You Came A Long Way To St Louis

[Andrew Clarke]

In the recent lists of Great Living Conductors who Don't Do HIP there appears to be no mention of Stephane Deneve. This surprises me. He conducts an American orchestra, and he's recorded for Naxos, to great critical acclaim. And he must be so much better than Rattle. What's the problem? If it's his nationality, he's only *just* French - if he'd been born a few km further north, he'd have been a Belgian.

Or are people confusing him with Catharine?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[JohnGavin]

Would you be referring to this DG recording artist?

https://youtu.be/ozwCdFmE8WM

[Andrew Clarke]

Well that flummoxed me! 'Belle de Jour' and 'Un Flic' and 'Le Dernier Metro' I know very well. I only knew about the early three Chansons de Bilitis that Debussy wrote to be sung, not the the later Musique de Scene pour les Chansons, which do not require Mme Deneuve to sing but to recite, which I bet she does perfectly.

She Came A Long Way From St Louys?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Chris J.]

On 24 Mar 2022 Andrew Clarke wrote:

> In the recent lists of Great Living Conductors who Don't Do HIP there
> appears to be no mention of Stephane Deneve. This surprises me. He
> conducts an American orchestra, and he's recorded for Naxos, to great
> critical acclaim. And he must be so much better than Rattle. What's the
> problem?

Don't know. He even has the right haircut. Well, almost.

https://assets.classicfm.com/2015/03/stphane-denve-1421844372-view-0.jpg

Perhaps he should dye it silver-grey.;-)

Chris

[Frank Berger]

Perhaps in this post-Covid era we will see some recordings from SLSO and Deneve.

Does he know how to pronounce St. Louis in the U.S.?

His recorded repertoire is overwhelmingly French, is it not? Poulenc, Roussel, Debussy, Honegger (I know, he was Swiss), Ravel, Thomas, Saint-Saens, Franck. Soem Prokofiev is the only exception I see. I assume his concert repertoire is more varied.

[Andrew Clarke]

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 2:01:12 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 3/24/2022 8:22 AM, Chris J. wrote:
> > On 24 Mar 2022 Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >
> >> In the recent lists of Great Living Conductors who Don't Do HIP there
> >> appears to be no mention of Stephane Deneve. This surprises me. He
> >> conducts an American orchestra, and he's recorded for Naxos, to great
> >> critical acclaim. And he must be so much better than Rattle. What's the
> >> problem?
> >
> > Don't know. He even has the right haircut. Well, almost.
> >
> > https://assets.classicfm.com/2015/03/stphane-denve-1421844372-view-0.jpg
> >
> > Perhaps he should dye it silver-grey.;-)
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> Perhaps in this post-Covid era we will see some recordings from SLSO and Deneve.
>
> Does he know how to pronounce St. Louis in the U.S.?

He could take lessons in pronunciation from

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzcloaiOvHs>

and

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqezXDgObWE>

>
> His recorded repertoire is overwhelmingly French, is it not? Poulenc, Roussel, Debussy, Honegger (I know, he was Swiss), Ravel, Thomas, Saint-Saens, Franck. Soem Prokofiev is the only exception I see. I assume his concert repertoire is more varied.

He hates to see
That Mendelssohn go down ....

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 11:22:44 PM UTC+11, Chris J. wrote:

> Don't know. He even has the right haircut. Well, almost.
>
> https://assets.classicfm.com/2015/03/stphane-denve-1421844372-view-0.jpg
>
> Perhaps he should dye it silver-grey.;-)
>

I don't think the Dude would like that. I really don't. Even worse, he might have played for Norrington. He does come from the Chalumeau Me State.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[number_six]

> > > On 24 Mar 2022 Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > >
> He could take lessons in pronunciation from
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzcloaiOvHs>
>
> and
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqezXDgObWE>
> >

And don't forget Allan Sherman --
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep9fG_ji7T8

[Andrew Clarke]

