Fritz Reiner and Josef Krips
Dontait...@aol.com
Symphony in William Schuman's Symphony no 3 (1962/3 season) brought
this story to mind. I apologize if I've posted it here before and am
duplicating. I heard this from a CSO member who "was there." Please
remember that Reiner liked American slang; it's part of the payoff of
this.
Josef Krips appeared numerous times as a CSO guest conductor during
the 1950s and '60s. At one point, Fritz Reiner was rehearsing Brahms's
Academic Festival Overture. He stopped. He looked at the first
violinists and said "Vere dit you get dose bowingss?" The
concertmaster, probably John Weicher, said "from the last time we
played it -- with Maestro Krips."
Reiner replied "Krips??" (pronounced Kreeps). "Dey give me
d'CREEPS!!!"
I think the bowings got changed.
Don Tait
notesetter
consider adding a few more Reiner stories to this thread.
Here is one I read in one of the past issues of the Double Reed
Society:
Reiner was rehearsing Beethoven's "Pastorale" and evidently was not
completely happy with the way Ray Still was playing some of the oboe
passages. Reiner asked Still whether he had ever played the work
before. Still replied that yes he had, when he was in Baltimore.
Reiner snorted- "BAH!! In Baltimore - mit der Orioles!!"
Heck51
> Beautiful! Feel free to possibly duplicate yourself and please
> consider adding a few more Reiner stories to this thread.>>
Another one from the Int'l 2ble Reed Society - interview with Leonard
Sharrow -
Beethoven Sym #4 was on the program - with famous bassoon staccato
lick in last mvt...[on every audition].
Sharrow was on stage, before rehearsal, practicing the lick, using a
variety of different articulations - slur/tongue combinations, at
different tempi.
.Reiner enters, comes out on stage, scowling, as always - takes stock
of who's doing what - glares at Sharrow - "NO SLURS!!" - continues on
to podium...
Sharrow did use slurs in the performance, because Reiner really hauls
ass on this movement - up around 152+ = 1/4 note.Sharrow, a great
player, did not 2ble tongue...
Roger Kulp
spoke with an affected German accent,much as Stokowski made up a fake
generic Eastern European accent.When you listen to someone like Georg
Solti speak,there is no doubt doubt where he was from,and with someone
like Reiner (?) or Stokowski,it can be very annoying.I can sort of
understand why Stoky did this,but did Reiner,and if so does anybody
know why?
Roger
Alan Cooper
news:09c3832e-461f-4f42...@h28g2000yqd.googlegroups.
com:
I don't know about Reiner per se, but I do know from friends and relatives of an
older immigrant generation that Hochdeutsch (High German) was the prestige language
for many aspiring (or pretentious) Austro-Hungarians. While perhaps affected
initially, the accent became second nature for them and carried over into their
English.
AC
Bob Lombard
Aside from that, many Hungarians e.g. Liszt grew up speaking German. I
have read that Liszt never did learn much Magyar-Hungarian. What was
Reiner's childhood experience?
bl
--
Music, books, a few movies
LombardMusic
http://www.amazon.com/shops/A3NRY9P3TNNXNA
Paul Goldstein
says...
Not only that - the population of Hungary had (and I believe still has) a
significant ethnic-German component, as a result of eighteenth-century Habsburg
policies and other factors. Transplanted Germans and Austrians lorded it over
the natives for quite some time, and maintained their Germanness even while
adopting names like Esterhazy. I don't remember what Frigyes-Fritz's ethnic
background was, though.
Paul
Reiner was the son of assimilated Jews who lived in Budapest. The
Reiners were part of a merchant class who spoke German, not Magyar, in
their daily lives. I don't recall if Hart addrersses the question,
but I would be surprised if Reiner even knew the Magyar language.
Thus, your disparagement of his accent is misguided.
Paul Goldstein
Dontait...@aol.com
You might have read things about Reiner's speech, but how in the
world can you say that he "spoke with an affected German accent"?
