Mahler 6,9: Barbirolli vs. Karajan and others...
stevt...@rocketmail.com
Hello, I am a fairly new classical music listener and have been reading
this newsgroup quite frequently. I am currently building a collection of
Mahler recordings based on recommendations from this great newsgroup and
my personal opinions. This is what I have so far, and I am extremely
pleased with them:
1: Kubelik
2: Klemperer
3: Horenstein
4: will get Szell
5: Barbirolli
7: Abbado
8: Solti
10: will get Rattle
However, I am stuck with what to get for 6 and 9. I've read great things
about Barbirolli's 6 and 9 but for some reason I do not want to get him
again since I already have his 5th...and a great 5th it is, too. For the
6th, I have heard Bernstein/DG, Kubelik, Szell, and von Karajan and I
really like the Karajan--it seems to have the perfect pace for the first
movement. Normally, I would get the von Karajan right away, but I have
seen such favorable reviews for Barbirolli's on this NG so I've held off
a little bit (plus I can't seem to find it on any online stores--if it is
still available can someone give me the cat. # or point me to a site that
has it?). Now I do know Karajan doesn't fare well on this newsgroup and,
yes, I know the whole bit about Barbirolli conducting Mahler with the BPO
way before von Karajan did, so I may be asking the wrong crowd. But, to
those who have heard both Karajan and Barbirolli's 6th and can give me an
unbiased answer, should I go on ahead and bite the bullet by buying the
Barbirolli without listening to it?
Same deal with the 9th. I've heard Bernstein/DG, Kubelik, Walter, and
Inbal and all of these are great recordings. But I do not have access to
either of Karajan's 9th's or Barbirolli's and I've seen favorable reviews
for both of them, most notably Barbirolli's. So are both of these
recordings better than the ones I previously mentioned, and if they are,
which one should I go on ahead and buy?
Other recommendations are also welcome...
Thanks,
Steve Taylor
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
John Grabowski
AVIKG wrote:
>
> In article <19980102033...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, analo...@aol.com
> (AnalogEars) writes:
>
> >Favorite Seconds are Bernstein on CBS--with the NYPO
>
> good choice.
>
> avik-gms
Is this on CD in the U.S? I haven't seen it, though I admit I haven't
moved heaven and earth to find it.
Would love to hear it, though.
John
--
A boy's best friend is his mother. --Norman Bates
EMNagamine
John Grabowski wrote:
> > >Favorite Seconds are Bernstein on CBS--with the NYPO
> >
> > good choice.
>
> Is this on CD in the U.S? I haven't seen it, though I admit I haven't
> moved heaven and earth to find it.
>
> Would love to hear it, though.
>
Released just a couple of months ago by Sony coupled with the Lincoln Center opening
night recording of the 1st movement of the 8th symphony and a live M5 adagietto from
a RFK memorial service. Sony SM2K 63159
--
Aloha,
Eric
Haouli Makahiki Hou
Simon Roberts
stevt...@rocketmail.com wrote:
[generally excellent list snipped]
: However, I am stuck with what to get for 6 and 9. I've read great things
: about Barbirolli's 6 and 9 but for some reason I do not want to get him
: again since I already have his 5th...and a great 5th it is, too. For the
: 6th, I have heard Bernstein/DG, Kubelik, Szell, and von Karajan and I
: really like the Karajan--it seems to have the perfect pace for the first
: movement. Normally, I would get the von Karajan right away, but I have
: seen such favorable reviews for Barbirolli's on this NG so I've held off
: a little bit (plus I can't seem to find it on any online stores--if it is
: still available can someone give me the cat. # or point me to a site that
: has it?). Now I do know Karajan doesn't fare well on this newsgroup and,
: yes, I know the whole bit about Barbirolli conducting Mahler with the BPO
: way before von Karajan did, so I may be asking the wrong crowd. But, to
: those who have heard both Karajan and Barbirolli's 6th and can give me an
: unbiased answer, should I go on ahead and bite the bullet by buying the
: Barbirolli without listening to it?
I'm no Karajan fan on the whole, but his 6th is excellent; a fairly
central, quirk-free performance that doesn't underplay the drama or
smother the thing with thick textures and excessive legato, and which has
a very moving performance of the slow movement at its center. Barbirolli's
is vastly different in the first movement -- indeed, it's vastly different
from any other I've heard. If you listen to it after almost any other it
will seem extremely slow: without the repeat, he takes longer than most
with it. But it's immensely powerful, superbly recorded and awfully well
played, and, I would say, pretty much indispensable if you are to have
more than one recording. And the coupling, a rich, slow, wallow in
Strauss's Heldenleben, is wonderful too. (I much prefer this to his 5.)
The catalogue number is 69349. Of the others you mention, I like
Bernstein, whose first movement is brutal and fast, vastly more so than
Barbirolli's, but find Szell's undercharacterized and poorly recorded.
Since Barbirolli's is so cheap, you could get his and a more conventional
performance, such as Karajan's; on the other hand, maybe Karajan's will be
reissued on DG Originals....
: Same deal with the 9th. I've heard Bernstein/DG, Kubelik, Walter, and
: Inbal and all of these are great recordings. But I do not have access to
: either of Karajan's 9th's or Barbirolli's and I've seen favorable reviews
: for both of them, most notably Barbirolli's. So are both of these
: recordings better than the ones I previously mentioned, and if they are,
: which one should I go on ahead and buy?
I was disappointed by Barbirolli's 9th, which although extremely good,
seems undercharacterized compared with his 6th. Karajan's second
recording of it has perhaps the most intense performance of the last
movement on records, an astonishing achievement and, as far as I'm
concerned, indispensable for that reason alone; the rest is good, but not
on that level. Between those two, I would take Karajan's second. As for
Bernstein, which have you heard? The DG Concertgebouw is rather a
different conception -- especially the extremely slow last movement --
from the earlier accident-prone, live BPO recording.
: Other recommendations are also welcome...
Solti's 6th is superbly nasty, but is confined to his complete set at the
moment. I have too many 9ths that I would be loathe to be without to
strongly endorse one or two, but I am particularly fond of Klemperer's
(terse, stern), Horenstein/LSO/live, Sinopoli's (suitably
neurotic), Ancerl's (lean, light-textured), Levine's (ratherplain, but
dramatic), Gielen's (it has a hilarious performance of the second
movement among other delights) and Giulini's (rather cool).
