Czerny's metronome markings for Mozart; a request
Andrew Stedman
of Mozart's symponies, string quartets, and string quintets to Czerny's and
Hummel's tempo markings. Some of the markings are surprising fast: in
particular, dotted half-note = 88 for the Menuetto Allegretto of K. 551,
which seems to me too fast; it sounds better to me at dotted half-note =
74. I now think that my old mchanical metronome is wrongly
calibrated: that my metronome's 74 might really be about 84! I would
appreciate it if someone could check two tempos for me.
A review in _Early Music_ of Brueggen's recording of Haydn's Sturm und
Drang symphonies has two tempo markings that my metronome and I disagree
with: the adagio of symphony 45 at eighth-note = 120 and the minuet of
the same symphony at quarter-note = 160. My metronome gives 108 for the
adagio and 150 for the minuet.
Has anyone else in this newsgroup experimented with the old tempo
markings? If they are valid--and there are strong arguments for
them--typical performances of many minuets (such as the Brueggen example)
are only 2/3 the speed they should be (dotted half-note = 80 or so).
Daniel
Aaron Z. Snyder
Andrew Stedman <aste...@uoguelph.ca> wrote in message
news:80apn8$iu6$1...@testinfo.cs.uoguelph.ca...
> Has anyone else in this newsgroup experimented with the old tempo
> markings? If they are valid--and there are strong arguments for
> them--typical performances of many minuets (such as the Brueggen example)
> are only 2/3 the speed they should be (dotted half-note = 80 or so).
Yes! I applied the Czerny markings to a MIDI simulation of the Haydn 104.
The menuetto is a little breathless, but it really swings and most certainly
doesn't lumber along as we're used to hearing it.The late musicologist
William Malloch was a great proponent of Czerny's markings, and once proudly
played for me a recording of a piano transcription of one of the Haydn
symphony menuetto/trios (I can't remember which one) done at the Czerny
tempo. It was marvelous, and the pianists 9they were students of his)
sounded like they were having a ball!
IMO, this is the way to do this music. I really can't stand to listen to
dancing elephants!
--
Aaron Z. Snyder
Chestnut Hill, MA, USA
Andrew Stedman
: Yes! I applied the Czerny markings to a MIDI simulation of the Haydn 104.
: The menuetto is a little breathless, but it really swings and most certainly
: doesn't lumber along as we're used to hearing it.The late musicologist
: William Malloch was a great proponent of Czerny's markings, and once proudly
: played for me a recording of a piano transcription of one of the Haydn
: symphony menuetto/trios (I can't remember which one) done at the Czerny
: tempo. It was marvelous, and the pianists 9they were students of his)
: sounded like they were having a ball!
Just the day before yesterday I read two of Malloch's articles on the
subject (the two that were published in _Early Music_). They're
convincing. I have only read one attempt at refuting his arguments,
Neumann's in _Historical Performance_, and it was weak; Neumann argued
largely from (his) taste. Have you (or has anyone else reading this) read
any other articles on the subject?
Daniel
Johannes Roehl
> I have been amusing myself by speeding up recordings of some movements
> of Mozart's symponies, string quartets, and string quintets to Czerny's and
> Hummel's tempo markings. Some of the markings are surprising fast: in
> particular, dotted half-note = 88 for the Menuetto Allegretto of K. 551,
> which seems to me too fast; it sounds better to me at dotted half-note =
> 74. I now think that my old mchanical metronome is wrongly
they are both very fast, Harnoncourt for example does not play ist faster
than 50 for the bar (but he is quite fast in K 550)
> calibrated: that my metronome's 74 might really be about 84! I would
> appreciate it if someone could check two tempos for me.
>
> A review in _Early Music_ of Brueggen's recording of Haydn's Sturm und
> Drang symphonies has two tempo markings that my metronome and I disagree
> with: the adagio of symphony 45 at eighth-note = 120 and the minuet of
> the same symphony at quarter-note = 160. My metronome gives 108 for the
> adagio and 150 for the minuet.
