Re: Fred Astaire as Pianist
td
JohnGavin wrote:
> This clip from the Astaire-Rogers film "Roberta" opens with Fred
> Astaire playing the piano. It's not fake - it's real! I wonder if
> there was anything Fred Astaire couldn't do well!!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oSdBu0JSCE
Well, he was vertically challenged, you know, John.
But that's all.
TD
td
> On Jul 2, 10:12 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
> wrote:> > This clip from the Astaire-Rogers film "Roberta" opens with
> > > I wonder if there was anything Fred Astaire couldn't do well!!
>
> > writers generally liked the way he delivered their songs.
>
> I personally prefer hearing Fred Astaire sing to people like Sinatra
> or Bing Crosby - FA sang in a style that I preferred - I'd call it
> "straight" singing. I'm not a fan of crooning, with all it's
> mannerisms.
Sinatra didn't "croon". Crosby "crooned".
Sinatra simply had a wonderful voice, flawless timing, and an ability
to project the lyrics that made songwriters cream their pants, so to
speak.
According to the bonus commentary track of "Shall We
> Dance" - the great songwriters of the time didn't "generally like the
> way he delivered their songs" - they (including Gershwin) clearly
> preferred his singing to the more popular crooners of the day.
Please call them singers, John, UNLESS they croon.
TD
Matt
news:1183393082.7...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 2, 11:58 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> > Sinatra was one of the biggest Musical phonys of them all.
>> > He was a better actor.
>>
>> As a human being, Frank Sinatra left a lot to be desired.
>
> That's it. I was never able to completely seperate Sinatra's human
> persona from his singing. Ever see Phil Hartman play Sinatra on
> Saturday Night Live? It was comedy, but he captured the arrogance,
> thuggishness and egotism perfectly. That consciousness came through
> in his singing especially as he got older. That whole rat-pack
> mentality - borderline sleazy - not for me, thanks.
>
> Fred Astaire, on the other hand, embodied modesty and discipline -
> even a self-effacing lightness that puts him in a different category
> altogether.
>
Not to belittle your personal reactions to an artist, but I would point out
that very often great artists are not always great people. Certainly the
classical composing and performing tradition is littered with individuals
who were first-class jerks (freely admitting that Sinatra often fit this
description).
Regards,
Matt
HKAlan
rhyme scheme and parts of the lyric don't rhyme. But others parts do
("When you pass through/And there is no one waiting there for
you"-"Unless there's love/A love that's shining like a harbor light/
You're lost in the night").
And other people have covered the song, not that many, but a few
(apart from the various cast recordings). Sinatra may have been the
first, but he's no longer the only one.
And if you count Mary Martin's recording (which you may not, since it
was part of the Decca semi-cast recording), then he wasn't the first.
Alan
On Jul 2, 1:18 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> > IN RMCR if you do not spew accepted myths or someone
> > else's opinion you get into trouble.
>
> My favorite Sinatra album is "Where Are You?". It includes the Bernstein /
> Comden-Green "Lonely Town" (from "On the Town"). This song (one the few
> members of a very small genre -- the non-rhyming through-composed pop lied)
> has never been covered by any other singer. It shows Lenny at his facile
> best, and is impossible to imagine being sung effectively by a "trained"
> singer.
>
> You probably don't like Ella, either.
HKAlan
> I personally prefer hearing Fred Astaire sing to people like Sinatra
> or Bing Crosby - FA sang in a style that I preferred - I'd call it
> "straight" singing. I'm not a fan of crooning, with all it's
> Dance" - the great songwriters of the time didn't "generally like the
> way he delivered their songs" - they (including Gershwin) clearly
> preferred his singing to the more popular crooners of the day.
Did you mean to write that the great songwriters of the time DID
"generally like the way he delivered their songs"? Or did you mean
that they didn't, but nonetheless they still preferred him to the more
popular crooners of the day?
I'm certainly under the impression that Porter, Gershwin, and Berlin
all liked his performances of their songs.
Alan
Matt
news:0k6i8351h4v9040d2...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 08:00:01 -0700, td <tomde...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
> Sinatra was one of the biggest Musical phonys of them all. He was a
> better actor.
>
> and the Reprise recordings are downright embarrassing.
>
Sinatra was not really a jazz singer (even if borrowed liberally from the
jazz idiom). If you say that you prefer more improvisational singers who
see the vocals as another instrument interacting in a musical conversation,
then your dislike of Sinatra makes sense (although in those rare instances
when Sinatra is in a true jazz setting, e.g., Sinatra in Paris, I think he's
still quite good), but you seem to want Sinatra to be doing something that
he and his musical collaborators weren't trying to accomplish.
Regards,
Matt
Frank Berger
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns99618097124...@207.217.125.201...
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> appears to have caused
> the following letters to be typed in
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>
>> As a human being, Frank Sinatra left a lot to be desired. But no one
>> ever told me I was "supposed" to like his singing. No one -- before or
>> since -- has interpreted a song as well as he. Some come close, but no
>> one quite makes it completely.
>>
>> No argument about the quality of his acting.
>
> Even "as a human being," Sinatra was full of contradictions. He truly
> believed that racism and bigotry were among the greatest evils of our
> times, and gave generously to causes fighting them. Oh, some might say, a
> bad man trying to buy his way into heaven; but there is that movie short
> that he made early on in his crooner career, where he had nothing to gain
> personally, and everything to lose, if the message proved unpalatable.
>
Are you referring to "The House I live In?" Even as a kid I loved that.
JohnGavin
Yes, according to the commentary for the "Shall We Dance" DVD Fred
Astaire was the preferred male singer of Gershwin, Berlin, Porter and
Kern.
ansermetniac
Nat Cole did not improvise as a singer. He just had the feel for the
Music in the Jazz Idiom. Sinatra did not
The Way You Look Tonight on Reprise. A horror
Abbedd
Matt
>>
>>Sinatra was not really a jazz singer (even if borrowed liberally from the
>>jazz idiom). If you say that you prefer more improvisational singers who
>>see the vocals as another instrument interacting in a musical
>>conversation,
>>then your dislike of Sinatra makes sense (although in those rare instances
>>when Sinatra is in a true jazz setting, e.g., Sinatra in Paris, I think
>>he's
>>still quite good), but you seem to want Sinatra to be doing something that
>>he and his musical collaborators weren't trying to accomplish.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Matt
>>
>
> Nat Cole did not improvise as a singer. He just had the feel for the
> Music in the Jazz Idiom. Sinatra did not
>
> The Way You Look Tonight on Reprise. A horror
>
Nat King Cole came to popular music from a jazz background (the Nat King
Cole Trio in which he was also an instramentalist); Sinatra did not (the
Tommy Dorsey Band swung about as hard as the Paul Whiteman Orchestra). More
importantly, Sinatra (and Cole for that matter-- especially later Cole) only
assimilated as much jazz as suited their purposes. I don't think either saw
themselves (at least in the context of recording American Pop) as jazz
singers.
