Weingartner live Eroica?
gns
current CRC, that there is a live Eroica from Salzburg c. 1936 with
him--not the commercial recording but a complete surviving actual
performance. I haven't been able to find it snooping around on the
net. Anybody know this? How does it compare with the commercial EMI
set?
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:ae3227ce-ecef-412b-a76e-
1afa8b...@x20g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
I've never seen nor heard it either, nor have I ever seen nor heard any of
the Wagner performances Weingartner conducted at Covent Garden, which Dyment
listed (some years ago, and along with the "Eroica") as possibly extant.
Naturally, I'd love to hear any of these if they should turn up.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Kerrison
> gns <mcmuscl...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to be
> typed in news:ae3227ce-ecef-412b-a76e-
> 1afa8b304...@x20g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
>
> > I read in Christopher Dyment's review of a Weingartner bio, in the current
> > CRC, that there is a live Eroica from Salzburg c. 1936 with him--not the
> > commercial recording but a complete surviving actual performance. I haven't
> > been able to find it snooping around on the net. Anybody know this? How
> > does it compare with the commercial EMI set?
>
> I've never seen nor heard it either, nor have I ever seen nor heard any of
> the Wagner performances Weingartner conducted at Covent Garden, which Dyment
> listed (some years ago, and along with the "Eroica") as possibly extant.
>
> Naturally, I'd love to hear any of these if they should turn up.
>
> --
> Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
> Read about "Proty" here:http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
> To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
> Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Apropos that EMI Weingartner set ... I seem to recall someone saying
when it came out: "I can't see what all the fuss is about." That
probably explains its short existence in the catalog.
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
> On Aug 28, 9:04爌m, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>> gns <mcmuscl...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
>> to be typed in news:ae3227ce-ecef-412b-a76e-
>> 1afa8b304...@x20g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > I read in Christopher Dyment's review of a Weingartner bio, in the
>> > current CRC, that there is a live Eroica from Salzburg c. 1936 with
>> > him--not the commercial recording but a complete surviving actual
>> > performance. I haven't been able to find it snooping around on the
>> > net. Anybody know this? How does it compare with the commercial EMI
>> > set?
>>
>> I've never seen nor heard it either, nor have I ever seen nor heard any
>> of the Wagner performances Weingartner conducted at Covent Garden,
>> which Dyment listed (some years ago, and along with the "Eroica") as
>> possibly extant.
>>
>> Naturally, I'd love to hear any of these if they should turn up.
>
> Apropos that EMI Weingartner set ... I seem to recall someone saying
> when it came out: "I can't see what all the fuss is about." That
> probably explains its short existence in the catalog.
I had already heard a few Weingartner recordings (including the VPO 9th, on
78s which I still have) when the old HMV box came out, and it was that 3-LP
set which "hooked" me completely on this conductor.
Edward Cowan
1970, orig. Salzburg: Residenz Verlag, 1969) does not show a Weingartner
"Eroica" in the 1936 season, but there was one in 1935 (Kaut, dtv,
p.89):
Orchesterkonzerte
der Wiener Philharmoniker
28. Juli, 11 Uhr Mozarteum
Dirigent: Felix von Weingartner
L. v. BEETHOVEN
Symphonie Nr. 1, C-Dur, op. 21
Ouvertüre »Leonore« 2 C-Dur, op. 72a
Symphonie Nr. 3.Es-Dur, op. 55 »Eroica«
There was one more Weingartner VPO concert on August 4 that included
Berlioz's "Symphonie fantastique," Debussy's "Prelude to the Afternoon
of a Faun," Berlioz's "Absence" and H. Fouques-Duparc's "Phidyle," sung
by soprano Vera de Villiers, and Dukas' "Sorcerer's Apprentice."
There were also VPO concerts conducted by Kleiber, Boult, Walter, and
Toscanini. --E.A.C.
gns <mcmus...@gmail.com> wrote:
--
hrabanus
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:1jo1828.738kyi96il40N%oldger...@nospam.com:
> Josef Kaut's _Festspiele in Salzburg: Eine Dokumentation_ (Munich: dtv,
> 1970, orig. Salzburg: Residenz Verlag, 1969) does not show a Weingartner
> "Eroica" in the 1936 season, but there was one in 1935 (Kaut, dtv, p.89):
>
> Orchesterkonzerte
> der Wiener Philharmoniker
>
> 28. Juli, 11 Uhr Mozarteum
> Dirigent: Felix von Weingartner
>
> L. v. BEETHOVEN
> Symphonie Nr. 1, C-Dur, op. 21
> Ouvertüre »Leonore« 2 C-Dur, op. 72a
> Symphonie Nr. 3.Es-Dur, op. 55 »Eroica«
>
> There was one more Weingartner VPO concert on August 4 that included
> Berlioz's "Symphonie fantastique," Debussy's "Prelude to the Afternoon
> of a Faun," Berlioz's "Absence" and H. Fouques-Duparc's "Phidyle," sung
> by soprano Vera de Villiers, and Dukas' "Sorcerer's Apprentice."
>
> There were also VPO concerts conducted by Kleiber, Boult, Walter, and
> Toscanini. --E.A.C.
It tends to get forgotten nowadays because of the relative lack of
recordings, but Weingartner was a major proponent of Berlioz' music.
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> Apropos that EMI Weingartner set ... I seem to recall someone saying
> when it came out: "I can't see what all the fuss is about." That
> probably explains its short existence in the catalog.
That could be. I heard about it in the '70s from Michael Gray, who
knows Christopher Dyment well. Dyment was the major factor, instigator
if you will, behind the EMI Weingertner set. Mike told me that Dyment
told him the sales of the EMI Weingartner LP box were abysmally low.
