Israeli Minister Denounces Barenboim
Frodo Bernstein
-
Friday, September 2, 2005
(09-02) 08:08 PDT JERUSALEM, Israel (AP) --
Israel's education minister on Friday denounced Daniel Barenboim as a
"real anti-Semite" after the conductor refused to grant an interview
to an Israel Army Radio reporter during a book launching because she
wore a military uniform.
The Jewish conductor was approached Thursday by reporter Dafna Arad
during a promotional event for a book he wrote with the late
Palestinian intellectual Edward Said.
Barenboim's snub outraged Education Minister Limor Livnat, who
denounced the conductor as "a real Jew-hater, a real anti-Semite."
Barenboim, who was born in Argentina and raised in Israel, has had
frequent spats with Israel's government. Last year, he angered
officials when he criticized the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza
as he accepted the prestigious Wolf Prize in a speech to Israel's
parliament.
Last month, Barenboim brought his West-Eastern Divan Orchestra,
comprised of musicians from Israel, the Palestinian territories and
neighboring Arab countries to the West Bank city of Ramallah for a
concert in memory of Said.
On Thursday, Arad tried to interview Barenboim at the book launch in a
hotel in the Jewish neighborhood of Yemin Moshe in western Jerusalem.
Arad was wearing her uniform, as is the custom for Army Radio
reporters still serving their mandatory military service.
"I wanted to interview Barenboim very much and to ask him about the
concert he conducted in Ramallah last week, about his musical vision
and more. But he wouldn't agree to talk to me, and started signing the
book. I insisted. Then he said he refused to be interviewed by a
soldier in a uniform and that he will agree to talk to me only if I
come to him in civilian clothes," Arad said on Army Radio.
She said when she protested that she had no choice but to wear the
uniform, Barenboim pulled on her epaulets and yelled at her.
Arad did not play tape of Barenboim's snub, but the conductor, in a
telephone interview with Army Radio on Friday, did not deny the
incident and defended his actions.
"Anti-Semitic? What is anti-Semitic about it? When I say that a
uniform should be worn to the right places and not to the wrong ones,
there is nothing anti-Semitic about it, there is no logic to this
claim," Barenboim said.
"I just thought that in this place, discussing a book written together
with a Palestinian, it shows lack of sensitivity."
Yuval Steinitz, chairman of parliament's Defense and Foreign Affairs
Committee, accused Barenboim of being ungrateful, saying Israel
"exists thanks to those who wear uniforms."
In 2001, Barenboim angered some Israelis by breaking an informal ban
in Israel on performing the works of Richard Wagner, Hitler's favorite
composer.
Barenboim is music director of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and
general music director of the Berlin Staatskapelle Orchestra.
dohg...@sympatico.ca
anti-Semites. Americans who oppose the invasion of Iraq are
unpatriotic. Will this mindless fascist blather ever cease?
JG
Ian Pace
<dohg...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1125680687.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> It's so very tiresome, Jews who are critical of Israeli are self-hating
> anti-Semites. Americans who oppose the invasion of Iraq are
> unpatriotic. Will this mindless fascist blather ever cease?
>
should all be sent to St Elizabeth's Hospital (if it still exists), where
Ezra Pound was interned (they would be better candidates for there).
Ian
Bob Harper
Seriously, I think calling Barenboim anti-Semitic is probably unhelpful;
calling him a useful idiot (in the Leninist sense) is much more
accurate. Add ingratitude to the list and you've just about got it covered.
Bob Harper
Matthew Fields
Sounds like the usual Reichwing assessment of a musician ahead of his time.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
dohg...@sympatico.ca
sense of the word (a sense that appears of late to have lapsed in
common usage): someone who is willing to endure the wrath and calumny
of the powerful in his country to follow his conscience.
JG
Frank Berger
There is something wrong with a Jew who won't grant in interview to a
soldier in the IDF. EVEN IF he doesn't agree with Israeli policy vis a vis
the Palestinians, there is something wrong with a Jew (or anyone else) who
sees the primary activity of the IDF as oppressing Palestinians as opposed
to defending Israel.
As there is something wrong with a person who AGREES not to play thanWagner
at the Israel Festival, and then violates the agreement and does it anyway.
It's called arrogance, at a minumum.
Ian Pace
<dohg...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1125686480....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
horrendous experiences of persecution they have suffered, feel a deep
empathy with other oppressed people. This runs much deeper than idle
nationalism.
Ian
bzuk...@phillynews.com
By taking it out on an enlisted person who was simply following
mandatory regulations by wearing her uniform?
I wouldn't call his actions in this case anti-Semitic, but I'd call
them obnoxious and exactly what he accused his "victim" of being,
insensitive. That would make him a hypocrite.
Barry
Ian Pace
"Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote in message
news:11hh7b7...@news.supernews.com...
>
> <dohg...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:1125680687.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> It's so very tiresome, Jews who are critical of Israeli are self-hating
>> anti-Semites. Americans who oppose the invasion of Iraq are
>> unpatriotic. Will this mindless fascist blather ever cease?
>>
>> JG
>>
>
> There is something wrong with a Jew who won't grant in interview to a
> soldier in the IDF.
He was prepared to, just not while they were wearing uniform. Read the
article.
Ian
Frank Berger
<dohg...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1125686480....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Presumably this definition of a patriot would extent to "radical West Bank
settlers?"
