Once admired, now ignored?

[MIFrost]

Just listening to my recording of Beethoven's Ninth with Barenboim conducting the Berliner Staatskapelle. This set (of the complete symphonies) was given a rave review by nearly all the usual sources when it came out. It was the cat's meow, the bee's knees. I find it too tepid and mellow for my taste, personally. But regardless, it's never mentioned when people list great Beethoven recordings. Once it was on Mt. Rushmore, next it's forgotten.

MIFrost

[Gerard]

"MIFrost" wrote in message
news:4a02814d-021b-4752...@googlegroups.com...

==================

That's the fate of a lot of recordings, specially when every conductor makes
one or more recordings of certain compositions.
Many are splendid, very few are unforgettable.

[wkasimer]

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 6:12:03 AM UTC-5, MIFrost wrote:

> Just listening to my recording of Beethoven's Ninth with Barenboim conducting the Berliner Staatskapelle. [snip] But regardless, it's never mentioned when people list great Beethoven recordings <

I bought it when it was first issued, and still mention it any time someone asks for a non-HIP set. At its current price (I think that it's $15 on Amazon Marketplace), it's a steal.

[MIFrost]

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 6:52:55 AM UTC-5, Gerard wrote:
>
> That's the fate of a lot of recordings, specially when every conductor makes
> one or more recordings of certain compositions.
> Many are splendid, very few are unforgettable.

Interesting article in the latest issue of BBC Music magazine. "Must-have recordings" of each Beethoven symphony:
1- Chailly/Leipzig Gewandhaus
2- Skrowaczewski/Saarbruken Radio Symphony
3- Kempe/Munchner Phil
4- Joshua Bell/ASMF
5- Kleiber/VPO
6- Norrington/London Classical Players
7- Chailly/Leipzig Gewandhaus
8- Abbado/VPO
9- Vanska/Minnesota

MIFrost

[Lionel Tacchini]

They are most likely all worth hearing, as well as a good few others
made in the last 20 years. There is no such thing as a "must-have"
recording, just like there are no "great", "greatest" or "greatestest"
recordings. All these terms speak only for the gullibility or desire to
worship of those who take them seriously.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 10.11.2015 12:11, MIFrost wrote:
> But regardless, it's never mentioned when people list great Beethoven
> recordings.

Are these people doing anything else but rehashing the old sacred cows
they grew up with?
--
Lionel Tacchini

[Marc P.]

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 3:12:03 AM UTC-8, MIFrost wrote:
> Just listening to my recording of Beethoven's Ninth with Barenboim conducting the Berliner Staatskapelle. This set (of the complete symphonies) was given a rave review by nearly all the usual sources when it came out. It was the cat's meow, the bee's knees. I find it too tepid and mellow for my taste, personally. But regardless, it's never mentioned when people list great Beethoven recordings. Once it was on Mt. Rushmore, next it's forgotten.
>
> MIFrost

I was an early fan of this set, great sound and a cool clear plastic case. The performances didn't wear well over time for me and I traded it. Harnoncourt's is another LvB cycle that I lost interest in, though I'm glad to have his 6 & 8 in the big Teldec box, those are probably my two favorites from his set.

Marc

[MIFrost]

I've had the same experience as you with both the Barenboim set and the Harnoncourt. Over time they didn't wear well.

MIFrost

[Gerard]

"MIFrost" wrote in message
news:1ad0ada0-530c-4d40...@googlegroups.com...

====================

I've seen that - but didn't buy the magazine (I DID buy the previous one,
with Ida Haendel on the CD, playing Britten and Brahms - but I do'n care for
the magazine itself).

It's a curious list.
Home come that there is only ONE "must-have recording" for each symphony?
(And I see Chailly's name twice, but not for symphony #8!)

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

A curiously incoherent list. Surely those with time for Kempe's patient unfolding of the Eroica (marvellous in its way) would want more of the same, while most of the other choices are brisk, lean and HIP or HIP-influenced. And does C Kleiber's 5th always have to turn up in every list like a bad penny (oh, I know it's much better than a bad penny but some other conductors have made good recordings of it...)

[wkasimer]

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 3:39:03 PM UTC-5, chriskh...@gmail.com wrote:

> And does C Kleiber's 5th always have to turn up in every list

Heh, heh. When I saw this list, I thought that it referred to *Erich* Kleiber's recording of the 5th. I guess I should have remembered that this recording is with the Concertgebouw, not the VPO.

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

A couple of decades ago I had a somewhat heated exchange of opinion with a lady from the best Milanese high society who told me, as a sort of personal discovery she herself had made, that Kleiber's father had also been a conductor, "but not an important one". Indignantly, I told her that Erich Kleiber was one of the greatest conductors of his age, and many people feel his records of Beethoven 5, Figaro and Rosenkavalier are the finest ever made. You might think the lady would have shown some interest. She just snapped, "If that was true I would have known it".