Simon
AnalogEars
<< For the
6th, I have heard Bernstein/DG, Kubelik, Szell, and von Karajan and I
really like the Karajan--it seems to have the perfect pace for the first
movement. Normally, I would get the von Karajan right away, but I have
seen such favorable reviews for Barbirolli's on this NG so I've held off
a little bit (plus I can't seem to find it on any online stores--if it is
still available can someone give me the cat. #>>
EMI Classics 0777 7 67816 2 4 = Barbirolli's Mahler 6
<<should I go on ahead and bite the bullet by buying the
Barbirolli without listening to it?>>
I used to own between ten and twenty different versions of each Mahler
symphony. I downsized at a certain point when I realized I only listened to one
or two of each work time and time again. My favorite Sixth is Bernstein's on
CBS. The only one I have ever listened to as much is Barbirolli's. I think both
are wonderful, but if I could only keep one, it would be the Lenny B.
<<Same deal with the 9th. I've heard Bernstein/DG, Kubelik, Walter, and
Inbal and all of these are great recordings. But I do not have access to
either of Karajan's 9th's or Barbirolli's and I've seen favorable reviews
for both of them, most notably Barbirolli's. So are both of these
recordings better than the ones I previously mentioned, and if they are,
which one should I go on ahead and buy?>>
Of all of these, I like Bernstein on CBS for all but the fourth movement, which
I like more on the DG version. I have heard all the others--I used to own all
of the others, except Kubelik, but the two Bernsteins were the only ones I
listened to.
Also, for the First, there is a new recording on Harmonia Mundi (Judd/Florida
Phil.) which is my new favorite.
And I like the Karajan Fourth best. (Actually, I like the Mengeleberg Fourth
best, but that is something you'd want to buy after you're familiar with the
work as it is very definitely not modern sound.
Favorite Seconds are Bernstein on CBS--with the NYPO that was recently released
on CD and Simon Rattle.
Simon Roberts
AnalogEars (analo...@aol.com) wrote:
: << For the
: 6th, I have heard Bernstein/DG, Kubelik, Szell, and von Karajan and I
: really like the Karajan--it seems to have the perfect pace for the first
: movement. Normally, I would get the von Karajan right away, but I have
: seen such favorable reviews for Barbirolli's on this NG so I've held off
: a little bit (plus I can't seem to find it on any online stores--if it is
: still available can someone give me the cat. #>>
: EMI Classics 0777 7 67816 2 4 = Barbirolli's Mahler 6
That's the first CD issue, coupled with Strauss's Metamorphosen. The
reissue in the Forte series (69349), coupled with Heldenleben, has
distinctly better sound, with more "information" at both ends of the
frequency range. (Unfortunately, those of us who want the Metamorphosen
are stuck with an otherwise redundant, space-wasting duplication.)
Simon
Craig Ferguson
On Thu, 01 Jan 1998 21:02:29 -0600, stevt...@rocketmail.com wrote:
>Hello, I am a fairly new classical music listener and have been reading
>this newsgroup quite frequently. I am currently building a collection of
>Mahler recordings based on recommendations from this great newsgroup and
>my personal opinions. This is what I have so far, and I am extremely
>pleased with them:
>
>1: Kubelik
>2: Klemperer
>3: Horenstein
>4: will get Szell
>5: Barbirolli
>7: Abbado
>8: Solti
>10: will get Rattle
>
Great list, because it's almost identical my favorites list. Don't
hesitate getting the Karajan Mahler 6th, it's outstanding! As for the
Mahler 9th, I decided to go with Giulini's outstanding performance
with the CSO on DG. I purchased it at bargain price, and it qualified
with my desire to have broader based collection of conductors.
I would suggest considering adding some Bernstein, either his Sony or
more current DG perfomances. My two favorite are Bernstein's Mahler 1
and 7 on DG. His performances are usually the ultimate in high
powered , almost to the point of excess, like Horenstein or Solti.
AVIKG
>Favorite Seconds are Bernstein on CBS--with the NYPO
good choice.
avik-gms
MWKluge
In article <68hos7$bn9$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, si...@dept.english.upenn.edu
(Simon Roberts) writes:
>AnalogEars (analo...@aol.com) wrote:
: << For the 6th, I have heard Bernstein/DG, Kubelik, Szell, and von Karajan
and I
: really like the Karajan--it seems to have the perfect pace for the first
: movement Normally, I would get the von Karajan right away, but I have
: seen such favorable reviews for Barbirolli's on this NG so I've held off
: a little bit (plus I can't seem to find it on any online stores--if it is
: still available can someone give me the cat. #>>
: EMI Classics 0777 7 67816 2 4 =Barbirolli's Mahler 6
>That's the first CD issue, coupled with Strauss's
>Metamorphosen. The reissue in the Forte series (69349), coupled with
>Heldenleben, has distinctly better sound, with more "information" at both
>ends of the frequency range. (Unfortunately, those of us who want the
>Metamorphosen are stuck with an otherwise redundant, space-wasting
>duplication.)
>Simon
Barbirolli's Metamorphosen is, or was, also available on EMI CDM 5 65078 2,
coupled with Schoenberg's Pelleas.
Mark K.
Simon Roberts
John Grabowski (jg...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: Is this on CD in the U.S? I haven't seen it, though I admit I haven't
: moved heaven and earth to find it.
: Would love to hear it, though.
It was released a couple of month's ago on the new Sony Bernstein Edition
(coupled to a live Adagietto and a live, rather bad, Part 1 of #8); for
what it's worth, I think this is the best of his three recordings of it;
it's mid-price, too.
Simon
AnalogEars
Re, Bernstein's Mahler 2 with the NYPO, you asked: <<Is this on CD in the U.S?
moved heaven and earth to find it.
Would love to hear it, though.>>
It has just been released here on CD. I don't have the catalog number.
BrtherJohn
In article <68hmsk$eco$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, si...@dept.english.upenn.edu
(Simon Roberts) writes:
>>
Solti's 6th is superbly nasty, but is confined to his complete set at the
moment. I have too many 9ths that I would be loathe to be without to
strongly endorse one or two, but I am particularly fond of Klemperer's
(terse, stern), Horenstein/LSO/live, Sinopoli's (suitably
neurotic), Ancerl's (lean, light-textured), Levine's (ratherplain, but
dramatic), Gielen's (it has a hilarious performance of the second
movement among other delights) and Giulini's (rather cool).
