So, this was my first visit to the hall in 33 years, and my first
encounter with the hall since its 2000 renovation. I must say that the
hall has gained tremendously from the removal of the Szell Shell. The
orchestra now sounds much brighter in the hall than I remember (I
admit that said memory is 33 years old), with the strings gaining in
presence. Visually, the hall is a stunner, possibly the most-beautiful
hall in the country. The ornate trappings of the place come close to
going over the top into gaudiness, but somehow escape doing so.
The program was echt-Cleveland Orchestra, opening with the Overture to
the Creatures of Prometheus, followed by Mozart's Sinfonia concertante
with orchestral violinist William Preucil and violist Robert Vernon as
soloists, ending with Brahms 1. Conductor Laureate Christoph von
Dohnanyi returned to lead the band in music that everyone probably
knows in their sleep.
The Beethoven came off without a hitch, though the brass were more
prominent than they are in the orchestra's recording of the piece.
Dohnanyi kept the tempi quick and delivered the piece with aplomb. I
was struck by the way the orchestra consistently ended phrases with
great nuance, and how unified the sections are throughout the
orchestra.
The Mozart was fine if a bit under characterized. Tempi were quick,
maybe too quick in the first movement. The Finale started off with
some shaky ensemble, proof that the Clevelanders are indeed human. The
soloists were quite tame, not at all in the manner of what "name"
players usually bring to the piece. Once again, the phrasing and
articulation throughout the orchestra was a thing of beauty and
wonder. They have not lost their ability to play with the insight of a
chamber ensemble.
The Brahms was the obvious highlight of the evening. Dohnanyi doubled
the winds for the tutti sections (4 flutes, 4 oboes, 4 clarinets, an
added bassoon an an added French horn) and it made in big difference
in projecting voices that are often lost in the heavy string textures.
He eschewed the first movement repeat, which wasn't necessary with the
measured tempo he established. Interpretively, there was nothing
overall that was out of the ordinary without it seeming ordinary, no
signature gestures or Dohnanyi-isms (are there such things?). One got
the feeling they have played the piece this same way for decades, yet
everything seemed fresh and newly discovered. How do they do that?
Dohnanyi fairly blew through the brass chorale in the Finale, at least
to my taste. Perhaps a concession to the modern way of doing things.
The audience was a model of concert hall decorum - no annoying candy
wrappers unwrapping, no rustling of the program books when the going
got heavy...and NO ongoing conversations about, well, anything. Only
the occasional muffled cough that one expects to hear at an early
Spring concert in a northern clime. One wishes all audiences were as
attentive, respectful and knowledgeable of the repertoire as are the
denizens of Cleveland. Compared to the amateur audiences we get in
SoCal, it was a distinct pleasure to be seated next among the
seasoned.
Perhaps this decorum was aided by the fact that the State of Ohio
doesn't have CA's intrusive fire marshal announcement pre-concert. The
orchestra comes on stage, tunes, Dohnanyi makes his appearance, bows,
and gets down to work without a uttering a word to the audience. It
preserves a bit of mystery and anticipation that is lacking from the
"audience engaging" banter that precedes EVERY concert in OC.
All in all, one of the most enjoyable concert experiences I've had in
decades, especially when one considers the lack of adventure in such a
warhorse-dominated program. It proved once again that there is always
room at the top...and that the public only tires of the standard rep
when it is played poorly or indifferently.
Sounds absolutely splendid. I especially appreciate the absence the
'audience engaging' nonsense. We may disagree about many things, but
about how a concert should go we are in accord.
Bob Harper
I might also mention Dohnanyi's seating plan for the orchestra:
violins divided with firsts on his left, seconds on his right along
the lip of the stage; violas next to the seconds; double basses behind
the firsts; 'celli in the middle. This arrangement was used
throughout the concert and seemed to work quite well, producing
blended or distinctive sectional sounds as required.
> Sounds absolutely splendid. I especially appreciate the absence the
> 'audience engaging' nonsense. We may disagree about many things, but
> about how a concert should go we are in accord.
>
> Bob Harper
You woulda loved it...and I would have treated you to a drink at
intermission.
Perhaps you remember that the ushers used to carry menthol cough drops
(with quiet wrappers) that they would provide to concertgoers at
Severance who asked for them.
