Haydn Piano Recommendations

[Notsure01]

While I really enjoy Haydn symphonies, quartets, trios and masses, I'm
only familiar with a few of his piano sonatas. I'm wondering if Dan,
Mandryka, or another kind soul could point me to some of the more
interesting works and stronger performances?

As always, I'm very grateful for all your help!

[Herman]

Haydn's keyboard sonatas are terrific. There are plenty of good recordings around, so much so it seems it's impossible to turn in a bad performance.

[Notsure01]

I don't doubt it, having enjoyed exploring so many of his great quartets
and symphonies over the years!

But my dilemma - and it is a wonderful one - is that with so much great
music it's hard to know where to start. I (obviously!) have a lot of
time on my hands now, and I'm interested in an enormous number of
composers and genres. I just finished intensely exploring the Messiaen
Quatour - and am planning to try late Stravinsky. Also, I haven't
listened to Meistersinger in years and was hoping to set aside a little
time for that..

Consider the Haydn Baryton trios (and I wouldn't be surprised if you
have already) with 123 of them there certainly those that are stronger,
and since they are relatively obscure they may have attracted less than
first rate performers. My hope is that when (2032? 2052?) I get around
to trying them I don't end up choosing one of the weaker works!

That's why it would great if the many knowledgable folks here could
point out just a few specific recordings of the Haydn sonatas that they
particularly enjoy - and I can take it from there..

Thanks!

[Herman]

Richter's got a couple nice ones, Pletnev, Brendel's got four cds with Haydn sonatas.

[Mandryka]

> That's why it would great if the many knowledgable folks here could
> point out just a few specific recordings of the Haydn sonatas that they
> particularly enjoy - and I can take it from there..
>
> Thanks!

Well, the first pianist who really caught my attention was Deszo Ranki on Hungaroton. And then for a long time I played the Pogorelich performance of sonata 19 in the car all the time -- Beghin probably just as interesting for me in that sonata at least.

A particularly expressive one is 33. Youri Egorov recorded it, here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ds0WiQ0kwU&t=269s&ab_channel=wimmoh



That should keep you get you started.

[Mandryka]

I'll be interested to hear what you make of the music -- I think it's so different from CPE Bach's or Mozart's.

[Graham]

Bavouzet has recorded several volumes on Chandos and his performances
are pretty good.

[mINE109]

You could do worse than Bavouzet for relatively recent recordings of the
piano sonatas in the current style, clean and articulated.

There are so many good individual performances. I like Horowitz in No 49
in E-flat, especially his early recording on EMI, and Staier on an old
piano for No 52 in E-flat for two. Others to try: No 20 in c minor; No
48 in C major; Variations in f minor; No 46 in A-flat.

I'm not overly familiar with the performances, but the Virtual Haydn by
Tom Beghin on a variety of instruments and presented in surround sound
on bluray is an interesting collection. On spotify if 15 hours of
programming seems too much of a commitment for purchase.

[HT]

Op dinsdag 6 december 2022 om 21:13:22 UTC+1 schreef Notsure01:

> While I really enjoy Haydn symphonies, quartets, trios and masses, I'm
> only familiar with a few of his piano sonatas. I'm wondering if Dan,
> Mandryka, or another kind soul could point me to some of the more
> interesting works and stronger performances?

Hamelin has a not complete set and Bavouzet a not yet complete set. I
'm not a fan of Hamelin's Haydn. Bavouzet is great if you want a consistent and excellent Haydn.
Derzhavina loves surprising her listeners. Often it's a very pleasant surprise.

Henk

[Dan Koren]

Ekaterina Derzhavina leaves everybody else
in the proverbial dust:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mv16hCTAGS8VWaXS2-OTn8XkyOM1ya3Fw

Next best choice is Lubov Timofeyeva:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCFP79P7Gg

Do you ever read record reviews? Or do you
expect this ng to spoon feed your lack of
initiative and intellectual curiosity?

Enjoy!

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 12:24:58 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
>
> Haydn's keyboard sonatas are terrific.

They are!

> There are plenty of good recordings around,
> so much so it seems it's impossible to turn
> in a bad performance.

Have you heard Gould?

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 1:51:54 PM UTC-8, Mandryka wrote:
>
> I'll be interested to hear what you
> make of the music -- I think it's so
> different from CPE Bach's or Mozart's.

Unlike other composers at the time,
Haydn wasn't copying anyone else! ;-)

dk

[Peter]

I actually like the first two volumes of Hamelin's Haydn, but the third is weaker. I'm looking forward to Bavouzet. Brautigam is OK, but I'll admit I struggle with the fp.

