The Karajan Ring

[Tassilo]

There was a period when, like several close friends of mine and for similar reasons, I despised Karajan and enjoyed quoting Bruno Maderna's dismissive remark about "Karajan's chocolate Beethoven." Of course, our opinion of him was entirely formed on the basis of DG studio recordings from a certain period, and Exhibit A in our brief against him could easily have been what everybody refers to as "The Karajan Ring," Karajan's DG studio recording of the cycle. Since then, I've heard more performances both live and studio from earlier in Karajan's career (e.g., the 1952 Bayreuth Tristan), and I have a more nuanced perception of his abilities. But the performance that really administered the coup de grace to my preconceptions concerning the Karajan of the 1960s was the live Salzburg Siegfried that preceded the DG studio recording, which I was able to hear in less than ideal sound a couple of years ago. I've also heard great bleeding chunks from the Walküre that preceded the DG recording. On the basis of these experiences, I suspect that the real "Karajan Ring" is not what was released on DG -- a recording made in the relaxed and artificial context of the studio, where the conductor himself was complicit in the engineering of a kind of smooth perfection -- but in the extremely interesting and more distinctive live performances that preceded the recording of the installments of the studio Ring. I don't know whether this remark will be intelligible or not, but, in the live performances, you experience the sheer force of Karajan's monomaniacal focus and control as they're being deployed in the thick of battle, whereas in the studio recordings you only hear a byproduct, what the control freak engineered under controlled circumstances.

It is worth remarking that the very consciousness on the part of Karajan and his DG engineers and producers that they were undertaking a cycle in competition with Solti and Decca, a cycle that they intended to be THE Ring that consumers should buy, would have had an equivocal impact on the recordings that were eventually released. On the one hand, convinced of the importance of their undertaking, everyone involved would have aspired to the highest professional standards. On the other hand, the sheer pursuit of the kinds of technical perfection for which Karajan, DG, and the Berlin Philharmonic were famous to the exclusion of other musical virtues would have resulted in a loss of the spontaneity and excitement so infinitely more characteristic of the live performances. (Where the tempi in the studio recordings differ from the tempi in the live performances, the live performances feature quicker tempi.)

All of which is by way of saying that Opera Depot has managed to get its hands on live recordings of the Salzburg Ring in rather better sound than the Siegfried I've got. FWIW, you can listen to about 5 minutes worth of the live Ring here in sound not quite as good as what you'd get on the CD's or downloads if you bought them:

http://operadepot.com/collections/der-ring-des-nibelungen-herbert-von-karajan/products/wagner-der-ring-des-nibelungen-crespin-stewart-dernesch-fischer-dieskau-janowitz-vickers-karajan-salzburg-1967-1970

-Tassilo

[Willem Orange]

David - Karajan did his studio recordings of the Ring before the live performances rather than the usual other way round e.g Rheingold was recorded in December 67 before the Salzburg performance the following April 1968

[Ed Romans]

A lot (all?) of the stuff this company sells was directly taken from uploads posted on the group Operashare. This was the reason that they decided to cull a large fraction of their membership one night.

Ed

[Randy Lane]

The real sadness is the unavailability of the Karajan 1951 Bayreuth Ring that sits in the EMI vaults (now owned by Warner of course).

[Willem Orange]

Well we have the Rheingold, Walkure Act 3 and Siegfried. Also a piece of Walkure Act One has shown up. Would be nice to have the rest to be sure

[Willem Orange]

[Willem Orange]

On Saturday, March 8, 2014 5:49:02 PM UTC-5, Ed Romans wrote:

> A lot (all?) of the stuff this company sells was directly taken from uploads posted on the group Operashare. This was the reason that they decided to cull a large fraction of their membership one night.
>
>
>
> Ed

I'm not so sure Opera Depot was responsible for the culling.

[Tassilo]

> David - Karajan did his studio recordings of the Ring before the live performances rather than the usual other way round e.g Rheingold was recorded in December 67 before the Salzburg performance the following April 1968

I still vastly prefer the live performances, but thank you.

-dg

[Tassilo]

On Saturday, March 8, 2014 5:49:02 PM UTC-5, Ed Romans wrote:

> A lot (all?) of the stuff this company sells was directly taken from uploads posted on the group Operashare. This was the reason that they decided to cull a large fraction of their membership one night.
>
>
>
> Ed

Then we should be grateful to Opera Depot for increasing their availability. The overwhelming majority of us who share live performances do not own the performances.

