RIP Countess Esterhazy, or, How Much Is That Bunny In The Window?

[Andrew Clarke]

The Daily Telegraph in London has just published an obituary of a woman whose mother makes Zsa Zsa Gabor look like St Therese of Lisieux. Her family, among other things, employed Joseph Haydn

"Countess Bunny Esterházy, who has died aged 82, was a well-known figure in international society in the mid-1950s and in the racing world, where she had notable success in the 1970s and 1980s. She was the only daughter of Count Tamás (Thomas) Esterházy, and his wife “Etti”, Countess Wurmbrand, who had six husbands by the age of 40 and was latterly known as Mrs Arpad Plesch, a legendary figure on the turf and the only female owner to win the Derby twice.

Bunny was born in Vienna as Countess Marianne Berta Felicie Johanna Ghislaine Theodora Huberta Georgina Helene Genoveva Esterházy on December 12 1938. She should have had a glorious childhood. She was given a pet deer and her own carriage, though her father had to confiscate a dog she was given when he realised it was a wolf.

But it was difficult from the start: Bunny was hardly born when her mother consigned her to nurses and sent her to stay with friends. She was not even a year old when the Second World War intervened, but a more serious threat came from the literary femme fatale, Louise de Vilmorin, with whom her father became infatuated ...

After more attempts at finding stability, Bunny’s mother finally married Dr Arpad Plesch in 1954. He was an immensely rich Hungarian financier, with business interests in Haiti, but he was dogged by numerous sinister rumours as to his financial dealings. Etti finally became a very rich woman. Bunny used to say of her mother that she merged her life with whichever man she was with: “If he was interested in butterflies, she was interested in butterflies.”

The Plesches and Bunny lived in considerable style in the Avenue Foch in Paris and at the Villa Leonina at Beaulieu-sur-Mer in the South of France. Plesch’s prior marital life had been as controversial as his business dealings. He had married first Mrs Ulam, and then her daughter, Miss Ulam. He had a granddaughter, Florence “Flockie” Harcourt-Smith, who was also his stepdaughter, and some suggested perhaps his daughter."

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Dan Koren]

The favor of an OT would have been much appreciated!
The connection to Papa Haydn sounds too tenuous to
qualify this topic for r.m.c.r. -- or was he also involved
somehow in the genealogy of this marvel?

dk

[Andrew Clarke]

Yes, there should have been an [OT] as I realised shortly after submitting the post, so apologies are due. In my own defence I can only argue that the content is hardly more OT than a lot of what gets posted here, and it's arguable that it's much more interesting ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Dan Koren]

On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 5:27:18 AM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 6:02:33 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > The favor of an OT would have been much appreciated!
> > The connection to Papa Haydn sounds too tenuous to
> > qualify this topic for r.m.c.r. -- or was he also involved
> > somehow in the genealogy of this marvel?
>

> Yes, there should have been an [OT] as I realised shortly
> after submitting the post, so apologies are due.

No apologies due for anything. I am not complaining
about the content being OT. Just about the lack of an
appropriate tag.

> In my own defence I can only argue that the content
> is hardly more OT than a lot of what gets posted here,
> and it's arguable that it's much more interesting ...

Especially if Papa Haydn was involved in any way .....

dk

[Andrew Clarke]

Speaking of off-topic threads that have appeared in this group. I should mention that the presence of Bunny Esterhazy's Hungarian Jewish stepfather at such exalted gatherings suggests that the alleged anti-semitism of the British upper classes is so slight as to be invisible.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Dan Koren]

On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 5:12:45 PM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 10:36:15 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 5:27:18 AM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 25, 2021 at 6:02:33 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The favor of an OT would have been much appreciated!
> > > > The connection to Papa Haydn sounds too tenuous to
> > > > qualify this topic for r.m.c.r. -- or was he also involved
> > > > somehow in the genealogy of this marvel?
> > >
> > > Yes, there should have been an [OT] as I realised shortly
> > > after submitting the post, so apologies are due.
> >
> > No apologies due for anything. I am not complaining
> > about the content being OT. Just about the lack of an
> > appropriate tag.
> >
> > > In my own defence I can only argue that the content
> > > is hardly more OT than a lot of what gets posted here,
> > > and it's arguable that it's much more interesting ...
> > Especially if Papa Haydn was involved in any way .....
>

