Pierre de la Roche?
Floyd Patterson
HAVE heard it suggested that the conductor was Monteux but what evidence if
any for that I have no idea.
"Eltjo Meijer" <spamv...@deadspam.com> wrote in message
news:ba6djv87bucbob866...@4ax.com...
> Who is/was Pierre de la Roche, conductor of the performance of the
> Chants d'Auvergne sung by Netania Davrath (Vanguard 2cd), or is it a
> pseudonym? And why are the orchestras nameless?
>
> Eltjo Meijer
> 1m1ij1raw@n@doo.nl
>
> (a=@=a, 1=e)
>
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
following letters to be typed in news:mdOdncacT7-...@comcast.com:
> I have no idea...and if someone knows for certain I would be interested.
> I HAVE heard it suggested that the conductor was Monteux but what
> evidence if any for that I have no idea.
I was on the verge of suggesting that somebody write to Seymour Solomon to
ask him, when Solomon died. I can't imagine there aren't orchestral
players still around who would know.
As for why, the reason is obvious -- "contractual obligations"!
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Alan Watkins
> "Floyd Patterson" <flo...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in news:mdOdncacT7-...@comcast.com:
>
> > I have no idea...and if someone knows for certain I would be interested.
> > I HAVE heard it suggested that the conductor was Monteux but what
> > evidence if any for that I have no idea.
>
> I was on the verge of suggesting that somebody write to Seymour Solomon to
> ask him, when Solomon died. I can't imagine there aren't orchestral
> players still around who would know.
>
> As for why, the reason is obvious -- "contractual obligations"!
I can only say what Ms Davrath told me because I asked her.
Canteloube was a native of the Auvergne and Mr Solomon felt that as Ms
Davrath had spent some six months studying the dialect it should be
performed by musicians from the region.
I understand that Pierre de la Roche was a noted choral/church
conductor of the region and also, apparently, the leader of an
accordion based folk orchestra. The orchestra for the recording was
hired from Auvergne musicians - I would humbly submit you only have to
listen to the wind playing to know that - on a flat fee, or so she
said. So was she.
I suppose it could have been Mr Monteux in disguise but I doubt it.
The orchestra is certainly not in disguise. If Mr Monteux had a
secret life as the leader of an Auvergne accordion band then I suppose
he should take the credit!
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Alan Watkins
Kingsley who attended at least some of the recording sessions.
Floyd Patterson
"Alan Watkins" <alanwa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:62c8649c.03081...@posting.google.com...
Paul Goldstein
>
>I have no idea...and if someone knows for certain I would be interested. I
>HAVE heard it suggested that the conductor was Monteux but what evidence if
>any for that I have no idea.
I have heard this rumor too, but I believe there is absolutely nothing to it.
Claude Monteux, Pierre's son, has posted to RMCR in the past. Maybe someone
could e-mail him and ask if he knows?
>"Eltjo Meijer" <spamv...@deadspam.com> wrote in message
>news:ba6djv87bucbob866...@4ax.com...
>> Who is/was Pierre de la Roche, conductor of the performance of the
>> Chants d'Auvergne sung by Netania Davrath (Vanguard 2cd), or is it a
>> pseudonym? And why are the orchestras nameless?
>>
Paul Goldstein
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
following letters to be typed in
I guess that settles that, once and for all! This should be in the FAQ.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's Fault!
Alan Watkins
having the vision to create such a recording.
Yes, there are many lovely performances of this lovely work but in
those I have heard the orchestra is ALWAYS far too sophisticated. The
"unknown orchestra" get to the absolute heart of this work and it's
probably hard to beat a singer of quality singing in the local
dialect.
She was a truly great artist and also a lovely person.
Rodger Whitlock
> I can only say what Ms Davrath told me because I asked her.
> Canteloube was a native of the Auvergne and Mr Solomon felt that as Ms
> Davrath had spent some six months studying the dialect it should be
> performed by musicians from the region.
>
> I understand that Pierre de la Roche was a noted choral/church
> conductor of the region and also, apparently, the leader of an
> accordion based folk orchestra. The orchestra for the recording was
> hired from Auvergne musicians - I would humbly submit you only have to
> listen to the wind playing to know that - on a flat fee, or so she
> said. So was she.
>
> I suppose it could have been Mr Monteux in disguise but I doubt it.
> The orchestra is certainly not in disguise. If Mr Monteux had a
> secret life as the leader of an Auvergne accordion band then I suppose
> he should take the credit!
The Vanguard CD says the recording was made in Vienna. That
doesn't mesh well with the statement that the musicians were
Auvergnoisie.
Was this putative Auvergne accordion conductor actually named
Pierre de la Roche -- or was he recording under a pseudonym as
Pierre Monteux is oft claimed to have done?