-dg

[Willem Orange]

As do I -

[Ed Romans]

Sorry I don't follow your logic. Operadepot (and some sister sites) have taken a large number of uploads that people posted for free, passed them off as their own and started selling them. I don't even think they did any audio restoration, they just added some cover art. Wouldn't you be annoyed if someone did that to you?

Ed

[Willem Orange]

On Saturday, March 8, 2014 6:26:35 PM UTC-5, Ed Romans wrote:
> Sorry I don't follow your logic. Operadepot (and some sister sites) have taken a large number of uploads that people posted for free, passed them off as their own and started selling them. I don't even think they did any audio restoration, they just added some cover art. Wouldn't you be annoyed if someone did that to you?
>
>
>
> Ed

My understanding was that some members were using the links and sharing them on other blogs. Once the material is downloaded what happens to it was out of Opera Shares interest - they didn't like that fact that the links to he downloads were being copied without the uploaders permission. But I thought the main reason was that a lot of people were downloading without ever contributing anything. Who knows???

[Ed Romans]

They culled the majority of members, mostly who were non-uploaders as you say. The moderators may not have liked sharing on other sites but I think they were even more concerned when people started selling things and that led to their drastic action (or at least that is the excuse they gave). It may not have been operadepot at the time who were involved but some similarly named sites.

Ed

[William Sommerwerck]

Conductors should assume their recordings -- especially their "studio"
recordings -- are going to determine how they career is viewed 50 years down
the line. If such recordings are of interpretations that are not generally
respected -- whose fault is that?

[wade]

I also would love to hear the Goddammit performance from 1951.

[Tassilo]

On Saturday, March 8, 2014 6:26:35 PM UTC-5, Ed Romans wrote:
> Sorry I don't follow your logic. Operadepot (and some sister sites) have taken a large number of uploads that people posted for free, passed them off as their own and started selling them. I don't even think they did any audio restoration, they just added some cover art. Wouldn't you be annoyed if someone did that to you?

For years I looked for a live recording of a CSO/Barenboim Cosi fan tutte. Somebody finally sold me a copy for about $30 several months ago. It really wasn't his to sell, but I paid for it. Then I immediately turned around and posted it on 2 private newsgroups free of charge. I've shared many a live recording, but I've never sold one to anybody. That being said, I'd rather be able to purchase something from Opera Depot than not be able to get it at all (or not be able to get it because I'm not part of that impossible to join opera sharing list).

Finally, I'm relieved when no so-called "audio restoration" has been inflicted on a recording of a live broadcast.

-dg

[Tassilo]

The psychology of a performer changes drastically in the studio, where a certain kind of a technical perfection is always a principal goal. And the performer listening to edits of his or her recording is not necessarily a good judge of how exciting the performance may be. He or she is listening for mistakes, bad edits, balances, etc. I have recordings of live performances by Bernstein, Ozawa, Boulez, Abbado, and others that immediately preceded studio recordings that I find infinitely more convincing than the studio recordings. Not that I've listened to that many, but I've never heard a studio recording by Maazel that was remotely as effective and convincing as live performances with Maazel of Berio's Sinfonia and the Adagio from Mahler's 10th that I attended or heard on the radio. The same goes for Dohnanyi, whom I heard give spectacular live performances of Berg's Vln Cto and Mahler's 9th.

-dg

-dg

[William Sommerwerck]

"Tassilo" wrote in message
news:8a5bc542-f2cc-4285...@googlegroups.com...

> live performances of Berg's Violin Concerto and Mahler's 9th.

Some years ago I made a demo tape for a local string quartet. At one point I
had to tell them to let go, and stop being so stiff -- we had plenty of tape,
and I could re-record.

/In theory/, a studio performance should be at least as spontaneous as a live
one. But economics rears its ugly head -- too many mistakes means too many
retakes.

I don't know... If a live performance preceded a studio recording... shouldn't
the conductor be able to build on that?

[t]

But the Karajan Salzburg Ring is available online for free, if you look.
I downloaded it all yesterday, along with the Met broadcast of
Walküre, following your enthusiastic recommendation -- for which thanks.

But why didn't you look a little before consigning victims to OperaDepot!

[Willem Orange]

The Opera Depot sound is better

[Oscar]

Re Karajan Salzburg Ring

On Sunday, March 9, 2014 8:15:54 PM, Willem Orange wrote:
>
> The Opera Depot sound is better

I have the original CD issue on Hunt Productions (late 80's/early 90's). Is that the only release on disc of this?