I agree the sound is much improved since the shell was removed. But by
all reports, it was way worse BEFORE the shell was installed, because
the stage was open at the top and swallowed up all the sound. The new
acoustic treatment also adds a small amount of reverb time, which was
needed because the hall is relatively small, and some better support
for the bass frequencies. There are still some sonic oddities if you
sit under the overhang on the main floor, so I avoid those seats at
all costs. Everywhere else, the sound is glorious.
Thanks. I'd have suggested we go for a beer afterwards.
bob Harper
That would have worked, too, though I was pretty tired after the
concert, having arrived in Cleveland the previous night on a flight
from CA. Losing those 3 hours in the time change makes it tough. Much
easier going east to west.
That's funny; I've always found going east to west tougher. The next
afternoon I'd run out of gas around 3 or 4, and learned not to try to do
anything important late in the afternoon.
Bob Harper
For me last week, it was getting to my hotel at 11:15 pm and getting
up at 7am the next morning, which was like 4am PDT.
That's the old seating which was used everywhere until the 1930s or so
and which continued to be used by some (e.g. Kubelik in Munich,
Mravinsky in Leningrad). It has made a comeback since the 80s,
probably because HIP groups typically used it. It makes a lot of sense
to have the 1st and 2nd violins laid out antiphonally because there is
a lot of literature which is composed with that in mind. A variation
of this seating which used to be fairly common is with the basses all
in a row behind the orchestra (as you can see in the Vienna New Year's
Day concerts).
What is the "Szell shell"? In pictures, I can still see a shell around
and above the stage. So was there a different shell before?
Do you mean that initially, there was no "roof" above the orchestra at
all, just an open stage behind the proscenium? I find that interesting
because I thought that Severance Hall had always been like that, with
that shell enclosing the orchestra on 3 sides and on top.
I have never been to Severance Hall so I don't have an opinion about
the sound but I have never heard anyone describe the sound as
"glorious". Most people I know who know the hall find it slightly
problematic at best, with serious lack of bass and generally to dry
and dampened. Which other major concert halls have you been to?
The hall was originally built to accommodate staged opera, so their
was open fly space above the stage. Szell had a concert shell
installed in the 1950s. It was a light wood (veneer?) that turned the
hall exclusively into a concert hall. His shell also covered up the
organ, making it useless for concerts. I believe they used a self-
contained console organ for years, but I could be wrong. I always
found the sound in Severance to be dry and very forward. That was OK
for the classical works that Szell championed, not so good for the big
romantic works.
When Maazel showed up, he beefed up the string sound quite a bit and
got the orchestra to play with more abandon than had been their stock
in trade. By the end of his tenure, I often got the feeling that the
orchestra's sound was simply too big for the hall. I don't feel that
in the renovated hall, which has a greater warmth and really great
bass response.
Concert halls I've been to? Carnegie, pre-renovation, post renovation
and post-post renovation; Avery Fisher; Academy of Music in Philly;
Davies in SF; NJPAC; Kennedy Center; a lot of other halls that I
wouldn't say qualify as major halls (I'm sure my list is leaving a few
out). Why do you ask?
So blue-collar! So Sarah Palin! Are you running for Congress?
TD
Because if you haven't been to the halls that Michael considers the
best in the world, then you are simply not in a position to judge.
TD
Not even to say something of interest.
Bob Harper
Although it might interfere with your personal pleasure, that's the very
attitude which is helping kill CM.
Where in hell do those "seasoned" come from if not from the "amateur"?
(Also an attitude I wouldn't anticipate from a 'liberal' such as you have
demonstrated being.)
> Perhaps this decorum was aided by the fact that the State of Ohio
> doesn't have CA's intrusive fire marshal announcement pre-concert.
CA, California? I don't know of any fire marshal announcement
required in California.
Steve
>Sorry, your snobbery is showing. I'm not running for anything, but
>what's wrong with beer? There are apparently decent microbrews in
>Cleveland, so why not try one (or more)? There's more to life than
>claret, Tom :)
I wish I could go, too -- but not for beer. Tataki tuna!
In terms of hall sound, there was a somewhat odd aspect. (Although
growing up listening to the CSO in Orchestra Hall prepares one for
strange-sounding acoustics...)