--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Paul Goldstein
Are you saying that Monteux often made recordings under pseudonyms? That is
news to me. What recordings are you referring to?
Paul Goldstein
Alan Watkins
I do not know. I can only say what I was told. For all I know it was
recorded in Vienna but I would venture a view as an orchestral
musician: the musicians were certainly not "hired" in Vienna! That I
would say with some certainty.
If people believe that it was Pierre Monteux who was conducting it
that is one thing but I hope we all agree on who was singing it? A
truly wonderful artist and a delightful lady. Bugger who was
conducting it...although I understand the interest.
In my view, she wipes the floor with anyone else singing these songs.
Alan Watkins
PS: As a tribute to this great artist could I point out that she
always donated 50 per cent of her fee between three child charities.
Rodger Whitlock
> In article <3f3a67e9...@news.newsguy.com>, Rodger Whitlock says...
> >Was this putative Auvergne accordion conductor actually named
> >Pierre de la Roche -- or was he recording under a pseudonym as
> >Pierre Monteux is oft claimed to have done?
>
> Are you saying that Monteux often made recordings under pseudonyms? That is
> news to me. What recordings are you referring to?
I meant that the claim is often made, but in respect of only this
one recording of Canteloube, that it was *really* Pierre Monteux
conducting.
I've never heard of any other case of PM working under a
pseudonym. and did not mean to imply that I had.
Rodger Whitlock
> totototo...@mail.pacificcoast.invalid (Rodger Whitlock) wrote in message news:<3f3a67e9...@news.newsguy.com>...
> > On 11 Aug 2003 14:43:17 -0700, Alan Watkins wrote:
> > > The orchestra for the recording was
> > > hired from Auvergne musicians - I would humbly submit you only have to
> > > listen to the wind playing to know that ...The orchestra is certainly
> > > not in disguise.
> > The Vanguard CD says the recording was made in Vienna. That
> > doesn't mesh well with the statement that the musicians were
> > Auvergnoisie.
> ...For all I know it was
> recorded in Vienna but I would venture a view as an orchestral
> musician: the musicians were certainly not "hired" in Vienna! That I
> would say with some certainty.
The back inlay of the Vanguard issue (OVC 8001/2) says "Recorded
3/27/63 and 3/16/66, Baumgartner Hall, Vienna" (I have the CD's
before me as I type).
It seems to me extremely unlikely that Vanguard would have
imported Auvergnois musicians to Vienna for a single day's work.
How peculiar! Either the Vanguard notes are wrong, Mme. Davrath
was wrong, or our Old Musician's memory of Mme. Davrath's account
is completely haywire.
Yet none of these is really an acceptable explanation of the
apparent contradictions.
One question, Old Musician: you are evidently basing your
conviction not just on Mme. Davrath's testimony, but on the
calibre of the orchestral playing, esp. the winds. In so doing,
are you making reference to *all* of this 2-CD recording, or
perchance only to the last part, "New Songs of the Auvergne"? The
inlay says that one part is conducted by the arranger, Gershon
Kingsley, not the mysterious Pierre de la Roche. It is
conceivable that only part was recorded a la Auvergnois.
Curioser and curioser.
Paul Goldstein
Just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing out on some unknown recordings by one of
my favorite conductors.
Paul Goldstein
Larry Friedman
"Rodger Whitlock" <totototo...@mail.pacificcoast.invalid> wrote in
message news:3f3af5c7...@news.newsguy.com...
I append this simply in the spirit of "should you care". The adjective for
someone or something that comes from the Auvergne region of France is
"auvergnat". As an adjective it is not capitilized; as a noun it is. Weird,
I know. It makes about as much sense as saying "Brooklynese" instead of
"Brooklynian", or "Liverpudlian" instead of ... of ... of ...
"Liverpoolese"???
-Larry
Rodger Whitlock
>
> "Rodger Whitlock" <totototo...@mail.pacificcoast.invalid> wrote:
> > ...Auvergnois...
> I append this simply in the spirit of "should you care". The adjective for
> someone or something that comes from the Auvergne region of France is
> "auvergnat". As an adjective it is not capitilized; as a noun it is. Weird,
> I know. It makes about as much sense as saying "Brooklynese" instead of
> "Brooklynian", or "Liverpudlian" instead of ... of ... of ...
> "Liverpoolese"???
I invented my word out of thin air. Guessed wrong. Too bad!
Looking through Larousse Gastronomique this morning, I had
noticed "auvergnat" but too late to use it.
Alan Watkins
Most of all I base my remarks on what the late Ms Davrath told me.