Reading about how he spoke is no way to judge how he really did. Who
said, implied that? Will you post whom? Why in the world would Reiner
have adopted a phony German accent? And have you *heard* recordings of
Reiner speaking? There are three, to begin with: his comments about
his CSO recording of Beethoven's 7th Symphony on an RCA Victor promo
LP; the 1957 or '58 interview with Steven Temmer from the radio,
published on CD by the Chicago Symphony; and the rather lengthy
interview of Reiner by Edward Downes, recorded for the Met broadcasts
shortly before Reiner's death in November 1963. In all of them, his
accent is distinctly, unmistakably, Hungarian. Particularly the
tendency to stress and lengthen vowel sounds. His accent is not as
pronounced as, say, Eugene Ormandy's or Joseph Szigeti's (both also
Hungarians), but it's there.
The Stokowski matter is a long and complicated one and a different
matter. In any case, there was nothing artificial or pretended German
about Fritz Reiner's English speech, at least as I hear it.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
This has to do with both your message and the previous one from
notesetter. Both concern Ray Still, Reiner, and slurs.
Ray very recently turned 90, and was a guest host for two hours on
WFMT at the time of his birthday, talking and playing recordings of
his choice. (The announcer was Lisa Flynn.) Ray sounds almost the
same, and as peppery as ever. To listen to him, one would never know
he's 90 years old. So...he told a neat story about Reiner and slurs
reminscent of the one about Leonard Sharrow and his bassoon.
Ray said the CSO and Reiner were about to rehearse Rossini's
overture "La Scala di Seta." Huge, important oboe parts at the start.
Reiner gave the tempo in numbers. Ray said he spoke up: "Doctor
Reiner, at that tempo I'll have to slur some notes. I don't think I
can play every note cleanly." Ray quoted Reiner:
"You MUST." End of discussion.
So off they went.
When they finished, Reiner congratulated everyone for bringing it
off so well. Especially Ray Still. With which Ray said on WFMT he said
to Reiner "well, you know, I couldn't have played every note cleanly
at that tempo, and I still slurred a little." He said Reiner replied
in his Hungarian accent (which Ray mimics wonderfully),
"You are very sneaky, because I did not hear."
Don Tait
P.S. The Reiner/CSO recording of that Rossini overture zips along,
indeed.
ronwhit
Don, doesn't Reiner also speak in the film "Carnegie Hall", albeit
briefly (backstage with Heifetz)?
Ron Whitaker
Dontait...@aol.com
> Don, doesn't Reiner also speak in the film "Carnegie Hall", albeit
> briefly (backstage with Heifetz)?
>
> Ron Whitaker
Hi, Ron -- I don't remember. I do recall that Bruno Walter does
after giving his autograph to a boy -- something like "there you go,
Tommy."
All the best, Don
Dontait...@aol.com
> Beautiful! Feel free to possibly duplicate yourself and please
> consider adding a few more Reiner stories to this thread.
OK. Here is one that again I might have told here before, but if so
perhaps some didn't see it. I heard it from Margaret Hillis, the
founder and long-time conductor of the CSO Chorus. Reiner had asked
her to start the Chorus and he had great respect for her, as did
everyone.
She said that one day around 1959, she was to go to lunch with
Reiner and waited outside Orchestra Hall for his car. It arrived, she
got in, and sat next to Reiner in the back seat.
Like many musicians, Reiner enjoyed gossip about colleagues. Being
Reiner, he also relished schadenfreude. Margaret said that that day he
was brimming with delight because he had both. As soon as she got into
the car Reiner said "haf you heard the news?" Rudolf Bing had just
fired Maria Callas from the Met. I don't remember whether she said
she'd already heard or not, but after they talked about it Margaret
said Reiner then said
"Callas has been fired from every place but Cape Canaveral!"
Don Tait
Paul Penna
<7508caa7-895d-4aee...@z10g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Dontait...@aol.com wrote:
I just checked - it's just Heifetz in the brief off-stage scene.
ivanmaxim
Don - you MUST write a book!!!!! What great stories!!!!! Wagner Fan
Dontait...@aol.com
> Don - you MUST write a book!!!!! What great stories!!!!! Wagner Fan
Thanks. Jeepers. But here is *another* Reiner anecdote. I love this
one. I was told this by the CSO's incomparable principal trumpeter,
Bud Herseth.