I can only describe the phenominon as an illusion that the winds
somehow detached themselves from the main body of orchestral string
texture and were floating above the general sound field. My seat was
up in the stratospheric reaches of the balcony, so I don't know what
part this played in the mix.
Anybody else experience anything similar in Cleveland, or were my
medications off that day?
You are absolutely right on the history of the stage. The wood in the
Szell Shell was Balsa, IIRC, in two layers, with sand between the
layers going about seven feet high. It improved the acoustics, but
there were still problematic areas in the hall. The Szell Shell also
"clashed visually with the rest of the hall." That's the discrete way
of saying it was ugly. The new shell is basically shaped the same as
Szell's shell, but the materials are refined - and of course it looks
in harmony with the rest of the hall. The sound under the balcony is
still a bit muffled, and if you're sitting on the balcony, the winds
are too prominent. (Also, when the hall was renovated in 2000, the
original balcony seats from the 1930s - which had been removed decades
earlier - were returned. Problem is, they are very small seats and
not suited to today's larger behinds.)
Since the renovation, the original organ has also been refurbished and
sounds glorious. But the pipes on stage are merely decorative.
Hank
On Apr 6, 11:17 am, mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
> The hall was originally built to accommodate staged opera, so their
> was open fly space above the stage. Szell had a concert shell
> installed in the 1950s. It was a light wood (veneer?) that turned the
> hall exclusively into a concert hall. His shell also covered up the
> organ, making it useless for concerts. I believe they used a self-
> contained console organ for years, but I could be wrong. I always
> found the sound in Severance to be dry and very forward. That was OK
> for the classical works that Szell championed, not so good for the big
> romantic works.
>
> When Maazel showed up, he beefed up the string sound quite a bit and
> got the orchestra to play with more abandon than had been their stock
> in trade. By the end of his tenure, I often got the feeling that the
> orchestra's sound was simply too big for the hall. I don't feel that
> in the renovated hall, which has a greater warmth and really great
> bass response.
>
>- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
[snip of most of the relevant stuff]
> are too prominent. (Also, when the hall was renovated in 2000, the
> original balcony seats from the 1930s - which had been removed decades
> earlier - were returned. Problem is, they are very small seats and
> not suited to today's larger behinds.)
The larger 'modern' behinds of the economic class the seats were
designed for. There may be a correlation between Great Depression
food/work supplies and average behind size. Also, the seats may have
been intended for gaunt-shanked juveniles, who may have been more
interested in 'serious' music in that period.
Yes, even now in the Burger King/MacDonald's era of fatulance, there
are slim juveniles; they are relatively thin on the ground.
bl
But it's true worldwide and across racial demographics, people in
general are taller and wider than they were 80 years ago.
Another problem with those seats is that they are so close to the row
in front of them that there is no legroom. By intermission, I feel
like I'm ready for an embolism.
Hank
Maybe it's specific to Orange County, where Mark lives. Elsewhere we do have
variously "cute" announcements about shutting off cell phones and the like.
Some of them are preceded with the Nokia tune, which makes me wonder if they
are sponsored by that company.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
>Maybe it's specific to Orange County, where Mark lives.
I live there, too! Mark & I should get together for sushi & sake! We
can argue about music, religion, & politics.
>Elsewhere we do have
>variously "cute" announcements about shutting off cell phones and the like.
Dame Edna cleverly incorporated such an announcement into her shows a
few years back at the theater in Palm Desert.
SE.
Is there an orchestra pit as well, or can the front of the stage be
removed to accommodate an orchestra below the stage sight line?
> Szell had a concert shell
> installed in the 1950s. It was a light wood (veneer?) that turned the
> hall exclusively into a concert hall. His shell also covered up the
> organ, making it useless for concerts. I believe they used a self-
> contained console organ for years, but I could be wrong. I always
> found the sound in Severance to be dry and very forward. That was OK
> for the classical works that Szell championed, not so good for the big
> romantic works.
>
> When Maazel showed up, he beefed up the string sound quite a bit and
> got the orchestra to play with more abandon than had been their stock
> in trade. By the end of his tenure, I often got the feeling that the
> orchestra's sound was simply too big for the hall. I don't feel that
> in the renovated hall, which has a greater warmth and really great
> bass response.