Much lower than other EMI historical LP sets of the time. So low,
according to Dyment, that it led people at EMI to conclude that no
orchestral recordings by a conductor whose career on records or in
life ended by the beginning of World War II were commercially worth
reissuing. (Weingartner died in 1942 but made his last recordings in
London in 1940.) That ruled out LP reissues of recordings by Sir
Hamilton Harty and Albert Coates (his HMVs), for starters. They
concluded that conductors from "so long ago" had no interest to anyone
in the '70s.
It became an EMI rule, apparently, although they did relax it a bit
for a two-LP set of recordings conducted by Leslie Heward (died 1943).
Don Tait
Paul
Thanks for this insight, Don. The setting of an arbitary dividing-line
helps explain the neglect by EMI of their pre-war legacy. Not unlike
Classic FM avoiding recordings by dead artists (though they similarly
make an exception for the recently-deceased Pavarotti).
Paul
Edward Cowan
Symphonie fantastique, but there wasn't one... --E.A.C.
Matthew B. Tepper <oy˛@earthlink.net> wrote:
> It tends to get forgotten nowadays because of the relative lack of
> recordings, but Weingartner was a major proponent of Berlioz' music.
--
hrabanus
Matthew B. Tepper
> I searched Archiv for a CD version of Weingartner's recording of the
> Symphonie fantastique, but there wasn't one... --E.A.C.
>
> Matthew B. Tepper <oyË›@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> It tends to get forgotten nowadays because of the relative lack of
>> recordings, but Weingartner was a major proponent of Berlioz' music.
There was an LP edition on Past Masters, and CD editions on Danté Lys and
Shinseido EMI (the one I currently have), along with some others that I can't
recall at the moment; they're all currently out of print.
Kerrison
> oldgerman...@nospam.com (Edward Cowan) appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed innews:1jo3221.yrohfr416te6N%oldger...@nospam.com:
>
> > I searched Archiv for a CD version of Weingartner's recording of the
> > Symphonie fantastique, but there wasn't one... --E.A.C.
>
> > Matthew B. Tepper <oyË›@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >> It tends to get forgotten nowadays because of the relative lack of
> >> recordings, but Weingartner was a major proponent of Berlioz' music.
>
> There was an LP edition on Past Masters, and CD editions on Danté Lys and
> Shinseido EMI (the one I currently have), along with some others that I can't
> recall at the moment; they're all currently out of print.
>
> --
> Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
> Read about "Proty" here:http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
> To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
> Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
The CRC review that gns refers to is of a German-language compendium
of essays about Weingartner, interpersed with some of his own
writings, and containing what Dyment describes as "a patently
inadequate discography." Significantly, Dyment states that his own
1976 study (a limited edition, long out of print) is the only post-war
English language book about Weingartner. He ends up by asking "who'll
take up the major challenge" of a new comprehensive biography. Well,
if no-one else apart from Dyment was sufficiently interested to come
up with a book about this conductor in the 20th century, it seems
hardly likely that they'll do so in the 21st. After all, Weingartner's
name means virtually nothing in the year 2010 to anyone under the age
of 70! And if it had meant that much 35 years ago then the EMI LP set
wouldn't have been a commercial disaster and several English-language
books on Weingartner would have been published long since, instead of
just the one by Christopher Dyment.
uncle dave
The name means a lot to me. I enjoy the recordings I know, and as the
wrecker of the good Mahler did at the Vienna opera, (at least as one
reads from those in the Mahler camp, re-cutting what Mahler put back,
etc.) as a writer on conducting whose work Toscanini knew, as a
pioneer in recording, and these days as a composer, he is more than
worthy of some study. Who cares about some "commercial disaster" for
EMI anyway?
Uncle Dave
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
> On Aug 31, 4:42Â pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> oldgerman...@nospam.com (Edward Cowan) appears to have caused the
>> following letters to be typed
>> innews:1jo3221.yrohfr416te6N%oldger...@nospam.com:
>>
>> > I searched Archiv for a CD version of Weingartner's recording of the
>> > Symphonie fantastique, but there wasn't one... --E.A.C.
>>
>> > Matthew B. Tepper <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> It tends to get forgotten nowadays because of the relative lack of
>> >> recordings, but Weingartner was a major proponent of Berlioz' music.
>>
>> There was an LP edition on Past Masters, and CD editions on Danté Lys
>> and Shinseido EMI (the one I currently have), along with some others
>> that I can't recall at the moment; they're all currently out of print.
>
> The CRC review that gns refers to is of a German-language compendium of
> essays about Weingartner, interpersed with some of his own writings, and
> containing what Dyment describes as "a patently inadequate discography."
> Significantly, Dyment states that his own 1976 study (a limited edition,
> long out of print)
*cough* Got it.
> is the only post-war English language book about Weingartner. He ends up
> by asking "who'll take up the major challenge" of a new comprehensive
> biography. Well, if no-one else apart from Dyment was sufficiently
> interested to come up with a book about this conductor in the 20th
> century, it seems hardly likely that they'll do so in the 21st. After
> all, Weingartner's name means virtually nothing in the year 2010 to
> anyone under the age of 70! And if it had meant that much 35 years ago
> then the EMI LP set wouldn't have been a commercial disaster and several
> English-language books on Weingartner would have been published long
> since, instead of just the one by Christopher Dyment.
Even absent such a work, Weingartner's own memoirs, Buffets and Rewards, is
still well worth reading. There are lots of odd facts about him that you
won't see elsewhere, such as (for example) his interest in watching solar
eclipses, even to the point of accepting conducting engagements based in
part on whether they were anywhere near a good viewing place for one.
gns
I was told that Pearl's Harty Conducts Berlioz CD also had very poor
sales. Too bad as there's some great conducting on that disc.
gns
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm well under 70 and virtually all of his commercial recordings.