[Willem Orange]

I have that as well and yes it was. I compared the Hunt Rheingold to the Opera Depot version and the sound is definitely superior on the Opera Depot being in nice stereo while the Hunt is somewhat distant mono. Based on the audio samples the rest of the Opera Depot Ring is in mono but it may still be superior to the Hunt - I haven't had a chance to compare yet.

[td]

Were I not convinced that your experience with Boulez and his Mahler, or Bruckner or Strauss or Offenbach (!!!), or whatever, had led you to despise DG as a company, I might be more disposed to credit your comments with a degree of honesty. As it happens, I find your remarks highly suspect.

Live vs Studio? A very old argument. And not restricted to Boulez or Karajan, or DG. Walter Legge drilled the shit out of his artists in his pursuit of a kind of perfection. His wife and her reputation is the shining result, along with hundreds of other recordings largely worshiped by music lovers. I won't bother you with the titles. You know them full well. A very long list of largely perfect representations of a reality nobody is likely to ever hear in the concert hall.

Rachmaninoff very notably refused to allow his live performances to be broadcast. He preferred the result of his many efforts in the studio to represent his best wishes, particularly where his own music was in question. No, the recording process was not perfect, far from perfect, in fact, but what we have is among the most precious documents passed down to future generations.

I guess that Solti is rather lucky. As far as I know, he has no "live" versions of The Ring to throw up against his better judgment as heard in the Decca Ring. Was he, in fact, not prevented from ever conducting at Bayreuth by Karajan himself?

If we, as listeners, are to credit the artist with any integrity whatsoever, we must believe that in the recording studio they endeavour to put their best foot forward, to present their ideal wishes with regard to any score. Karajan had several kicks at the can in the Beethoven symphonies. We can hear them all and compare and contrast. He would probably prefer his last version. That's just human. His Ring cycle as recorded by DG is just such an effort. He didn't get another kick at that can, so we should judge him by what he wished us to judge him by, not by some "live" performance given before an audience who paid for the privilege on one single occasion.

I don't bother listening to The Ring, or any Wagner, as a matter of fact, these days. Too long-winded, and the composer too compromised. And I say that as a great admirer of Franz Liszt, who also admired and helped (and influenced) Richard Wagner. But I have to assume that Karajan (not to mention the DG engineers) knew what he was about when he tackled The Ring. You may prefer some "live" version for or despite its warts, or whatever (and that unimproved by any sonic treatment - I guess you also like to listen to LPs with their clicks and pops and to 78s with the surface noise intact!!!), but I do think you're among a very tiny clique of listeners, and buyers, of Wagner's Ring.

TD

[Willem Orange]

Here you again pulling out some years old grudge against a poster that little to do with that poster actually wrote here which was simply that he preferred Karajans live Ring recording to his studio set. This is true for many conductors whose live work is often better than his studio stuff (Furtwangler). Walter Legge at EMI has nothing to do with it . And if you want to go off on a rant get your facts straight (I know that's almost impossible for you to do but TRY!!!) Solti did indeed conduct a live Ring at Bayreuth for the centenary of Wagner's death in 1983. And Karajan had absolutely zilch to do with Solti or anyone else conducting there. Karajan last conducted at Bayreuth in 1952 . He only conducted there in 1951 and 1952. He had absolutely no connection with Bayreuth after that and there was no love lost between him and the Wagner brothers since Salzburg was a direct competitor to Bayreuth (or so the brothers thought). Always looking for a fight aren't you, pathetic old fool.BTW no one here cares whether you like Wagner or not so stop bringing it up.

[fischer...@gmail.com]

http://www.testament.co.uk/default.aspx?PageID=74

[Oscar]

On Monday, March 10, 2014 7:06:09 AM, td wrote:
>
> I guess that Solti is rather lucky. As far as I know, he has no "live" versions of The Ring to
> throw up against his better judgment as heard in the Decca Ring. Was he, in fact, not
> prevented from ever conducting at Bayreuth by Karajan himself?

Wrong.

