Byrd anniversary....

[Todd M. McComb]

So 2023 is the 400th anniversary of the death of William Byrd....
And more recordings have been appearing, mostly various assorted
collections at this point.

Back when I studied Gustav Reese's _Renaissance Music_, Byrd was
placed with Palestrina & Lassus at the summit of the later 16th
century style. That's later than my priorities these days -- it's
e.g. post-Columbian. Nonetheless, Byrd is considered by many people
as one of the greatest composers of one of the greatest generations.
Where he particularly stands out versus his peers elsewhere though
is in his instrumental compositions, as he was one of the most
important contributors to nascent genres.... So even though it's
later, I've particularly enjoyed his keyboard & consort music....
(Byrd is also well-known for being a Catholic during the English
Reformation, which drove many of the stylistic changes at the
time....)

But I'm not sure that anything that's really a landmark survey has
appeared for the anniversary (yet).... Thoughts?

[mINE109]

Thanks for mentioning this. A centenary collection would be welcome but
I can see how it would be unlikely. The saving grace is that his choral
and viol consort works are well-represented in the market.

I'm reminded of Davitt Moroney's keyboard recordings, available streaming.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <ugk0kf$1k1f1$1...@dont-email.me>,

mINE109 <pianof...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>A centenary collection would be welcome but I can see how it would
>be unlikely.

Alamire has released (on "Inventa") a new recording of his _Songs
of sundrie natures_ (1589). A new reading of the complete _Psalms,
songs and sonnets_ (1611) seems like a reasonable ask....

And yes, the Maroney keyboard set is of high value....

[Mandryka]

The most interesting new Byrd keyboard music this year is the three tracks by a harpsichordist I hadn’t heard of before called Emanuel Frankenberg here

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9495832--the-dutch-harpsichord-school-a-tribute-to-gustav-leonhardt

That being said, Stephen Farr has released a CD of organ music which I haven’t heard - could be worth a shot.

Belder hasn’t caught my imagination I’m afraid.

[steve...@gmail.com]

Any thoughts about Kit Armstrong's recording of Byrd and Bull on DG?

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <6c201b60-532c-4882...@googlegroups.com>,

steve...@gmail.com <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Any thoughts about Kit Armstrong's recording of Byrd and Bull on
>DG?

There was some discussion on the group when this was new....

I think some of this music sounds nice on piano, so support these
kinds of efforts. It's hard to play though... basically all those
quick notes benefit from the "spring" of the harpsichord, and are
very tiring on piano... and so I don't think it always comes off
great. Things can seem a little warped at times in that set,
including just tired fingers. Part of a process I think....

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <8d713fc1-a7cb-4d5f...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>That being said, Stephen Farr has released a CD of organ music
>which I haven't heard - could be worth a shot.

I listened to this yesterday. It has its good points, but the big
organ really lacks the intimacy of a virginal -- even though, to
his credit, Farr plays some lighter stops for some tracks. The
echo & held tones force a slower (& more somber) pace to the music,
which works for some pieces better than others....

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <8d713fc1-a7cb-4d5f...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:

>The most interesting new Byrd keyboard music this year is the three
>tracks by a harpsichordist I hadn't heard of before called Emanuel
>Frankenberg here
>https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9495832--the-dutch-harpsichord-school-a-tribute-to-gustav-leonhardt

Good find.... Emmanuel (with 2 "m"s), I guess, and I don't recall
anything else from him either.

[Mandryka]

One Byrd organ CD I like is by Marianne Lévy - Noisette’s CD. Part of it is organological - the instrument she uses is special.

[Mandryka]

How could I! I forgot the most important new Byrd keyboard release - bold performances I’d say. Lydia Maria Blank’s survey

https://www.artistcamp.com/lydia-maria-blank/william-byrd-music-for-the-virginalls/9008798375004/index.html

[Mandryka]

If you’re interested in piano then try Daniel Ben Pienaar’s Byrd CD - released this year.

[Mandryka]

Someone (hint, hint Todd) should do a thorough review of Belder’s new Byrd releases. He’s clearly embarked on a big survey, he’s clearly very experienced in playing English music, he has a good reputation. I just can’t summon the energy!

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <04058230-77d8-4626...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Someone (hint, hint Todd) should do a thorough review of Belder's
>new Byrd releases.