Bud said that at some point during the 1950s, he and and few
colleagues were in the back of Orchestra Hall and found Fritz Reiner's
small suite (with a private washroom) with the door open. Reiner was
away -- they thought for some time. Bud said he and his pals went in
and began to cavort in the boss's sanctuary. Bud said there were huge
drapes on the windows in Reiner's office overlooking Chicago's
Michigan Avenue. Bud draped himself in them and began to cavort. He
said they were all enjoying it until
Reiner unexpecedly walked in.
They all froze. He scared them all to death, of course, if only
because of his gimlet case. But he was the CSO's conductor, and their
boss. And they should nevver have been in his suite anyway. Reiner
looked at them without saying anything, and headed for the private
washroom in his suite. Bud said he said (thinking no doubt of Reiner's
office) "oh Doctor Reiner, we'll evacuate for you." To which Reiner
replied "This you cannot do," and closed his washroom door.
Don Tait
Heck51
Reiner anecdote. I love this
> one. I was told this by the CSO's incomparable principal trumpeter,
> Bud Herseth>>
A friend of mine played viola in the CSO from 19522-64, the whole
Reiner era...
he had quite a few great stories...
one involved a bass player, who was extremely short...he was so short,
that when he sat on his stool to play, he actually was taller than
when he stood on the stage floor...
Reiner would ask the Orchestra to stand, and this guy would shrink.
when he seated the orchestra, the guy would "grow".
Reiner began to suspect something was going on, orchestral
insubordination, or whatever - it appeared the player was doing
exactly the opposite of what Reiner was asking...
so this miscreant gets called into the Maestro's office after a
service [not a good omen] . the guy explains as best he can that he is
complying with the conductor's requests re sitting and standing, but
his size makes it appear odd....Reiner's suspicions are temporarily
assuaged, but he is still unconvinced.
It is only after Reiner checks with several of his section mates, and
other musicians that he gets the consistent story....and the bass
player is spared....
M forever
Can you - or anyone else who has the material and feels like it - post
a clip of Reiner speaking? I would like to hear that.
Damian R
"Paul Penna" <tter...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:tterrace-04800A...@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...
After the movement from the Tchaikovsky concerto, it is correct that only
Heifetz is involved. However, a few minutes before the concerto, at about
1h45min into the film (as released on the Bel Canto Society DVD), there is a
scene where Heifetz and Reiner discuss stage fright with Frank McHugh's
character (John Donovan). Reiner seems a little more natural than Heifetz on
screen, though he does have less to say!
Damian R
Norman Schwartz
"Damian R" <thes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:8N6dnQ-
>
> After the movement from the Tchaikovsky concerto, it is correct that only
> Heifetz is involved. However, a few minutes before the concerto, at about
> 1h45min into the film (as released on the Bel Canto Society DVD), there is
> a
Are you sure about that timing? My copy of this DVD seems to run a total
time of 1hr 31 min.
Paul Penna
"Damian R" <thes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I should have checked more carefully! Thanks. (On the Kino DVD, the
scene starts at 1:37:20). Reiner does come off more naturally (though he
does glance up briefly toward, presumably, the director off to the left
of the camera near the start). And that accent - it's clearly Hungarian,
almost in Bela Lugosi/Paul Lukas territory. Heifetz comes off as a sort
of nervous Paul Henreid.
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> Can you - or anyone else who has the material and feels like it - post
> a clip of Reiner speaking? I would like to hear that.
I'm unable to do so. I wish I could. Perhaps someone who owns the
1988 CSO Radiothon CD set, the Reiner tribute that contains Stephen
Temmer's interview of Reiner, can. I hope so. I'd love for you to hear
it, too.