<<
Uggh! I, for one, love Solti's 6th - with it appropriate goose-stepping pace
of the outer movements. The gorgeous Andante made me wish that he conducted
more Rachmaninoff.
Brthe...@aol.com (John Blair)
Alain DAGHER
The 6th by Barbirolli is as good as everyone says (much better in fact
than his 5th which I find too slow and lacking in pulse at times).
My personal favourite for this piece is Boulez/VPO on DG. Tremendous
playing and recorded sound, and the performance is outstanding. People
who say it lacks emotion and is too cold or rational have probably not
listened to it attentively.
For the ninth you should seek out Haitink's beautiful performance with
the Concertgebouw orchestra on Philips.
Also, if you want other great Mahler recordings, consider getting
Scherchen's 2nd and 7th on MCA Millenium Classics.
--
Regards,
"De la musique avant toute chose"
Alain Dagher, M.D.
Montreal Neurological Institute -Paul Verlaine
Charles Noble & Heather Blackburn
I must say that I very much like the Abbado/VSO/DGG recording of the 9th,
and (oddly enough) Boulez's 6th on DGG w/ Cleveland (I also like the 7th).
I must say that I'm swayed by the extraordinary playing of the VSO in the
9th (and in the coupled Adagio from the 10th), and that of the Cleveland
Orchestra in No. 6. Having played both of these works, I can attest that
they are extremely difficult (especially the 9th) and to have an orchestra
master them as these two have done is a testament to their virtuosity.
Chas.
Mr. Mike
On Thu, 01 Jan 1998 21:02:29 -0600, stevt...@rocketmail.com wrote:
>But, to
>those who have heard both Karajan and Barbirolli's 6th and can give me an
>unbiased answer, should I go on ahead and bite the bullet by buying the
>Barbirolli without listening to it?
Despite the general consensus that the Barbirolli is one of the greatest
recordings of all time, I can't handle the VERY slow tempo in the first
movement (and the lack of the repeat). If you don't hear it ahead of time,
you might get a big surprise. My favorite is the Bernstein DGG.
>Same deal with the 9th. I've heard Bernstein/DG, Kubelik, Walter, and
>Inbal and all of these are great recordings. But I do not have access to
>either of Karajan's 9th's or Barbirolli's and I've seen favorable reviews
>for both of them, most notably Barbirolli's. So are both of these
>recordings better than the ones I previously mentioned, and if they are,
>which one should I go on ahead and buy?
The analog Karajan is regarded more highly than the digital one (both were
recorded around the same time). Haven't heard Barbirolli's. I like
Bernstein's Vienna Philharmonic recording made in the Berlin Philharmonie
(only on laser disk/video tape) and the Lopez-Cobos on Telarc which has
exceptional sound and is sold at a two-for-one price.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The Hawaii Five-O Home Page: http://web20.mindlink.net/a4369/fiveo.htm
Mr. Mike
On 2 Jan 1998 19:09:43 GMT, analo...@aol.com (AnalogEars) wrote:
>Re, Bernstein's Mahler 2 with the NYPO...
>It has just been released here on CD. I don't have the catalog number.
I just happen to be listening to it on the way to work today, the number
is SM2K 63159.
It's a pretty scary performance ... at times it's like watching an out of
control train about to go off the tracks, then you're amazed by how the
engineer gets everything back to normal! ";-/
Tony Movshon
stevt...@rocketmail.com writes:
>This is what I have so far, and I am extremely
>pleased with them:
>
>1: Kubelik
>2: Klemperer
>3: Horenstein
>4: will get Szell
>5: Barbirolli
>7: Abbado
>8: Solti
>10: will get Rattle
You should be pleased; this is an excellent list.
>However, I am stuck with what to get for 6 and 9. I've read great things
>about Barbirolli's 6 and 9 but for some reason I do not want to get him
>again since I already have his 5th...and a great 5th it is, too. For the
>6th, I have heard Bernstein/DG, Kubelik, Szell, and von Karajan and I
>really like the Karajan--it seems to have the perfect pace for the first
>movement.
As others have noted, Barbirolli's 6th is *very* slow, especially in
the first movement. I personally think it's a wonderful performance,
but I am not sure it makes a good recommendation for a first purchase,
for which something a little more middle-of-the-road would be in order.
I do not find Karajan's 6th to be offensive, but it is not among my
favorites. To borrow Simon's word of the week, it's undercharacterized
compared to Bernstein/NY (Sony), Segerstam (Chandos), and Solti (Decca
import only, NAS in the US). Of these three, Solti's remains my
favorite -- immense power, the right degree of hysteria (Bernstein
goes overboard more than once), superb playing and recording. The
Segerstam I only got recently, and it's growing on me; it also has the
benefit of fabulous recorded sound.
A note about the two CD issues of the Barbirolli 6th. The first (EMI
Rouge et Noir, coupled with Strauss' Metamorphosen) sounds a little
less good than the second (though still fine), but has for me the huge
advantage of placing the two middle movements in the "usual" order --
Scherzo, then Andante. In the Double Forte reissue (coupled with
Heldenleben), the Andante is played first, which I dislike. I also
dislike programming tracks on my CD player to fix the problem. I would
add that the coupled Heldenleben really is a wallowing, soggy
performance, which I do not like; the Metamorphosen, on the other
hand, is wonderful. If you get Barbirolli, go for the first issue.
>Same deal with the 9th. I've heard Bernstein/DG, Kubelik, Walter, and
>Inbal and all of these are great recordings. But I do not have access to
>either of Karajan's 9th's or Barbirolli's and I've seen favorable reviews
>for both of them, most notably Barbirolli's. So are both of these
>recordings better than the ones I previously mentioned, and if they are,
>which one should I go on ahead and buy?
>Other recommendations are also welcome...
I do not particularly enjoy either of Karajan's 9ths, but if you must
have one, get the first, which has *some* feeling to it. The second
seems to me to be all about orchestral gloss and not about Mahler. I
like Barbirolli's 9th, but it would probably not be my first choice.
Klemperer is the one I return to most; his way with this music is
extraordinary for its clarity, articulation, and emotional balance.