Well I've listened to the Fitzwilliam & My Ladye Nevells releases....
I guess I enjoyed the former more than the latter, but that's a lot
about expectations, and that MLNB possesses multiple previous
complete recordings.... None of it seemed revelatory, but solid.

[mINE109]

On 10/17/23 9:38 PM, Mandryka wrote:

> One Byrd organ CD I like is by Marianne Lévy - Noisette’s CD. Part of it is organological - the instrument she uses is special.

Thanks for this! "Hugh Ashton's Ground" is as I always pictured it on
organ. "The Barkley-Break" [sic?] is a rousing opener.

OTOH, the tuning for "My Lady Nevell's Ground" is especially striking
for those not accustomed. Meantone?

[Mandryka]

It is 1/4 comma meantone

[Mandryka]

The organ is amazing, and there it is hidden in a little, wonderful looking church (St Sulpice) in a little town in deepest Normandy (Breteuil sur Iton) And the organist - who has as far as I know just this one recording - really is good. She knows how to drive the instrument (which I guess she manages and loves), and she knows how to make sense of the music.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <f970cd1c-73fe-4b21...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>How could I! I forgot the most important new Byrd keyboard release -
>bold performances I'd say. Lydia Maria Blank's survey

Listening through this lengthy set once, I was indeed struck by
some of her virtuosic interpretations in the big works. Many of
the pieces seemed to run together stylistically though.... Although
I will listen again, it brought up again a basic thought about this
repertory, namely that it seems as though everyone is starting from
scratch.... Maybe that's what HIP really is, but after all this
time, I'd think to hear more building of one person's interpretation
upon another's etc... like a school. But not much.

Another recent recording that struck me on a first hearing -- and
this is almost more a WAYLTL post -- is Chylek's new "Tallis - Byrd
- Gibbons" using both organ & harpsichord, which I found a lot more
compelling on first impression than his prior Byrd readings....
(People do build on *their own* interpretations here....)

[Mandryka]

To me they all sound kind of the same - apart from tempo. In Byrd on harpsichord, I don’t think we’ve had any significant disruption from the basic ideas in Leonhardt’s early recording yet. There hasn’t been a Sergio Vartolo or a Wolfgang Rubsam for Byrd, except possibly Egarr and Koopman - and they’re both oddballs with no followers.


I really don’t know what HIP means in this context. Has there been much work done on what the manuscripts mean? What rhythm and phrasing and tempo they’re proposing? What type of embellishments were used? If so, I’ve never seen it.

[Mandryka]

Actually, reflecting a bit on disruptive influences in Byrd, I should listen again to two before being confident that what I wrote above is correct - Glen Wilson (who from memory is unusually severe) and Elizabeth Farr (who may be quite free with the counterpoint, staggering voices.)

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <e80261fa-d96b-478c...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>In Byrd on
>harpsichord, I don't think we've had any significant disruption from
>the basic ideas in Leonhardt's early recording yet.

Maroney is the basic standard for me.

>I really don't know what HIP means in this context. Has there
>been much work done on what the manuscripts mean? What rhythm and

>phrasing and tempo they'he proposing? What type of embellishments
>were used?

Yes, but as noted, it's largely been individuals undertaking their
own individual research.

[cheregi]

On Thursday, November 2, 2023 at 3:16:51 PM UTC+8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> Yes, but as noted, it's largely been individuals undertaking their
> own individual research.

One thing that I feel like I've noticed reading contemporary musicology texts but also anthropology, sociology etc is that every academic seems determined to propose a new framework and new jargon for conceptualizing their chosen field, breaking down its constituent parts, etc - like different ways to break down the gradations between improvisation and composition, or different ways to break down the various roles music can play in a cultural lifeway - in a book-length study nobody ever comes out and says, actually I think this other person's system is really good so I'll apply it... or, often it seems to me that somebody did some interesting field work which is really fascinating to read about, but the jargon-based abstraction portion of the text is boring and unconvincing and ideally would have been cut... I have to imagine this has to do with the shrinking academic job market, every book needing to pull extra weight in terms of self-marketing/CV value, but I don't really know.

In any case I guess maybe a lot of HIP is like that, every performer comes up with their own particular 'brand'...