That is brilliant - it's up there with 'Shake Hands With Your Uncle Max Me Boy' and 'Bye bye Bloomberg'. I hope the hosts of the bar mitzvah got plenty of royalties for all that canned laughter. For more on Mad King Louis see

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdEF-Fcm9CM>

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Oscar]

On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 3:37:54 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>
> In the recent lists of Great Living Conductors who Don't Do HIP there appears to be no mention of Stephane Deneve.
> This surprises me. He conducts an American orchestra, and he's recorded for Naxos, to great critical acclaim. And
> he must be so much better than Rattle. What's the problem? If it's his nationality, he's only *just* French - if he'd been
> born a few km further north, he'd have been a Belgian.

Munch was born in Alsace, and was a native German speaker. As for Dénève, he is the man! The Midwest is fortunate to have him. Can't wait to see him in person at Powell Hall.

[Andrew Clarke]

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 2:57:59 PM UTC+11, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> I hope the hosts of the bar mitzvah got plenty of royalties for all that canned laughter.

I now know that all Alan Sherman's successful albums were recorded before a live audience, so no canned laughter was required. My apologies to the ghost of Mr Sherman wherever it may be.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 2:01:12 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:

I had a look at Presto Classical and so far as I can see, all his recordings have been made with European orchestras.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Néstor Castiglione]

No surprise. Many American orchestras nowadays prefer to be seen, not heard.

[Al Eisner]

From the SLSO website, their last recordings were from 2019, with their
previous music director, David Robertson. Aren't recording contracts
for most orchestras tie more to the conductor than to orchestra?

The few upcoming concerts from Deneve this spring seem varied (one nicely
couples "La Mer" with RVW's "Sea Symphony" plus a new work), and a digital
concert series is not particularly French (more Russian, if anything).
According to the site, he puts an emphasis on contemporary music - was
that not a trait shared by Robertson and, way back, Slatkin.

If your initial post, Andrew, was a refeence to Hurwitz's two lists, I
don't get the comparison you ade to Rattle. It seems highly unlikely
that Dave would put Rattle on any "best" list.
--
Al Eisner

[Andrew Clarke]

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 10:39:22 AM UTC+11, Al Eisner wrote:

> If your initial post, Andrew, was a refeence to Hurwitz's two lists, I
> don't get the comparison you ade to Rattle. It seems highly unlikely
> that Dave would put Rattle on any "best" list.
> --
> Al Eisner

"And he must be so much better than Rattle" is what I wrote. I'm implying, with my tongue firmly in my cheek, that M. Deneve would have to be regarded as much, much
better than Sir Simon to make it to any of Dave's Top Tens.

I am in the process of constructing a digital Hurwitz Memorial Library, full of Rattle, Eliot Gardiner, Roth et al. I admit to not owning any Norrington - yet.

Not so long ago the record shops - remember those? - were full of recordings by major labels of American orchestras from outside the Top Five. Sadly, those days are gone, and I'm not sure that they are ever coming back, unless they make, and market, their own. Canadian HIP band Tafelmusik used to do this, but these recordings are few in number and are now buried under the "Shop" link on the footer of their website. They used to do downloads too, and I purchased quite a few of them.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Dan Koren]

On Saturday, March 26, 2022 at 6:05:25 AM UTC-7, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I am in the process of constructing a
> digital Hurwitz Memorial Library, full
> of Rattle, Eliot Gardiner, Roth et al. I
> admit to not owning any Norrington
> - yet.

Just keep it full of rattle.
Everything else is noise. ;-)

dk

[Andrew Clarke]

I'm afraid I'm already beyond redemption, as I possess not only the Rattle Brahms cycle withe Berlin Phil but the Eliot Gardiner one with the ORR as well. I can only plead that I also have the Marin Marais Brahms cycle on Naxos, although the name of the orchestra does, unfortunately, include the L word. Oh yes, and there's the Mackerras recording of Brahms 3rd which Dave likes, which is strange because the SCO uses gut strings and 19th century brass, including Vienna horns.

