RMCR Ten Years Ago

[JohnGavin]

Can you remember how things were 10 years ago at this newsgroup?
There were quite a few posters with a deep knowledge of recordings,
and of music. One could really learn from Simon Roberts, Eric
Schissel and many others- and it was a pleasure to read their posts
and exchange thoughts with them, because they shared their knowledge
generously and with the kindness one would expect from this type of
forum. Occasionally noted performers would pop in and share their
opinions, people like Carlo Grante and Sergei Shepkin.

Why have things fallen so far in such a short amount of time? It
seems that so many of the really outstanding and civil contributors
have ended their participation. Or perhaps they lurk as readers, only
to be put off from further participation by reading some of the most
mean-spirited and unwarranted responses, as well as highly personal
attacks, which now occur on a regular basis.

What good is a wealth of knowledge, whether actual or self-proclaimed,
if it is shared in an off-putting, and often cruel fashion? There
must be some way to bring the level of civility back up from the
appallingly low levels it has reached here.

This rudeness and meanness is very contagious as well. One
participant is treated rudely, and therefore becomes defensive and
angry. It is making the experience of posting here no longer worth
the effort.

[O]

In article
<143056db-be3f-4fd8...@o15g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,

There is only one way to improve the newsgroup: Post better articles.

By better I mean to not take part in the personal attacks, and to not
give that person a sounding board by which to continue them. The kid
in the schoolyard who got picked on the most by the bullies was the kid
that responded the most. By "calling out" posters who annoy you, you
invite the bully to continue the meanness and rudeness. They will only
go away when no one responds to them anymore. You want someone to go
away from this group, then never respond to them again. Whether this
means you have to use a killfile or just better judgement is up to you,
but the former removes a lot of the temptation.

Imagine if you posted and no one ever responded. How much would you
continue to post? Now imagine you get joy from verbally abusing other
posters. What would give you the most pleasure?

The solution is clear. We all have the means of making this a better
place in our hands. Whether we choose to use them or not is up to us.
One thing for sure is that the remedy for a personal attack isn't
another one.

-Owen

[Mark S]

It's not like the online rudeness is confined to this ng. Ever check
out a news story on Yahoo? The comments are full of overtly racist
remarks that make comments in this ng seem mild in comparison.

Ten years ago the internet was newer, and people were a bit more
circumspect about what they would post. You didn't know if a comment
could get you in trouble with the law or whoever. Eventually, posters
to rmcr realized that the rest of the world had no interest in the
psychotic babbling that infested their elitist cocoon, and open season
was tacitly declared on decorum.

Yes, many have left. I took a 3-year hiatus myself because I was fed
up with the shitfest. I often wonder why I bothered to return. The
early years in this ng were much more enjoyable as far as the range
and depth of topics discussed, fueled by what was happening in the
classical CD recording industry in their heady days. IIRC, people
posting vitriolic/spam/trolling posts were called out by everybody in
the ng. It wasn't like the person under attack had to fend for
themselves, as it is today.

The world has changed and so has this ng. I don't see it ever
returning to the level of civility it once enjoyed. We live in the age
of tweets, not treatises. It's the zeitgeist to post hundreds of
unmemorable 5-word slams and gotchas, rather than offering one 500-
word post of real merit. The time it would take to read such a thing
would impinge on the time necessary to pen 20 or so meaningless 5-word
"F-you"s.

I feel your pain. Rather than yearning for a past that ain't coming
back any time soon, it seems we all need to slog through this rough
patch. Sort of the way artists need to slog through those times when
their country is at war, when art takes a back seat to the wider
world.

At the end of the day, all one can do is account for oneself. Perhaps
the first step back to a more-civil ng is for the individual poster to
set a high standard for themselves and stick to it, no matter who
attacks them. But it's hard to stay when the invective is flowing.
Most just choose to leave.

[Bob Harper]

If one particular 'contributor' were to vanish from these screens
forever, I rather suspect things would improve dramatically, and many of
those who no longer show up would return to the enthusiastic welcome of
the rest of us here.

Bob Harper

[herman]

September 12th, a year ago, Mario Taboada, died.

He'd gotten to hate RMCR, migrated to 'Classical Recordings' (say,
Kirk's place) and was pretty much the defining poster there.

One of the most generous persons I never met. RIP.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:ao5aq.192138$k33.46057@en-nntp-
13.dc1.easynews.com:

> If one particular 'contributor' were to vanish from these screens forever,
> I rather suspect things would improve dramatically, and many of those who
> no longer show up would return to the enthusiastic welcome of the rest of
> us here.

I can think of two to whom I could fit that characterization for sure, and
two more "maybes." There are a few others I decline to read because of the
high insult level, but they don't get to the level of those other four. If I
had to settle for just one of them to exit, I know exactly who that would be.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[Christopher Webber]

On 08/09/2011 17:07, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> I can think of two to whom I could fit that characterization for sure, and
> two more "maybes." There are a few others I decline to read because of the
> high insult level, but they don't get to the level of those other four. If I
> had to settle for just one of them to exit, I know exactly who that would be.

Quite. The real Problem Poster is not the person who posts consistently
loony tunes, but the one who suckers others in with some
reasonable-sounding responses, before letting rip with the insults. It's
like having a rabid dog around, gentle as a kitten much of the time to
most people, but unpredictably lethal.

We give such a troll the "benefit of doubt", get locked into "debate"
for their cruel amusement, get hurt and defensive, and feel the evil
poison spreading to yet another potentially interesting thread.

Much of it is boredom. Trolls seem to have endless time on their hands,
and like to spice it up by bolstering their self-esteem at someone
else's expense. But these trolls are damned difficult to deal with, when
most people are trying to stay kind and polite.

As we know, sterile moderated groups are not the answer either. The
sadness is, that the likes of Klaus Heymann and Robert von Bahr won't be
back here. Ever. So we won't find out what they're up to through the ng,
let alone be able to lobby for what we think they might like to get up
to in the future.

I can't remember when I last learned anything about what was going on in
the industry from the ng, which is a sad decline.
--
Christopher Webber, London, UK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Webber
ZARZUELA.NET

[herman]

On 8 sep, 19:26, Christopher Webber <zarzu...@zarzuela.invalid.net>
wrote:

>
> As we know, sterile moderated groups are not the answer either. The
> sadness is, that the likes of Klaus Heymann and Robert von Bahr won't be
> back here. Ever. So we won't find out what they're up to through the ng,
> let alone be able to lobby for what we think they might like to get up
> to in the future.
>

And I can tell you for sure it's not because of Michael but because of
Antsy, and other weirdos.

Strong opinions? Too bad. But that's not the same as sheer lunacy.

[Gerard]

herman wrote:
> On 8 sep, 19:26, Christopher Webber <zarzu...@zarzuela.invalid.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > As we know, sterile moderated groups are not the answer either. The
> > sadness is, that the likes of Klaus Heymann and Robert von Bahr
> > won't be back here. Ever. So we won't find out what they're up to
> > through the ng, let alone be able to lobby for what we think they
> > might like to get up to in the future.
> >
> And I can tell you for sure it's not because of Michael but because of
> Antsy, and other weirdos.

I don't think that you can tell so for sure.
But maybe Chrisdtopher can tell us as far as Klaus Heymann is involved (as I
recall that he wrote very recently that he had an interview with him).

>
> Strong opinions? Too bad. But that's not the same as sheer lunacy.

Nor is it the same as endlessly insulting.

[herman]

On 8 sep, 20:31, "Gerard" <ghe_nospam_ndrik...@hotmail.com> wrote:


>
> > And I can tell you for sure it's not because of Michael but because of
> > Antsy, and other weirdos.
>
> I don't think that you can tell so for sure.

If you're a non-dedicated, non-paying visitor, and you look at RMCR,
what you see is a bunch of sneaker and porn spams, and three or four
Antsy items, every day. Antsy regards this place is his weblog, plain
and simple.

Most people will move on.

[Gerard]

But that's not the rudeness and meanness the OP was talking about.

[O]

In article
<7d98fc7a-fd3d-4836...@d12g2000vba.googlegroups.com>,

Yet we're all still here.

In spite of our usual collection of idiots (to quote Mad magazine), we
still manage to get a whole lot of posts to our group, and a good
portion of them even have on-topic content.

Now we can all complain about it, but there's nothing to be done about
it. If you want a moderated group, go to Kirk's group. If you want
the freedom and anarchy of the internet, stay here. But don't think
you can change it to something nobler and better. You can't stop
anyone from posting anything. That's the full gist of it. There's no
"abuse" mechanism, and "calling someone out" (whatever that means,
usually to insult them back) just makes the problems worse. In fact,
all you can affect is what *you* post. Everybody gets treated the
same, ignored the same. All that makes a difference is how each person
reacts, because you cannot control what someone else posts. You can
only control yourself.

There are tools like killfiles and filters that can make your reading
experience much more pleasant. Or, you can complain that you have to
use them and add to the noise. It's completely up to you.

-Owen, who would like to point out that 10 years ago, people were
complaining about the same things.

[Rich]

On Sep 8, 8:04 am, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Can you remember how things were 10 years ago at this newsgroup?