Don Tait
Kerrison
Apropos the little acting scene with Heifetz and Reiner in "Carnegie
Hall" ... what a shame the person who put this clip onto You Tube
didn't give us that preceding segment as well as the Tchaikovsky
Concerto 1st mvt. ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFaq9kTlcaY
Well, at least we get the acting scene with Artur Rubinstein and
Eugene Ormandy (baton-less), plus Dana Andrews and Hoagy Carmichael,
in "Night Song" ...
Damian R
"Norman Schwartz" <nm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4c5d84fa$0$4987$607e...@cv.net...
>
> "Damian R" <thes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:8N6dnQ-
>>
>> After the movement from the Tchaikovsky concerto, it is correct that only
>> Heifetz is involved. However, a few minutes before the concerto, at about
>> 1h45min into the film (as released on the Bel Canto Society DVD), there
>> is a
>
>
> Are you sure about that timing? My copy of this DVD seems to run a total
> time of 1hr 31 min.
Yes. The total running time is 144mins (2hr 24)
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> Apropos the little acting scene with Heifetz and Reiner in "Carnegie
> Hall" ... what a shame the person who put this clip onto You Tube
> didn't give us that preceding segment as well as the Tchaikovsky
> Concerto 1st mvt. ...
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFaq9kTlcaY
>
> Well, at least we get the acting scene with Artur Rubinstein and
> Eugene Ormandy (baton-less), plus Dana Andrews and Hoagy Carmichael,
> in "Night Song" ...
Concerning acting in the film, I seem to remember reading that after
he filmed his part, including giving the autograph to the boy and
saying four words, Bruno Walter wrote to someone (tongue-in-cheek)
that he'd made his debut as a movie actor but that the Hollywood stars
probably didn't need to fear that he'd eclipse them. Walter could be
whimsical and, long-time friends said, very amusing, even downright
funny. In Erik Ryding's biography, perhaps?
Don Tait
Heck51
Perhaps someone who owns the
> 1988 CSO Radiothon CD set, the Reiner tribute that contains Stephen
> Temmer's interview of Reiner, can. I hope so. I'd love for you to hear
> it, too.>>
Was that included on an early CSO archival release?? I might have that
on cassette tape...
Dontait...@aol.com
[edit]
> I should have checked more carefully! Thanks. (On the Kino DVD, the
> scene starts at 1:37:20). Reiner does come off more naturally (though he
> does glance up briefly toward, presumably, the director off to the left
> of the camera near the start). And that accent - it's clearly Hungarian,
> almost in Bela Lugosi/Paul Lukas territory. Heifetz comes off as a sort
> of nervous Paul Henreid.
Yes -- Reiner's accent was clearly Hungarian. Bela Lugosi is a
perfect example. In fact: may I say that when Reiner smiled broadly he
*looked* like Bela Lugosi? In Orchestra Hall, Reiner had conducted a
concert and the second half was all-Wagner. Always sure-fire with
Reiner. It ended with a sensational performance of the "Tannhauser"
Overture (Dresden version). Incredible. The audience went crazy with
cheering, including me. Reiner came back out, clasped his hands
together, raised his arms above his head, and shook them. Like
President Eisenhower's campaign gesture. Reiner smiled hugely at the
audience. I thought to myself then, as I looked at him, "he looks like
Bela Lugosi!"
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
Yes, it was a CSO archival release -- "From the Archives," vol. III,
for the WFMT CSO Radiothon 13 in 1988. I don't know whether there was
a cassette tape release of it or not. David Royko would. There might
have been an LP set counterpart, but again David would know. I have a
two-CD set of it.
Don Tait
M forever
I am confused now. You said you couldn't post the interview so I
thought that was because you don't have the recording of it. Or do
mean you don't know how and where to upload it? If so, let me know, I
can give you instructions. It is very easy and I have a filesharing
site that it can be uploaded to. You don't even need any special
tools. I suppose you have Windows Media Player because that comes with
every computer and that can easily do the trick. That's assuming that
you have a PC though...
M forever
Ian Fleming said that James Bond looked "rather like Hoagy
Carmichael"...