Her spirit lives on at BBC Music, evidently.

[Greg]

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 6:12:03 AM UTC-5, MIFrost wrote:

> Just listening to my recording of Beethoven's Ninth with Barenboim conducting the Berliner Staatskapelle. This set (of the complete symphonies) was given a rave review by nearly all the usual sources when it came out. It was the cat's meow, the bee's knees. I find it too tepid and mellow for my taste, personally. But regardless, it's never mentioned when people list great Beethoven recordings. Once it was on Mt. Rushmore, next it's forgotten.
>
> MIFrost

I'd say Barenboim's is one of the very best "traditional" studio cycles available. There have been a lot of HIP-inspired cycles since the 80's that are more in fashion, but Barenboim's is fully competitive with all the Karajans, Walters, Szells, Bernsteins, etc... that many people still favor. I think if it had been released in 1965 it would be universally known and praised. For what it's worth, at least a couple of Barenboim's performances (2,6) are among my personal favorites.

Greg

[richard...@gmail.com]

Interesting variety in this list. For me the Beethoven 2nd to get is Beecham RPO EMI. Stereo, divided violins (HIP layout in fact) and exciting. The LP was more so than the CD for reasons I don't understand- somebody cleaning things up I suppose. In this work Beecham is more lively than Toscanini. I shall have to find Skrowaczewski.

[Greg]

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 7:44:57 AM UTC-5, MIFrost wrote:

>

> Interesting article in the latest issue of BBC Music magazine. "Must-have recordings" of each Beethoven symphony:
> 1- Chailly/Leipzig Gewandhaus
> 2- Skrowaczewski/Saarbruken Radio Symphony
> 3- Kempe/Munchner Phil
> 4- Joshua Bell/ASMF
> 5- Kleiber/VPO
> 6- Norrington/London Classical Players
> 7- Chailly/Leipzig Gewandhaus
> 8- Abbado/VPO
> 9- Vanska/Minnesota
>
> MIFrost

An oddly disjointed list, but I suppose everyone has their quirks of taste. (I'm going to generously assume the author is including Vanska's 9th ironically to see if anyone is paying attention...)

Does this post mean we should go old-school RMCR and list one favorite for each symphony?!? If we do, will 50+ people chime in like in the days of yore? Will Simon and Hurwitz and Matty return and enthusiastically give their input? Eh, probably not.

What the hell, I'm bored. One per conductor to keep it interesting, stereo only:

1 - Chailly
2 - Barenboim
3 - Antonini
4 - Gielen/Hanssler
5 - Szell/VPO/Orfeo
6 - Norrington/Hanssler
7 - de Vriend
8 - Jarvi
9 - Tennstedt/LPO/Memories

Anyone else care to take the Beethoven challenge?

Greg

[John Thomas]

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 3:12:03 AM UTC-8, MIFrost wrote:

> Just listening to my recording of Beethoven's Ninth with Barenboim conducting the Berliner Staatskapelle. This set (of the complete symphonies) was given a rave review by nearly all the usual sources when it came out. It was the cat's meow, the bee's knees. I find it too tepid and mellow for my taste, personally. But regardless, it's never mentioned when people list great Beethoven recordings. Once it was on Mt. Rushmore, next it's forgotten.
>
> MIFrost

You could say that about almost every LvB cycle that's ever been released. Enthusiastic reviews, great sales for awhile, and finally it winds up neglected on page 15 of Amazon's listing of LvB cycles in print.

A more interesting question: What highly praised Beethoven cycle still retains the reputation it had when first in print? The Furtwangler wartime Beethoven performances? The Toscanini 1939 cycle? The Karajan 1963 recordings? Others?

[Russ (not Martha)]

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 6:44:57 AM UTC-6, MIFrost wrote:
> Interesting article in the latest issue of BBC Music magazine. "Must-have recordings" of each Beethoven symphony:
> 1- Chailly/Leipzig Gewandhaus
> 2- Skrowaczewski/Saarbruken Radio Symphony
> 3- Kempe/Munchner Phil
> 4- Joshua Bell/ASMF
> 5- Kleiber/VPO
> 6- Norrington/London Classical Players
> 7- Chailly/Leipzig Gewandhaus
> 8- Abbado/VPO
> 9- Vanska/Minnesota
>

Come on, Norrington making his orchestra scrape their way thru the 'Pastorale?' I wouldn't have anything by him in my house.

Russ (not Martha)
> MIFrost

[Herman]

Blomstedt/Dresden seems to fare pretty well, too.

[Marc P.]