Hamelin seems to up the tempo of the fast movements, which has come in for criticism. I mostly like that, feeling he accentuates the playfulness and "cabinet of curiosities" aspects of the music. ("Look at the amazing sounds I can get from this humdrum theme!")

Really, you can't go wrong with the sonatas. Even the early ones hold your attention; they appeal sort of the way Scarlatti does. Then Haydn figures out how expand on the architecture and they just get better.

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 4:58:10 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 12:13:22 PM UTC-8, Notsure01 wrote:
> > While I really enjoy Haydn symphonies, quartets, trios and masses, I'm
> > only familiar with a few of his piano sonatas. I'm wondering if Dan,
> > Mandryka, or another kind soul could point me to some of the more
> > interesting works and stronger performances?
> >
> > As always, I'm very grateful for all your help!
> Ekaterina Derzhavina leaves everybody else
> in the proverbial dust:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mv16hCTAGS8VWaXS2-OTn8XkyOM1ya3Fw
>
> Next best choice is Lubov Timofeyeva:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCFP79P7Gg
>

Derzhavina's set is in separate files,
while Timofeyeva's is in a single
indexed file. I have them on my
disk and I would be happy to
upload them for folks who
are unable or unwilling to
download them themselves.

dk

[Jonathan Ben Schragadove]

I'm enjoying both of these! Thank you, Dan!

[Notsure01]

On 12/6/22 7:58 PM, Dan Koren wrote:

> Do you ever read record reviews? Or do you
> expect this ng to spoon feed your lack of
> initiative and intellectual curiosity?
>
> Enjoy!
>
> dk

Which reviews? Like this one from Gramophone:

(Stern warning -- do not read the following immediately after eating a
spicy stew!!)

"Brendel's steady illumination of Haydn is a delight. He is at once a
scrupulous and a robust interpreter, setting out from a careful reading
of the text to seek the most vivid projection of Haydn's ideas—and I
admire especially the way he allows boldness, even daring, to play a
part in the search. The playing is alive with a feeling of spontaneity
and the capricious side of Haydn is served as generously as the rest of
him. ''The perceptiveness and musicality of his playing may well be a
revelation even to those who know that Haydn's keyboard sonatas, still
shamefully neglected, are every bit as good as Mozart's''.

(Even I, who often dish out the hooey with my grandiloquent way of
writing, find this hard to swallow!)

I do read reviews - I have most of the Penguin guides, sometimes look at
Fanfare and Gramophone, check the online review sites - and enjoy (most
of) "The Hurwitz Videos".

It's unclear anyway how reviews would help resolve my specific question.
A review is of a specific recording of a few particular sonatas, and
wouldn't help me to navigate across 52 sonatas to choose a few to start on.

Now please don't try to talk me out of this, but wouldn't I be better
off asking a knowledgable friend for advice? Someone whose taste and
preferences are familiar to me - and with whom I can then exchange
ideas? Let me call this friend "Dan" - and not something else!

Thanks for all your advice!!!

[Andrew Clarke]

Alfred Brendel is generally disliked in this group and has been for many years. We used to get feeble jokes about BrenDULL - and, less frequently, the KoDULLy Quartet on Naxos - which surprised me because in Australia he was generally admired, and in my opinion, rightly so.

The "Gramophone" reviewer seems to be telling us several times with slight variations in vocabulary, that while Brendel's Haydn is evidently based on a close understanding of the scores, this is not reflected in a pu pedantic approach to the music, but one in which the pianist is prepared to be as spontaneous and bold in his interpretation of the sonatas as anyone else". Boiled down to this less exuberant evaluation, may this not be true? The only way, really, to discover this is to listen. Even the short extracts available on online record shops can help here - I use Presto Music with a bit of help from Hyperion.

I treasure some remembered Gramophone reviews, for their cultivated stupidity: one of their senior reviewers compared a chamber orchestra performance of Beethoven's 'Pastoral' to 'the kind of wine you buy with a screw cap on the bottle instead of a cork', which proved to be (a) an unwise analogy, since virtually all Australian wines these days have metal caps as this prevents the wine being 'corked' and (b) musically wrong as far as I'm concerned, as it's a lovely lucid performance that convinced me of the virtues of small orchestra Beethove. It's also on Naxos, which, as it is a budget label, our reviewer felt it it was safe to damn their recordings with faint praise, or maybe no praise whatsoever. Another reviewer didn't like the rolling soldiers at the opening of Laurent Pelly's "Grande Duchesse de Gerolstein" and similarly damned the same director's "Belle Helene" on the grounds that the leading role was written for a much younger woman (it's sung here by the incomparable Dame Felicity Lott). This latter production is also famous for a brief appearance of the great French baroque diva Stephanie d'Oustrac, clad only in her lingerie.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 9:22:55 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> The "Gramophone" reviewer seems to be telling us several times with slight variations
> in vocabulary, that while Brendel's Haydn is evidently based on a close understanding of
> the scores, this is not reflected in a pu pedantic approach to the music, but one in which
> the pianist is prepared to be as spontaneous and bold in his interpretation of the sonatas
> as anyone else". Boiled down to this less exuberant evaluation, may this not be true?