My next purchase for the HML will be Sir Simon's recordings of the Sibelius symphonies, which will put me as far beyond the pale as it is possible to get.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[number_six]

On Sunday, March 27, 2022 at 3:52:16 AM UTC-7, andrewc wrote:
My next purchase for the HML will be Sir Simon's recordings of the Sibelius symphonies, which will put me as far beyond the pale as it is possible to get.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

Rattle was recently said to have applied for German citizenship.

Assuming he goes dual (that is, does not renounce UK), does he retain his knighthood?

[Lawrence Kart]

Marin Alsop's Brahms cycle?

[Andrew Clarke]

I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce the title or not style himself "Sir".

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

Madge Alsop. I apologise to Ms Marais for the confusion.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

It turns out that Ritter von Rattel is already a German citizen and a recipient of Germany's highest award, the Order of Merit. This step was to enable him to more freely move about the EU without the paperwork required for post-Brexit Britons. He also seems to believe that Brexit supporters are innately insular and anti-European, a very dubious assumption. I think that if the EU had stuck to what it originally was, namely a free trade zone, the UK would still be a member.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
or is it Ratter von Rittel?

[Frank Berger]

Wait. Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling myself Sir Frank?

[mINE109]

On 3/29/22 8:52 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 3/28/2022 9:58 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:

>> I would think so, unless Germany, like the USA, does not allow its
>> citizens to use titles bestowed by other countries. Cf Bob Hope, Georg
>> Solti and other foreign nationals who were given honorary knighthoods
>> in the past. Solti later became a British citizen and was able to
>> style himself Sir Georg. Sir Simon may of course choose to renounce
>> the title or not style himself "Sir".

> Wait.  Is there really a law in the U.S. preventing me from calling
> myself Sir Frank?

I hope this doesn't affect Sir Mix-A-Lot or the late Sir Douglas of
Quintet fame.

[number_six]

Frank and Sir Mix A-Lot are not affected. However, under the foreign emoluments clause --
Article I

Section 9
Clause 8

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

[Andrew Clarke]

Well you could join up with Count Basie, Duke Ellington and King Oliver, I suppose. But yes, there is, as I understand it, a law in the United States preventing foreign titles being used by American citizens.

You wouldn't want to receive an honour from Queen Elizabeth anyway, as according to your version of British politics and society, the woman makes Heinrich Himmler look like St Francis of Assisi. And Dave the Dude wouldn't call you Sir Frank anyway - we get Adrian Boult, Alexander Gibson, John Eliot Gardner, etc., etc.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[number_six]

On Monday, March 28, 2022 at 9:32:30 PM UTC-7, andrewc wrote:
> It turns out that Ritter von Rattel is already a German citizen and a recipient of Germany's highest award, the Order of Merit.

So he has already gone to the Rathaus to be sworn at, er, sworn in...

[Andrew Clarke]

That clarifies matters. The British sovereign can award honorary knighthoods - or their female equivalent - to people who aren't British citizens, but they can't style themselves as such, unless, like Solti, they subsequently become British citizens. On the other side of the Pond, you cannot accept any kind of title of honour from a foreign power if you hold an Office of Profit or Trust.: does this also apply to the individual States as well as the Federal Government? Is 'Kingfish' a title of honour?

Given that Sir Simon Rattle greatly improved the salaries of the Berlin Philharmonic, gave that orchestra greater autonomy, created outreach programmes (like the Rite of Spring project), created a memorable series of late (k)night concerts featuring the music of people like Berio and Dallapiccola, and was a driving force behind the creation of the Digital Concert hall, his knighthood is well merited.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[number_six]

Article I of the US Constitution relates to the powers of Congress and the clause quoted should not apply to officials of the individual states. But all or most states likely have anti-corruption statutes whose underlying intent would be similar to the federal prohibition on foreign emoluments. Even Louisiana, to tie in with the topic header and the Kingfish query.