I'm an avid fan of much of Blomstedt's work, but his Beethoven cycle struck me as generic.

Marc

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

Weingartner?

[Johannes Roehl]

Am Dienstag, 10. November 2015 12:12:03 UTC+1 schrieb MIFrost:
> Just listening to my recording of Beethoven's Ninth with Barenboim conducting the Berliner Staatskapelle. This set (of the complete symphonies) was given a rave review by nearly all the usual sources when it came out. It was the cat's meow, the bee's knees. I find it too tepid and mellow for my taste, personally. But regardless, it's never mentioned when people list great Beethoven recordings. Once it was on Mt. Rushmore, next it's forgotten.
>

The Barenboim was fairly special when it came out; in some respects it still is. The sound was quite spectacularly good and it also put a not all that well known orchestra on the map. More importantly, these were and still are, rather different interpretations that depart from the now dominant fashion to use fast tempi and some HIP mannerisms with large modern orchestras (or modern chamber orchestras).

Sure, there is also Thielemann who is again different. But Barenboim's cycle was earlier (and many think he was far more successful in what he was doing than Thielemann).

[Terry]

Easy!

1. Markevitch/Lamoureux
2. Sawallisch/Concertgebouw
3. Karajan/BPO (the second DGG version - not the 1963)
4. Klemperer/Philharmonia
5. Maazel/BPO
6. Goodman/Hanover Band
7. Kleiber/VPO
8. Cluytens/BPO
9. Haitink/Concertgebouw

[Marc P.]

On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 12:26:15 AM UTC-8, Johannes Roehl wrote:
> Am Dienstag, 10. November 2015 12:12:03 UTC+1 schrieb MIFrost:
> > Just listening to my recording of Beethoven's Ninth with Barenboim conducting the Berliner Staatskapelle. This set (of the complete symphonies) was given a rave review by nearly all the usual sources when it came out. It was the cat's meow, the bee's knees. I find it too tepid and mellow for my taste, personally. But regardless, it's never mentioned when people list great Beethoven recordings. Once it was on Mt. Rushmore, next it's forgotten.
> >
>
> The Barenboim was fairly special when it came out; in some respects it still is. The sound was quite spectacularly good and it also put a not all that well known orchestra on the map. More importantly, these were and still are, rather different interpretations that depart from the now dominant fashion to use fast tempi and some HIP mannerisms with large modern orchestras (or modern chamber orchestras).

I like Barenboim's Schumann symphony cycle, also with the Staatskapelle, very much. Conversely to the Beethoven, it does employ some HIP-ish style.

Marc

[Mark Zimmer]

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 6:44:57 AM UTC-6, MIFrost wrote:

What a bizarre list, to say the least. The obligatory Kleiber then a bunch of pedestrian performances.

[Steve Emerson]

Yes -- I have no idea what its reputation is, but I find it dull as dishwater.

SE.

[Gerard]

"Steve Emerson" wrote in message
news:1467f8cb-9168-4d8f...@googlegroups.com...

============

It's beautiful dishwater, and it cleans better than Karajan's mud.

[Al Eisner]

I guess no Erich on the list (despite sensational 3 and 6, at least)
because they are only thinking sterero. (That way they don't have
to include Toscanini or choose among multiple Furtwängler's, etc.)
Of course, any such list with just a single recording is bascially
silly, unless put forward as "startup recommendations for newbies".
--
Al Eisner

[wkasimer]

On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 10:30:05 PM UTC-5, John Thomas wrote:

> A more interesting question: What highly praised Beethoven cycle still retains the reputation it had when first in print? The Furtwangler wartime Beethoven performances? The Toscanini 1939 cycle? The Karajan 1963 recordings? Others? <

Bruggen's first set on Philips.

[Johannes Roehl]

When Harnoncourts came out in 1991/92, it was quite spectacularly different. There had been two or three cycles on old instruments, his was the first of a HIP performer on mostly modern instruments with the virtuoso chamber orchestra of Europe in vivid live recordings and it was very different from Norrington and Hogwood. Very fresh, spontaneous and original. Now we probably have a dozen or so of "hybrid" cycles and the "pure HIPster" are usually more flexible and interesting than Hogwood in the 1980s.
I was never too fond of Harnoncourts 5th, 6th and 9th but I think 1-4 and 7+8 still hold up very well.
Of course, there are so many Beethoven recordings that it would be a full time job to listen and compare to all of them. So maybe if one does not get another recording of that stuff every year and instead revisits the ones one already has there might be re-discoveries of great moments.

