"New" Toscanini-Beethoven RCA issue?
emf
conducted by Toscanini. As the ID number is a new one I suppose it is
a new issue with respect to the recent one of the Immortal series. I
was not able to find more news. Anyone?
Thanks Ezio
John Wilson
I can not find anything about it on the BMG site or anywhere else but
since it's the RCA set I assume it's the usual late 40s early 50s
cycle. The only questions are which Eroica will they use and what
re-equalization have they done this time.
John
Toscanini Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~jw3/index.html
emf
question: is this the beginning of the real and correct re-issue of
the old Toscanini edition?
Ezio Ferdeghini
John Wilson <j...@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<6vjfpvsmgnmmu6f22...@4ax.com>...
> On 23 Oct 2003 01:01:34 -0700, chez_to...@yahoo.com (emf) wrote:
>
> >On MDT I've found the announce of a new issue of the 9 symph by LvB
>
deac...@yahoo.com
>This is just the kind of news I would expect. Together with the
>question: is this the beginning of the real and correct re-issue of
>the old Toscanini edition?
>Ezio Ferdeghini
Ezio, not wanting to either dampen your enthusiasm and at the risk of
seeming like an old man, which I am, of course, I still have to
respond negatively to this "news".
Ever since the 1950s RCA Victor (now BMG) has been remastering and
reremastering and rereremastering the fucking tapes of Toscanini's NBC
Symphony and issuing and reissuing and rereissuing and rerereissuing
them.
Each time they have told the consumer: "We got it right this time!"
And each time the critics and the public have said, "No, you didn't!
Do it again."
They even said that after RCA had spent a fortune bringing out the
"complete Toscanini" in a big black wooden coffin!
Surely we know just about everything we need to know about how
Toscanini conducted every piece of music in this series.
In my opinion, the recordings sucked in the first instance, and the
second, and the third, and they will STILL suck - THE BIG ONE!
This is not a comment on Toscanini - bless his little soul - but on
the damned studio he chose to record in and RCA Victor and their dumb
engineers.
I, for one, will be happy to go to my grave without hearing any of
these remasterings of the great Maestro. And I will certainly be happy
not to have added anything to BMG's war-chest.
Enough, already!
TD
Cesar Diaz
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> Ever since the 1950s RCA Victor (now BMG) has been remastering and
> reremastering and rereremastering the fucking tapes of Toscanini's >NBC
Symphony and issuing and reissuing and rereissuing and
> rerereissuing them.
And who's fault is that? We keep on buying the re-cycled stuff.
> Each time they have told the consumer: "We got it right this time!"
... and we buy them again! We're afraid we might missing some new revelation
finally extracted from the old shellac, vinyl or tape.
> And each time the critics and the public have said, "No, you didn't!
> Do it again."
Critics? What do they know? Remember Clint's remark about critics?
> They even said that after RCA had spent a fortune bringing out the
> "complete Toscanini" in a big black wooden coffin!
For an exclusive one appearance only!
> Surely we know just about everything we need to know about how
> Toscanini conducted every piece of music in this series.
> Enough, already!
Wow! You're really upset about this, aren't you? Life is too short. Don't
blow a gasket on this shit.
César.
PS. I loved your observations on the Mercury Living Presence CD re-issues
thread.
deac...@yahoo.com
Not "upset", Cesar. Just tired of hearing about these endless reissues
of Toscanini. I have a book entitled Toscanini and The Art of
Conducting, but Robert Charles Marsh, former music critic of the
Chicago Sun Times, and the pub date on it is 1956. The version I have
is a reprint, in paperback, from 1962. It is all there, each an every
piece endlessly described.
What, I ask, has changed?
Certainly not the desire on the part of RCA Victor - alias BMG - to
extract more and more money from our wallets for this stuff.
TD
TransfrGuy
>Each time they have told the consumer: "We got it right this time!"
>
>And each time the critics and the public have said, "No, you didn't!
>Do it again."
>
>They even said that after RCA had spent a fortune bringing out the
>"complete Toscanini" in a big black wooden coffin!
Although the "big black coffin" was the best effort yet to present Toscanini's
recorded legacy in its best sonic light, it still fell short in many ways.
Enormous amounts of time and money were expended on some releases (Jack
Pfeiffer was quoted as saying that it cost more to remaster the 1951 Verdi
Requiem than it originally did to record it), while other transfer engineers
had to make do with noisy shellac pressings because that particular issue's
sub-producer's budget was running short, and they couldn't order up tapes,
parts or lacquers from Indianapolis. (Cases in point: the 1947 Schubert 9th
and the 1949 "Parsifal" excerpts.)
Then there were the differences in remastering philosophies between the
subproducers that led to fake stereo being added to some releases (like the one
with the Traubel/Melchior Act I scene from "Die Walkure"), while others were in
mono. The good work of restorers like Ward Marston (the NYP recordings) had
their bass gutted by RCA's staff engineers. For other releases (the
Philadelphia Orchestra recordings), inferior old transfers were used where new
ones should have been comissioned.
The next series that was done a couple years ago (with the "disembodied head"
covers) concentrated only on tape-era recordings, presumably due their
inherently less problematic sound; but they still added phony stereo and
reverb, and introduced some editing errors that weren't in the Toscanini
Collection versions.
As you can see, I don't believe that a really good job ever *has* been done
with all of Toscanini's recordings. Although some of them fared well in the
earlier series, much remains to be done correctly. That's why people like Enzo
and John and myself still are interested to see if the next time, they'll get
it right. (And I do what I can to that end myself with his 78 rpm legacy.)
Mark Obert-Thorn
Bob Lombard
>Enormous amounts of time and money were expended on some releases (Jack
>Pfeiffer was quoted as saying that it cost more to remaster the 1951 Verdi
>Requiem than it originally did to record it), while other transfer engineers
>had to make do with noisy shellac pressings because that particular issue's
>sub-producer's budget was running short, and they couldn't order up tapes,
>parts or lacquers from Indianapolis. (Cases in point: the 1947 Schubert 9th
>and the 1949 "Parsifal" excerpts.)