I agree that improvisation is only one tool of the jazz singer (although
this is the line I would use to divide between jazz and jazz-influenced
performers). Timing and swing are another. I would argue Sinatra at his
best (and I think that safely excludes 90% of the Reprise recordings)
excelled at both (as did Cole-- a very different artist).
Regards,
Matt
Matt
>
> The Way You Look Tonight on Reprise. A horror
>
I had forgotten which album this was on, and after re-listening to this, I
remember why. Days of Wine and Roses etc. is one of the most dispensable
albums of the 60s (and after the early 60s I have almost zero interest in
Sinatra). My favorite song on the album is "The Way You Look Tonight," but
Sinatra's not doing it any favors (he sounds bored and he struggles with the
pitch). The young Mel Torme is really much better with this particular song
(not to mention Astaire or even the slightly sluggish arrangement Ella uses
on the Kern songbook album).
Regards,
Matt
ansermetniac
I don't think there is any doubt that Nat Cole is a Jazz Singer
singing pop tunes with sometimes indifferent arrangements (not the
trio records). And I don't think there is any question of Nat Cole and
Mel Torme being fine Musicians. Sinatra is one step above Dick Haymes
as a musician, well below Nat, Mel and Fred Astaire. Sinatra, though
is many steps ahead of Eddie Fischer and his ilk who have a nice
sounding voice but haven't a clue what to do with it.
Who told Eddie Fischer that he could sing. His Mother? But he is still
much more enjoyable than the histrionics of Judy Garland and Barbara
Streisand.
The most undertated singer of the 50s? The only one who could give
Elvis a go at both a ballad and a rocker? Ricky Nelson.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UispCK7Q--M
One of the saddest things you will ever see. There is no free lunch
Abbedd
ansermetniac
The Jarmels do a great version
Abbedd
Beaver Lad
JohnGavin <dag...@comcast.net> wrote:
> This clip from the Astaire-Rogers film "Roberta" opens with Fred
> Astaire playing the piano. It's not fake - it's real! I wonder if
> there was anything Fred Astaire couldn't do well!!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oSdBu0JSCE
>
==============================
He also played the accordion!!!
ansermetniac
wrote:
And was very good drummer
Abbedd
Curtis Croulet
L.A. He accumulated boxes and boxes of 10-inch 78s. My favorite record,
when I was a kid, was "Open The Door, Richard" -- a "novelty song" if there
ever was one. I have no idea who sang it.
Sinatra: I had a neighbor who talked about an incident with Sinatra in the
1960s at Uncle Don's toy shop in Palm Springs. Sinatra "hit on" his wife
(at least that was Ray's perspective), who would have been in her thirties
and very attractive, asking her to help him figure out how to work a toy.
I like Sinatra's music. I actually prefer the records to his TV persona,
where his gestures often seem (to me) to be at odds with the music.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
JohnGavin
> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 21:57:50 GMT, Beaver Lad <beaver...@febloo.ralnig>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <1183381877.905583.175...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> >JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >> This clip from the Astaire-Rogers film "Roberta" opens with Fred
> >> Astaire playing the piano. It's not fake - it's real! I wonder if
> >> there was anything Fred Astaire couldn't do well!!
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oSdBu0JSCE
>
> >==============================
>
> >He also played the accordion!!!
>
> And was very good drummer
>
> Abbedd
And he could conduct a band in his own original way (as seen here):
HKAlan
through-composed? After the verse, there's an A section, which is
repeated, then it does go off to C and D sections (C section?) that
don't repeat (though my nonmusician ears tell me that they're
related), but given that repeat of the A section I don't think it can
be called through-composed, can it? At least not if I understand that
term correctly.
Other rhymes, in addition to those I've already mentioned:
A town's a lonely town,
When you pass through
And there is no one waiting there for you,
Then it's a lonely town.
You wander up and down,
The crowds rush by,
A million faces pass before your eye,
Still, it's a lonely town.
In eight lines, we have three rhymes:
town - down
through - you
by - eye
William Sommerwerck
> was part of the Decca semi-cast recording), then he wasn't the first.
Thanks for the clarification. I was deliberately ignoring the cast recording
as that, by definition, is not a cover.
William Sommerwerck
qv, "Easter Parade"
HKAlan
Since she was a star ringer brought in just for the recording of the
selections, it's a fuzzy situation. It's really too bad that we have
no record of John Battles's renditions of Gabey's songs since he does
seem to have been a fine singer.
It's also sad that they deleted most of Bernstein's music from the
film and that Sinatra didn't get to play Gabey and sing those sings,
though it's also easy to understand why that latter choice was made.
Alan
On Jul 2, 7:03 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:
>
mlstein
quite good. (He was a passable songwriter, too.) But he's only playing
half of what you hear. The orchestra was led by both pianos you see on
the set. (Duo-pianists in theater orchestras were common on Broadway
then.) Hal Bourne, Astaire's assistant and rehearsal pianist, was
playing the other piano, but he's never shown.
Not to take away from Astaire, who in my book could do no wrong. But
credit where credit's due...
Michael Steinberg
William Sommerwerck
> "Lonely Town" through-composed?
I'm not sure. Compared to virtually every other pop song I've heard, it
_sounds_ through-composed. It certainly doesn't fit the mold of most popular
music. Frank Loesser wrote a similar piece for "Guys and Dolls", "My Time of
Day". It is missing, significantly, from the movie, as it was far beyond
Marlon Brando's vocal abilities, such as they were.
And _that_ movie raises a couple of interesting points. Frank Sinatra would
have made a far better Sky Masterston -- at least vocally. Frank Loesser
wrote "Adelaide" for the film (and supposedly specifically for Sinatra) --
yet detested Sinatra's performance of it, the two man never speaking again.
_Why_ is beyond me, as the song fits Sinatra's voice and style perfectly.
As for "Lonely Town's" rhyming -- there is no obvious rhyme scheme to it. I
suspect that Comden & Green, knowing just how talented LB was, gave him
something un-conventional he could sink his composing teeth into, and he
returned a truly great song.
TareeDawg
>> Sinatra was one of the biggest Musical phonys of them all.
>> He was a better actor.
>
> told me I was "supposed" to like his singing. No one -- before or since --
> has interpreted a song as well as he. Some come close, but no one quite
> makes it completely.
>
> No argument about the quality of his acting.
Sinatra's "interpretation" of a song, and his diction were almost
peerless, but as a pure singer, per se, he was never in the class of
many others, such as, Tony Bennett.
Nat King Cole was an excellent singer too, with a voice like velvet, and
incidentally, was a fine pianist too. As for Crosby, he was never a
singer. Never in a million years.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:138in3q...@news.supernews.com:
That's the one. Sinatra sure was an enigma, wasn't he?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
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Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:1183407991.642893.128800
@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
> On Jul 2, 4:08 pm, HKAlan <asg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm certainly under the impression that Porter, Gershwin, and Berlin
>> all liked his performances of their songs.