[Kerrison]

I'm always amazed in these discussions of the Beethoven symphonies that Rene Leibowitz's name so seldom comes up. Yet his Readers Digest set was not only superbly played and recorded, the performances were as vital as could be wished. Click this link and hear for yourselves, a fiery Beethoven 5th that is indicative of the set as a whole ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOM7W8jpFw

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 12.11.2015 10:05, Kerrison wrote:
> I'm always amazed in these discussions of the Beethoven symphonies
> that Rene Leibowitz's name so seldom comes up.

I am always amazed of the regularity with which, in any such discussion,
a couple of people come up wondering why their special, chosen version
is not mentioned. It is usually really special and often well chosen,
but just look at the number of candidates and you'll end up wondering
why they wonder in the first place.

There are dozens of good Beethoven cycles.
Plenty of people posting here have their imprint version and the
occasional one that shocked them at some point. I have come to a point
where the only one that matters to me is the next one I'll discover, if
there is one at all because I have heard that music too much and I'll
rather spend time with something new but I know Beethoven will come
around again sometime.

So in the end, a funny list of disparate recordings worth listening to
like the one from the BBC, regardless of its unbearably silly
"must-have" label, is better than yet another idiotic attempt at
declaring "reference", "great" or sometime even "definitive" recordings.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Gerard]

"Johannes Roehl" wrote in message
news:b5bf3e34-7d8b-4eea...@googlegroups.com...

Of course, there are so many Beethoven recordings that it would be a full
time job to listen and compare to all of them. So maybe if one does not get
another recording of that stuff every year and instead revisits the ones one
already has there might be re-discoveries of great moments.

=================

That's an important part of the "problem".
With so many recordings (new and reissued) there's hardly any time to
revisit the old ones.
So they get "ignored" automatically. Because ALL conductors want to make
recordings of ALL those symphonies. Again and again.

That's why (for example) the recording of symphony #3 by Savall is not
ignored at all.

[Herman]

On Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 11:23:37 AM UTC+1, Lionel Tacchini wrote:

>
> There are dozens of good Beethoven cycles.
> Plenty of people posting here have their imprint version and the
> occasional one that shocked them at some point.

RMCR is largely Imprint City. Added to this a large number of the remaining posters (try compare today's RMCR to the nineties) are of a pretty advanced age and it's not hard to see why Szell, Reiner and his contemporaries are invariably mentioned a lot in these topics. (And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Szell or Reiner.)

Occassionaly there are these "Japanese soldier emerging from the jungle twenty years after" moments, such as when in another Beethoven symphony topic when a long-time poster commented he hadn't gotten around yet to post 1981 recordings.

[Bob Harper]

Floating around out there on the internet is a Beethoven 5th with
Harnoncourt and the COE that is spectacular. Available on Symphonyshare.

Bob Harper

[Mark Zimmer]

On Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 3:05:18 AM UTC-6, Kerrison wrote:
> I'm always amazed in these discussions of the Beethoven symphonies that Rene Leibowitz's name so seldom comes up. Yet his Readers Digest set was not only superbly played and recorded, the performances were as vital as could be wished. Click this link and hear for yourselves, a fiery Beethoven 5th that is indicative of the set as a whole ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOM7W8jpFw

The Leibovitz set is remarkably good, both as a performance and in sound quality, and he takes most of the repeats. It's now my go-to recommendation for anyone looking for a big band Beethoven cycle, and has the side benefit of being dirt cheap in digital form. I've by no means listened to all of the LvB cycles out there, but I have listened to quite a few, and Hogwood is the only conductor I've found who takes every single repeat Beethoven indicates in every symphony in the cycle. Zinman misses only one or two, Bernstein also takes almost all of them, but Karajan and Furtwängler take shockingly few.

[Johannes Roehl]

Am Donnerstag, 12. November 2015 10:05:18 UTC+1 schrieb Kerrison:
> I'm always amazed in these discussions of the Beethoven symphonies that Rene Leibowitz's name so seldom comes up. Yet his Readers Digest set was not only superbly played and recorded, the performances were as vital as could be wished. Click this link and hear for yourselves, a fiery Beethoven 5th that is indicative of the set as a whole ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOM7W8jpFw

The Leibowitz was not always easily available. And while I do not want to deny its merits (it was spectacular in its day with very good sound and adherence (more or less) to Beethoven's tempo markings) this is actually a case where I can understand that it is not all that famous anymore. Because in the last 15-20 everyone and his cousin has been conducting Beethoven in a similar straightforward and transparent style with very fast tempi. And often in better sound, as great as Wilkinson's was for early 60s.

[Ed Presson]

"Mark Zimmer" wrote in message
news:5a57d029-a9a6-4db9...@googlegroups.com...

