Gilbert and Sullivan - Sargent Remastered????

[Willem Orange]

I see that Warner classics is reissuing the Sargent Gilbert and Sullivan on July 10 with original jackets - does anyone know if the recordings have been remastered????

[Terry]

On Tuesday, 7 July 2015 03:11:44 UTC+10, Willem Orange wrote:
> I see that Warner classics is reissuing the Sargent Gilbert and Sullivan on July 10 with original jackets - does anyone know if the recordings have been remastered????

Re-cast would be more useful, in my opinion.

[Christopher Webber]

On 07/07/2015 13:14, Terry wrote:
> Re-cast would be more useful, in my opinion.

Who did you have in mind?

[Willem Orange]

Yes there is always someone who has to thrown in an unsolicited 2 cents worth of nothing

[Gerard]

"Willem Orange" wrote in message
news:c3847058-bf8f-4200...@googlegroups.com...

=================

Whining again?

[Willem Orange]

And here is another 2 cents worth of nothing

[Terry]

As I have always found most of the singing in the Sargent G. & S. recordings totally unstylish, what I have in mind are the d'Oyly Carte casts. The (sadly curtailed) Mackerras recordings are a much better bet than Sargent's in my opinion.

[Christopher Webber]

On 08/07/2015 00:33, Terry wrote:
> As I have always found most of the singing in the Sargent G. & S. recordings totally unstylish, what I have in mind are the d'Oyly Carte casts.

I see. In what sense are such leading singers (and fine vocal actors) as
Richard Lewis, Elsie Morison, Monica Sinclair, Alexander Young and Owen
Brannigan (to take a clutch at random just from the Sargent
'Gondoliers') "unstylish"?

Geraint Evans is of course not a light baritone, I grant you: but like
the above mentioned he grew up with G&S in his DNA and sang a lot of it.
The Sargent recordings have become classics, and rightly so. Most -
though not all - of the in-house D'Oyly Carte sets leave much more to be
desired.

[Willem Orange]

Well there are some really wonderful G and S in both - e.g. the Sargent Trial By Jury is very different from the others in the series - imaginatively "staged" for records it is lots of fun to hear - I wonder why that was the only one in the series recorded that way. In the D'Oyly Carte sets the 1960 Pinafore is one of the times everything went right - gorgeously recorded and sounds like a live performance. And even now some of the early electrical sets have a life in them later sets can't quite match e.g. the 1927 Gondoliers. There is a large G and S legacy on records and we are fortunate to be able to pick and choose. I may add that if you like the early 50s Martyn Green sets ( I have an affection for them)you should avoid at all costs the really wretched Naxos transfers - thin, constricted and bettered in every respect by the wonderful Sounds on CD transfers.

[Willem Orange]

Reviews on Amazon UK show the recordings are the same transfers as the last Sargent G and S box.

[Terry]

Neither the singers nor the conductor convey any impression that they've done the works onstage. Simple as that.

[Christopher Webber]

On 08/07/2015 14:35, Terry wrote:
> Neither the singers nor the conductor convey any impression that they've done the works onstage. Simple as that.

I beg to differ, both as to the imputation (that these singers hadn't
performed G&S on stage) and the impression. It would be hard, for
example, to better Richard Lewis's Fairfax, which has operatic depth and
power, as you'd expect from a singer who excelled in roles such as
Walton's Troilus and Tippett's Mark and Achilles. But he had regularly
sung G&S as a young singer, amateur and professional.

They were all, without exception, extremely experienced and versatile
theatre singers. And Sargent's early experience as a conductor (and a
stage director, while he was about it!) was firmly based around *staged
productions* of G&S: that experience defined his approach to the
conductor's craft.

This myth - that the singers and conductor were inexperienced in the
repertoire - needs squashing most firmly. It's just as inaccurate as
saying that the D'Oyly Carte principals did nothing *but* G&S. Some of
us, for example, recall Donald Adams's Baron Ochs (for Opera North) as
one of the most complete assumptions of the role we ever saw.

Whilst I personally find Isadore Godfrey's tempi more intuitive than
some of Sargent's, he always makes us listen to this wonderful music
with fresh ears - even 60 years on. And both of them are immeasurably
superior to anyone who's recorded the operas since, with the exception
of Charles Mackerras. There at least we can agree.

[Willem Orange]

it should also be said that Sargents conducting in the later stereo sets is quite different from his work in the early electricals which are definitely faster and rhythmically more incisive.

[Christopher Webber]

On 08/07/2015 17:41, Willem Orange wrote:
> it should also be said that Sargents conducting in the later stereo sets is quite different from his work in the early electricals which are definitely faster and rhythmically more incisive.

Very true!

[Terry]

All of that may be true. It certainly doesn't come across on record. That's my point.

[Christopher Webber]

On 09/07/2015 00:14, Terry wrote:
> All of that may be true. It certainly doesn't come across on record. That's my point.

The artistry and expertise of Sargent's top-flight G&S singers (such as
Lewis, Sinclair et al.) may not "come across" to you, although it has
done to many others down the years. You don't hear qualities which
others do in these admirable recordings? Fine! But happily, mere
assertion that you are right isn't going to convince anyone they've been
deluded in enjoying them for decades.

Willem is right to point to the faster, more incisive quality of
Sargent's early recordings of this repertoire, and I would agree. But if
we want to hear these scores extremely well sung, then that certainly
"comes across" in trumps from Sargent's 'Glyndbourne' series, as it does
in few others. And his last major G&S recording - the 1967 'Princess
Ida' featuring Elizabeth Harwood with D'Oyly Carte principals of the day
such as Donald Adams, John Reed, Kenneth Sandford and Valerie Masterson
- is an abiding testament to Sargent's ability to communicate these
scores.

[Terry]

You pays your money, you have a listen, and you makes your choice. Always thus. I did that years ago, and for all the merits of the classy singers HMV assembled for Sargent, the final result, for me, is very studio-bound.

It reminds me of the studio recording Bernstein made, of West Side Story. Classy singers; a conductor who couldn't have been accused of not knowing his stuff; but as a performance, dead in the water. I suggest that people listen and compare. (Not that a great deal of financial investment is involved: these G&S recordings are as cheap as chips.)

[Christopher Webber]

On 09/07/2015 09:34, Terry wrote:
> It reminds me of the studio recording Bernstein made, of West Side Story. Classy singers; a conductor who couldn't have been accused of not knowing his stuff; but as a performance, dead in the water.

A very different kettle of onions. The problem there was the inclusion
of famous singers who were (infamously) unfamiliar with the style of the
work, and all at sea with it. That 'West Side Story' sounds both
overblown, and tentative.

This is not a problem with Sargent's 'Glyndebourne' G&S casts, who'd in
the main performed their roles on stage, although not together. To
generalise the results as equally "dead in the water" is belied by the
continued popularity of these recordings, and the enthusiasm of many,
ordinary music lovers. More than fifty years on, they're still getting
re-released and re-purchased.

Quite right too. I too would urge listeners to compare, say, the 1957
Sargent 'Gondoliers' with the other stereo CD and/or DVD versions. A
cast to die for, and several leagues up musically from the competition.