> Has anyone else in this newsgroup experimented with the old tempo
> markings? If they are valid--and there are strong arguments for
> them--typical performances of many minuets (such as the Brueggen example)
> are only 2/3 the speed they should be (dotted half-note = 80 or so).
where did you get the markings by Hummel and Czerny from ?
(there must be also some for the Beethoven sonatas)
This issue hs been debated many times concerning Beethovens own markings
for his symphonies and most of the quartets...and it seems that his fast
markings are consistent with the contemporaries.
Johannes
--
Die Musik weckt die Zeit, sie weckt uns zum feinsten Genusse der Zeit, sie
weckt...insofern ist sie sittlich. Die Kunst ist sittlich, sofern sie
weckt.
Aber wie, wenn sie das Gegenteil tut ?
Simon Roberts
[snip]
: A review in _Early Music_ of Brueggen's recording of Haydn's Sturm und
: Drang symphonies has two tempo markings that my metronome and I disagree
: with: the adagio of symphony 45 at eighth-note = 120 and the minuet of
: the same symphony at quarter-note = 160. My metronome gives 108 for the
: adagio and 150 for the minuet.
I don't understand your last sentence -- based on what? More generally,
I'm wondering how valuable Czerny's statements, written more than thirty
years after the music was first written and performed (I'm talking only
about the Sturm und Drang syms, sym 45 having been written in 1772), are
with regard to telling us how fast it should be performed.
Simon (who, regardless of the evidence, much prefers fast minuets)
Andrew Stedman
: [snip]
: : A review in _Early Music_ of Brueggen's recording of Haydn's Sturm und
: : Drang symphonies has two tempo markings that my metronome and I disagree
: : with: the adagio of symphony 45 at eighth-note = 120 and the minuet of
: : the same symphony at quarter-note = 160. My metronome gives 108 for the
: : adagio and 150 for the minuet.
: I don't understand your last sentence -- based on what? More generally,
The reviewer checked Brueggen's tempi in the adagio and minuet and
measured them to be eighth-note = M.M. 120 and quarter-note = M.M. 160,
respectively. When I gauge the movements using my (inaccurate?)
metronome, I measure eighth-note = M.M. 108 and quarter-note = M.M. 150,
respectively. So I wonder whether my metronome is miscalibrated or
simply broken.
: I'm wondering how valuable Czerny's statements, written more than thirty
: years after the music was first written and performed (I'm talking only
: about the Sturm und Drang syms, sym 45 having been written in 1772), are
: with regard to telling us how fast it should be performed.
That is the big question. In fact, Czerny's (virtually identical to
Hummel's) were written much more than thirty years after symphony 45 was
written--something like fifty years later; I'll check this afternoon.
There is some other evidence, much earlier to the time, that suggests
Czerny's tempos are in line.
Daniel
Andrew Stedman
: where did you get the markings by Hummel and Czerny from ?
: (there must be also some for the Beethoven sonatas)
From William Malloch's articles in _Early Music_ (1988 and 1993). I'll
post the markings to the group--and yes, there are markings for most of
the Beethoven sonatas.
: This issue hs been debated many times concerning Beethovens own markings
: for his symphonies and most of the quartets...and it seems that his fast
: markings are consistent with the contemporaries.
Yes, they seem to be. It may be that mine was really the only broken
metronome.
Daniel
Aaron Z. Snyder
> Just the day before yesterday I read two of Malloch's articles on the
> subject (the two that were published in _Early Music_). They're
> convincing. I have only read one attempt at refuting his arguments,
> Neumann's in _Historical Performance_, and it was weak; Neumann argued
> largely from (his) taste. Have you (or has anyone else reading this) read
> any other articles on the subject?
There was Malloch's initial article in the long-defunct "Opus" magazine,
followed by his two "Early Music" articles and (I think) a third one
responding (again I think -- I've mislaid my copy of the article) to
Neumann's argument. Malloch's writings, as well as occasional personal
intervention, have influenced a lot of current-day performances of
classical-era symphonies.