I concur with the recommendation for the Leibowitz set. It's one of my
favorites for big band Beethoven.
Ed Presson

[Dana John Hill]

On 11/10/2015 6:11 AM, MIFrost wrote:
> Just listening to my recording of Beethoven's Ninth with Barenboim
> conducting the Berliner Staatskapelle. This set (of the complete
> symphonies) was given a rave review by nearly all the usual sources
> when it came out. It was the cat's meow, the bee's knees. I find it
> too tepid and mellow for my taste, personally. But regardless, it's
> never mentioned when people list great Beethoven recordings. Once it
> was on Mt. Rushmore, next it's forgotten.
>
> MIFrost
>

I may have missed seeing it posted elsewhere in this thread, but if I
recall, there was a good deal of enthusiasm for Zinman's Zurich set a
few years back.

Dana

[John Thomas]

On Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:36:26 PM UTC-8, Dana John Hill wrote

>
> I may have missed seeing it posted elsewhere in this thread, but if I
> recall, there was a good deal of enthusiasm for Zinman's Zurich set a
> few years back.
>
> Dana

As I wrote above, there's almost always enthusiasm around the latest LvB cycle when it's released. The question is: what's the reputation of this set now? Since it's cheap and you can get through it quickly, it's popular with a certain class of Amazon reviewers, but I sold off mine after a single listen. (I did keep and still listen to the Tetzlaff LvB concerto in the same series.) The current reissue occasioned two reviews on Amazon: 5 stars ("better than Karajan") and two stars, a Bernard Michael O'Hanlon extended rant.

I thought Barenboim's set was "good," but who needs "good" when great sets are still in print. Fürtwangler, Klemperer, Karajan, Toscanini, Scherchen: not always without problems, but still the gold standard.

[Greg]

On Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 11:52:20 AM UTC-5, Johannes Roehl wrote:

> The Leibowitz was not always easily available. And while I do not want to deny its merits (it was spectacular in its day with very good sound and adherence (more or less) to Beethoven's tempo markings) this is actually a case where I can understand that it is not all that famous anymore. Because in the last 15-20 everyone and his cousin has been conducting Beethoven in a similar straightforward and >transparent style with very fast tempi. And often in better sound, as great as Wilkinson's was for early >60s.

Agreed - I don't hear anything in the Leibowitz set that someone else doesn't do better. I think Leibowitz has been repeatedly "out-Leibowitzed", so to speak, in the last 20 years or so, if one is only willing to listen with an open mind. To bring this back around to the original post regarding Barenboim, I think that set is actually much more valuable than the Leibowitz set currently, because Barenboim is better played and much better recorded than the vast majority of the older sets done in a similar, traditional style. There are a lot of newer sets done roughly in the "Leibowitz style" that are better played and just as well (if not better) recorded.

Greg

[Bob Harper]

On 11/12/15 3:18 PM, John Thomas wrote:
> On Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:36:26 PM UTC-8, Dana John Hill
> wrote
>>
>> I may have missed seeing it posted elsewhere in this thread, but if
>> I recall, there was a good deal of enthusiasm for Zinman's Zurich
>> set a few years back.
>>
>> Dana
>
> As I wrote above, there's almost always enthusiasm around the latest
> LvB cycle when it's released. The question is: what's the reputation
> of this set now? Since it's cheap and you can get through it
> quickly, it's popular with a certain class of Amazon reviewers, but I
> sold off mine after a single listen. (I did keep and still listen to
> the Tetzlaff LvB concerto in the same series.)

IMO the Concertos are much better than the Symphonies. They're what I've
kept.

Bob Harper

[Marc P.]

This last point is a really good one. I've considerably slowed down the new CD buying and spending more time "shopping" in my existing collection. This hobby consists of three parts I think: (1) hunting/gathering; (2) curating; and (3) actually listening. I'm trying to spend more time on (3). I was done with Beethoven symphonies but on my last Tokyo trip came home with Keilberth's and Markevitch's incomplete sets at Tower Records, oh well.

Marc

[Marc P.]

I recently got Zinman's cycle as part of the "Great Symphonies" big box ($44 new from an Amazon seller!) and except for the 9th which I haven't heard yet, love it. Zinman "out-Harnoncourts Harnoncourt" so to speak, the combination of tempos, clarity, and recording quality are immensely appealing.

Marc

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 13.11.2015 05:02, Marc P. wrote:
> I recently got Zinman's cycle as part of the "Great Symphonies" big
> box ($44 new from an Amazon seller!) and except for the 9th which I
> haven't heard yet, love it. Zinman "out-Harnoncourts Harnoncourt" so
> to speak, the combination of tempos, clarity, and recording quality
> are immensely appealing.