"Prepared to be spontaneous"! What a gem.

> The only way, really, to discover this is to listen. Even the short extracts available on
> online record shops can help here - I use Presto Music with a bit of help from Hyperion.

No need for help from Presto. Brendull's Haydn musings can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lGF3AaJUW69YdWRnNuGa8Ye-Yu4Dm16MY

Compare any of them with Derzhavina or Timofeyeva. Summarize your
impressions and send us a postcard.

dk

[Notsure01]

On 12/7/22 12:22 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:08:04 PM UTC+11, Notsure01 wrote:
>> On 12/6/22 7:58 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>
>>> Do you ever read record reviews? Or do you
>>> expect this ng to spoon feed your lack of
>>> initiative and intellectual curiosity?
>>>
>>> Enjoy!
>>>
>>> dk

>> Which reviews? Like this one from Gramophone:
>>

>> "Brendel's steady illumination of Haydn is a delight...

>
> Alfred Brendel is generally disliked in this group and has been for many years. We used to get feeble jokes about BrenDULL - and, less frequently, the KoDULLy Quartet on Naxos - which surprised me because in Australia he was generally admired, and in my opinion, rightly so.
>
> The "Gramophone" reviewer seems to be telling us several times with slight variations in vocabulary, that while Brendel's Haydn is evidently based on a close understanding of the scores, this is not reflected in a pu pedantic approach to the music, but one in which the pianist is prepared to be as spontaneous and bold in his interpretation of the sonatas as anyone else". Boiled down to this less exuberant evaluation, may this not be true? The only way, really, to discover this is to listen.

> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

I just took Dan's advice and listened to both Brendel and Derzhavina do
the first movement of one of the sonatas I know already, Hoboken No. 52.
While I do enjoy much of Brendel's other work, this performance was
truly dreadful!

I don't have the best vocabulary to explain why, but Brendel had a
delicate touch and just rattled it off without much expression, while
Derzhavina had a more muscular approach and performed much more freely.
It made me think of the way the Mozart sonatas were once described -
Dresden China (not sure exactly what this means since we often use paper
plates in my home).

I plan to do more comparative listening, but there is no contest so far...

[Herman]

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 8:18:05 AM UTC+1, Notsure01 wrote:
>
> >
> Derzhavina had a more muscular approach

And why do you think Haydn's keyboard sonatas call for a 'muscular approach'?

[Jonathan Ben Schragadove]

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 9:22:55 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:

Heard only 1 disc of the The Kodály Quartet's Haydn on Naxos a long time ago...quite dull. Not crazy about Schiff's Hadyn sonatas on Teldec either...

[Dan Koren]

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 12:13:22 PM UTC-8, Notsure01 wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xj6G7sCr8rk&t=190s

dk

[Mandryka]

I had a listen to Richter playing sonata 20 last night, on a CD on Stradivarius called “à notre dame de la fidélité” - strange melancholy which I find really fascinating.

Re 52, it’s a while since I’ve heard it and I don’t know if I’ve ever heard Dershevina or Brendel. I have vague memories of a good early one from Horowitz on a Naxos CD with the Liszt sonata, and a very nice one from Ludger Rémy.

[Notsure01]

While one could say, as I stated in that Rattle thread, that there can
be different valid approaches to interpretation, for me Brendel's light
touch and lightly inflected phrasing makes the music sound almost
trivial - and a lot less interesting compared to Derzhavina. "Muscular"
might be the wrong word to use - what I mean is that she emphasizes
certain phrases while Brendel seldom does anything similar.

And this is based just on critical listening to only one movement of a
single sonata, so I'm not ready or capable to pontificate on Haydn
sonata interpretation!

[Andrew Clarke]

What do you mean by "dull"?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
who has all the Naxos set. I have all but one or two of the Naxos Haydn symphonies as well.

[Dan Koren]

I am loading the HIMARS! ;-)

dk

[Andrew Clarke]

'Dull' is an old rmcr expression meaning "I don't like it'.