[Mandryka]

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 4:18:04 AM UTC, cheregi wrote:
>
>
> In any case I guess maybe a lot of HIP is like that, every performer comes up with their own particular 'brand'...

Think of uninformed Bach performances and informed ones. Is it really true that there’s less variety of approaches in the uninformed performances?



No.


Same for Beethoven, Chopin etc.

[Mandryka]

Every performer, informed or uninformed, ought to come up with their own approach. Interpretation is an art.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <084dea02-214b-47db...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Every performer, informed or uninformed, ought to come up with
>their own approach. Interpretation is an art.

Well yes, but that doesn't rule out building more on what others
have done, rather than starting from scratch.

[Mandryka]

Give me a concrete example. Did Cortot’s pupils build on what Cortot had done when they played Chopin? I don’t hear it. Did anyone build on what Furtwangler did?

The only exceptions I can think of right now are -

1. Gould’s tempo in the first (few) Goldberg variations

2. Schnabel’s tempo in the first few variations of Beethoven op 111/ii

3. Fischer-Dieskau’s extreme studied singing style

4. The short lived fashion for strict and literal performances - presumably originating with Toscanini and Walcha

All four are arguably a bad thing.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <912a4e88-4fc4-495a...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Give me a concrete example. Did Cortot's pupils build on what Cortot
>had done when they played Chopin? I don't hear it. Did anyone build
>on what Furtwangler did?

It was kind of a general feeling I was getting in listening to some
of this. I didn't really expect such a response. But I also think
these questions are backwards, i.e. asking for someone following a
famous interpreter, rather than asking the influences for a current
interpreter....

I've forgotten for the moment which disc it was, but a recent Josquin
(I think it was...) album had the vocal ensemble director saying
thst he'd never heard anyone else perform this music. (It was not
obscure music, relatively speaking.) He said it almost like it was
a badge of honor. I thought that was very weird. Do post-Cortot
Chopin interpreters boast of never having heard the piece? (And
his interpretation was boring.)

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <db52779e-a4aa-4f8c...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Why should any musician listen to previous interpretations? They have
>the score, they have been trained in how to read it, translate it into
>sounds. They have their instrument, and they have their technique and
>imagination. That's all they need.

Obviously something like that has to suffice when one is playing
something for the first time, particularly old music where no one
alive has ever heard it.... That's a world I've been in for a long
time. I can't say as I really like it though: It's simply a
necessary situation for some music, and decades ago, I was pining
for a situation where performers (singers especially) had actually
grown up hearing the music. Now some have, and results are good!
Meanwhile, we have others saying "Of course I've never heard this..."
& their results are tedious. One might get some interesting
iconoclast out of such a scenario, but mostly one just gets mediocre
nothing....

So why should any musician listen to other interpretations? To
learn more about music! Once one has established one's repertory,
sure, maybe there is no more reason to hear others. Why do you
listen to others?

>Have you read Pierre Bourdieu.

Yes. And in fact, much of your discussion seemed to be saying how
much e.g. growing up hearing particular music ends up affecting
someone more deeply than they realize.

[Mandryka]

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 6:17:44 PM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:

>
> So why should any musician listen to other interpretations? To
> learn more about music! Once one has established one's repertory,
> sure, maybe there is no more reason to hear others.

I'd like to hear from musicians about this.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <31a2c479-dc18-4594...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>I'd like to hear from musicians about this.

It's probably in part due to the specific influence of the jazz
tradition, but when contemporary improvisors are interviewed, there's
usually substantial discussion of their influences, what they heard
growing up, what they like to listen to now.... It's an ordinary
part of many musical conversations, so I'm not sure what seems
strange to you....

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <ui3hhg$de3$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,

Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
>It's probably in part due to the specific influence of the jazz
>tradition, but when contemporary improvisors are interviewed, there's
>usually substantial discussion of their influences, what they heard
>growing up, what they like to listen to now.... It's an ordinary
>part of many musical conversations, so I'm not sure what seems
>strange to you....

BTW, my middle daughter was really pompous about this when she was
a teen -- and I guess I'm only assuming she's softened her views
since.... "I only listen to music I make!" was a typical rejoinder
from her when someone would ask her what she liked.... Well, OK.