> Speaking of off-topic threads that have appeared in
> this group. I should mention that the presence of
> Bunny Esterhazy's Hungarian Jewish stepfather at
> such exalted gatherings suggests that the alleged
> anti-semitism of the British upper classes is so slight
> as to be invisible.

Didn't they tolerate Disraeli? Suitably sanitized of course.

dk

[Andrew Clarke]

I don't think anybody much would have considered Disraeli's or Mendelssohn's reception into the Anglican and Lutheran Churches respectively as suitably or unsuitably sanitising them. Both were known as Jewish, both were accepted as Jewish and both were idolised. The 'sanitisation' notion is yours, not that of the British public.

As for Arpad Plesch, I'm sure nobody knew nor cared whether he had turned away from the religion of his forefathers. Despite some behaviour that might be held odd in any religious community, such as burying a wife and then marrying her stepdaughter, he seems to have moved in high society all over western Europe. The fact that he was immensely rich - some hinted by unworthy means - may have had something to do with it.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Dan Koren]

> I don't think anybody much would have considered Disraeli's
> or Mendelssohn's reception into the Anglican and Lutheran
> Churches respectively as suitably or unsuitably sanitising
> them. Both were known as Jewish, both were accepted as
> Jewish and both were idolised. The 'sanitisation' notion is
> yours, not that of the British public.

You are rewriting history. The circumstances of Disraeli's
and Mendelssohn's parents conversions are thoroughly
documented. They converted in order to be able to
engage in businesses that would have been off
limits to them because of the laws in force at
the time. No more, no less, and nothing else.

dk

[Frank Berger]

Also, antisemitism, or anti-anything, isn't a yes/no, on/off proposition. The extent to which it is manifested depends on a lot of things, too obvious to bother to mention. To say that there was no antisemitism among British elite is ridiculous.

[Andrew Clarke]

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 3:22:48 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:

> Also, antisemitism, or anti-anything, isn't a yes/no, on/off proposition. The extent to which it is manifested depends on a lot of things, too obvious to bother to mention. To say that there was no antisemitism among British elite is ridiculous.

Mendelssohn was a guest of royalty and the Rothschilds were a power in the land. Certainly the aristocracy preferred to socialise and to marry among themselves for dynastic reasons, but this generally excluded the vast majority of the UK population, not just the Jewish bits. Right at the other end of the spectrum, the British Union of Fascists in the 1930s found most of its support among the dockers, labourers and small shopkeepers of London's East End. The East End Jewish community - now largely replaced by Bangladeshis - had gone there to get away from countries where antisemitism was very real and very dangerous. Unlike Britain.

Yes, people used to tell Jewish jokes, but the best ones came from America, and especially Jewish America ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Frank Berger]

Certainly there are degrees of evil, and I don't believe preferring your children to marry within the fold is prejudice, per se. I am reminded of something I heard somewhere about the City University of New York in the 1930s and 1940s. Lots of Jewish professors; couldn't be much antisemitism, right? Students used to say, "All my best professors are Jewish," or "Boy, those Jewish professors are good," or the like. And they were. Because a Jew had to be outstanding in his field to get hired at that time and that place.

[Dan Koren]

> Also, antisemitism, or anti-anything,
> isn't a yes/no, on/off proposition.

Of course not, and I did not claim it was.

> The extent to which it is manifested
> depends on a lot of things, too obvious
> to bother to mention.

Some of their best friends were Jewish.
Or their bankers or their physicians.

> To say that there was no antisemitism
> among British elite is ridiculous.

Indeed, the British elite seems to specialize
in ridiculousness.

dk

[Frank Berger]

I was responding to Andrew's remarkable remark.