[Frank Berger]

That's totally different. The hope of being granted a title is what prevents me from running for office.

[Frank Berger]

In other words, if a U.S. citizen who does not hold an office of profit or trust (whatever an office of profit is) is awarded an honorary knighthood by Great Britain he can't use the title "sir" in GB, but certainly can in the U.S. I suppose that might annoy the Brits who could revoke the honorary title.

[Frank Berger]

That's Sir Kingfish to you.

[Owen]

Damn! And I paid ten bucks to purchase a square foot of land in
Scotland, so now I have to relinquish my Lordship?

-Lord Owen

P.S. What about the Lord Almighty? Does he have to give that up too?

-O

[Andrew Clarke]

I thought it was King Fish so a knighthood would be superfluous. Anyway, he's still revered in the Louisiana boondocks, where corruption on a vast scale is regarded as perfectly acceptable, if not laudable, even if a fellow US senator did accuse him of suffering from 'halitosis of the intellect'.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

Owning a square foot of land in Scotland, even in the ancestral lands of the Clan McQuoren, may make you a laird but not a lord. You have to be a baron, viscount, earl or marquess to style yourself Lord Anything and unless you're a British citizen, you ain't going to get a peerage.

Meanwhile, Rattle has also been awarded the Order of Merit, which is generally regarded as more valuable than a knighthood as recipients of the latter are recommended to the sovereign by the Prime Minister of the day, and so are likely to be awarded for political reasons.

When push comes to shove, if I ever get to meet the President of the United States, which is unlikely, I shall address him as Mr President and not Sleepy Joe, Old Fishface or any other soubriquet, derogatory or otherwise, because that is the courteous thing to do. If I ever meet Sir John Eliot Gardiner - even less likely - I shall address him as Sir John, because that is the courteous thing to do also. Mind you, Sir Charles Groves, an excellent conductor long forgotten, was addressed by members of his orchestras as 'Charlie' both before and after his knighthood, but that, you see, was his decision.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Graham]

Menuhin, a long-term UK resident, was given an honorary knighthood but
couldn't use the title until he took out citizenship. He was later ennobled.

[Frank Berger]

In the mid 50's I, along with thousands of others, acquired, from a Quaker Oats cereal box, a deed showing ownership of 1 square inch of land in Alaska. A little research shows the deed said the owners were obligated to pay Alaskan property taxes, and that, failing to do so, ownership of the "property" would revert to Alaska. I suppose that is what happened to my property. Thing is, I never received a bill for those taxes. How could I pay without being billed? I'm going to hire a lawyer and get my property back and, to the point, declare myself lord. Maybe that square inch is directly under a pipeline and they will have to pay back, and future, rent. Yeah.

[Bob Harper]

I think you are right; it was the excessive regulatory meddling that led
to Brexit.

Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

But Andrew, courtesy so so old-fashioned, innit? No, not really; more
courtesy would make this a better world, as I think you and I both
understand.

Bob Harper

[Andrew Clarke]

Baron Berger of Ketchican - addressed as Lord Berger - does have a certain ring to it, except you would be endlessly parodied as Baron Hamburger of Ketchup. I'm afraid this is the best we can do, as the British Sovereign has only created barons in the past forty years. These are now always Life Peerages, which end at the recipient's death so your oldest surviving son will not inherit.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 7:57:42 AM UTC+11, Graham wrote:

> Menuhin, a long-term UK resident, was given an honorary knighthood but
> couldn't use the title until he took out citizenship. He was later ennobled.

Baron Menuhin of Stoke d'Abernon. Coat of Arms: upon a shield, three matzah balls rampant over the motto 'Practise, Practise, Practise'.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 1:56:18 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:

> But Andrew, courtesy so so old-fashioned, innit? No, not really; more
> courtesy would make this a better world, as I think you and I both
> understand.
>

The most effortlessly courteous people I've ever met were members of a male voice choir from Chattanooga.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Graham]

Apart from the hereditary Earldom given to Harold MacMillan in 1984.