>
> Yes, according to the commentary for the "Shall We Dance" DVD Fred
> Astaire was the preferred male singer of Gershwin, Berlin, Porter and
> Kern.
I was under the impression that Porter felt Sinatra jazzed his songs up too
much. But it didn't stop him from writing those songs for "High Society."
Matthew B. Tepper
@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
> And he could conduct a band in his own original way (as seen here):
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRASbSTLU7w
He also conducted a few sides of music by Alec Wilder. (I know that's not
all he conducted, but I'm trying to veer a bit back on-topic.)
HKAlan
popular song, even one from a Broadway musical. (Though the '40s were
arguably the most experimental decade in the history of the Broadway
musical.) But though I'm not a musician, I wouldn't quite say that it
was through-composed. For one thing it does repeat the A section. I
don't have the score here (and I don't have the greatest ear in the
world), but I think it's a verbatim musical repeat. And even the
verse, though it's uncommonly long and complex, does repeat material.
And the main body of the song (I don't think that refrain would be
quite the right word in this case) does have a very clear rhyme
scheme. Unconventional but clear.
Looking at the lyrics in the published script of On the Town, we have
14 lines of text in the main part of the song, and within those 14
lines are four rhyming pairs. And they are masculine rhymes, clearly
intended as rhymes. Not a huge amount of rhyme, but definitely rhymes.
And the rhyme scheme even emphasizes that the melody repeats, by
having the last word in the first line of each A section rhyme.
What is really unusual is that the verse, which is quite long (also 14
lines of text), has no rhymes. And it certainly has a recitative-like
feel, even though it does basically fall into two A sections, with the
second having variations on the first, but they are clearly the same
basic melody.
But it is quite complex by popular music standards because the first
three lines don't repeat in the first section don't repeat. They have
no counterpart in the second A section. And then at the end of the
second A section of the verse, there's a little coda (codetta?). But
otherwise, we have two A sections in there; they're not absolutely
identical, but they are close enough.
I wonder how many bars are in each section. I suppose I could try to
figure it out, but I don't have time and I might get it wrong. If I
remember (and I probably won't), I'll try to take a look at the score
the next time I'm at the library.
I'm guessing that "My Time of Day" was cut from the movie of Guys and
Dolls less because of Brando's vocal limitations (real though they
were), but because it was deemed too complex and weird and because it
originally was a lead-in to "I've Never Been in Love Before," sadly
not used in the film but replaced by the inferior "A Woman in Love."
It may be that the original song was cut because while Brando and
Simmons might have just about been able to negotiate the notes (even
if not with somewhat approximate intonation), neither would have
sounded too good.
Even in the show, Sky has a relatively limited vocal range, going up
(I believe) only to a D.
There were a lot of people with whom Loesser didn't get along. I don't
know how many Broadway composers were known to have slapped a leading
lady during a rehearsal. And not because she was being difficult, but
because he didn't like the way she was singing his song.
Alan
On Jul 2, 8:14 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:
ansermetniac
wrote:
>As for Crosby, he was never a
>singer. Never in a million years.
But a great comic actor
Abbedd
El Klauso
tune.
Frank Berger
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyş@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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> following letters to be typed in news:138in3q...@news.supernews.com:
>
>> news:Xns99618097124...@207.217.125.201...
>>> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> appears to have
>>> caused the following letters to be typed in
>>> news:qv-dnZJ7W-QSvRTb...@comcast.com:
>>>
>>>> As a human being, Frank Sinatra left a lot to be desired. But no one
>>>> ever told me I was "supposed" to like his singing. No one -- before or
>>>> since -- has interpreted a song as well as he. Some come close, but no
>>>> one quite makes it completely.
>>>>
>>>> No argument about the quality of his acting.
>>>
>>> Even "as a human being," Sinatra was full of contradictions. He truly
>>> believed that racism and bigotry were among the greatest evils of our
>>> times, and gave generously to causes fighting them. Oh, some might
>>> say, a bad man trying to buy his way into heaven; but there is that
>>> movie short that he made early on in his crooner career, where he had
>>> nothing to gain personally, and everything to lose, if the message
>>> proved unpalatable.
>>
>> Are you referring to "The House I live In?" Even as a kid I loved that.
>
> That's the one. Sinatra sure was an enigma, wasn't he?
>
I'm not so sure, actually. He's got the benefit of my doubt.
Richard Schultz
:> Fred Astaire, on the other hand, embodied modesty and discipline -
:> even a self-effacing lightness that puts him in a different category
:> altogether.
: Not to belittle your personal reactions to an artist, but I would point out
: that very often great artists are not always great people. Certainly the
: classical composing and performing tradition is littered with individuals
: who were first-class jerks (freely admitting that Sinatra often fit this
: description).
While Fred Astaire was hardly a jerk in the Sinatra-Mafioso mold, I'm
pretty sure that if you had asked Ginger Rogers for her honest opinion,
it would not have been a very favorable one.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Maybe we need to stop thinking of this as a Mideast crisis and just think
of it as Mideast culture."
-- quoted in _The Onion_, 18 Oct 2000
Curtis Croulet
> tune.
Since I made my remark about liking "Open The Door, Richard!" when I was a
kid, I've learned more about the song than I ever imagined. The first
recording was by "Jack McVey and His All Stars " on the Black and White
label in 1947, but it was covered by many others, including Louis Jordan.
The McVey release, whose record label is reproduced in a Wikipedia article
on this song, is the one we had. I was enlightened to learn that that
particular record was influential in opening the white market to black R&B
music, though I never knew OTDR was considered "R&B." When I was a kid
liking this record, I didn't know, nor would I have cared, that McVey was a
black artist and that the song derived from a black Vaudeville routine.
JohnGavin
> In article <oOcii.7862$Rw1.6...@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net>, Matt <mld...@swbell.net> wrote:
>
> :> Fred Astaire, on the other hand, embodied modesty and discipline -
> :> even a self-effacing lightness that puts him in a different category
> :> altogether.
>
> : Not to belittle your personal reactions to an artist, but I would point out
> : that very often great artists are not always great people. Certainly the
> : classical composing and performing tradition is littered with individuals
> : who were first-class jerks (freely admitting that Sinatra often fit this
> : description).
>
> While Fred Astaire was hardly a jerk in the Sinatra-Mafioso mold, I'm
> pretty sure that if you had asked Ginger Rogers for her honest opinion,
> it would not have been a very favorable one.
>
> -----
I'm very sure that on that note, you are completely and utterly wrong.
JohnGavin
> "JohnGavin" <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1183393082.7...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 2, 11:58 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >> > Sinatra was one of the biggest Musical phonys of them all.
> >> > He was a better actor.