Yes.Do you remember the reaction of this group to the events leading
up to the Iraq War? I recall some monster threads from that time. And
people talk about OT topics today! There were some particularly ugly
confrontations over that business, and many folks vanished from the
halls of RMCR during that time. Some power posters left because the
"well ran dry". What's left to be said about the Liszt sonata or
Herbert von Karajan?

Rich

[M forever]

You are obviously talking about Deacon, but it's not just him, it's
also people who travel in his wake and who kind of team up with him,
in other words, people like you who preach about high standards of
behavior but who don't apply those standards to themselves and to a
few other posters they have chosen as "allies", a select group of
pretty pointless individuals who don't contribute much here apart from
egging each other on. And you are one of the front men of that group,
with all your meddling in the exchanges between other people, just to
snipe from the sidelines and get in a quick passive-aggressive insult.
Also, your non-replies which just snip&snipe aren't exactly model
behavior either.
And that's fine, we all have our idiosyncrasies. The problem really is
only hypocrites like you who act as if they were above all that. While
you are bottom feeding most of the time.

[Roger Kulp]

Killfiles are stupid.Manually adding one name after another,or one
email address at a time,is more trouble than it's worth.Especially
when there is too much vileness to block in the first place.I'd have
to killfile all but a couple of people here.Yes ten years ago people
were complaining about the same thing,but there was a lot less of it
here then,than there is now.That's the problem.

In the last ten years,people as a whole have gotten
meaner,nastier,cruder,and more foul mouthed.RCMR is just a microcosm
of society as a whole.

I am thinking of leaving here myself.Other than the all too rare
posts from Don Tait,there is very little of value at RCMR any
more.Only a lot of very childish and mean spirited fighting and name
calling,I don't even read 99% of the posts anymore.I have enough
garbage to deal with from my worsening medical problems,that to have
to read stuff like this.


Roger

[M forever]

On Sep 8, 11:21 am, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article
> <143056db-be3f-4fd8-979a-78f638e6a...@o15g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Can you remember how things were 10 years ago at this newsgroup?
> > There were quite a few posters with a deep knowledge of recordings,
> > and of music.  One could really learn from Simon Roberts, Eric
> > Schissel and many others- and it was a pleasure to read their posts
> > and exchange thoughts with them, because they shared their knowledge
> > generously and with the kindness one would expect from this type of
> > forum.  Occasionally noted performers would pop in and share their
> > opinions, people like Carlo Grante and Sergei Shepkin.
>
> > Why have things fallen so far in such a short amount of time?  It
> > seems that so many of the really outstanding and civil contributors
> > have ended their participation.  Or perhaps they lurk as readers, only
> > to be put off from further participation by reading some of the most
> > mean-spirited and unwarranted responses, as well as highly personal
> > attacks, which now occur on a regular basis.
>
> > What good is a wealth of knowledge, whether actual or self-proclaimed,
> > if it is shared in an off-putting, and often cruel fashion?  There
> > must be some way to bring the level of civility back up from the
> > appallingly low levels it has reached here.
>
> > This rudeness and meanness is very contagious as well.  One
> > participant is treated rudely, and therefore becomes defensive and
> > angry.  It is making the experience of posting here no longer worth
> > the effort.
>
> There is only one way to improve the newsgroup:  Post better articles.

I agree. The important question here is: *Can you* post better
articles?

Can you post articles which contain information interesting for other
posters and points which are worth discussing, and which you can make
and back up without completely falling apart when someone questions or
challenges those points with different arguments?

> By better I mean to not take part in the personal attacks, and to not
> give that person a sounding board by which to continue them.  The kid
> in the schoolyard who got picked on the most by the bullies was the kid
> that responded the most.  By "calling out" posters who annoy you, you
> invite the bully to continue the meanness and rudeness.  They will only
> go away when no one responds to them anymore.  You want someone to go
> away from this group, then never respond to them again.  Whether this
> means you have to use a killfile or just better judgement is up to you,
> but the former removes a lot of the temptation.  
>
> Imagine if you posted and no one ever responded.  How much would you
> continue to post?

Depends. If you are Gerard, then you would continue posting just as
much and you would keep changing your ID in order to escape killfiles.

> Now imagine you get joy from verbally abusing other
> posters.  What would give you the most pleasure?  
>
> The solution is clear.  We all have the means of making this a better
> place in our hands.  Whether we choose to use them or not is up to us.
> One thing for sure is that the remedy for a personal attack isn't
> another one.

So why then do you choose that "remedy" so often?

[herman]

On 8 sep, 20:58, "Gerard" <ghe_nospam_ndrik...@hotmail.com> wrote:


>
> But that's not the rudeness and meanness the OP was talking about.

That may be true, but it is not the kind of look thatattracts a lot of
newcomers.

Apart from that, I agree with Owen. The best way is not to respond to
trolls.

[M forever]

Uh, Herman...you just did. You just responded to the #1 troll and
spammer on this forum, the only poster who constantly comments on
everything and who constantly changes his his ID in order to escape
the many, many killfiles he is in. Well, OK, Ansermetniac does that,
too, but he doesn't comment on everything and anything like Gerard
does in his many manifestations.

[Gerard]

Hm. There you go. Suggesting that he cannot.

>
> Can you post articles which contain information interesting for other
> posters and points which are worth discussing, and which you can make
> and back up without completely falling apart when someone questions or
> challenges those points with different arguments?

What about posts that are not interesting for *YOU* but interesting for other
posters?
There are plenty of possibilities that way.

>
> > By better I mean to not take part in the personal attacks, and to
> > not give that person a sounding board by which to continue them.
> > The kid in the schoolyard who got picked on the most by the bullies
> > was the kid that responded the most. By "calling out" posters who
> > annoy you, you invite the bully to continue the meanness and
> > rudeness. They will only go away when no one responds to them
> > anymore. You want someone to go away from this group, then never
> > respond to them again. Whether this means you have to use a
> > killfile or just better judgement is up to you, but the former
> > removes a lot of the temptation.
> >
> > Imagine if you posted and no one ever responded. How much would you
> > continue to post?
>
> Depends. If you are Gerard, then you would continue posting just as
> much and you would keep changing your ID in order to escape killfiles.
>
> > Now imagine you get joy from verbally abusing other
> > posters. What would give you the most pleasure?
> >
> > The solution is clear. We all have the means of making this a better
> > place in our hands. Whether we choose to use them or not is up to
> > us. One thing for sure is that the remedy for a personal attack
> > isn't another one.
>
> So why then do you choose that "remedy" so often?

QED

[Kevin N]

On Sep 8, 2:06 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 8 sep, 19:26, Christopher Webber <zarzu...@zarzuela.invalid.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > As we know, sterile moderated groups are not the answer either. The
> > sadness is, that the likes of Klaus Heymann and Robert von Bahr won't be
> > back here. Ever. So we won't find out what they're up to through the ng,
> > let alone be able to lobby for what we think they might like to get up
> > to in the future.
>
> And I can tell you for sure it's not because of Michael but because of
> Antsy, and other weirdos.

The other weirdos principally being Gerard and Deacon. If those Three
Stooges of RMCR were to pack up and leave forever, the overall quality
and S/N ratio of this Newsgroup would improve by an order of
magnitude; life would seep back.

> Strong opinions? Too bad. But that's not the same as sheer lunacy.

Bingo! If the weirdos left, it wouldn't be the end of lengthy OT
threads, flame wars, etc. I've learned more from Michael's posts about
performance practices, orchestration, conducting than any other
contributor here. So what if he can be downright nasty - it's actually
rather amusing IMHO to see him kick around the above-named Stooges.

[Christopher Webber]

On 08/09/2011 20:51, Roger Kulp wrote:
> .I have enough
> garbage to deal with from my worsening medical problems,that to have
> to read stuff like this.

Very sorry to hear that things are not going well for you, Roger. I hope
that music at least is able to alleviate this somewhat. My best wishes.

[wkasimer]

On Sep 8, 11:21 am, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:

> By better I mean to not take part in the personal attacks, and to not
> give that person a sounding board by which to continue them.  The kid
> in the schoolyard who got picked on the most by the bullies was the kid
> that responded the most.  By "calling out" posters who annoy you, you
> invite the bully to continue the meanness and rudeness.  They will only
> go away when no one responds to them anymore.  You want someone to go
> away from this group, then never respond to them again.  

The problem is that there are too many of them, and they respond to
each other.

Bill

[herman]

On 8 sep, 22:19, Kevin N <bossk...@gmail.com> wrote:


> The other weirdos principally being Gerard and Deacon. If those Three
> Stooges of RMCR were to pack up and leave forever, the overall quality
> and S/N ratio of this Newsgroup would improve by an order of
> magnitude; life would seep back.

Sorry, Deacon is not some kind of Antsy. He may be wrong sometimes -
we all are - but he's not a spammer.

Also, TD talks about music.

In that case Tepper, with his unceasing self-referring zero-funny
humor would be Stooge nr 3

[Gerard]

But a Stooge with a keeper!