My first exposure (at age 8) to Haydn's 94th was via the Toscanini/NBC
recording, in which he takes the "allegro molto" marking for the menuetto at
its word. Sometime later, I was shocked to hear how Beecham (and, it turned
out, just about everybody else) took this movement. The image of "dancing
elephants" came to mind. Toscanini IMO had it right, although I would guess
not due to any academic reasons.
Johannes Roehl
> Andrew Stedman (aste...@uoguelph.ca) wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> : A review in _Early Music_ of Brueggen's recording of Haydn's Sturm und
> : Drang symphonies has two tempo markings that my metronome and I disagree
> : with: the adagio of symphony 45 at eighth-note = 120 and the minuet of
> : the same symphony at quarter-note = 160. My metronome gives 108 for the
> : adagio and 150 for the minuet.
>
> I don't understand your last sentence -- based on what? More generally,
> years after the music was first written and performed (I'm talking only
> about the Sturm und Drang syms, sym 45 having been written in 1772), are
in this case it´s more like 50 years afterwards. I do not really think
that articulated 16th notes can be played when whole bars (dotted half
notes) are M.M. = 88. IIRC the movements of this type (allegretto in 3/4,
counted in whole bars, like for example op. 59,2,iii or many pieces in
earlier piano sonatas) are marked by Beethoven with tempos ranging from 60
to 69 (which is like a fast laendler or viennese waltz), so I can hardly
believe a Mozart or Haydn Menuetto allegretto was
supposed to be faster than that...
> with regard to telling us how fast it should be performed.
>
> Simon (who, regardless of the evidence, much prefers fast minuets)
Unfortunately I do not know where to get information about the tempi
(Czerny etc.), but from the recordings I know there seem to be two types
of menuets (or even three, if you count a really slow one like the last
Diabelli variation): one with moderately fast (120) to fast (160)
*quarter* notes and one with moderate (60 to 70) whole bars.
One example (because here I checked with the score some time ago)
In Harnoncourts first recording of K 550 the Menuet is taken at (roughly)
70 bars a minute (the trio much slower), but in K 551 at about 130 for the
quarter notes (I still could have counted wrong); this is no way
representative, but again, the "traditional" menuetto in Beethovens 8th is
marked 126 for the quarter note, which is roughly the moderate tempo.
I also noted that Haydns Menuets are sometimes without further tempo
indication, sometimes marked "moderato", "allegretto" or even "allegro",
so there were probably several "types" of menuets...
Jeremy Dimmick
faster than we used to think, what was Beethoven implying when he started
using the term 'Scherzo' instead? Is it not a matter of the latter being
faster at all, but simply a matter of mood and an indication of the greater
distance the movement had travelled from 'danceability'?
JD
Andrew Stedman
: Layman's question: if minuets were always (or at least often) a good deal
I haven't studied this, but I conjecture: character, form. Note that
Haydn used the title "scherzo" for the minuets in his Opus 33 string
quartets from around 1780. Haydn also wrote very fast minuets (marked
presto or faster) before Beethoven did.
Daniel
Andrew Stedman
the Mozart G-Minor symphony K. 551 from its original speed of dotted
half-note = ca. 59 to Hummel's speed of dotted half-note = ca. 76 (all
these marks assume my old metronome is accurate). The effect is
remarkable: the minuet has such verve and dash, though it is no longer
allegretto (Hummel marked the movement Allegro in his edition); and the
trio (at about dotted half-note = 71) abandons its slight limpness and
becomes a spirited pastoral dance: I never really liked it until I heard
it this way. I don't understand how conductors such as Harnoncourt
justify taking a noticeably slower speed for the trio. I think an ideal
performance (for me) would take the minuet at about dotted half-note = 66
(allegretto) with an increase to 71 for the trio, which is slower-moving.