I thought not.
Frank Berger
"Ian Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> wrote in message
news:s21Se.5149$Ys5....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
How much intellect does it take to refuse to speak to a reporter on active
duty in the IDF, without whom there would be no Jews in Barenboim's little
orchestra.
Frank Berger
This remarl is completely off the point.
SG
"someone who is willing to endure the wrath and calumny of the powerful
in his country to follow his conscience"
Sure, yelling and pulling the epaulets of a woman reporter who's doing
her duty is a veeery "patriotic" gesture, not to mention a
peace-advancing, rational and courageous one. Just curious: if Mr.
Barenboim is so peace-loving and even-handed in his patriotic
universalism, did he ever try to get a bomb out of the hands of a
"palestinian" terrorist? Well, perhaps that he didn't do so is due to
the fact that among his newly-found friends, dissent is not met with
"wrath and calumny", but, inevitably and unhesitatingly, with
lynching/murdering the dissenter, no questions asked.
As for the reporter's so-called lack of sensitivity, I wonder how much
sensitivity toward Israelis did Mr. Barenboim show in his
well-publicized gestures.
Why am I not surprised that the usual rmcr Jew-baiters couldn't allow
another opportunity for provocation go unnoticed.
regards,
SG
Matthew Fields
As long as advocates of contraception are labelled mass-murderers, no,
it won't.
MW
activity of the IDF as oppressing Palestinians." He may have
recognized that being photographed or associated with a member of the
armed forces would be counterproductive with the work he does.
The interview itself- had it happened- could also have been a stage for
embarrassing him.
If you can cite DB saying that he sees the IDF in that way, I'd believe
you have a point, but his actions aren't enough to nail things down, as
far as I can tell.
dohg...@sympatico.ca
"patriots/chauvinists" who tend to be even more xenophobic and racist
than their own right wing governments.
JG
Frank Berger
"MW" <tint...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125687944.9...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
"She said when she protested that she had no choice but to wear the
uniform, Barenboim pulled on her epaulets and yelled at her."
Does this help "nail things down" a little?
dohg...@sympatico.ca
"Presumably this definition of a patriot would extent to "radical West
Bank
settlers?"
Proponents of the illegal settlements in the West Bank are
dohg...@sympatico.ca
uniform, Barenboim pulled on her epaulets and yelled at her."
I suppose she'll have to sue him, won't she? I mean, really, who gives
a flying you-know-what.
JG
Bob Harper
> In article <ve-dnfObEcw...@comcast.com>,
> Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>dohg...@sympatico.ca wrote:
>>
>>>It's so very tiresome, Jews who are critical of Israeli are self-hating
>>>anti-Semites. Americans who oppose the invasion of Iraq are
>>>unpatriotic. Will this mindless fascist blather ever cease?
>>>
>>>JG
>>>
>>
>>Not as long as you keep spouting it.
>>
>>Seriously, I think calling Barenboim anti-Semitic is probably unhelpful;
>> calling him a useful idiot (in the Leninist sense) is much more
>>accurate. Add ingratitude to the list and you've just about got it covered.
>
>
>
>
Ah, another voice of moderation.
Bob Harper
Frank Berger
<dohg...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1125689009.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
There's no basis for assuming that most Jewish West Bank settlers are
xenophobic or racist. That statement itself is racist (in the loose sense).
Legal or not, it's a land grab. The Israeli/Palestinian dispute is almost
entirely over land, not race/religion/culture, etc.
Frank Berger
<dohg...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1125689157....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Apparently you care enough about these matters to crawl out from beneath
your rock whenever there is an Israel-bashing opportunity.
Tom Deacon
On 9/2/05 2:43 PM, in article 11hh7b7...@news.supernews.com, "Frank
Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
I am glad that it is "at a minimum".
TD
Matthew Fields
dohg...@sympatico.ca
xenophobic or racist."
Nonsense. I quite specifically referred to "proponents" of West Bank
settlements, not to the settlers themselves. Some of them may well be
racist, I grant you that. "Pawns" might be a better term.
JG
dohg...@sympatico.ca
"Apparently you care enough about these matters to crawl out from
beneath
your rock whenever there is an Israel-bashing opportunity."
I don't see how this petty slander advances your argument. But you
are predictable, I allow you that.
It may interest you to know that I am far from an unequivocal proponent
of all things Barenboim. For example, as I have said here before, the
idea that Wagner should be played before Israeli audiences (ipso facto
Holocaust survivors) is repugnant and horrifying.
JG
Frank Berger
"Tom Deacon" <non...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:BF3E2243.9B5A%non...@yahoo.com...
Thank you for pointing out the error.
Frank Berger
<dohg...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1125691438.5...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Apparently I write in one language in you read in another. And/or
vice/versa.
dohg...@sympatico.ca
even-handed in his patriotic universalism, did he ever try to get a
bomb out of the hands of a
"palestinian" terrorist?"
One might just as well ask whether you have ever tried to disarm an
Israeli tank?
But let's not get too exercised over the matter. Once Mr. Bush and
his idiot coterie have put the US economy completely into a coffin, a
day that cannot be too far off, Israel's mighty military will
undoubtedly begin to languish. Then, we can hope, the Israeli
government will begin to negotiate in earnest with the Palestinian
people.