Historically, he's very important and his Beethoven and Brahms
recordings are seminal. His classical style makes some uncomfortable
since it refutes those who think that some other German conductors
constitute the real "echt Deutsch" style but "it ain't necessarily
so." But B.H. Haggin reviewed that EMI set and essentially said the
Eroica they had all thought so good in the 30s was actually rather
tepid, Toscanini without the excitement so to speak. That's why I
wanted to ear what he did live outside the confines of a studio. But I
still think his 9th is one of the all time greats.
Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:87eb16c6-7ee4-4d6f-9783-e291467e8390
@l32g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
> I'm well under 70 and virtually all of his commercial recordings.
I'm also well under 70, and I all his commercial recordings too.
> Historically, he's very important and his Beethoven and Brahms recordings
> are seminal. His classical style makes some uncomfortable since it
> refutes those who think that some other German conductors constitute the
> real "echt Deutsch" style but "it ain't necessarily so."
Shall we be blunt? I suspect you are referring to those who believe that
Furtwängler was God, Toscanini was the Devil, and all the other proper
Germans were at best apostles and archangels.
> But B.H. Haggin reviewed that EMI set and essentially said the Eroica
> they had all thought so good in the 30s was actually rather tepid,
> Toscanini without the excitement so to speak. That's why I wanted to ear
> what he did live outside the confines of a studio.
You can often 'ear what Stokowski and Barbirolli did outside the studio.
> But I still think his 9th is one of the all time greats.
Assuming you mean the Vienna remake, I agree wholeheartedly.
uncle dave
Concerning "echt Deutsch" style, people who think as you describe need
only read his writings (some available at the Internet Archive, though
not his autobiography or Buffets and Rewards) to find out where he
fits into that picture. I'm not starting a religious argument in
making the analogy that he writes about von Bulow the way early
Christian writers write about Gnostics. His Beethoven book is very
valuable, and the "symphonists since" book really helped me a lot with
Brahms 2. I have a nice Dover edition that also includes "On
Conducting."
There is a great amount of pleasure to be had from his recordings, and
not just of the "take your medicine" variety. He resembles modern
musicians more than many we hear about as precursors of our so-called
style. I believe that he would sweep the field if he were in his
prime transported to our time, but I believe the generic sound of all
orchestras today would be a disappointing shock to him.
Imagine, a conductor whose opera was put on by Liszt. Does anyone out
there know any of his compositions? I heard an orchestra piece once
on the radio, that's it, sad to say.
Peace,
Uncle Dave
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:5bf5e85b-526e-467c-868a-1eaad65145a6
@e14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
> Concerning "echt Deutsch" style, people who think as you describe need
> only read his writings (some available at the Internet Archive, though
> not his autobiography or Buffets and Rewards) to find out where he fits
> into that picture. I'm not starting a religious argument in making the
> analogy that he writes about von Bulow the way early Christian writers
> write about Gnostics. His Beethoven book is very valuable, and the
> "symphonists since" book really helped me a lot with Brahms 2. I have a
> nice Dover edition that also includes "On Conducting."
> There is a great amount of pleasure to be had from his recordings, and
> not just of the "take your medicine" variety. He resembles modern
> musicians more than many we hear about as precursors of our so-called
> style. I believe that he would sweep the field if he were in his prime
> transported to our time, but I believe the generic sound of all
> orchestras today would be a disappointing shock to him.
> Imagine, a conductor whose opera was put on by Liszt. Does anyone out
> there know any of his compositions? I heard an orchestra piece once
> on the radio, that's it, sad to say.
Perhaps you've not yet made the acquaintance of the series on CPO (all
right, "cpo") of Weingartner's music, including at least some of his
symphonies? Definitely worth a hearing, particularly #2.
Another odd fact about Weingartner: He was a follower of Bo Yin Ra.
gns
> gns <mcmuscl...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
Bluntly speaking, affirmative. That's what I'm referring to. Ditto Kna
and some of their acolytes (aco-lite?) wonderful as they can be in
Wagner and Bruckner, that doesn't mean Beethoven or Brahms are
supposed to "go" that way.
And yup, the Vienna remake. The 1926 9th sounds like it was recorded
in a broom closet.
Live can make a lot of difference, I'll never forget hearing a Munch
live Boston aircheck of Le Chausseur Maudit after years of
familiartiy with the RCA recording. My God, it was totally different a
hell for leather romp that the session recording doesn't even begin to
suggest. And they were made about the same time, too.
gns
>
> - Show quoted text -
Speaking of Brahms 2, I read a quote from a review when Furtwangler
first conducted it in Leipzig c. 1922 (the quote's in "The Devil's
Music Master") in which a venerable critic said it was never conducted
so slow in Brahms's time. Offering that as a fact or artifact to do
with as you please, not necessarily negative criticism of any Fu
performance. But he was not being "authentic' he was just being Fu.
CPO has put out a lot of his orchestral works, I bought the 2nd
Symphony and found it terribly derivitive and unimaginitive. Tho for
all that, it was more palatable than Furtwanlger's indigestible 2nd.
Roger Kulp
Well wasn't it sort of true that there wasn't much interest in pre
WWII (nonoperatic) recordings until the CD reissue boom started in the
90s? I think people in the 70s would think you were nuts if you told
them a Telefunken Mengelberg set would go for hundreds of dollars,or
Victor scroll sets for $75 and up.
Speaking of Hamilton Harty on Lp,I have a pile of five or six double
sided acetates,about which I know very little.I may have mentioned
them here before.They are all pressed in Hayes, Middlesex,by somebody
named Troutbeck.There is one 12" one,of two later Mozart
symphonies,one by Bruno Walter,and The VPO,and one by Beecham,and the
LPO.All the rest are 10".There is the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No.