[cheregi]

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 3:53:17 PM UTC+8, Mandryka wrote:
> On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 5:06:01 AM UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > In article <084dea02-214b-47db...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >Every performer, informed or uninformed, ought to come up with
> > >their own approach. Interpretation is an art.
> > Well yes, but that doesn't rule out building more on what others
> > have done, rather than starting from scratch.
> Give me a concrete example. Did Cortot’s pupils build on what Cortot had done when they played Chopin? I don’t hear it. Did anyone build on what Furtwangler did?

I remember comparing the Pearl releases 'Pupils of Clara Schumann' and 'Pupils of Liszt'. The Schumann pupils all sounded almost exactly the same, whereas the Liszt pupils seemed to have nothing in common with each other. It was an interesting contrast as far as what it implied about the respective approaches to pedagogy. Don't you think though that there are absolutely identifiable lineages built on learning the style of a teacher? Like, how else do you get stylistically-distinct 'French pianism' as opposed to 'Russian pianism' for example - is it the weather?

[cheregi]

On Saturday, November 4, 2023 at 3:31:30 AM UTC+8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <ui3hhg$de3$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,
> Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
>"I only listen to music I make!"

This is so powerful...

[Mandryka]

I don’t think that teachers necessarily build identifiable images. Leonhardt and Walcha didn’t.

Re French pianism as opposed to Russian pianism, let me ask you something: does Cortot’s touch sound so different from Horowitz’s in their early recordings of the Liszt sonata?

[cheregi]

Do you mean here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feWKbokuPek and here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoQ1WGWrox4 ?

I really would like to be compelled by the idea that 'national style in classical pianism' is an artificially-imposed narrative with no real explanatory power, but I'm not convinced yet. As for Cortot and Horowitz here, I am not such a good listener that with this old audio I can definitively say much about touch, but I can say there are at least a few differences in interpretation (but whether those are at the level of 'national style' is pure speculation). But the differences are much more pronounced if you pick something more canonical, like Chopin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGi7LYzBPoI vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QXz8-rQ2hE

So maybe it's possible to argue that the Liszt sonata was new enough at that time, and so widely heard as played by the composer during his lifetime, that the different schools of interpretation had not yet had a chance to diverge all that far..? And then of course ubiquity of audio recordings interrupts the whole process dramatically.

[cheregi]

On Sunday, November 5, 2023 at 7:56:49 AM UTC+8, cheregi wrote:
> and so widely heard as played by the composer during his lifetime,

Actually I have no idea if this part is true. I just assumed from what I know about Liszt...

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <uhufc0$pak$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,

Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:

>Listening through this lengthy set once, I was indeed struck by

>some of her [Blank's] virtuosic interpretations in the big works.

>Many of the pieces seemed to run together stylistically though....

Listening a second time to the full set, I definitely feel that the
faster/more virtuosic pieces/passages are more her strength.

>Another recent recording that struck me on a first hearing -- and
>this is almost more a WAYLTL post -- is Chylek's new "Tallis - Byrd
>- Gibbons" using both organ & harpsichord, which I found a lot more
>compelling on first impression than his prior Byrd readings....

And I continue to enjoy this more on a track-to-track basis, although
some pieces from Blank's set are probably more valuable to me in
the long run....

Anyway, to quote the liner notes by John Dante Prevedini:

"What makes Byrd's music so powerful in this way, from a listening
perspective? I can only speak from the inevitable subjectivity of
my own lived experience, but one thing that keeps bringing me back
to his music is its sense of existential reconciliation. By this
I mean a voice that seems to make sense of the big questions of
life while also integrating them into the earthiness of daily
experience. I hear this in his unique combination of emotionally
profound lyricism in his melodic lines, an infectious and dance-like
rhythmic drive, a playful spirit in imitative polyphony, and the
breadth of harmonic nuances made possible by his modal thinking."

[cheregi]

On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 9:14:30 AM UTC+8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> "What makes Byrd's music so powerful in this way, from a listening
> perspective? I can only speak from the inevitable subjectivity of
> my own lived experience, but one thing that keeps bringing me back
> to his music is its sense of existential reconciliation. By this
> I mean a voice that seems to make sense of the big questions of
> life while also integrating them into the earthiness of daily
> experience. I hear this in his unique combination of emotionally
> profound lyricism in his melodic lines, an infectious and dance-like
> rhythmic drive, a playful spirit in imitative polyphony, and the
> breadth of harmonic nuances made possible by his modal thinking."