That's right. The set got buried in praise in Germany when it came out
and I was very sceptical about it, ignored it for years. Typical hype
movement with all the critics jumping on the bandwagon. When I first got
to hear some of it I was not immediately impressed but it grew on me.
There was something exhilarating about it, it was just becoming more
pleasurable each time.
I had loved Harnoncourt in the 90s, this was better, addictive. It felt
like Kleiber or Leibowitz.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 13.11.2015 00:18, John Thomas wrote:
> As I wrote above, there's almost always enthusiasm around the latest
> LvB cycle when it's released. The question is: what's the reputation
> of this set now?

I don't care for reputations, this is the concern of sheep, but I'm just
playing Zinman's 2nd symphony now and it feels so good I don't want to
stop it. This is the kind of performance which ought to convince anyone
those crazy tempi were really meant that way. It has not "aged" or
become the norm. Playing fast and light might have to some extent, yet
this is doing it in the most natural, enthusiastic, gripping way.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[Gerard]

"Bob Harper" wrote in message news:AKb1y.81000$lL.1...@fx28.iad...

==============

FWIW those concertos (the violin concerto included) have been reissued on
Brilliant Classics.

[Terry]

Savall's #3 is not ignored mainly because, tantalisingly, it's not readily available except at lunatic prices.

[Gerard]

"Terry" wrote in message
news:6465e8c0-49a0-4f9e...@googlegroups.com...

==================

As mp3 download:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Sinfonia-Nr-3-Eroica/dp/B002JJSBHO/

Not ignored.
Maybe available again soon (a lot of those older recordings by Savall get
reissued on SACD).

[Kerrison]

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 3:42:37 PM UTC, Gerard wrote:
> "Terry" wrote in message

>
>
> On Thursday, 12 November 2015 21:29:36 UTC+11, Gerard wrote:
> > "Johannes Roehl" wrote in message
> >
> >

> > Of course, there are so many Beethoven recordings that it would be a full
> > time job to listen and compare to all of them. So maybe if one does not
> > get
> > another recording of that stuff every year and instead revisits the ones
> > one
> > already has there might be re-discoveries of great moments.
> >
> > =================
> >
> > That's an important part of the "problem".
> > With so many recordings (new and reissued) there's hardly any time to
> > revisit the old ones.
> > So they get "ignored" automatically. Because ALL conductors want to make
> > recordings of ALL those symphonies. Again and again.
> >
> > That's why (for example) the recording of symphony #3 by Savall is not
> > ignored at all.
>
> Savall's #3 is not ignored mainly because, tantalisingly, it's not readily
> available except at lunatic prices.
>
> ==================
>
> As mp3 download:
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Sinfonia-Nr-3-Eroica/dp/B002JJSBHO/
>
> Not ignored.
> Maybe available again soon (a lot of those older recordings by Savall get
> reissued on SACD).

You may as well listen to it on You Tube, complete and for free ... Talk about rushed off its feet! ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E0_Fvp7AFw

[MIFrost]

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 4:32:24 PM UTC-5, Gerald Martin wrote:
> There now seems to be critical amnesia regarding Solti's analog Beethoven symphony cycle. I remember when the individual recordings were greeted with near adulation in the early 1970s. Now they aren't even mentioned so they can dismissed. The digital remakes are likewise ignored.

I think times -- and tastes -- have changed. Reiner and Toscanini were also once regarded as benchmarks but no longer. And this is as it should be. Younger listeners, and even many older ones, prefer conductors and orchestras they have heard (live or otherwise) and that are performing today.

MIFrost

[John Thomas]

On Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 6:17:09 PM UTC-8, Bob Harper wrote:
>
> IMO the Concertos are much better than the Symphonies. They're what I've
> kept.
>
> Bob Harper

I agree about the concertos. I sold off the piano concertos because I have many versions already and very little space left to store CD's. But the violin concerto was so beautifully played I had to keep it.

[John Thomas]

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 1:53:02 AM UTC-8, Lionel Tacchini wrote

>
> I don't care for reputations, this is the concern of sheep, but I'm just
> playing Zinman's 2nd symphony now and it feels so good I don't want to
> stop it. This is the kind of performance which ought to convince anyone
> those crazy tempi were really meant that way. It has not "aged" or
> become the norm. Playing fast and light might have to some extent, yet
> this is doing it in the most natural, enthusiastic, gripping way.
> --
> Lionel Tacchini

À chacun son goût.

[Lionel Tacchini]

That's not the reason, far from it. This is actually thought the wrong
way around. Of course tastes change but that doesn't explain why people
will still buy Toscanini and Furtwängler. People take what's on offer
and the offer is what has chances of selling, so you mostly get the safe
stuff (the sacred cows) and the new stuff people *talk about*.