>
>
> > persona from his singing. Ever see Phil Hartman play Sinatra on
> > Saturday Night Live? It was comedy, but he captured the arrogance,
> > thuggishness and egotism perfectly. That consciousness came through
> > in his singing especially as he got older. That whole rat-pack
> > mentality - borderline sleazy - not for me, thanks.
>
> > Fred Astaire, on the other hand, embodied modesty and discipline -
> > even a self-effacing lightness that puts him in a different category
> > altogether.
>
> Not to belittle your personal reactions to an artist, but I would point out
> that very often great artists are not always great people. Certainly the
> classical composing and performing tradition is littered with individuals
> who were first-class jerks (freely admitting that Sinatra often fit this
> description).
>
> Matt- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
That's true without doubt. But I'm sure you'll admit that most of us
react to different types of jerkiness. For instance, when Elizabeth
Schwartzkopf passed away a year or two ago, many posters here
expressed comtempt because of her private involvements - and stated
that they couldn't seperate her personal history from her artistry.
For me, dislike of Frank Sinatra is something along those lines. But
it's an instinctive repulsion as well as an intellectual one.
Everytime I would see him in something, especially in his later years,
I would feel inclined to take a shower.
William Sommerwerck
> I'm pretty sure that if you had asked Ginger Rogers for her honest
> opinion, it would not have been a very favorable one.
I've never seen any negative comment from her about Fred. Indeed, I don't
remember every hearing any significant negative comments about him, either.
Of course, given Fred & Ginger's place in movie history, it would have been
foolish for her to criticize him.
Oddly, Fred made an implicitly unkind remark about Ginger. He said that, of
all the women he'd danced with, Rita Hayworth was his favorite partner. I
assume this was on a strictly technical level -- she was the only one who
could actually keep up with him. Everyone else looks as if they're slightly
lagging or out of phase, or just plain clumsy.
Richard Schultz
:> While Fred Astaire was hardly a jerk in the Sinatra-Mafioso mold,
:> I'm pretty sure that if you had asked Ginger Rogers for her honest
:> opinion, it would not have been a very favorable one.
:
: I've never seen any negative comment from her about Fred. Indeed, I don't
: remember every hearing any significant negative comments about him, either.
: Of course, given Fred & Ginger's place in movie history, it would have been
: foolish for her to criticize him.
I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that she was not always
happy about the amount of rehearsing he made her do. I admit that I
can't remember if it was she who was made to rehearse until her feet bled
by Fred Astaire, or Debbie Reynolds who was made to rehearse until her
feet bled by Gene Kelly. As I recell the story, Astaire's reaction to
her feathery dress in Top Hat was not that of a man who can spread his
ideals on a cracker.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
JohnGavin
> In article <aOSdnb99HsrnrxfbnZ2dnUVZ_gWdn...@comcast.com>, William Sommerwerck <grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote:
> :> While Fred Astaire was hardly a jerk in the Sinatra-Mafioso mold,
> :> I'm pretty sure that if you had asked Ginger Rogers for her honest
> :> opinion, it would not have been a very favorable one.
> :
> : I've never seen any negative comment from her about Fred. Indeed, I don't
> : remember every hearing any significant negative comments about him, either.
> : Of course, given Fred & Ginger's place in movie history, it would have been
> : foolish for her to criticize him.
>
> I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that she was not always
> happy about the amount of rehearsing he made her do. I admit that I
> can't remember if it was she who was made to rehearse until her feet bled
> by Fred Astaire, or Debbie Reynolds who was made to rehearse until her
> feet bled by Gene Kelly. As I recell the story, Astaire's reaction to
> her feathery dress in Top Hat was not that of a man who can spread his
> ideals on a cracker.
>
> -----
> Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
> Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
> -----
> "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
This brings up an interesting question: Where would Ginger Rogers
have been without Fred Astaire? Let's see - she actually won an Oscar
for the film "Kitty Foyle". How many people have seen Kitty Foyle??
She appeared in another very good film "Stage Door", but that was
carried by a large cast with huge star power. She was cast in those
movies on the strength of her popularity with Fred Astaire.
Those hard hours of rehearsal that Fred Astaire always insisted upon
to achieve polish and perfection are what has insured the name Ginger
Rogers will always be known - and I'm sure she realized that. Without
the Astaire films she would have gone down in history as a pretty
starlet. What did Ginger do of any significance after the last
Astaire-Rogers film, The Barclays of Broadway??
Richard Schultz
: Those hard hours of rehearsal that Fred Astaire always insisted upon
: to achieve polish and perfection are what has insured the name Ginger
: Rogers will always be known - and I'm sure she realized that. Without
: the Astaire films she would have gone down in history as a pretty
: starlet. What did Ginger do of any significance after the last
: Astaire-Rogers film, The Barclays of Broadway??
That Ginger Rogers might not have been a star without Fred Astaire rather
supports the point that a great artist (Astaire in this case) is not
necessarily a great person, or at least not necessarily an easy person
to get along with.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"I've lost my harmonica, Albert."
JohnGavin
> In article <1183467296.283412.23...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> : Those hard hours of rehearsal that Fred Astaire always insisted upon
> : to achieve polish and perfection are what has insured the name Ginger
> : Rogers will always be known - and I'm sure she realized that. Without
> : the Astaire films she would have gone down in history as a pretty
> : starlet. What did Ginger do of any significance after the last
> : Astaire-Rogers film, The Barclays of Broadway??
>
> That Ginger Rogers might not have been a star without Fred Astaire rather
> supports the point that a great artist (Astaire in this case) is not
> necessarily a great person, or at least not necessarily an easy person
> to get along with.
>
> -----
> Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
> Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
> -----
> "I've lost my harmonica, Albert."
My overall impression of Fred Astaire, from listening to interviews
with many of his partners (one program aired on PBS in recent weeks)
was that he was very kind, patient and charming - yet a hard
taskmaster first of all with himself, and that his method was to
gently coax his partners to the same level of excellence. He seemed
to be more a craftsman than any kind of star - and I get the distinct
impression that he was very uncomfortable with awards or adulation.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
> That's true without doubt. But I'm sure you'll admit that most of us react
> to different types of jerkiness. For instance, when Elizabeth Schwartzkopf
> passed away a year or two ago, many posters here expressed comtempt because
> of her private involvements - and stated that they couldn't seperate her
> personal history from her artistry.
I hate to Godwinize this thread, but I must say that while the Mafia and the
Nazis are guilty of reprehensible activities, many of us here have far deeper
feelings of loathing for the Nazis.
> For me, dislike of Frank Sinatra is something along those lines. But it's
> an instinctive repulsion as well as an intellectual one. Everytime I would
> see him in something, especially in his later years, I would feel inclined
> to take a shower.
--
William Sommerwerck
> not always happy about the amount of rehearsing he made her
> do. I admit that I can't remember if it was she who was made to
> rehearse until her feet bled by Fred Astaire, or Debbie Reynolds
> who was made to rehearse until her feet bled by Gene Kelly.