JG
Sacqueboutier
Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> wrote:
Odd that he should shun the Israeli military, without whom there would be no
Israel left. The lady is a journalist. That she was wearing a uniform is
immaterial to the situation. She in the military and she should be in
uniform when doing her job. He was just using the situation to show his
utter disdain for the military that makes Israel possible.
--
Don Patterson
Trombonist
Arranger/Copyist
"The President's Own"
United States Marine Band
SG
dohg...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> Samir writes: "Just curious: if Mr. Barenboim is so peace-loving and
> even-handed in his patriotic universalism, did he ever try to get a
> bomb out of the hands of a
> "palestinian" terrorist?"
>
> One might just as well ask whether you have ever tried to disarm an
> Israeli tank?
Israeli tanks are doing a pretty good, if exceedingly cautious, job at
defending the little Jewish state, that regardless of the wishes of the
recycled antisemites of the left, masquerading their ancestral
Jew-hatred under fashionable rethorics. So I see no reason to disarm
them, as if I could or I wished. But the subject wasn't this, but Mr.
Barenboim, and the question wasn't what I should do with an Israeli
tank, but when did Mr. Barenboim take on REAL palestinian extremism,
the way he so "courageously" and "patriotically" took on the "Israeli
extremism", embodied in a polite lady reporter who, imagine the
chutzpah, dared to wear the uniform of her country.
As for your wishes for the Jewish people to become defenseless once
again in front of the Paces and Grants everywhere, keep dreaming. It
doesn't cost nothing and it ain't hurting nobody.
regards,
SG
Ian Pace
"Sacqueboutier" <don_...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BF3E38C5.91B7%don_...@comcast.net...
Hamas member in uniform.
Ian
alanwa...@aol.com
Frodo Bernstein wrote:
> Israeli Minister Denounces Barenboim
> -
> Friday, September 2, 2005
>
> (09-02) 08:08 PDT JERUSALEM, Israel (AP) --
>
> Israel's education minister on Friday denounced Daniel Barenboim as a
> "real anti-Semite" after the conductor refused to grant an interview
> to an Israel Army Radio reporter during a book launching because she
> wore a military uniform.
>
> The Jewish conductor was approached Thursday by reporter Dafna Arad
> during a promotional event for a book he wrote with the late
> Palestinian intellectual Edward Said.
>
> Barenboim's snub outraged Education Minister Limor Livnat, who
> denounced the conductor as "a real Jew-hater, a real anti-Semite."
>
> Barenboim, who was born in Argentina and raised in Israel, has had
> frequent spats with Israel's government. Last year, he angered
> officials when he criticized the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza
> as he accepted the prestigious Wolf Prize in a speech to Israel's
> parliament.
>
> Last month, Barenboim brought his West-Eastern Divan Orchestra,
> comprised of musicians from Israel, the Palestinian territories and
> neighboring Arab countries to the West Bank city of Ramallah for a
> concert in memory of Said.
>
> On Thursday, Arad tried to interview Barenboim at the book launch in a
> hotel in the Jewish neighborhood of Yemin Moshe in western Jerusalem.
> Arad was wearing her uniform, as is the custom for Army Radio
> reporters still serving their mandatory military service.
>
> "I wanted to interview Barenboim very much and to ask him about the
> concert he conducted in Ramallah last week, about his musical vision
> and more. But he wouldn't agree to talk to me, and started signing the
> book. I insisted. Then he said he refused to be interviewed by a
> soldier in a uniform and that he will agree to talk to me only if I
> come to him in civilian clothes," Arad said on Army Radio.
>
> She said when she protested that she had no choice but to wear the
> uniform, Barenboim pulled on her epaulets and yelled at her.
>
> telephone interview with Army Radio on Friday, did not deny the
> incident and defended his actions.
>
> "Anti-Semitic? What is anti-Semitic about it? When I say that a
> uniform should be worn to the right places and not to the wrong ones,
> there is nothing anti-Semitic about it, there is no logic to this
> claim," Barenboim said.
>
> "I just thought that in this place, discussing a book written together
> with a Palestinian, it shows lack of sensitivity."
>
> Yuval Steinitz, chairman of parliament's Defense and Foreign Affairs
> Committee, accused Barenboim of being ungrateful, saying Israel
> "exists thanks to those who wear uniforms."
>
> In 2001, Barenboim angered some Israelis by breaking an informal ban
> in Israel on performing the works of Richard Wagner, Hitler's favorite
> composer.
>
> Barenboim is music director of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and
> general music director of the Berlin Staatskapelle Orchestra.
If you are a journalist and wear a uniform, I can't personally see how
you can be a journalist. Others may be able to explain that.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Count of Warwick
anti-Israeli attitude?
Strange behaviour indeed from "enlightened" media.
I smell a rat
John Harrington
> Berger slanders:
>
> "Apparently you care enough about these matters to crawl out from
> beneath
> your rock whenever there is an Israel-bashing opportunity."
>
> I don't see how this petty slander advances your argument.
It doesn't, but a conscious lie on Berger's part, he hopes, may
discredit yours.
J
Sam
<alanwa...@aol.com> wrote:
>If you are a journalist and wear a uniform, I can't personally see how
>you can be a journalist. Others may be able to explain that.