Testament SBT4 1495 4CD
Wagner: Die Walküre
Recorded at the Royal Opera House, October 1961
Previously unissued
Solti's first Covent Garden Wagner opera

Siegmund - Jon Vickers
Sieglinde - Claire Watson
Hunding - Michael Langdon
Wotan - Hans Hotter
Brünnhilde - Anita Välkki
Fricka - Rita Gorr
The Walkyries:
Gerhilde - Marie Collier
Ortlinde - Julia Malyon
Waltraute - Margareta Elkins
Schwertleite - Joan Edwards
Helmwige - Judith Pierce
Siegrune - Noreen Berry
Grimgerde - Maureen Guy
Roßweiße - Josephine Veasey

The Covent Garden Opera Chorus & Orchestra
Georg Solti

[Willem Orange]

Solti conducted a complete Ring at Covent Garden in the mid 60s and I think a complete one in the early 60s (I just have the last three parts of that one)

[Willem Orange]

On Monday, March 10, 2014 11:57:19 AM UTC-4, Oscar wrote:

Solti conducted a complete Ring at Covent Garden in the mid 60s and I think a complete one there in the early 60s (I just have the last three parts of that one)

[Lionel Tacchini]

On 10.03.2014 15:06, td wrote:
> Were I not convinced that your experience with Boulez and his Mahler,
> or Bruckner or Strauss or Offenbach (!!!), or whatever, had led you
> to despise DG as a company, I might be more disposed to credit your
> comments with a degree of honesty. As it happens, I find your remarks
> highly suspect.
>
> Live vs Studio? A very old argument. And not restricted to Boulez or
> Karajan, or DG. Walter Legge drilled the shit out of his artists in
> his pursuit of a kind of perfection.

We keep seeing the argument that "live" is more "intense" or "emotional"
as if this were an absolute quality beyond discussion when it is
actually just a matter of taste.

I will postulate that artists who choose more controlled, less effusive
recordings to be issued do not do this necessarily out of blindness
caused by unbalanced focus on perfection but out of choice.
--
Lionel Tacchini

[td]

On Monday, March 10, 2014 10:52:31 AM UTC-4, Willem Orange wrote:
> On Monday, March 10, 2014 10:06:09 AM UTC-4, td wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, March 9, 2014 1:06:11 AM UTC-5, Tassilo wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Saturday, March 8, 2014 7:06:21 PM UTC-5, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Conductors should assume their recordings -- especially their "studio"
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > recordings -- are going to determine how they career is viewed 50 years down
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > the line. If such recordings are of interpretations that are not generally
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > respected -- whose fault is that?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > The psychology of a performer changes drastically in the studio, where a certain kind of a technical perfection is always a principal goal. And the performer listening to edits of his or her recording is not necessarily a good judge of how exciting the performance may be. He or she is listening for mistakes, bad edits, balances, etc. I have recordings of live performances by Bernstein, Ozawa, Boulez, Abbado, and others that immediately preceded studio recordings that I find infinitely more convincing than the studio recordings. Not that I've listened to that many, but I've never heard a studio recording by Maazel that was remotely as effective and convincing as live performances with Maazel of Berio's Sinfonia and the Adagio from Mahler's 10th that I attended or heard on the radio. The same goes for Dohnanyi, whom I heard give spectacular live performances of Berg's Vln Cto and Mahler's 9th.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Were I not convinced that your experience with Boulez and his Mahler, or Bruckner or Strauss or Offenbach (!!!), or whatever, had led you to despise DG as a company, I might be more disposed to credit your comments with a degree of honesty. As it happens, I find your remarks highly suspect.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Live vs Studio? A very old argument. And not restricted to Boulez or Karajan, or DG. Walter Legge drilled the shit out of his artists in his pursuit of a kind of perfection. His wife and her reputation is the shining result, along with hundreds of other recordings largely worshiped by music lovers. I won't bother you with the titles. You know them full well. A very long list of largely perfect representations of a reality nobody is likely to ever hear in the concert hall.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Rachmaninoff very notably refused to allow his live performances to be broadcast. He preferred the result of his many efforts in the studio to represent his best wishes, particularly where his own music was in question. No, the recording process was not perfect, far from perfect, in fact, but what we have is among the most precious documents passed down to future generations.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I guess that Solti is rather lucky. As far as I know, he has no "live" versions of The Ring to throw up against his better judgment as heard in the Decca Ring. Was he, in fact, not prevented from ever conducting at Bayreuth by Karajan himself?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If we, as listeners, are to credit the artist with any integrity whatsoever, we must believe that in the recording studio they endeavour to put their best foot forward, to present their ideal wishes with regard to any score. Karajan had several kicks at the can in the Beethoven symphonies. We can hear them all and compare and contrast. He would probably prefer his last version. That's just human. His Ring cycle as recorded by DG is just such an effort. He didn't get another kick at that can, so we should judge him by what he wished us to judge him by, not by some "live" performance given before an audience who paid for the privilege on one single occasion.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I don't bother listening to The Ring, or any Wagner, as a matter of fact, these days. Too long-winded, and the composer too compromised. And I say that as a great admirer of Franz Liszt, who also admired and helped (and influenced) Richard Wagner. But I have to assume that Karajan (not to mention the DG engineers) knew what he was about when he tackled The Ring. You may prefer some "live" version for or despite its warts, or whatever (and that unimproved by any sonic treatment - I guess you also like to listen to LPs with their clicks and pops and to 78s with the surface noise intact!!!), but I do think you're among a very tiny clique of listeners, and buyers, of Wagner's Ring.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > TD
>
>
>
> Here you again pulling out some years old grudge against a poster that little to do with that poster actually wrote here which was simply that he preferred Karajans live Ring recording to his studio set.