This is the main offer. People do not buy or discuss what they like,
this is not the business of selling the song that plays on the radio,
they buy or discuss what others talk about. They'll go to Paavo Järvi's
or Thielemann's Beethoven because someone has written a review of the
latest concert or of the latest CD's they made. They'll buy Rattle's
Sibelius because it is Sibelius anniversary year and Sir Simon has
brought the Berlin Philharmonic to London to play them. That's the talk,
the curiosity, not this other cycle made 15 or 30 years ago by someone else.

Solti is in the archives now, together with the litany of conductors who
have made one or more Beethoven cycles without ever becoming sacred
cows. He's there with Jochum and Weingarner, with Abbado (watch out for
the Bigbox 10 years after his death) and Schuricht, they were all good
but they're not worshipped.

--
Lionel Tacchini

[Ed Presson]

"John Thomas" wrote in message
news:af20f731-48df-479b...@googlegroups.com...

Indeed. I was, at first, quite pleased with Zinman's recordings of the
Beethoven symphonies; but no longer. For me, the pleasure abated.

Ed Presson

[jrsnfld]

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 7:34:39 PM UTC-8, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
>
> Solti is in the archives now, together with the litany of conductors who
> have made one or more Beethoven cycles without ever becoming sacred
> cows. He's there with Jochum and Weingarner, with Abbado (watch out for
> the Bigbox 10 years after his death) and Schuricht, they were all good
> but they're not worshipped.

Interesting. At this point I don't really "worship" cycles, but of the cycles I once worshipped, Jochum (Philips), Abbado/BP live, Solti (analog), and Schuricht are among that remain special favorites.

--Jeff

[Raymond Hall]

On Wednesday, 11 November 2015 14:30:05 UTC+11, John Thomas wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 at 3:12:03 AM UTC-8, MIFrost wrote:
> > Just listening to my recording of Beethoven's Ninth with Barenboim conducting the Berliner Staatskapelle. This set (of the complete symphonies) was given a rave review by nearly all the usual sources when it came out. It was the cat's meow, the bee's knees. I find it too tepid and mellow for my taste, personally. But regardless, it's never mentioned when people list great Beethoven recordings. Once it was on Mt. Rushmore, next it's forgotten.
> >
> > MIFrost
>

> You could say that about almost every LvB cycle that's ever been released. Enthusiastic reviews, great sales for awhile, and finally it winds up neglected on page 15 of Amazon's listing of LvB cycles in print.
>
> A more interesting question: What highly praised Beethoven cycle still retains the reputation it had when first in print? The Furtwangler wartime Beethoven performances? The Toscanini 1939 cycle? The Karajan 1963 recordings? Others?

Cluytens/BPO has always had its admirers.In fact I have the set, arrived several months ago, but I haven't played any of it yet. The fate of many discs awaiting playing in an age where many CDs and sets are very inexpensive.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Herman]

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 4:42:33 AM UTC+1, Ed Presson wrote:

>
> Indeed. I was, at first, quite pleased with Zinman's recordings of the
> Beethoven symphonies; but no longer. For me, the pleasure abated.
>
> Ed Presson

And that's how it should be. Times change, you change, you start liking another sound or tempo.

There's no reason whatsoever to keep on adulating the recording you happened to like so much when you were young.

I sure don't.

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

Il giorno venerdì 13 novembre 2015 22:32:24 UTC+1, Gerald Martin ha scritto:
> There now seems to be critical amnesia regarding Solti's analog Beethoven symphony cycle. I remember when the individual recordings were greeted with near adulation in the early 1970s.

Only by Edward Greenfield, at least as far as the UK was concerned. EMG Monthly Letter trashed them

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 11:49:31 AM UTC-10, MIFrost wrote:
> On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 4:32:24 PM UTC-5, Gerald Martin wrote:
> > There now seems to be critical amnesia regarding Solti's analog Beethoven symphony cycle. I remember when the individual recordings were greeted with near adulation in the early 1970s. Now they aren't even mentioned so they can dismissed. The digital remakes are likewise ignored.
>

> I think times -- and tastes -- have changed. Reiner and Toscanini were also once regarded as benchmarks but no longer...

I thought that Reiner never recorded a Beethoven cycle.

[gggg...@gmail.com]

> This last point is a really good one. I've considerably slowed down the new CD buying and spending more time "shopping" in my existing collection. This hobby consists of three parts I think: (1) hunting/gathering; (2) curating; and (3) actually listening. I'm trying to spend more time on (3)...

My aesthetic credo:

- Rather than become addicted to the thrill of discovery, why not choose to appreciate and cultivate the pleasure of REdiscovery.