The first Solti recording, with the LSO, is another perennial
favorite, especially for the extraordinarily pungent middle movements
(I suspect it's not currently available). Bernstein/CGO on DGG is
another fine choice (but avoid his BPO performance). Segerstam, again,
is very fine and superbly recorded. Giulini has extraordinary warmth
and humanity. There are also two extraordinary live Horensteins -- LSO
on M&A, ONF on Chant du Monde. Both have the usualy live-performance
blemishes and so-so recorded sound, but they are astounding
nonetheless. I would recommend that whoever spoke of the emotional
content of the Karajan performance of the fourth movement should give
those two a listen ...
Tony Movshon
Center for Neural Science New York University
http://www.cns.nyu.edu mov...@nyu.edu
Simon Roberts
BrtherJohn (brthe...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <68hmsk$eco$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, si...@dept.english.upenn.edu
: (Simon Roberts) writes:
Why the "Uggh"? We seem to agree....
Simon
Vodnik
stevt...@rocketmail.com writes:
>Hello, I am a fairly new classical music listener and have
>been reading this newsgroup quite frequently. I am
>currently building a collection of Mahler recordings based
>on recommendations from this great newsgroup and my
>personal opinions. This is what I have so far, and I am
>extremely pleased with them:
>1: Kubelik
>2: Klemperer
>3: Horenstein
>4: will get Szell
>5: Barbirolli
>7: Abbado
>8: Solti
>10: will get Rattle
>However, I am stuck with what to get for 6 and 9.
Szell's is a great 4th, but I like Abravanel on Vanguard
even better- a fresh reading with a convincing "naive" feel
and an ideal soprano soloist (Netania Davrath). I haven't
seen a copy in a while, but it's still listed as being in
print.
I have Boulez/Vienna PO/DG (not Cleveland, as stated in a
previous posting) in the 6th- it starts slowly (in impact,
not tempo) but picks up steam as it progresses to a potent
finale. My 9ths are by Giulini (expansive and elegaic) and
Ancerl (songful and lighter in texture than most, a good
"alternative" reading).
I agree about Rattle in the 10th.
Happy hunting.
-Sol Siegel, Philadelphia, PA
---------------------------------------------------------
"It takes a village to raise a child- but it only
takes one idiot to burn down the village."
Simon Roberts
Vodnik (vod...@aol.com) wrote:
[snip]
: Szell's is a great 4th, but I like Abravanel on Vanguard
: even better- a fresh reading with a convincing "naive" feel
: and an ideal soprano soloist (Netania Davrath). I haven't
: seen a copy in a while, but it's still listed as being in
: print.
I'm glad to see someone else recommending Abravanel; in part because of
Davrath I think this is pretty much in a class by itself. (What ends up
sounding like naive rustic charm here sounds like amateurishness in the
rest of his cycle, though, I think.) Among more conventionally polished
performances, I think Colin Davis's recent recording is surprisingly good,
and vastly underrated; his soloist, Blasi, is wonderful.
Simon
George Murnu
Alain DAGHER wrote:
>
> The 6th by Barbirolli is as good as everyone says (much better in fact
> than his 5th which I find too slow and lacking in pulse at times).
>
> My personal favourite for this piece is Boulez/VPO on DG. Tremendous
> playing and recorded sound, and the performance is outstanding. People
> who say it lacks emotion and is too cold or rational have probably not
> listened to it attentively.
Monsieur Dagher, I thought you do not like the VPO!
Regards,
George Murnu
George Murnu
Charles Noble & Heather Blackburn wrote:
>
> I must say that I very much like the Abbado/VSO/DGG recording of the 9th,
> and (oddly enough) Boulez's 6th on DGG w/ Cleveland (I also like the 7th).
> I must say that I'm swayed by the extraordinary playing of the VSO
Do you mean the VPO - the Vienna Philharmonic - since the VSO is the
Vienna Symphony ( Wiener Symphoniker ), which is not quite in the same
class as the VPO, although they have improved tremendously since the
fifties.
George Murnu
Tony Movshon wrote:
>
> stevt...@rocketmail.com writes:
> >This is what I have so far, and I am extremely
> >pleased with them:
> >
> >1: Kubelik
> >2: Klemperer
> >3: Horenstein
> >4: will get Szell
> >5: Barbirolli
> >7: Abbado
> >8: Solti
> >10: will get Rattle
>
>
> >However, I am stuck with what to get for 6 and 9. I've read great things
> >about Barbirolli's 6 and 9 but for some reason I do not want to get him
> >again since I already have his 5th...and a great 5th it is, too. For the
> >6th, I have heard Bernstein/DG, Kubelik, Szell, and von Karajan and I
> >really like the Karajan--it seems to have the perfect pace for the first
> >movement.
>
> As others have noted, Barbirolli's 6th is *very* slow, especially in
> the first movement. I personally think it's a wonderful performance,
> but I am not sure it makes a good recommendation for a first purchase,
> for which something a little more middle-of-the-road would be in order.
> I do not find Karajan's 6th to be offensive, but it is not among my
> favorites. To borrow Simon's word of the week, it's undercharacterized
> compared to Bernstein/NY (Sony), Segerstam (Chandos), and Solti (Decca
> import only, NAS in the US).
Isn't Solti available in the US as part of the complete set at budget
price?
Paul Kintzele
For the 6th, I haven't heard nearly enough recordings to give an overview,
but since some have mentioned Boulez's recent account, I wanted to say
that although the Boulez is good, in a side-by-side comparison with my
current favorite, Abbado/CSO on DG, the Abbado consistently came out
ahead, with more urgent rhythms, incisive accents, and flashes of insight
than the Boulez. The only (minor) problem is that the Abbado/CSO Mahler
6th is a two disc set, while the Boulez is conveniently on a single cd.
For the 9th, I keep coming back to Bernstein's 1960s version with the NYPO
on Sony (it comes with very fine renditions of the 7th and the Adagio from
the 10th, by the way). Giulini/CSO would also be a clear top choice for
me, but there is an annoying flutter that comes and goes when the violas
and cellos play above a certain volume; I inquired about this flaw on this
newsgroup a while ago (hoping that the cd I purchased was merely
defective), and I learned that this sonic blemish goes all the way back to
the recording sessions, so it will be on any cd of it that you buy.