[Dan Koren]

What is so remarkable about Andrew's remark?

dk

[Frank Berger]

II thought we agreed that he underestimated British elite antisemitism. Anything remark that I remark on is remarkable, by definition.

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 11:17:25 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 12/27/2021 8:28 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 2:28:49 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 12/26/2021 10:57 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 11:22:48 AM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Also, antisemitism, or anti-anything,
> >>>> isn't a yes/no, on/off proposition.
> >>>
> >>> Of course not, and I did not claim it was.
> >>>
> >> I was responding to Andrew's remarkable remark.
> >
> > What is so remarkable about Andrew's remark?
>

> II thought we agreed

We had not agreed.

> that he underestimated British elite antisemitism.

All things British are so misunderstimated! ;-)

> Anything remark that I remark on is remarkable,
> by definition.

?!?

dk

[Andrew Clarke]

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 3:22:48 AM UTC+11, Frank Berger wrote:

Frank, it is actually extremely difficult to be an antisemite in Britain because of the extreme difficulty in actually running across Jewish people there. AIUI the most prominent Jewish community lives in North London. There used to be communities of "rag trade Jews" - their expression, not mine - in towns and cities like Manchester and Leeds and Bradford, dealing in locally produced textiles, but with the closure of the mills on both sides of the Pennines, there isn't really a rag trade there any more. Yes, in London you'd get sour remarks about pawnbrokers and moneylenders and bankers, but you get that all over the world: its historic roots lie, I believe in the religious laws about lending money at interest, Jewish and Catholic. In modern Britain I see quite a few Jewish names in journalism, and in the entertainment industry, ever a way for a poor immigrant boy from the slums to make good, both in the UK and America. I imagine it could be hard in the 19th century for a Jewish Brit to get into a gentleman's club, but then the vast majority of Brit goyim wouldn't have got in either. And I'm sure the same difficulties might have arisen in the same kind of clubs in New York, Boston and Richmond VA, or indeed Melbourne, Australia.

I have read that British Jewry is getting more and more orthodox, as more and more young men in the older communities marry non-Jewish girls, but a thriving community of large Haredi families is growing in Stamford Hill, also in London. This may or may not be taking place in the USA

Outside the short-lived British Union of Fascists, the only antisemitic comments I've read came from a gentleman of letters called T.S. Eliot, and another called Ezra Pound. And where did *they* come from?

There has certainly never been the degree of antisemitism in the UK to match that to be found long before 1933 in Central Europe or indeed France: there have been no British Dreyfuses. And never hear about Polish antisemitism or White Russian antisemitism for example. But you see, there are thousands of Americans who still identify to a large extent as Polish or Russian. And they vote.

Of course if you and Mr Piano Man have any solid evidence of specifically antisemitic measures taken by the UK elite, I'll be happy to read about them,

Zay shtark en freylich,

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 2:57:33 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

> Indeed, the British elite seems to specialize
> in ridiculousness.

Well the ridiculousness or presumed but never demonstrated antisemitism of the British elite doesn't seem to extend to Jewish musicians. Years ago, if you were a promising young American musician you'd have gone to Los Angeles or New York. These days, you're better off going to London. If there ain't nothin' shakin' in London you can easily get to Paris or Berlin or Munich. It must beat waiting for somebody to die in the back row of the second violins in Philadelphia. It worked for Menuhin.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Dan Koren]

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 11:53:27 PM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 2:57:33 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Indeed, the British elite seems to specialize
> > in ridiculousness.
>
> Well the ridiculousness or presumed but never
> demonstrated antisemitism of the British elite
> doesn't seem to extend to Jewish musicians.

Just as I said earlier, there appears to be some
attraction for Jewish doctors, bankers, and for
musicians. Not much has changed since the
days of Mendelssohn and Mahler.

dk

[Frank Berger]

You don't need Jews to have antisemitism. You need Jews to have antisemitic acts. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was (is?) actively published in Japan where there are not a whole lot of Jews.