Interesting observations. Many are more negative about Maazel compared
to Szell than you are. What you describe sounds like a positive
development to me. Most of the Szell recordings I know I find too
sterile and too controlled. I don't quite understand what you mean by
"the orchestra's sound got too big for the hall" though. It looks like
a fairly big interior. How many seats does it have? It doesn't say in
the Wikipedia article.
> Concert halls I've been to? Carnegie, pre-renovation, post renovation
> and post-post renovation; Avery Fisher; Academy of Music in Philly;
> Davies in SF; NJPAC; Kennedy Center; a lot of other halls that I
> wouldn't say qualify as major halls (I'm sure my list is leaving a few
> out). Why do you ask?
I actually asked Operafan because he said the sound was "glorious". I
have never heard anyone describe the sound of Severance Hall that
enthusiastically. So I wondered what basis for comparison he has.
Unfortunately, there aren't that many really great halls, so I think a
lot of people don't really quite know just how great and overwhelming
a big orchestra can really sound. Of the ones you named, I have been
to Carnegie Hall (2 years ago), and I thought it was quite good; to
Avery Fisher Hall which totally sucks and which also insults the eye -
and I generally like modern concert halls better than some of the old,
overdecorated ones, like the Musikverein which is almost too much for
my eye, but then the sound is really fantastic in that hall; I have
also been to Davies Hall which is not as bad as Avery Fisher but not
really good either - pretty dead and compressed sound even close to
the orchestra.
Other halls in the US I know are Symphony Hall in Boston which has a
nice warm sound but it is pretty unbalanced and indirect although it
does carry quite well. I guess I generally don't like halls very much
in which the orchestra is in a box or shell somewhat separated from
the audience. I think it is better if the orchestra space is more
integrated into the hall, as in Vienna or in Amsterdam which also has
a warm, dark sound, but it is much more balanced and the sound of the
orchestra can unfold much more freely.
I have also been to Dorothy Chandler Pavilion and Disney Hall in LA;
the latter is a vast improvement over the former which is a dead
shoebox and also an unplesant optical experience, as dry to the eye as
the sound is to the ear. Disney Hall carries much better and has a lot
of bass, but the sound is clearer and less mid-heavy than Symphony
Hall, for instance. The one big problem DH has is that when the
orchestra gets louder, the acoustics of the hall kind of "max out". It
is as if the there is a lid on the sound which compacts and shrinks
the sound the bigger it tries to get. It's a great hall for chamber
music or chamber orchestras, but not completely adequate for large
orchestras.
>I have also been to Dorothy Chandler Pavilion and Disney Hall in LA;
>the latter is a vast improvement over the former which is a dead
>shoebox and also an unplesant optical experience, as dry to the eye as
>the sound is to the ear. Disney Hall carries much better and has a lot
>of bass, but the sound is clearer and less mid-heavy than Symphony
>Hall, for instance. The one big problem DH has is that when the
>orchestra gets louder, the acoustics of the hall kind of "max out". It
>is as if the there is a lid on the sound which compacts and shrinks
>the sound the bigger it tries to get. It's a great hall for chamber
>music or chamber orchestras, but not completely adequate for large
>orchestras.
Do full-size orchestras play in Ambassador Auditorium in Pasadena?
What do you think of that auditorium?
Also, what about the Orange County P.A.C.?
Not any more, it's owned by a (different) church now and used for
mostly their Sunday services. A rare classical concert was a Neville
Marriner / Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra concert about a year ago.
(Listen to their EMI CD of Respighi Ancient Airs & Dances, or Virgil
Thomson for an idea of how the hall sounds...I thought it had a nice
"mellow" sound and those recordings bring back memories of that sound).
Yes, large orchestras play there. I saw Karajan and the Berlin
Philharmonic in 3 concerts there around 1985/6, including the Strauss
Alpensinfonie, which was VERY loud.
>
> Also, what about the Orange County P.A.C.?
Steve
>
> Also, what about the Orange County P.A.C.?
The concert hall in OC is the Renee & Henry Segerstrom Hall. The PAC
is an older, multi-purpose beiolding. Orchestras now play at
Segerstrom Hall, not the PAC.