>
>Then there were the differences in remastering philosophies between the
>subproducers that led to fake stereo being added to some releases (like the one
>with the Traubel/Melchior Act I scene from "Die Walkure"), while others were in
>mono. The good work of restorers like Ward Marston (the NYP recordings) had
>their bass gutted by RCA's staff engineers. For other releases (the
>Philadelphia Orchestra recordings), inferior old transfers were used where new
>ones should have been comissioned.
>
>The next series that was done a couple years ago (with the "disembodied head"
>covers) concentrated only on tape-era recordings, presumably due their
>inherently less problematic sound; but they still added phony stereo and
>reverb, and introduced some editing errors that weren't in the Toscanini
>Collection versions.
>
>Mark Obert-Thorn
Mark, this is a horror story. If you'd waited a week it would have fit
right in with Halloween.
I'd ask if there were similar debacles re the '78s' legacies of
Beecham and Walter - but not at all sure I want to know.
bl
TransfrGuy
>I'd ask if there were similar debacles re the '78s' legacies of
>Beecham and Walter - but not at all sure I want to know.
I've only heard one of the new UK Sony Beecham issues so far (the Elgar disc),
and it seemed to have a touch of fake stereo in it. I don't know about the
rest. However, I think Sony did a fine job on their Walter series, and used
the best extant sources.
Mark O-T
deac...@yahoo.com
All I can say, Mark, is more power to you.
But I do hope you understand that many of us who have their shelves
still groaning from the original LP issues of all the Toscanini
material are unwilling, and unable, to pay, yet again, for all this
remastering.
I am sure that you and others can improve on what has been done. But
Jack Pfeiffer's comment about the Verdi Requiem should be taken to
heart. There is no percentage, to be commercial for a moment, in these
endless reinvestigations of the Toscanini legacy. Diminishing returns
set in a long, long time ago. For me, at least.
TD
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
Don't. PLEASE don't open that can of worms!
TD
Mark Stenroos
I was working at BMG Direct at the time the coffin was issued, and I
heard A LOT about the problems this series had getting done "right"
from my friends up at BMG Classics.
First off, RCA had to deal with the Toscanini Estate (TE), who were
absolutely furious that EMI was busy re-releasing Furtwangler on CD
while Toscanini languished in the vaults (a few CDs had been issued in
Japan and subsequently issued Stateside, but nothing comprehensive had
been undertaken). RCA committed to the ATE (A. Toscanini
Edition)...and then spent a few months explaining to the TE why they
couldn't release the stuff at full price (which was $17.99 a pop back
then). The TE fought BMG on a midline price because they believed AT's
recordings would be "devalued" if released on midline CD, *pace* the
fact that many of them had already appeared in the past on *budget*
LPs. Go figure.
The pricing hurdle surmounted, BMG proceeded to shoot itself in the
foot with the comedy of errors revealed above by MOT. But it didn't
stop there. In an effort to guss it up for the TE, BMG decided to
place a raised, gold-embossed Toscanini signature on the product...but
rather than on the product itself, they placed it on the disposable
cardboard CD holder that was used on early CDs to allow them to be
displayed in LP racks (remember those?). That decision made, they gave
the job out to the most-expensive printer they could find without
bidding the job around. I was told that little mistake cost BMG about
$1 per CD...they were literally throwing the money away (or, at least
the end consumer was). I would bet that most collectors would have
preferred that $1 per CD went into remastering charges, rather than
disposable cardboard wrapping.
Then, we offered to help BMG Classics sell the coffin through the BMG
Club. They were fine with that, but they wouldn't waive their 90-day
holdback for the club rights, so we had to wait 3 months after their
retail date to start our marketing. Further, they wouldn't allow us to
create our own club-specific marketing piece (we wanted to jazz up the
color scheme and make our promotion more in line with our typical sell
copy, graphics etc) and we had to submit our ad piece for their
approval. Of course, they ended up approving a drab, black-heavy piece
that, quite frankly, looked like shit. I think we sold maybe 4 or 5 of
them, tops. By that point, Classics had created such a mountain out of
a return-on-investment molehill that those of us who had led the fight
to promote the ATE through the club were ducking for political cover.
But, I hear things are better at BMG Classics these days. I hope so!
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
This is indeed a sad tale. Both the transfer side and the marketing
side.
I have never understood why everything "Toscanini" had to be black,
relentless, merciless, implacable black.
And when you say the TE, you know we are talking about Horowitz's wife
Wanda.
ARGH!!!!
No wonder VH had nervous breakdowns.
TD
Ian Pace
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jrhjpvg0evo574nin...@4ax.com...
almost always get these grim covers. Yet the spines aren't that distinctive
(DG, Teldec and Philips seem to have done best at making their spines easily
identifiable, also some contemporary CD companies such as Hat Art and
Kairos). The Archiv series on DG usually had good covers, but which perhaps
inadvertently looked more post-modern than they might have been intended.
As for their new 'blue label' series - hmmmm, reminds me of feeling
saturated in chlorine after a visit to the swimming baths.
There's an interesting article in about the history and ideology of LP
covers by Nicholas Cook, in a volume called 'Composition, Performance,
Reception', edited by Wyndham Thomas. Some of the same material is covered
in Cook's book 'Analysing Music Multimedia'.
Best,
Ian
Matthew燘. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
news:9b05210b.03102...@posting.google.com:
> I was working at BMG Direct at the time the coffin was issued, and I
> heard A LOT about the problems this series had getting done "right"
> from my friends up at BMG Classics.
>
> First off, RCA had to deal with the Toscanini Estate (TE), who were
> absolutely furious that EMI was busy re-releasing Furtwangler on CD while
> Toscanini languished in the vaults (a few CDs had been issued in Japan
> and subsequently issued Stateside, but nothing comprehensive had been
> undertaken). RCA committed to the ATE (A. Toscanini Edition)...and then
> spent a few months explaining to the TE why they couldn't release the
> stuff at full price (which was $17.99 a pop back then). The TE fought BMG
> on a midline price because they believed AT's recordings would be
> "devalued" if released on midline CD, *pace* the fact that many of them
> had already appeared in the past on *budget* LPs. Go figure.
Ah, the "I want top dollar and if I can't have it I don't want to sell at
all" mentality. My hat is off to whoever talked them down from this. But
it's a safe bet it isn't Gene Gaudette, considering those $20/disc prices for
Vox one-off burns....
