Horenstein Bruckner 8th
HenryFogel
circulated for years, most notably on Intaglio and on Music & Arts. Those
transfers seemed quite good -- but the new BBC remastering (BBC Music BBCL
4017-2) is spectacular. Both ends of the frequency spectrum seem better
reproduced, and there is a clarity and impact to this recording now that has
not been there before. And it reveals a performance of even greater power than
we had all thought. It is coupled with an equally remarkable, and also
wonderfully transferred, Bruckner 9th. I don't know when the US release is,
but I ordered this from Music Discount Centre in London
<Cla...@mdcmusic.co.uk>.
Henry Fogel
Tony Movshon
Damn you, Fogel. After reading Tony Duggan's review of this release on
the Mahler list, I had decided that I didn't need to replace my
Intaglios (Intaglii?) of these performances -- TD represents the
improvement in sound as quite modest.
Why can't you guys get your act[s] together?
--
Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
Center for Neural Science New York University
HenryFogel
>From: to...@cns.nyu.edu (Tony Movshon)
>Date: 4/D/YYYY 1:27 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <Fg7O2.7$VF4...@typhoon.nyu.edu>
Sorry 'bout that. It probably is not as clear a matter as one would like it to
be. The Intaglio (and M&A) were, as I said, good transfers. I find that if I
make an A-B comparison of any passage, the difference is, in fact, modest. But
I find that in listening over the entire span of the symphony, the greater
openness of sound, and clarity, particularly in the upper frequenices, makes a
cumulative difference of some magnititude. That difference is, I think,
particularly telling in the string sound -- in the colors that Horenstein gets
from the violins. For me, unfortunately, it adds up to having been a worthwhile
investment.
Henry Fogel
Tony Duggan
> >Damn you, Fogel. After reading Tony Duggan's review of this release on
> >the Mahler list, I had decided that I didn't need to replace my
> >Intaglios (Intaglii?) of these performances -- TD represents the
> >improvement in sound as quite modest.
> >
> >Why can't you guys get your act[s] together?
> >
>
> Sorry 'bout that. It probably is not as clear a matter as one would like it to
> be. The Intaglio (and M&A) were, as I said, good transfers. I find that if I
> make an A-B comparison of any passage, the difference is, in fact, modest. But
> I find that in listening over the entire span of the symphony, the greater
> openness of sound, and clarity, particularly in the upper frequenices, makes a
> cumulative difference of some magnititude. That difference is, I think,
> particularly telling in the string sound -- in the colors that Horenstein gets
> from the violins. For me, unfortunately, it adds up to having been a worthwhile
> investment.
Let it be said that my A/B comparision was with the Music and Arts and
not the Intaglio. I started from the premise that the Music and
Arts was always a very good transfer for what was an aircheck. (In
fact, for an aircheck it was little short of miraculous. I can
even remember the air it was checked from. It was the repeat of
the broadcast around 1973 rather than the live broadcast in 1970.
I know that from the fading of the appplause. I taped it myself
that night and have been able to compare the way the applause are
cut to the split second.) As I said on the Mahler List, there is
an improvement in favour of the new BBC - closer in, higher level,
a touch more substance - but Henry makes a good point regarding
cumulative listening. I'm afraid that I often view these matters
of whether one should duplicate an issue from my own situation
in that I am on a very limited income and have to count the
pennies. Truth to tell had I possessed the Bruckner Ninth that
is contained on this BBC issue on a CD already, instead of the
old second generation tape I have had to put up with these
past years, I doubt I would have been able to justify the
expense. I'm glad I could, though.
I am about to post a review to the Mahler List of the BBC Legends
issue of the Barbirolli Mahler 4th from Prague. THIS was on an
Intaglio (off-pitch, limited sound and with three bars missing)
and there is no question that in this case the BBC Legends issue
is superior by a very long way indeed. So far as duplication
is concerned, this is a "must buy". If you only know this
performance from the Intaglio then you will be astounded by what
you hear on the new issue. The old analogy of the cleaned-up
painting has never been more apt.
--
Tony Duggan
Staffordshire,
United Kingdom.
--
Tony Duggan
Staffordshire,
United Kingdom.