Secondly, I would think it highly unlikely that either volume was
"recorded" on a single day. It might have been finished on the
particular days quoted but, so far as other people tell me, Mr Seymour
was not one for paying lots of overtime rates and I don't see either
book being captured in a single session. This is not music widely
known to either performers or musicians, or not the WHOLE books.
And, with great respect, if it is instant sight-reading and "straight
in the can" recording you are looking for, I doubt you hire your
musicians in Vienna. So far as I know they have never been noted for
this: quite the opposite in fact, demanding substantial rehearsals.
I do not own the CD recordings but on the first volume of the Vanguard
LP issue I have these are NOT musicians sight-reading, I would say.
These are musicians thoroughly familiar with the idiom in which they
are playing. I would suggest you would need a lot of rehearsal with
orchestral musicians to persuade the wind section to play with such
freedom and I seriously challenge that could be achieved in one day
including everything "in the can". I really do not believe that.
What you (or Vanguard) would be saying is that everything in Book One
and Book Two went in the can first time with no retakes and I find
that hard to believe. It's not impossible but it would be close to a
miracle.
Neither do I believe there is a "viennese" oboe if such a thing
exists. It sounds to me much closer to a hautbois or even a shawm as
(if it is coming from the Auvergne, it should). It is slightly sharp
(see threads about Ansermet orchestral players) which I would not
expect to find in Vienna in a "one day, all in the can" performance,
either.
Are Vanguard saying that both books were rehearsed and recorded on the
same day? Wow, that is pretty impressive. Presumably in those days
there were no sound engineers about to spend innumerable hours taking
balances before the rehearsal/recording took place and further time
adjusting their microphones? (I assume that: "Please could I have a
forte A from the wind and a D roll on the timpani" was not necessary
then and blimey we are already nearly at 11 o'clock and we haven't set
down a single note) Presumably Pierre de la Monteux (aka Pierre de
la Roche, Pierre of The Rock) had the immense good fortune to conduct
his way through a Viennese orchestra who adroitly sight read their way
first time through all these songs to perfection.
And thoughtfully, in one song, the percussionist just happened to have
with him some gigantic 24 jingle tambourine anticipating what Pierre
de la Monteux might require? The sort of tambourine that no
orchestral player would carry unless asked in advance.......or unless
they had some understanding of the music of the Auvergne?
You may be right about the conductor but whoever was conducting I
would be willing to bet that either session was not done in one day.
That's nonsense, whatever Vanguard notes say.
When Ms Kanawa recorded some of the songs in England with the English
Chamber Orchestra they took the best part of a day over one song! I
do not believe what Vanguard say...unless of course they had people SO
familiar with the repertoire and even then I would disbelieve that
either book was done in one session.
Allen & Linda Tyler
I have the remastered CD release from 1996 (SVC-38/39) and it contains no reference to the location of the recording. It does
give the original LP issue dates (VSD 2090 in 1963 and VSD79209 in 1966), indicating that probably the two sets were recorded at
different times, and, perhaps, different places.
Regardless of the identity of "Pierre de la Roche" and where the recordings were made, they are, in my opinion, better than any
subsequent recordings.
Allen Tyler
Alan Watkins
> give the original LP issue dates (VSD 2090 in 1963 and VSD79209 in 1966), indicating that probably the two sets were recorded at
> different times, and, perhaps, different places.
>
> Regardless of the identity of "Pierre de la Roche" and where the recordings were made, they are, in my opinion, better than any
> subsequent recordings.
>
> Allen Tyler
Exactly right Mr Tyler but I believe what Ms Davrath told me. She
spent months learning the dialect (and she was a natural linguist,
fluent in at least eight languages). One of her "party tricks" was to
say: "My welcome to you, how are you today" with each word in a
different language!
I'll trust my ears. That is NOT a symphony orchestra. Which is
exactly why some subsequent recordings have come unstuck.
Rodger Whitlock
Well, I've developed a high degree of respect for the Aged
Percussionist in our midst, so I'm still wondering just what went
on.
Your earlier remark that they couldn't record the entire Songs of
the Auvergne in just two days has to be right. But the dates that
Vanguard quotes may be the starting dates, the finish dates, or
something else.
OTOH, if the performers had been giving concerts of this music,
and had it down pat, they might have been able to put it down on
tape in hardly more than one take. I wonder if there ~were~ any
concert performances in conjunction with this recording? Too bad
we don't have any regulars from either Vienna or the Auvergne
proper; it would be very interesting to see what a search of the
local newspapers of the time would turn up.
Another, perhaps more accessible, source of information would be
the American record review magazines of the day: Stereo Review,
High Fidelity, and ARG as it then was.
If anyone has a good file of Schwann catalogues for the early
1960's, could they see if they can find what month these
recordings were "New Releases"?