But why does it have to be an 'either/or', 'black/white' 'totally good / utterly despicable' game? As I'm concerned, the Brendel / Derzhavina approaches - based on the snippets I've heard - are both valid, although overall I think I might prefer Brendel.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Herman]

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 1:04:43 PM UTC+1, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> But why does it have to be an 'either/or', 'black/white' 'totally good / utterly despicable' game? As I'm concerned, the Brendel / Derzhavina approaches - based on the snippets I've heard - are both valid, although overall I think I might prefer Brendel.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

I can't help but think the Haydn sonatas are ultimately no music to listen to, but music one should perform. My GF plays a couple, and I'm happy to say not at Derzhavina's breakneck speeds.

The big Eflat major is clearly a piece to be performed for an audience, and unlike most people, I don't see it as the crown on Haydn's keyboard works. Rather the reverse. I like Haydn better as Carl Philip Emm's successor than as LvB's precursor.

[Mandryka]

What I think is as follows.

If you listen to the sort of piano which Haydn was writing for, the timbres are less pure than a modern piano. And those colours can make some of the music more enjoyable for me to hear. On a modern piano , especially one tuned equally, it’s hard - I either need a pianist who can produce colours or can compensate for the a lack of interesting timbre with other things.

Here’s an example of where I enjoy the effect of the overtones of a HIP piano in Haydn sonatas

https://open.spotify.com/album/4xesq1jVUbSzZXamvrDYio

[mINE109]

On 12/7/22 6:58 AM, Mandryka wrote:
> What I think is as follows.
>

> If you listen to the sort of piano Haydn was writing for, the timbres
> less pure than a modern piano. And I think those colours can make

> some of the music more enjoyable for me to hear. On a modern piano ,
> especially one tuned equally, it’s hard - I either need a pianist who
> can produce colours or can compensate for the a lack of interesting
> timbre with other things.
>
> Here’s an example of where I enjoy the effect of the overtones of a
> HIP piano in Haydn sonatas
>
> https://open.spotify.com/album/4xesq1jVUbSzZXamvrDYio

To add to the question of instruments, Haydn's career was long enough to
show style changes based on the pianos he wrote for: early tabletop
pianos, middle Viennese "Mozart pianos," and late English pianos like
those heard at this link.

Obviously a simplification, but helpful in sorting and showing an
advantage of Beghin's varied instrument approach. I think the "London"
sonatas translate well to the modern grand. I also enjoy Haydn on the
harpsichord by Robert Hill.

[Graham]

Here's Bavouzet talking and illustrating his approach to the E minor sonata:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVw0q7GyuNY

[Mandryka]

I don’t agree that the London sonatas translate well to modern concert grand pianos.

[mINE109]

On 12/7/22 9:46 AM, Graham wrote:

> Here's Bavouzet talking and illustrating his approach to the E minor
> sonata:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVw0q7GyuNY

Thanks! I like the emphasis on tricks and pauses. I think the opening
theme articulation obscures the time signature, a trick Haydn does with
repeated notes in other pieces.

[mINE109]

More so the big E-flat for me, but I understand your distinction. The D
major is an odd duck on the Steinway.

I didn't know of Ludger Remy, so thanks for mentioning him.

[Dan Koren]

Haydn should only be played on
Yamahas or Bösendorfers. Or on
Shigeru Kawai if one has Pletnev's
fingers. Stoneways are horrible.

dk

[Dan Koren]

> I'm enjoying both of these! Thank you, Dan!

There's also Ilse von Alpenheim:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpxnnRs3_dA&list=OLAK5uy_nKy6OONCKXRVJjHlQuq5z_M2eRewc9_C0

Not my cup of tea.

dk

[Mandryka]

You could be right.

I heard Steven Osborne play Debussy etudes on Monday, on an enormous monster Steinway in The Wigmore Hall. I thought it was a flop, the instrument just isn't right for that sort of music.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001fntx
https://wigmore-hall.org.uk/live-streams/steven-osborne-debussy

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 10:02:38 AM UTC-8, Mandryka wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 5:20:50 PM UTC, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Haydn should only be played on
> > Yamahas or Bösendorfers. Or on
> > Shigeru Kawai if one has Pletnev's
> > fingers. Stoneways are horrible.
>

> You could be right.
>
> I heard Steven Osborne play Debussy
> etudes on Monday, on an enormous
> monster Steinway in The Wigmore
> Hall. I thought it was a flop, the
> instrument just isn't right for
> that sort of music.
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001fntx
> https://wigmore-hall.org.uk/live-streams/steven-osborne-debussy

Maybe the problem was Osborne
at least as much as was the piano?