I plan to do many experiments with adjusting the tempo of recordings
(without affecting the pitch) over the next month or two. It has long
irked me that there are many otherwise excellent recordings that are
marred by (what seems to me to be) poor choices of tempo: adagios,
andantes, and minuets all much too slow. What few experiments I have done
so far indicate that many recordings (especially Brueggen's--notoriously
sluggish but elastic) bear drastic increases in speed with no stiffness or
woodenness in the result. I have several dozen discs to do: it will be a
fascinating project!
-------------------------
Czerny's tempo markings for the Hadyn's London Symphonies (taken from:
Malloch, William. "Carl Czerny's metronome marks for Haydn and Mozart
symphonies". _Early Music_. 1988.)
e = eighth-note; q = quarter-note; h = half-note; w =
whole-note; C/ = alla breve
Original source for the markings: Czerny's arrangements for piano of
Haydn's "Salomon" symphonies (Kistner: Leipzig, ca. 1845; Cocks:
London, no date). If Haydn's tempo marking differs from Czerny's, Haydn's
is placed in parentheses after Czerny's.
93.
3/4 Adagio: e = 112
3/4 Allegro assai: h. = 69
C Largo cantabile (Haydn C/): q = 76
3/4 Menuetto. Allegreto (Menuetto. Allegro): h. = 72
2/4 Finale. Presto ma non troppo: h = 84
94.
3/4 Adagio cantabile (Adagio): e = 96
6/8 Vivace assai: q. = 104
2/4 Andante: q = 63
3/4 Menuetto. Allegro molto (Menuet. Allegro molto): h. = 92
2/4 Allegro molto (Finale. Allegro di molto): h = 72
95.
C Allegro (C/ Allegro moderato): h = 96
6/8 Andante cantabile (Andante): e = 104
3/4 Menuetto (Menuet): h. = 80
C/ Finale. Vivace: h = 132
96.
3/4 Adagio: e = 100
3/4 Allegro: q = 138
6/8 Andante: e = 116
3/4 Menuetto. Allegretto: h. = 66
2/4 Finale. Vivace (Finale. Vivace assai): h = 80
97.
3/4 Adagio: e = 96
3/4 Allegro vivace: h. = 63
C Adagio non troppo (C/ Adagio ma non troppo): q = 112
3/4 Menuetto. Allegretto: h. = 69
2/4 Finale. Allegro assai (Finale. Presto assai): h = 80
98.
C/ Adagio: q = 88
C/ Allegro: h = 112
3/4 Adagio cantabile: e = 108
3/4 Menuetto. Allegro (Menuet. Allegro): h. = 84
6/8 Finale. Presto piu Moderato: h. = 66; q. = 126
99.
C/ Adagio: e = 96
C Vivace assai: h = 100
3/4 Adagio cantabile: e = 108
3/4 Menuetto. Allegro (Menuet. Allegretto): h. = 96 [sic!]
2/4 Finale. Vivace: h = 76
100.
C Adagio (C/ Adagio): e = 108
C/ Allegro: h = 116
C/ Allegretto: h = 80
3/4 Menuetto. Moderato (Menuet. Moderato): h. = 66
6/8 Finale. Presto: h. = 72
101.
3/4 Adagio: e = 108
6/8 Presto: q. = 120
2/4 Andante: e = 116
3/4 Minuetto. Allegretto (Menuet. Allegretto): h. = 76
C/ Vivace (Finale. Vivace): h = 132
102.
C Largo (C/ Largo): e = 108
C Allegro vivace (C/ Vivace): h = 126
3/4 Adagio: e = 96
3/4 Menuetto. Allegretto (Menuet. Allegro): h[.] = 76
2/4 Presto (Finale. Presto): h = 84
103.
3/4 Adagio: q = 69
6/8 Allegro con spirito: q. = 96
2/4 Andantino (Andante piu toso Allegretto): q = 66
3/4 Menuetto (Menuet): h. = 72
C/ Finale. Allegro con spirito: h = 144
104.
C Adagio: e = 104
C/ Allegro: h = 112
2/4 Andante: e = 116
3/4 Menuetto. Allegretto: h. = 80
C Finale. Spiritoso: h = 144
More will follow (markings for 18 of Mozart's symphonies, some string
quartets and quintets; markings for most of the Beethoven piano sonatas)
as I have time to enter them.