Here you are again pulling out some years old grudge you assume I have against a poster rather than dealing with the post, itself.

Sorry, Dickey, you can't get beyond your little prejudices.

TD

[td]

On Monday, March 10, 2014 11:57:19 AM UTC-4, Oscar wrote:

Nice.

I was, of course, thinking of Bayreuth, the sacred home of Wagner and his blessed Ring.

TD

[Willem Orange]

And you were very very wrong

[td]

On Monday, March 10, 2014 12:10:06 PM UTC-4, Lionel Tacchini wrote:
> On 10.03.2014 15:06, td wrote:
>
> > Were I not convinced that your experience with Boulez and his Mahler,
>
> > or Bruckner or Strauss or Offenbach (!!!), or whatever, had led you
>
> > to despise DG as a company, I might be more disposed to credit your
>
> > comments with a degree of honesty. As it happens, I find your remarks
>
> > highly suspect.
>
> >
>
> > Live vs Studio? A very old argument. And not restricted to Boulez or
>
> > Karajan, or DG. Walter Legge drilled the shit out of his artists in
>
> > his pursuit of a kind of perfection.
>
>
>
> We keep seeing the argument that "live" is more "intense" or "emotional"
>
> as if this were an absolute quality beyond discussion when it is
>
> actually just a matter of taste.

Correct.

> I will postulate that artists who choose more controlled, less effusive
>
> recordings to be issued do not do this necessarily out of blindness
>
> caused by unbalanced focus on perfection but out of choice.

Correct again.

But the second-guessers among posters here would disagree. It is out of incompetence, or DG engineering, or some other weird excuse dreamed up to justify their passion for illegal pirate recordings.

Tiresome.

TD

[Willem Orange]

A laughable assertion

[td]

On Monday, March 10, 2014 12:38:34 PM UTC-4, Willem Orange wrote:

> And you were very very wrong

That Solti conducted the Ring cycle at Bayreuth?

Or that you're a tired old opera queen.

Right on both counts.

TD

[td]

You laugh easily. Mind you, you're a walking talking joke, so I guess that's understandable

TD

[Willem Orange]

Here we see step two of the How to Handle Deacon Procedure-
2. Deacon will whine, complain and call names.
Now we go to step 3 - Ignore him,
and then back to
step 1. which is I will post anything, anywhere and anytime I want.

[td]

Of course you will.

As will I.

The OP has some weird dislike of DG. Poor Pierre Boulez. If only...... His recordings suck because of the engineering. That he made them, approved them, and accepted payment for them is, of course, beside the point. Even that they are widely praised is also irrelevant.

Now the same poster is attacking Karajan's Ring cycle, also on the hated DG.

And what do we get? Claims that recordings (more pirate stuff, of course) exist of his Ring Cycle at Covent Garden. As though this was the subject of the post.

When in doubt, change the subject.

TD

[Oscar]

On Monday, March 10, 2014 9:37:45 AM, td wrote:
>
> I was, of course, thinking of Bayreuth, the sacred home of Wagner and his blessed Ring.

Looking for the 'of course' and 'Bayreuth' moments in this statement.

On Monday, March 10, 2014 7:06:09 AM UTC-7, td wrote:
>
> I guess that Solti is rather lucky. As far as I know, he has no "live" versions of The Ring to throw
> up against his better judgment as heard in the Decca Ring.