[M forever]

On Sep 8, 2:06 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 8 sep, 19:26, Christopher Webber <zarzu...@zarzuela.invalid.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > As we know, sterile moderated groups are not the answer either. The
> > sadness is, that the likes of Klaus Heymann and Robert von Bahr won't be
> > back here. Ever. So we won't find out what they're up to through the ng,
> > let alone be able to lobby for what we think they might like to get up
> > to in the future.
>
> And I can tell you for sure it's not because of Michael but because of
> Antsy, and other weirdos.

Probably true. I always got along well with RvB, and we also exchanged
some private emails. I am a big fan of his work.

[Dave Cook]

On 2011-09-08, Kevin N <boss...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The other weirdos principally being Gerard and Deacon.

Gerard wouldn't be a problem if he didn't keep changing his email to
get around killfiles.

Deacon wouldn't be a problem if there weren't still a few posters who
insist on engaging with him, either to needle him or to suck up to
him.

Dave Cook

[Dave Cook]

On 2011-09-08, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Also, TD talks about music.
>
> In that case Tepper, with his unceasing self-referring zero-funny
> humor would be Stooge nr 3

Tepper has been here since I can remember (at least 15 or 16 years, I
think), and he's *always been the same*. The deterioration of the
group can't be blamed on Tepper. I know several people who left
because they could not abide TD.

Dave Cook

[M forever]

On Sep 8, 5:45 pm, Dave Cook <davec...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 2011-09-08, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Also, TD talks about music.
>
> > In that case Tepper, with his unceasing self-referring zero-funny
> > humor would be Stooge nr 3
>
> Tepper has been here since I can remember (at least 15 or 16 years, I
> think), and he's *always been the same*.

I assume the jokes have also always been the same?

[wagnerfan]

"Dave Cook" <dave...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:4e693765$0$32662$c3e8da3$7649...@news.astraweb.com...

Exactly right - Deacon is the primary reason for the deterioration of this
board. When astute posters realized it just wasn't worth the trouble to have
to slog through his bile filled crap. they gave up. You can blame others
including myself for adding to his inanities but no question that creature
is the main reason. Wagner Fan

[Bob Harper]

Amen. A fine, intelligent man, and a class act in every respect.

Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

On 9/8/11 9:07 AM, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Bob Harper<bob.h...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:ao5aq.192138$k33.46057@en-nntp-
> 13.dc1.easynews.com:
>
>> If one particular 'contributor' were to vanish from these screens forever,
>> I rather suspect things would improve dramatically, and many of those who
>> no longer show up would return to the enthusiastic welcome of the rest of
>> us here.
>
> I can think of two to whom I could fit that characterization for sure, and
> two more "maybes." There are a few others I decline to read because of the
> high insult level, but they don't get to the level of those other four. If I
> had to settle for just one of them to exit, I know exactly who that would be.
>

I should add that I have been guilty of being part of the noise myself,
having responded sometimes when I should have left posts unanswered/ignored.

Bob Harper

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"wagnerfan" <ivanm...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:OTaaq.23124$WS.1...@news.usenetserver.com:

> Exactly right - Deacon is the primary reason for the deterioration of
> this board. When astute posters realized it just wasn't worth the
> trouble to have to slog through his bile filled crap. they gave up. You
> can blame others including myself for adding to his inanities but no
> question that creature is the main reason. Wagner Fan

Agreed.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Dave Cook <dave...@nowhere.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:4e693550$0$2079$c3e8da3$a9097924
@news.astraweb.com:

> On 2011-09-08, Kevin N <boss...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The other weirdos principally being Gerard and Deacon.
>
> Gerard wouldn't be a problem if he didn't keep changing his email to
> get around killfiles.

As I've said, it's easy to do in Xnews. You need never read his posts
again.

> Deacon wouldn't be a problem if there weren't still a few posters who
> insist on engaging with him, either to needle him or to suck up to him.

Amen.

[Bob Harper]

On 9/8/11 6:38 PM, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> "wagnerfan"<ivanm...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:OTaaq.23124$WS.1...@news.usenetserver.com:
>
>> Exactly right - Deacon is the primary reason for the deterioration of
>> this board. When astute posters realized it just wasn't worth the
>> trouble to have to slog through his bile filled crap. they gave up. You
>> can blame others including myself for adding to his inanities but no
>> question that creature is the main reason. Wagner Fan
>
> Agreed.
>

No. Tom can be a pain, and nasty, no question. But he's not particularly
serious, and is mercifully brief. For offensiveness at interminable
length, with the result that this group has been damaged possibly beyond
repair (except by his departure), no one matches A Certain Other Poster.

Bob Harper

[M forever]

Another prime example for your sanctimoniousness. Oh yes, you are
"guilty", too, but only guilty of just sometimes not resisting the
temptation when others challenge you. And while you do know better,
you innocent little lamb just fall prey to the temptation sometimes
because you really mean so well, you really just want to be a shining
example of civility. Alas, you don't *always* live up to those saintly
standards...

The reality is completely different. Most of the time you aren't even
part of the discussion. The temptation you can't resist is simply that
of inserting yourself into the discussion in order to snip&snipe from
the sidelines. Nothing saintly about that, just pure assholiness.

[M forever]

On Sep 8, 9:54 pm, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 9/8/11 6:38 PM, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:> "wagnerfan"<ivanmax...@yahoo.com>  appears to have caused the following
> > letters to be typed innews:OTaaq.23124$WS.1...@news.usenetserver.com:

>
> >> Exactly right - Deacon is the primary reason for the deterioration of
> >> this board. When astute posters realized it just wasn't worth the
> >> trouble to have to slog through his bile filled crap. they gave up. You
> >> can blame others including myself for adding to his inanities but no
> >> question that creature is the main reason.   Wagner Fan
>
> > Agreed.
>
> No. Tom can be a pain, and nasty, no question. But he's not particularly
> serious, and is mercifully brief. For offensiveness at interminable
> length, with the result that this group has been damaged possibly beyond
> repair (except by his departure), no one matches A Certain Other Poster.
>
> Bob Harper

"Mercifully brief" here of course means mercifully for you because the
one and only thing that Deacon and I agree on is that religion in
general and yours in particular is BS but he just mentions that in
passing while I have completely hammered you into the ground on
numerous occasions. So mercifully for you and your sanctimoniousness,
you can ignore that he is just as opposed to organized religion as I
am so you can suck up to him and ally yourself with him on other
occasions. Which just shows once again what a complete hypocrite you
are.

[Paul Goodman]

On 2011-09-08 15:04:44 +0000, JohnGavin said:

> Can you remember how things were 10 years ago at this newsgroup?
> There were quite a few posters with a deep knowledge of recordings,
> and of music. One could really learn from Simon Roberts, Eric
> Schissel and many others- and it was a pleasure to read their posts
> and exchange thoughts with them, because they shared their knowledge
> generously and with the kindness one would expect from this type of
> forum. Occasionally noted performers would pop in and share their
> opinions, people like Carlo Grante and Sergei Shepkin.
>
> Why have things fallen so far in such a short amount of time? It
> seems that so many of the really outstanding and civil contributors
> have ended their participation. Or perhaps they lurk as readers, only
> to be put off from further participation by reading some of the most
> mean-spirited and unwarranted responses, as well as highly personal
> attacks, which now occur on a regular basis.
>
> What good is a wealth of knowledge, whether actual or self-proclaimed,
> if it is shared in an off-putting, and often cruel fashion? There
> must be some way to bring the level of civility back up from the
> appallingly low levels it has reached here.
>
> This rudeness and meanness is very contagious as well. One
> participant is treated rudely, and therefore becomes defensive and
> angry. It is making the experience of posting here no longer worth
> the effort.

This group was different 10 years ago, but the same type of stuff was
going on then and will be going on 10 years from now. I was here when
this group was created (back then you voted on group creation and I
voted against creating this group because I felt that splitting away
from rec.music.classical was a mistake and still do) and there were
classic flame wars then too. People got fed up and left, but they were
replaced by others. That will continue to happen as long as usenet
remains a viable medium. 10 years ago there were posts about how all
the good posters were leaving and 10 years from now the same thing will
happen again.

--
Paul Goodman

[Sol L. Siegel]

Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:424fade2-f2df-4f88-bbc2-
28a7a7...@t30g2000prm.googlegroups.com:

> I feel your pain. Rather than yearning for a past that ain't coming
> back any time soon, it seems we all need to slog through this rough
> patch. Sort of the way artists need to slog through those times when
> their country is at war, when art takes a back seat to the wider
> world.
>
> At the end of the day, all one can do is account for oneself. Perhaps
> the first step back to a more-civil ng is for the individual poster to
> set a high standard for themselves and stick to it, no matter who
> attacks them. But it's hard to stay when the invective is flowing.

With my newsreader program, Xnews, I can usually tell when two
individuals are having a slogfest and simply mark an entire thread
as "read" for that day. That saves me endless time and aggravation.

It also accounts a bit for why I've been perhaps a bit less active
of late: I do try not to say anything unless I think I have something
to say. Whether I succeed...