Perhaps you should explain first why you can't be a journalist in
uniform. The questions she said she was going to ask him don't seem
to be of a military or even a political nature. He doesn't refuse to
play if there are some people in uniform attending a concert, does he?
John Harrington
> .... regardless of the wishes of the
> recycled antisemites of the left, masquerading their ancestral
Rmcr's voice of reason and moderation.
J
Count of Warwick
criticism of Israeli government actions was to obtain a soundbite
acceptable for the Palestinian cause? Wouldn't be the first time it's
happened...it won't be the last...
John Harrington
> On 2 Sep 2005 14:23:18 -0700, "alanwa...@aol.com"
> <alanwa...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >If you are a journalist and wear a uniform, I can't personally see how
> >you can be a journalist. Others may be able to explain that.
>
> Perhaps you should explain first why you can't be a journalist in
> uniform.
The duty of a soldier is to unquestionably follow orders, as long as
those orders are legal. The duty of a journalist is to ask questions.
The two roles are incompatible.
J
Count of Warwick
the orders of his/her/its boss?
I'd love to see the peccadillos of the gutter press "journos" published
for all and sundry to read...but, of course, I won't be allowed
to..."infringement of the media" will be the lame brained excuse not
to...
alanwa...@aol.com
>
>
> Odd that he should shun the Israeli military, without whom there would be no
> Israel left. The lady is a journalist. That she was wearing a uniform is
> immaterial to the situation. She in the military and she should be in
> uniform when doing her job. He was just using the situation to show his
> utter disdain for the military that makes Israel possible.
>
> --
> Don Patterson
> Trombonist
> Arranger/Copyist
> "The President's Own"
> United States Marine Band
I took my (American, VA 23306) wife to the US consulate in 1968 in
Prague to get her out. She was frightened and in tears. Know what the
American consulate said? "I am sorry, we cannot interfere in internal
matters."
She is an American citizen, born in Belle Haven (yes, I know it is a
VERY small town) but, personally, I have never forgiven America for
that.
It was ME who got her out of the country to safety, not "her" Nation
who didn't give a fuck about her at the time.
"We cannot interfere in internal affairs."
Times have changed eh?
Steven de Mena
<alanwa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1125698819.0...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>>
>> Odd that he should shun the Israeli military, without whom there would be
>> no
>> Israel left. The lady is a journalist. That she was wearing a uniform
>> is
>> immaterial to the situation. She in the military and she should be in
>> uniform when doing her job. He was just using the situation to show his
>> utter disdain for the military that makes Israel possible.
>>
>> --
>> Don Patterson
>> Trombonist
>> Arranger/Copyist
>> "The President's Own"
>> United States Marine Band
>
> I took my (American, VA 23306) wife to the US consulate in 1968 in
> Prague to get her out. She was frightened and in tears. Know what the
> American consulate said? "I am sorry, we cannot interfere in internal
> matters."
I am disappointed to hear they reacted like that.
Steve
Sacqueboutier
Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> wrote:
Um...the difference would that a Hamas member in uniform isn't there to
insure Israel's security and protect its very existence. In fact, his
mission would be quite the opposite.
Barenboim's refusal to give the interview shows his disdain the for the
very state of Israel itself.
Sacqueboutier
1125697460....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Count of Warwick"
<raff_ma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Aren't we into conspiracy theories?
Could it possibly be that, as a military jounalist...and yes they do exist
to produce newpapers and radio programs to military personnel...she is
required to wear her uniform while on duty? Perhaps, just perhaps, she was
to produce a program on Barenboim that might interest her audience.
Sacqueboutier
1125698037.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Count of Warwick"
<raff_ma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Still looking for conspiracies? Call Michael Moore.
Sacqueboutier
1125698819.0...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
"alanwa...@aol.com" <alanwa...@aol.com> wrote:
Um...sorry to hear of your wife's experience, but how did this get from
Barenboim and Israel to another "I hate the US" tirade?
That consulate was a wash. He should have done something, but that doesn't
mean all of America is to blame. Do you blame me as well?
Ian Pace
That's not the sole role of the IDF, anymore than the sole role of Hamas is
to ensure Palestinian security and protect the Palestinians' existence.
Ian
Matthew Fields
Sacqueboutier <don_...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>Odd that he should shun the Israeli military, without whom there would be no
>Israel left. The lady is a journalist. That she was wearing a uniform is
>immaterial to the situation. She in the military and she should be in
>uniform when doing her job. He was just using the situation to show his
>utter disdain for the military that makes Israel possible.
>
Alas, all we've got to go on is hearsay.
Matthew Fields
Sacqueboutier <don_...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On 9/2/05 5:44 PM, in article
>1125697460....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Count of Warwick"
><raff_ma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Why should she have been wearing a uniform, other than to garner an
>> anti-Israeli attitude?
>>
>> Strange behaviour indeed from "enlightened" media.
>>
>> I smell a rat
>>
>
>Aren't we into conspiracy theories?
>
>Could it possibly be that, as a military jounalist...and yes they do exist
>to produce newpapers and radio programs to military personnel...she is
>required to wear her uniform while on duty? Perhaps, just perhaps, she was
>to produce a program on Barenboim that might interest her audience.
But would you not, as a defender of such laws as the Constitution of the
United States, side with his right to remain silent?