<end>

[td]

On Monday, March 10, 2014 1:02:30 PM UTC-4, Oscar wrote:
> On Monday, March 10, 2014 9:37:45 AM, td wrote:
>
> >
>
> > I was, of course, thinking of Bayreuth, the sacred home of Wagner and his blessed Ring.
>
>
>
> Looking for the 'of course' and 'Bayreuth' moments in this statement.
>
>
>
> On Monday, March 10, 2014 7:06:09 AM UTC-7, td wrote:
>
> >
>

> > I guess that Solti is rather lucky. AS FAR AS I KNOW, he has no "live" versions of The Ring to throw

>
> > up against his better judgment as heard in the Decca Ring.

What about "as far as I know" did you not understand?

I do apologize for not making my "thinking" clearer for the slow and witless among us, not to mention those who cannot read.

[t]

On 3.9.14, 23:15, Willem Orange wrote:

>
> The Opera Depot sound is better
>

Better than what? The sounds I downloaded for free are wonderful stereo
(except Rheingold in mono).

[Willem Orange]

Wrong again - other posters referenced the Testament issue of the Covent Garden Walkure = this is not a pirate issue at all but licensed from Covent garden. Do try to get at least one fact right, as far as you know!!!!

[Willem Orange]

That doesn't excuse the fact that you were wrong, does it???

[Willem Orange]

Well then you should get the Opera Depot Rheingold which is in stereo, shouldn't you???

[td]

So, one out of four was not pirate. And the other 75%?

TD

[Willem Orange]

That was the only one referenced - you really shouldn't be so plemmatic

[Dontait...@aol.com]

On Monday, March 10, 2014 9:52:31 AM UTC-5, Willem Orange wrote:

[major editing]

Solti did indeed conduct a live Ring at Bayreuth for the centenary of Wagner's death in 1983. And Karajan had absolutely zilch to do with Solti or anyone else conducting there. Karajan last conducted at Bayreuth in 1952 . He only conducted there in 1951 and 1952. He had absolutely no connection with Bayreuth after that and there was no love lost between him and the Wagner brothers since Salzburg was a direct competitor to Bayreuth (or so the brothers thought).

[another edit]

I well remember the excitement generated by the news that Solti was to conduct the Ring at Bayreuth in 1983. It was major news. It also was the early period of international satellite broadcasting, and WFMT in Chicago arranged to broadcast performances of the four works live. It was during my 35+ years at WFMT, and our program director, Norman Pellegrini, and some station engineers travelled to Bayreuth to collaborate with the German radio staff. WFMT made the broadcasts available to many stations; I remember that there was a big response. Additionally, we at WFMT were told that Decca was enthusiastic about the possibility of getting a digitally-recorded remake of a Solti Ring. But in the end, nothing could be released.

Those who have read Solti's Memoirs will recall his account of the episode (pages 176-8). He wrote that what what should have been "a particularly gratifying experience" for him "in the end caused me endless suffering." The singers, he wrote, while in some cases very good, were not equal to those with whom he had earlier recorded the Ring in Vienna. The Bayreuth orchestra, he wrote, by 1983 "had become decidedly second-class." (It was an ad hoc ensemble, newly hired every year.) Something he does not mention, but that my WFMT colleagues did when they got home, was that the weather in Bayreuth was extraordinarily hot. Inside the un-air conditioned Festspielhaus, they said, conditions were almost unbearable. They also said that conducting the Ring in such a situation took a major physical toll upon Solti, who as always gave all of himself to the task. (I was with him up close a few months later and he looked ten years older than he had before Bayreuth.)

A sad tale about what might have been, especially for Solti; but as he wrote, in the end the singers just weren't good enough. Nothing could be approved for commercial release. One detail I found interesting: ad hoc orchestra or not, and new to Solti, the Bayreuth brass produced exactly the same sound the CSO and other orchestras' brass did for him: for me, blaring and toneless. (It was the same sound he got from the CSO brass at his first Orchestra Hall concert with them in the 1965/66 season, and ever after.)

Since WFMT and affiliates broadcast the 1983 Solti Bayreuth Ring, I'd think there must be recordings of it around.

Don Tait

[Willem Orange]

Well there was a lot more to the problems in Bayreuth that year and that had to do with the Peter Hall production itself. In Spott's Bayreuth book he seems to blame Hall for the problems (e.g.Behrens had to hang upside down for a long period in the third Act of Siegfried before the duet), others seem to blame the Festspielhaus organization, in other words it was a mess. There were some striking moments (in the first scene of Rheingold, the Rheindaughters did look they were swimming vertically up and down the stage by means of a large reflective mirror) but the whole thing seemed to lose steam and had a rather dispiriting and futile feeling by the end. The singers were certainly better than what we have today - I think the whole thing is on you tube). And I frankly don't think Solti was physically up the rigors of the Bayreuth pit - yes its hot but you can strip down to your underwear if you want to since it's hidden - but it is an arduous job and I'm not sure he knew what he was getting himself into. Shame considering all the hoopla.