BTW I don't think Bösendorfers or
Yamahas are the best instruments
for Debussy. Blüthner and Fazioli
have the best sound for Debussy.

dk

[Mandryka]

Hiroaki Takenouchi -- quite distinctive. Light, but intense and at the same time (contradiction possibly, but this is art, not logic.) Steinway. I like the style, unusual selection, not sure about the piano. I know him through a recording of a piano piece by James Dillon.

https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/11/000059911.pdf

[HT]

Op woensdag 7 december 2022 om 20:02:41 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:

> Maybe the problem was Osborne
> at least as much as was the piano?

You are right. It obviously wasn't Osborne's finest day at the Wigmore. It sounded more like a try-out.

Henk

[Notsure01]

Thanks, everyone! This thread may have started with someone needing to
be spoonfed, but it has now grown up into an uncommonly interesting
discussion.

This is RMCR at its finest - advice for newbies like me, as well as the
exchanging of ideas by more experienced pros (I've been oblivious all
these years of the impact of the brand of piano. I've always thought
that - to continue the "Dresden China" reference - the food could be as
appetizing when served on my paper plates).

What I found to be fascinating is something Graham kindly shared - the
lecture on Youtube
with Bavouzet dicussing the interpretation of the E minor sonata:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVw0q7GyuNY

To get back to Brendel, the sort of interpretive touches that Bavouzet
discusses seem to be largely missing from Brendel's performance - or
maybe just too subtle for me to perceive! And Derzhavina's performances
certainly have interpretation in abundance...

I also really appreciate what Andrew Clarke put so aptly:

"'Dull' is an old rmcr expression meaning "I don't like it'.

But why does it have to be an 'either/or', 'black/white' 'totally good /
utterly despicable' game? As I'm concerned, the Brendel / Derzhavina
approaches - based on the snippets I've heard - are both valid, although
overall I think I might prefer Brendel."

There is certainly room for a variety of approaches and - as you all can
tell - I'm not a subtle person!

[Mandryka]

Does Sokolov play Haydn with a Steinway? I haven’t heard the DG release but I’ve got an all Haydn concert recording which I think is pretty successful, Bisdorf 2002.

[Herman]

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 10:41:24 PM UTC+1, Notsure01 wrote:
>
>
> To get back to Brendel, the sort of interpretive touches that Bavouzet
> discusses seem to be largely missing from Brendel's performance - or
> maybe just too subtle for me to perceive!

you hear Bavouzet's 'interpretive touches' because he's explaining them in WORDS.

[Herman]

So basically you're hearing the words. Not the music.

[raymond....@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 8 December 2022 at 08:41:24 UTC+11, Notsure01 wrote:
> Thanks, everyone! This thread may have started with someone needing to
> be spoonfed, but it has now grown up into an uncommonly interesting
> discussion.
>
> This is RMCR at its finest - advice for newbies like me, as well as the
> exchanging of ideas by more experienced pros (I've been oblivious all
> these years of the impact of the brand of piano. I've always thought
> that - to continue the "Dresden China" reference - the food could be as
> appetizing when served on my paper plates).
>
> What I found to be fascinating is something Graham kindly shared - the
> lecture on Youtube
> with Bavouzet dicussing the interpretation of the E minor sonata:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVw0q7GyuNY
>
> To get back to Brendel, the sort of interpretive touches that Bavouzet
> discusses seem to be largely missing from Brendel's performance - or
> maybe just too subtle for me to perceive! And Derzhavina's performances
> certainly have interpretation in abundance...
>
> I also really appreciate what Andrew Clarke put so aptly:
> "'Dull' is an old rmcr expression meaning "I don't like it'.

Dull means "boring" and always has in my book. I think Herman got it right when he said these sonatas should not be listened to, en masse, or a whole pile of them. As great as Haydn was, obviously, (he churned out huge quantities of music) I fail to see why 21st century ears don't have more appropriate music to enjoy. For piano music, Ravel, Debussy or Glass. For Glass, Namekawa is quite good. So is Glass also.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Mandryka]

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 9:41:24 PM UTC, Notsure01 wrote:
>
> There is certainly room for a variety of approaches and - as you all can
> tell - I'm not a subtle person!

Have a listen to Dershavina and Brendel in first minute of the E minor sonata 53, Hob 34. Can you hear Brendel's rubato? How does Dershavina embellish the music - does she use rubato and/or other techniques? What do you think of the way Dershavina uses dynamic variation? Compare with Brendel's relatively restrained dynamics.

[Notsure01]

I did sample Brendel, Dershavina, and Hamelin - and I have a Jando disk
somewhere (probably in my to-be-listened-to pile along with a hundred
others) but I'm afraid to reignite the age-old debate: should the music
"speak for itself" or does it need an artist to nudge things along? Anne
Sofie van Otter or Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau?