> The pricing hurdle surmounted, BMG proceeded to shoot itself in the foot
> with the comedy of errors revealed above by MOT. But it didn't stop
> there. In an effort to guss it up for the TE, BMG decided to place a
> raised, gold-embossed Toscanini signature on the product...but rather
> than on the product itself, they placed it on the disposable cardboard CD
> holder that was used on early CDs to allow them to be displayed in LP
> racks (remember those?). That decision made, they gave the job out to the
> most-expensive printer they could find without bidding the job around. I
> was told that little mistake cost BMG about $1 per CD...they were
> literally throwing the money away (or, at least the end consumer was). I
> would bet that most collectors would have preferred that $1 per CD went
> into remastering charges, rather than disposable cardboard wrapping.
>
> Then, we offered to help BMG Classics sell the coffin through the BMG
> Club. They were fine with that, but they wouldn't waive their 90-day
> holdback for the club rights, so we had to wait 3 months after their
> retail date to start our marketing. Further, they wouldn't allow us to
> create our own club-specific marketing piece (we wanted to jazz up the
> color scheme and make our promotion more in line with our typical sell
> copy, graphics etc) and we had to submit our ad piece for their approval.
> Of course, they ended up approving a drab, black-heavy piece that, quite
> frankly, looked like shit. I think we sold maybe 4 or 5 of them, tops. By
> that point, Classics had created such a mountain out of a return-on-
> investment molehill that those of us who had led the fight to promote the
> ATE through the club were ducking for political cover.
They also did something else that I, as a customer, found utterly obnoxious.
Take a look at the following letter, which I sent to Guenter Hensler,
President of BMG Classics, on 22 October 1992 -- eleven years ago this week:
[begin letter]
Dear Mr. Hensler:
I have been a big fan of the RCA/BMG Toscanini Edition since even before it
was begun. For example, I bought the 10 CDs of JVC's early Toscanini series,
at premium prices. I bought each of the subsequent American RCA issues. And
when the present complete edition began to be issued in 1990, I bought every
release as it came out, often on the day it became available at my local
store.
In short, my allegiance to this reissue series is unquestioned. I've been a
Toscanini collector for decades; indeed, I grew up with the 78s of his 1939
Beethoven 5th, and I have had practically everything on LP at one time or
another, including several discs from the Japanese 100-LP set that was in its
time the only long-play release of some of the performances.
Why do I even mention this, beyond my wish to give thanks that the series was
carried to a successful conclusion? It is because I see now that the entire
set has now been made available at a special price, a price which includes
such extras as a handsome glass-doored cabinet and a booklet with a
limitation number. I've seen it at one of my favorite stores, and it's a
beauty.
But, frankly, I am very annoyed. I have already bought each and every one of
the 82 CDs that make up this series. I have paid retail for them and, in so
doing, have been one of the very people who made it a commercial success so
that you at BMG Classics would continue it to its completion. And now I find
that the cabinet is not available at any special consideration to purchasers
of the entire set -- but at a price of more than $100!
I find this pricing arbitrary, ridiculous and punitive. As you can see from
the attached, I have already paid out more than $800 (not including state and
local tax) for the Toscanini series. At my local Tower Records, the complete
set (with the cabinet and booklet) retails for $819.99, and the cabinet alone
for $131.00. As far as I am concerned, I have pretty much already paid for
the cabinet, and I feel you should make special dispensation to those of us
who were foresighted to buy all the CDs as they came out. Without us, you
wouldn't have your success in the first place!
I await your reply detailing a more equitable manner of making the cabinet
available to purchasers of the complete Toscanini Edition.
Sincerely,
Matthew B. Tepper
cc: John Pfeiffer
Martin Bookspan
[end letter]
I can't imagine you will be surprised to learn that I received no reply.
> But, I hear things are better at BMG Classics these days. I hope so!
Well, let's see if they're willing to sell some of that Ormandy flood in the
USA, since it's already been remastered for the Japanese releases.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
deac...@yahoo.com
<oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>But, frankly, I am very annoyed. I have already bought each and every one of
>the 82 CDs that make up this series. I have paid retail for them and, in so
>doing, have been one of the very people who made it a commercial success so
>that you at BMG Classics would continue it to its completion. And now I find
>that the cabinet is not available at any special consideration to purchasers
>of the entire set -- but at a price of more than $100!
I think I now understand why Dan Koren is so disturbed by the "great
gold and brown box" of the GPE.
He had bought a lot of the individual CDs as they came out.
Then he realized that he should have waited and got the boxes.
Sometimes it pays to wait.
TD
Joseph Vitale
news:Xns941EBD0F089...@207.217.77.206:
> [end letter]
>
> I can't imagine you will be surprised to learn that I received no
> reply.
I know how you feel Matthew, when I was in college; I once wrote a fan
letter to Von Karajan and never got a response back from the maestro -and
after who knows how many dollars I spent on his cd's! (lol). But
seriously, I never really expected a response.
JV
TransfrGuy
>As far as I am concerned, I have pretty much already paid for
>the cabinet, and I feel you should make special dispensation to those of us
>who were foresighted to buy all the CDs as they came out. Without us, you
>wouldn't have your success in the first place!
What BMG learned from this was to issue the big box first, then release the
individual volumes. Unfortunately, the next project for which they chose to do
this was the Rubinstein Edition, at least half of which had been out before,
much of it at midprice. They sold very few copies of the complete set, and
retailers like Tower ultimately had to break up the box and throw it out so
that they could sell the pieces. (Tower wound up giving away the hardcover
books that came with the complete set to anyone who bought even a single
Rubinstein Edition CD. That's how I got mine.)
Even then, BMG couldn't decide how to price it. At first, everything was full
price, even the material which had already been out at mid- or even
budget-price in good transfers (like the stereo Chopin material, the Beethoven
concertos with Krips, etc.) on Gold Seal, Basic 100, et al. Then, they made
the odd decision to make every Chopin disc full price and everything else
midprice. So, the 1930s EMI Chopin material in two-disc sets was at full
price, competing against EMI's own bargain box.
The bottom line is that, from what I've heard, the Rubinstein Edition debacle
bankrupted BMG Classics and led to its dissolution.