Perhaps the intermittent fluttering won't bother you (it's only really
noticeable though headphones, but once I noticed it, like the proverbial
dripping faucet it became extrememly distracting), but you should be aware
of it before you buy. It is a gorgeously played, magnificent performance,
but that makes this flaw all the more disappointing for me.
I've had a chance, while on vacation, to go through some of my old LPs,
and I was just listening to a Mahler 9th from Wyn Morris and the
Symphonica of London. I really like this recording; does anyone know if
it has been issued on cd?
A couple of Mahler 9th disappointments: Barbirolli (on EMI) and Karajan
(the analog studio recording on DG Double, not the digital live recording,
which I haven't heard yet). I really wanted to like these performances,
but they didn't cohere for me; they failed to find the anguished intimacy
that is essential in this symphony.
Paul K.
BrtherJohn
In article <68k5ov$df5$6...@netnews.upenn.edu>, si...@dept.english.upenn.edu
(Simon Roberts) writes:
I thought you meant "nasty" in a negative way. (London should have released
this on a single disc here in the States - outside of the boxed set. Jeers to
them!)
Brthe...@aol.com (John Blair)
Tony Duggan
stevt...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> However, I am stuck with what to get for 6 and 9. I've read great things
> about Barbirolli's 6 and 9 but for some reason I do not want to get him
> again since I already have his 5th...and a great 5th it is, too. (CUT)
> which one should I go on ahead and buy?
I have written before about my feelings against the Barbirolli
Sixth and also my regret in this. JB is a conductor I rate
above almost all. I love his Elgar, Vaughan Williams and
Sibelius to name only three. There are recordings by him I
regard as near definitive. He was the first conductor I ever
saw live, so there is a special place in my affections for him
because of that. As Wolfgang Stresemann of the Berlin
Philharmonic wrote after JB's death, he was not a specialist,
he was "the heroic interpreter of heroic music". In Mahler he
is, for me, one of the four or five greatest. However, in the
Mahler Sixth....
Michael Kennedy came across a quotation by Bertrand Russell
in a notebook of Barbirolli's which he felt applies exactly
to JB's approach in Mahler:
"Nothing is achieved without passion, but underneath the passion
there should always be that large impersonal survey which sets
limits to actions that our passions inspire."
(I think that can just as well be applied to Jascha Horenstein
in Mahler also, BTW.) In Barbirolli's recording of the Sixth
Symphony, however, I feel it doesn't apply and it is because
I think that in the Sixth it needs to apply, maybe there more
than anywhere, that, with regret, I cannot be in sympathy with
Barbirolli in this work.
There is one sense in which I can *admire* his Sixth. He
knew the work probably better than many who have committed
it to tape, before or since. If he hadn't I doubt he would
have been able to conceive such a distinctive interpretation
or been able to deliver it with such unerring concentration. The
way it's held on course from first to last is an astounding
achievement. The problem is I disagree with the conclusions
he reached about how it should be delivered.
It comes back to that quotation of Russell. The key words are
"that large impersonal survey". I think JB is too involved in
the Sixth and forgets "that large impersonal survey", and his
over-involvement leads him to make, especially in the first
movement and the scherzo, too slow a decision regarding tempo
which then adds even greater emotional weight to everything else.
Once before I used the analogy of an Edwardian actor-manager
hamming Shakespeare. For me, the Barbirolli Sixth is a little
like that.
So why do I feel the Sixth must have more of "that large
impersonal survey" than, say, the Fifth ? It's because I feel
the Sixth is Mahler's first truly Modernist work where form is at
least as important as substance and where means are at least as
important as ends. I think the clue to this is the strict use of
the classical form by Mahler (down to the exposition repeat) and
that any interpretation that - like Barbirolli or Bernstein or
Sinopoli or (in spades) Tennstedt - undermines this, misses the
point.
This Barbirolli recording is brutal. Even the lighter and
more hopeful sections that some conductors use to lighten
the performance here seem clouded with dark forebodings.
I feel that if the lighter moments do not shine out as such,
we have little with which to compare the darker ones. As in
classical tragedy, to appreciate how far the hero falls we
must know where he fell from; to appreciate what the hero
loses we must understand what he had to lose. In Barbirolli
it is almost ALL fall and loss, so the power of the fall and
power of the loss is blunted. That "large impersonal survey"
would deal with this and would be in keeping with the classical
form of the whole.
Interestingly there is a live Barbirolli Sixth on Arkadia.
The sound is truly abominable and yet it is that little bit
tighter in tempo and less intense in expression.
You may wonder which recording of the Sixth I always turn to.
I possess Karajan, Abaddo, Horenstein, Bernstein (CBS), Szell,
Boulez and Nanut. (I learned the work from the Adler.) but
recently I have bought the new one by Thomas Sanderling and
this one, for me, is, as far as any Mahler can be, THE ONE.
To save bandwidth I will post my opinions on that seperately.
--
Tony Duggan (Staffordshire, UK)
scri...@dial.pipex.com
Tony Duggan
stevt...@rocketmail.com wrote:
> However, I am stuck with what to get for 6 and 9. I've read great things
> about Barbirolli's 6 and 9 but for some reason I do not want to get him
> again since I already have his 5th...and a great 5th it is, too. (CUT)
> which one should I go on ahead and buy?
My advice is to go and buy Thomas Sanderling. I'm going to take some
time with this since this recording is never mentioned here.
What I'm going to say first applies to me alone, though it may be of
interest before I get down to being as objective as I can. We all
approach each Mahler Symphony with different ideas, expectations
and requirements on how it should go. Having now heard this new
Thomas Sanderling Sixth (RS 953-0186) many times *this* Mahlerite
now feels like Howard Carter must have felt when he glimpsed the
tomb behind the wall. At last I may have found "the one" but I
hope others go out and buy it because I really would like to hear
other opinions.
I've always found the fact that the Sixth was premiered in Essen
appropriate. Essen in the early part of the century was the cradle
of German heavy industry. Here were the foundries and factories
that put iron into The Iron Chancellor and would build the guns
that would provide the blood to his "blood and iron" when they
were fired in World War One, the cultural pre-echo of whose
cataclysm eight years later the work seems to partly illustrate.