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 11:49:31 AM UTC-10, MIFrost wrote:

> On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 4:32:24 PM UTC-5, Gerald Martin wrote:
> > There now seems to be critical amnesia regarding Solti's analog Beethoven symphony cycle. I remember when the individual recordings were greeted with near adulation in the early 1970s. Now they aren't even mentioned so they can dismissed. The digital remakes are likewise ignored.
>

> I think times -- and tastes -- have changed. Reiner and Toscanini were also once regarded as benchmarks but no longer. And this is as it should be...

According to the following:

- Beecham and Walter and Reiner will age; we will need new interpretations.

https://books.google.com/books?id=2Jz_AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA181&dq=%22Beecham+and+Walter+and+Reiner+will+age;+we+will+need+new+interpretations.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMIrJaAx9mQyQIVAt9jCh0c7gi-#v=onepage&q=%22Beecham%20and%20Walter%20and%20Reiner%20will%20age%3B%20we%20will%20need%20new%20interpretations.%22&f=false

[Edward A. Cowan]

FWIW, last evening I listened to Leibowitz's LVB one (Chesky), after reading some postings (not necessarily here) that disparaged his performances. The performance impressed me as fleet but not rushed, with clear recording balances and considerable dynamic range. Also heard: LVB Pf. con. no.1 (Solomon on Testament) and Haydn's Sym. no. 88 (Jochum/BPO). This was a most delightful sequence of musical works for one evening. --E.A.C.


On Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 3:05:18 AM UTC-6, Kerrison wrote:
> I'm always amazed in these discussions of the Beethoven symphonies that Rene Leibowitz's name so seldom comes up. Yet his Readers Digest set was not only superbly played and recorded, the performances were as vital as could be wished. Click this link and hear for yourselves, a fiery Beethoven 5th that is indicative of the set as a whole ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOM7W8jpFw

[operafan]

On Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 11:02:38 PM UTC-5, Marc P. wrote:
> I recently got Zinman's cycle as part of the "Great Symphonies" big box ($44 new from an Amazon seller!) and except for the 9th which I haven't heard yet, love it. Zinman "out-Harnoncourts Harnoncourt" so to speak, the combination of tempos, clarity, and recording quality are immensely appealing.

I got the Zinman-conducted symphonies, concertos, overtures, and Missa Solemnis as part of a massive and cheap box containing nearly everything Beethoven wrote. I really like these performances. They are extremely well played and in good sound, with energy and feeling. By comparison, the Vanska performances of the symphonies are superficial run-throughs.

[operafan]

On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 6:33:22 PM UTC-5, John Thomas wrote:

> I agree about the concertos. I sold off the piano concertos because I have many versions already and very little space left to store CD's. But the violin concerto was so beautifully played I had to keep it.

I thought the Zinman-conducted Triple Concerto was also excellent.

[Terry]

Have you any ideas of your own?

[Dave Cook]

On 2015-11-10, richard...@gmail.com <richard...@gmail.com> wrote:

> For me the Beethoven 2nd to get is Beecham RPO EMI. Stereo, divided violins

Skrow also divides violins.

Dave Cook

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, November 15, 2015 at 8:51:05 PM UTC-8, Terry wrote:
> On Sunday, 15 November 2015 07:00:36 UTC+11, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 11:49:31 AM UTC-10, MIFrost wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 13, 2015 at 4:32:24 PM UTC-5, Gerald Martin wrote:
> > > > There now seems to be critical amnesia regarding Solti's analog Beethoven symphony cycle. I remember when the individual recordings were greeted with near adulation in the early 1970s. Now they aren't even mentioned so they can dismissed. The digital remakes are likewise ignored.
> > >
> > > I think times -- and tastes -- have changed. Reiner and Toscanini were also once regarded as benchmarks but no longer. And this is as it should be...

https://books.google.com/books?id=AdG_vTJIvwcC&pg=PA3&dq=%22a+sounder+musician+than+toscanini%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwju_NrVsffnAhW8JzQIHXemB9gQ6AEwAXoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=%22a%20sounder%20musician%20than%20toscanini%22&f=false

[Mark Zimmer]

Leibowitz is my go-to recommendation for someone wanting a first Beethoven cycle. It has a very modern notion of tempo, without diving fully into the controversies of HIP; the interpretations I find quite solid and appropriate (and without gimmicks); and the recorded sound (Decca engineering, I think?) holds up extremely well over 50 years later. Plus if you're willing to accept downloads, it can be had for next to nothing.

Mark

[gggg...@gmail.com]

Concerning his 7th:

- An exceptionally crisp and invigorating reading from another overlooked source.

http://classicalnotes.net/classics4/beethovenseventh.html

[JohnGavin]

To a great degree- E. Power Biggs. For my taste, in Bach he’s still the gold standard. This comes after listening to lots of recordings by others. The Columbias of Bach on the Harvard Flentrop are desert island recordings - due to the clarity, color and non- attention seeking of the player.