[Andrew Clarke]

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 3:28:31 PM UTC+11, Graham wrote:

>Apart from the hereditary Earldom given to Harold MacMillan in 1984.

The last thirty-eight years, then! I forgot about old Supermac, although i well remember the political cartoons of the day. Last Prime Minister to be given an hereditary peerage on retirement, although I believe he'd previously turned one down. The current Earl of Stockton is rather different:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Macmillan,_2nd_Earl_of_Stockton>

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Frank Berger]

We are talking about my title in my one square inch domain in Alaska. I don't care about no stinkin' British title. And as I have no son, my title will pass to one of my daughters. I don't know which one. I haven't yet determined the rules of succession.

[MickeyBoy]

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 10:26:57 PM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The most effortlessly courteous people I've ever met were members of a male voice choir from Chattanooga.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

Agreed about the triumph of woke offense and the demise of simple courtesy. The most naturally and openly courteous exchange I ever had was with a few members of the University of Oklahoma wrestling team on a flight to St Louis. The conversation was so engaging that the stewardess thought I was their coach. This was well before woke progressivism overtook American higher education.

[Frank Berger]

Among the set of all character traits, I'm not sure courtesy ranks very high. Besides, courtesy can be faked and it can be shallow.

[Owen]

Since you didn't pay your taxes (not getting a bill is no excuse!), your
inch has probably been taken for tax title and is not under any pipeline
but a grizzly bear has left some former personal property on it.

-Owen

[Frank Berger]

>>>>>> Meanwhile, Rattle has also been awarded the Order of Merit, which is generally regarded as more valuable than a knighthood as recipients of the latter are recommended to the sovereign by the Prime Minister of the day, and so are likely to be awarded for political reason As.

>>>>>>
>>>>>> When push comes to shove, if I ever get to meet the President of the United States, which is unlikely, I shall address him as Mr President and not Sleepy Joe, Old Fishface or any other soubriquet, derogatory or otherwise, because that is the courteous thing to do. If I ever meet Sir John Eliot Gardiner - even less likely - I shall address him as Sir John, because that is the courteous thing to do also. Mind you, Sir Charles Groves, an excellent conductor long forgotten, was addressed by members of his orchestras as 'Charlie' both before and after his knighthood, but that, you see, was his decision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andrew Clarke
>>>>>> Canberra
>>>>> In the mid 50's I, along with thousands of others, acquired, from a Quaker Oats cereal box, a deed showing ownership of 1 square inch of land in Alaska. A little research shows the deed said the owners were obligated to pay Alaskan property taxes, and that, failing to do so, ownership of the "property" would revert to Alaska. I suppose that is what happened to my property. Thing is, I never received a bill for those taxes. How could I pay without being billed? I'm going to hire a lawyer and get my property back and, to the point, declare myself lord. Maybe that square inch is directly under a pipeline and they will have to pay back, and future, rent. Yeah.
>>>>
>>>> Baron Berger of Ketchican - addressed as Lord Berger - does have a certain ring to it, except you would be endlessly parodied as Baron Hamburger of Ketchup.  I'm afraid this is the best we can do, as the British Sovereign has only created barons in the past forty years.
>>>
>>> Apart from the hereditary Earldom given to Harold MacMillan in 1984.
>>>
>>> These are now always Life Peerages, which end at the recipient's death so your oldest surviving son will not inherit.
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Clarke
>>>> Canberra
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> We are talking about my title in my one square inch domain in Alaska.  I don't care about no stinkin' British title.  And as I have no son, my title will pass to one of my daughters.  I don't know which one.  I haven't yet determined the rules of succession.
>
> Since you didn't pay your taxes (not getting a bill is no excuse!), your inch has probably been taken for tax title and is not under any pipeline but a grizzly bear has left some former personal property on it.
>
> -Owen

How am I supposed to pay my taxes without getting a bill. The whole thing was a fraud. After I sue and win, I will be able afford cleaning up the bear poop.