Dontait...@aol.com
Thank you.
Of course I have a recording of the Reiner interview. That is how I
knew to quote the precise CSO set source: I looked at the set here.
I have said here, perhaps in other topics I admit, that I have
neither the knowledge, equipment, or interest to be able to upload
anything. My equipment has all failed. Honestly: I worked hard for
many decades about transferring records and broadcasting them. Many,
many hundreds of hours of work. But that required certain technical
knowledges at WFMT, and for me it's over now. I frankly don't care to
learn yet another new method. I'm sorry. I appreciate your sincerity
and the sincerity of your offer and yes, I have a personal computer.
But I have only the slightest idea about what to do with it.
Perhaps we could talk personally about your ideas to help me? I'd
welcome it.
Don Tait
M forever
The good news is that since your studio days, it has become so much
easier to do basic audio stuff on the PC. Of course, it has not really
become any easier to do really advanced audio stuff as that still
requires a lot of knowledge and experience, as each failed attempt by
our "design engineer" Ansermetniac demonstrates. But to extract a few
tracks from a CD you don't need that. You just need basic tools which
come with every PC, like Windows Media PLayer. I'll send you an email
with a few tips.
Heck51
actually, I friend of mine taped it from his CD set, IIRC...I think it
originally came out as LP and CD...I missed the CD set....damn!!
Norman Schwartz
Thanks Damian, I'd better check out all my numbers again, my mind ain't what
it used to be and wasn't all that great to begin with.
>
>
Edward Cowan
traits:
BMG/RCA 60176-2-RG, Prokofiev: Alexander Nevsky, Lt. Kijé Suite, Glinka:
R&L Ov.
BMG/RCA 09026-61796-2, Strauss: Don Quixote, Burleske
He does not have the cadaverous make-up that made Lugosi's Dracula so
creepy, and he is heavier than BL, but the resemblance between the two
is otherwise remarkable!
<Dontait...@aol.com> wrote:
<snip>
> In fact: may I say that when Reiner smiled broadly he
> *looked* like Bela Lugosi? In Orchestra Hall, Reiner had conducted a
> concert and the second half was all-Wagner. Always sure-fire with
> Reiner. It ended with a sensational performance of the "Tannhauser"
> Overture (Dresden version). Incredible. The audience went crazy with
> cheering, including me. Reiner came back out, clasped his hands
> together, raised his arms above his head, and shook them. Like
> President Eisenhower's campaign gesture. Reiner smiled hugely at the
> audience. I thought to myself then, as I looked at him, "he looks like
> Bela Lugosi!"
>
> Don Tait
--
hrabanus
Paul Penna
"Norman Schwartz" <nm...@optonline.net> wrote:
FWIW, the Kino version runs 2:15:41 (135 min 41 sec). Bel Canto's site
claims its version runs 144 minutes, which agrees with the imdb (again,
FWIW). Bel Canto further claims that original 1947 versions varied in
running time, with some musical numbers eliminated or shortened and that
portions of some dialog sequences were also edited. They say that they
culled four different prints to assemble theirs. Kino's states that it's
mastered "from the original nitrate negative," which of course could
have more than one meaning. While the Kino image quality is quite good
and obviously derives from a fairly early-generation 35mm element, it
doesn't have crispness and tonal range I'd expect from a transfer of the
original _camera_ negative. It's more likely an original _duplicate_
negative off a fine grain master made from the original camera negative.
I don't know what the Bel Canto release looks like.
Heck51
> knew to quote the precise CSO set source: I looked at the set here.>>
another Reiner anecdote comes from Jerry Sirucek [CSO ObII 1941-61],
from the IDRS source.
Sirucek clams that Reiner heard every mistake during rehearsal and
concert - and always let the offending musician know that he knew -
the "glare", the shaking of the head, the sneer directed at the
miscreant - during performance, of course...sooner or later - you'd
get "the look".