Daniel
Johannes Roehl
> I just tried adjusting the Menuetto from Brueggen's second recording of
> the Mozart G-Minor symphony K. 551 from its original speed of dotted
> half-note = ca. 59 to Hummel's speed of dotted half-note = ca. 76 (all
> these marks assume my old metronome is accurate). The effect is
> remarkable: the minuet has such verve and dash, though it is no longer
> allegretto (Hummel marked the movement Allegro in his edition); and the
> trio (at about dotted half-note = 71) abandons its slight limpness and
> becomes a spirited pastoral dance: I never really liked it until I heard
> it this way. I don't understand how conductors such as Harnoncourt
> justify taking a noticeably slower speed for the trio. I think an ideal
I think Harnoncourts is quite impressive, but I do not know how he
justifies taking the trio at 2/3 the speed of the menuetto.
thanks for posting the metronome markings, this must have been a lot of
work...
Simon Roberts
: I haven't studied this, but I conjecture: character, form. Note that
: Haydn used the title "scherzo" for the minuets in his Opus 33 string
: quartets from around 1780. Haydn also wrote very fast minuets (marked
: presto or faster) before Beethoven did.
Right. This was rather amusingly, because unintentionally, brought out by
Karl Haas on one of his radio talks c. 15 years ago. He was trying to
show how Beethoven had revolutionized the symphony, in part by replacing
minuets with scherzi, doing so as early as his first symphony (even
though it's still called "menuetto"). Just compare, he said, this Haydn
minuet with the "minuet" in Beethoven 1; whereupon he played a fairly
lively recording of one of Haydn's faster "minuets" (104, perhaps; I can't
remember) followed by one of the dullest, slowest Beethoven 1 minuets ever
recorded, thereby killing his point stone dead....
Simon
Simon Roberts
: I just tried adjusting the Menuetto from Brueggen's second recording of
: the Mozart G-Minor symphony K. 551 from its original speed of dotted
: half-note = ca. 59 to Hummel's speed of dotted half-note = ca. 76 (all
: these marks assume my old metronome is accurate). The effect is
: remarkable: the minuet has such verve and dash, though it is no longer
: allegretto (Hummel marked the movement Allegro in his edition);
But since Mozart marked it "allegretto"....
[snip]
: I plan to do many experiments with adjusting the tempo of recordings
: (without affecting the pitch) over the next month or two. It has long
: irked me that there are many otherwise excellent recordings that are
: marred by (what seems to me to be) poor choices of tempo: adagios,
: andantes, and minuets all much too slow. What few experiments I have done
: so far indicate that many recordings (especially Brueggen's--notoriously
: sluggish but elastic) bear drastic increases in speed with no stiffness or
: woodenness in the result. I have several dozen discs to do: it will be a
: fascinating project!
Which Brueggen tempi and do you find "sluggish" (let alone "notorious")?
Perhaps you mean Eroica i and Beethoven 1/i (though I can't say
"sluggish" is a word I would use). To stay with Mozart 40, note that his
remake is a bit faster, certainly more aggressive, and has a minuet that's
23 seconds quicker (perhaps not enough for your taste).
Simon
Thomas J. Wood
Andrew Stedman wrote:
>
> Has anyone else in this newsgroup experimented with the old tempo
> markings? If they are valid--and there are strong arguments for
> them--typical performances of many minuets (such as the Brueggen example)
> are only 2/3 the speed they should be (dotted half-note = 80 or so).
>
I've experimented with Czerny's seemingly fast metronome markings, using MIDI
files of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier. 90% of the time I think Czerny is
right-on. Czerny supposedly based his edition of the WTC on his recollection of
how Beethoven played the works.
--
Tom Wood
Craig Wallace
Thanks for these illuminating postings, which is the kind of thing we should
all be grateful to this forum for offering us.
And to Daniel for sharing all this with us.