[Willem Orange]

I think we are lucky we have both of those stereo sets since they offer different things - generally the D.Oyly Carte esp ones with dialogue have a liveliness and theatricality allied to a really palpable sense of tradition. You also sometimes have some "not quite enough" singing e.g. Mary Sansom in Patience that makes you happy to have Elsie Morison instead.The Sargent stereo sets concentrate on the musical aspects and the orchestral playing shows us the really miraculous Sullivan scoring in a way sometimes skirted over by the other set. However the slower tempi and the lack of dialogue often gives a concert performance air to the proceedings. This is not to say that the sets don't cross over in their values - George Baker is so wonderful that he makes you forget how old he is the great Monica Sinclair proves that you really need the Bertha Lewis type contralto to make the proper impact.

[Christopher Webber]

On 09/07/2015 13:08, Willem Orange wrote:

> This is not to say that the sets don't cross over in their values - George Baker is so wonderful that he makes you forget how old he is the great Monica Sinclair proves that you really need the Bertha Lewis type contralto to make the proper impact.

Indeed they do: and listening to the very old sets and extracts, it's
clear that singing was top priority for all the pre-war generations of
G&S performers. Many of the original artists doubled as opera singers,
which is why Monica Sinclair (wonderful indeed) shows her rivals how
such music and words should be performed.

In general of course you are quite right: the two classic stereo
readings have complementary virtues. But if it's musicality I'm after,
it's Sargent over the various Godfrey sets (almost) every time. Knowing
all the texts as well as I do, I personally can manage without needing -
or wanting - to hear the dialogue done in 1960's style!

[Terry]

A nice summary.

[Steve de Mena]

Does anyone really care about G&S today? It always bored me to tears
and I don't see many new recordings. The Mackerras ones from like 10
years ago were about it. Seems like it's always been a niche interest.

Steve

[cooper...@gmail.com]

A "niche interest" as opposed to everything else having to do with classical music? Like Mass-Market Monteverdi? I've never been high on G&S myself (tho' I loved "Topsy-Turvy"), but have friends who are absolute fanatics, including one who seems to have the entire oeuvre committed to memory and will launch into a tune at the drop of a hat. So I say, live & let live :-)

Alan

[Willem Orange]

On Thursday, July 9, 2015 at 11:34:05 AM UTC-4, Steven de Mena wrote:

A stupid and unnecessary remark - the fact you found it necessary to stick your opinions about G and S in the middle of this discussion says more about you and your need to be validated than it does about G and S. - Stick to discussing stereo equipment.

[Christopher Webber]

On 09/07/2015, Steve de Mena wrote:
> Does anyone really care about G&S today? It always bored me to tears
>>and I don't see many new recordings. The Mackerras ones from like 10
>>years ago were about it. Seems like it's always been a niche interest.

As Alan has written (more or less) that's some "niche"! The word does
sound particularly out of place, in the context of just about the most
successful operas ever written, from the commercial and sociological
point of view. Aesthetically, even after over 100 years they're still
standing up well. So what silly snobbery to talk about "niche
interests": and since when did that count as a put-down here, anyway?

And yes, judging from the large number of productions mounted worldwide
(even in Spain) a lot of people still do care a great deal. Quite right too.

[Willem Orange]

No question - of course in England local and school productions still abound (they are so much fun to do regardless of the resources) but here in the states as well they are still all over - my old prep school is doing one now) The fact that recordings have slowed down doesn't mean much of anything - now to add some posters to my "little list"

[O]

In article <d06ljk...@mid.individual.net>, Christopher Webber

Listening to this right now on Spotify:

Marvelous singing - though very spacious. It's a bit of a "leisurely"
performance. Sargent's accompaniment is top-notch in excellent sound.
You get to hear a whole lot of details that are normally lost. The
lower pace loses some of the tension that you get in a typical live G&S
performance, but this is just the music, so we get to hear it sung
magnificently instead.

-Owen

[Al Eisner]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015, Christopher Webber wrote:

> Geraint Evans is of course not a light baritone, I grant you: but like the
> above mentioned he grew up with G&S in his DNA

Don't be silly. DNA has no S in it, only A, C, G & T.
--
Al Eisner

[Christopher Webber]

On 09/07/2015 20:28, Willem Orange wrote:
> The fact that recordings have slowed down doesn't mean much of anything - now to add some posters to my "little list"

Opera recordings in general have ground to a near-total halt: at least,
"proper" studio ones have.

The last studio 'Boheme', I think, was recorded in 1999 with Bocelli and
Frittoli. And I was surprised, when reviewing the Oehms Classics
'Fanciulla del West' last year (a live one), that the last studio
recording of that opera (with Marton) was issued in 1991, nearly a
quarter of a century ago.

Have we got all the recordings we really need? Whether it's 'Mikado',
'Manon' or 'Madama Butterfly', I do sometimes wonder....

[Christopher Webber]

On 09/07/2015 19:32, O wrote:
> The
> lower pace loses some of the tension that you get in a typical live G&S
> performance, but this is just the music, so we get to hear it sung
> magnificently instead.

I agree ... and only one number cut (Lady Blanche's aria "Come, Mighty
Must") which is better than you'll find elsewhere, with the exception of
Ohio Light Opera's complete version with dialogue.

[Willem Orange]

Yes the only place you found Come mighty must in the complete sets was Bertha Lewis singing it magnificently in the very last acoustic set recorded in 1924 - still a wonderful set and arguably the best version.

[AcousticLevitation.org]

<< Have we got all the recordings we really need? Whether it's 'Mikado',
'Manon' or 'Madama Butterfly', I do sometimes wonder.... >>

There are never enough, but there are enough to satisfy if need be. With opera, especially G&S, lately I find myself much more readily drawn to DVDs thank LPs and CDs. I'm grateful that so many new operas which are not available on CD are readily obtained on DVD (and that the operas have subtitles, although not always in the original languages too).

Steve

[Christopher Webber]

On 10/07/2015 04:06, AcousticLevitation.org wrote:
> I'm grateful that so many new operas which are not available on CD are readily obtained on DVD (and that the operas have subtitles, although not always in the original languages too).

Yes, that is a great boon. The recent DVD appearance of Sallinen's 'King
Lear', frustratingly never released by Ondine on CD, is a case in point.

The big problem with many G&S operas, though, is the lack of decent DVD
issues of good, stage productions.

[Christopher Webber]

On 09/07/2015 23:11, Willem Orange wrote:
> Yes the only place you found Come mighty must in the complete sets was Bertha Lewis singing it magnificently in the very last acoustic set recorded in 1924 - still a wonderful set and arguably the best version.

I can't disagree: though of course there are cuts elsewhere in that
wonderful set.

[LarryLap]

Even though I have received the keenest pleasure from G & S for all my adult life, I do get your point: Since inexhaustible melodic invention and limitless sensitivity to the comic potential of the English language are almost nowhere in evidence in today's culture, why waste one's time in seeking them out?

[Steve de Mena]

The fact no one is recording G&S any more makes it more than "my opinion".