It was Astaire and Rogers. And it wasn't rehearsals -- it was the take.
Astaire was a perfectionist, and the scene was shot so many times Rogers
feet bled.
Frank Berger
"JohnGavin" <dag...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1183449441.3...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
You'd think he'd at least given a basis for that opinion.
Frank Berger
"Richard Schultz" <sch...@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message
news:f6dina$dam$1...@news.iucc.ac.il...
> In article <1183467296....@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> JohnGavin <dag...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> : Those hard hours of rehearsal that Fred Astaire always insisted upon
> : to achieve polish and perfection are what has insured the name Ginger
> : Rogers will always be known - and I'm sure she realized that. Without
> : the Astaire films she would have gone down in history as a pretty
> : starlet. What did Ginger do of any significance after the last
> : Astaire-Rogers film, The Barclays of Broadway??
>
> That Ginger Rogers might not have been a star without Fred Astaire rather
> supports the point that a great artist (Astaire in this case) is not
> necessarily a great person, or at least not necessarily an easy person
> to get along with.
>
Please explain how it does that (it doesn't).
Frank Berger
> JohnGavin <dag...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in
> news:1183450567.1...@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
>> That's true without doubt. But I'm sure you'll admit that most of us
>> react
>> to different types of jerkiness. For instance, when Elizabeth
>> Schwartzkopf
>> passed away a year or two ago, many posters here expressed comtempt
>> because
>> of her private involvements - and stated that they couldn't seperate her
>> personal history from her artistry.
>
> I hate to Godwinize this thread, but I must say that while the Mafia and
> the
> Nazis are guilty of reprehensible activities, many of us here have far
> deeper
> feelings of loathing for the Nazis.
>
>> For me, dislike of Frank Sinatra is something along those lines. But
>> it's
>> an instinctive repulsion as well as an intellectual one. Everytime I
>> would
>> see him in something, especially in his later years, I would feel
>> inclined
>> to take a shower.
>
>
millions is worse than killing thousands.
Frank Berger
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:aOSdnb99Hsrnrxfb...@comcast.com...
Um, Cyd Charisse? Eleanor Powell? Clumsy? Not. And regarding Rogers,
this from Astaire himself, assuming the Wikipedia reference is correct:
"According to Astaire,[15] "Ginger had never danced with a partner before.
She faked it an awful lot. She couldn't tap and she couldn't do this and
that ... but Ginger had style and talent and improved as she went along. She
got so that after a while everyone else who danced with me looked wrong.""
William Sommerwerck
> > of
> > all the women he'd danced with, Rita Hayworth was his favorite partner.
I
> > assume this was on a strictly technical level -- she was the only one
who
> > could actually keep up with him. Everyone else looks as if they're
> > slightly lagging or out of phase, or just plain clumsy.
> Um, Cyd Charisse? Eleanor Powell? Clumsy? Not. And regarding Rogers,
> this from Astaire himself, assuming the Wikipedia reference is correct:
> "According to Astaire,[15] "Ginger had never danced with a partner before.
> She faked it an awful lot. She couldn't tap and she couldn't do this and
> that ... but Ginger had style and talent and improved as she went along.
She
> got so that after a while everyone else who danced with me looked wrong.""
My opinion about Rita Hayworth was formed long before I ever heard Fred
Astaire's views on the subject. To me, she seemed his best partner.
Frank Berger
She was wonderful (and extremely hot). As were all of them each in their
own way. Did anyone *really* look clumsy dancing with Astaire?
ansermetniac
What about Vera Ellen as Astaire's best partner
Abbedd
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
- HL Mencken
Frank Berger
"ansermetniac" <anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:rf5l8396e3qlheor0...@4ax.com...
I'm inclined to be non-judgmental on the subject.
JohnGavin
> On Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:43:00 -0500, "Frank Berger"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
It's sad that she died so young, and under such tragic circumstances.
HKAlan
Stage Door (a wonderful film) from the rest of that amazing cast.
Unfortunately, apart from the films she did with Astaire (and the two
mentioned above and a handful of others), it seems that she wasn't in
that many first-rate films, though I can't say definitively because I
haven't seen that many of them. But within her range, she was
terrific. She seems to have been best playing working-class women,
though she desperately wanted to play Elizabeth I, basically a
supporting role, in John Ford's Mary of Scotland, with Hepburn as
Mary.
Actually, she's terrific in Roxie Hart, based on the play Chicago,
which was the source of the musical Chicago. And she's terrific in her
supporting roles in 42nd Street and Gold Diggers of 1933 (two movies I
can live without). She really was a huge star in her day even on her
own, though some of those movies are forgotten now. For instance, the
film version of Lady in the Dark was a big hit, even though it is now
viewed (by the few who know it) as a pretty total botch.
After the Barkleys of Broadway, she started doing stage again, where
she was only moderately successful. She never had much of a singing
voice. One thing that's forgotten is that she was the star on Broadway
of the Gershwins' musical Girl Crazy, shortly before she went to
Hollywood, but of course that was the show that made Merman a star.
Vocally, she was no competition for Merman, who stole the show in her
supporting role. Rogers would not have been given the chance to sing I
Got Rhythm.
Her last Broadway credit was as a replacement in Hello, Dolly! (Merman
was also a replacement Dolly, after having turned down the chance to
create the role because she didn't want to commit to a long run at
that point in her career. And one of Rogers's last movies was the
final big RKO disaster, The First Travelling Salesday, in which her co-
star was Carol Channing.)
Rogers played Dolly for a year and a half on Broadway, though her
understudy went on a lot. She did a lot of musicals and a few plays in
summer stock. She never made the transition to character actress in
the movies. Her movie career was over when she was in her mid-40s.
Would she have become a star on her own? I don't know. But she was
very good within her range.
Alan
On Jul 3, 8:54 am, JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
> This brings up an interesting question: Where would Ginger Rogers
> have been without Fred Astaire? Let's see - she actually won an Oscar
> for the film "Kitty Foyle". How many people have seen Kitty Foyle??
> She appeared in another very good film "Stage Door", but that was
> carried by a large cast with huge star power. She was cast in those
> movies on the strength of her popularity with Fred Astaire.
>
Andrew Clarke
> She was wonderful (and extremely hot). As were all of them each in their
> own way. Did anyone *really* look clumsy dancing with Astaire?
This was I believe, Ginger Roger's opinion -- that her own dancing was
never more than adequate, but that any woman looked great if they were
dancing with Fred Astaire.
AC
C
Frank Berger
"Andrew Clarke" <a...@cts.canberra.edu.au> wrote in message
news:1183519346.6...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
I used to watch Astaire dance and look for a finger or hair or something out
of place and couldn't find anything. Of his partners, I loved Rogers' sass
(yes, that's sass, Charisse's legs, Hayworth's stunning beauty. Barrie
Chase was one of the best dancers but she didn't do much for me for some
reason.