2,by Moisevich,and the rest are all Boyd Neel,and Hamilton Harty.I
know nothing about these,but I suspect they were done by some EMI
engineer in the off hours,sometime in the 60s or 70s.I think if you do
a Google on them,you will probably only get postings I made to various
newsgroups.If there was any paperwork with them,it was gone by the
time I got them.
Roger
Roger Kulp
I am curious as to how many early acoustic sides he did for
Columbia,and who the orchestras were.I only have one.I recently
learned that Beecham made a more records in the 1910s,than I ever
thought.
Roger
Edward Cowan
massive (eight discs) LP set, "Sir Thomas Beecham Bart. C. H. 1879-1961"
(EMI World Records SH 1001-1008), issued in 1979 to celebrate the
centenary of Sir Thomas' birth. The first disc (SH 1001) contained the
following early recordings:
J. Strauss 2nd: "Die Fledermaus" Overture (1910) HMV.0627
J. D'Albert: "Tiefland" selection (1910) HMV.0629/30
Offenbach: "The Tales of Hoffmann": The Doll's Song (w. Caroline
Hatchard, sop.) (Beecham Opera Company) HMV.03193
Edmond de Missa: "Muguette": Entr'acte (c. 1912) Odeon 0795
Stravinsky: "Firebird" ballet excerpts : Dance of the Firebird, Scherzo,
Infernal Dance (1916) Columbia L.1040
German: "Have you news of my boy Jack? (w. Dame Clara Butt, contralto)
(Feb./March 1917) Columbia 7145
Beecham Symphony Orchestra (except Offenbach item)
The same LP contains also Kurt Atterberg: Sym no.6 in C-maj., Op.31 with
the *earlier* Royal Philharmonic Orchestra (August 1928) Columbia
L.2160/3
The set also contained the book, _Sir Thomas Beecham - A Centenary
Tribute_ by Alan Jefferson. --E.A.C.
Roger Kulp <thoren...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I am curious as to how many early acoustic sides he did for
> Columbia,and who the orchestras were.I only have one.I recently
> learned that Beecham made a more records in the 1910s,than I ever
> thought.
--
hrabanus
Dontait...@aol.com
[much editing]
> Concerning "echt Deutsch" style, people who think as you describe need
> only read his writings (some available at the Internet Archive, though
> not his autobiography or Buffets and Rewards) to find out where he
> fits into that picture. I'm not starting a religious argument in
> making the analogy that he writes about von Bulow the way early
> Christian writers write about Gnostics.
A very interesting, and possibly new, insight into Weingartner's
feelings about Hans von Bulow is provided in Alan Walker's recent
biography of Bulow (Oxford U. Press, 2010). Walker goes into it detail
on pp. 364/6. To try to summarize briefly, when Bulow was at Hamburg
in 1886 and the young Weingartner was there with him, Bulow conducted
some performances of Carmen but then had to go out of town briefly,
and Weingartner conducted two. Accounts say that he did some parts of
it faster. Walker writes "When Bulow returned to Hamburg, he indicated
that it had taken only two performances to reduce a noble opera to the
level of a cheap operetta, and he chastised Weingartner for
incompetence. Weingartner may have enjoyed the title of 'first
conductor,' but he was insecure in his new position, and Bulow's words
lacerated him. They set Weingartner (sensitive and ever litigious)
against Bulow for life."
And it's true that Weingartner later wrote about Bulow, then dead,
as if he were a musical arch-distorter. So evidently there was a
grudge.
By the way, Walker's biography of Bulow is very interesting and
worth knowing.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
> On Sep 1, 9:04 am, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > gns <mcmuscl...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
> > be typed in news:87eb16c6-7ee4-4d6f-9783-e291467e8390
> > @l32g2000prn.googlegroups.com:
>
> > > I'm well under 70 and virtually all of his commercial recordings.
>
> > I'm also well under 70, and I all his commercial recordings too.
>
> > > Historically, he's very important and his Beethoven and Brahms recordings
> > > are seminal. His classical style makes some uncomfortable since it
> > > refutes those who think that some other German conductors constitute the
> > > real "echt Deutsch" style but "it ain't necessarily so."
>
> > Shall we be blunt? I suspect you are referring to those who believe that
> > Furtwängler was God, Toscanini was the Devil, and all the other proper
> > Germans were at best apostles and archangels.
> > > But I still think his 9th is one of the all time greats.
>
> > Assuming you mean the Vienna remake, I agree wholeheartedly.
> Bluntly speaking, affirmative. That's what I'm referring to. Ditto Kna
> and some of their acolytes (aco-lite?) wonderful as they can be in
> Wagner and Bruckner, that doesn't mean Beethoven or Brahms are
> supposed to "go" that way.
Total agreement. People often have the idea that there are "national
schools" of musical interpretation, but as we know, that's just not
true. To begin with, the stronger an interpreter's personality and his
or her projection in performance, the more individual the result will
be. Regardless of nation of origin. For one instance, few conductors
could be more different as interpreters as Nikolai Golovanov, Serge
Koussevitzky, and Evgeny Mravinsky, but everything they did was
stamped with their individual personalities. And they were all
Russian.
The same with German conductors. The idea that all interpreted music
like Nikisch or Furtwangler seems to be widely believed, as is the
idea that Furtwangler's way was "the only" way German conductors
interpreted, and it is wrong, as a study of recordings will quickly
show. Max Fiedler and Weingartner were virtual contemporaries, but
they are utterly different. The same for Furtwangler and Hermann
Abendroth, or Scherchen. And so on. And with Italians: Toscanini and
de Sabata were different, and Antonio Guarnieri, to judge from his
astonishing recordings, was extraordinarily so, almost like another
Furtwangler.
> And yup, the Vienna remake. The 1926 9th sounds like it was recorded
> in a broom closet.