[Andrew Clarke]

Unfortunately the Rules of Succession have already been determined, and if you have no male issue, the title goes to your nearest male relative, e.g. your cousin Bernie in Mamaroneck. If you had been given an hereditary title your daughters would already be called either The Honourable Sonia Berger or Lady Sonia Berger, but not Lady Berger, who would be the wife of a knight. Magdalena could use this style if she wanted to, but as yet I've never heard of her doing this. Kissin' Kozenas yes, Lady Rattle, no.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 7:57:42 AM UTC+11, Graham wrote:

> Menuhin, a long-term UK resident, was given an honorary knighthood but
> couldn't use the title until he took out citizenship. He was later ennobled.

'Oh I'll tak' the High Tinck an' you tak' the Low Tinck,
An' I'll get a knighthood afore ye ...'

Bernard Haitinck - the Dutch conductor, not Frank's cousin in Mamaroneck - received not only an honorary knighthood, but, I've just discovered, an honorary Companion of Honour as well. Again, the CH is often seen as more valuable than a knighthood, being in the sovereign's gift and not subject to political pressures.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Graham]

And the number of honorees is strictly limited whereas knighthoods are
dispensed like confetti.

[Andrew Clarke]

I'd much rather have a fake courteous conversation than a sincere flame war.
Isn't courtesy more a question of accepted social convention rather than a character trait?

Incidentally, I suspect that future historians of the late twentieth century might well consider how Usenet, a golden opportunity for courteous cooperation, rapidly turned into a conduit for personal abuse between strangers.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

Maybe they thought you were Leonard Slatkin?

Mr Slatkin also has a knighthood, btw, as he's a Chevalier of the French Legion of Honour, and rightly so. I've just discovered, btw, that Mr Slatkin, Marin Alsop and Kenneth Jean are the only American conductors in my collection ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

Sir Michael Jagger does give one pause for thought, not to mention the late Dame Barbara Windsor. I wonder if anybody at all addresses the former as 'Sir Mick'?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Frank Berger]

Again, those are GB rules not mine.

[Frank Berger]

On 3/31/2022 9:00 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 3:20:43 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 3/30/2022 11:26 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 1:56:18 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
>>>
>>>> But Andrew, courtesy so so old-fashioned, innit? No, not really; more
>>>> courtesy would make this a better world, as I think you and I both
>>>> understand.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The most effortlessly courteous people I've ever met were members of a male voice choir from Chattanooga.
>>>
>>> Andrew Clarke
>>> Canberra
>> Among the set of all character traits, I'm not sure courtesy ranks very high. Besides, courtesy can be faked and it can be shallow.
>
> I'd much rather have a fake courteous conversation than a sincere flame war.

I think there would be no point to such a conversation.

> Isn't courtesy more a question of accepted social convention rather than a character trait?

Not necessarily.

>
> Incidentally, I suspect that future historians of the late twentieth century might well consider how Usenet, a golden opportunity for courteous cooperation, rapidly turned into a conduit for personal abuse between strangers.
>

Simple. You can't get punched in the nose over the internet. The threat of being banned is less of a deterrent.



> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

[Frank Berger]

I once had a very civil conversation about the legality of the second Iraq war with a very pleasant record store clerk in Madison, Wisconsin. He, of course, took the position that the war was illegal and that George Bush was a war criminal. I trotted out my argument that as the Iraqi government was not representative and ours is, we had every moral right to overthrow it, if we felt like it. (Whether that was a good idea is a different question). I don't remember the details of the conversation, but it was respectful.

I think this took place at the Exclusive Co. which still exists, but I believe does not have a store in Madison.

[Graham]

Only when they're taking it!