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

Real popular. That's why there's been virtually no recordings since
Mackerras 10 years ago.

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

Right.

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

Who said anything about studio versus live recordings? Have there been
a bunch of G&S live recordings I missed?

And why now, in 2015, are we saying "Why do we need any more
recordings of...." [fill in the blanks]? Are we just trying to make
ourselves feel better that classical recording output of major
orchestras has declined?

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

Why is there a lack of decent DVDs if they're so popular and I'm the
supposed odd man out here for not enjoying them?

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

On 7/9/15 10:02 AM, Willem Orange wrote:

Touchy, are we? Please post a detailed list of works and performers
you like, so I'll make sure not to post anything that might offend you.

Steve

[Willem Orange]

Touchy??not really but your remarks had absolutely nothing to do with the discussion going on and were just a sign that you had to put your 2 cents in about the value of the works themselves - an opinion of absolutely no interest to me or any of the other participants in the discussion I'm sure. As to your continued and ridiculous assertion that a works popularity is directly allied to the number of new recordings (as if there could be no other factors)tell me how many new recording of La Boheme have appeared in the last 15 years - I'm not even asking for studio recordinsgs since there are just about dead but even commercial recordings based on live performances. Its one of the most popular operas so according to your theory there should be a slew of new recordings to feed that interest and popularity- where are they????

[Willem Orange]

No one cares if you enjoy them or not ( why should we) if you knew anything about G and S you would know that productions need a certain amount of style and care so that they don't fall into buffoonery. Many of the current DVDs fall into that very trap.

[Ricardo Jimenez]

I assume that the reference is to the DVDs/BDs coming out of
Australia. How bad are they? I can imagine that the lack of trying
to update the action will polarize the set of prospective viewers.

[Steve de Mena]

On 7/11/15 7:33 AM, Willem Orange wrote:

>>>> Does anyone really care about G&S today? It always bored me to tears
>>>> and I don't see many new recordings. The Mackerras ones from like 10
>>>> years ago were about it. Seems like it's always been a niche interest.
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>
>>> A stupid and unnecessary remark - the fact you found it necessary to stick your opinions about G and S in the middle of this discussion says more about you and your need to be validated than it does about G and S. - Stick to discussing stereo equipment.
>>>
>>
>> "A stupid and unnecessary remark"
>>
>> Touchy, are we? Please post a detailed list of works and performers
>> you like, so I'll make sure not to post anything that might offend you.
>>
>> Steve
>
> Touchy??not really but your remarks had absolutely nothing to do with the discussion going on and were just a sign that you had to put your 2 cents in about the value of the works themselves - an opinion of absolutely no interest to me or any of the other participants in the discussion I'm sure. As to your continued and ridiculous assertion that a works popularity is directly allied to the number of new recordings (as if there could be no other factors)tell me how many new recording of La Boheme have appeared in the last 15 years - I'm not even asking for studio recordinsgs since there are just about dead but even commercial recordings based on live performances. Its one of the most popular operas so according to your theory there should be a slew of new recordings to feed that interest and popularity- where are they????
>

Recordings were just one measure. They just live on in antique documents.

This is a classical music recordings newsgroup. Are we to only post
opinions that are of interest to you? We can't express our own
opinions on music? But we can discuss politics or religion for days
(which I don't participate in) and no one says a thing.

G&S Live performances are dead too. And hasn't changed since this
article (link below) from the UK 5 years ago (where you'd think they
would be more popular). There are probably professional productions of
La Boheme many times a month.

Recordings:
Anna Netrebko, Villazon (DG)
Elena de la Merced,Villazon (DVD Capriccio)
Riccardo Chailly, Angela Gheorghiu and Roberto Alagna (Decca)
Mehta, Bocelli (Decca)
Opera Australia (ABC Classics)

Last 100 years of Mikado:
Selected audio recordings
1926 D'Oyly Carte – Conductor: Harry Norris[99]
1936 D'Oyly Carte – Conductor: Isidore Godfrey[100]
1950 D'Oyly Carte – New Promenade Orchestra, Conductor: Isidore
Godfrey[101]
1957 D'Oyly Carte – New Symphony Orchestra of London, Conductor:
Isidore Godfrey[102]
1984 Stratford Festival – Conductor: Berthold Carrière[103]
1990 New D'Oyly Carte – Conductor: John Pryce-Jones[104]
1992 Mackerras/Telarc – Orchestra & Chorus of the Welsh National
Opera, Conductor: Sir Charles Mackerras[105]


http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/features/its-time-to-reassess-gilbert-and-sullivan-2078399.html

"Increasingly "G&S" have been regarded as the preserve of university
G&S societies and amateur dramatics, attracting obsessive boffins who
know all the words by heart. "

Guess it's not just me.

"Some, admittedly, regard G&S as dated and the faux-Orient of The
Mikado, one of their most enduring hits, as silly and patronising."

Please note - not my quote.

Steve

[Christopher Webber]

On 11/07/2015 22:30, Steve de Mena wrote:
> G&S Live performances are dead too.

Oh really? Well, if you'd been in London last month or this month you
could see Mike Leigh's new 'Pirates of Penzance' at English National
Opera (assuming you could beg, borrow or steal a ticket).

And closer to home, if you are in Ohio this month or next you can hear
'Ruddigore' and 'Yeomen of the Guard' live, professionally staged by the
excellent Ohio Light Opera. (You can also hear me give a couple of talks
on zarzuela at the International Operetta Symposium there, which I'm
sure you'll find an equally alluring prospect.)

To (slightly mis)quote 'The Gondoliers',
"He's a silly, but he answers pretty well".

[Christopher Webber]

On 11/07/2015 22:30, Steve de Mena wrote:

> Guess it's not just me.
>
> "Some, admittedly, regard G&S as dated and the faux-Orient of The
> Mikado, one of their most enduring hits, as silly and patronising."
>
> Please note - not my quote.

You might rather have chosen to quote what Ms Duchen says at the end:

"It's time we appreciated G&S a little more as the national heroes they
are. English National Opera had a smash hit with Jonathan Miller's
production of The Mikado. Couldn't Covent Garden or Glyndebourne score
similar successes? ... But maybe they're too English, too funny and too
popular. Is that not good enough? As Gilbert might have said: piffle!"

Well, ENO have another big hit with the Mike Leigh 'Pirates...".

Guess it is just you (and silly old Michael White) after all. Anybody
who thinks 'The Mikado' is either silly or patronising must be looking
into the mirror instead of onto the stage.

[Steve de Mena]

On 7/11/15 4:17 PM, Christopher Webber wrote:
> On 11/07/2015 22:30, Steve de Mena wrote:
>> G&S Live performances are dead too.
>
> Oh really? Well, if you'd been in London last month or this month you
> could see Mike Leigh's new 'Pirates of Penzance' at English National
> Opera (assuming you could beg, borrow or steal a ticket).