AIUI the most prominent Jewish community lives in North London. There used to be communities of "rag trade Jews" - their expression, not mine - in towns and cities like Manchester and Leeds and Bradford, dealing in locally produced textiles, but with the closure of the mills on both sides of the Pennines, there isn't really a rag trade there any more. Yes, in London you'd get sour remarks about pawnbrokers and moneylenders and bankers, but you get that all over the world:

Of course, that IS antisemitism. I never suggested it was worse in England than elsewhere.

> its historic roots lie, I believe in the religious laws about lending money at interest, Jewish and Catholic.

IMO, the historical roots of antisemitism is much older. Oversimplified version. Communities worshipeed works and trees and such. If a guy who worshipeed trees move to a place where they worshipped rocks, people were cool with that. Abraham came along and said there is one God. Not only that, but you are sinning because of your idol worship. They didn't like him for that. Of course, antisemitism can be reinforced by circumstances, like Gentiles resenting they have to borrow from Jews, or central city residents main exposure to Jews being their landlords and shop owners.

> In modern Britain I see quite a few Jewish names in journalism, and in the entertainment industry, ever a way for a poor immigrant boy from the slums to make good, both in the UK and America.

This is zero evidence of the absence of antisemitism.

I imagine it could be hard in the 19th century for a Jewish Brit to get into a gentleman's club, but then the vast majority of Brit goyim wouldn't have got in either. And I'm sure the same difficulties might have arisen in the same kind of clubs in New York, Boston and Richmond VA, or indeed Melbourne, Australia.
>
> I have read that British Jewry is getting more and more orthodox, as more and more young men in the older communities marry non-Jewish girls, but a thriving community of large Haredi families is growing in >Stamford Hill, also in London. This may or may not be taking place in the USA

I am pretty familiar with Stamford Hill, by grandson's wife hails from there. There are plenty of antisemitic incidents there almost on a daily basis it seems.

I'm not sure so many Jews are becoming orthodox. Well, many are, I did. But I'm not sure it accounts for the growth of the orthodox as a share of all Jews. I think the orthodox community is growing because of its low intermarriage and insularity and large families. Non-orthodox Jews are inter-marrying and assimilating themselves out of existence. Many years ago a large Reform congregation in New York City was celebrating its 100th anniversary and wanted to invite descendants of its founding families. There were none who still identified as Jewish. One Rabbi/author I read called the Reform movement a way station out of Judaism.

>
> Outside the short-lived British Union of Fascists, the only antisemitic comments I've read came from a gentleman of letters called T.S. Eliot, and another called Ezra Pound. And where did *they* come from?
>

I suppose you think certain elements of the Left in England are only anti-Zionist and not antisemitic?

> There has certainly never been the degree of antisemitism in the UK to match that to be found long before 1933 in Central Europe or indeed France: there have been no British Dreyfuses. And never hear about Polish antisemitism or White Russian antisemitism for example. But you see, there are thousands of Americans who still identify to a large extent as Polish or Russian. And they vote.
>
> Of course if you and Mr Piano Man have any solid evidence of specifically antisemitic measures taken by the UK elite, I'll be happy to read about them,
>

I think then when you and I think "antisemitism" we think different things. It is not limit to government sanctions against Jews and pogroms.

Of course, there are degrees of evil. If antisemitism in England is less virulent than somewhere else, historically or today, that's good.

[Andrew Clarke]

I don't know why Felix Mendelssohn's father converted to Lutheranism, but Isaac Disraeli was received into the Anglican Church following a dispute with his rabbi. Benjamin himself was received into that church when he was 12 years old. There was at that time a requirement that Members of Parliament should be "good Christians" but that requirement, as it applied to Jewish Britons was removed by an Act of Parliament in 1858. The requirement for students at the University of Oxford to assent to the Thirty Nine Articles was also struck out by Act of Parliament in 1854.