Matthew Fields
It certainly does not live up to my standards for the USA. I am not
proud of such things, and if offered an opportunity to promote my
music by appearing to support them, I would decline--though some would
mistakenly call me anti-American for it.
Barenboim has a history of supporting the security of the State of
Israel through getting children to peacefully collaborate and form
lasting friendships across national boundaries (that's what the
West-East Divan is--a youth project). His approach to national
security is long-term and wide in scope. Before we accuse him of
traitorousness, let's recall that he merely declined an interview,
reportedly on the basis of the presense of a potentially potent symbol
which might be misunderstood by many. The reports of shouting and
pulling are hearsay. To draw further conclusions without consulting
him is unjust.
Matthew Fields
Sacqueboutier <don_...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On 9/2/05 5:53 PM, in article
>1125698037.4...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Count of Warwick"
><raff_ma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Maybe the reason for the "journo" being in uniform, knowing Barenboim's
>> criticism of Israeli government actions was to obtain a soundbite
>> acceptable for the Palestinian cause? Wouldn't be the first time it's
>> happened...it won't be the last...
>>
>
>Still looking for conspiracies? Call Michael Moore.
Very confused.
We have work to do. Bickering over people who assemble
all-too-hastily-forgotten headlines into a larger story doesn't advance
our job. Bickering over a guy's symbolism-sensitivity doesn't cut it.
Last week, the hurricane expanded to almost completely fill the Gulf
of Mexico. Call it an act of God if you will, or an unexpected natural
phenomenon, but dealing with it is more important for us here in the
States than any of this bickering. I'm hearing from friends at the
Houston Symphony that they're getting desparate calls for
suddenly-out-of-work musicians from further east... and I'm embarrassed
by the presense of Americans shooting at rescue helicopters, but I
recognize that the majority of stranded Mississippians, Louisianans,
and Alabamans are not of that ilk.
The Barenboim flap has no place on our radar.
Matthew Fields
Are there no acts by people in uniform of which you might be ashamed?
I think you may be judging the situation by leaping to conclusions.
Matthew Fields
>the orders of his/her/its boss?
You could argue that, and you'd be wrong. There area dozens of areas
of industry in which productivity depends fiercely upon individual
initiative and critical thinking, and The Boss's job is just to
lightly organize priorities and advocate for their underlings rather
than primarily formulating and issuing orders. Civilian engineering
works like that, for example--the day-to-day job is to invent things,
and individual inventiveness, initiative, and collaboration are
essential to productivity. I've worked in Defense Engineering, and
it's a curious bird, but even there, there's long stretches of time
when the job is all individual initiative, after which all the proper
forms are filled out.
Journalism is a different field, and is not subject to e.g. laws of
physics or characteristics of computations. Framed the way you framed
it--as the job of doing what you're told--it tends to become
propaganda, rather than fact-finding and reporting. Even when it's
just reporting, the choice of which facts to report can turn it into
propaganda (compare the amount of coverage of international events in
USA Today with what's in the Wall Street Journal for a sense of the
spectrum available on this side of the pond). Framed the other way
around--in terms of finding important facts and reporting them--journalism
simply cannot be a following-orders job, as that structure would be
ineffecient.
Tom Deacon
On 9/2/05 4:34 PM, in article
1125693283.5...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
"dohg...@sympatico.ca" <dohg...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Hmmmmmm.
Do you think that Israel will "languish" in the same way that Cuba has
languished after the withdrawal of Soviet support?
TD
Tom Deacon
On 9/2/05 5:13 PM, in article BF3E38C5.91B7%don_...@comcast.net,
"Sacqueboutier" <don_...@comcast.net> wrote:
Sounds to me as though he was quite right to do so.
TD
Tom Deacon
On 9/2/05 5:23 PM, in article
1125696198.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com,
"alanwa...@aol.com" <alanwa...@aol.com> wrote:
Indeed.
That would make Goebbels a "journalist"!!!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
TD
Tom Deacon
On 9/2/05 5:44 PM, in article
1125697460....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Count of Warwick"
<raff_ma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
So, I am not the only cynic here after all.
TD
Matthew Fields
Only if you say "My country is always right". As you've just shown,
you don't really believe that.
Tom Deacon
On 9/2/05 7:15 PM, in article BF3E5537.91E0%don_...@comcast.net,
"Sacqueboutier" <don_...@comcast.net> wrote:
You, Don, are just a citizen, not the legal representative of your country
and her citizens abroad.
The guy was a wimp. His government was a wimp. In that situation, at least.
TD
Bob Harper
> "Sacqueboutier" <don_...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:BF3E38C5.91B7%don_...@comcast.net...
>
>>Odd that he should shun the Israeli military, without whom there would be
>>no
>>Israel left. The lady is a journalist. That she was wearing a uniform is
>>immaterial to the situation. She in the military and she should be in
>>uniform when doing her job. He was just using the situation to show his
>>utter disdain for the military that makes Israel possible.
>>
>
> I see no essential difference if he were to refuse to give an interview to a
> Hamas member in uniform.
>
> Ian
>
>
Ah, but would he? But then, since when have Hamas members worn uniforms?
Bob Harper
Michael Haslam
> "Ian Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> wrote in message
> news:s21Se.5149$Ys5....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > <dohg...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> > news:1125686480....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >> No, Barenboim is not a "useful idiot", but a "patriot" in the best
> >> sense of the word (a sense that appears of late to have lapsed in
> >> common usage): someone who is willing to endure the wrath and calumny
> >> of the powerful in his country to follow his conscience.