The CSO was playing Dvorak Sym#7 - the 2nd mvt starts very softly,
with a nasty low part for oboe II - pp low C in the 2nd measure and at
phrase ending...in the concert, the low C did not speak. it just got
"stuck", didn't come out.
Sirucek swore to himself - Reiner's not going to get me this time - I
just won't make eye contact...he can't get me if I don't look.
He got thru the rest of the mvt, got thru the scherzo, was cruising
along nicely, unadmonished by the vindictive, ominpresent Reiner...
then - at some point in the finale, Sirucek lapsed - looked right at
Reiner - and there it was - the "glare" right at him, the slight shake
of the head, the sneer - <<you thought you'd get away with it??!! Not!!
>>
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> another Reiner anecdote comes from Jerry Sirucek [CSO ObII 1941-61],
> from the IDRS source.
>
> Sirucek clams that Reiner heard every mistake during rehearsal and
> concert - and always let the offending musician know that he knew -
> the "glare", the shaking of the head, the sneer directed at the
> miscreant - during performance, of course...sooner or later - you'd
> get "the look".
>
> The CSO was playing Dvorak Sym#7 - the 2nd mvt starts very softly,
> with a nasty low part for oboe II - pp low C in the 2nd measure and at
> phrase ending...in the concert, the low C did not speak. it just got
> "stuck", didn't come out.
> Sirucek swore to himself - Reiner's not going to get me this time - I
> just won't make eye contact...he can't get me if I don't look.
> He got thru the rest of the mvt, got thru the scherzo, was cruising
> along nicely, unadmonished by the vindictive, ominpresent Reiner...
> then - at some point in the finale, Sirucek lapsed - looked right at
> Reiner - and there it was - the "glare" right at him, the slight shake
> of the head, the sneer - <<you thought you'd get away with it??!! Not!!
A good story I'd never heard. Thanks.
It reminds me of another Reiner story I heard from Bud Herseth.
I think the work involved was Mendelssohn's "Italian" Symphony with
Reiner. Bud said he mis-counted and came in a bit early somewhere --
just a little note, but before he should have. Reiner looked at him.
Bud said, like Jerry Sirucek, that Reiner heard everything and missed
nothing. Bud said that he knew he'd messed up, and decided to try to
head the possible problem off at the pass, as it were. He asked to see
Reiner after the concert. He said "Doctor Reiner, I know I made a
mistake in the symphony. It was entirely my fault. I'm sorry, and I've
come to apologize."
Bud said Reiner smiled and said "Ah, mistakes happen! You know it
happened. I know it happened. The audience -- they probably don't know
it happened." With which Reiner said
"DON'T LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN!!"
Good story, Heck. Thanks.
Don Tait
GMS
Hope you're well. Gary Stucka
Kepler
Kepler
linde...@gmail.com
> Roger Kulp <thoren...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:09c3832e-461f-4f42...@h28g2000yqd.googlegroups.
> com:
> > Reiner was Hungarian,yet everything I have read about
> > him,implies he spoke with an affected German accent,much as
> > Stokowski made up a fake generic Eastern European accent.When
> > you listen to someone like Georg Solti speak,there is no doubt
> > doubt where he was from,and with someone like Reiner (?) or
> > Stokowski,it can be very annoying.I can sort of understand why
> > Stoky did this,but did Reiner,and if so does anybody know why?
>
> older immigrant generation that Hochdeutsch (High German) was the prestige language
> for many aspiring (or pretentious) Austro-Hungarians. While perhaps affected
> initially, the accent became second nature for them and carried over into their
> English.
>
> AC
Franz Liszt spoke German, and no Hungarian. German was apparently the language of the "cultured" people in Hungary then.
Mort Linder
Andrew Clarke
I believe Czech has the same problem in terms of difficulty. Didn't Kafka write in both Czech and German?
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
Jason Hong
> I have a Metropolitan Opera intermission broadcast during the 12/1962 Rosenkavalier in which Reiner discusses his career. I could share that if there is interest.
> Kepler
There is absolutely interest! Would you please share?
Thank you for your time.
Jason
drh8h
Néstor Castiglione
> Kepler