All those driving militaristic rhythms, mechanistic percussion
and harsh-edged contrasts have always seemed to me to share aural
kinship with the place where the work was first heard. This
symphony is a twentieth century work. It breathes as much the
same air as Krupp as it does Freud and its concerns are those
of our time because so much of our time was formed then, as much
in the furnaces of Essen as the consulting rooms of Vienna. The
work's classical structure, for me, also implies the detachment
demanded by classical tragedy and any performance that is going
to make me appreciate its Modernism has to take this into account
and strip Mahler of nineteenth century sonorities and folk memories,
contrast the sound of the Fifth and project, as though on a stage,
a bitter, dark, unforgiving elegy that opens out the tragedy that
is Mahler's and makes it universal, but at which it is also held
at one remove to give the tragedy its universality and contemporary
elevance. I think Sanderling pulls this off though I remain aware
my view of how this is to be achieved is not universally shared.
In an interview Sanderling is keen to stress his tempo for the first
movement is dictated by the marking "Heftig, aber markig" to bring
out a combative, "Sturm und Drang", martial tone. So he's on the
slower, grimmer end of the tempo scale. Not as slow as Barbirolli,
but steady enough to make every note tell without dragging. Which
is just as well because when the "Alma theme" is reached one is
aware of a broadening, with the lady emerging with greater ardour.
I like the contrast this gives to the movement because, though the
theme is treated with warmth, Sanderling doesn't overheat the emotion,
passing it as the second subject in a sonata form. He's helped by
reining back the brass at particular points, especially in the quicker
section. Note too the bass drum and celeste - clear without being
obtrusive. When the exposition repeat is over, the return to the
martial material is more grim and bitter and I like the way Sanderling
makes his side drummer sound like a second cousin to the one in
Nielsen's Fifth. Only Adler got the side drummer to play like a
military man, but Sanderling is close.
Too often the first cowbells episode is a signal for the conductor
to drop his guard and introduce warmth and lyricism where sharpness
of focus is needed. That this is a contemplative moment there is
no doubt. Fortunately, Sanderling's approach is to suggest a very
cold contemplation. The shimmers of the strings around the distant
bells and cor-anglais suggest the rarefied atmosphere of the high
alps where the air bites the back of the throat and what ever
sun that shines has no warmth in it.
By now the martial quality to the main material has been established
so when it resumes it comes as no surprise. An even more pleasant
surprise awaits in the coda because Sanderling resists the temptation
of rushing to the end, sticking to his tempo after the great explosion
of percussion. I always think to take the coda too fast, as Karajan
does for example, suggests hysteria where we need optimism. Our
hero is still nominally in control of events, or believes he is,
and this is what Sanderling gives us.
The Scherzo under Sanderling is, in his words, "a horror
movement": a Danse Macabre with prominent xylophone and shrieking
woodwinds within the same steady tempo as the first movement. In
fact Sanderling seems anxious to make us hear the Scherzo as the
first movement's counterpart and justify the placing of this
movement second. In his interview he also makes reference to
this movement showing Mahler feeling "whipped, chased, prosecuted
... as we know, in Vienna his position was under threat, and his
basic situation was just the same even in New York... his whole
life was under threat." (Essen's relentless steam hammers and
glowing smithies are what I was made to think of too !) What
Sanderling doesn't do is what Tennstedt, among others, does and
make rhetorical jabs and jerks that might thrill on first hearing
but soon become tiresome on repeated hearings and detract from the
classical detachment the piece demands to make the real tragedy
tell. By now Sanderling has established he's of the non -
interventionist school and that will become even more obvious
in the third movement. I did like the huge smash from the tam-tam
just before the music ratchets down to final, uneasy rest where
the dying woodwinds are at their most foul and poisonous.
The Andante maintains Sanderling's detachment by not giving in to
sentimentality. Tempo-wise here is a true Andante with none of the
consolation offered by a slower tempo. In my experience only Szell's
recording is quicker overall. That isn't to say there is no emotion,
but the emotion arises from the way the movement fits with the
overall scheme and stresses the symphonic argument. Sanderling
believes this himself. In his interview he sees this movement as
the "other side" of Mahler's life to that depicted in the Scherzo.
If, for Sanderling, the Scherzo represents Mahler "whipped, chased,
prosecuted ", the Andante becomes, to quote him again, "summer at
Toblach, and again music of withdrawal, escape from reality. It
speaks to us very directly of nature, God, the world, and again I
view this as a sublimation of Mahler's entire personal aesthetic.
The things of which he speaks are of the eternal reality, and not
of the kind of society and the pressures he had left behind him in
Vienna." So Sanderling means us to contrast the Andante with what
has gone immediately before and, in my view, connect it also with
the cowbells episode of the first movement because Sanderling also
says in his interview that episode is "essential to the dramaturgy
...a moment of retreat from the world, and a detachment from
actuality. The same sublimation is found in the Andante." He
further weaves the symphonic structure together with this idea
and provides the Andante with the role of a more extended interlude
of contemplation which would, I think, not work if the movement
was taken too slowly or given too much dramatic weight.
But for me it's his delivery of the last movement that clinches
this recording's worth. The other movements were leading to the
kind of interpretation I was hoping for but even I found myself
surprised by how satisfied I was with it. I think what is wanted
in the last movement is a drama in which tragedy is measured by
the degree to which we are able to see how far the hero falls,
otherwise we have no reference for how bereft he is going to be.
This relates back to the circumspection of classical tragedy
because only by seeing, for example, Oedipus "in the round", at
the height of his power, are we able to comprehend the depth of
his fate as Tragedy overwhelms him. For the last movement of
the Sixth this means hearing the movement as 1) firmly attached
symphonically to the previous three to give "framing" and 2)
within itself an allowance by the conductor of what small
moments of light there are to come through before being
snuffed out.
For all that the fourth movement can be said to be, as the liner
notes author Quirino Principe has it, a depiction of "total chaos"
it is in fact strictly organised as sonata form signalled by the
violins' upward sweep, the fate motif and Floros's "major-minor
seal". This is then followed by passages for bells. In each case
Sanderling conveys a sense of arrival and a feeling that here are
"way points" that give the movement symphonic coherence and further
relate it to the wider argument by making the bell passages recall
the sound-world of the Andante and the cow bells passages in the
first movement. The intention seems to be to take us into the
mind of the hero. Then in passages of release and energy, like
that between the first two hammer blows where the "whip" is deployed
for the one and only time, there is a real sense of buoyancy.