Ticket sales likely boosted by Mike Leigh's name. The first 4 reviews
I read from Google about this production were lukewarm at best.
Here's the first one from a Google search:

"The comic business is deftly done, and the cast is a good one – with
Claudia Boyle a standout as Mabel – but director Mike Leigh offers few
insights or surprises in his opera debut."

"The costumes, on the other hand, would have fitted perfectly into any
Pirates production from the fossilised days of the D’Oyly Carte
company’s G&S, and the evening often seems more like an exercise in
affectionate nostalgia than anything else."

"Despite its handful of famous numbers, the score is by no means one
of Sullivan’s finest"

"Stagings at the Coliseum of Princess Ida, The Gondoliers, and, in
2004, The Pirates of Penzance all failed to make a lasting impression. "

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/may/10/eno-mike-leigh-pirates-of-penzance-review-an-exercise-in-affectionate-nostalgia

Comment at end from a reader:

"All credit to the cast, who really brought Pirates to life - Claudia
Boyle was a real delight - but Pirates isn't that good a piece, and
frankly needed a bit of, dare I say it, 'spin'. It's what I thought
Mike Leigh was going to bring to it, and while he did do a good job,
the production lacked fizz and visual wit the ENO's evergreen Mikado
has in buckets.

In that respect it was a poor mistake to pair Leigh with the otherwise
excellent Alison Chitty, who designed a cheap-but-not-that-cheerful
production and made it depressingly bland. It was a missed
opportunity. It was, perhaps, another poor management decision. This
opera company really looks as if it's running out of money."


Steve

[Gerard]

"Willem Orange" wrote in message
news:58c95269-58bb-4c0e...@googlegroups.com...

A stupid and unnecessary remark - the fact you found it necessary to stick
your opinions about G and S in the middle of this discussion says more
about you and your need to be validated than it does about G and S. - Stick
to discussing stereo equipment.

===================

Spoken like the moderator you'ld like to be.

[Christopher Webber]

On 12/07/2015 09:05, Steve de Mena wrote:
> On 7/11/15 4:17 PM, Christopher Webber wrote:
>> On 11/07/2015 22:30, Steve de Mena wrote:
>>> G&S Live performances are dead too.
>>
>> Oh really? Well, if you'd been in London last month or this month you
>> could see Mike Leigh's new 'Pirates of Penzance' at English National
>> Opera (assuming you could beg, borrow or steal a ticket).
>
> Ticket sales likely boosted by Mike Leigh's name. The first 4 reviews I
> read from Google about this production were lukewarm at best. Here's the
> first one from a Google search:

Good to see you quoting so selectively, and keeping such an open mind.
The review in 'Opera' was entirely positive and enthusiastic, by the way
(and it was not by me).

The point, in answer your assertion that nobody's interested, is that
*the show is popular and selling out*: whatever the critics may have
thought.

Your trollish behaviour (geared merely to irritate people who like and
understand Sullivan's work, by throwing mud at it, without having
anything of your own to contribute) remains as tedious as ever.

[Steve de Mena]

On 7/11/15 4:17 PM, Christopher Webber wrote:

> And closer to home, if you are in Ohio this month or next you can hear
> 'Ruddigore' and 'Yeomen of the Guard' live, professionally staged by
> the excellent Ohio Light Opera. (You can also hear me give a couple of
> talks on zarzuela at the International Operetta Symposium there, which
> I'm sure you'll find an equally alluring prospect.)

Why would you assume I don't like zarzuelas? I don't know much about
them but am open to listening to more. In the 80s in radio I ran a
Zarzuela program but since I was multi-tasking I couldn't really pay
attention to the music much. It was generally all from Alhambra
US-pressed LPs - what I assumed were reissues of Spanish recording
from probably the 60s era from some of the performer names I recognized.

Steve

[Christopher Webber]

This is addressed to appreciators, not the tabloid trolls:

Isn't is curious how, well over 100 years after Sullivan's death, he
still divides opinion so virulently? This is especially true of the
critics, but it's also true of musicians: for every Mackerras or John
Wilson, who love and appreciate his music and are prepared to
proselytise for it, there's a Rattle who feels quite the contrary.

Remarkably few academics or critics can bring themselves to accept the
verifiable fact, that the extraordinary revival in the fortunes of
home-grown British music stems, not from Elgar, but from Sullivan before
him. Sullivan was an international phenomenon before Elgar was out of
short trousers.

A lot of this comes down to the perennial curse of Opera Snobbery: how
can anything so commercially successful be good? There's an exclusivity
at work in the minds of those critics (and RMCR trolls) who cannot bring
themselves to admit that Sullivan's music is popular, not because it is
cheap, but because (like all the great composers) he communicates very
clearly, and built his best music to last.

[Christopher Webber]

On 12/07/2015 10:33, Steve de Mena wrote:
> Why would you assume I don't like zarzuelas? I don't know much about
> them but am open to listening to more. In the 80s in radio I ran a
> Zarzuela program but since I was multi-tasking I couldn't really pay
> attention to the music much. It was generally all from Alhambra
> US-pressed LPs - what I assumed were reissues of Spanish recording from
> probably the 60s era from some of the performer names I recognized.

Let me correct you: my assumption was that you wouldn't be keen on
hearing *me*, rather than anything to do with your possible liking for
zarzuela!

FYI, the extremely long series of Alhambra LP recordings (under Argenta,
aided by a handful of other conductors, even before his untimely
accidental death) was a massive, state-sponsored project from the early
1950's, not the 60's.

A great initiative, of course: but one which had the unfortunate
side-effect of setting the politically safe repertoire under the
dictatorship in stone, and sidelining works (some of very high quality)
which Franco and the Church had banned, on moral and religious grounds.
The musical probity of the series is also rather variable.

The performers whose names you recognised used these recordings as a
springboard into the worldwide celebrity which the likes of Berganza,
Lorengar and Ausensi enjoyed from the 1960's onwards. Later Domingo,
Carreras and Caballe followed the same zarzueloid route to fame:
Domingo, of course, comes from a zarzuela family and puts a huge effort
into putting the genre onto the global, operatic map.

[Willem Orange]

Posted like the little termite you are

[Willem Orange]

Yes and didn't Sullivan run into that same snobbery during his lifetime which caused him no little distress. How many critics went happily to the Savoy and then castigated Sullivan for not composing something more "meaningful" - really awful hypocrisy

[Willem Orange]

It seems that this poster just throws anything into the mix regardless of its relevance - starting out with he doesn't like G and S (interesting to him and no one else) then that it is just niche entertainment (another assertion based on nothing in particular though he tried to connect it to the number of recordings in the last years conveniently forgetting all the other factors in the sad state of the current recording industry). Then he throws in that the works are hardly done anymore and posts a lukewarm review as if there is some kind of connection between the two ideas). Frankly I think we are getting to diminishing returns (and for me---boredom)

[Christopher Webber]

On 12/07/2015 11:30, Willem Orange wrote:
> It seems that this poster just throws anything into the mix regardless of its relevance - starting out with he doesn't like G and S (interesting to him and no one else) then that it is just niche entertainment (another assertion based on nothing in particular though he tried to connect it to the number of recordings in the last years conveniently forgetting all the other factors in the sad state of the current recording industry). Then he throws in that the works are hardly done anymore and posts a lukewarm review as if there is some kind of connection between the two ideas). Frankly I think we are getting to diminishing returns (and for me---boredom)

I blithely believed myself to be in Mr de Mena's killfile. Evidently
not, as he's replied to several of my posts directly.

