower than either of Richter's insistently accented but a minute slower
> by the clock performances. Likewise, Gardiner strongly accented performance sounds to me rather breathless, more so that Geobel's, which is a mad dash by the clock but less so subjectively, at least IMO. I'll add that Mortensen's performance, just heard by me for the first time, is quite something.
>
> Larry Kart

Hi Larry - yes, this is exactly what I mean. Your findings are the same as mine - Gardiner, Goebels etc. Goebels is the most strongly accented of all, and it sounds solid even at his crazy tempo, while Gardiner sounds - as you say - breathless.

BPM is easy - just go to http://www.all8.com/tools/bpm.htm and tap out the tempo on your computer keyboard as you listen. I use it all the time, but then I listen to all my music on my desktop, it's all loaded into my Mac.

[Al Eisner]

On Sat, 7 Oct 2017, cooper...@gmail.com wrote:

> Do you know the famous Gönnenwein coupling of BWV 80 & 140 with Baker, Ameling et al.? (e.g., https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Cantatas-BWV-80-140-147-Jesu-meine-Freude/dp/B000B668WM/ -- also cheap, and the Geraint Jones couplings are worthwhile)

Strongly seconded. Years ago, a favorite cantata LP was Gönnenwein's
coupling of 78 and 106. Using this invaluable page from the Bach Cantata
website, http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Performers/Gonnenwein.htm, I see
that he recorded 9 LPs worth of Bach cantatas, and that in addition to
the 80/140 coupling noted above, there is a 4-CD set (not obviously
available) with that 140 along with 78 and 106 plus performances by other
conductors; and a 2-CD set with 80/140 (again) plus 106 and performances
by other conductors. But 78 (which includes Edith Mathis and Sybil
Michelow in an excellent performance of the great duet) would be
especially worth finding. Amazon does sell the LP, albeit not cheaply.
--
Al Eisner

[Lawrence Kart]

Andy -- I don't quite agree that Goebel is the most strongly accented of all, or perhaps it's that I don't agree about the effects of his accenting.Yes, his accenting is abundant, but at that speed, and also given the way the accents are struck or hit, the effect is rather bubbly, each accent bouncing on to or flowing into the next. With Gardiner, by contrast, the accents are more or less sticky; they pretty much stop or interrupt any sense of flow.

Larry Kart

[Andy Evans]

> Andy -- I don't quite agree that Goebel is the most strongly accented of all, or perhaps it's that I don't agree about the effects of his accenting.Yes, his accenting is abundant, but at that speed, and also given the way the accents are struck or hit, the effect is rather bubbly, each accent bouncing on to or flowing into the next. With Gardiner, by contrast, the accents are more or less sticky; they pretty much stop or interrupt any sense of flow.
>
> Larry Kart

I'm sure you're right - you've listened more than I have to these. What I just realised is that Goebel is using W.F Bach's arrangement of BWV 51, so part of the difference is in the orchestration.

[Andy Evans]

I spent a few days listening to all the versions I have - a mixture of the original Harnoncourt/Leonhardt mostly complete set and later boxes and single discs I purchased of Koopman, Herreweghe, Gardiner, Richter, Rilling, Rifkin, Leusink et al. Unfortunately no Suzuki yet or Lutz.

Here's my current playlist of the most attractive cantatas to my ears and the best versions out of what I have. Can anyone suggest better versions of these cantatas?

BWV 1 – Harnoncourt
BWV 4 – Harnoncourt
BWV 8 – Rifkin
BWV 11 – Gardiner
BWV 19 – Rilling
BWV 20 – Harnoncourt
BWV 21 – Harnoncourt
BWV 22 – Leusink
BWV 29 – Harnoncourt
BWV 30 – Richter
BWV 32 – Leonhardt
BWV 34 – Richter
BWV 39 – Harnoncourt
BWV 40 – Harnoncourt
BWV 49 – Harnoncourt
BWV 51 – Leonhardt
BWV 54 – Harnoncourt
BWV 57 – Harnoncourt
BWV 61 – Gardiner
BWV 66 – Harnoncourt
BWV 78 – Harnoncourt
BWV 80 – Harnoncourt
BWV 82 – Harnoncourt
BWV 90 – Koopman
BWV 96 – Harnoncourt
BWV 100 – Harnoncourt
BWV 104 – Harnoncourt
BWV 106 – Gardiner
BWV 112 – Harnoncourt
BWV 115 – Koopman
BWV 116 – Harnoncourt
BWV 120 – Harnoncourt
BWV 131 – Harnoncourt
BWV 137 – Harnoncourt
BWV 138 – Herreweghe
BWV 140 – Gardiner
BWV 146 – Koopman
BWV 147 – Koopman
BWV 161 – Harnoncourt
BWV 169 – Harnoncourt
BWV 170 – Herreweghe
BWV 180 – Leonhardt
BWV 182 – Koopman
BWV 188 – Leusink
BWV 191 – Koopman
BWV 193 – Koopman
BWV 198 – Gardiner
BWV 199 – Koopman

[howie...@btinternet.com]

Yes I think you can do better than Harnoncourt for 54: Kurt Thomas, Herreweghe, Alfred Deller, Suzuki, I even prefer Leusink.

And I think you can do better in 82 -- Hunt-Lieberson and Bruggen/Egmond

I agree with you about 21

[howie...@btinternet.com]

I don't know about better than Gardiner in 11 because I haven't heard it, I like Leonhardt in that one.

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, October 7, 2017 at 6:18:28 AM UTC-10, Andy Evans wrote:
> Autumn in here and the mood turns to the Bach Cantatas. I'm still listening to my Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set. While I like it a lot, but I'd be interested in some stand-out performances of individual works or the odd box set of a few combined.
>
> What's really good these days?

(Recent Youtube upload):

Bach - Kantaten / Cantatas / Cantates I (recording of the Century : Karl Richter)