Here is a man of action, "in full leaf and flower" as Alma described
Mahler. It's as though he is trying to escape his fate and that
there still exists the chance of salvation. When the second hammer
blow comes the sense of negation is enhanced. The same applies
to the towering passage up to the place of the last blow where
among the roaring brass and hammering percussion a slight quickening
suggests desperation now: that this is the last throw of the
dice, all or nothing, and Sanderling also brings out once more
the martial quality in the music along with a wonderful ear for
balance. You can really hear everything, especially what the busy
strings are doing. The hammer blows themselves are nothing special
sound-wise in this recording. But such is the preparation that
what we get is all that's needed to make Mahler's point and where
the third blow should be it's as if exhaustion brings the world
crashing down.
The coda is slow, solemn and withdrawn - as much elegy as requiem
- a true fermata stressing loss as well as despair. When the
final crash comes there is a restraint observed that doesn't
make you jump like so often and Sanderling manages to get the
slightest decrescendo into the timpani's final statement. I
always feel Barbirolli spoils the ending by getting his timpanist
to underline each note rhetorically and have the final pizzicato
note follow a pause. I think the damage to our hero has already
done by this point and the final sounds we hear should be those of
an inevitable coup de grace.
A great performance will shine through the worst of sound but
it's always good when the recording is of top quality and suited
to the kind of performance it records, as it does here. The
balance reminded me of the Barbirolli EMI: a close-up sound
with woodwind well in the picture. There is some reverberation,
just enough, but the heavy brass and percussion emerge clean,
shorn of acoustic air. It's like sitting in the middle of the
stalls of the hall. There's no glare on the sound, though, so
the ear is never tired and there's no overloading, making every
detail clear. In fact it's an experience to zero the ear into
one section, one instrumental line, and hear it clearly but in
context. It's also good to be able to hear when woodwind and
brass sound together and for the bass drum to make you shudder
without making you jump. It isn't a pretty sound, but is that
what we want ?
The St. Petersburg Philharmonic is a great orchestra and I was
aware of a huge corporate tradition being drawn on. But they're
not generally known as a Mahler orchestra and don't Russian
orchestras sound different ? If you're expecting the wobbly
horns and blowsy woodwind of old Melodya, forget it. The horns
are pure toned, without a moment's vibrato, and the woodwind at
turns plangent then spiteful and that's all suited to the
conception of the piece and its execution by Sanderling. If the
trumpets and trombones have about them the bite of Shostakovitch
in Socialist Realism mode this only adds to the industrial
overtones I find so appropriate. Nothing in this work seems
beyond these players. Every towering climax has about it
an impression of security. If they haven't been thought of
as a Mahler orchestra in the past, perhaps they should be after
this. This is the first of a complete cycle, after all.
Tony Duggan, scri...@dial.pipex.com
Staffordshire, UK.
Neil
On Thu, 01 Jan 1998 21:02:29 -0600, stevt...@rocketmail.com wrote:
>However, I am stuck with what to get for 6 and 9. I've read great things
>about Barbirolli's 6 and 9 but for some reason I do not want to get him
>again since I already have his 5th...and a great 5th it is, too.
I'd get Barbirolli's ninth. It may not possibly plum the depths as Horenstein
does, or carry the composer authority of Walter or Klemperer, but really in
terms of playing, recording and above all interpretation you could not go wrong.
as for the sixth, this is tricky. I like Horenstein's Stockholm recording very
much for its clear headed, unhystrionic approach. The playing is not top league
though but the recording quality is good: probably an excellent initial choice
along side Barbirolli.
------------------------------------------------------------
Neil Tingley (at home) |http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/music
mu...@netlink.co.uk |Furtwaengler, Sokolov, GH Gould, links
"mozart died too late rather than too soon." !! G Gould
Simon Roberts
Paul Kintzele (kint...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu) wrote:
: For the 6th, I haven't heard nearly enough recordings to give an overview,
: but since some have mentioned Boulez's recent account, I wanted to say
: that although the Boulez is good, in a side-by-side comparison with my
: current favorite, Abbado/CSO on DG, the Abbado consistently came out
: ahead, with more urgent rhythms, incisive accents, and flashes of insight
: than the Boulez. The only (minor) problem is that the Abbado/CSO Mahler
: 6th is a two disc set, while the Boulez is conveniently on a single cd.
I think you're being very kind to M. Boulez; I've never heard a more
polite performance of the first movement....
[snip]
: I've had a chance, while on vacation, to go through some of my old LPs,
: and I was just listening to a Mahler 9th from Wyn Morris and the
: Symphonica of London. I really like this recording; does anyone know if
: it has been issued on cd?
Yes, it is; it's on IMP 1025, with Beethoven's Grosse Fugue as the filler.
(The 5 and 8 from this series, both favorites of mine, are also on CD.)
Simon
drgonzopipeline<dot>com
kint...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Paul Kintzele) wrote:
>I've had a chance, while on vacation, to go through some of my old LPs,
>and I was just listening to a Mahler 9th from Wyn Morris and the
>Symphonica of London. I really like this recording; does anyone know if
>it has been issued on cd?
Yes it has, on IMP/Carlton - I remain in the tiny minority who put this
performance at the top of the heap with Walter/VPO and Horenstein/LSO.
Poignant and powerful, with more of an impact than far more polished
performances. The glossy Karajan recordings fail to float my boat (though
I like Karajan's 6th and Das Lied).
The Doc
Gonzo Journal
http://www.pipeline.com/~drgonzo/
AVIKG
In article <34b2c0c1...@news.demon.co.uk>, mu...@netlink.co.uk (Neil )
writes:
>I'd get Barbirolli's ninth. It may not possibly plum the depths as
>Horenstein
does,
as for the sixth, this is tricky. I like Horenstein's
>Stockholm recording very
much for its clear headed, unhystrionic approach.
>The playing is not top league
though but the recording quality is good:
>probably an excellent initial choice
along side Barbirolli.
BOTH GOOD CHOICES.
avik-gms
AVIKG
In article <68lis4$r53$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, si...@dept.english.upenn.edu
(Simon Roberts) writes:
>I've had a chance, while on vacation, to go through some of my old LPs,
: and
>I was just listening to a Mahler 9th from Wyn Morris and the
: Symphonica of
>London. I really like this recording; does anyone know if
: it has been
>issued on cd?