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

[Allen]

On 9/8/2011 12:26 PM, Christopher Webber wrote:

> On 08/09/2011 17:07, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>> I can think of two to whom I could fit that characterization for sure,
>> and
>> two more "maybes." There are a few others I decline to read because of
>> the
>> high insult level, but they don't get to the level of those other
>> four. If I
>> had to settle for just one of them to exit, I know exactly who that
>> would be.
>

> Quite. The real Problem Poster is not the person who posts consistently
> loony tunes, but the one who suckers others in with some
> reasonable-sounding responses, before letting rip with the insults. It's
> like having a rabid dog around, gentle as a kitten much of the time to
> most people, but unpredictably lethal.
>
> We give such a troll the "benefit of doubt", get locked into "debate"
> for their cruel amusement, get hurt and defensive, and feel the evil
> poison spreading to yet another potentially interesting thread.
>
> Much of it is boredom. Trolls seem to have endless time on their hands,
> and like to spice it up by bolstering their self-esteem at someone
> else's expense. But these trolls are damned difficult to deal with, when
> most people are trying to stay kind and polite.

>
> As we know, sterile moderated groups are not the answer either. The
> sadness is, that the likes of Klaus Heymann and Robert von Bahr won't be
> back here. Ever. So we won't find out what they're up to through the ng,
> let alone be able to lobby for what we think they might like to get up
> to in the future.
>

> I can't remember when I last learned anything about what was going on in
> the industry from the ng, which is a sad decline.
Does anyone have any more or less current information on Robert von
Bahr? The last I saw here was, I'm sure, over a year ago. For the
newcomers, he is/was the founder and owner of BIS who came down with
pancreatic cancer--usually fatal, but apparently he had a type for which
treatment was possible. I certainly hope he made it; of course, we all
have to go some time, but there are more pleasant ways than pancreatic
cancer. I had three friends who were suffering with it at the same time,
and their last few months was horrible.
Allen

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:2leaq.171624$BZ.112813@en-nntp-
03.dc1.easynews.com:

I cannot be shaken from my opinion. If I could select just one poster here
to -- well, let's see, how about, "win the lottery on the condition that he
retire to a desert island with all the amenities and luxuries he likes on
condition that he forever cease all communication with the outside world,"
it would be he, no question.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Allen <all...@austin.rr.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:D6mdnTnM_6ZhDfTT...@giganews.com:

> Does anyone have any more or less current information on Robert von Bahr?
> The last I saw here was, I'm sure, over a year ago. For the newcomers, he
> is/was the founder and owner of BIS who came down with pancreatic
> cancer--usually fatal, but apparently he had a type for which treatment
> was possible. I certainly hope he made it; of course, we all have to go
> some time, but there are more pleasant ways than pancreatic cancer. I had
> three friends who were suffering with it at the same time, and their last
> few months was horrible.

Well, a quick Googling shows that Mr. von Bahr resumed his duties at BIS in
April 2009, and that he was present at the BBC Music Magazine Award
ceremony in April 2010. So there's certainly a possibility that he is
alive and well.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"Sol L. Siegel" <vod...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:Xns9F5AECF12C0...@130.133.4.11:

> With my newsreader program, Xnews, I can usually tell when two
> individuals are having a slogfest and simply mark an entire thread
> as "read" for that day. That saves me endless time and aggravation.

Yes! One of the most useful things about this excellent program.

[David O.]

On Fri, 09 Sep 2011 01:16:58 -0500, "Matthew B. Tepper"
<oy�@earthlink.net> wrote:

>I cannot be shaken from my opinion. If I could select just one poster here
>to -- well, let's see, how about, "win the lottery on the condition that he
>retire to a desert island with all the amenities and luxuries he likes on
>condition that he forever cease all communication with the outside world,"
>it would be he, no question.

WELL THANKS A LOT, Matthew!!!!!!

[Oscar]

On Sep 8, 2:45 pm, Dave Cook wrote:
>
> > In that case Tepper, with his unceasing self-referring zero-funny
> > humor would be Stooge nr 3
>
> Tepper has been here since I can remember (at least 15 or 16 years, I
> think), and he's *always been the same*.  

You can say that again. And again. And again. And again. And
again...

On Nov 23 1996, 1:00 am, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> IMAO, comparing Ofra Harnoy to Janos Starker is rather like comparing
> Pia Zadora with Jack Nicholson. And think about it for a moment --
> Harnoy is essentially Zadora, except with a cello where Meshulam Riklis
> used to be!

On Dec 4 1997, 1:00 am, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> Ofra Harnoy is like Pia Zadora, only with a cello where Meshulam Riklis
> used to be.

On Apr 3 1998, 1:00 am, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> Pia Zadora took up the cello and changed her name to Ofra Harnoy.

On Oct 14 1998, 12:00 am, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> > > This is a bit of a trivial request, but I am after a signed
> > > photograph of her.  Would anyone know a contact/agency address?
>
> > Try the Playboy Mansion...att. Hugh Heffner...I think her photos are
> > there, anyway.
>
> Ofra Harnoy is just Pia Zadora, only with a cello where Meshulam Riklis
> used to be!

On Apr 11 1999, 12:00 am, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> Similarly, I've seen reliable reports that another Doremi release, part
> of a Heifetz series, ripped off the New York Philharmonic's Historic
> Broadcast box for the Brahms Violin Concerto with Toscanini conducting,
> and did a similar blanching job on it as well.  (This included the third
> movement, which had its first-ever release in that NYPO box, hence the
> reasonable guess as to the source.)
>
> With such a batting average, I for one don't feel like spending MY money
> and having it go to Mr. Harnoy (yep, the father of that woman who looks
> like Pia Zadora, only with a cello where Meshulam Riklis used to be).  
> Of course, if YOU want to buy it, be my guest!

On Feb 1 2000, 1:00 am, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> > Just be grateful that OfraHarnoyhas not adopted this ploy.
>
> Ofra Harnoy is just Pia Zadora, only with a cello where Meshulam Riklis
> used to be.

On Jun 19 2002, 1:07 pm, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> Slava looks like his magazine would be Cigar Aficionado, rather than
> Playboy (and I have no idea if he even smokes).
>
> As for Ofra Harnoy, she always reminds me of Pia Zadora, only with a cello
> where Meshulam Riklis used to be.

On Feb 15 2003, 12:04 pm, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> > > I don't know, but you never see them photographed together, do you?
>
> > Are you sure? First I thought it was them: <expired link>
>
> > But maybe you're right.
>
> *cackle*  No, Harnoy looks rather like Zadora, only with a cello where
> Meshulam Riklis used to be.

On May 4 2003, 10:50 pm, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> >> How many little girl cellists in party dresses have been released by
> >> major labels?  Jacqueline Du Pre played out of tune, but I don't
> >> imagine you have her in mind....
>
> > She is no "little girl" but none of the labels she recorded for exactly
> > played down Ofra Harnoy's physical appearance.
>
> To me, Ms. Harnoy looks like Pia Zadora, only with a cello where Meshulam
> Riklis used to be.

On Dec 22 2003, 9:16 pm, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> > > > Or did you mean to ask "whom are you dating for the Holidays?"
>
> > > OfraHarnoy.  I told her to leave her cello at home.
>
> > Are you perhaps afraid of comparisons?
>
> I've been known to compare her to Pia Zadora.

On May 4 2005, 7:50 am, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> > It's difficult to take the article seriously when they make no mention
> > of Ofra Harnoy...
>
> Ah yes, the woman who looks like Pia Zadora, but with a cello where
> Meshulam Riklis used to be.

On Jan 5 2006, 1:15 pm, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> > I wouldn't call Harnoy beautiful.
>
> It all depends on what you like.  I've always thought she looked a bit like
> Pia Zadora, only with a cello where Meshulam Riklis used to be.

On Jan 30 2009, 7:44 pm, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> > Another time, Ofra ]Harnoy was performing before intermission
> > and I told him that she had taken her cello to the dressing room, lit a
> > cigarette and asked the cello "Was it good for you too?" He also quoted
> > that in his review, but nobody complained about that.
>
> I used to say that Harnoy resembles Pia Zadora, "only with a cello where
> Meshulam Riklis [Zadora's ex-husband] used to be."

On Jan 3 2011, 2:17 pm, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> > > Haven't seen that in a long time - yes its right up there with Santa
> > > Claus Conquers the Martians. (I wonder if the the story about Pia
> > > Zadora is true - apparently she was appearing in a production of Diary
> > > of Anne Frank and was so bad that when the Nazis came on stage,
> > > someone in the audience stood up and shouted "She's in the
> > > attic!!!")
>
> > As with many truly great stories, it wasn't true. Zadora wasn't in such
> > a production. (Don't stop telling the story. A disclaimer is sufficient.)
>
> I used to say of Zadora that she looked rather like OfraHarnoy, only with
> Meshulam Riklis instead of a cello.

<end>

[Gerard]

Congratulations!
The expected clich�s in only 3 sentences!

[Gerard]

Obviously he is envious because of not being at such a place like that cello.