Mark Obert-Thorn
Marc Perman
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vuaipvsq7111k2jti...@4ax.com...
>
> I, for one, will be happy to go to my grave without hearing any
of
> these remasterings of the great Maestro. And I will certainly be
happy
> not to have added anything to BMG's war-chest.
But please don't die before you hear the 1939 Toscanini Beethoven
cycle on Naxos, in case you haven't, which I find across the board
superior, in performance and sound, to the later RCA studio
recordings (save perhaps the RCA 9th, which I imprinted on).
Marc Perman
Samir Golescu
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003, Marc Perman wrote:
> But please don't die before you hear the 1939 Toscanini Beethoven
> cycle on Naxos
What is the T.T. of the 1939 Beethoven cycle?
regards,
SG
Matthew燘. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:Pine.GSO.4.31.0310250030090.12902-100000
@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu:
For the symphonies, 23:09, 32:36, 46:06, 33:21, 31:20, 40:51, 33:05, 25:15,
and 1:01:43. Were there any other timings that you wished?
Mark Stenroos
You'd think I had learned my lesson with BMG and big sets after the
ATE problems, but, no. That's because I'm one of those idiots who
seems to get his nuts in a sling every time (well, not "every" time)
he tries to do the right thing for the collector. To wit:
While I was at MHS, BMG approached me about selling the Complete
Rubinstein Edition (CRE). I said, sure - we'd carry it as finished
goods, buy what we needed and do the best we could. Best of all, I
impressed upon BMG the problems I had had with their ATE, and they
agreed to waive MHS's 90-day holdback. We would be able to sell it on
their street date.
I decided to do our inital advertising as part of our Xmas promotion.
The CRE was given the PRIME location in our annual box set insert and
marketed at just under $1400 (with free s&h). Even though I knew it
wouldn't generate the revenue-per-page I had budgeted for that insert,
I thought that making nice with BMG was worth the expected loss in
revenue.
Well, much to my surprise, within two weeks of our promotion, I had
checks in hand from 7 members who ordered the set. Not bad - and way
above my expectations.
And now, my new BMG nightmare began.
For some reason, our orders for the 7 sets weren't being filled. After
a week of not receiving them, we made a few calls. "They're on the
way...sorry." That would be the response we got for the next two
weeks. But being in mail order, there are certain LAWS that apply when
you use the US Mails to both solicit and conduct business. That meant
we either had to ship the product within 30 days of receiving those
checks or offer a refund to those 7 members. So, we called them
directly, explained that the set was coming, and would they give us a
little more time, etc. At this point, we lost two orders.
A few more weeks go by. Nothing. Finally, in frustration, I called a
lower-level functionary at BMG. And this guy - out of pity or whatever
- gave me the REAL story: BMG had no sets to ship me. And why was
that? Well, according to this poor soul, BMG had hedged their bets in
their initial assembling of the sets and had only put together about
300 of them. Unfortunately for me (and any one else wishing to
purchase one), most of those sets - and I'm not making this up - had
already been distributed as PROMOS to record reviewers and other
important types in the biz!
But wait, there's more: since we were by this point deeply into the
Xmas selling season, BMG wouldn't have the time or manpower to
assemble more sets - they were busy doing pop product.
At the end of the day, the CRE finally arrived at MHS the following
JANUARY...all 7 copies of it. But by then, I was down to ONE order -
the other 6 had all demanded refunds (and who could blame them?).
Nothing like pissing off your customers, especially the ones willing
to spend enormous amounts on luxury product.
Lenny
of the remakes.
Besides, the best recordings (Missa Solemnis, 1954 Eroica) sound perfectly
modern to me. I don't even miss the stereo.
Lenny
<deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vuaipvsq7111k2jti...@4ax.com...
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>A few more weeks go by. Nothing. Finally, in frustration, I called a
>lower-level functionary at BMG. And this guy - out of pity or whatever
>- gave me the REAL story: BMG had no sets to ship me. And why was
>that? Well, according to this poor soul, BMG had hedged their bets in
>their initial assembling of the sets and had only put together about
>300 of them. Unfortunately for me (and any one else wishing to
>purchase one), most of those sets - and I'm not making this up - had
>already been distributed as PROMOS to record reviewers and other
>important types in the biz!
My own sources, Mark, and perhaps not as reliable as yours, indicate
that "promo" copies for this edition were VERY few, indeed.
I have my doubts that 300 copies would have been made as promos.
Really. Just too costly, with little possibility of any "promotion"
from the distribution of them.
TD
Curtis Croulet
Edition" in this thread). Most of them sound about as well as I expected, and I
never found the remastering so bad as to justify boycotting some of the issues
to "punish" BMG (this was repeatedly suggested to me in another on-line forum).
Like Matthew, I was annoyed that the fancy box was issued at a premium price
*after* I'd bought the entire collection as individual issues. But, like you
Tom, I'll be damned if I'm going to buy any more of these without some
assurance -- and I'll have to read it here, from the august members of this
forum -- that the sound is really, truly, significantly better. I've done my
part for the Toscanini Estate. At least one of the metric screws on Walfredo's
Mercedes was bought by me. Maybe no improvement in sound is possible. If so,
and if they still want to keep the AT legacy before the public, then they should
issue them at Naxos prices.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27'59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Matthew燘. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:vpl531t...@corp.supernews.com:
Well said.
Matthew燘. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
news:9b05210b.03102...@posting.google.com:
> You'd think I had learned my lesson with BMG and big sets after the ATE
Sheesh! One wonders what the BMG people were smoking.
ansermetniac
oy兀earthlink.net says...
> "Curtis Croulet" <curt...@pe.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:vpl531t...@corp.supernews.com:
>
> > I have the entire "Toscanini Collection" (the series being called
> > "Toscanini Edition" in this thread). Most of them sound about as well
> > as I expected, and I never found the remastering so bad as to justify
> > boycotting some of the issues to "punish" BMG (this was repeatedly
> > suggested to me in another on-line forum). Like Matthew, I was annoyed
> > that the fancy box was issued at a premium price *after* I'd bought the
> > entire collection as individual issues. But, like you Tom, I'll be
> > damned if I'm going to buy any more of these without some assurance --
> > and I'll have to read it here, from the august members of this forum --
> > that the sound is really, truly, significantly better. I've done my
> > part for the Toscanini Estate. At least one of the metric screws on
> > Walfredo's Mercedes was bought by me. Maybe no improvement in sound is
> > possible. If so, and if they still want to keep the AT legacy before
> > the public, then they should issue them at Naxos prices.