The acoustics are wonderful there if you're on the orchestra floor or
if seated directly up from the floor. The seats on the sides are
problematic - you get reverb from the brass bouncing off the opposite
wall a millisec behind what's being played. It can be annoying. They
just installed a $3-million organ that sounds wonderful. The hall is
visually stunning in the modern style and extremely accessible.
Segerstrom can also adjust the reverb by adjusting the side walls -
there is an open area just outside the walls, a huge column of air
from floor to ceiling. It couldn't be more different than Severance
Hall.
One bad design element of Segerstrom if that the railings on the upper
levels are only knee-high. You have the fear that you're going to fall
into the orchestra from 20 feet up! They're looking for a solution to
the problem. The hall has been open for 4 years.
In the main, I hear the Pacific Symphony at Segerstrom. They're an
excellent band, and they carry a lot of fiddles so their sound is
great in Strauss and the big romantic works. Their brass never flub.
The PSO gets great reviews in Europe but they're overshadowed by the
LAPO. They're a per-service orchestra that typically plays one weekend
of concerts a month.
Halls with good acoustics in New England:
(of course) Symphony Hall, Boston
Sanders Theater, Cambridge
Jordan Hall, Boston
Mechanics Hall in Worcester
Veterans Memorial Auditorium in Providence
Zeiterion Theater in New Bedford
Which ones did I miss?
-Owen
The original hall had on 1844 seats. I don't know that any were added
in the renovation of 2000. They may have actually lost a few seats as
the Orchestra has restored the pit in front of the stage. They now use
it for their staged opera performances. There were no seats placed on
top of the pit area at the concert I attended. They could easily fit 3
rows of chairs on the pit if they needed to add seats.
What meant by the sound being too big for the hall is that it was a
bit overwhelming to hear large works like the Verdi Requiem in such a
small hall.
As for the opera performances, they are limited by the fact that the
ceiling over the renovated stage is permanent. That means they don't
have a fly space or mechanism to fly drops. Ergo, they're limited to
operas that can be performed on a unit set. They performed Le nozze
last year, Cosi fan tutte last month and will perform Don Giovanni
next year.
But not more than Pinot Noir!
TD
Sorry, I haven't been to those venues. I intended to go to the PAC and
see the Pacific Symphony some time, but then I moved from CA to Boston
very suddenly and I didn't have the time for that anymore.
Isn't that the *point* when you have large ensembles, a big orchestra
with choir on stage in such pieces? A piece like the Verdi Requiem
*should* overwhelm you in the climaxes, and crush you in the Dies
Irae!
> As for the opera performances, they are limited by the fact that the
> ceiling over the renovated stage is permanent. That means they don't
> have a fly space or mechanism to fly drops. Ergo, they're limited to
> operas that can be performed on a unit set. They performed Le nozze
> last year, Cosi fan tutte last month and will perform Don Giovanni
> next year.
I wonder if they could have set that up so that the top of the shell
could be removed. Probably, but that would probably also have been
very expensive.
If you're willing to include Troy, NY as a part of the New England
scene, the Troy Savings Bank Hall is really good.
Bob Harper
>
> > What meant by the sound being too big for the hall is that it was a
> > bit overwhelming to hear large works like the Verdi Requiem in such a
> > small hall.
>
> Isn't that the *point* when you have large ensembles, a big orchestra
> with choir on stage in such pieces? A piece like the Verdi Requiem
> *should* overwhelm you in the climaxes, and crush you in the Dies
> Irae!
>
I believe that a hall has to be a certain size to allow an orchestra's
sound to fully blossom, and that the small size of Severance used to
work against their sound blossoming.
I once heard Birgit Nilsson in a rehearsal hall at the Met. The small
size of the room made her voice almost unbearable to listen to. All
one heard was the steel core of her voice with almost no shimmer
around it. Later, I heard her essay the same music from the stage of
the Met. With the added space that the hall provided, her voice opened
up and sounded incredibly warm. Yet a friend of mine who was singing
on stage with her in the production said that up close, her voice
still sounded like all core, no shimmer.
I think the same effect used to afflict the CO at Severance during the
Szell Shell years. Indeed, I heard the CO in any number of large-ish
works when they would visit Carnegie, and I never felt that the sound
was oppressive to listen to. But Carnegie is a much larger hall than
is Severance.