Tony Duggan
> the new BBC remastering (BBC Music BBCL 4017-2) is spectacular. Both ends
> of the frequency spectrum seem better reproduced, and there is a clarity and
> impact to this recording now that has not been there before. And it reveals a
> performance of even greater power than we had all thought. It is coupled with
> an equally remarkable, and also wonderfully transferred, Bruckner 9th.
I have never really felt the JH 9th was in quite the same class as the
8th. This 8th I've always regarded as the greatest I know, but the 9th
appears to misfire. I think the first movement sprawls quite a bit
and the BBC Symphony don't seem to be quite in tune with Horenstein.
They WERE "in tune" the following year at the Proms when they gave a
superb Bruckner 5th for him, but at the RFH in December 1970 I think
there was something not quite right. I have known the climax to
the last movement raise more hairs than here and on Horenstein's
old Vox recording. Now THERE is a great Bruckner 9th. The London
one IS well worth hearing and owning, though. Even on an "off night"
Horenstein demands attention over many others. You just expect so
much from him each time.....at least, I do anyway.
Michael Weston
: transfers seemed quite good -- but the new BBC remastering (BBC Music BBCL
: 4017-2) is spectacular. Both ends of the frequency spectrum seem better
To me, it has seemed that only Horenstein really knew how to end the 8th,
with smashing emphasis to the final chord, the last three forming a phrase
of building power. More than once, I've thought such a lick almost
impossible given how tired everyone must have been, and the relative ease
of, say, turning up the volume in the remastering booth. Am I to assume
that the close of the performance is just as overwhelming as on Intaglio?
Not that it will play any role in my purchasing decision.
mw
Tony Duggan
>
> HenryFogel <henry...@aol.com> wrote:
> : transfers seemed quite good -- but the new BBC remastering (BBC Music BBCL
> : 4017-2) is spectacular. Both ends of the frequency spectrum seem better
> : Henry Fogel
>
> To me, it has seemed that only Horenstein really knew how to end the 8th,
> with smashing emphasis to the final chord, the last three forming a phrase
> of building power. More than once, I've thought such a lick almost
What you may not be aware of his how REALLY tired some of the orchestra
must have been. In that concert at the Royal Albert Hall in 1970 the
Bruckner 8th under Horenstein was the second item on the programme !
(They had long ones at the BBC Proms in those days.) In the first
half the LSO's winds had played the Mozart Serenade No.10 K.366
conducted by Gervase de Peyer (principal clarinet) so it was quite
a long night for them. They must have played themselves in
rather than tiring themselves out.
XSqualeX
>What you may not be aware of his how REALLY tired some of the orchestra
>must have been. In that concert at the Royal Albert Hall in 1970 the
>Bruckner 8th under Horenstein was the second item on the programme !
How does this compare to the recently issued Horenstien 8th on BBC legends from
1959?
The one that has the interview with Horenstein. I am thinking of getting it.
Should I now wait for the 1970 version.
Regards,
Pasquale Polcaro
Tony Duggan
Some confusion here. (A LOT of confusion !) The 1970 performance we
are talking about is of *BRUCKNER'S* 8th and that is just out on BBC
Legends. The Eighth already on BBC Legends from 1959 (with the
interview with Hrenstein) is *MAHLER'S* 8th. You need both, of
course.
Bruce Morrison
<scri...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>Henry Fogel wrote:
>
>> the new BBC remastering (BBC Music BBCL 4017-2) is spectacular. Both ends
>> of the frequency spectrum seem better reproduced, and there is a clarity and
>> impact to this recording now that has not been there before. And it reveals a
>> performance of even greater power than we had all thought. It is coupled with
>> an equally remarkable, and also wonderfully transferred, Bruckner 9th.
>
>I have never really felt the JH 9th was in quite the same class as the
>8th. This 8th I've always regarded as the greatest I know, but the 9th
>appears to misfire. I think the first movement sprawls quite a bit
>and the BBC Symphony don't seem to be quite in tune with Horenstein.
>They WERE "in tune" the following year at the Proms when they gave a
>superb Bruckner 5th for him...
[snip]
Speaking of that splendid performance of the 5th, I hope it will also
appear in the BBC Legends series before long. Has anyone heard
whether it's in the plans? The Music & Arts disc is perfectly
acceptable, but I suspect we would see a similar improvement in an
"official" release.