I have nothing to add, but I like this passage and will think about it next time I decide to listen to Byrd interpretations. Is Moroney still your most highly recommended?

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <d6e3b9c9-8f3f-4cfa...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Is Moroney still your most highly recommended?

That's the landmark survey, yes, although there are getting to be
individual interpretations I might prefer.... Moroney really "gets"
Byrd (& had a lot to do with popularizing the keyboard works), and
plays some more interesting (than most) instruments as well.

Note in general, per the thread, that I'm interested in other aspects
of Byrd's output here during the anniversary too.... I do consider
him one of the greatest keyboard composers of all time though.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <uii32m$qe$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,

Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:

>That's the landmark survey, yes, although there are getting to be
>individual interpretations I might prefer....

For Blank's survey, I've really enjoyed e.g. her "Passing Measures"
Pavan & Galliard. That might be a good piece for new listeners,
at least for those for whom more rhythmic-virtuosic pieces appeal....
(Moroney recorded it in both of his big Byrd surveys.)

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <uii3i6$115$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,

Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:
>For Blank's survey, I've really enjoyed e.g. her "Passing Measures"
>Pavan & Galliard.

Her rendition of "Fortune" leading off CD2 is really good too.

[Mandryka]

She released three major recordings this year - the Byrd, an AoF and an Italian compilation CD. They have all been ignored by reviewers as far as I can see. It’s a shame. She’s very friendly and I’m sure she’d love to exchange ideas with someone writing a review (hint, hint.)

[Mandryka]

I’ll just mention that Hogwood remains top pick for me!

[cheregi]

On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 5:36:29 PM UTC+8, Mandryka wrote:
> I’ll just mention that Hogwood remains top pick for me!

OK, noted... I'll enjoy comparing Hogwood and Moroney.

Also, this is deliriously off-topic, but Mandryka you mentioned Lena Jacobson recently and I remembered you bringing her up at some other point. I am really enjoying her insane Buxtehude and also the absolutely phenomenal Hans Davidsson (another great organist) review of a reissue of hers, here https://www.sscm-jscm.org/jscm/v6/no2/davidsson.html , you've probably seen it - it's just really in line with my interest in 'HIP as high-modernism':

"The uncompromising projection of the idea of a “sung tonal speech” in Jacobson’s playing unfortunately results in a constructed irregularity that is perceived as regular, and a non-intuitive mannerism that gives no space for balance, contrast, or the unexpected, all considered to be essential elements of the seventeenth-century paradigm. The result is an almost surrealistic picture of scattered motives and ideas, “cut-out phrases and gestures,” with no relationship to one another"

"The recording, however, can possibly be seen as a congenial application of an important perspective of twentieth-century aesthetics: the uncompromising projection and realization of a purely intellectual concept. As such it is indeed an impressive accomplishment, a truly consistent practice of performance rather than a performance in an historical practice."

[Mandryka]

Actually by coincidence I've got quite interested in the Compenius chest organ in Frederiksborg Castle, and so I got out her recording of dances just a couple of days ago, I thought it was bloody awful, unlistenable!

This, if you're sufficiently masochistic

https://www.discogs.com/master/1790921-Lena-Jacobson-Court-Dance-Music-From-The-Renaissance-And-Early-Baroque-On-The-Organ-By-Esaias-Compen

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <e47cd96c-1f3f-4672...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>She's very friendly and I'm sure she'd love to exchange ideas with
>someone writing a review (hint, hint.)

Ha, well, thanks for the suggestion. I don't have a regular review
practice for music of the era, and hadn't really thought about doing
that when expressing interest in this thread.... I do have a soft
spot for the keyboard works though, so it's not a bad idea....
Except that I may be moving soon, which is going to be a huge project
after so many years, so I'll probably be out of commission -- other
than short comments like this -- for a few months....