I'd be interested in hearing, say, the Verdi Requiem in the renovated
Severance to see what the effect is these days. The last time I heard
it there was in 1972 under Maazel with an almost-perfect set of
soloists: Martina Arroyo, Shirley Verrett, Placido Domingo and Bonaldo
Giaotti.
Oh, bullsh*t.
Yes, we all know how much a concert is enhanced by your neighbor
talking about their gall bladder operation while the music is playing.
We all know that composers had the sound of candy wrappers in mind
when they penned their most-delicate music. NOT!
We're not talking about "my personal pleasure." We're talking about
the personal pleasure of the vast majority of people sitting in that
concert hall who wish for nothing more than SILENCE from their fellow
audience members so that they and everyone else can hear the damn
musicians.
How does an amateur concert-goer become a seasoned concert-goer? Well,
perhaps in the best of all possible worlds, they do it they way people
learn everything else, ie: by watching the seasoned people and
adapting their habits. Clue One - if the seasoned people aren't
jabbering during the playing of the music, maybe it's best to be quiet
as well. If you see the seasoned concert goer unwrapping their Halls
cough drop BEFORE the music starts, maybe that 's a hint. If most of
the seasoned people place their program under their chair right before
the music starts, perhaps it's a clue that the music is better heard
if you don't distract yourself by reading through the ads from the car
companies and furriers as the music is being performed.
A concert hall experience should be a special experience. I, for one,
am there to hear the musicians play the music. I didn't pay top dollar
to hear the couple behind me go on about what they plan on doing after
the music ends, be it having a late dinner or screwing their eyes out.
Amateur concert goers these days have all the decorum of a person who
goes to a top restaurant and spends the night farting like he was at a
fraternity hazing. Why not learn a little bit about the concert
experience before going? Why not have a little respect for the other
paying customers who didn't come to hear YOU, but came to hear the
music? Earth to amateur - you're not at home in your living room!
You're at a public concert where the focus is the music, not YOU. If
you want to have the experience of your living room, then rent a
concert video and fart and screw all you want in the privacy of your
boudoir.
I make no apologies for my "liberal" take on this issue.
>
> Perhaps you remember that the ushers used to carry menthol cough drops
> (with quiet wrappers) that they would provide to concertgoers at
> Severance who asked for them.
>
They still do. In fact, the ushers all wear a little badge on their
jackets that pictures an icon of a person coughing, sitting in a red
circle with the red diagonal line over the image (ie: the universal
sign for DON'T). I thought that was cute.
Title 24, Part 9, Slice 2, 2007, Section 408.2.2 of the CA fire code
states that an audible announcement must be made not more than 10
minutes before the start of an event notifying the occupants of the
hall of the location of the fire exits. The law applies to theaters,
motion picture theaters, auditoriums and similar assembly occupancies.
In the case of a motion picture theater, the announcement may be
projected on the screen if OKed by the local fire marshall. The law
has been in effect since 2007. Look it up.
I don't recall hearing these announcements at Disney Hall in Los
Angeles.
I see that same section "408.2.2" in many state's codes, including the
"2007 Ohio Fire Code", so maybe it is not enforced, or has no penalty
associated with it?
http://www.archive.org/stream/gov.oh.fire/oh_fire_djvu.txt
Steve
Damn, Mark, for a liberal you make a pretty good curmudgeon :) Needless
to say, I agree with you down the line on this. I remember some years
back my wife and I had season tickets to the Oregon Symphony, and
unfortunately the couple next to us included a wife who COULD NOT shut
up, despite her husband's attempts to get her to do so. We both looked
daggers at her and uttered the occasional (quiet) "Shhh!", but without
effect. Eventually either they stopped coming or we changed seats, I
don't remember which. We were greatly relieved.
Bob Harper
Well intended, no doubt, but just the sort of thing one would want to
hear before, say, the Mahler 9th.
Bob Harper
Or, The Firebird...
> Damn, Mark, for a liberal you make a pretty good curmudgeon
>
Well, I am 55 years old, after all. Most people who now me wonder how
I've lived so long, what with my lack of an internal editor when it
comes to political discussions.
In the event of a real fire, knowing where the exits are makes the
difference between life and death.