[Ian]

Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Dave Cook <dave...@nowhere.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:4e693550$0$2079$c3e8da3$a9097924
> @news.astraweb.com:
>
> > On 2011-09-08, Kevin N <boss...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The other weirdos principally being Gerard and Deacon.
> >
> > Gerard wouldn't be a problem if he didn't keep changing his email to
> > get around killfiles.
>
> As I've said, it's easy to do in Xnews. You need never read his posts
> again.

Indeed, you have said so many times (see the post about Ofra Harnoy).
But actually you have read his posts many times again, just because of XNews.

[Oscar]

On Sep 9, 12:07 am, Ian wrote:
>
> > > Gerard wouldn't be a problem if he didn't keep changing his email to
> > > get around killfiles.
>
> > As I've said, it's easy to do in Xnews.  You need never read his posts
> > again.
>
> Indeed, you have said so many times (see the post about Ofra Harnoy).

Unfortunately, he won't see it -- I'm plonked.

[Peter Voormolen]

M forever wrote:
>
> Another prime example for your sanctimoniousness. Oh yes, you are
> "guilty", too, but only guilty of just sometimes not resisting the
> temptation when others challenge you. And while you do know better,
> you innocent little lamb just fall prey to the temptation sometimes
> because you really mean so well, you really just want to be a shining
> example of civility. Alas, you don't *always* live up to those saintly
> standards...
>
> The reality is completely different. Most of the time you aren't even
> part of the discussion. The temptation you can't resist is simply that
> of inserting yourself into the discussion in order to snip&snipe from
> the sidelines. Nothing saintly about that, just pure assholiness.

That last sentence - and only that one - is correct, but only when applied to
you (as everyone simply can see in the other sentences).

[Bob Harper]

On 9/8/11 11:16 PM, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Bob Harper<bob.h...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:2leaq.171624$BZ.112813@en-nntp-
> 03.dc1.easynews.com:
>
>> On 9/8/11 6:38 PM, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>> "wagnerfan"<ivanm...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
>>> letters to be typed in news:OTaaq.23124$WS.1...@news.usenetserver.com:
>>>
>>>> Exactly right - Deacon is the primary reason for the deterioration of
>>>> this board. When astute posters realized it just wasn't worth the
>>>> trouble to have to slog through his bile filled crap. they gave up. You
>>>> can blame others including myself for adding to his inanities but no
>>>> question that creature is the main reason. Wagner Fan
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>> No. Tom can be a pain, and nasty, no question. But he's not particularly
>> serious, and is mercifully brief. For offensiveness at interminable
>> length, with the result that this group has been damaged possibly beyond
>> repair (except by his departure), no one matches A Certain Other Poster.
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> I cannot be shaken from my opinion. If I could select just one poster here
> to -- well, let's see, how about, "win the lottery on the condition that he
> retire to a desert island with all the amenities and luxuries he likes on
> condition that he forever cease all communication with the outside world,"
> it would be he, no question.
>

I understand, even if I disagree.

Bob Harper

[Adam Dubin]

I've been here for 15 years, off and on. Most probably don't remember
me from years back, as I have kept a low-ish profile and never engaged
in arguments. From the beginnings I've had interests in historical
recordings, but only began to have hands-on experience with them 10
years ago or so.

One person who left quite early on and whom I've missed is James Liu.
He always had intelligent things to say about recordings, and added to
the ng trememdously.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"Ian" <ico...@athome.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in news:12cd0$4e69bb29$53565cf2$21...@cache4.tilbu1.nb.home.nl:

Nope. That's where the "Skip Quoted Text" comes in handy. Yosemite Sam is
still presumably pounding on those glass walls, demanding to be heard.
That doesn't mean that we "varmints" have to listen.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!

Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Adam Dubin <amd...@pol.net> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in news:j4d1ni$qc7$1...@dont-email.me:

I agree; he and Simon Roberts are among the posters, presumably still alive,
whom I miss the most.

[Allen]

On 9/9/2011 1:16 AM, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Allen<all...@austin.rr.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in news:D6mdnTnM_6ZhDfTT...@giganews.com:
>
>> Does anyone have any more or less current information on Robert von Bahr?
>> The last I saw here was, I'm sure, over a year ago. For the newcomers, he
>> is/was the founder and owner of BIS who came down with pancreatic
>> cancer--usually fatal, but apparently he had a type for which treatment
>> was possible. I certainly hope he made it; of course, we all have to go
>> some time, but there are more pleasant ways than pancreatic cancer. I had
>> three friends who were suffering with it at the same time, and their last
>> few months was horrible.
>
> Well, a quick Googling shows that Mr. von Bahr resumed his duties at BIS in
> April 2009, and that he was present at the BBC Music Magazine Award
> ceremony in April 2010. So there's certainly a possibility that he is
> alive and well.
>

I too looked at Google; von Bahr's Wiki bio doesn't mention his death,
so I suppose he is still alive. Thanks.
Allen

[M forever]

Oh, it's you again. No, all of the above is correct, and it actually
applies to you, too. You did exactly the same things a while ago.
Insert yourself into a discussion, post nothing but ad hominem attacks
- like the above, no arguments, only childish backtalking and
parroting. Exactly the same thing. Plus, you also seem to see yourself
in a position to preach, too, ergo you are also sanctimonious no
matter if you are also religious or not.

See how that works? Just coming in and saying "right back at you"
doesn't. If you are older than 10. If you are under 10, the using that
rhetorical device is OK.

[wagnerfan]

"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9F5B4DCC782...@216.168.3.70...

Simon was wonderful but he was very discerning and had no patience for
Deacon's shenanigans - he quickly gave up after he found out he was talking
to a brick wall Wagner fan

[M forever]

On Sep 9, 11:02 am, "wagnerfan" <ivanmax...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy @earthlink.net> wrote in messagenews:Xns9F5B4DCC782...@216.168.3.70...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Adam Dubin <amdu...@pol.net> appears to have caused the following letters
> > to
> > be typed innews:j4d1ni$qc7$1...@dont-email.me:

>
> >> I've been here for 15 years, off and on. Most probably don't remember
> >> me from years back, as I have kept a low-ish profile and never engaged
> >> in arguments. From the beginnings I've had interests in historical
> >> recordings, but only began to have hands-on experience with them 10
> >> years ago or so.
>
> >> One person who left quite early on and whom I've missed is James Liu.
> >> He always had intelligent things to say about recordings, and added to
> >> the ng trememdously.
>
> > I agree; he and Simon Roberts are among the posters, presumably still
> > alive,
> > whom I miss the most.
>
> > --
> > Matthew B. Tepper:  WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
> > Read about "Proty" here:http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
> > To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
> > Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
>
> Simon was wonderful but he was very discerning and had no patience for
> Deacon's shenanigans - he quickly gave up after he found out he was talking
> to a brick wall   Wagner fan

Isn't it funny how everybody says Deacon is the biggest problem here
but his bootlicker Harper keeps defending him?

[wkasimer]

On Sep 9, 10:38 am, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy @earthlink.net> wrote:

> I agree; he and Simon Roberts are among the posters, presumably still alive,
> whom I miss the most.

Simon is very much alive...

Bill

[Bob Harper]

Incorrect. 'Everybody' does not find TD the biggest problem. I do not
defend Tom's excesses; to the contrary, I lament and abhor them. They
demean him quite as much as he intends to demean his targets. To
pretend, however, that I find him as offensive as I, and many others,
find A Certain Other Poster, would be dishonest.

Bob Harper

[John Wiser]

"Gerard" <ghe_nospa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Oscar wrote:
>> On Sep 8, 2:45 pm, Dave Cook wrote:
>> >
>> > > In that case Tepper, with his unceasing self-referring zero-funny
>> > > humor would be Stooge nr 3
>> >
>> > Tepper has been here since I can remember (at least 15 or 16 years,
>> > I think), and he's *always been the same*.
>>
>> You can say that again. And again. And again. And again. And
>> again...

[delete 1996-to-present resumé of Tepperquotes, oh, MOST unkind!]
>
When one has a limited number of quips
and pressure to use up a lot of bytes,
some repetition is inevitable.
Let us resolve to be kinder to Tepper,
He's clearly not a happy person.

JDW

[Ian]

Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> "Ian" <ico...@athome.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in
> news:12cd0$4e69bb29$53565cf2$21...@cache4.tilbu1.nb.home.nl:
>
> > Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> > > Dave Cook <dave...@nowhere.net> appears to have caused the
> > > following letters to be typed in
> > > news:4e693550$0$2079$c3e8da3$a9097924 @news.astraweb.com:
> > >
> > > > On 2011-09-08, Kevin N <boss...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The other weirdos principally being Gerard and Deacon.
> > > >
> > > > Gerard wouldn't be a problem if he didn't keep changing his
> > > > email to get around killfiles.
> > >
> > > As I've said, it's easy to do in Xnews. You need never read his
> > > posts again.
> >
> > Indeed, you have said so many times (see the post about Ofra
> > Harnoy). But actually you have read his posts many times again,
> > just because of XNews.
>
> Nope. That's where the "Skip Quoted Text" comes in handy. Yosemite
> Sam is still presumably pounding on those glass walls, demanding to
> be heard. That doesn't mean that we "varmints" have to listen.

Nope. You have read his posts and you have replied to them.
XNews has a kind of fake kill file.