Richard Schultz
: "Richard Schultz" <sch...@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message
Actually, it does. An easy person to get along with would not have driven
Rogers as hard as Astaire did, and wouldn't have thrown a tantrum about
the feathers escaping from her dress. As an added point in that direction,
I could point to the "bonus material" found with my _Band Wagon_ DVD set.
It was pointed out (I forget by whom) that Astaire in general did not
do dance routines with other men, but that in the case of Jack Buchanan,
Astaire did not see him as competition (unlike Gene Kelly, say). Surely
a truly great person would be above such trivialities.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
Richard Schultz
:> That Ginger Rogers might not have been a star without Fred Astaire rather
:> supports the point that a great artist (Astaire in this case) is not
:> necessarily a great person, or at least not necessarily an easy person
:> to get along with.
: Please explain how it does that (it doesn't).
Actually, it does. If Fred Astaire (I assume that there is no dispute
that he was a great artist) had been "easy to get along with," he would
not have driven Ginger Rogers as hard as he did, had a tantrum about
feathers escaping from her dress, etc.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
Richard Schultz
: My opinion about Rita Hayworth was formed long before I ever heard Fred
: Astaire's views on the subject.
I guess you can put the blame on Mame.
: To me, she seemed his best partner.
My vote (no secret about this) goes to Cyd Charisse. Their "Dancing in
the Dark" performance is as good an example as any of a coded message
getting censorial approval.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be, and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
Richard Schultz
I'm hardly the first to say this, but Fred Astaire may have been the
only dancer who could dance with a coat rack and make the coat rack look good.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
Frank Berger
You started out being critical of Astaire without apparent knowledge or
basis, softened your stance a bit and now are trying to imply that his
having high standards for himself and his co-performers was a negative
attribute of some kind. I don't consider such people "hard to get along
with." People with lower standards do, however.
Astaire danced with George Burns, Bing Crosby, LeRoy Daniels, Gene Kelly,
and George Murphy in addition to Buchanan. I suppose you could still say
he "in general did not do dance routines with other men." I wouldn't have
bothered.
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:f6fa68$78s$7...@news.iucc.ac.il:
> In article <1183519346.6...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew Clarke <a...@cts.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>: On Jul 4, 3:43 am, "Frank Berger" <frank.d.ber...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>:
>:> She was wonderful (and extremely hot). As were all of them each in
>:> their own way. Did anyone *really* look clumsy dancing with Astaire?
>:
>: This was I believe, Ginger Roger's opinion -- that her own dancing was
>: never more than adequate, but that any woman looked great if they were
>: dancing with Fred Astaire.
>
> I'm hardly the first to say this, but Fred Astaire may have been the only
> dancer who could dance with a coat rack and make the coat rack look good.
Coat rack, si; Dirt Devil, no!
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:138m6oa...@news.supernews.com:
> I used to watch Astaire dance and look for a finger or hair or something
> out of place and couldn't find anything. Of his partners, I loved Rogers'
> sass (yes, that's sass), Charisse's legs, Hayworth's stunning beauty.
> Barrie Chase was one of the best dancers but she didn't do much for me for
> some reason.
So in other words, she was the Emerson Quartet of dancers?
Richard Schultz
: You started out being critical of Astaire without apparent knowledge or
: basis. . .
If you didn't know previously that if you begin with a false premise, the
truth of anything derived from that premise is suspect, now would be a
good time to learn.
Frank Berger
> In article <138mcks...@news.supernews.com>, Frank Berger
> <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>
> : You started out being critical of Astaire without apparent knowledge or
> : basis. . .
>
> If you didn't know previously that if you begin with a false premise, the
> truth of anything derived from that premise is suspect, now would be a
> good time to learn.
>
> -----
My point exactly.
JohnGavin
> In article <138kt9alqk13...@news.supernews.com>, Frank Berger <frank.d.ber...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>
> : "Richard Schultz" <schu...@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message
> :news:f6dina$dam$1...@news.iucc.ac.il...
> :> In article <1183467296.283412.23...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> :> JohnGavin <dagd...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> :> : Those hard hours of rehearsal that Fred Astaire always insisted upon
> :> : to achieve polish and perfection are what has insured the name Ginger
> :> : Rogers will always be known - and I'm sure she realized that. Without
> :> : the Astaire films she would have gone down in history as a pretty
> :> : starlet. What did Ginger do of any significance after the last
> :> : Astaire-Rogers film, The Barclays of Broadway??
>
> :> That Ginger Rogers might not have been a star without Fred Astaire rather
> :> supports the point that a great artist (Astaire in this case) is not
> :> necessarily a great person, or at least not necessarily an easy person
> :> to get along with.
>
> : Please explain how it does that (it doesn't).
>
> Actually, it does. An easy person to get along with would not have driven
> Rogers as hard as Astaire did, and wouldn't have thrown a tantrum about
> the feathers escaping from her dress. As an added point in that direction,
> I could point to the "bonus material" found with my _Band Wagon_ DVD set.
> It was pointed out (I forget by whom) that Astaire in general did not
> do dance routines with other men, but that in the case of Jack Buchanan,
> Astaire did not see him as competition (unlike Gene Kelly, say). Surely
> a truly great person would be above such trivialities.
Here's a clip of Fred Astaire dancing with Gene Kelly from "Zigfeld
Follies" followed by Gene Kelly paying tribute to Fred at an awards,
thanking him for years of close friendship.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cHuBKDPfE0
Eva Astaire tells the story of her father and Gene Kelly frequently
sitting together at parties, pretending to talk business in order to
avoid being asked to dance by various women.
I think your take on FA is really off the mark.
>
> -----
> Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il
David Weiner
>
>Nat King Cole came to popular music from a jazz background (the Nat King
>Cole Trio in which he was also an instramentalist); Sinatra did not (the
>Tommy Dorsey Band swung about as hard as the Paul Whiteman Orchestra).
This is just plain not true. The Dorsey band of the 1940s was a swing
powerhouse, with Ziggy Elman, Charlie Shavers, Buddy De Franco, Buddy
Rich, Louis Bellson and other stellar names, plus the arrangements of
Sy Oliver. They could swing the pants off any other white, and many
black, big bands.
And in its own way, the classic Whiteman band of the late 1920s swung
in a very credible manner.
Dave Weiner
Frank Berger
"Wayne Reimer" <wrdslremovethis濃pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.20f5a6f24...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
> In article <138ktd3...@news.supernews.com>,
> frank.d...@dal.frb.org says...
>
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy鑂earthlink.net> wrote in message
important point.
Only an asshole or an idiot would aver that I thought it *was* the most
important point.
Matt
news:521o83pbtcvkf12od...@4ax.com...
>
>>
>>Nat King Cole came to popular music from a jazz background (the Nat King
>>Cole Trio in which he was also an instramentalist); Sinatra did not (the
>>Tommy Dorsey Band swung about as hard as the Paul Whiteman Orchestra).