-Owen
That was indeed a total BS comment. Asking people to understand that
the point of going to that kind of concert is to listen to the music
and to respect that other concert goers do just is not "the attitude
which is killing CM". That must be one of the most idiotic things I
have read on this forum, and that is saying a lot. Amazingly enough
though, Schwartz almost manages to even instantly top his own idiocy
with the following statement.
I don't think that "CM" is in danger of getting killed, at least not
in the more educated and enlightened parts of the world. Maybe in the
US, but then everything here seems to go to shit anyway, so the loss
of interest in culture is not surprising in a country in which a
demonstratively anti-intellectual attitude is seen as a virtue by so
many people.
In my hometown of Berlin which has more "CM" going on than any other
place in the world, the concerts and opera performances are extremely
well attended and the audience is usually very well behaved but at the
same time usually very laid back, casually dressed and not at all
repressed by those evil people who actually want to listen to the
music. Since going to a "CM" concert is not something so extraordinary
for many people and since appreciating culture is actually seen as
something positive, many people go and just have a good time. And
because they do, most of them have no trouble actually listening.
Not a good idea. Even if you sit in the first few rows near the stage,
the music seems to go right over your head. Not the most impactful
experience. I recall sitting there (student tickets!) for Vaughan
Williams Sea Symphony in the 1970's (yes, with the electronic organ),
and the waves washed over my head.
Scroll down to the bottom of this page and look at the Orchestra level
seating plan of this hall. Sitting in the center there and with zero aisles,
I can hardly make it out when intermission arrives, and particulary if
others decide to remain seated. (And it's wider than it appears.)
http://www.citidex.com/seat/nysth.html?res=800
> Hank
I recall a fire alarm going off in a local old movie theater. Most
people queued up to leave at the entrance, but I decided if there
really was a fire, that would be too slow, so I went out the exit near
the screen. Outside the doorway was a hole with a single plank of wood
transversing it. Had that been a real fire (and it was an old wooden
theater) we could easily have been trapped or at least delayed by that
obstructed (to say the least) exit.
-Owen
>
> In the event of a real fire, knowing where the exits are makes the
> difference between life and death.
>
Of course, but once the novelty of the concert hall fire announcement
has worn off it is ignored just as surely as is the safety briefing
given on every airplane flight. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be made as
there is always the chance that someone will be in attendance for whom
it is new. I was just remarking that the practice of making the fire
announcement in the theater right before the music starts sucks some
of the aura out of the concert hall experience.
Back in the 70s, I had a very front row seat on house right for a
Mahler 9 performance led by Haitink. The violas were seated on the
edge of the stage, so I heard a lot of viola. Not so much the violins.
And the winds came across as disembodied. Too close to any stage is
never a good idea, especially in opera where all the sweating can get
distracting.
Here in Rhode Island, we experienced the 4th worst nightclub fire in
2003, which resulted in people piled up burning to death at the front
entrance, when there were at least one other exit available to them.
(Though, regrettably, it's said that bouncers were turning people away
from the best exit.) 100 people were killed, many horribly burned.
Getting people to notice where the exits are before a presentation may
save a lot of people's lives.
I hope that when a fire alarm goes off, nobody chooses to stay in their
seats.
-Owen
I think it's safe to say that these kind of laws are passed in
reaction to the kind of nightclub fires you mention. Many of these
clubs operate illegally or on the fringes of the law. Often, exits are
chained shut to keep gate crashers out. One doesn't hear of fires and
mass deaths at symphony halls these days, but the law once passed is
applied the same to everybody.
The tragic thing is that the symphony halls - which don't really have
these kids of problems born of illegal activity - will probably opt to
do the right thing, while other more-marginal operations will continue
with their questionable practices until the next tragedy strikes.
>
> I think it's safe to say that these kind of laws are passed in
> reaction to the kind of nightclub fires you mention. Many of these
> clubs operate illegally or on the fringes of the law. Often, exits are
> chained shut to keep gate crashers out. One doesn't hear of fires and
> mass deaths at symphony halls these days, but the law once passed is
> applied the same to everybody.
>
> The tragic thing is that the symphony halls - which don't really have
> these kids of problems born of illegal activity - will probably opt to
> do the right thing, while other more-marginal operations will continue
> with their questionable practices until the next tragedy strikes.