[Mark S]

On Sep 9, 8:02 am, "wagnerfan" <ivanmax...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Simon was wonderful but he was very discerning and had no patience for
> Deacon's shenanigans - he quickly gave up after he found out he was talking
> to a brick wall   Wagner fan

I never found Simon all that discerning when it came to the nuances
and the nuts and bolts of musical performance. I doubt that I agreed
with his musical tastes - which, to me, never roamed very far from
received opinion - more than 5% of the time. But he was always cordial
in his posts and, AFAIKR, was never a name caller.

[Peter Voormolen]

Oh, that is funny.
You do exactly what you describe above, and then you say that it does not work.
That always has been the case: your bullying does not work.

[wagnerfan]

"Ian" <ico...@athome.com> wrote in message
news:92afe$4e6a3939$53565cf2$18...@cache2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...

>Y
Yes and you have brought this up again and again - what's the problem????
Wagner fan

[Peter Voormolen]

M forever wrote:

> Isn't it funny how everybody says Deacon is the biggest problem here
> but his bootlicker Harper keeps defending him?

Very much funnier is that some people still defend you!
This gives a nice image of those people.

[Alan Cooper]

Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:17df7021-de3b-4759...@r40g2000prf.googlegroups.
com:

He was always cordial, made his tastes in music and performance clear and
explicit
, and had encylopedic knowledge of the recorded history of works that
mattered to him. What more could one ask of a contributor to this newsgroup? I
miss him (along with several others of his ilk, as well as some fine musicians and
industry professionals who used to contribute here).

AC

[Ian]

I have told twice that he reads his posts. Which is not again and again.
I have told one that he replies to them. Not again and again.
What is YOUR problem?
Being a parrot?

[Polluter Politika]

On Sep 8, 4:13 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 8 sep, 20:58, "Gerard" <ghe_nospam_ndrik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> That may be true, but it is not the kind of look that attracts a
lot of
> newcomers.

Newcomers? What newcomers? Few last here as they are quickly
searched, stripped, and "measured" by a host of self proclaimed know-
it-alls who know jackshit about claasical recording and the end
products. Then they turn on poor Tarrifman who is only trying to help
or inform us with new insights into the recorded legacy of Toscanini
and Ansermet by liberatring all their recordings from audio. What is
overlooked by all here is that these wretched uploads can be fixed by
increasing the gain and fixing the fucked up eq problems thereby
"recapturing" the audio that was in these recordings to begin with.

[SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT]

Hmmm. In pianistical matters SR had a very clear personal opinion. His
appreciation of Mustonen, for example, certainly wasn't received opinion
here on RMCR.

Henk

[SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT]

Bob Harper wrote:

> Incorrect. 'Everybody' does not find TD the biggest problem. I do not
> defend Tom's excesses; to the contrary, I lament and abhor them. They
> demean him quite as much as he intends to demean his targets. To
> pretend, however, that I find him as offensive as I, and many others,
> find A Certain Other Poster, would be dishonest.

As long as I've been a member of RMCR (IIRC from 1997 on) there are
complaints about the good ones leaving and the bad ones remaining. Still,
RMCR is one of the best functioning classical music lists on the internet.

RMCR is very good to us pianophiles. We have Dufus!!

Henk

[O]

In article <4e6a4dd8$0$2453$e4fe...@news2.news.xs4all.nl>, HvT <

Exactly. In much the same way as you can pick your friends and pick
your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose, likewise you can't
pick who or what gets posted here.

Once you accept that, you begin to accept this list for what it really
is, and not what you'd like it to be.

All you can do is make your own corner more hospitable.

>
> RMCR is very good to us pianophiles. We have Dufus!!
>

All Hail Dufus!!!

-Owen

[wagnerfan]

"HvT" <hvtuijl- SPAM- @xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:4e6a4b00$0$2547$e4fe...@news2.news.xs4all.nl...

Neither were his opinions on many matters operatic. He could also be very
detailed in his replies in order to prove a point. Wagner fan

[Greg]

On Sep 9, 12:07 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> I never found Simon all that discerning when it came to the nuances
> and the nuts and bolts of musical performance. I doubt that I agreed
> with his musical tastes - which, to me, never roamed very far from
> received opinion - more than 5% of the time. But he was always cordial
> in his posts and, AFAIKR, was never a name caller.

Huh? "Never roamed very far from received opinion?" I can't think of
anyone, here or elsewhere, who was less influenced by "received
opinion". Perhaps you mean something different, but Simon recommended
more great obscure recordings that either hadn't been reviewed
anywhere, or had been poorly reviewed somewhere, than anyone else. By
far. He was/is also uncommonly skilled at explaining what the main
virtues of these recordings are. I can't speak for anyone else, but I
suspect that when most people here lament the absence of certain
valuable past participants, they are thinking of Simon first and
foremost. Not that there aren't others who are also greatly missed,
of course.


To address the broader topic, I think the problem posters here (the
ones who actually drive others away) fall into two categories:

First are those who essentially spam the group with garbage - porn
ads, Ward Hardman insults, etc... I suppose some would put Powell
into this category as well, but at least he talks about music. This
kind of nonsense is annoying, but is actually pretty easy to ignore in
my opinion. I'm sure some sensitive souls were driven away by this
several years ago, but I doubt if that is the main reason most left.

The second group are those who, for whatever reason, mainly are here
to initiate arguments and fling personal insults around. In my
opinion, this group is far more corrosive and damaging to
participation because (1) they ruin on-topic threads again and again,
and (2) they draw otherwise cordial people into episodes of
distracting and infuriating bickering that normal people in life
generally try to avoid. In short, they are provocateurs who take most
of the fun out of hanging out here. And if it isn't fun, why bother
wasting your time in this group? Why bother posting a new thread on
something you find interesting if you know if will just descend into a
flurry of nasty personal insults? Why give an opinion on an existing
thread if there is a pretty good chance someone is going to try to
provoke you into a pointless personal argument for their own
amusement? That's the main reason, I believe, why most people have
left.

Greg

[Gerard]

But an URL poster cannot be compared to Simon Roberts.

[wkasimer]

On Sep 9, 12:07 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I never found Simon all that discerning when it came to the nuances
> and the nuts and bolts of musical performance. I doubt that I agreed
> with his musical tastes - which, to me, never roamed very far from
> received opinion - more than 5% of the time.

"Never roamed far from received opinion"? You must be kidding.
Simon's tastes may not be unique, but they are certainly not
universally held by any means. He has always been willing to take on
the "sacred cows" (the Haydn recordings of Szell and Beecham, just to
give one example).

Bill

[Mark S]

I don't want this to turn into a bash Simon Roberts thread as he is no
longer contributing here and, therefore, can't or won't defend himself
from any such bashing, but let me explain what I meant by my comment
as it goes to the broader issue of musical perceptions that are still
held and discussed in this ng.

To me, SR's opinions seemed to be to be heavily influenced by his
wholesale buying into the marketing points that attended to promoting
HIP recordings and performances. To my way of hearing and thinking, he
usually regurgitated the orthodoxy of the new sacred cow of HIP
performance. Nothing novel there, and certainly reflective of tastes
that are universally held by the segment of the population that buys
into the HIP spin. That heavily influenced his taste in opera and
singing where he just didn't get it about big voices (like Birgit
Nilsson), preferring the smallish-sized voices that - to me - lacked
distinction or individuality. We found agreement in our enjoyment of
Karajan's DG Ring, but beyond that, our tastes were at opposite ends
of the pole in matters operatic.

As far as "taking on sacred cows like Szell and Beecham," well, those
are just more examples of SR not getting what about their performances
was and continues to be so outstanding. Just as certain warhorses are
warhorses for a reason, certain performers become sacred cows in the
least-pejorative sense of the word *for a reason.* SR clearly parted
ways at the stage door with the musical approach of these giants and
many others from the past generation. While that is certainly
unorthodox from the received opinion of most musicians and reviewers,
it isn't so unorthodox when you realize that SR was coming from a
general position of HIP-über-alles. Smallish=good, big-boned=sacred
cow (and therefore, "bad"). SR seemed to reflexively dislike
recordings with a solid bottom end, as if that in and of itself
muddied up the clarity of the overall recording.

I always thought that SR might better enjoy the recordings of Szell
and Beecham if he simply cut the bass gain and turned down the volume.

To be quite honest about it, I never felt I gleaned any particular
insight from SR's posts, mainly for the reasons I cite above. On the
other hand, I find Michael a valuable contributor to this ng on
matters musical, his seemingly endless forays into bashing and name
calling notwithstanding (and I say that as someone who has faced his
ire in the past). Tom Deacon is a person who I highly respect from my
days at PolyGram, and who I know has contributed tremendously to all
of our enjoyment through the dedicated and exceptional work he did on
behalf of classical music during his years at Philips, and who I feel
would be better off not engaging in the flame wars that are now a
disturbing hallmark of this ng.

I would be the first person to welcome SR back to the rmcr fold.
Perhaps he'll return if for no other reason to offer a defense to this
post, which, again, I don't feel that comfortable writing when the man
isn't here to defend himself. The thoughts I've expressed above may be
a bit clouded due to the passage of time. They do, however, reflect my
take-away on SR from the perspective of the now.

[SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT]

RMCR-ers are incomparable.

Henk

[Dave Cook]

On 2011-09-09, Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> To me, SR's opinions seemed to be to be heavily influenced by his
> wholesale buying into the marketing points that attended to promoting
> HIP recordings and performances. To my way of hearing and thinking, he
> usually regurgitated the orthodoxy of the new sacred cow of HIP
> performance.

I don't remember Simon being slavish in any of his opinions on
performances, HIP or not.

Dave Cook

[Matthew B. Tepper]

PLONK, as I often do for habitual liars. Another Yosemite Sam avatar is now
pounding on the glass wall and will probably get all testy at being ignored.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"wagnerfan" <ivanm...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:kksaq.250402$uk3.2...@news.usenetserver.com:

That was one of the best things about his posts, actually.

--

Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011

Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Greg <onei...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in news:772ffbff-3ced-4820-a4a5-4fba901018d7
@y4g2000vbx.googlegroups.com:

> First are those who essentially spam the group with garbage - porn
> ads, Ward Hardman insults, etc... I suppose some would put Powell
> into this category as well, but at least he talks about music. This
> kind of nonsense is annoying, but is actually pretty easy to ignore in
> my opinion. I'm sure some sensitive souls were driven away by this
> several years ago, but I doubt if that is the main reason most left.
>
> The second group are those who, for whatever reason, mainly are here to
> initiate arguments and fling personal insults around. In my opinion,
> this group is far more corrosive and damaging to participation because
> (1) they ruin on-topic threads again and again, and (2) they draw
> otherwise cordial people into episodes of distracting and infuriating
> bickering that normal people in life generally try to avoid. In short,
> they are provocateurs who take most of the fun out of hanging out here.
> And if it isn't fun, why bother wasting your time in this group? Why
> bother posting a new thread on something you find interesting if you know
> if will just descend into a flurry of nasty personal insults? Why give
> an opinion on an existing thread if there is a pretty good chance someone
> is going to try to provoke you into a pointless personal argument for
> their own amusement? That's the main reason, I believe, why most people
> have left.
>
> Greg

That's nothing, NOTHING, compared to the cesspool that is or was
rec.music.opera, at least a few years ago. All too often, one of the
regulars would make a post about opera, or about a particular singer, and
others would immediately jump in with character assassination. The worst
flame war I ever saw there started out with an apology in the subject line!

--

Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011

Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"HvT" <hvtuijl- SPAM- @xs4all.nl> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:4e6a4dd8$0$2453$e4fe...@news2.news.xs4all.nl:

I enjoy Dufus' posts as well. Never has a screen name been less accurate.
He is anything BUT a "doofus" (American slang for a stupid person)!

--

Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
"I don’t think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable
than left-wing social engineering. I don’t think imposing radical
change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free
society to operate. I think we need a national conversation to get
to a better Medicare system with more choices for seniors." Former
Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich on "Meet the Press" 15 May 2011

Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Polluter Politika <polluter...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:b80243c0-75e2-4cc4-9f0f-42bd469775d7
@b10g2000vbz.googlegroups.com:

> Newcomers? What newcomers? Few last here as they are quickly searched,

> stripped, and "measured" by a host of self proclaimed know-it-alls who

> know jackshit about claasical recording and the end products. Then they
> turn on poor Tarrifman who is only trying to help or inform us with new
> insights into the recorded legacy of Toscanini and Ansermet by
> liberatring all their recordings from audio. What is overlooked by all
> here is that these wretched uploads can be fixed by increasing the gain
> and fixing the fucked up eq problems thereby "recapturing" the audio that
> was in these recordings to begin with.

I would be interested to learn if somebody has calculated and devised a re-
EQ curve that would do exactly that.

[Rich]

Henk wrote:

> RMCR-ers are incomparable.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.classical.recordings/browse_thread/thread/50e6a46f926983/4c1140c0a2b204df?hl=en&q=Maazel+Berlioz+Requiem&lnk=ol&

A thread from 1998."What about Lorin Maazel?" .I started it, and the
power posters took off with it. Mark Stenroos has some fun stories
about Lorin Maazel.. David Cook , J. Anthony Movshon, Simon Roberts,
Lani S. etc... Thank goodness it's all archived. I think Mark
Stenroos and Dave Cook were on this group from the very beginning...
Anyway it's a great read.
Rich

[Rich]

>MBT wrote:

> That's nothing, NOTHING, compared to the cesspool that is or was
> rec.music.opera, at least a few years ago.  All too often, one of the
> regulars would make a post about opera, or about a particular singer, and
> others would immediately jump in with character assassination.  The worst
> flame war I ever saw there started out with an apology in the subject line!

Is rec.music.opera still around? I'm afraid to put it up on my
screen. Moons ago I used to visit it to read William Kasimer's
posts. His exasperation with the idiocy over there was pretty funny.
If he weren't an M.D. he'd have been a stand-up comedian.

Rich
>

[wkasimer]

On Sep 9, 4:03 pm, Rich <chongk...@comcast.net> wrote:

> Is rec.music.opera still around?  I'm afraid to put it up on my
> screen.  

Still around, very low volume, and largely pretty civilized. Once the
barbarians chased out the majority of people with something
intelligent to say, the worst offenders got bored and left.
Fortunately, they have not returned.

> Moons ago I used to visit it to read  William Kasimer's
> posts. His exasperation with the idiocy over there was pretty funny.
> If he weren't an M.D. he'd have been a stand-up comedian.

Thanks, I think...

Bill

[jrsnfld]

On Sep 9, 12:43 pm, Dave Cook <davec...@nowhere.net> wrote:

Not slavish, indeed, but nonetheless well defined by a particular
taste which is not so incredibly unusual (anymore). Simon seems to try
a lot more recordings than most people and makes independent
judgments. But Mark is pointing out that his judgments are not out of
keeping with the general HIP tastes of the day, and so somewhat
predictable. Who isn't predictable?

Simon calls them as he sees 'em, often singling out for praise one or
two movements from a performance and then dissing the rest.

I also think Mark gets it wrong here. Just because someone likes
"small" voices doesn't mean he likes "small" performances by
orchestras, or lack of bass. I think most HIPsters cherish clarity
above all, which pushes them toward smallish textures and away from
over-reverberent bass. But they love themselves a big drumthwack
whenever possible. So no, they're not necessarily into "small" and
"quiet".

--Jeff

[wkasimer]

On Sep 9, 3:43 pm, Dave Cook <davec...@nowhere.net> wrote:

> I don't remember Simon being slavish in any of his opinions on
> performances, HIP or not.

Ditto.

Bill

[Gerard]

Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> PLONK, as I often do for habitual liars.

Hm, he is no liar.
But how would you know?

[wkasimer]

On Sep 9, 2:58 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> As far as "taking on sacred cows like Szell and Beecham," well, those
> are just more examples of SR not getting what about their performances
> was and continues to be so outstanding. Just as certain warhorses are
> warhorses for a reason, certain performers become sacred cows in the
> least-pejorative sense of the word *for a reason.* SR clearly parted
> ways at the stage door with the musical approach of these giants and
> many others from the past generation. While that is certainly
> unorthodox from the received opinion of most musicians and reviewers,
> it isn't so unorthodox when you realize that SR was coming from a
> general position of HIP-über-alles. Smallish=good, big-boned=sacred
> cow (and therefore, "bad").

That must be why Simon is so fond of Klemperer's Haydn 102 and
Bernstein's set of the Paris Symphonies...

Bill

[Dufus]

>On Sep 9, 2:53 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy @earthlink.net> wrote:
> "HvT" <hvtuijl-

Kind comments both, indeed appreciated by one who can't hold a candle
( or URL ) to the knowledge,insight of most here, even as to piano ,
let alone other genres, like Sibelius' 4th. Your support almost makes
me blush, and blushing is hard for Iowans to do given we sell people
fried butter , for real money, with a straight face. But then our
Guvnur isn't Rick Perry, nor is Michelle Bachmann our Congressperson,
so we dont have those reasons to be embarrassed.

And double thanks as I can frame your posts to hang in my home for my
wife and sons to read , and enjoy watching their jaws drop !

Regards, Dufus

[Mark S]

On Sep 9, 1:15 pm, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
>SR was coming from a
> > general position of HIP-über-alles. Smallish=good, big-boned=sacred
> > cow (and therefore, "bad").
>
> That must be why Simon is so fond of Klemperer's Haydn 102 and
> Bernstein's set of the Paris Symphonies...
>

And I happen to enjoy Harnoncourt's Beethoven.

Anyone can find the exception that proves the rule.

Besides, Klemps offers transparency in his recordings and Bernstein's
Haydn is pretty tight and often scrappy, aspects that most HIPsters
identify as being good.

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<1d194c68-e7ac-4a3f...@u7g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,

Mark's remarks would seem to be those of somebody whose listening is
overwhelmingly orchestra-centric.