> Live can make a lot of difference, I'll never forget hearing a Munch
> live Boston aircheck of Le Chausseur Maudit after years of
> familiartiy with the RCA recording. My God, it was totally different a
> hell for leather romp that the session recording doesn't even begin to
> suggest. And they were made about the same time, too.
Ditto about the Vienna PO Weingartner Beethoven 9th. Overwhelming.
And Munch's live Le Chasseur Maudit! Total agreement. Isn't it
stunning? But that was how Munch was live. His recordings don't have
the almost wild intensity of his live performances.
Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:4c8bfef3-006a-4475-9696-
dc43f6...@e14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:
> A very interesting, and possibly new, insight into Weingartner's
> feelings about Hans von Bulow is provided in Alan Walker's recent
> biography of Bulow (Oxford U. Press, 2010). Walker goes into it detail on
> pp. 364/6. To try to summarize briefly, when Bulow was at Hamburg in 1886
> and the young Weingartner was there with him, Bulow conducted some
> performances of Carmen but then had to go out of town briefly, and
> Weingartner conducted two. Accounts say that he did some parts of it
> faster. Walker writes "When Bulow returned to Hamburg, he indicated that
> it had taken only two performances to reduce a noble opera to the level
> of a cheap operetta, and he chastised Weingartner for incompetence.
> Weingartner may have enjoyed the title of 'first conductor,' but he was
> insecure in his new position, and Bulow's words lacerated him. They set
> Weingartner (sensitive and ever litigious) against Bulow for life."
>
> And it's true that Weingartner later wrote about Bulow, then dead, as
> if he were a musical arch-distorter. So evidently there was a grudge.
>
> By the way, Walker's biography of Bulow is very interesting and
> worth knowing.
Thanks for the recommendation; that sounds fascinating!
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> Speaking of Hamilton Harty on Lp,I have a pile of five or six double
> sided acetates,about which I know very little.I may have mentioned
> them here before.They are all pressed in Hayes, Middlesex,by somebody
> named Troutbeck.There is one 12" one,of two later Mozart
> symphonies,one by Bruno Walter,and The VPO,and one by Beecham,and the
> LPO.All the rest are 10".There is the Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No.
> 2,by Moisevich,and the rest are all Boyd Neel,and Hamilton Harty.I
> know nothing about these,but I suspect they were done by some EMI
> engineer in the off hours,sometime in the 60s or 70s.I think if you do
> a Google on them,you will probably only get postings I made to various
> newsgroups.If there was any paperwork with them,it was gone by the
> time I got them.
"Acetates" are really lacquer discs, and they were all
instantaneous, meaning cut individually and not pressed.
If they are EMI lacquers, it sounds as if they might be of transfers
of commercial recordings of Mozart symphonies with Walter/VPO and
Beecham/LPO. Et cetera. Made up for internal auditioning.
But you should really list the full contents of the discs. OK?
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip-]
> I am curious as to how many early acoustic sides he did for
> Columbia,and who the orchestras were.I only have one.I recently
> learned that Beecham made a more records in the 1910s,than I ever
> thought.
>
> Roger
Weingartner made numerous acoustical recordings. I'd have to
research the exact dates, but: he seems to have begun with a couple of
sides for HMV in Vienna around 1911, conducting for his wife of the
time, Lucille Marcel. He then made a series for American Columbia in
1913 when he was conducting at the Boston Opera. Bizet, Tchaikovsky,
more with Marcel et cetera. Then after about 1922 Weingartner made
many acoustical recordings in England including Mozart Symphony 39,
Beethoven 5, 7, and 8, a short piece by Weingartner himself, and
Brahms Symphony no. 1.
And yes, Beecham made numerous acoustical recordings too.
Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:435f8657-31cc-4ba2-8892-a4706cad1c27
@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com:
> On Sep 2, 11:21 am, Roger Kulp <thorenstd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> [snip-]
>
>> I am curious as to how many early acoustic sides he did for Columbia,
>> and who the orchestras were. I only have one. I recently learned that
>> Beecham made a more records in the 1910s, than I ever thought.
>>
>> Roger
>
> Weingartner made numerous acoustical recordings. I'd have to research
> the exact dates, but: he seems to have begun with a couple of sides for
> HMV in Vienna around 1911, conducting for his wife of the time, Lucille
> Marcel. He then made a series for American Columbia in 1913 when he was
> conducting at the Boston Opera. Bizet, Tchaikovsky, more with Marcel et
> cetera. Then after about 1922 Weingartner made many acoustical recordings
> in England including Mozart Symphony 39, Beethoven 5, 7, and 8, a short
> piece by Weingartner himself, and Brahms Symphony no. 1.
Christopher Dyment's booklet notes for the ill-selling HMV 3-LP box (of
which I now learn I was one of the few purchasers) included a discography.
So did Dyment's book, Felix Weingartner: Recollections and Recordings.
Bibliographical Series No. 5. (Rickmansworth, Herts.: Triad Press, 1976.)
> And yes, Beecham made numerous acoustical recordings too.
--
Roger Kulp
I was thinking of the 1913 recordings.If it is the Boston Opera
Orchestra,there are no such credits on the label.
The 1922-24 ones are quite scarce,I have only come across one set,I
think it's the Mozart.