After the Station fire, there were announcements when the RI
Philharmonic played and at most public venues simply alerting people to
the exits. In fact, the conductor did so before the concert just after
the fire. Most public buildings in RI are now upgraded to a fairly
stringent fire code.
But it's not just illegal activity that will cause these problems. It
could be an electrical short, or some other kind of incident that
starts a blaze, and most symphony halls are fairly flammable wood
structures, possibly with or without working sprinklers. I still
advise everyone to take every fire alarm deadly seriously.
-Owen
Ouch! That seems pretty harsh. But I guess that's what they do in
Texas.
Have the bouncers been charged with manslaughter or something like
that?
Much more distracting than that is if you get too close to a ballet.
When I worked as a bass player, I played in ballet performances a
number of times and if you are right in front of the stage, the
"trampling" of all the feet is really loud. When the music is soft,
you can usually also hear the dancers breathe. Especially in places
like in Swan Lake when all the little swans stand around the soloists
in circle on one leg, they breathe really heavily and rapidly because
it is actually really taxing to stand on one leg for several minutes.
It is really great though to sit in one of the front rows in the
Philharmonie in Berlin though. The first rows don't get that close to
the stage anyway and the stage is hardly any higher than the first
rows. Plus the podium is terraced, so you can see and hear everyone in
the orchestra really well, although the sound in that close is
obviously more "fanned out" and less blended than you would hear it
from further away, and it's pretty overwhelming (in a good way) when
the orchestra lets loose (which the BP do all the time).
That's one thing I don't like about Symphony Hall here in Boston, the
stage is pretty high and with no risers or terraces for the sections
in the back. So if you are on the main floor, you can't basically see
anything except for the conductor and the outer row of the strings. I
wonder why they do that, and since when they have been doing that
because in old pictures in the foyer, you can see that they used to
have risers on the stage.
There have been charges filed, but not of the bouncers. There were
reports that it happened, and that's about it. It's pretty hard to
identify someone who you see for a few seconds amidst thick, heavy
black smoke.
-Owen
Thanks for the interesting post..
I was going to ask you (or anyone who knows) -- where are the good
seats in the Semperoper in Dresden? Especially, how far to the sides
would you sit? (For concerts, they seem to include pretty wide
sections of the orchestra in the premium price category.)
Thanks very much,
Lena
> Back in the 70s, I had a very front row seat on house right for a
> Mahler 9 performance led by Haitink. The violas were seated on the
> edge of the stage, so I heard a lot of viola. Not so much the violins.
> And the winds came across as disembodied. Too close to any stage is
> never a good idea, especially in opera where all the sweating can get
> distracting.
I went to one of those Mahler 9 performances (wonderful!), but I had a
better ticket than that (for student ticket prices, in the balcony).
Those seats on the front edges are poor for balance.
I had front row seats for Bavouzet's Prokofiev 3rd Cto. It was great.
-Owen
> I had front row seats for Bavouzet's Prokofiev 3rd Cto. It was great.
>
> -Owen
Didn't he play Prokofiev 1st concerto?
He plays them all, but he played the 3rd the night I saw him.
-Owen
The acoustics in the Semperoper are quite good, but a little on the
dry side. It's not such a huge space, the main floor is kind of
roundish and the balconies on the sides don't overhang much so even
the seats on the outsides are not really covered by them. The only
exception are a few seats in the back which are covered by the "royal
box". You can also see quite well from almost anywhere. The best seats
are probably the ones in the center of the audience, maybe 8-10 rows
back or so. If you have the opportunity to go to Dresden and hear the
Staatskapelle, you should treat yourself to the best tickets. After
all, you are going to hear one of the best orchestras in the world, so
don't waste the opportunity by buying cheap tickets.
Thanks very much. I agree about the pointlessness of cheap
tickets.
(Though it's sometimes difficult to get to choose the absolute best
seats -- there are subscriptions, concerts turn out to be overly
popular, I plan like an idiot -- so I sometimes get to debate the
comparative merits of two less than optimal choices...)
Thanks again, and I may have to ask later about the Berlin
Philharmonic.
Lena
Are you talking about last month?
No, I'm talking about two years or so ago.
-Owen