I must say that if the British elite were rabidly antisemitic they had a funny way of showing it.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

The question of when anti-Zionism crosses the border into antisemitism is a vexed one, and much ink has been spilt on this issue by the conservative London press. It's further compounded by the fact that many ultra-orthodox rabbis disagree with the foundation of the Jewish state, or so I believe. I think we can accept that these "Corbynistas" do not reflect the views of the British political elite in any shape or form.

As for displays of antisemitism in Stamford Hill, the area is in the middle of Hackney, an area where poverty and crime and overcrowding are endemic, and have been since the Industrial Revolution. There is also a blue-collar Moslem community, which won't help. I was interested to read that before that time, wealthy members of London's Jewish community built themselves villas there, finally moving out as the mean streets came closer and closer. But at the moment it would not surprise me to learn that there had been violence against Jews there, especially if they were walking the streets of Hackney in long black coats, hats and the traditional ringlets. The ill-educated and unemployed - or unemployable - tend to lack sensitivity to other people's customs I'm afraid. But I'm sure these activities don't reflect the attidude of the British population, or indeed the elite if they still have one ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Frank Berger]

Why did you introduce the word "rabid." Has anyone said the British Elite were (collectively) "rabidly" antisemitic? Are you whitewashing "less than rabid" antisemitism?

[Frank Berger]

I'm going to spill the definitive ink on the subject. In one sense there is a theoretical difference between antisemitism and anti-Zionism. In practice the vast majority of people who are anti-Zionist (in either the sense of being in principle against the existence of a Jewish state or just being exclusively focused on what is perceived as Israel's poor treatment of Palestinians to the exclusion of interest in the bad behavior of other states) are so motivated because they are antisemitic. You hear people say just because I don't think there should be a Jewish state doesn't mean I hate Jews. True, but it denies the age-old association of the Jewish people and religion with the land of Israel, so in that sense it still antisemitism, though perhaps without hatred.

A French Jewish philosopher whose name escapes me points out that anti-Zionism is merely the modern "socially acceptable" way to express underlying antisemitism. The accusation that the Jews killed Christ, or use the blood of Christian children to make matzah, or control the banks, although still in existence here and there, are passe (sorry about the missing accent aigu)

It's further compounded by the fact that many ultra-orthodox rabbis disagree with the foundation of the Jewish state, or so I believe.

The vast majority of the ultra-orthodox participate in Israeli elections. The fact that some segment of the Jewish world is opposed, in principle, to a secular Jewish state is irrelevant.

[Andrew Clarke]

No.

Meanwhile, here is part of an interesting article in the Daily Telegraph (London) about the Charedi community in South Tottenham:

"Most agree that Britain does not have enough homes. Among the most affected areas is south Tottenham, home to a thriving Orthodox Jewish community. It is also an area which provides hope for those of us campaigning for a traditionalist solution to the housing crisis. Where large families, squeezed into Victorian homes, were in need of extra capacity, their innovative solution involved extending terraced homes directly upwards within a strict visual design code.

It is a vital yet undercovered story that may well provide a solution to spiralling rents and development blocks in neighbourhoods across the country. So we at Create Streets are championing it.

While many Londoners opted to move to the suburbs to raise their family amidst the housing shortage, this was simply not a possible solution for some residents in south Tottenham. It was not just that much of the community is close and culturally linked, but also a question of Shabbat. On the sabbath, Haredi Jews may only walk to get about and may not walk more than 2,000 cubits, about one kilometre. This limits them to living within a close radius to synagogues. Finding a similar arrangement elsewhere can be difficult.

Some families responded to the capacity problem by building large, unsightly square dormer extensions, out of keeping with the existing heritage building stock. Others objected to this and suggested a better way, working collaboratively with Haringey planners, local councillors and the neighbourhood to create a strict and predictable visual design guide.

This made it easier to develop an extension, but only if it emulated the original materials and ornament used to build the neighbourhood. Homes that follow the code look as if they have always been three-storey buildings, despite having been subject to significant recent extensions. They continue bays windows upwards, weave in decorative brickwork and use original tiling. Doing it differently is of course still possible, but simply not a possible solution.