I heartily wish I was back in it.

[Steve de Mena]

I read the entire first four reviews that Google showed me. None of
them were great. Sorry, that's a fact. Glad you selectively found one
positive review in "Opera", which is not online that I could find.

I said they bore me to tears. What more am I supposed to contribute? I
suspect they bore many to tears. I'm listening right now to a new CD
of Strauss' "Symphonia domestica". It's probably my favorite tone poem
of his. I know many don't care for it and it is often put down. I
accept that. I don't whine and take my ball and go home.

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

So Sir Simon Rattle can criticize G&S, but if he came to RMCR and gave
that same opinion he would be a "troll".

Love the double standards.

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

I didn't throw in "a lukewarm review". I read several lukewarm reviews.

Google: mike leigh pirates of penzance review

Read the first 5 or 6 hits.

Steve

[Gerard]

"Steve de Mena" wrote in message
news:q86dnWrlCOnKPD_I...@giganews.com...

==================

His hair is an advantage.

[Willem Orange]

yeah uh huh we know - the thing is two posters are having a discussion on the relative merits of different sets and you decide, for no reason I can think of, to throw cold water on the discussion by saying how bored you are with them. You don;t even give a reason why you are bored with them other than try to justify the statement with some irrelevancies. Now sure you can post whatever and whenever you want - but the charge of troll like behavior seems to be well deserved in this case. It is a question and hardly a whine - just wondering why did you find it necessary to tell us all you are bored with them - ????? you could have just let it pass (or made it interesting by explaining why) after all when everyone is somebody, then no one's anybody

[Christopher Webber]

On 12/07/2015 18:20, Steve de Mena wrote:
> Read the first 5 or 6 hits.

How tiresome. Your repetitive hate-posts are irrelevant to the
discussion about the merits of Sargent's late G& S recordings (which was
going on pleasantly enough before your trollish intervention) and your
opinions on the matter are utterly without interest. You give no
reasons, only assertions.

You don't like G&S? That's your loss, sir. No amount of mindless
Googling and partial quotations from online reviews of a recent ENO show
will convince anybody that you are "right" in your lack of taste for the
Savoy Operas. ('Opera' reviews don't enter the online Archive until the
following year, which is why you can't see Erica Jeal's yet. Pay for a
copy of the July issue, or subscribe to the magazine if you really want
to read it.)

Better still, can you please kill file me again? Perhaps a Gilbertian
insult from 'Patience' might do the trick ...

"Sing booh to you, pooh-pooh to you!"

[Willem Orange]

I once read that the answers to most of life's problems can be found somewhere in the Savoy opera libretti - could be right!!!!!

[Christopher Webber]

On 13/07/2015 12:21, Willem Orange wrote:
> I once read that the answers to most of life's problems can be found somewhere in the Savoy opera libretti - could be right!!!!!

Gilbert unfailingly provides a good line for nearly everything in the
Human Condition!

[Willem Orange]

"All third parties who on spoiling tete-a-tetes insist" sounds pretty close to home - he's on the list!!!!!

[Christopher Webber]

On 13/07/2015 13:07, Willem Orange wrote:
> "All third parties who on spoiling tete-a-tetes insist" sounds pretty close to home - he's on the list!!!!!

... "clowns of private life" isn't so far off, either. Doubly on the list.

[John Wiser]

"Willem Orange" <ivanm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8ef39a04-e241-4b3c...@googlegroups.com...

This is a public forum, so tete-a-tete doesn't apply.
(I am not defending Steve de Mena's boorishness.)

JDW

[Steve de Mena]

I don't even think you remember what my original post said.

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

On 7/12/15 4:52 PM, Christopher Webber wrote:
> On 12/07/2015 18:20, Steve de Mena wrote:
>> Read the first 5 or 6 hits.
>
> How tiresome. Your repetitive hate-posts are irrelevant to the
> discussion about the merits of Sargent's late G& S recordings (which
> was going on pleasantly enough before your trollish intervention) and
> your opinions on the matter are utterly without interest. You give no
> reasons, only assertions.

Most topics here go WAY off topic with no connection at all to the
subject. I refuse to be singled out for making a single post asking a
question about the current popularity status of G&S. Don't shoot the
messenger.

Steve

[Willem Orange]

What message????

[Terry]

It asked if anybody still listened to G. & S. to-day. They do. Now piss off.

[Al Eisner]

On Sun, 12 Jul 2015, Christopher Webber wrote:

> On 11/07/2015 22:30, Steve de Mena wrote:
>> G&S Live performances are dead too.
>
> Oh really? Well, if you'd been in London last month or this month you could
> see Mike Leigh's new 'Pirates of Penzance' at English National Opera
> (assuming you could beg, borrow or steal a ticket).
>

> And closer to home, if you are in Ohio this month or next you can hear
> 'Ruddigore' and 'Yeomen of the Guard' live, professionally staged by the
> excellent Ohio Light Opera.

In San Francisco, the Lamplighters (I have no idea how they "rate")
is putting on Pinafore this summer, and Ruddigore next winter. They
tend to at last come close to selling out their halls.
--
Al Eisner

[Al Eisner]

On Sun, 12 Jul 2015, Christopher Webber wrote:

> This is addressed to appreciators, not the tabloid trolls:

What, there's nothing in between? How can the we tell if we are meant
to read this? Very disorienting!

> Isn't is curious how, well over 100 years after Sullivan's death, he still
> divides opinion so virulently? This is especially true of the critics, but
> it's also true of musicians: for every Mackerras or John Wilson, who love and
> appreciate his music and are prepared to proselytise for it, there's a Rattle
> who feels quite the contrary.
>
> Remarkably few academics or critics can bring themselves to accept the
> verifiable fact, that the extraordinary revival in the fortunes of home-grown
> British music stems, not from Elgar, but from Sullivan before him. Sullivan
> was an international phenomenon before Elgar was out of short trousers.

Okay by me, since I don't much care for Elgar.

Sullivan was good; too bad he had to work with that buffoon Gilbert. :)
(Just trying an outflanking maneuver.)

> A lot of this comes down to the perennial curse of Opera Snobbery: how can
> anything so commercially successful be good? There's an exclusivity at work
> in the minds of those critics (and RMCR trolls) who cannot bring themselves
> to admit that Sullivan's music is popular, not because it is cheap, but
> because (like all the great composers) he communicates very clearly, and
> built his best music to last.