--
Bruce Morrison (bruce.m...@dial.pipex.com)
"If a tune should ever occur to you, don't hesitate to write it down."
(Vaughan Williams' advice on hearing a young composer's latest offering)
George Murnu
>
> I do know what the next BBC Legends Horenstein issue will be and it
> isn't that one.
>
> --
> Tony Duggan
> Staffordshire,
> United Kingdom.
So could you please tell us what the next BBC legends releases will be?
Thanks,
George
George Murnu
> >
>
> As long as that is -- it is only tiring for 13 wind players. I once saw the
> Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra, Gerd Albrecht conducting, on tour in the US (concert
> was in Syracuse) give the longest concert I think I've ever heard: an opening
> work, about 10-12 minutes long, by Heinz Holliger. Beethoven's Piano Concerto
> #2 (Justus Frantz, pianist). Intermission. Bruckner 8th!!
>
> Henry Fogel
Well, I remember a concert in Romania which was about as long ( yet
never seemed tiresome ): a work by a contemporary Romanian composer,
Rachmaninov's Third Piano Concerto ( uncut ), and Liszt's Faust
Symphony.
Regards,
George
Michael Weston
: I do know what the next BBC Legends Horenstein issue will be and it
: isn't that one.
And if he told us, he'd have to kill us.
Tony Duggan
> >I have never really felt the JH 9th was in quite the same class as the
> >8th. This 8th I've always regarded as the greatest I know, but the 9th
> >appears to misfire. I think the first movement sprawls quite a bit
> >and the BBC Symphony don't seem to be quite in tune with Horenstein.
> >They WERE "in tune" the following year at the Proms when they gave a
> >superb Bruckner 5th for him...
> [snip]
>
> Speaking of that splendid performance of the 5th, I hope it will also
> appear in the BBC Legends series before long. Has anyone heard
> whether it's in the plans? The Music & Arts disc is perfectly
> acceptable, but I suspect we would see a similar improvement in an
> "official" release.
I do know what the next BBC Legends Horenstein issue will be and it
isn't that one.
--
XSqualeX
performance we
>are talking about is of *BRUCKNER'S* 8th and that is just out on BBC
>Legends. The Eighth already on BBC Legends from 1959 (with the
>interview with Hrenstein) is
>*MAHLER'S* 8th. You need both, of
>course.
>
Regards,
Pasquale Polcaro
HenryFogel
>appear in the BBC Legends series before long. Has anyone heard
>whether it's in the plans? The Music & Arts disc is perfectly
>acceptable, but I suspect we would see a similar improvement in an
>"official" release.
>
>Bruce Morrison (bruce.m...@dial.pipex.com)
>"If a tune should ever occur to you, don't hesitate to write it down."
>(Vaughan Williams' advice on hearing a young composer's latest offering)
>
>
>
>
That there is room for improvement over the Music & Arts transfer, acceptable
though it is, is proven by a transfer on the Italian Phoenix label.(PX 703.1).
The Phoenix, which Yakov Horenstein had something to do with, sounds notably
richer and cleaner, with a wider dynamic range. Unfortunately, it seems very
difficult to find -- but its existence does demonstrate the possibility for
improvement.
Henry Fogel
HenryFogel
>Date: 4/D/YYYY 11:14 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <370A33...@dial.pipex.com>>> : transfers seemed quite good -- but the new BBC remastering (BBC Music
>BBCL
>> : 4017-2) is spectacular. Both ends of the frequency spectrum seem better
>>
>> To me, it has seemed that only Horenstein really knew how to end the 8th,
>> with smashing emphasis to the final chord, the last three forming a phrase
>> of building power. More than once, I've thought such a lick almost
>> impossible given how tired everyone must have been.......
>
>must have been. In that concert at the Royal Albert Hall in 1970 the
>Bruckner 8th under Horenstein was the second item on the programme !
>half the LSO's winds had played the Mozart Serenade No.10 K.366
>conducted by Gervase de Peyer (principal clarinet) so it was quite
>a long night for them. They must have played themselves in
>rather than tiring themselves out.
>
>Tony Duggan
>Staffordshire,
>United Kingdom.