The visual design guide has been extremely popular with homeowners. I counted well over 200 uses out of about 1,000 eligible homes. Homeowners have added as many as four bedrooms and hundreds of thousands of pounds of extra value. One local councillor told me that many families reported reduced behavioural challenges now that children could have a bedroom of their own. "

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 4:43:06 PM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Homes that follow the code look as if they
> have always been three-storey buildings,
> despite having been subject to significant
> recent extensions. They continue bays windows
> upwards, weave in decorative brickwork and use
> original tiling.

Ignoring the fact the original structures
may not be able to support the extra
loads created by the weight of the
extensions. One would not be
surprised to see some collapse.

This is an oh so predictable traditional
obsession with saving appearances.
London should be torn down and
rebuilt to 22nd century standards.

dk

[Frank Berger]

On 12/29/2021 10:42 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 4:43:06 PM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Homes that follow the code look as if they
>> have always been three-storey buildings,
>> despite having been subject to significant
>> recent extensions. They continue bays windows
>> upwards, weave in decorative brickwork and use
>> original tiling.
>
> Ignoring the fact the original structures
> may not be able to support the extra
> loads created by the weight of the
> extensions. One would not be
> surprised to see some collapse.
>

I would presume that additions that "follow the code" would not that have problem.

> This is an oh so predictable traditional
> obsession with saving appearances.

Is there anything you don't complain about. Do you actually prefer hideous remodels?

[Andrew Clarke]

They have structural engineers in London, just like everywhere else. And if you had your way and the South Tottenham / Stamford Hill area was 'rebuilt to 22nd century standards', the Charedi would no longer be able to afford to live there. It seems strange to be arguing about traditional appearances in the context of an ultra-traditional religious community, but there we are.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 11:08:43 PM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 2:42:58 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 4:43:06 PM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > Homes that follow the code look as if they
> > > have always been three-storey buildings,
> > > despite having been subject to significant
> > > recent extensions. They continue bays windows
> > > upwards, weave in decorative brickwork and use
> > > original tiling.
> > Ignoring the fact the original structures
> > may not be able to support the extra
> > loads created by the weight of the
> > extensions. One would not be
> > surprised to see some collapse.
> >
> > This is an oh so predictable traditional
> > obsession with saving appearances.
> > London should be torn down and
> > rebuilt to 22nd century standards.
>

> They have structural engineers in London,
> just like everywhere else.

Of course they do, and buildings collapse
everywhere.

> And if you had your way and the South
> Tottenham / Stamford Hill area was
> 'rebuilt to 22nd century standards',
> the Charedi would no longer be able
> to afford to live there. It seems strange
> to be arguing about traditional appearances
> in the context of an ultra-traditional religious
> community, but there we are.

I am no fan of the Haredi or of any other
traditional religious communities. If they
have to relocate to other places that is
perfectly fine as far as a I am concerned.
As long as they don't move anywhere close.

dk

[John Fowler]

> I am no fan of the Haredi or of any other
> traditional religious communities. If they
> have to relocate to other places that is
> perfectly fine as far as a I am concerned.
> As long as they don't move anywhere close.
>
> dk

Move them to a nice camp?

[Frank Berger]

On 12/29/2021 11:27 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 11:08:43 PM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:

>> On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 2:42:58 PM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 4:43:06 PM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Homes that follow the code look as if they
>>>> have always been three-storey buildings,
>>>> despite having been subject to significant
>>>> recent extensions. They continue bays windows
>>>> upwards, weave in decorative brickwork and use
>>>> original tiling.
>>> Ignoring the fact the original structures
>>> may not be able to support the extra
>>> loads created by the weight of the
>>> extensions. One would not be
>>> surprised to see some collapse.
>>>
>>> This is an oh so predictable traditional
>>> obsession with saving appearances.
>>> London should be torn down and
>>> rebuilt to 22nd century standards.
>>