SR was a guy who admired legions of pianists who didn't play
fortepianos, and his taste there was mostly consistent and discernible.
Kocsis, Bunin, Annie Fischer, lots of individual performances from a
range that included Richter, Gilels, Friedman, Rosenthal, Moravec, Lars
Vogt, Sofronitsky, Mustonen, Kovacevich, Argerich, Schliessmann, Gould,
Feinberg, etc.

And quartets -- what, did he like small quartets?

He listened religiously to the HIP chamber issues, but he consistently
praised work from the Petersen, Hagen, and earlier Juilliard quartets,
and was enthusiastic about numerous items from the ABQ, the Auryn, and
even the Vegh, to cite just a few.

If he went along with "received wisdom," where did he receive his wisdom
from? When he went up against a reviewer, he pretty much invariably knew
countless recordings never cited by the reviewer. When he poked fun at
the "Penguaphone" writers, he'd earned his fun. And we all remember his
thrashing of clichés like "lets the music speak for itself."

Personally, I had lots of disagreements with his taste and sometimes
with his debating style, and I thought his consistent use of terms like
"central" and "middle of the road" to address a whole range of kinds of
expression (if stuff from both the ABQ and the Bartok or Tatrai quartet
is middle of the road, why even other to point it out) -- was
wrongheaded.

So I'm not carrying a torch for the guy. But he was certainly a
contributor of great value, and I think Mark's comments are mostly
mistaken.

SE.

[Mark S]

On Sep 9, 1:07 pm, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:

> I also think Mark gets it wrong here. Just because someone likes
> "small" voices doesn't mean he likes "small" performances by
> orchestras, or lack of bass. I think most HIPsters cherish clarity
> above all, which pushes them toward smallish textures and away from
> over-reverberent bass. But they love themselves a big drumthwack
> whenever possible. So no, they're not necessarily into "small" and
> "quiet".

But there's nothing "big" about an overdone thwack on a drum. It's
just another tree jumping out from the HIP-infested forest. I find the
clarity over all mantra to be both small-scaled and shallow - someone
is easily pleased! There's no magic nor skill involved in achieving
clarity in the smallish textures that are part and parcel to most HIP
recordings with their reduced ensemble sizes and thinner textures.

When I talk about big I'm talking about having a sense of majesty and
mystery in the playing, of having a sense of the long line, of
climaxes being prepared and having a sense of inevitability about
them.

Anyway, we're just speculating as to what SR's feelings are in the
matter.

[Mark S]

On Sep 9, 3:40 pm, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:

> Mark's remarks would seem to be those of somebody whose listening is
> overwhelmingly orchestra-centric.

That's a strange remark.

>
> And quartets -- what, did he like small quartets?

Even among non-HIP-oriented string quartets there are those with a big
sound and a small-scaled sound. It has nothing at all to do with the
number of players.

>
> He listened religiously to the HIP chamber issues, but he consistently
> praised work from the Petersen, Hagen, and earlier Juilliard quartets,
> and was enthusiastic about numerous items from the ABQ, the Auryn, and
> even the Vegh, to cite just a few.

I never gotten the fascination with the Hagen Quartet which can't seem
to play in tune to my ears.

>
> Personally, I had lots of disagreements with his taste and sometimes
> with his debating style, and I thought his consistent use of terms like
> "central" and "middle of the road" to address a whole range of kinds of
> expression (if stuff from both the ABQ and the Bartok or Tatrai quartet
> is middle of the road, why even other to point it out) -- was
> wrongheaded.

Agreed.

>
> So I'm not carrying a torch for the guy. But he was certainly a
> contributor of great value, and I think Mark's comments are mostly
> mistaken.

At the end of the day, he's predictable in his tastes and his ensuing
commentaries, as are many of us here.

[jrsnfld]

I can't think of any conductor who actually disliked transparency, can
you? (Knowing full well that your exception will "prove" the rule!)

--Jeff

[jrsnfld]

Not really...I mean, this discussion is usually interesting regardless
of whether it represents Simon's thoughts on the matter. No
speculation necessary.

I can't believe you don't consider a drumthwack "big" in terms of
sound, so I take it we agree that HIPsters like big sounds when they
get them. So moving on to this other sense of "big," I further don't
see why "big" interpretive gestures elude HIPsters particularly.

HIP performances indeed often strike people as mannered and calculated
for "small" events (in the temporal sense) rather than the "big"
picture, in other words, little calculated niceties of phrasing that
don't add up to much in the long run. But to be honest, I think the
percentage of HIP performances that have a sense of the long line and
that mystical feeling of inevitability is very small but not smaller
than the percentage of non-HIP performances that have those qualities.
Same goes for "majesty".

In other words, you're now defining "big" as a kind of interpretive
genius that is uncommon no matter what the stylistic guise. Very few
un-HIP recordings have it. It is unfair to single out HIPsters as
lacking exceptional interpretive insight, just as it would have been
unfair to say they have no interest in big sounds.

--Jeff

[pianomaven]

On Sep 8, 11:21 am, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article
> <143056db-be3f-4fd8-979a-78f638e6a...@o15g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Can you remember how things were 10 years ago at this newsgroup?
> > There were quite a few posters with a deep knowledge of recordings,
> > and of music.  One could really learn from Simon Roberts, Eric
> > Schissel and many others- and it was a pleasure to read their posts
> > and exchange thoughts with them, because they shared their knowledge
> > generously and with the kindness one would expect from this type of
> > forum.  Occasionally noted performers would pop in and share their
> > opinions, people like Carlo Grante and Sergei Shepkin.
>
> > Why have things fallen so far in such a short amount of time?  It
> > seems that so many of the really outstanding and civil contributors
> > have ended their participation.  Or perhaps they lurk as readers, only
> > to be put off from further participation by reading some of the most
> > mean-spirited and unwarranted responses, as well as highly personal
> > attacks, which now occur on a regular basis.
>
> > What good is a wealth of knowledge, whether actual or self-proclaimed,
> > if it is shared in an off-putting, and often cruel fashion?  There
> > must be some way to bring the level of civility back up from the
> > appallingly low levels it has reached here.
>
> > This rudeness and meanness is very contagious as well.  One
> > participant is treated rudely, and therefore becomes defensive and
> > angry.  It is making the experience of posting here no longer worth
> > the effort.
>
> There is only one way to improve the newsgroup:  Post better articles.
>
> By better I mean to not take part in the personal attacks, and to not
> give that person a sounding board by which to continue them.  The kid
> in the schoolyard who got picked on the most by the bullies was the kid
> that responded the most.  By "calling out" posters who annoy you, you
> invite the bully to continue the meanness and rudeness.  They will only
> go away when no one responds to them anymore.  You want someone to go
> away from this group, then never respond to them again.  Whether this
> means you have to use a killfile or just better judgement is up to you,
> but the former removes a lot of the temptation.  
>
> Imagine if you posted and no one ever responded.  How much would you
> continue to post?  Now imagine you get joy from verbally abusing other
> posters.  What would give you the most pleasure?  
>
> The solution is clear.  We all have the means of making this a better
> place in our hands.  Whether we choose to use them or not is up to us.
> One thing for sure is that the remedy for a personal attack isn't
> another one.

I have stopped respnding to the posts -mostly perspnal attacks aimed
at goadng me into replying - from one source whose name hardly need
mention.

This has not led to a cessation. They continue, thus putting the lie
to your rather naiive belief.

TD

[pianomaven]

On Sep 8, 4:19 pm, Kevin N <bossk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 8, 2:06 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On 8 sep, 19:26, Christopher Webber <zarzu...@zarzuela.invalid.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > As we know, sterile moderated groups are not the answer either. The
> > > sadness is, that the likes of Klaus Heymann and Robert von Bahr won't be
> > > back here. Ever. So we won't find out what they're up to through the ng,
> > > let alone be able to lobby for what we think they might like to get up
> > > to in the future.
>
> > And I can tell you for sure it's not because of Michael but because of
> > Antsy, and other weirdos.
>
> The other weirdos principally being Gerard and Deacon. If those Three
> Stooges of RMCR were to pack up and leave forever, the overall quality
> and S/N ratio of this Newsgroup would improve by an order of
> magnitude; life would seep back.
>
> > Strong opinions? Too bad. But that's not the same as sheer lunacy.
>
> Bingo! If the weirdos left, it wouldn't be the end of lengthy OT
> threads, flame wars, etc. I've learned more from Michael's posts about
> performance practices, orchestration, conducting than any other
> contributor here. So what if he can be downright nasty - it's actually
> rather amusing IMHO to see him kick around the above-named Stooges.

You just placed yourself among those whose departure would enhance
this group.

Get thee to a nunnery!

TD

[pianomaven]

On Sep 9, 12:07 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sep 9, 8:02 am, "wagnerfan" <ivanmax...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Simon was wonderful but he was very discerning and had no patience for
> > Deacon's shenanigans - he quickly gave up after he found out he was talking
> > to a brick wall   Wagner fan
>
> I never found Simon all that discerning when it came to the nuances
> and the nuts and bolts of musical performance. I doubt that I agreed
> with his musical tastes - which, to me, never roamed very far from
> received opinion - more than 5% of the time. But he was always cordial
> in his posts and, AFAIKR, was never a name caller.

Correct.

TD