For folks that are new to a work, they may need to have things blatantly
spelled out (spoonfed) while those more familiar may appreciate
different approaches and perceive subtle details.

For my taste, I prefer a free interpretative approach - sadly subtlety
is lost on me...

And speaking of Messiaen, there is his quote about his Quatuor: "Do not
be afraid to exaggerate the dynamics, the accelerandos, the ritardandos,
everything that renders an interpretation lively and sensitive".

I just sampled Brendel in hob. 34, and to my (20th century) ears his
phrasing seems insufficiently characterized.

I've always felt that the current approach of strict adherence to the
score has to be an anomaly. The way music was performed freely on those
hundred year old recordings is more like what the composer would expect...

But I may now be motivating an insult, from which this thread has
previously been free!

And I do realize, as the expression goes - to continue the culinary
references - "One man's asparagus is another man's lima beans".

[Peter]

I just remembered Koroliov. His two CDs of Haydn sonatas are great -- lucid, communicative in the slow movements (without trying to milk), playful when called for. No one else has mentioned him up to now.

[Owen Hartnett]

Thanks for posting. I'm a big fan on Bavouzet's.

-Owen

[Jonathan Ben Schragadove]

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 3:47:50 PM UTC-8, Peter wrote:
> I just remembered Koroliov. His two CDs of Haydn sonatas are great -- lucid, communicative in the slow movements (without trying to milk), playful when called for. No one else has mentioned him up to now.

Agreed - the Koroliov is excellent. (I love his Bach also). Something different (for those not allergic to fortepiano): the Staier recordings on DHM.

[Herman]

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 12:33:00 AM UTC+1, Notsure01 wrote:
> On 12/7/22 5:33 PM, Mandryka wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 9:41:24 PM UTC, Notsure01 wrote:
> >>
> >> There is certainly room for a variety of approaches and - as you all can
> >> tell - I'm not a subtle person!
> >
> > Have a listen to Dershavina and Brendel in first minute of the E minor sonata 53, Hob 34. Can you hear Brendel's rubato? How does Dershavina embellish the music - does she use rubato and/or other techniques? What do you think of the way Dershavina uses dynamic variation? Compare with Brendel's relatively restrained dynamics.
> I did sample Brendel, Dershavina, and Hamelin - and I have a Jando disk
> somewhere (probably in my to-be-listened-to pile along with a hundred
> others) but I'm afraid to reignite the age-old debate: should the music
> "speak for itself" or does it need an artist to nudge things along? Anne
> Sofie van Otter or Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau?
>
> For folks that are new to a work, they may need to have things blatantly
> spelled out (spoonfed) while those more familiar may appreciate
> different approaches and perceive subtle details.
>
> For my taste, I prefer a free interpretative approach - sadly subtlety
> is lost on me...
>
> And speaking of Messiaen, there is his quote about his Quatuor: "Do not
> be afraid to exaggerate the dynamics, the accelerandos, the ritardandos,
> everything that renders an interpretation lively and sensitive".
>
> I just sampled Brendel in hob. 34, and to my (20th century) ears his
> phrasing seems insufficiently characterized.
>
> I've always felt that the current approach of strict adherence to the
> score has to be an anomaly. The way music was performed freely on those
> hundred year old recordings is more like what the composer would expect...
>

So... you think that the way a generation of performers played in 1920 is how they sounded all the way back to 1600 or some such date?
And does that also mean they did not play whatever they did not record back in 1920?

[Notsure01]

On 12/7/22 9:13 PM, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 12:33:00 AM UTC+1, Notsure01 wrote:

>> There is certainly room for a variety of approaches and - as you all can
>> tell - I'm not a subtle person!
>>

>> For my taste, I prefer a free interpretative approach - sadly subtlety
>> is lost on me...
>>
>> And speaking of Messiaen, there is his quote about his Quatuor: "Do not
>> be afraid to exaggerate the dynamics, the accelerandos, the ritardandos,
>> everything that renders an interpretation lively and sensitive".
>>
>> I just sampled Brendel in hob. 34, and to my (20th century) ears his
>> phrasing seems insufficiently characterized.
>>
>> I've always felt that the current approach of strict adherence to the
>> score has to be an anomaly. The way music was performed freely on those
>> hundred year old recordings is more like what the composer would expect...
>>
> So... you think that the way a generation of performers played in 1920 is how they sounded all the way back to 1600 or some such date?
> And does that also mean they did not play whatever they did not record back in 1920?