> >>
> > And as such he follows a long line of Jewish intellectuals who, knowing
> > the horrendous experiences of persecution they have suffered, feel a deep
> > empathy with other oppressed people. This runs much deeper than idle
> > nationalism.
Most of the Jewish prophets of the OT were ill-treated by their Jewish
peers.
>
> How much intellect does it take to refuse to speak to a reporter on active
> duty in the IDF, without whom there would be no Jews in Barenboim's little
> orchestra.
Read the article again, concentrating on the bit where DB says why he
thought it would be inappropriate.
--
MJHaslam
Remove accidentals to obtain correct e-address
"Can't you show a little restraint?" - Dr. David Tholen
Count of Warwick
uniform would cause offense to that individual?
Wake up, will you!
Count of Warwick
> physics or characteristics of computations. Framed the way you framed
> it--as the job of doing what you're told--it tends to become
> propaganda, rather than fact-finding and reporting. Even when it's
> just reporting, the choice of which facts to report can turn it into
> propaganda (compare the amount of coverage of international events in
> USA Today with what's in the Wall Street Journal for a sense of the
> spectrum available on this side of the pond). Framed the other way
> around--in terms of finding important facts and reporting them--journalism
> simply cannot be a following-orders job, as that structure would be
> ineffecient.
You know when you are watching the news or reading a newspaper that
there are editors who force the journo to put a spin on a story just to
push his political party's line...
Jeffrey Meyer
> Why dress up in an army uniform to interview someone, knowing that
> uniform would cause offense to that individual?
>
to be the most powerful, nay beautiful, musical metaphor imaginable, it's
very essence being the antithesis of political and religious conflict.
Nothing, IMO, epitomizes Schiller's 'Alle Menschen...' line more accurately.
Having said that, I find it wonderfully ironic that beauty in music
occurs by virtue of contrast.
--
Jeffrey
Sacqueboutier
<non...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Who was president in 1968?
Sacqueboutier
1125737836.1...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Count of Warwick"
<raff_ma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
1. She is required to serve in the military.
2. She is a military journalist.
3. When military personnel are on the job, they are required to be in
uniform.
4. Barenboim undoubted knows this.
It's not that you don't get it. You just don't *want* to get it.
Tom Deacon
On 9/3/05 6:52 AM, in article BF3EF8C0.926C%don_...@comcast.net,
"Sacqueboutier" <don_...@comcast.net> wrote:
Johnson.
Who was being hounded out of office for the War in Vietnam. Let's say, he
had other things on his mind.
Not a wimp. But his government clearly was.
TD
Count of Warwick
Knowing Barenboim's stance, it was hardly likely to get a balanced
viewpoint.
Why send a "military" journo to do the interview? What is wrong with
an orthodox journo?
Tom Deacon
On 9/3/05 6:55 AM, in article BF3EF960.926D%don_...@comcast.net,
"Sacqueboutier" <don_...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 9/3/05 4:57 AM, in article
> 1125737836.1...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Count of Warwick"
> <raff_ma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Why dress up in an army uniform to interview someone, knowing that
>> uniform would cause offense to that individual?
>>
>> Wake up, will you!
>>
>
> 1. She is required to serve in the military.
That's the cross she has to bear, I suppose.
> 2. She is a military journalist.
This is a contradiction in terms. You're either one or the other, but not
both at the same time.
>
> 3. When military personnel are on the job, they are required to be in
> uniform.
Another cross.
> 4. Barenboim undoubted knows this.
I would imagine he does. And therefore he was right to refuse to talk to
her.
> It's not that you don't get it. You just don't *want* to get it.
No, we all get it, Don. We just don't "get" your take on this incident.
TD
Peter T. Daniels
An orthodox "journo" would be most likely to share the viewpoint of a
military "journo." A conservative or reform "journo" might not.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Matthew Fields
Sacqueboutier <don_...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On 9/3/05 4:57 AM, in article
>1125737836.1...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Count of Warwick"
><raff_ma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Why dress up in an army uniform to interview someone, knowing that
>> uniform would cause offense to that individual?
>>
>> Wake up, will you!
>>
>
>1. She is required to serve in the military.
>
>2. She is a military journalist.
>
>3. When military personnel are on the job, they are required to be in
>uniform.
>
>4. Barenboim undoubted knows this.
>
>It's not that you don't get it. You just don't *want* to get it.
>
5. Barenboim is under no obligation to grant interviews to anybody at all.
6. Being photographed with somebody visibly in the active military has
negative consequences for his peaceful mission.
It's not that you don't get it. You just have latched onto the idea
that Barenboim is in the wrong here, and you have accused him of
acting anti-Israel by exercising his right to not do an interview.
You just don't *want* to get it.
--
Matthew Fields
Not efficient enough to actually publish scoops as they happen. But
common enough in propaganda papers like USA Today.
Matthew Fields
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Sacqueboutier <don_...@comcast.net> op Sat, 03 Sep 2005 06:55:28
> -0400:
>
> > 1. She is required to serve in the military.
> >
> > 2. She is a military journalist.
> >
> > 3. When military personnel are on the job, they are required to be in
> > uniform.