Seriously, it says something that Sullivan's best known works are always
refered to as "Gilbert and Sullivan", sort of like "Rogers and Hammerstein"
(reversed). You never hear of the operas of "da Ponte and Mozart", or
even "Hofmannsthal and Strauss" or "Wagner and Wagner". Isn't that
part of the difficulty?
--
Al Eisner

[Al Eisner]

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015, Al Eisner wrote:

> Seriously, it says something that Sullivan's best known works are always
> refered to as "Gilbert and Sullivan", sort of like "Rogers and Hammerstein"

Sorry, should be Rodgers, who, like Sullivan, also composed music without
his partners (I shouls have included Rodgers and Hart as well).
--
Al Eisner

[Christopher Webber]

On 15/07/2015 23:28, Al Eisner wrote:
> Seriously, it says something that Sullivan's best known works are always
> refered to as "Gilbert and Sullivan", sort of like "Rogers and Hammerstein"
> (reversed). You never hear of the operas of "da Ponte and Mozart", or
> even "Hofmannsthal and Strauss" or "Wagner and Wagner". Isn't that
> part of the difficulty?

I'd say it was part of the glory. But there we are ... it's perhaps only
a difficulty for those fundamentalists who continue to believe, quite
fallaciously, in "prima la música, dopo le parole"!

The only number in G&S, by the way, where Gilbert supplied words 'post
hoc' to fit pre-written music, is one of the worst in the canon from
both points of view ("There's a little group of isles beyond the waves",
in 'Utopia Ltd.' Mind you, perhaps by rhyming "where it is" with
"rarities", perhaps he was making a point!)

[richard...@gmail.com]

Outflank eh? I enjoy G&S and have since one of my uncles was the tenor lead in many productions of the Castle Bromwich Operatic Society. (I doubt if even google has heard of them, but I haven't looked it up.) I have both DVD and CD sets of the operas (?) as well as LPs of the original 78 recordings.
My response to them evidently differs from yours quite a bit. I can read the libretti and laugh out loud. I sought out Gilbert's Bab Ballads, and if I ever run across other works will probably get them too.
He strikes me as hard to beat in terms of wordplay, and his snider songs are still a propos today. (I am thinking of the career of the Ruler of the Queen's Navy, and the competence of the modern major-general- both seem current today.) I suspect that, given the vote, quite a lot of people would vote to make the punishment fit the crime, and have many similar candidates for the little list. (Mikado).
Clearly, YMMV and does.

[Al Eisner]

Well, if you want to have a private discussion, you could always
use email for it. No reason to put it on rmcr, where others can
participate, and threads drift (although I'm sure you've personally
never been guilty of that).
--
Al Eisner

[Al Eisner]

Clearly you aren't into emoticons.
--
Al Eisner

[Al Eisner]

On Wed, 15 Jul 2015, Christopher Webber wrote:

> On 15/07/2015 23:28, Al Eisner wrote:
>> Seriously, it says something that Sullivan's best known works are always
>> refered to as "Gilbert and Sullivan", sort of like "Rogers and Hammerstein"
>> (reversed). You never hear of the operas of "da Ponte and Mozart", or
>> even "Hofmannsthal and Strauss" or "Wagner and Wagner". Isn't that
>> part of the difficulty?
>
> I'd say it was part of the glory. But there we are ... it's perhaps only a
> difficulty for those fundamentalists who continue to believe, quite
> fallaciously, in "prima la música, dopo le parole"!

By "difficulty" I meant not with the works themselves, but with the
effect on Sullivan's reputation, at least among some. Do you find
that other compositions by Sullivan work as well as the G&S? (I don't
have enough experience of them to have an opinion on this.)
--
Al Eisner

[Willem Orange]

On Wednesday, July 15, 2015 at 6:28:35 PM UTC-4, Al Eisner wrote:

That buffoon Gilbert certainly never wrote a line as awful as "high as an elephants eye". I always thought Hammerstein vastly overrated as a librettist

[Terry]

Now, don't you go blamin' Hammerstein for that. It was Curly who said/sang that.

[Terry]

I think you're right about the effect on Sullivan's reputation. It hasn't been helped by being yoked with his librettist. However, as a Savoyard Tragic, it pains me to have to say that I believe that whilst Sullivan's gifts equip him very well for light operetta where emotions run relatively shallow, they are much less impressive when it comes to more weighty matters where character development in music may be required. I guess I'm thinking of Ivanhoe, where there seems to be an endless supply of gorgeous songs, but from beginning to end, no real character development in music, and no atmospheric musical overlay. By contrast, after one bar of, say, Simon Boccanegra, you are dropped right into the middle of another world.

[Al Eisner]

> That buffoon Gilbert certainly never wrote a line as awful as "high as an elephants eye". I always thought Hammerstein vastly overrated as a librettist

Agreed. Hart was certainly a better lyricist, yet the Rodgers and
Hammerstein productions are better musicals. Hammerstein's instincts
were actually quite good.

By the way, in case it needs to be said (and as I thought I clearly
implied) my line about Gilbert was a joke.
--
Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA

"So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it
enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind
to do." >>> Benjamin Franklin (Autobiography)

[Christopher Webber]

On 16/07/2015 03:22, Terry wrote:
> it pains me to have to say that I believe that whilst Sullivan's gifts equip him very well for light operetta where emotions run relatively shallow, they are much less impressive when it comes to more weighty matters where character development in music may be required. I guess I'm thinking of Ivanhoe, where there seems to be an endless supply of gorgeous songs, but from beginning to end, no real character development in music, and no atmospheric musical overlay. By contrast, after one bar of, say, Simon Boccanegra, you are dropped right into the middle of another world.

You put the classic case for the prosecution very well. But when you say
that "emotions run relatively shallow" in "light opera" I'd have to
disagree. It all depends how you view these works. It's ironic you
choose 'Simon Boccanegra', originally a romantic drama by Guttierez
which is centred (just like his better-known play 'El trovador') on a
baby-swapping plot of precisely the kind Gilbert guyed obsessively.

What Gilbert is doing in guying operas like 'Il Trovatore' and
'Boccanegra', is telling us that there's a world of thought, and of
irony, beyond mere emotionalism. Thought helps us put these things in
their proper perspective, and not to get carried away by cheap
emotionalism There is nothing "light", or intellectually evasive, about
this satirical approach, any more than there is about Shostakovich's
'The Nose' or Messager's 'Veronique'.

Sullivan goes along with that ethos of brain-over-heart. Yet he doesn't
exclude depth of emotion, which is why he and librettist were a perfect
match. I could be moved to tears a week or so ago, for example,
listening to Alexander Young and Edna Graham singing "There was a time"
from 'The Gondoliers'. I defy anyone to define this number as "shallow"
from either a musical or verbal perspective: rather, it is a beautiful
encapsulation of one (tragic) aspect of our human condition: the
inevitability of death, change and entropy. It says much more in two
minutes than Spontini, for example, might say in two hours. Brevity is
the soul of wit, but also the soul of wisdom here. It's actually harder
to write 'Trial by Jury' than it is to spin out a five-act Meyerbeerian
epic.

So Sullivan can "do it": and when it comes to character development in
music, he differentiates Gilbert's interchangeable puppets superbly-
think of Katisha, Jack Point or even Aline (who certainly "learns
something" about love and life in the course of 'The Sorcerer'.) His
command of 'tinta' is notably strong - one of the things later English
composers learnt from him. No two Savoy scores sound quite like one
another, with little touches of harmony, orchestration and melodic cut
to differentiate them. The way he layers 'The Mikado' with flecks of
pentatonic scales, for example, without guilding the score with cheap
orientalism, is masterly.