[td]

On Monday, March 10, 2014 3:54:17 PM UTC-4, Dontait...@aol.com wrote:

Indeed, a sad tale.

I stand corrected, Don. Bayreuth did hire Solti to do the Ring 20 years after he recorded it.

You say "And Karajan had absolutely zilch to do with Solti or anyone else conducting there."

I wish I could believe you, Don. One would like to believe you. But I don't believe in the tooth fairy. Karajan was extremely jealous of all his colleagues. Solti was one of them. And Mr. Karajan was the unofficial intendant of music in Europe for a very long time. Do you really think that he didn't have the Wagner family's ear? Really?

Incidentally, memoirs are notoriously full of wish fulfillment and rosy views of things. I mistrust them, too, although I find them fascinating.

TD

[Willem Orange]

Once again your ignorance of all things Wagnerian shows itself - you have gotten into your think skull that Karajan controlled all that was going on in Europe. Well those who know MUCH more about the situation than you do know that Karajan left Bayreuth in 1952 and had nothing to do with Bayreuth after. There were personal and professional differences between Wieland and Fluffy (who lied to Wieland when he told him in 1952 he would never conduct Wagner outside Bayreuth). Karajan had no say about who conducted or who sang - those decisions for better or worse were up to the Wieland and then Wolfgang - a person notorious for holding grudges even worse than you and to think he would have cow-towed to Fluffy is frankly hysterical. BTW this is isn't for you - you are hopeless. But it is for other interested in the subject.

[td]

Proof, please.

TD

[Willem Orange]

You only sound like a fool when you post that - not worth answering.

[td]

In other words, you have none. Pure gossip, as I suspected.

You're like a soufflé that just hit a cold draft, Dickey. Nothing stands up to scrutiny. Nothing at all. You actually believe that intermission gossip among opera queens constitutes fact.

What a fool!

TD

[Willem Orange]

Back to the name calling - oh well if you insist - Wolfgang Wagner in his autobiography has quite a few pages about the rift between Karajan and Bayreuth mainly because Karajan and Legge though they could march in in 1951 and give orders. When they figured out it wasn't gonna happen Karajan left for good in 1952 - both brothers esp. Wieland were astute enough to realize that Karajan, regardless of what he had said regarding never conducting the Ring anywhere else in fact had Salzburg in his sites as direct competition to Bayreuth. When Legge and Karajan realized they had absolutely no say in the picking of artists at the Festival along with the contretemps Karajan had with some of the artsist esp Ramon Vinay and, hilariously Hans Knappertsbusch they left. Karajan was pig headed and had to learn the hard way that he had no say and some of his decisions were frankly anti-musical. He decided to change the way the orchestra members sat in the pit which played havoc with the sound coming out to the audience - only at the last minute did he agree that he had blown it. With the Wagner brothers once you crossed them you were out (this even applied to members of their own families) so to think that in 1983 Karajan had the slightest say on what happened at Bayreuth is absurd. Now I have just given material form Wolfgang himself - now you give me one iota of evidence that Karajan did have any say - something concrete not some general bullshit. Anything?????? crickets??????

[Willem Orange]

While we are on the subject and just as matter of interest I was wondering what control Karajan had over the artistic choices at Covent Garden. Any?? perhaps one of our British friends could provide some input

[Paul Goodman]

I really don't understand why your posts have all the excess space in
them between comments. It would really be helpful if both of you could
edit that out so your contributions are actually readable.

--
Paul Goodman

[Willem Orange]

My posts?????

[Gerard]

"Willem Orange" wrote in message
news:c1c9a492-1f16-4039...@googlegroups.com...

On Monday, March 10, 2014 11:14:20 PM UTC-4, Paul Goodman wrote:

[............]

>
>
> I really don't understand why your posts have all the excess space in
>
> them between comments. It would really be helpful if both of you could
>
> edit that out so your contributions are actually readable.
>
>

My posts?????

===========================

Yes, YOUR posts.
The previous one was 26KB, for only 2 sentences.

[Willem Orange]

Whiner.

[td]

Thank you, but no thanks.