[cheregi]

On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 12:38:35 AM UTC+8, Mandryka wrote:
> Actually by coincidence I've got quite interested in the Compenius chest organ in Frederiksborg Castle, and so I got out her recording of dances just a couple of days ago, I thought it was bloody awful, unlistenable!
>
> This, if you're sufficiently masochistic
>
> https://www.discogs.com/master/1790921-Lena-Jacobson-Court-Dance-Music-From-The-Renaissance-And-Early-Baroque-On-The-Organ-By-Esaias-Compen

This is incredible, thank you! I don't know what to make of it, I think some of it is transcendently beautiful... I'm totally convinced by Lena Jacobson I think

[cheregi]

On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 9:35:26 AM UTC+8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> I'll probably be out of commission -- other
> than short comments like this -- for a few months....

Your longer-form writings will be missed!

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <5d31ba19-790e-44d2...@googlegroups.com>,

cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Your longer-form writings will be missed!

Thanks for the message. Hopefully I'll be settled again before too
long....

[cheregi]

I know this is old news for everybody else but after the last ~hour listening to Moroney I'm finally starting to 'get' Byrd. I think the mistake I made in the past was to start with the fantasies, which I usually hear as bewilderingly technical, but this time I'm really fixated on the galliard-pavane sets, I love the 'ponderous-playfulness' feeling and the queasy medieval-seeming pseudo-major feeling... there is a, like, arcane directness, like something is being stated very clearly but the thing being stated is complex enough to demand various arbitrary-seeming left turns, I don't know

[Mandryka]

On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 9:18:26 AM UTC, cheregi wrote:
> I know this is old news for everybody else but after the last ~hour listening to Moroney I'm finally starting to 'get' Byrd. I think the mistake I made in the past was to start with the fantasies, which I usually hear as bewilderingly technical, but this time I'm really fixated on the galliard-pavane sets, I love the 'ponderous-playfulness' feeling and the queasy medieval-seeming pseudo-major feeling... there is a, like, arcane directness, like something is being stated very clearly but the thing being stated is complex enough to demand various arbitrary-seeming left turns, I don't know

There are some very complex contrapuntal pavans by Byrd -- Quadran, 7th and 8th.
This Pavan/Galliard genre was quite a big thing in the UK at the time -- Bull wrote a set too, which as far as I know only Joseph Payne has recorded as a sequence.
Moroney asserted that they're peak Byrd in the essay he wrote for his first recording. For me peak Byrd is probably the A minor fantasia.

[cheregi]

That fantasia is exactly the kind of thing I feel I should appreciate much more than I actually do when I listen to it!

Does Moroney talk about whether the pavan/galliard sets were actually meant for dancing? I've wondered this.

[Mandryka]

I don't have the booklet any more, and can't remember. Oliver Neighbour, in his book on Byrd, says that "Although Byrd clearly conceived his pavans and galliards primarily as abstract compositions rather than dance music, various formal elements . . . derive from the types of consort dance current during his earlier years." That was published in 1978, so probably well out of date.

Willi Apel is excellent on this music, if you can get a copy of his book on keyboard music to 1700, snap it up.

[Mandryka]

Listen to Glen Wilson playing the fantasias, not Moroney - especially the hexachord fantasia.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <094a24db-b77c-4d11...@googlegroups.com>,

Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Listen to Glen Wilson playing the fantasias, not Moroney - especially
>the hexachord fantasia.

Moroney definitely doesn't feature the fantasias, and I generally
wish he'd used only harpsichords for the set, but I still prefer
most of his readings. (His BK58 is excellent.) Wilson's program
presentation is great, in terms of pairing with preludes etc., but
his interpretations are distant & ponderous. I enjoy his Spanish
& Italian albums more.

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <77ae519e-f972-492c...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Monday, October 16, 2023 at 10:56:31 PM UTC+1, steve...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Any thoughts about Kit Armstrong's recording of Byrd and Bull
>> on DG?
>If you're interested in piano then try Daniel Ben Pienaar's Byrd
>CD - released this year.

Pienaar's is an idiosyncratic pianism, not really projecting the
resonance of the instrument.... Armstrong has some similarities
in this repertory, as both use quick skittery fingers, sort of
hovering over the keys -- apparetnly an attempt to compensate for
not having the rebound of a harpsichord for the various fast runs.
(And Pienaar has also released a complete Gibbons.) For a more
rounded pianism, as I've mentioned before, Alan Feinberg is probably
the most accomplished in his album of Bull & Byrd for Steinway....