Of course when Gilbert needs to be given his head (as in the Patter
Songs) Sullivan always allows the words their pre-eminence. These are
balanced music-theatre works, not through-written music dramas. But they
are high art, not "light opera". There is no reason to disparage them as
somehow in a lower league from 'Simon Boccanegra'. They are different,
and run counter to Verdi's approach, that is all.

[ 'Ivanhoe' grows with me on every hearing, by the way. Theatre and
drama are about more than simply "character in action": and in Walter
Scott Ivanhoe, Rowena and the Normans are representative of larger
historical, even tribal movements. That sense is strong in Sullivan's
opera, with its colourful tourneys and forest scenes. Yet with the
characterisation (through music) of The Templar and Rebecca, with their
own, very different harmonic worlds in conflict, I'd say that Sullivan
does much to meet Verdi on his own ground. There's certainly more to the
Templar's aria, Rebecca's "Jehovah, guard me" or their duet dramatically
than mere "gorgeous songs" - which, by the way, they certainly also are! ]

[Willem Orange]

Agree completely - behind the pretty songs are some very serious character developments - and in places one wouldn't expect. For example, Yum Yum has an exquisite aria "The sun whose rays" in Mikado but if you really listen you hear "I mean to rule the earth as he the skys" which shows that this character is no shrinking violet. And Sullivans wonderfully sympathetic music for the contraltos perfectly counterbalances Gilberts sometimes cruel sendups of these figures. The situations and characters are me less serious than in more "grand opera" works BTW I wil take G and S over Spontini ANYTIME

[Christopher Webber]

On 16/07/2015 10:05, Willem Orange wrote:
> For example, Yum Yum has an exquisite aria "The sun whose rays" in Mikado but if you really listen you hear "I mean to rule the earth as he the skys" which shows that this character is no shrinking violet.

... and that she has the knowledge that (now and only now in her life)
the world is at her feet; and she lets us know she means to act upon it,
with the all the power of her youth and beauty.

As you say, it's a touching and surprising number, provided we listen to
the words: at least as much so, I think, as Manon's similarly revealing
first aria, especially in Auber - which is the best Manon opera of all,
in my opinion. The fact that these Manons sing in operas and Yum Yum
"only" in G&S should not hoodwink us into missing the depth of character
here.

"The sun whose rays" is one of the numbers I was thinking of, which uses
pentatonic scales with subtle and exquisite beauty, without any sense of
cod orientalism.

[O]

In article <d0p56b...@mid.individual.net>, Christopher Webber

Well written, Christopher! Bravo!

-Owen (or should I say "Three Cheers!"?)

[Willem Orange]

I must admit thought here are some lines that are just so unexpectedly funny I still laugh out loud e,g, from Pirates

"Fred. Oh, is there not one maiden here

Whose homely face and bad complexion (!!!!!!!!)
Have caused all hopes to disappear
Of ever winning man's affection ?
To such an one, if such there be,

I swear by Heaven's arch above you,
If you will cast your eyes on me --
However plain you be -- I'll love you ! "

[richard...@gmail.com]

Absolutely not! I held back from commenting on very odd punctuation though.

[O]

In article <54a6c695-4922-4701...@googlegroups.com>,

Willem Orange <ivanm...@gmail.com> wrote:


>
> That buffoon Gilbert certainly never wrote a line as awful as "high as an elephants eye". I always thought Hammerstein vastly overrated as a librettist

Hey, I like that line. It's a double entendre, referring to both the
actual corn plants and the how "corny" the local residents are.

-Owen

[Al Eisner]

As you surely know, this aria was set as one of the rather startling
final three scene's of Mike Leigh's "Topsy Turvy", the other two showing
some rather uncomfortable aspects of G's and S's relationships with
women. Partly in light of this, I find it interesting that (at least
in some G&S with which I'm familiar, including certainly Mikado and
Pirates, and probably Pinafore), the young woman, to put it perhaps
too crudely, "takes charge" of the action (and of the men).

Yes, a great aria.
--
Al Eisner

[Terry]

You say that Sullivan layers The Mikado with pentatonic scales. The fact is that in only four numbers does he use that kind of Japanaiserie. Mostly he reverts to his usual idiom, which I will admit to be quite appropriate in this most English of operettas.

You say that no two Savoy scores sound quite like one another, yet it is not all that unusual for directors to lift a song from one opera and use it in another. Mostly, Sullivan's gestures towards atmosphere are pretty perfunctory whent they exist at all: perhaps a sea shanty for Pinafore, but nothing much to evoke Venice, for example.

The fact remains that with one exception, the Sullivan characters remain unchanged from beginning to end of their operas. That duet from Pirates is certainly gorgeous, and as I said before, there is no shortage of gorgeous songs (and duets). It's fascinating that you and Willem choose The Sun Whose Rays as a prime example of character development. If you are correct in assigning deep meaning to the line beginning "I mean to rule the Earth...", then Sullivan is not supporting you. He sets it as a simple, strophic song, with the two stanzas identically harmonised and orchestrated, and no musical observation. If you like that line, you need to thank Gilbert, not Sullivan.

Don't get me wrong -- I love the Savoy operas and have performed in several of them, with great enjoyment (by me, at least!) The OP posed the question "Do you find that other compositions by Sullivan work as well as the G&S?", and I think that the answer is No, mainly because Gilbert's libretti kept him well within his comfort zone as a composer.

(The exception, by the way, is Jack Point.)

[Christopher Webber]

On 17/07/2015 19:16, Al Eisner wrote:
> Partly in light of this, I find it interesting that (at least
> in some G&S with which I'm familiar, including certainly Mikado and
> Pirates, and probably Pinafore), the young woman, to put it perhaps
> too crudely, "takes charge" of the action (and of the men).

I think part of the enduring appeal of G&S is their sexual equality - at
least, in so far as the males are shown as being at least as inadequate
as women!

> Yes, a great aria.

Heartily agreed.

[Willem Orange]

This discussion got me going through the canon again - I'm at Patience and here I think I may prefer the Sargent which has a tremendous swing in the big marching numbers and a very strong cast - OTOH I would miss Kenneth Sanfords inimitable line readings for Godfrey - there is an ironic dry humor to much of what he does which fit the wroks to a tee. Wonderful work.

[Christopher Webber]

On 18/07/2015 02:24, Terry wrote:

> You say that no two Savoy scores sound quite like one another, yet it is not all that unusual for directors to lift a song from one opera and use it in another. Mostly, Sullivan's gestures towards atmosphere are pretty perfunctory whent they exist at all: perhaps a sea shanty for Pinafore, but nothing much to evoke Venice, for example.

I recall that Joseph Papp (where is he now?) inserted the patter trio
from 'Ruddigore' into his 'Pirates' adaptation. He changed the words (as
the original text didn't fit the Papp context) ... yet the piece still
seemed completely out of place! I'm not aware of any other professional
production having done anything of the kind.