>
> This is just plain not true. The Dorsey band of the 1940s was a swing
> powerhouse, with Ziggy Elman, Charlie Shavers, Buddy De Franco, Buddy
> Rich, Louis Bellson and other stellar names, plus the arrangements of
> Sy Oliver. They could swing the pants off any other white, and many
> black, big bands.
I was employing a bit of hyperbole for effect (even Ellington admired
Whiteman). However the fact remains that Dorsey is mainly remembered today
as a "sweet" band, and this was definitely the niche he tried to carve out
for himself at the time.
Regards,
Matt
ansermetniac
>"David Weiner" <djw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:521o83pbtcvkf12od...@4ax.com...
>>
>>>
>>>Nat King Cole came to popular music from a jazz background (the Nat King
>>>Cole Trio in which he was also an instramentalist); Sinatra did not (the
>>>Tommy Dorsey Band swung about as hard as the Paul Whiteman Orchestra).
>>
>> This is just plain not true. The Dorsey band of the 1940s was a swing
>> powerhouse, with Ziggy Elman, Charlie Shavers, Buddy De Franco, Buddy
>> Rich, Louis Bellson and other stellar names, plus the arrangements of
>> Sy Oliver. They could swing the pants off any other white, and many
>> black, big bands.
>
>I was employing a bit of hyperbole for effect (even Ellington admired
>Whiteman). However the fact remains that Dorsey is mainly remembered today
>as a "sweet" band, and this was definitely the niche he tried to carve out
>for himself at the time.
Things changed a little bit when Sy Oliver took over.
Abbedd
Gregory Morrow
Matt wrote:
> "JohnGavin" <dag...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:1183393082.7...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jul 2, 11:58 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >> > Sinatra was one of the biggest Musical phonys of them all.
> >> > He was a better actor.
> >>
> >> As a human being, Frank Sinatra left a lot to be desired.
> >
> > That's it. I was never able to completely seperate Sinatra's human
> > persona from his singing. Ever see Phil Hartman play Sinatra on
> > Saturday Night Live? It was comedy, but he captured the arrogance,
> > thuggishness and egotism perfectly. That consciousness came through
> > in his singing especially as he got older. That whole rat-pack
> > mentality - borderline sleazy - not for me, thanks.
> >
> > Fred Astaire, on the other hand, embodied modesty and discipline -
> > even a self-effacing lightness that puts him in a different category
> > altogether.
> >
>
> Not to belittle your personal reactions to an artist, but I would point
out
> that very often great artists are not always great people. Certainly the
> classical composing and performing tradition is littered with individuals
> who were first-class jerks (freely admitting that Sinatra often fit this
> description).
Sinatra described himself as a "24 - karat manic - depressive"...
He did lots of awful things to people, but OTOH he also did a lot of great
things for people, some of them who were really down on their luck and
needed their rent or doctor bills paid or simply a kind word...and he did
some of this quietly, too, he could be quite self - effacing about it.
The guy had a lot of demons, they often got a hold of him.
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
William Sommerwerck wrote:
> > While Fred Astaire was hardly a jerk in the Sinatra-Mafioso mold,
> > I'm pretty sure that if you had asked Ginger Rogers for her honest
> > opinion, it would not have been a very favorable one.
>
> I've never seen any negative comment from her about Fred. Indeed, I don't
> remember every hearing any significant negative comments about him,
either.
> Of course, given Fred & Ginger's place in movie history, it would have
been
> foolish for her to criticize him.
>
> Oddly, Fred made an implicitly unkind remark about Ginger. He said that,
of
> all the women he'd danced with, Rita Hayworth was his favorite partner. I
> assume this was on a strictly technical level -- she was the only one who
> could actually keep up with him. Everyone else looks as if they're
slightly
> lagging or out of phase, or just plain clumsy.
An exception to that would be he and Kay Thompson doing the _Clap Yo' Hands_
number in the 1957 musical _Funny Face_...apparently Astaire loathed her
because she could dance rings around him. Thompson had quite a pedigree and
she was not afraid to show it (in the film she plays a wasp - ish fashion
magazine editor, her character's persona was not too far removed from her
real - life one). That's the only incidence I've ever heard of Astaire
being "jealous" of a partner...
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
David Weiner wrote:
> >Nat King Cole came to popular music from a jazz background (the Nat King
> >Cole Trio in which he was also an instramentalist); Sinatra did not (the
> >Tommy Dorsey Band swung about as hard as the Paul Whiteman Orchestra).
>
> This is just plain not true. The Dorsey band of the 1940s was a swing
> powerhouse, with Ziggy Elman, Charlie Shavers, Buddy De Franco, Buddy
> Rich, Louis Bellson and other stellar names, plus the arrangements of
> Sy Oliver. They could swing the pants off any other white, and many
> black, big bands.
And don't forget the Pied Pipers...!!!
:-)
--
Best
Greg
Gregory Morrow
William Sommerwerck wrote:
> > Have you ever heard?
> > 1) Goody Goody by Frankie Lymon
> > 2) You Make Me Feel So Young By Chet Baker
>
> No, and if I did and decided I liked their interpretations better, that
> wouldn't change my overall opinion of Frank Sinatra. I'm not claiming that
> everything he did was definitive -- but a lot of it is.
>
>
> > and if Sinatra had to sing Round and Round he would heave
> > tripped over his penis* trying to get the rhythm to swing
>
> Perhaps, but this isn't the sort of song he would have recorded. One
reason
> Sinatra left Columbia was Mitch Miller's continuing pressure to get him to
> sing novelty songs. However, you should hear how wonderfully he performs
> some of them.
I'm actually quite fond of _Mama Will Bark_...and also _The Hucklebuck_. The
latter swings pretty well...
;-)
--
Best
Greg
William Sommerwerck
> _The Hucklebuck_. The latter swings pretty well...
There's also one about putting a penny in a gum ball machine. Sinatra
performs them as if they were actually good songs, and nearly convinces you.
clarkster
partner. One reason she's semi-forgotten in this regard is that
neither of the two films she starred with Astaire--"Three Little
Words" and "The Belle of New York"--were classics. In fact, Belle
flopped badly. But is sure wasn't because of the dancing. Their three
duets from that film were little masterpieces.
>
> What about Vera Ellen as Astaire's best partner
>
> Abbedd
>
> Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
> - HL Mencken- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
rarp...@sneakemail.com
> JohnGavin wrote:
> > This clip from the Astaire-Rogers film "Roberta" opens with Fred
> > Astaire playing the piano. It's not fake - it's real! I wonder if
> > there was anything Fred Astaire couldn't do well!!
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oSdBu0JSCE
>
> Well, he was vertically challenged, you know, John.
>
> But that's all.
>
> TD
Huzzah and hear hear! A comment of the type frequently uttered by
those enowed with the potential and trained strenuously to achieve
that most difficult of ability: looking down at others of lesser
stature. Keep it up, let no-one claim otherwise, and nurture your
knees and your posture!