Roger
Roger Kulp
These lacquers are definitely mysterious issues,especially since the
covers that they came with are gone from my copies.It seems I only
have four,a couple less than I thought,all taken from 78s,or possibly
metal parts.They are
Mozart Symphony #39 Beecham London Philharmonic from Columbia LX
8508-11/Symphony #41 Walter VPO from HMV DB 8435-8
This is the only 12" one,the rest are 10"
Tchaikovsky Concerto #2 Benno Moiseiwich Weldon Liverpool Philharmonic
George Wedon from HMV C7609-10
Eine Kleine Nachtmusik Beecham LPO from HMV DB 6204-5/Tchaikovsky
Theme and Variations,Opus 55 Erich Leinsdorf London Philharmonic from
Decca AK 1987-8
Berlioz Romeo's Reverie and Fete of The Capolets London Philharmonic
Hamilton Harty from Columbia DB 1230-1/Handel Water Music Orch.Harty
from Decca AK 1582-3
The EMI/Decca couplings are interesting,suggesting an unauthorized
issue
The labels red as follows
Long 33 1/3 r.p.m Playing
Microgroove
High Direct
Fidelity Recording
by W.H. Troutbeck
A.I.E.E.,AM.I.R.E.
The White House Cole Park Road
Twickenham,Middlesex Popesgrove 5836
READ NOTES ON COVER
Not To Be Publicly Performed Without Licence
I defer to your expertise,Don.What kind of issues are these,and when
were they made?
Roger
Dontait...@aol.com
> On Sep 2, 4:37 pm, Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
[snip]
Thanks for your compliment. They are clearly lacquers of transfers
of recordings commercially issued on 78s. You included their catalogue
numbers. Private transfers, perhaps. I have never heard of Mister
Troutbeck at the White House in Twickenham, Middlesex, and it doesn't
say that he was affiliated with a large company such as EMI or Decca.
You might well be correct that it was unauthorized, i.e. private. But
then a lacquer disc is not something that is pressed from a master;
it's an instantaneous recording, individually cut.
It sounds like something done privately, as I wrote. Perhaps it was
intended as a sampler for pirate LPs. Anyway, the Beecham, Walter, and
Harty recordings have all had official reissues, and the 78s of all of
the titles are not scarce. And: the Handel-Harty Water Music suite is
misattributed. Decca K 1582/3 was a 1940s recording performed by the
LPO conducted by Basil Cameron. Harty's LPO recording was made by
Columbia around 1933.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
[snip]
> I was thinking of the 1913 recordings.If it is the Boston Opera
> Orchestra,there are no such credits on the label.
>
> The 1922-24 ones are quite scarce,I have only come across one set,I
> think it's the Mozart.
>
> Roger
I doubt that Weingartner's 1913 American Columbia discs were made
with the orchestra of the Boston Opera company. They were made while
he was in this country conducting there, but the records were probably
made in New York City. I'll try to look the information up in the four-
volume set of Columbia matrix numbers and post what I find here.
Yes, the 1920s acoustical sets are scarce on American Columbia, at
least. Some more than others: in my experience, the Beethoven 5th and
Brahms 1st are the scarcest.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
> On Sep 6, 11:22 am, Roger Kulp <thorenstd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > I was thinking of the 1913 recordings.If it is the Boston Opera
> > Orchestra,there are no such credits on the label.
>
> > The 1922-24 ones are quite scarce,I have only come across one set,I
> > think it's the Mozart.
>
> > Roger
>
> I doubt that Weingartner's 1913 American Columbia discs were made
> with the orchestra of the Boston Opera company. They were made while
> he was in this country conducting there, but the records were probably
> made in New York City. I'll try to look the information up in the four-
> volume set of Columbia matrix numbers and post what I find here.
[snip]
I have been looking through Volume III of the Columbia Master Book
Discography and have found some information about some of
Weingartner's acoustical American Columbia recordings, but the
information is fragmented and wretchedly indexed. It's going to take
me some hours to track all of the information down. I did learn that
some of his sides (all with the "Columbia Symphony Orchestra," not
something from the Boston Opera) were made in early 1914. My error.
Don Tait
Kerrison
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well, I couldn't resist tapping "W. H. Troutbeck" in Google and his
name popped up straight away. This particular quote comes from the
Havergal Brian Society website and is written by the noted British
musicologist, Lewis Foreman, where he describes trying to find
recordings of Brian's music in the 1960s:
"I became aware that there were collectors of off-the-air material,
and I met a remarkable audio engineer, W H Troutbeck, whose business
included the cutting of acetate discs. I soon became aware that he
numbered among his clients Edmund Rubbra, Sir Adrian Boult and Harriet
Cohen, the pianist. He was willing to act as intermediary with these
and other artists to seek permission for their recordings to be cut
for other customers. And so I managed to acquire some Brian; and
also by swapping tapes with other enthusiasts it was possible to
illuminate many of those recesses of musical history which had
previously proved impregnable. Thus some Brian came to be added to my
repertoire, and to my "singing in the bath" musical stock, and whetted
enthusiasm for further investigation." ....
http://www.havergalbrian.org/brianforeman.htm
It's worth noting that Lewis Foreman wrote the notes for the recent
Dutton CD of late 1950s BBC broadcasts of several of Brian's works.
Roger Kulp
> On Aug 28, 9:04 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > gns <mcmuscl...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to be
> > typed in news:ae3227ce-ecef-412b-a76e-
> > 1afa8b304...@x20g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
>
> > > I read in Christopher Dyment's review of a Weingartner bio, in the current
> > > CRC, that there is a live Eroica from Salzburg c. 1936 with him--not the
> > > commercial recording but a complete surviving actual performance. I haven't
> > > been able to find it snooping around on the net. Anybody know this? How
> > > does it compare with the commercial EMI set?
>
> > I've never seen nor heard it either, nor have I ever seen nor heard any of
> > the Wagner performances Weingartner conducted at Covent Garden, which Dyment
> > listed (some years ago, and along with the "Eroica") as possibly extant.
>
> > Naturally, I'd love to hear any of these if they should turn up.
>
> > --
> > Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
> > Read about "Proty" here:http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
> > To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
> > Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
>
> when it came out: "I can't see what all the fuss is about." That
> probably explains its short existence in the catalog.
Did that have live recordings?