>
> Well said.
>
>
Mark and Matthew and others have said are right on the point.
Here is my input as to how RCA worked/works. My former business
partner's Father was a technician at the RCA tv division in the 50s. He
was the valedictorian at the Radio Institute of NY. And at the 1953
audio show in NY he had a stereo tape deck. With staggered heads. Yes
1953 is correct. But he was hired as a technician. He had a route in
Queens where those dreaded gas tanks used to be. He used to see the
same problems while reparing the TV sets. So he went to his bosses and
said that here are the problems I see and they are design problems. And
he designed the proper solutions. They told him that he was just a
technician and to shut up as they had people upstairs for this.
Yet when Sarnoff needed someone to come to his townhouse every friday,to
make sure that ALL his TVs worked so he would not be embarrased in front
of his friends, Tom Guardala was the man they picked.
I was also told about the "Dead Man's Shoes" syndrome. Nobody,
regardless of quality was promoted unlesssomeone died or left the
company. And it was known that Jews and Italians had no future at RCA .
Yes, David Sarnoff is the prick that everyone knows him to be, although
Mrs. Sarnoff was said to be very nice( stupid maybe, she did lose that
stereo Toscanini and Munh tapes). Who but Sarnoff, a zillionaire, would
disband the NBC Symphony.
So as all good employees did, Tom Guardala left to become Chief Engineer
at Vespro Radio. When Vernitron bought Vespro, their President realized
that motor test equipment was all audio. So they gave Tom a quick course
in motors and he became the country's authority on motor test equipment.
I have been collecting Toscanini sinc the late 70's . I may be a
Ansermetniac but I started with AT and moved to Ansermet upon his
recommendation. And I have made my living the last 25 years by being
one of or maybe THE world's expert on musical sound, frequnecy response
etc. When I started , the most expensive Saxophone Mouthpiece was 75
dollars. Today I get 600-1200 dollars depending on the model. I am a
pretty fair marketing man, but I let the marketing follow my product not
define it. I always put pride of product as a means to profitability.
So I say this to BMG/RCA. What you have done over the years to the
Toscanini Legacy is a "Fuckin Disgrace" You have turned poorly recorded
performances into worse shit. Pander to the masses of "Hi-Fi"
enthusiasts if you wish. Don't you realize that Toscanini recordings are
wanted by Musically informed people? Can't you see what Mark, Ward and
Seth have done?
Come to this forum and listen to what the record /Cd buyers are saying
about you. It is not very pretty. And the members of this group know
more than most critics who make their living praising your fake stereo
and added reverb and and other anti musical things over the years.
As I see it, David Sarnoff's legacy is one of the sorriest of the 20th
Century. Tis a pity. He had the resources to be one of the greatest men
the arts have ever seen. Decca may be holding the Ansermet legacy in the
vaults, but just compare, year for year, what results they got in sound
quality compared to what was given Toscanini. Carnegie Hall was just as
good as the Victoria Hall. Compare Ansermet's 1951 recordings to
Toscanini's
Group-Remember the Ansermet Schummann Spring Syphony I posted for the
vernal equinox. That was 1951.
Jeffrey "Abbedd" Powell
Former, but maybe soon to be again
President and Chief Engineer
Dave Guardala Mouthpieces, Inc.
Dave Guardala Reeds, Inc.
p.s I have been waiting to say these things publicly for a long time. I
feel much better now.
Mark Stenroos
Whatever the reason, the rest of the story is first hand.
BTW - when DGG released their CD Beethoven Edition their seemed to be
quite a few promo copies floating around. Not hundreds, but enough. I
was actually sent two of them, but I think that's because we sold
about 70 copies through MHS.
Hey, has anyone checked Japan for those CRE promos?
Samir Golescu
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> >> But please don't die before you hear the 1939 Toscanini Beethoven
> >> cycle on Naxos
> >
> > What is the T.T. of the 1939 Beethoven cycle?
>
> For the symphonies, 23:09, 32:36, 46:06, 33:21, 31:20, 40:51, 33:05, 25:15,
> and 1:01:43. Were there any other timings that you wished?
No -- and many thanks,
SG
Mark Stenroos
> that "promo" copies for this edition were VERY few, indeed.
>
> I have my doubts that 300 copies would have been made as promos.
> Really. Just too costly, with little possibility of any "promotion"
> from the distribution of them.
>
> TD
Oh, I just remember a couple of additional BMG screw-ups.
One year at MHS, I picked up the Caruso Edition. We ordered 100 copies
to start. When they arrived, I couldn't believe my eyes - most of the
outer slipcases were grossly bleached out. They had obviously been
sitting in a sun-drenched display case in a record store somewhere and
had been returned. Knowing the problems the first issue of the set had
(the red ink used on the label side leeched into the playing side,
making the CD unplaayble and the label side tacky), I opened a few up.
Sure enough, they were the defects. The whole lot went back to BMG
after a very agnry call from me.
This one might be the best: I once picked up their 12-CD Rubinstein
Chopin set to sell. I figured it would do well, so I ordered 300 sets.
BMG called and said they'd rather not send all 300 as their inventory
was running low. I said fine, and we agreed to start with 100. A week
or so later, the 100 showed up. Guess what the problem was this time
(answer below)?
Answer: all 100 sets had been drilled through the slipcase barcode
(and into the jewel box) and had been shipped as promo copies.
Apparently, after two years of buying finished goods from BMG for
resale to MHS customers someone didn't understand one of the wrinkles
of the BMG/MHS contract and just assumed that any record club
requesting finished goods must have needed them as production or promo
copies. Lucky for BMG they didn't send all 300! But, the 100 went back
to be refurbished or whatever, and we received a new shipment in just
a few days' time.
Amazin', ain't it?
Samir Golescu
Not truly amazin', IF there is truth to the rumor that the label was run
by a Romanian. . .
regards,
SG
Derrick Fawsitt
in the recorded sound throughout, can someone suggest a "single"
recording that best represents Toscanini in performance but more
especially sound.