JohnGavin
ansermetniac
wrote:
he plays in Follow the Fleet too
Abbedd
William Sommerwerck
> I wonder if there was anything Fred Astaire couldn't do well!!
Strictly speaking, sing. He didn't have a very good "voice". But song
writers generally liked the way he delivered their songs.
Bear in mind that Mr. Austerlitz lived during a time when it was much more
common for children to take music lessons. And as a vaudeville performer, it
would have been foolish for him not to know how to play the piano or violin.
As I mentioned in my comments on "Song of Love", all the actors playing the
principal characters -- Bob & Clara & Johannes & Franz -- are shown actually
playing the piano.
One of the greatest mistakes I ever made was not learning an instrument. My
mother could play -- a little -- and said she wanted a piano, but would get
one only if I'd take lessons and stick with them. I said I wouldn't, so she
didn't.
JohnGavin
wrote:
> > This clip from the Astaire-Rogers film "Roberta" opens with
> > Fred Astaire playing the piano. It's not fake -- it's real!
> > I wonder if there was anything Fred Astaire couldn't do well!!
>
> Strictly speaking, sing. He didn't have a very good "voice". But song
> writers generally liked the way he delivered their songs.
>
or Bing Crosby - FA sang in a style that I preferred - I'd call it
"straight" singing. I'm not a fan of crooning, with all it's
mannerisms. According to the bonus commentary track of "Shall We
Dance" - the great songwriters of the time didn't "generally like the
way he delivered their songs" - they (including Gershwin) clearly
preferred his singing to the more popular crooners of the day.
Frank Berger
With the exception of his later years, when he liked to fool around, I
don't think of Sinatra as singing in a mannered way at all. The greatest
singer of all, IMO. Not that I don't love Astaire also.
ansermetniac
>Sinatra didn't "croon".
Sinatra was one of the biggest Musical phonys of them all. He was a
better actor.
As a jazz singer he was ludicrous.His records with Riddle are horrible
and the Reprise recordings are downright embarrassing.
Mel, Nat, Chet et all have nothing to fear from Sinatra.
As a pop singer he was badly outsung by Como and many others.
He benefited by being born with perfect pitch and being popular with
the teenage girls. He certainly is not in Elvis's class. And Frankie
Lymon cuts him to shreds in the song Goody Goody.
Crosby? A great comic actor but if you took a radius of any ten miles,
you could find 5 singers that sang more Musically than he did.
Abbedd
MrT
> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 08:00:01 -0700, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> >Sinatra didn't "croon".
>
> Sinatra was one of the biggest Musical phonys of them all. He was a
> better actor.
>
> As a jazz singer he was ludicrous.His records with Riddle are horrible
> and the Reprise recordings are downright embarrassing.
>
> Mel, Nat, Chet et all have nothing to fear from Sinatra.
>
> As a pop singer he was badly outsung by Como and many others.
>
> He benefited by being born with perfect pitch and being popular with
> the teenage girls. He certainly is not in Elvis's class. And Frankie
> Lymon cuts him to shreds in the song Goody Goody.
Nonsense. Maybe you have subjected Sinatra to your sinister
reequalizations? Frank could sing jazz like few, he understood the art
and he adapted his vocal instrument perfectly. All of this is not even
controversial among his enemies... Maybe the years of playing the mad
inventor have eroded your ears beyond salvation?
Regards,
mrt
William Sommerwerck
> He was a better actor.
As a human being, Frank Sinatra left a lot to be desired. But no one ever
told me I was "supposed" to like his singing. No one -- before or since --
has interpreted a song as well as he. Some come close, but no one quite
makes it completely.
No argument about the quality of his acting.
ansermetniac
Compare the 1941 Let's Get Away From it all with the 50s Bilyl May
arranged record. In 1941 Dorsey and Sy Oliver and the men of the band
were in control. In the 50s Sinatra was in control and swings like a
german jazz band.
Disagree with me but don't sink to the level of character assaination.
Unless you are THAT insecure.
Abbedd
ansermetniac
Have you ever heard?
1) Goody Goody by Frankie Lymon
2) You Make Me Feel So Young By Chet Baker
and if Sinatra had to sing Round and Round he would heave tripped over
his penis* trying to get the rhythm to swing
Abbedd
* The man may be 120 pounds but 100 pounds of it are cock
Ava Gardner
JohnGavin
wrote:
> > Sinatra was one of the biggest Musical phonys of them all.
> > He was a better actor.
>
> As a human being, Frank Sinatra left a lot to be desired.
That's it. I was never able to completely seperate Sinatra's human
ansermetniac
>You certainly march to the tune of different drummer, don't you?
I am my own drummer.
IN RMCR if you do not spew accepted myths or someone else's opinion
you get into trouble.
Abbedd
William Sommerwerck
> 1) Goody Goody by Frankie Lymon
> 2) You Make Me Feel So Young By Chet Baker
No, and if I did and decided I liked their interpretations better, that
wouldn't change my overall opinion of Frank Sinatra. I'm not claiming that
everything he did was definitive -- but a lot of it is.
> and if Sinatra had to sing Round and Round he would heave
> tripped over his penis* trying to get the rhythm to swing
Perhaps, but this isn't the sort of song he would have recorded. One reason
William Sommerwerck
> else's opinion you get into trouble.
My favorite Sinatra album is "Where Are You?". It includes the Bernstein /
Comden-Green "Lonely Town" (from "On the Town"). This song (one the few
members of a very small genre -- the non-rhyming through-composed pop lied)
has never been covered by any other singer. It shows Lenny at his facile
best, and is impossible to imagine being sung effectively by a "trained"
singer.
You probably don't like Ella, either.
ansermetniac
Matthew B. Tepper
the following letters to be typed in
news:GvidndL5mb38shTb...@comcast.com:
> Perhaps, but this isn't the sort of song he would have recorded. One
> reason Sinatra left Columbia was Mitch Miller's continuing pressure to
> get him to sing novelty songs. However, you should hear how wonderfully
> he performs some of them.
Have you read _The Label_ by Gary Marmorstein? The whole Sinatra-at-
Columbia business is covered, although I've seen complaints that the writer
is too sympathetic toward Mitch Miller.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Matthew B. Tepper
the following letters to be typed in
> As a human being, Frank Sinatra left a lot to be desired. But no one
> ever told me I was "supposed" to like his singing. No one -- before or
> since -- has interpreted a song as well as he. Some come close, but no
> one quite makes it completely.
>
> No argument about the quality of his acting.
Even "as a human being," Sinatra was full of contradictions. He truly
believed that racism and bigotry were among the greatest evils of our
times, and gave generously to causes fighting them. Oh, some might say, a
bad man trying to buy his way into heaven; but there is that movie short
that he made early on in his crooner career, where he had nothing to gain
personally, and everything to lose, if the message proved unpalatable.