Roger
Roger Kulp
I have always wondered about just who was playing on some of these
records.I recall reading in one of these groups that some of the
"Victor Concert Orchestra" recordings from the late 'teens,and early
twenties were by either The Boston Symphony,or The Philadelphia
Orchestra without the resident conductor.
Roger
Kerrison
>
> - Show quoted text -
No. It's all from 78s ... See the Gramophone review from their on-line
archive ...
Dontait...@aol.com
This is great. Thanks. It's as I suspected: Troutbeck was a
bootlegger, making lacquer discs for people.
Hats off, Kerrison.
Don Tait
gns
If only we had that fabled edison cylinder recording of a Von Bulow
"Eroica", even a few minutes worth. But is it true he donned black
gloves before conducting the Marcia funebre?" That smacks of cheap
kitschy showmanship even for its era. But it may a legend...
gns
Likewise, Stock made 22 released sides with the Chicago Symphony in
1916-1917. I've managed to hear them all.
After 1919 Columbia (English) seemed to be in the forefront of
orchestral recording though Coates and Ronald and of course Elgar made
many sides fro HMV.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:e369761a-99ff-40db-85fd-ce97c825fc18
@u6g2000yqh.googlegroups.com:
No. The only live Weingartner recordings I can think of are the snippets
from several Wagner operas, and from Nicolai's "Merry Wives of Windsor,"
which were issued in the "Wiener Staatsoper Live" series on Koch. (There
was a longer excerpt from "Parsifal," once available on an Eddie Smith LP.)
Then there's the "Blue Danube" snippet on an old British Pathé film. This
is online somewhere in a low-res version.
By the way, an interesting article on Weingartner, including reviews of
several LP issues (including the HMV box) and of Dyment's book, can be
found here:
http://www.arsc-audio.org/journals/v8/v08n2-3p114-122.pdf
There's something very familiar about the author's name, I think.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
***** War is Peace **** Freedom is Slavery **** Fox is News *****
Gerard
>
> If only we had that fabled edison cylinder recording of a Von Bulow
> "Eroica", even a few minutes worth. But is it true he donned black
> gloves before conducting the Marcia funebre?" That smacks of cheap
> kitschy showmanship even for its era. But it may a legend...
It would not be surprising to me if evidence could be found that a lot of music
making in that era was not far from circus acts.
Dontait...@aol.com
> On Sep 2, 12:03 pm, Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
[snip]
> > By the way, Walker's biography of Bulow is very interesting and
> > worth knowing.
>
> > Don Tait
>
> If only we had that fabled edison cylinder recording of a Von Bulow
> "Eroica", even a few minutes worth. But is it true he donned black
> gloves before conducting the Marcia funebre?" That smacks of cheap
> kitschy showmanship even for its era. But it may a legend.
It's evidently not, and Alan Walker writes about it in his new
biography of Bulow. He writes that Bulow did it just once, at a Berlin
Philharmonic concert near the end of his life. But there were
extenuating circumstances, not kitschy showmanship -- at least for its
own sake.
The circumstances were two: first, the brain tumor that had caused
Bulow pain and mental torment for decades, that was causing
increasingly erractic behavior in him, and that was discovered in the
autopsy after his death. Second, Emperor Wilhelm II's impulsive
decision to fire his great Chancellor Bismarck.
Dontait...@aol.com
Ooops -- I hit the wrong key and my unfinished message was sent. So
here is the rest.
Bulow, like many Germans, was outraged by the Kaiser's act, and used
the performance of the Eroica to demonstrate what he thought the bad
results of Wilhelm's decision would be. Thus the black gloves for a
performance of the Eroica's funeral march. It was a political
statement, not a show business one.
Another thing that Alan Walker's biography of Bulow makes clear is
that his brain tumor (which the autopsy revealed was major but was
evidently not malignant) was the cause not only of the excruciatingly
painful headaches from which he suffered for years but might well have
been the cause of his neurotic and increasingly irrational behavior.
Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:d5a9219f-596b-40a9-af79-
7d5972...@v41g2000yqv.googlegroups.com:
Another musician greatly affected by a brain tumor was, of course, George
Gershwin. Vissarion Shebalin suffered brain damage as a result of a
stroke, and though he lost the ability to speak and had a greatly lessened
ability to recognize objects, he was still miraculously able to compose.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Dontait...@aol.com
> Dontaitchic...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
> typed in news:d5a9219f-596b-40a9-af79-
> 7d59722a7...@v41g2000yqv.googlegroups.com:
> > Another thing that Alan Walker's biography of Bulow makes clear is
> > that his brain tumor (which the autopsy revealed was major but was
> > evidently not malignant) was the cause not only of the excruciatingly
> > painful headaches from which he suffered for years but might well have
> > been the cause of his neurotic and increasingly irrational behavior.
>
> Another musician greatly affected by a brain tumor was, of course, George
> Gershwin. Vissarion Shebalin suffered brain damage as a result of a
> stroke, and though he lost the ability to speak and had a greatly lessened
> ability to recognize objects, he was still miraculously able to compose.
I didn't know about Shebalin. Frightful. At least he was still able
to compose. Yes, Gershwin's case is *truly* frightful.
What Alan Walker says about Hans von Bulow is that the autopsy
revealed that he'd had a major brain tumor for many years at the time
of his death, and that for some reason it had become dormant for many
years. Very much unlike Gershwin, as we know. But nevertherless it
evidently affected Bulow both physically and mentally for decades.
Something that Walker disc usses at length, and that I found utterly
fascinating, is the Bulow/Cosima/Wagner triangle. Everyone knows the
story: Cosima (Liszt's daughter, if it means anything), married to
Bulow, left him and became the devoted wife of Richard Wagner. I'd
always accepted the idea that Wagner, who at best was a cad and at
worst was worse, had conspired to steal his friend and colleague
Bulow's wife from him. Walker details how that wasn't true. In fact,
Bulow treated Cosima so horribly that she, young and in despair, fled.