>> They have structural engineers in London,
>> just like everywhere else.
>

> Of course they do, and buildings collapse
> everywhere.
>

>> And if you had your way and the South
>> Tottenham / Stamford Hill area was
>> 'rebuilt to 22nd century standards',
>> the Charedi would no longer be able
>> to afford to live there. It seems strange
>> to be arguing about traditional appearances
>> in the context of an ultra-traditional religious
>> community, but there we are.
>

> I am no fan of the Charedi or of any other

> traditional religious communities. If they
> have to relocate to other places that is
> perfectly fine as far as a I am concerned.
> As long as they don't move anywhere close.
>
> dk

You are becoming nasty. What did the Charedim ever do to you?

[Frank Berger]

Once was enough.

[Frank Berger]

There is no reason Dan has to live near anybody he doesn't want to live near. But his tone seems uncomfortably intolerant to me.

Because my daughter and family are Chassidic, I have a lot more "exposure" to that community than I would otherwise have. There is a lot more diversity of thought and opinion within the Charedi community than might be thought. They do have a lot of kids, though, and if you don't want to live among lots and lots of children, you don't want to live near them. Maybe it's only because of my daughter's family's "membership" in the community, but I have found them to be invariably welcoming, inclusive, pleasant and non-judgemental.

[Dan Koren]

On Thursday, December 30, 2021 at 7:14:01 AM UTC-5, John Fowler wrote:
> > I am no fan of the Haredi or of any other
> > traditional religious communities. If they
> > have to relocate to other places that is
> > perfectly fine as far as a I am concerned.
> > As long as they don't move anywhere close.
>

> Move them to a nice camp?

Wherever they like.

dk

[Dan Koren]

> You are becoming nasty. What
> did the Charedim ever do to you?

They made my life quite difficult
(and other people's too) when I
was a student in Jersulem. They
practically locked us in our dorm
during weekends.

The Hebrew University's student
dorms were on French Hill and on
Mt. Scopus. Public transportation
did not run on weekends. To get
to the city one had to walk through
Mea She'arim, and they prevented
anyone from doing so. The Haredi
community in Israel is extremely
aggressive in trying to return the
entire nation to the 16th century.

dk

[Frank Berger]

Not really. They just want to be in 16th century themselves. They are aggressive in preventing others from destroying their way of life.

Note that they all have cell phones and many work in tech. The black garb they wear is a relatively modern invention. Whatever.

If they literally prevented you from walking through Mea She'rim on Shabbos, I can't defend that. Maybe you could have taken a taxi to avoid provoking them.

[Bob Harper]

On 12/29/21 10:48 PM, Dan Koren wrote:(snip)

>
> I am no fan of the Haredi or of any other
> traditional religious communities. If they
> have to relocate to other places that is
> perfectly fine as far as a I am concerned.
> As long as they don't move anywhere close.
>
> dk

What an ugly thing to say.

Bob Harper

[Bob Harper]

On 12/30/21 4:46 AM, Frank Berger wrote:
(snip)I have found them to be invariably

> welcoming, inclusive, pleasant and non-judgemental.

In other words, quite unlike Dan.

Bob Harper

[Andrew Clarke]

Dan will be relieved to know that families from the Charedi community in South Tottenham/Stamford Hill - one is just to the north of the other - are moving to Canvey Island, a former resort for East Enders in the Thames Estuary, linked by bridges to the deeply unfashionable county of Essex. At least it isn't Coney Island.
IIRR there is an erev in North London somewhere, granted by the local council. I don't think they would be allowed to block traffic, however.
Frank's comment about many of them working in tech raises an important issue, namely that traditionally Cheradim do not accept secular education and the men do not go to work, devoting themselves to studying the Torah. This can lead to friction, as many people, goy or Jewish, including people in Israel itself, get upset at the idea that they are paying taxes to support large families where the father won't get a job, as they see it. I believe there are/were moves in Israel to limit the amount of social security the Charedim receive. Interestingly, there are situations where the mother goes to work and the father stays at home and looks after the family's spiritual needs: I read in a New York Jewish paper of one family where the mother is a company CEO and is perfectly happy for her husband to stay at home and fulfil his religious duties. Perhaps the attitude to work is changing? I don't know that the Torah has much to say about microchips (tablets of stone don't count) or programming languages.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Frank Berger]