Yes, it is; it's on IMP 1025, with Beethoven's Grosse Fugue
>as the filler.
(The 5 and 8 from this series, both favorites of mine, are
>also on CD.)
Simon
thanks for letting us know.
good recordings.
avik-gms
AVIKG
In article <68lmq9$g...@camel20.mindspring.com>, drgonzo<at>pipeline<dot>com
(Doctor Gonzo) writes:
>Subject: Re: Mahler 6,9: Barbirolli vs. Karajan and
>others...
From: drgonzo<at>pipeline<dot>com (Doctor Gonzo)
Date: Sat, 03 Jan
>1998 15:49:26 GMT
kint...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Paul Kintzele) wrote:
>I've
>had a chance, while on vacation, to go through some of my old LPs,
>and I was
>just listening to a Mahler 9th from Wyn Morris and the
>Symphonica of London.
>I really like this recording; does anyone know if
>it has been issued on cd?
>
Yes it has, on IMP/Carlton - I remain in the tiny minority who put
>this
performance at the top of the heap with Walter/VPO and
>Horenstein/LSO.
Poignant and powerful, with more of an impact than far more
>polished
performances.
The Doc
Gonzo
you are NOT "in a tiny minority". many of our MAHLERfanatics agree with you.
your taste is exceptional. you should move here and ad to our ranks or form
your own society in ealing-broadway. you brits could use one.
avik-gms
>Journal
http://www.pipeline.com/~drgonzo/
Alain DAGHER
George Murnu (gmu...@erols.com) wrote:
: Alain DAGHER wrote:
: > My personal favourite for this piece is Boulez/VPO on DG. Tremendous
: > playing and recorded sound, and the performance is outstanding. People
: > who say it lacks emotion and is too cold or rational have probably not
: > listened to it attentively.
: Monsieur Dagher, I thought you do not like the VPO!
I said: "except when Boulez is conducting". The VPO is still a
ravishing orchestra.
I would love to hear them with Simon Rattle.
AVIKG
In article <68oboc$7...@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>, al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca (Alain
DAGHER) writes:
> said: "except when Boulez is conducting". The VPO is still a
ravishing
>orchestra.
you like the vpo when boulez in conducting or when he does not? how do you feel
about it with bernstein?
avik-gms
Jack Fergus
It might be described as "polite". I prefer "not burdened by the near-hysterical
baggage the majority of conductors feel it necessary to carry along when
performing this symphony".
vive Boulez
SK
Simon Roberts wrote:
> Paul Kintzele (kint...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu) wrote:
> : For the 6th, I haven't heard nearly enough recordings to give an overview,
> : but since some have mentioned Boulez's recent account, I wanted to say
> : that although the Boulez is good, in a side-by-side comparison with my
> : current favorite, Abbado/CSO on DG, the Abbado consistently came out
> : ahead, with more urgent rhythms, incisive accents, and flashes of insight
> : than the Boulez. The only (minor) problem is that the Abbado/CSO Mahler
> : 6th is a two disc set, while the Boulez is conveniently on a single cd.
>
> I think you're being very kind to M. Boulez; I've never heard a more
> polite performance of the first movement....
>
> Simon
Tony Duggan
Alain DAGHER wrote:
> I said: "except when Boulez is conducting". The VPO is still a
> ravishing orchestra.
>
> I would love to hear them with Simon Rattle.
Wait a little longer and you will. Rattle and the VPO are to tape
Mahler's Ninth live in Vienna for EMI this year, 60 years since Walter
did so in the same hall. I heard the tape of their concert performance
from last year and mightily impressive it was.
David M. Cook
On 2 Jan 1998 04:02:15 GMT, Simon Roberts <si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote:
>frequency range. (Unfortunately, those of us who want the Metamorphosen
>are stuck with an otherwise redundant, space-wasting duplication.)
The Metamorphosen is also coupled with Schoenberg's Pelleas and Melisande on
a single CD, EMI 65078
Dave Cook
AVIKG
In article <34B07...@dial.pipex.com>, Tony Duggan <scri...@dial.pipex.com>
writes:
>Wait a little longer and you will. Rattle and the VPO are to tape
Mahler's
>Ninth live in Vienna for EMI this year.
when is it coming out?
avik=gms
AVIKG
In article <34B00521...@cableol.co.uk>, Jack Fergus
<stev...@cableol.co.uk> writes:
> think you're being very kind to M. Boulez; I've never heard a more
> polite
>performance of the first movement....
>
polite or politely dead?
avik-gms
George Murnu
Alain DAGHER wrote:
>
> George Murnu (gmu...@erols.com) wrote:
> : Alain DAGHER wrote:
>
> : > My personal favourite for this piece is Boulez/VPO on DG. Tremendous
> : > playing and recorded sound, and the performance is outstanding. People
> : > who say it lacks emotion and is too cold or rational have probably not
> : > listened to it attentively.
>
> : Monsieur Dagher, I thought you do not like the VPO!
>
> ravishing orchestra.
>
> I would love to hear them with Simon Rattle.
>
> Regards,
> "De la musique avant toute chose"
> Alain Dagher, M.D.
> Montreal Neurological Institute -Paul Verlaine
>
You certainly said so; sorry! However I do agree that the Sacher torte
is overrated!
Alain DAGHER
AVIKG (av...@aol.com) wrote:
: In article <68oboc$7...@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>, al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca (Alain
: DAGHER) writes:
: > said: "except when Boulez is conducting". The VPO is still a
: ravishing
: >orchestra.
: you like the vpo when boulez in conducting or when he does not? how do you feel
: about it with bernstein?
I like the VPO when Boulez conducts. They rise above their usual
corporatist profile.
I was referring to live performances (this was on another thread), but
I certainly like some of Bernstein's recording with the VPO.
Chloe Carter
> It might be described as "polite". I prefer "not burdened by the near-hysterical
> baggage the majority of conductors feel it necessary to carry along when
> performing this symphony".
>
> vive Boulez
>
> SK
Among present-day recordings, I find that Haitink is a nice
middle ground between the overly-restrained (Boulez) and the
overly-histrionic (SK doesn't provide names, but I can guess).
Abbado also is good here, as someone else has mentioned.
Purely on interpretation, I prefer Horenstein, though the
weaknesses of that recording are well-known.
- Chloe
Tony Duggan
Not been done yet so.......