I certainly don't have a clue as to how music sounded in 1600 - and
believe the musicologists are also not sure. My point is that musicians
such as pop singers tend to want to use a composition as a starting
point, and then add their individual touches - just consider any cover
version of a pop song.

I've listened to numerous "Golden Age" performers and singers, and in
general these musicians also tend to take more interpretive liberties
compared to today's classical artists. As to how this done before
recordings, I have no idea...

I imagine Baroque composers, for example, would expect ornamentation to
be used. But clearly you would know more about these types of questions
than I do! One of the many benefits of RMCR is it is a place that could
help people to clarify unwarranted beliefs. I would be grateful for any
comments about whether interpretive freedom has decreased and whether or
not it is a good thing. Or I wouldn't mind if folks wanted to just
ignore my foolishness!

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, December 7, 2022 at 4:33:42 PM UTC-8, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
>
> Something different (for those not allergic to
> fortepiano): the Staier recordings on DHM.

Instant anaphylactic shock! ;-)

dk

[Mandryka]

Aapo Häkkinen using a clavichord for a Haydn sonata.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOEXQ1IpiKY

[mINE109]

On 12/7/22 3:41 PM, Notsure01 wrote:
> To get back to Brendel, the sort of interpretive touches that Bavouzet
> discusses seem to be largely missing from Brendel's performance - or
> maybe just too subtle for me to perceive!

The 11 Piano Sonatas collection is a good selection of repertoire.

I thought in No 34/1 Brendel well distinguishes musical form with tone
and articulation. He also got the 'trick' of the ambiguous meter.
There is plenty to hear in phrasing and tone color but one man's steady
tempo is another's lack of rubato. I enjoyed revisiting these.

I recommended Bavouzet as a representative of current taste as I see it;
Brendel is a similar example for the 70s/80s. All IMHO, of course.

[Mandryka]

Beghin talks as though the big change in taste since the 70s is to do with the idea that the structure of a movement is like the structure of Quintilian’s rhetoric. I haven't heard Bavouzet by the way.

[Lawrence Kart]

Ekaterina Derzhavina. Gilbert Kalish on Nonesuch is very good too.

[Mandryka]

On Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 6:00:57 AM UTC, Mandryka wrote:
> Aapo Häkkinen using a clavichord for a Haydn sonata.
>
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rOEXQ1IpiKY

I must say, I think this is really excellent. I know Hakkinen through his Byrd mainly - he has a Haydn CD in fact, I shall have to try it.

[gggg gggg]

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 12:13:22 PM UTC-8, Notsure01 wrote:
> While I really enjoy Haydn symphonies, quartets, trios and masses, I'm
> only familiar with a few of his piano sonatas. I'm wondering if Dan,
> Mandryka, or another kind soul could point me to some of the more
> interesting works and stronger performances?
>
> As always, I'm very grateful for all your help!

(Recent review):

https://www.classical-music.com/reviews/instrumental/haydn-piano-sonatas-vol-1-peter-donohoe/

[AB]

On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-5, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 6, 2022 at 12:13:22 PM UTC-8, Notsure01 wrote:
> > While I really enjoy Haydn symphonies, quartets, trios and masses, I'm
> > only familiar with a few of his piano sonatas. I'm wondering if Dan,
> > Mandryka, or another kind soul could point me to some of the more
> > interesting works and stronger performances?
> >
> > As always, I'm very grateful for all your help!

> Ekaterina Derzhavina leaves everybody else
> in the proverbial dust:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mv16hCTAGS8VWaXS2-OTn8XkyOM1ya3Fw
>
> Next best choice is Lubov Timofeyeva:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCFP79P7Gg
>
> Do you ever read record reviews? Or do you
> expect this ng to spoon feed your lack of
> initiative and intellectual curiosity?
>
> Enjoy!
>

> dk

Yes,Ms D is very impressive. Perfect piano, beautiful playing.

AB

[mINE109]

I found some reviews of Beghin's writings. Interesting stuff. The idea
of Haydn guiding the performer by way of the score in a rhetorical sense
isn't too different from Bavouzet the teacher considering the effects of
pauses and tricks in the text.

I'm happy to reconsider Hob.XVI:42 as "the single most remarkable
example of classical oratory among Haydn's works..."

I didn't know there was correspondence from Haydn about No 49. I would
have found that useful back in college days.

[Mandryka]

If you're in the mood try Yu Kasuge's 42 on the Carnegie Hall disc. Just discovered it and it made me prick up my ears.

https://open.spotify.com/artist/5tcUjfUAZwX2NMjWU0fqON/discography/album

[Tatonik]

I recall an interview with Stephen Kovacevich in which he said Haydn
sonatas reminded him of jokes in Latin. He meant this pejoratively, but
if one is well-versed in Latin, it might not be a bad thing. It does,
however, imply a limited audience.