Like most questions of this kind, I am not looking for a list but a
single recording and if I don't have it already, based on your votes I
will immediately go out and buy it.
--
Derrick Fawsitt
deac...@yahoo.com
You sense of trust is truly extraordinary.
TD
Joseph Vitale
news:LNbgcxEoOvm$Ew...@ntlworld.com:
I won't recommend a single performance but I will recommend a
single cd (set). The 1930's BBC Symphony recordings as transferred
by Mark Obert-Thorn on the Biddulph label (for me) best represents
Toscanini's art. For a close runner up I would take a look at the late
1920's and 1930's collection of recordings that Toscanini made with
the New York Philharmonic, and which can be found on a three cd set
in the TE as transferred (this time) by Ward Marston. Despite what has
been said in this thread I (myself) don't hear anything bad in terms
of the sound.
JV
Brendan R. Wehrung
I'm some were simply sent to favored record stores for sale. I recall one
coming in before street date with the serial number of 03, and the sale
clerk commenting that it was unavailable (then) in New York. I think it
sold, too.
Brendan
--
Matthew燘. Tepper
@posting.google.com:
The phrase "The gang that couldn't shoot straight" comes to mind.
I've been giving a lot of thought to something for the past few days,
particularly as I've been reading over insider-informed columns in this
thread. Many people who work in the record industry are remarkable, and I
don't mean that in a nice way. For all that I can tell, they're not
particularly smart, they're often not especially honest, they are most
decidedly greedy, and they frequently show total contempt for the very
customers who are responsible for their own income.
How, then, have they succeeded for so long? My only conclusion is that
they are fantastically lucky. Or rather, that they *were* lucky for the
longest time ... and now that luck has run out for them, and they rush to
blame everybody but themselves.
Imagine how I must cry for them. Boo hoo!
Matthew燘. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
news:9b05210b.03102...@posting.google.com:
> Whatever the reason, the rest of the story is first hand.
>
> BTW - when DGG released their CD Beethoven Edition their seemed to be
> quite a few promo copies floating around. Not hundreds, but enough. I
> was actually sent two of them, but I think that's because we sold
> about 70 copies through MHS.
>
> Hey, has anyone checked Japan for those CRE promos?
Lots of promos are to be found in Los Angeles. There is a certain record
label, one of those which has often been claimed to be of the "majors,"
which must give out dozens to hundreds of copies of just about all of their
classical (and crossover) product. These can be found in practically every
used record store ... and in multiple quantities in some of them, most
particularly at House of Records (which is located a couple doors down from
NARAS offices).
The lessons that they *ought* to have learned from this are that industry
professionals don't want this stuff, and will happily dump it; and that
with so many promos around, lots of collectors won't buy retail either.
I won't specify the name of the label, but I will say that I have been
considering buying a cell phone, and that the overall company bought out
the manufacturer of a couple of the phones I've been looking at.
Derrick Fawsitt
deac...@yahoo.com writes
and knowledge posting to this News Group. Also, I did say, "based on
your votes", in other words the most recommended recording is likely to
be a desirable one.
--
Derrick Fawsitt
Derrick Fawsitt
<jvi...@uic.edu> writes
whereas I did say that I wanted a single recording.
Perhaps I can try again, forget that you have to buy a set to get that
single recording, only that I wish to hold in my hand one performance by
Toscanini that you all can safely say is the "nearest thing" to having
him alive today and making a recording under modern conditions with
modern technology, surely that can be done?
However, thank you again for the above.
--
Derrick Fawsitt
Joseph Vitale
> Thank you for the above and I suppose I will have to accept a set
> whereas I did say that I wanted a single recording.
> Perhaps I can try again, forget that you have to buy a set to get that
> single recording, only that I wish to hold in my hand one performance by
> Toscanini that you all can safely say is the "nearest thing" to having
> him alive today and making a recording under modern conditions with
> modern technology, surely that can be done?
> However, thank you again for the above.
Well, I suppose if you're looking for a Toscanini performance in the
nearest thing to modern sound possible, then I would direct you to the live
1954 Wagner concert recorded in stereo. I don't think BMG ever officially
released it on cd. But it did have a good incarnation on the Music and Arts
label (which I believe is now out of print). It can be had, however, on
other various independent labels, though I could not vouch for how good the
sound is on these "pirate" issues.
See Peter Gutmann's Classical Notes page:
http://www.classicalnotes.net/reviews/toscanini_last.html
JV
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>See Peter Gutmann's Classical Notes page:
>
>http://www.classicalnotes.net/reviews/toscanini_last.html
People wanting "sound advice" might like to check out this site, as
Peter's comments are usually right on the money and without a trace of
snide, supercilious, condescension apparent elsewhere among music
journalists. He also writes well and clearly, as befits someone in the
legal profession.
TD
Paul Goldstein
The best-sounding official Toscanini recordings are probably the Brahms 4, Elgar
Enigmas, and Eroica from the early 1950s. (All three are great performances,
too, IMO.) Alternatively, (and this is rather ironic given RCA's supposed
engineering excellence), try the live Brahms cycle with the Philharmonia on
Testament.
Paul Goldstein
scou...@nospamprovide.net
wrote:
>
>Well, I suppose if you're looking for a Toscanini performance in the
>nearest thing to modern sound possible, then I would direct you to the live
>1954 Wagner concert recorded in stereo. I don't think BMG ever officially
>released it on cd. But it did have a good incarnation on the Music and Arts
>label (which I believe is now out of print). It can be had, however, on
>other various independent labels, though I could not vouch for how good the
>sound is on these "pirate" issues.
>
>
>
The Arkadia release CDMP 414 seems to have better sound than the
Music and Arts release ,...as well as a bonus track of the
Fliegende Hollander Overture from 1938...
Scoundrel
>
>
Brian Stewart
Prologue. For my ears, among the very best and realistic sound ever
achieved with this difficult-to-record conductor (Toscanini's dynamic
range was enormous, and he would not compromise anything to make life
easier for the engineers).
Recorded live (except for the spliced-in final chord) at what turned out
to be his last unarguably great concert: March 14, 1954.