[Andrew Clarke]

Frank, you can't go around behaving like a Berger King!

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 1:40:42 PM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 3/31/2022 9:00 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 3:20:43 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 3/30/2022 11:26 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 1:56:18 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> But Andrew, courtesy so so old-fashioned, innit? No, not really; more
> >>>> courtesy would make this a better world, as I think you and I both
> >>>> understand.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> The most effortlessly courteous people I've ever met were members of a male voice choir from Chattanooga.
> >>>
> >>> Andrew Clarke
> >>> Canberra
> >> Among the set of all character traits, I'm not sure courtesy ranks very high. Besides, courtesy can be faked and it can be shallow.
> >
> > I'd much rather have a fake courteous conversation than a sincere flame war.
> I think there would be no point to such a conversation.

I think there is a whole lot of point in a courteous conversation in a group like this one, especially where we have representatives of two nations divided by a common language. The recent example of the use of 'fine' as in 'a fine performance' is very much a case in point. There would have been no point in my losing my temper about 'typical bloody Yanks who don't understand that the rest of the world doesn't necessarily use the English language the same way that they do' ;-) for example. You have to step back, analyse the situation and attempt a reasonably considerate response.

> > Isn't courtesy more a question of accepted social convention rather than a character trait?
> Not necessarily.

I am beginning to think that people use the word "courteous" in more than one way. I mean good manners and restraint, and the use of certain conventions which have evolved over centuries to prevent unnecessary conflict when, very often, none is justified.

> >
> > Incidentally, I suspect that future historians of the late twentieth century might well consider how Usenet, a golden opportunity for courteous cooperation, rapidly turned into a conduit for personal abuse between strangers.
> >
> Simple. You can't get punched in the nose over the internet. The threat of being banned is less of a deterrent.

But why on earth would any reasonably well brought-up or reasonably educated person want to start a flame war in the first place? People who can appreciate opera who turned their own newsgroup into a sewer? It's behaviour more appropriate to a schoolyard in a crime-ridden neighbourhood where nobody's graduated from high school in fifty years. All this wonderful technology being used as verbal toilet paper. What a waste.


Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Dan Koren]

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 11:57:07 PM UTC-7, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> But why on earth would any reasonably
> well brought-up or reasonably educated
> person want to start a flame war in the
> first place?

Ask Nero ...... ;-)

dk

[Andrew Clarke]

The metaphor is apt. Times are hard and will get harder. Even Philippe Jaroussky has had to take a job in a car wash to make ends meet:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYc_rHlNz7U>

This is, btw a brilliant production.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Frank Berger]

You will have to invade my 1 square inch kingdom to stop me.

[Frank Berger]

A person can act in a courteous manner because it comes innately to him. A person can act in a courteous manner because he is trying to behave in a way he wants to improve himself. He act in a courteous manner because he thinks it is socially acceptable. He can also be faking for ulterior motives. I don't think conversations with each of these individuals is likely to be equally productive. I agree that screaming and yelling and name calling and demonizing people who disagree with you is never productive, though I suppose it might make you feel better.

[Owen]

I'm afraid that the legal mechanism for resolving this is arbitration,
requiring a personal appearance by both you and the bear.

-Owen

[Frank Berger]

Seriously, I suppose this has been dealt with. Sounds like a class action suit to me.

[Andrew Clarke]

Bears with class used to be a feature of rec.music.opera in the good old days ....

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Joe]

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 10:25:39 AM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:

> We are talking about my title in my one square inch domain in Alaska. I don't care about no stinkin' British title. And as I have no son, my title will pass to one of my daughters. I don't know which one. I haven't yet determined the rules of succession.

An interesting way to divide such an inheritance might be to ask your daughters to say which doth love you most.

Joe Markley
Plantsville, Connecticut

[Frank Berger]

I am going to tell each of them that she is the inheritor and not to believe it if any of here sisters claim otherwise.
>
> Joe Markley
> Plantsville, Connecticut