[Notsure01]

On 12/7/22 9:13 PM, Herman wrote:

I've been thinking about why I'm so disappointed with Brendel's Haydn
when so many of the piano experts here appreciate him - and then it
occurred to me what to do: listen to my imprint version!

In many similar cases, when a common tempo of a symphony seems much too
fast - or too slow - it turns out an imprint performance by Klemperer -
or Paray - had caused "brain burn-in".

For Haydn Sonata Hob. XVI:52, I acquired a 1932 performance by Horowitz
many years ago, and I just can't shake the feeling that his
interpretation is the way the work should be performed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS5ttAiBNxM

I haven't looked at the score, but wouldn't be surprised if, as I put it
in my post above, Horowitz didn't lack "strict adherence to the score".
He certainly varied the tempo, adjusted his touch, contrasted the
dynamics - played the score freely.

In my listening to early piano recordings, from my perspective
performers - such as Ignaz
Friedman - interpreted the scores freely and todays musicologically
correct and note-perfect performances are an anomaly. A valid question
was raised as to how I would know this - I'm not a pianist or even a
musician - and would be happy to see a discussion of this issue.

As for Brendel, I listened again - carefully this time - to the E-Flat
sonata and do observe that interpretive points are being made - subtly.
Which approach is preferable is certainly a matter of taste, and now I
agree there is a place for both.

Thanks again to everyone for their feedback! And it would be great to
get some comments on the Horowitz performance...

[Mandryka]

It’s not a question of adherence to the score, it’s a question of finding good embellishments to the score. Think of it like interior design: sometimes you can cram the room with so many ornaments, each lovely, but the overall effect is fussy, and hides the beautiful architecture; sometimes you can furnish the room so minimally that it appears sparse and soulless. Sometimes you can decorate the room in a way which isn’t at all sympathetic to the period of the house, and it feels wrong, despite the quality of the materials and the workmanship. The problem is to find a juste milieu.

Re Horowitz, there’s a very good early Haydn sonata on a Naxos CD with the Liszt sonata - well worth finding, good transfer too.

[MELMOTH]

Notsure01 a formulé la demande :

> While I really enjoy Haydn symphonies, quartets, trios and masses, I'm only
> familiar with a few of his piano sonatas. I'm wondering if Dan, Mandryka, or
> another kind soul could point me to some of the more interesting works and
> stronger performances?
>
> As always, I'm very grateful for all your help!

I like very much the complete works on pianoforte published by
Brilliant, and the complete works of Christine Schorsheim
(Capriccio)...

[JohnGavin]

The Horowitz 1932 recording is fantastic IMO. Certainly part of the reason for it’s success is that he exploits the wide range of sonorities possible on a modern piano through touch, voicing, use of pedal and non-pedal for dry effects. It’s also wonderfully animated and energetic. You’ve got to wonder if Haydn could have heard it would he have been delighted? I think so, but of course, that’s the stuff of science fiction.

Here’s another performance of a Sonata by Hayden’s contemporary, Clementi, that I find equally compelling and magical. It’s Michelangeli.

https://youtu.be/_qB9_o0t_tY

[Jonathan Ben Schragadove]

I've always loved that early Horowitz Haydn. Had an old Seraphim LP coupled with the 1930 Rach 3 (LSO, Coates).

[Notsure01]

On 12/10/22 11:02 PM, Jonathan Ben Schragadove wrote:
>
> I've always loved that early Horowitz Haydn. Had an old Seraphim LP coupled with the 1930 Rach 3 (LSO, Coates).

I'm glad that you and a few other people agree with me! And we are
joined in our indisputable opinion about that Haydn sonata performance
by a critic: "Horowitz is as appreciative of his rococo grace as he is
of his extrovert fantasy, of his humour and of his sheer bigness. He
makes sure we know this music is important, and it remains one of the
few truly great performances of a Haydn sonata on disc".

We know we can trust this, since the critic sometimes posts right here
on rmcr - Christopher Howell!

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/jun03/Horowitz1932Naxos.htm

I now admit I was too hasty in labeling Brendel's version as
uninflected, but there is clearly a big difference with their approaches.

In the end a preference is a matter of taste, and by comparing these it
has made this comment clearer:

"Over the years I found that I prefer pianists who play with a wide palette
of touch, texture and color, and who sound as if they are improvising the
work on the spot, rather than as if they learned it, studied it,
practiced it,
and polished it". (Dan Koren)