She turned to anyone -- someone -- who might help her and give her
sympathy and help. That person turned out to be Wagner. But Walker
makes clear that Wagner didn't seduce her or take her away from Bulow.
Bulow drove her away and, moreover, knew about the entire business as
it went along.
It's nice to read *something* nice about Wagner personally, I must
say.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
[edit]
> I have always wondered about just who was playing on some of these
> records.I recall reading in one of these groups that some of the
> "Victor Concert Orchestra" recordings from the late 'teens,and early
> twenties were by either The Boston Symphony,or The Philadelphia
> Orchestra without the resident conductor.
>
> Roger
The "Victor" symphony orchestras were usually members of the
Philadelphia Orchestra. (That's why the playing is so spectacularly
good.) Philadelphia was (and is) right across the river from Camden
New Jersey, where Victor had its headquarters and recording studios.
Boston was many miles away.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
> > I doubt that Weingartner's 1913 American Columbia discs were made
> > with the orchestra of the Boston Opera company. They were made while
> > he was in this country conducting there, but the records were probably
> > made in New York City. I'll try to look the information up in the four-
> > volume set of Columbia matrix numbers and post what I find here.
>
> [snip]
>
> I have been looking through Volume III of the Columbia Master Book
> Discography and have found some information about some of
> Weingartner's acoustical American Columbia recordings, but the
> information is fragmented and wretchedly indexed. It's going to take
> me some hours to track all of the information down. I did learn that
> some of his sides (all with the "Columbia Symphony Orchestra," not
> something from the Boston Opera) were made in early 1914. My error.
>
> Don Tait
I have now been through volume III of the Columbia Master Book
Discography (Tim Brooks and Brian Rust) and have found this
information about Weingartner's American Columbia acoustical
recordings. It wasn't easy; the book is wretchedly indexed indeed. But
here goes. I think these are all of Weingartner's American Columbia
acoustical recordings.
Key: Matrix number and issued taken on the left; catalogue number
next; then recording date; then music and performers. Unfortunately,
recording venues are not shown. I assume New York City, but that's a
guess.
All with "orchestra" (in vocal titles) or "Columbia Symphony
Orchestra" in the rest. All conducted by Felix Weingartner.
36608-1 A5482 2/19/13 Verdi: Otello: Ave Maria (Lucille Weingartner-
Marcel, sop.)
36609 to 36610 untraced (more by them, perhaps?)
36611-1 A5464 2/19/13 Wagner: Tristan: Liebestod (orch. alone)
36612-2 A5464 2/19/13 Weber-(Weingartner?, but anyway cut):
Inivitation to the Dance
36622-1 A5482 2/20/13 Weingartner: "Thou art a child" (Lucille-
Weingartner-Marcel, sop.)
36623 to 36624 untraced. (???)
36914-2 A5594 3/23/14 Wagner: Die Walkure: Magic Fire music
36915-2 A5594 3/23/14 Tchaikovsky: Symphony no. 6: first movement:
main theme
36916-1 A5559 Bizet: Carmen: excerpts
36917-1 A5559 Bizet: L'Arlesienne incidental music: excerpts
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
Sorry. The titles on A5559 were also recorded March 23, 1914.
Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in
news:99b70559-7fa0-4b91...@i13g2000yqd.googlegroups.com:
Well, at least Wagner knew how to take advantage of somebody else's bad
situation so as to make himself look better.
gns
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well, context is everything. That calls for understanding and
compassion and not contempt. I'm happy though to hear it wasn't a
regular custom of his which otherwise smacks of "the science of
Jullien, the eminent musico." As for the politcal statement, I agree
with Toscanini about the Eroica, and, by extension, absolute music in
general "Is not Napoleon, is not Hitler, is Allegro con brio!"
Anyway, even Strauss tone poems work perfectly fine without the
programs. The adventure's in the music.
gns
>
> - Show quoted text -
Now there's a scenario for a movie. Truth is always more interesting
than fiction, or can be made so with a good writer. less to Wagner's
credit is the way he treated Otto Wesendonck. Seduce the guy's wife
who's keeping you afloat. Especially when you're already married. Not
to say he and Matilde went flagrante--my guess is they never did.
gns
The Victor supplements, Volume I, on CD-ROM published by Mainspring
Press actually have a very interesting early supplement identifying
the members of the "Victor Orchestra" which I had always thought was a
pickup group but far from it. Most of the permanent wind players were
recruited from the great bands, particularly Sousa. The nucleus of
players (obviously not large due to restrictions of early acoustic
techn ology) was recruited in 1904. Charles d'Almaine was the solo
violin ; Darius Lyons flute (familiar from coloratura canary discs)
Theodore Levy, 1st violin, who worked with Sousa (yes, string player
though he also played cornet) and Pryor; 1st viola (and saxophone!)
was Frank E. Reschke, who played with Thieles' Symphony Orchestra
(never heard of it) and the Detroit Symphony as well as associations
with several bands. I was interested to learn the identity of the 1st
oboe, Arthur Trepte, as I'd noted some very deft, nicely phrased oboe
solos in some Red Seals. But his bio doesn't say where he came from
(Philly? Herbert's Orchestra?) CHH Booth was the pianist and
organist.
Edward Cowan
Orchestra personnel in _The Philadelphia Orchestra: A Century of Music_,
ed. John Ardoin. (Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1999. --E.A.C.
gns <mcmus...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was interested to learn the identity of the 1st
> oboe, Arthur Trepte, as I'd noted some very deft, nicely phrased oboe
> solos in some Red Seals. But his bio doesn't say where he came from
> (Philly? Herbert's Orchestra?)
--
hrabanus