> >
> > 4. Barenboim undoubted knows this.
>
> machine, probably not entirely unfounded, or at least not entirely
> unreasonable.
>
> 6. Barenboim is a free man.
Interesting that that appeared as reason Number Six.
Bob Harper
> 5. Barenboim is under no obligation to grant interviews to anybody at all.
>
> 6. Being photographed with somebody visibly in the active military has
> negative consequences for his peaceful mission.
>
> It's not that you don't get it. You just have latched onto the idea
> that Barenboim is in the wrong here, and you have accused him of
> acting anti-Israel by exercising his right to not do an interview.
> You just don't *want* to get it.
>
>
I suggest it's much simpler. Daniel Barenboim is a boor. A talented
boor, but a boor nonetheless.
Bob Harper
SG
I suggest it's much simpler. Daniel Barenboim is a boor. A talented
boor, but a boor nonetheless.
Bob Harper
----------------
I actually read with some amusement how the rude and stupid act of a
hypocritical bore (who is a "free man" only in the sense that in
Israel he can allow himself some idiotic liberties for which in Gaza he
would be lynched in five minutes) is being sold as some grand pacifist
gesture. You know, in the league with Albert Schweitzer ministering to
the poor of Africa or with the saints going voluntarily to serve in a
leper colony. On the other hand, you'll have to admit that people like
Barenboim or Shahak (the latter having been another well-known lunatic
hating his people and loved by Jew-haters) deserve their admirers.
Another amusing thing is to notice how self-important and
self-righteous Barenboim acts. 66 years ago, His Morally Supreme
Geniusness would have contributed to the cause of peace between the
German and the Jewish people by leading little memorial Wagner concerts
near mass-graves, following each execution.
Israelis are not as stupid as to let themselves be led by good
performers but suicidal politicians of Barenboim's type. They know that
a "prophet" like Daniel-jr. they would lead them, pronto, to the
garbage dump, not to the promised land of peace.
regards,
SG
Matthew Fields
Matthew Fields
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In article <4319BE...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >EM wrote:
> >>
> >> Sacqueboutier <don_...@comcast.net> op Sat, 03 Sep 2005 06:55:28
> >> -0400:
> >>
> >> > 1. She is required to serve in the military.
> >> >
> >> > 2. She is a military journalist.
> >> >
> >> > 3. When military personnel are on the job, they are required to be in
> >> > uniform.
> >> >
> >> > 4. Barenboim undoubted knows this.
> >>
> >> 5. Barenboim suspected her to be part of a military propaganda
> >> machine, probably not entirely unfounded, or at least not entirely
> >> unreasonable.
> >>
> >> 6. Barenboim is a free man.
> >
> >Interesting that that appeared as reason Number Six.
> By hook, or by crook, we will.
You will what?
Tom Deacon
On 9/3/05 1:55 PM, in article
1125770157.6...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "SG"
<SGG...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Another amusing thing is to notice how self-important and
> self-righteous Barenboim acts. 66 years ago, His Morally Supreme
> Geniusness would have contributed to the cause of peace between the
> German and the Jewish people by leading little memorial Wagner concerts
> near mass-graves, following each execution.
Frankly, I doubt that 66 years ago Mr. Barenboim would have been capable of
very much at all.
He was born, you see, in 1942.
It is always disturbing when an arrogant poster like Golescu gets his facts
wrong. What it does it to cast a pall over everything else he has to say.
And that, as our dear MS would say, "is a good thing".
TD
Bob Harper
> Harper, heal thyself.
>
>
I'm in good health, I'm happy to say :)
Bob Harper
John Harrington
> Matthew Fields wrote:
>
> > Harper, heal thyself.
> >
> >
> I'm in good health, I'm happy to say :)
He was speaking of mental health.
J
Matthew Fields
Matthew Fields
Bob Harper
Get a life.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
> In article <cMmdncMtT_5...@comcast.com>,
> Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>Matthew Fields wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Harper, heal thyself.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I'm in good health, I'm happy to say :)
>>
>>Bob Harper
>
>
> Got any talent to go with that boorishness?
>
>
the boorishness in preference to his talent. His early Bartok disc
(Divertimento and MSPC) is wonderful--never made it to CD AFAIK. I'd
love to learn otherwise.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Frank Berger
"Ian Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> wrote in message
news:Rr3Se.319$w7...@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Sacqueboutier" <don_...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:BF3E38C5.91B7%don_...@comcast.net...
>> On 9/2/05 2:44 PM, in article 841Se.5152$Ys5....@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net,
>> "Ian
>> Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote in message
>>> news:11hh7b7...@news.supernews.com...
>>>>
>>>> <dohg...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
>>>> news:1125680687.7...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> It's so very tiresome, Jews who are critical of Israeli are
>>>>> self-hating
>>>>> anti-Semites. Americans who oppose the invasion of Iraq are
>>>>> unpatriotic. Will this mindless fascist blather ever cease?
>>>>>
>>>>> JG
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is something wrong with a Jew who won't grant in interview to a
>>>> soldier in the IDF.
>>>
>>> He was prepared to, just not while they were wearing uniform. Read the
>>> article.
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Odd that he should shun the Israeli military, without whom there would be
>> no
>> Israel left. The lady is a journalist. That she was wearing a uniform
>> is
>> immaterial to the situation. She in the military and she should be in
>> uniform when doing her job. He was just using the situation to show his
>> utter disdain for the military that makes Israel possible.