Craig
Andrew Stedman <aste...@uoguelph.ca> wrote in message
news:80gbgq$rtl$1...@testinfo.cs.uoguelph.ca...
> Jeremy Dimmick (jnd...@cam.ac.uk) wrote:
> : Layman's question: if minuets were always (or at least often) a good
deal
> : faster than we used to think, what was Beethoven implying when he
started
> : using the term 'Scherzo' instead? Is it not a matter of the latter
being
> : faster at all, but simply a matter of mood and an indication of the
greater
> : distance the movement had travelled from 'danceability'?
>
> I haven't studied this, but I conjecture: character, form. Note that
> Haydn used the title "scherzo" for the minuets in his Opus 33 string
> quartets from around 1780. Haydn also wrote very fast minuets (marked
> presto or faster) before Beethoven did.
>
> Daniel
Andrew Stedman
: Exemplary replies.
: Thanks for these illuminating postings, which is the kind of thing we should
: all be grateful to this forum for offering us.
: And to Daniel for sharing all this with us.
: Craig
Thank you! I sometimes wonder whether anyone reads what I write; you've
reassured me. :) I'm glad to have these discussions, especially when
those who discuss (Johannes and Simon) are so genuinely willing to consider
the points, but don't hold back when they think something is hokey.
Daniel
Bob Lombard
Czerny supposedly based his edition of the WTC on his recollection of
>how Beethoven played the works.
>
>
Czerny also based his edition of the Beethoven G major concerto on "his
recollection of how Beethoven played" the work. I have heard Newman's
recording using that edition. If everybody played it that way, the work
would no longer be played at all. Dead. Awkward. Repulsive. I could go on...
bl
Simon Roberts
: Thank you! I sometimes wonder whether anyone reads what I write; you've
: reassured me. :) I'm glad to have these discussions, especially when
: those who discuss (Johannes and Simon) are so genuinely willing to consider
: the points, but don't hold back when they think something is hokey.
Not hokey, exactly; just a possible objection which may or may not be of
any consequence. I do disagree re Brueggen's being sluggish -- he's often
slower than I would like (I hope you get a chance to hear Fey's Haydn disc
on Haenssler; wonderful minuets (among other things), that may even be
fast enough for you), but his articulation, rhythmic strength, etc., keep
it alive, for me at any rate. Anyway, I hope you persist in this.
Simon
Simon Roberts
: [snip]
Before you do so, I'll timidly note that I rather like what he does
(assuming you mean Anthony Newman)....
Simon
Andrew Stedman
: Czerny also based his edition of the Beethoven G major concerto on "his
: recollection of how Beethoven played" the work. I have heard Newman's
: recording using that edition. If everybody played it that way, the work
: would no longer be played at all. Dead. Awkward. Repulsive. I could go on...
Do you depreciate Czerny's edition or Newman's playing?
Daniel
jbay...@hotmail.com
si...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Simon Roberts) wrote:
> Bob Lombard (blom...@vermontel.net) wrote:
> : [snip]
of
> : >how Beethoven played the works.
> : >
> : >Tom Wood
> : >
> : Czerny also based his edition of the Beethoven G major concerto on
"his
> : recollection of how Beethoven played" the work. I have heard
Newman's
> : recording using that edition. If everybody played it that way, the
work
> : would no longer be played at all. Dead. Awkward. Repulsive. I could
go on...
>
> (assuming you mean Anthony Newman)....
And I'll boldly and unapologetically note that this is one of my
favorite recordings of the 4th concerto.
John
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bob Lombard
>Newman's
>> : recording using that edition. If everybody played it that way, the
>work
>> : would no longer be played at all. Dead. Awkward. Repulsive. I could
>go on...
>>
>> Before you do so, I'll timidly note that I rather like what he does
>> (assuming you mean Anthony Newman)....
>
>And I'll boldly and unapologetically note that this is one of my
>favorite recordings of the 4th concerto.
>
>John
>
like the plague. May save me some aural agony.
bl