I took care to say that the patter songs, for example, are musically
generic. So is most operatic writing. But it doesn't take much, from
skilled musical dramatists such as Verdi or Sullivan, to alter the mood.
Only three or four numbers in 'Simon Boccanegra' have the unique 'tinta'
or musical atmosphere with which Verdi invests his score - it only takes
a few flecks to "layer-in" the special atmospheres, which we'd agree
both composers work in to their scores.

>
> The fact remains that with one exception, the Sullivan characters remain unchanged from beginning to end of their operas. That duet from Pirates is certainly gorgeous, and as I said before, there is no shortage of gorgeous songs (and duets). It's fascinating that you and Willem choose The Sun Whose Rays as a prime example of character development. If you are correct in assigning deep meaning to the line beginning "I mean to rule the Earth...", then Sullivan is not supporting you. He sets it as a simple, strophic song, with the two stanzas identically harmonised and orchestrated, and no musical observation. If you like that line, you need to thank Gilbert, not Sullivan.

Many more than one, of course, as we have seen. But we must not allow
ourselves to repeat that character development is the only way drama is
created (in opera or anywhere else). Satirical drama, in particular,
simply doesn't work that way. And I've talked about how drama works in
an opera such as 'Ivanhoe' - or indeed 'Boris Godunov', another work
which is about historical movements, not character-in-action. Who
"changes" in that work? Not Boris, for sure, who begins his Coronation
scene with "My soul is sad", a self-perception which is amplified but
not changed by his (remarkably few) later appearances. Nor even Dmitri,
who is the same angry, arrogant and slightly gauche character in Poland
and Kromy as he was in Pimen's cell. Pushkin's point, and Mussorgsky's,
is that political *context* can make a static character be differently
perceived: it is a cynical truth about the nature of society.

I'd also question your implication that strophic songs somehow preclude
drama. They are a staple gambit, in straight theatre (Shakespeare) as
much as opera, to provide something much deeper than mere amusement.
Think of Popova's song in 'The Bear', or Mack the Knife in 'The
Threepenny Opera', for starters.

The duet from 'The Gondoliers' which I mentioned is an example of how
Sullivan uses strophic form most subtly: the alteration and
intensification of Casilda's melodic line in the second verse has
enormous impact, by stretching the rule. It's almost overwhelming in
context. I've no problem letting Gilbert share the credit, but by
themselves they're less than half the story.

'The sun whose rays' is well worthy of analysis. The words taken in
isolation are perfectly neat and fine, but it is Sullivan's setting
which makes that line ("I mean to rule the earth...") so unforgettable.
Unusually, this particular strophic song reaches its peak, not in the
customary first or last phrase, but here - in the very centre of the
verse, at "noon" if you like - as Yum Yum is given the two, wide-arching
phrases we all know so well, culminating in the highest note in the
score, the top G on "we really know our *worth*..." This is mirrored in
the 'Moon' verse ("we're very wide *awake*) which franks and emphasises
the 'Sun' climax.

The arch of the phrases, like the over-arching melodic shape of the
whole verse, climaxing at "noon" and with a dying fall, mirrors the
ascent and descent of the heavenly bodies. Strophic it may be, simple it
may not be, dramatic it certainly is. So, I would completely refute the
idea that Sullivan has no part in this: he turns Gilbert's neat words
into a memorable, essentially vocal piece of dramatic art.

This is 'dramma per musica' just as surely as Verdi's (strophic) "ah
fors'è lui" for Violetta.

> Don't get me wrong -- I love the Savoy operas and have performed in several of them, with great enjoyment (by me, at least!) The OP posed the question "Do you find that other compositions by Sullivan work as well as the G&S?", and I think that the answer is No, mainly because Gilbert's libretti kept him well within his comfort zone as a composer.

I'd put it the other way round: Gilbert was the only librettist who took
him *out* of that comfort zone. He responded to the challenge of
Gilbert's much superior quality, and rose to it magnificently. The
others, such as Sturgis, Pinero and Hood, gave "our great composer" too
easy a time, and Sullivan was (alas) a lazy man who needed someone to
push - and even goad him - into giving his best. That's why his works
without Gilbert are not quite at the level of the best Savoy Operas.

[Christopher Webber]

On 18/07/2015 09:12, Willem Orange wrote:
> I would miss Kenneth Sanfords inimitable line readings for Godfrey - there is an ironic dry humor to much of what he does which fit the wroks to a tee. Wonderful work.

One of the minor disappointments of my time as a director, was when Ken
Sandford courteously declined to play Pooh-Bah in the revival of my New
D'Oyly Carte production of 'The Mikado', which was to be prepared and
rehearsed for a run of performances in Los Angeles. He felt that he was
too old to change his way of doing things, and too tired to undergo a
transatlantic trip (this was in about 1990). We were lucky to have John
Ayldon to hand instead - he was a pleasure to work with, and very open
to the "new broom" I was wielding - but how I should have loved to work
with KS, who was my ideal of everything a G&S performer ought to be!

[Christopher Webber]

On 18/07/2015 02:24, Terry wrote:

> Mostly, Sullivan's gestures towards atmosphere are pretty perfunctory whent they exist at all: perhaps a sea shanty for Pinafore, but nothing much to evoke Venice, for example.

I disagree: each one of the Savoy Operas is carefully differentiated in
mood. Without plodding through them all, I have to say that although I
can't find "sea shanties" in Pinafore, there's a persistent flavour of
Dibdin balladry which we won't find elsewhere.

'Iolanthe' and 'Trial by Jury' are characterised by "legalistic" fugues
and bass-heavy textures (following Mendelssohn's 2nd Cello Sonata, I
suppose). The former adds the glamour of the fairy-music (again
Mendelssohnian in spirit) to counteract the official fugues and
fanfares, creating a poised and balanced ambiguity which is in itself
remarkable.

I disagree wholly about 'The Gondoliers', which begins with a
twenty-minute unbroken stream of highly Italianate music - including a
setting in Italian. Some of that sequence is specially Venetian in tone:
"We're called gondolieri" utilises the same gondolier's call (a rising
fourth, on that last word) upon which he based his excellent incidental
music to 'The Merchant of Venice'. Britten uses the same interval
pervasively in 'Death in Venice', too; though I don't say he got the
idea from Sullivan!

When we get to the Cervantian island of Barataria the score turns,
appropriately, to a Spanish model, with the great set-piece of the
Cachucha. Given such details of harmony, scoring, plus well-chosen song
and dance forms, I don't think we can say his atmospheric painting is
"pretty perfunctory": I'd characterise it as clever, allusive and
'multum in parvo'.

[Willem Orange]

Sandford can reduce me to gales of laughter with as little as four words - right after the Cachucha in Act Two of Gondoliers, Don Alhambra makes a sudden appearance asking "Good evening. Fancy ball?" the mixture of surprise and condescension he gives those four words get me every time. There are many other examples of his genius with the text.

[Willem Orange]

I think we can agree there is quite a Japanese "flavor" musically to Mikado.