>
As long as that is -- it is only tiring for 13 wind players. I once saw the
Tony Movshon
henry...@aol.com (HenryFogel) writes:
> As long as that is -- it is only tiring for 13 wind players. I once saw the
> Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra, Gerd Albrecht conducting, on tour in the US (concert
> was in Syracuse) give the longest concert I think I've ever heard: an opening
> work, about 10-12 minutes long, by Heinz Holliger. Beethoven's Piano Concerto
> #2 (Justus Frantz, pianist). Intermission. Bruckner 8th!!
I remember an interview with one of the players from the Met Orchestra
in the 70s, who likened playing Die Frau ohne Schatten (under Bohm,
iirc) to playing 3 Mahler symphonies back to back.
Tony Duggan
>
> Tony Duggan <scri...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> : I do know what the next BBC Legends Horenstein issue will be and it
> : isn't that one.
>
I'd be able to use a hammer and two rather than three blows ought
to do it. I'm superstitious.
Tony Duggan
>
> [snip]
> >
> > I do know what the next BBC Legends Horenstein issue will be and it
> > isn't that one.
> >
> > Tony Duggan
> > Staffordshire,
> > United Kingdom.
>
I believe it will be the Mahler Sixth with the Bournemouth Symphony.
It will be its first ever outing on disc of any kind. I have heard
it and it's tremendous. All the virtues of the Stockholm one with
a far better orchestra.
Also I have heard a whisper of the Barbirolli Mahler Seventh but I
am not as certain of that.
Bob
>As long as that is -- it is only tiring for 13 wind players. I once saw the
>Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra, Gerd Albrecht conducting, on tour in the US (concert
>was in Syracuse) give the longest concert I think I've ever heard: an opening
>work, about 10-12 minutes long, by Heinz Holliger. Beethoven's Piano Concerto
>#2 (Justus Frantz, pianist). Intermission. Bruckner 8th!!
A concert of similar structure and greater (or at least identical)
length was with Chicago/Solti in the late 1970s. First half
consisted of Marvin David Levy's Piano Concerto (about
the Beethoven #2 + 12 min) followed by Bruckner #8. It was, for me,
an unforgettable night in NY's Carnegie Hall, not only due to the
superb Solti/CSO Bruckner but also to the lady seated next to me. She
managed to sleep through the entire concert. During the ovation that
followed the Bruckner, she turned to me and asked if "would there be
an encore?" I responded "Oh, are you still tired?"
Commspkmn
playing the Brahms Bflat after the inteval, the audience had already sat though
Bruckner 8 in the 1st half. >>
I would have been delighted to suffer through that concert.
Ken Meltzer
Neil
>I believe it will be the Mahler Sixth with the Bournemouth Symphony.
>It will be its first ever outing on disc of any kind. I have heard
>it and it's tremendous. All the virtues of the Stockholm one with
>a far better orchestra.
This would be an answer to many prayers. Though I'm one of the small band of
people who adore the Stockholm recording full stop. I can cope with the less
than great orchestra aftre years of coping with concerts under Thompson (who
came closer than anyone to ruining the formerly fine band ...) The
interpretation to my ears addresses all the interpretative quibbles i had with
other versions.
>Also I have heard a whisper of the Barbirolli Mahler Seventh but I
>am not as certain of that.
I have a very dim copy of this but the performance ranks with Horenstein as one
of the most satisying ever (perhaps even greater than Horenstein ...)
Neil
Eomike52
the possibility of the Mahler 6th.
According to someone at Tower (E Village-NYC) the USA release date of the
BBC Bruckners is May 18th...
An aside- unfortunately, I don't think we will see anything from Vox
anytime soon. I've had discussions with the fellow running that unit of Essex
Entertainment- and the "powers-that-be" keep loading him up with other
projects... too bad. With these BBC re-issues heightening interest in JH,
Vox/Essex could really be missing the boat here...
Tony Duggan
> >Also I have heard a whisper of the Barbirolli Mahler Seventh but I
> >am not as certain of that.
>
> I have a very dim copy of this but the performance ranks with Horenstein as one
> of the most satisying ever (perhaps even greater than Horenstein ...)
I also have a dim copy (Halle and BBC NSO combined) and it is a huge
performance. Klemperer-like tempi in parts and yet he pulls it off.