[Mandryka]

This is what I wrote about the hexachord Fantasia in 2019, I listened to Wilson last night in fact, and I liked it very much.

A fluid, moving, noble and intense interpretation of Byrd's fantasie on ut re mi fa sol la, the slowest harpsichord performance on record I know, and I think that Wilson's gamble there paid off. In particular the tempo lets me appreciate the beauty of the dissonant section in the middle.

Wilson's approach is more melodic than contrapuntal, that's to say, he makes the left and right hand music align smoothly, and you don't sense much by way of tensions and collisions between the voices like for example, Richard Egarr and Eliizabeth Farr on harpsichord on the same piece. I suppose it's a case of swings and roundabouts. What you gain in melodiousness and sweetness you lose in complexity and tension.

[cheregi]

Comparing Wilson and Moroney in the hexachord fantasia before reading this, I found myself agreeing with Todd - distant and ponderous. But I really like your analysis and will continue to let it simmer. More broadly comparing Moroney, Hogwood, Farr, and Wilson in Byrd, it's really hard to avoid the feeling that Moroney lives and breathes this music on a level far beyond what is expected of EM performers. I keep returning to 'life-affirming' as a description of Byrd's or for example Jenkins' music - tonight I appreciated Spirit of Gambos' Jenkins consort recordings much more than I had in the past. Now I'm listening to the minute-long audio samples of Moroney in works from M.R.N. Couperin's keyboard tablature book, and I'm finding something sort of bleakly depressing about the dances - not quite abstract enough to be thinking/listening-music, but also not quite danceable except in a hopelessly stiff way. After spending a lot of time listening to the dance-based portions of the Ottoman and Persian classical repertoires, I no longer feel like this problem ("rhythmic interpretation of dance-based baroque keyboard music") has been solved in a satisfactory way. And it affects the French composers more than the English of course, but I'm including Byrd's pavan-galliard sets here too.

[Mandryka]

Have you heard the Japanese jazzzer Atsushi Sakai? This sort of thing -- I love it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1aW_Z_4e1g

[Mandryka]

And re French keyboard music, I’ll kill some time mentioning some performances which caught my imagination

1. Francois Couperin. Leonhardt (both recordings, they’re quite different from each other) and Asperen - Francois Couperin is only at the top because I listened to his stuff last week.
2. Louis Couperin Hogwood, Asperen - the latest recordings, Leonhardt. Glen Wilson for the preludes.
3. Forqueray - Koopman. Leonhardt’s last - called something like “the bliss and pain of the baroque.”
4. D’Anglebert - Barbara Maria Willi Vol 1 (Vol 2 much less so for some reason.)
5. Lully - Brigitte Tramier (Les Songes d’Athis)
6. Karen Flint
7. Louis Marchand - no one , boring music
8. Jacquet de la Guerre - anyone - the music’s so nice it’s unspoilable.
9. Duphly - Leonhardt
10. Lebêgue - Dunno - I find it quite challenging music actually.
11. Rameau - Dunno, can’t think.
12. Compilation - Colin Tilney “French Dances” - this one

[Mandryka]

I should have said harpsichord music, not keyboard music. There’s a fabulous world of organ music to think about too.

[Mandryka]

6 Chambonnières - Karen Flint Don’t know how that got deleted.

[Paolo Pesenti]

On Wednesday, November 15, 2023 at 1:53:07 PM UTC-5, Mandryka wrote:
> 6 Chambonnières - Karen Flint Don’t know how that got deleted.

Sempé 1992 is my reference for Chambonnières. Wonderful instrument beautifully recorded. The Chaconne in F is an easy highlight

[Mandryka]

Yes I agree it's lovely and maybe his best recording for me.

The reason I mentioned Flint is that her survey is much larger, and it revealed to me that there's a lot of excellent music by Chambonnieres which is not on the Sempe CD. These pieces may be in Baumont's set -- I don't know it very well apart from the duets with Claire Antonini - which I love!

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <ugk2dc$eka$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,

Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:

>Alamire has released (on "Inventa") a new recording of his _Songs
>of sundrie natures_ (1589). A new reading of the complete _Psalms,
>songs and sonnets_ (1611) seems like a reasonable ask....

I'm still hopeful the latter will appear.

The Byrd year seems to be going out with a whimper, though....
Maybe more will follow.