>>
> a Hamas member in uniform.
>
> Ian
>
Of course you don't.
Frank Berger
"John Harrington" <bear...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125697623....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> dohg...@sympatico.ca wrote:
>> Berger slanders:
>>
>> "Apparently you care enough about these matters to crawl out from
>> beneath
>> your rock whenever there is an Israel-bashing opportunity."
>>
>> I don't see how this petty slander advances your argument.
>
> It doesn't, but a conscious lie on Berger's part, he hopes, may
> discredit yours.
>
>
> J
>
It was the truth, as Grant has amply demonstrated by being unable to
distinguish between the IDF and Hamas.
Frank Berger
>> On 9/2/05 5:26 PM, in article Rr3Se.319$w7...@newsfe7-win.ntli.net, "Ian
>> insure Israel's security and protect its very existence.
>
> That's not the sole role of the IDF, anymore than the sole role of Hamas
> is to ensure Palestinian security and protect the Palestinians' existence.
>
> Ian
>
From the Hamas charter:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate
it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an
Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day.
It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it,
should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.
Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time
and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the
Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will
aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the
"Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best
proof of what we are saying."
Ian Pace
They believe the land belongs to Muslims, rather like Zionists believe it
belongs to Jews.
>
> "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.
> Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of
> time and vain endeavors."
Is that so different to the sentiments and strategies of Irgun or the Stern
Gang in the 1940s?
>
> "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the
> Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they
> will aspire to further expansion, and so on.
They've already had a few goes at expanding to the Nile. There are more than
a few Zionists with expansionist aims, if not perhaps as far as the
Euphrates.
> Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and
> their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
>
This bit of course is anti-semitic nonsense.
Ian
Tom Deacon
On 9/3/05 11:05 PM, in article hrydnRhb3ps...@comcast.com, "Bob
Harper" <bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote:
You could have always suggested that he "Go argue with your wife".
Now that would be nice, Bob, putting you in the same loonybin as our
esteemed nut Jeffrey Powell.
Your "get a life" seems very unoriginal in this context and hardly forceful
enough.
TD
Tom Deacon
On 9/4/05 1:00 AM, in article 11hkvrf...@news.supernews.com, "Frank
Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
In the context of Israeli behaviour in the past 50 years, I would say that
these guys have a point.
>
> "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the
> Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will
> aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the
> "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best
> proof of what we are saying."
In the context of Israeli behaviour in the past 50 years, I would say that
these guys have a point.
Perhaps, Frank, you should join Hamas, as you seem to like their take on
matters so much you quote it. Aren't you afraid that others will see the
truth of their position?
I know I would if I were you.
TD
Matthew Fields
Norman M. Schwartz
Staatskapelle, if he is not told to go back to Israel "where he belongs"
long before he is able to do same, despite his politics.
Bob Harper
> "Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote in message
>>From the Hamas charter:
>>
>>
>>"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate
>>it, just as it obliterated others before it."
>>
>>"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an
>>Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement
>>Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of
>>it, should not be given up. "
>
>
> They believe the land belongs to Muslims, rather like Zionists believe it
> belongs to Jews.
>
>>"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad.
>>Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of
>>time and vain endeavors."
>
>
> Is that so different to the sentiments and strategies of Irgun or the Stern
> Gang in the 1940s?
>
>>"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the
>>Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they
>>will aspire to further expansion, and so on.
>
>
> They've already had a few goes at expanding to the Nile. There are more than
> a few Zionists with expansionist aims, if not perhaps as far as the
> Euphrates.
>
Does anyone seriously believe that the few Zionists saying this sort of
thing aren't nutcases, quite unrepresentative of Israeli views?
>
>> Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and
>>their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
>>
>
> This bit of course is anti-semitic nonsense.
How nice of you to notice.
>
> Ian
>
>
There's this difference, Ian:
Jews who propose an expansion of Israel to cover the land from the Nile
to the Euphrates are rightly seen as an extremist fringe whose views
will never be realized.
The Palestinians--both PLO and Hamas--continue to propose in their
official charters the total elimination of the State of Israel.
Until you are able to distinguish between those two views, it's rather
difficult for me to see how you can be regarded as seriously desiring
justice in that troubled part of the world.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
>
> You could have always suggested that he "Go argue with your wife".
>
> Now that would be nice, Bob, putting you in the same loonybin as our
> esteemed nut Jeffrey Powell.
>
> Your "get a life" seems very unoriginal in this context and hardly forceful
> enough.
>
>
> TD
>
Well, Tom, I'll stick with my original formulation. Our friend Jeffrey
may be a bit of a nut, but he also makes contributions to the musical
discussion here. Sometimes they're obsessive, but they're genuine. He
also posts interesting material for others to hear, certainly a
worthwhile service even if one disagrees with his evaluation of a
particular proportion.
John H., on the other hand, rarely posts about music (I know, I know,
that's the pot addressing the kettle. My OT/musical post ratio is
something I'm hardly proud of, but I plead provocation.) He strikes me
as terribly embittered, and his general style consists in raining down
invective and pejoratives on anyone who presumes to disagree with him,
all the while assuring us of his superior intelligence. Unpleasant, and
not a little sad. I think my advice fits.
Bob Harper