The only trick will be finding a copy. This link (which you may have to
cut-and-paste together:
will take you to Amazon's listing. They are currently out of stock, but
you could try ordering it used. Or other dealers may have it.
I've also seen both the Victrola and the RCA LP's sold on eBay
occasionally. I try to keep a couple of extra copies on hand to give as
gifts (so far, always much appreciated).
Bonuses: The last act of Rigoletto from the Madison Square Garden
concert in 1944, and the I Lombardi Act 3 Trio from a 1943 broadcast
from Studio 8H.
Cheers!
Brian Stewart
ansermetniac
@optonline.net says...
I agree about the sound of the Boito. Just listen to the Trombones and
Tuba. And for a binus the Cd has the 1944 Rigoletto
Abbedd
Derrick Fawsitt
>Tuba. And for a binus the Cd has the 1944 Rigoletto
>
>
>Abbedd
Thank you all, I did not think that I would find anyone with the
patience to accede to my request, but I was wrong. Thank you all so
much. As to the above, Abbedd, I am a Bass Trombone player so that
recording will suit me fine!!!
--
Derrick Fawsitt
ansermetniac
says...
Neil Dibiasi Pricipal Bone
Abe Pearlstein Second
John Clark Bass who finished his carrer at the Met
Joe Novotny Tuba
You should also get Toscanini's Till Eulenspiegel to hear superhuman low
brass playing with the same section members
Abbedd
Derrick Fawsitt
<anserm...@optonline.net> writes
follow up your information. I will enjoy discussing your Brass section
with my friends and comparing notes.
I am hotfoot off to buy that Till recording, I have always believed that
most of the really greatest orchestras in the world are very strong in
the "lower regions", i.e. Double Basses, Cellos, and of course the
Brass's "Heavy Artillery", convince me otherwise.
Kind regards
--
Derrick Fawsitt
emf
> On 24 Oct 2003 02:59:23 -0700, chez_to...@yahoo.com (emf) wrote:
>
> >This is just the kind of news I would expect. Together with the
> >question: is this the beginning of the real and correct re-issue of
> >the old Toscanini edition?
> >Ezio Ferdeghini
>
> Ezio, not wanting to either dampen your enthusiasm and at the risk of
> seeming like an old man, which I am, of course, I still have to
> respond negatively to this "news".
>
Well, I thought to be a deep pessimistic man (47 years old) and I
spent a lot of money to get re and rere and rerereissues, of AT RCA
recordings. But you are really deeper than me! Apart from jokes, in
effects it sounded to me very strange a new rererereissue with no
advertising. So, this time I asked before my enthusiasm could fail,
and my money flies again.
In my cd-library I have also something fine, thanks to Obert-Thorn,
Marston, Winner and Pf....(damn it, I do not remind, now, SORRY). And
though not at the same levels also Caniell's remasterings for Guild.
and also some more realistic AT recordings (the London Brahms for
instance, on Testament). So I hope that RCA could be better than
itself: and as we say in Italy, hope is the last to die.
Ciao
Ezio
emf
of the Ballo in Maschera of 1954. I have it no more, damn it. It was
not apart of the Toscanini Edition (the Italian vynil was really
inferior to the Usa, as reported at the time by resellers and
connosseurs). But that Ballo was an experience unique. I remember the
yellow box. I remember the Half-speed technique used to get it. And
last but not least, I remember that the sound engineering was
performed in Milan, Italy! I was so sad when I got the CD reissue, so
unfocused.
I had to wait for Obert-Thorn, Marston and Winner, to get similar
emotions. And about the BBC cycle, after a few more meditated
listenings of the Naxos re-issue, I've found an effective improvement
with respect to the Biddulph edition (differently from what I
expressed here, at the time).
Ciao Ezio
Brian Stewart
You, too!?! In High School and College I'd play 1st in the Band, but in
the Orchestra, always Bass Trombone.
Cheers!
Brian Stewart
P.S. I'd have suggested the Mussorgsky "Pictures at an Exhibition" if
I'd ever been really happy with the sound of any edition I'd heard.
(Generally, I find them too nasal: a couple of dB down on an EQ in the
3K-10K range can help some.) That aside, it's AT at his best, and
there's some awesome bone work happening in this piece.
Brian Stewart
ansermetniac wrote:
> In article <hw16zuAVjDn$Ew...@ntlworld.com>, 4...@fitzwilliamonline.com
> says...
>
>>>I agree about the sound of the Boito. Just listen to the Trombones and
>>>Tuba. And for a binus the Cd has the 1944 Rigoletto
>>>
>>>
>>>Abbedd
>>
>>Thank you all, I did not think that I would find anyone with the
>>patience to accede to my request, but I was wrong. Thank you all so
>>much. As to the above, Abbedd, I am a Bass Trombone player so that
>>recording will suit me fine!!!
>>
>
> Then you should know that the personel is:
>
> Neil Dibiasi Pricipal Bone
> Abe Pearlstein Second
> John Clark Bass who finished his carrer at the Met
> Joe Novotny Tuba
Hi, Abbedd-
Do you happen to have the years of service for the brass men of the NBC.
An apparently unreliable source told me it was Ostrander on Bass
Trombone in the last years.
Cheers!
Brian Stewart
ansermetniac
@optonline.net says...
39 to the 1945-46 season. He then moved to the NY Phil until 1975. In
1946 Abe Pearlstein the Phil's bass bone came back from the Army. He
moved 5 blocks downtown to the second chair in NBC. His wartime sub in
the Phil, John Clark took over the bass bone chair in NBC
Lead bone in NBC was Armand Ruta, then Gardell Simmons and then Neil
Dibiasi.
Tuba was
Bill Bell 1937-43
Herb Jenkel 1943-47
Abe Torchinsky 1948
Joe Novotney 1949-1954
Trumpets were Bernard Baker Principal 1937-42. Harry Glantz took over
1942-1954. Frank Falcone played second trumpet probably joining when
Glantz did. Nat Prager was asked to come along with Glantz but did not
want to play first for the 20 hours done per week without Toscanini. Ray
Crisara was the third trumpet probably from the late 40s to 1954.
The horns were Albert Stagliano principal for the first year with Cerino
playing second. The last 16 years were
Arthur Berv principal
Jack Berv Second
Harry Berv-third
Arturo Cerino-Fourth
Alfredo corrado assistant 1938-1950
Tony Miranda Assistant 1951-1954
All this information is from my private research and talking to people
in the businesat trade shows.
Hope this helps.
BTW Get Toscanini's Harold in Italy. John Clark will amaze you in the
finale. I just heard the real braodcast. The finale on the CD is
obviously the dress rehearsal.
BTW Ostrander, near the end of his life was doing a clinic in Oneonta.
Someone asked him if he could still play at his age. So he picked up his
ax and blasted Ride of the Valkyries like a twenty year old. Get Lenny's
Tchaik Fifth. The low As in the second movement, the answer to the
trumpet call will astound you. Ostrander is obviously blowing right into
a mike. At least on the LP.
Abbedd
Abbedd
Brian Stewart
ansermetniac wrote:
<snip>
>>Hi, Abbedd-
>>
>>Do you happen to have the years of service for the brass men of the NBC.
>> An apparently unreliable source told me it was Ostrander on Bass
>>Trombone in the last years.
>>
>>Cheers!
>>
>>Brian Stewart
>>
<snip>
Fantastic! Just what I was looking for. Thank you.
Do you happen to know what became of Ruta? Listening to the NBC
broadcasts of the first season, he never seemed to be able to get onto
AT's wavelength. Simmons was a big improvement.
>
> BTW Get Toscanini's Harold in Italy. John Clark will amaze you in the
> finale. I just heard the real braodcast. The finale on the CD is
> obviously the dress rehearsal.
>
I have both the RCA release and the broadcast. AT was certainly off his
feed for that performance, wasn't he? The Tannhaeuser Act 3 Prelude was
fine, but that logey tempo for the last movement of "Harold"! The
orchestra sounds like it is really struggling, unsuccessfully imo, to
reshape the phrasing on the fly to suit. And the sudden, and to me
unpersuasive, jump up to the expected tempo at the last minute.
And I hear problems elsewhere as well.
> BTW Ostrander, near the end of his life was doing a clinic in Oneonta.
> Someone asked him if he could still play at his age. So he picked up his
> ax and blasted Ride of the Valkyries like a twenty year old. Get Lenny's
> Tchaik Fifth. The low As in the second movement, the answer to the
> trumpet call will astound you. Ostrander is obviously blowing right into
> a mike. At least on the LP.
I'll look for it. Thanks.
Cheers!
Brian Stewart
>
>
> Abbedd
>
> Abbedd
>
David7Gable
>extract more and more money from our wallets for this stuff.
This is the single most innocent fact about the whole enterprise.
-david gable
David7Gable
>of the Ballo in Maschera of 1954. I have it no more, damn it.
I had that, too! But parted with it in an unfortunate shedding of a number of
LP's. What a terrific performance. (Have the LP's with the dagger and mask on
the cover semi-stolen from an uncle's collection and also the CD's.)
-david gable
David7Gable
I have yet to hear any performance of Beethoven's 4th symphony as good as AT's
with the NBC SO. And above all of measure 17 of the slow movement and every
other measure in that movement where that thrice repeated roller-coaster-ride
thirty-second note motive recurs with sforzandi on the second half of each of
the three beats in the measure, but sforzandi emerging within seamless
crescendi seamlessly followed by seamless descrescendi:
(rest) 2 3 4 **5** 6 7 8 (rest) 2 3 4 **5** 6 7 8 (rest) 2 3 4 **5** 6 7 8
The technical control Toscanini exerted in realizing this little passage is
unbelievable: if you don't think so, just listen to anybody else and compare.
Whether or not you like what Toscanini was capable of, this in a nutshell is a
perfect example of it. It is also extraordinarily responsive to Beethoven's
rhythmic conception.
-david gable
David7Gable
>of the remakes.
So do I. In the case of the recordings I know, which includes at least all of
the Verdi and the NBC SO Beethoven symphonies and the Walkuere Act I scene 3
and Gotterdamerung Dawn, Duet, Rhine Journey.
-david gable
Curtis Croulet
April 1960, Peter J. Pirie specifically singled out this movement for criticism.
He criticized AT for breaking up these passages into little sections, and, IIRC,
he called the entire performance "cold blooded."
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27'59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Mark Stenroos
> I have yet to hear any performance of Beethoven's 4th symphony as good as AT's
> with the NBC SO.
>
Too bad the little bassoon lick in the Finale is almost inaudible in
this recording.
The 4th is my favorite Beethoven Symphony, but I'm sorry to say this
particular recording isn't among my favs by any stretch of the
imagination.
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
I wonder if Bruno Walter's with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra might
be among those faves, Mark. It surely is among mine, and Walter gets
the slow movement right, double-dotting and all.
TD
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
news:9b05210b.03102...@posting.google.com:
> david...@aol.com (David7Gable) wrote in message
> news:<20031029031331...@mb-m16.aol.com>...
>> I have yet to hear any performance of Beethoven's 4th symphony as
>> good as AT's with the NBC SO.
>>
>> -david gable
>
> Too bad the little bassoon lick in the Finale is almost inaudible in
> this recording.
And yet he worried about the audibility of "dose bassoons" in the
Consecration of the House Overture.
> The 4th is my favorite Beethoven Symphony, but I'm sorry to say this
> particular recording isn't among my favs by any stretch of the
> imagination.
I prefer the one he did with the BBC Symphony.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's Fault!
ansermetniac
oy兀earthlink.net says...
> markst...@yahoo.com (Mark Stenroos) appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in
> news:9b05210b.03102...@posting.google.com:
>
> > david...@aol.com (David7Gable) wrote in message
> > news:<20031029031331...@mb-m16.aol.com>...
> >> I have yet to hear any performance of Beethoven's 4th symphony as
> >> good as AT's with the NBC SO.
> >>
> >> -david gable
> >
> > Too bad the little bassoon lick in the Finale is almost inaudible in
> > this recording.
>
> And yet he worried about the audibility of "dose bassoons" in the
> Consecration of the House Overture.
>
> > The 4th is my favorite Beethoven Symphony, but I'm sorry to say this
> > particular recording isn't among my favs by any stretch of the
> > imagination.
>
> I prefer the one he did with the BBC Symphony.
>
>
BBC is the Ansermet.
Abbedd