Self-serving autobiography doesn't cut much mustard, I am afraid. Specially by a WAGNER!!! Duplicitous bastards each and every one of them, including the founder of the clan.

Stop worshipping at that altar and grow up.

TD

[td]

On Monday, March 10, 2014 11:14:20 PM UTC-4, Paul Goodman wrote:

Something to do with interfaces, I think.

I know nothing about it, but it seems there is a conflict between those who use a newsreader and those of us - me - who use Google Groups, which owns this fucking shindig.

TD

[td]

Get your skirts hemmed, Dickey.

TD

[Willem Orange]

Of course not - you intimated that Karajan was involved in Solti never conducting at Bayreuth, you have nothing to verify or validate it and when called out on it you get all defensive and want everyone else to prove a negative (that Karajan was not involved - you made the allegation so its you who has to substantiate it) - a childish ploy you use frequently and which fools no one here. But we sure gave you a lot if information that shows that he had nothing to do with it. Where"s your proof????? None - of course you have none. You're in your 70s ACT LIKE IT and stop acting like a childish brat!!!!!!!!!!

[td]

It's just gossip, like everything you spew.

TD

[Willem Orange]

As is yours.

[td]

Please either trim your posts or treat your diarrhea with Keopectate.

TD

[William Sommerwerck]

"Willem Orange" wrote in message

news:f151fcf0-f934-49d4...@googlegroups.com...

> Whiner.

Aren't you aware that your e-mail software is adding these unneeded lines?
It's really annoying.

[Terry]

In article <2014031023142047841-goodmanp@comcastnet>, Paul Goodman

Be careful what you wish for!

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, March 8, 2014 at 1:18:06 PM UTC-8, Tassilo wrote:
> There was a period when, like several close friends of mine and for similar reasons, I despised Karajan and enjoyed quoting Bruno Maderna's dismissive remark about "Karajan's chocolate Beethoven." Of course, our opinion of him was entirely formed on the basis of DG studio recordings from a certain period, and Exhibit A in our brief against him could easily have been what everybody refers to as "The Karajan Ring," Karajan's DG studio recording of the cycle. Since then, I've heard more performances both live and studio from earlier in Karajan's career (e.g., the 1952 Bayreuth Tristan), and I have a more nuanced perception of his abilities. But the performance that really administered the coup de grace to my preconceptions concerning the Karajan of the 1960s was the live Salzburg Siegfried that preceded the DG studio recording, which I was able to hear in less than ideal sound a couple of years ago. I've also heard great bleeding chunks from the Walküre that preceded the DG recording. On the basis of these experiences, I suspect that the real "Karajan Ring" is not what was released on DG -- a recording made in the relaxed and artificial context of the studio, where the conductor himself was complicit in the engineering of a kind of smooth perfection -- but in the extremely interesting and more distinctive live performances that preceded the recording of the installments of the studio Ring. I don't know whether this remark will be intelligible or not, but, in the live performances, you experience the sheer force of Karajan's monomaniacal focus and control as they're being deployed in the thick of battle, whereas in the studio recordings you only hear a byproduct, what the control freak engineered under controlled circumstances.
>
> It is worth remarking that the very consciousness on the part of Karajan and his DG engineers and producers that they were undertaking a cycle in competition with Solti and Decca, a cycle that they intended to be THE Ring that consumers should buy, would have had an equivocal impact on the recordings that were eventually released. On the one hand, convinced of the importance of their undertaking, everyone involved would have aspired to the highest professional standards. On the other hand, the sheer pursuit of the kinds of technical perfection for which Karajan, DG, and the Berlin Philharmonic were famous to the exclusion of other musical virtues would have resulted in a loss of the spontaneity and excitement so infinitely more characteristic of the live performances. (Where the tempi in the studio recordings differ from the tempi in the live performances, the live performances feature quicker tempi.)
>
> All of which is by way of saying that Opera Depot has managed to get its hands on live recordings of the Salzburg Ring in rather better sound than the Siegfried I've got. FWIW, you can listen to about 5 minutes worth of the live Ring here in sound not quite as good as what you'd get on the CD's or downloads if you bought them:
>
> http://operadepot.com/collections/der-ring-des-nibelungen-herbert-von-karajan/products/wagner-der-ring-des-nibelungen-crespin-stewart-dernesch-fischer-dieskau-janowitz-vickers-karajan-salzburg-1967-1970
>
> -Tassilo

https://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/karajan-ring-reviews