Having an eruv (a partially symbolic physical demarcation of an area within which one is allowed to "carry" on the Sabbath, which is not permitted without it) and shutting down traffic have nothing to do with each other. Perhaps you know that, but I wanted to make it clear.

In several Jerusalem neighborhoods overwhelmingly populated by the ultra-orthodox, the streets are actually closed by a gates on the Sabbath and major holidays. Emergency vehicles are permitted, of course. I do not know the legal mechanism by which this street closure is permitted. In the U.S. we have street closures for block parties and parades. I haven't thought about if the situations are related at all. I suppose if was not an orthodox Jew and the shortest way from A to B was through one of these neighborhoods, I might be annoyed. I remember being in Brooklyn a few years ago and having to wait for streets to open after a very long parade. I WAS annoyed.

> Frank's comment about many of them working in tech raises an important issue, namely that traditionally Cheradim do not accept secular education

I think a more accurate statement would be that they object to having to teach state-mandated subjects that conflict with their values.

>and the men do not go to work, devoting themselves to studying the Torah.

This is an exaggeration. Torah observant Jews have always worked. In the historical sources Rabbis disagreed about how much time is appropriate to devote to work. Historically, communities (or fathers in law) supported promising scholars. It is true that some great scholars may have worked (in the sense of making a living outside the rabbinate) little or not at all. The vast majority of men work to support their families. Government support for mediocre scholars (a real source of conflict in Israel) is a new thing. Rambam (Moses Maimonedes), one of our greatest rabbis, schoars, and biblical commentators or lived over 1000 years ago, essentially called men who didn't work but studied all the time "bums."

This can lead to friction, as many people, goy or Jewish, including people in Israel itself, get upset at the idea that they are paying taxes to support large families where the father won't get a job, as they see it.

True, but when people resent their taxes going to support men who don't work, do they consider that the orthodox community as a whole, with its yeshivas, synagogues, consumers and, yes, workers contribute mightily to the Israeli economy. The amount of money coming from outside of Israel to support that community is immense.

> I believe there are/were moves in Israel to limit the amount of social security the Charedim receive.

Payments go up and down depending on the government coalition in power. When payments are cut, the number of men working goes up. Duh.


?Interestingly, there are situations where the mother goes to work and the father stays at home and looks after the family's spiritual needs:

Not unusual at all. In my daughter's neighborhood (one of the most uniformly ultra-orthodox) you see women (and men) coming and going with their briefcases and computers every day. It is problematic for unrelated men and women to work closely together, so there is an issue of finding an appropriate job situation.

I read in a New York Jewish paper of one family where the mother is a company CEO and is perfectly happy for her husband to stay at home and fulfil his religious duties. Perhaps the attitude to work is changing?

This phenomenon is not new at all. The situation of large numbers of Jewish men not working who are not great scholars (exaggerated though I believe it is) is a modern response to the social welfare net.

In the Charedi world, the typical situation is this. Men study through high school age and beyond. When they marry, the ideal is for them to continue to study full time for several years and then find work. How they split their time thereafter between study and work will vary depending on the financial and intellectual situation and on the man's inclination. Everybody studies (they say "learns), but not everybody studies a lot, never mind all the time. There is a saying (don't know the source, as I am not a scholar) that when a man dies he is asked "Did you set aside time to study." Note, not did you study full time or even a lot, but did you have a regular time.

I don't know that the Torah has much to say about microchips (tablets of stone don't count) or programming languages.

My Hassidic grandson just completed on-line training in crypto something or other. He has several job offers in hand.

>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra