A Tale Of Three Pianists ...
SG
me pianists. I would most decidedly welcome comments from listeners who
have more to offer on the subject than I do.
Kamal Gekic: I've first heard the live recording of Chopin's opus 10
no. 12 offered by the generous Tony which recording, simply put, was
more persuasive, in my perception, than Cortot's, Ginsburg's or
Sokolov's. Cortot exposed perhaps a similarly "epic thumb" (an
expression concocted on the basis of the English "green thumb" idiom
but, given the peculiar texture of this particular etude, all the more
apt ( : ).
I haven't heard though this etude being as thoroughly thought out as in
this, not particularly literal by any means (plenty of "odd", though
strangely compelling "inner voices"), but, in my perception again, not
at all arbitrary - on the contrary, musically revealing. The sense of
"wise urgency" (the tempo is not awfully fast and furious, allowing for
seamlessly architectural buildups), the dynamic underplaying of the
figuration, the adorable "there are many degrees of forte" attitude,
the clever having leggiero unpedalled passages (thus sounding
skillfully unstable, "asking for resolution") being followed by richly
pedalled passages once the peak has been achieved have convinced and
won me over, both from the professional's and the music lover's
perspective.
Next, I bought two CD's of Mr. Gekic, one with live Chopin recordings
in Japan which seemed half-inspired but somewhat uneven and
over-speculative (I believe this may have been the one John Gavin
expressed some reluctance about), while the second one, a studio
recording of Liszt's Transcendental Etudes, seemed to me to be an
utterly masterful version of this still scary cycle. Perhaps the F
Minor (no. 10) doesn't reach the degree of passion and
pianist-identifying-with-the-ethos that the listener may discern in
Cziffra's various versions (I've always felt Cziffra owned this piece),
perhaps La Ricordanza does not ring that particular bell of perfect
balance between passion and elegance that Petri's classical 78 did, but
most of the other etudes are amazing versions. The Mazeppa is wild,
daring, grand, dark, imaginative, perfectly voiced -- it even never
sounds notey, which is almost impossible
to do with this many notes. Mr. Gekic's must be now my favorite Feux
Follets, not forgetting the excellent recent version of Ovchinikov or
praised classics such as Berman, Richter or Hatto. (Kissin's would have
been quite impressive, had it been "recorded" on a piano roll like
Busoni's - well, on the positive side, it certainly sounds like a piano
roll (-:). ...It's simply that Mr. Gekic combines the eerie "legerete"
of Liszt's student Frederic Lamond with Lazar Berman's superior
technique and with subtle rubato touches all of his own, topped by
blissfully vague, smooth, subtle half- and quarter-pedals, based on an
unerring harmonic sensitivity, all in all with, to my ears, splendid
results. Wilde Jagd is another "sticking-out" winner but then so are
many if not most of the etudes recorded here. Quite unexpectedly
impressive though is the very first etude, a rather "easy" one, but
which with Mr. Gekic has an improvisational, "scene-setting" grandeur
that is more convincing than elsewhere.
>From this absolutely remarkable contemporary pianist, I went to EMI's
MARTHA ARGERICH PRESENTS Polina Leschenko. Who asked me to? Does it
really matter? And, even if somebody asked me to, did I have to
actually go there? And now that I chose to go there, why do I keep
complaining?
"Argerichish" fingers? Certainly. A young, health-prosperous lady who
can certainly run and jump up and down on the keyboard at will, with
occasionally exquisite rabbit-like dexterousness. Amazing lightness of
the poignet, the arthritis didn't set in yet, as in some envious
grumpies who, for their own sake, shall remain unnamed, like, just for
the sake of example, the undersigned.
The occasional felicitous color is there (such as at the beginning of
the more famous A Minor Paganini-Liszt etude, the arpegiatti sound
remarkably colorful, pizzicato-like). More virtuosic voicing than in
your average competition pianist. However, the musical depth cherished
in Mr. Gekic's recordings, even in his imperfect ones, I am not
NECESSARILY saying it's never been there, who knows, perhaps the dog
must have eaten it. Perhaps it's a matter of taste and I wouldn't be
surprised if other pianophiles felt differently (Ms. Leschenko IS an
accomplished professional), but I found almost everything she's doing
amazingly shallow and whimsical in the wrong way.
Extremely annoying phrasing in K-R's Liebesleid... slow it down, speed
it up, whatever. Whenever. Wherever. Got my Earl Wild out just to wash
my ears. With Ms. Leschenko, it's almost like one would forcibly attend
the whimsies of a Josef Hofmann implausibly getting high on some cheap
Bud Lite instead of Hofmann's trademark milessime ambrosia of the Greek
gods.
Still speaking of Josef Hofmann and somewhat still speaking of getting
high, literally or metaphorically I don't know yet, the third pianist
of the tale... what can I say? One thing I can say, did I mention I am
ashamed to say: I didn't know him earlier, despite, if memory serves,
the brilliant mind behind the APR label having told me about him long
ago. Natan Brand. Natan Brand. Natan Brand. How is it possible, I
wonder, that SUCH a pianist would be an almost unknown quantity among
music collectors(present company excepted, obviously)? For now I've
only got his Palexa two CDs set. I would really, REALLY appreciate
pianophiles telling me/us more about this truly incomparable pianist -
what recordings are still unpublished? What more is it known about his
life? How did he die? How did he die so young? Did he really have to
die?
Among pianists tracing their lineage to Hofmann, I am of course
(malgrado Mario Taboada, the unlikely Shura-hater) extremely fond of
the old Shura - uneven as he was, and sloppy as he could gleefully be,
when he was "on" (which happily happened often enough) he was a living,
walking, breathing, piano-playing gem of a musicman. Of Nadia
Reisenberg, Natan Brand's mentor, I know not only from some cherished
Haydn recordings but also from some rare, wild, positively Hofmannesque
live recording of Franck's Sonata, with none other than George Enescu
playing the, er, violin obligato, in Carnegie Hall, 1949 if poor
memories still serve aging bastards.
As much as I love Cherkassky and like Nadia Reisenberg, I can bear
witness in a court of law that it is Natan Brand who is THE
reincarnation of Josef Hofmann (if not of Anton Rubinstein, as the
Palexa set's well-written liner notes daringly suggest). He is the
reincarnation of Josef Hofmann because he does not play like Josef
Hofmann. Come and think of it, Josef Hofmann himself was seldom playing
like Josef Hofmann, because his human depth and inexhaustible gifts
forbade him from repeating himself. Natan Brand is "like" Josef Hofmann
not because he would reiterate Hofmann's "manners", but Josef Hofmann's
daring to think music anew, from a somewhat clean slate - a more
difficult, not to mention rarer endeavor than it seems when mentioned.
A combination of absorbed culturedness and the "bon sauvage"'s "the
world starts with me" defiance.
This Natan Brand Palexa set... one of the best musical buys I've ever
made. Had I known what I were about to get, I'd have paid 100$ for it,
no kidding. One Schumann disc, one Chopin disc. Romantic piano heaven.
Fabulous virtuosity but no perfection here. Things that are not only
"convincing", they are truly revelatory. Things who are debatable still
wonderful. It is the *yearning for what cannot be fully realized* that
brings more to the experience than the (I won't say "Liapathic" as I
don't want to estrange the [Yundi] Li-pettists among you) Apollonian
accomplishment.
I could analyze perhaps Natan Brand's prismatic perspectives on
potentially "repetitious phrases" -- now here was a man who took the
repeats without ever repeating himself, not because he tried to be
interesting, but because he was just too gifted to do that. Who paid
attention to how Hofmann plays the multiple reiterations of "C D F# Bb
A G" in Chopin's G Minor Ballad will know what I'm talking about. Natan
Brand needs to be experienced though, not analyzed. The simple
existence of such a pianist in the stereo era, with a style of playing
which uniquely suggests Hofmann intensity and charisma without ever
caricaturizing it, is somewhat a miracle, to the (sadly diminished)
extent I still believe music can count as a miracle in our
politics-obsessed times. Don't miss out on it. Very few miracles come
at 15 bucks apiece.
regards,
SG
Tony Overington
> This Natan Brand Palexa set... one of the best musical buys I've ever
For once, that seems to be the reaction of almost everyone who's heard
it (not that many have, unfortunately, which is why I've been
fist-pumping it for so long). Perhaps through your contacts and
persuasive words, Samir, you could convince the few important parties
involved in it to get going on volume 2. Apparently the project is in
danger of not continuing.
tomdeacon
It is entirely logical that Golescu would be attracted to the golden
age wannabes. Head still firmly planted in the past, I see.
He would do well, in fact he would do better, to seek out the BNL CD of
Schumann's Kreisleriana and the Funeral March Sonata by Chopin plus one
of the most beautiful performances of a Chopin nocturne it has been my
privilege to hear, which Mr. Brand made in the mid 1980s. It is a more
controlled, less wilful example of this pianist's music-making, while
one which retains the pianist's beauty of tone and appearance of
spontaneity throughout.
Josef Hofmann, indeed. But with at least sufficient taste to play
Schumann's music as written rather than editing out all the boring bits
as Hofmann the master expurgator did. Perhaps he was anxious to get to
the bar for a refill?
Incidentally, many go on about Palexa. Surely APR would do well to
amplify their releases by Mr. Brand.
TD
Bob Lombard
"SG" <SGG...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149400732....@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> ...Completely new or not particularly (for a long time) well-known to
> me pianists. I would most decidedly welcome comments from listeners
> who
> have more to offer on the subject than I do.
>
(Had to quote all of Samir's Brand writing, to emphasize the depth of my
poor taste)
I am not discerning enough to be a reliable judge of the relative merits
among highly competent pianists; what I am is deeply appreciative of
Schumann's piano music. Among the Schumann pieces on the Palexa CD, only
the Blumenstück performance charms me. The Kinderscenen is too sweetly
sentimental. Properly done, the scenes are recreations as the performer
'remembers' them - including the angst. If Brand experienced no angst in
childhood, it must have been a sheltered childhood. In contrast, both
Kreisleriana and the Nachtstücke have too much unrelenting forte.
Interesting and maybe significant, this excessive loudness is all or
nearly all within the same octaves - could it be a recording problem?
Anyway, the sense of the music is for me pretty much taken away. I don't
mean here just the 'sense' I usually get, I mean that nothing much comes
across except amorphous unease.
bl (taking a turn as a 'voice in the wilderness')
tomdeacon
Bob Lombard wrote:
> Kreisleriana and the Nachtstücke have too much unrelenting forte.
> Interesting and maybe significant, this excessive loudness is all or
> nearly all within the same octaves - could it be a recording problem?
> Anyway, the sense of the music is for me pretty much taken away. I don't
> mean here just the 'sense' I usually get, I mean that nothing much comes
> across except amorphous unease.
Trust me, Bob.
When he recorded this same Kreisleriana for BNL in France his
waywardness is under greater control and has a much more powerful
effect in the end. And it wears better than this "live" experimenting
on the fly with what he can do TO music, rather than what he can do
WITH music.
TD
JohnGavin
SG wrote:
. Mr. Gekic's must be now my favorite Feux
> Follets, not forgetting the excellent recent version of Ovchinikov or
> praised classics such as Berman, Richter or Hatto. (Kissin's would have
> been quite impressive, had it been "recorded" on a piano roll like
> Busoni's - well, on the positive side, it certainly sounds like a piano
> SG
Take a look at this one Samir - I don't know whose Feux Follets is the
best, but here a very good one IMO
Phil Caron
(praise for the Natan Brand Palexa cd)
I agree. Probably the most interesting and natural sounding Kinderscenen
I've heard, and the Kriesleriana joins a couple others at the top of my
personal list. Highly, almost lushly communicative musicianship, yet
without mannerisms or extremes. Even in some phrases where I feel that
Brand misses his mark, the attempts illuminate things of value for me.
Superb Schumann.
- Phil Caron
abac...@att.net
I don't know their playing. Thanks to Amazon's generous samples I was
able to hear Brand.
Yes, his playing does remind me a bit of Hofmann or Shura in the sense
that they liked to bring out inner voices, indulge in unusual accents
at unexpeded moments, etc.
He does have an active imagination which makes the playing
"interesting" but ultimately unsatisfying IMO.
The playing is too "hyper". he almosts never relaxes and even tranquil
music emerges unfulfilled, example -Traumerie (sp) -Schumann. He pushes
the simple phrase and therefore distorts the musical line. Mentioning
him in the same breath as Shura or Hofmann (in a postivee sense) is
outrageous IMO.
Aso, lacking for me is grace, hard to define but easy to sense.
Cherkassky at his best was a most graceful pianist........ his playing
was BEAUTIFUL, one who never distorts the musical line no matter what
unexpected and un-orthdox liberties he takes with the music
In these recordings, Brand can be brusque and sound harsh at times
thougt this could be partially the fault of the acoustics.
Somewhere in a piece, the music may call for a sense of repose and I
never feel that from him. A bit like Martha A. though the playing is
never as exciting as hers is.....
AB
wille...@hotmail.com
SG wrote:
> > >From this absolutely remarkable contemporary pianist, I went to EMI's
> MARTHA ARGERICH PRESENTS Polina Leschenko. Who asked me to? Does it
> really matter? And, even if somebody asked me to, did I have to
> actually go there? And now that I chose to go there, why do I keep
> complaining?
>
> "Argerichish" fingers? Certainly. A young, health-prosperous lady who
> can certainly run and jump up and down on the keyboard at will, with
> occasionally exquisite rabbit-like dexterousness. Amazing lightness of
> the poignet, the arthritis didn't set in yet, as in some envious
> grumpies who, for their own sake, shall remain unnamed, like, just for
> the sake of example, the undersigned.
>
> The occasional felicitous color is there (such as at the beginning of
> the more famous A Minor Paganini-Liszt etude, the arpegiatti sound
> remarkably colorful, pizzicato-like). More virtuosic voicing than in
> your average competition pianist. However, the musical depth cherished
> in Mr. Gekic's recordings, even in his imperfect ones, I am not
> NECESSARILY saying it's never been there, who knows, perhaps the dog
> must have eaten it. Perhaps it's a matter of taste and I wouldn't be
> surprised if other pianophiles felt differently (Ms. Leschenko IS an
> accomplished professional), but I found almost everything she's doing
> amazingly shallow and whimsical in the wrong way.
This is exactly what I thought after I heard her in the Liszt sonata
(It became one big blurr because of her frightfully fast tempi) and
Chopin's Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante. Apart from
her fingerwork and temperament, I can't understand why so many great
musicians (Apart from Argerich there are colleagues like Freire,
Heinrich Schiff, Andsnes who seem to be very impressed with her) call
her sensational. I would say that she has a high potential, but she
would need some guidance!
W.
Dan Koren
news:1149460810.6...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
Bullshit.
Leschenko is a more accomplished pianist and musician than Argerich
was at her age. The Anadante Spianato and Polonaise Brillante are
among the finest on record, right up there with Michelangeli and
Pletnev. Arguably the finest ever recorded. The Liszt Paganini
Etude is quite possibly the finest on record (I cannot remember
a more satisfying one, and I have heard many if not all recorded).
The Spanish Rhapsody on the same CD is the only one on record that
has some lyricism and sense of color and humor -- compare with
Arnaldo Cohen's heavy handed, relentless boots on the keys
traversal. The Liebesleid is far and away the finest on record,
far more inspired and musical than Rachmaninov's own or Wild's
wooden traversal. Apparently neither of them understand the
meaning of "leid".
As to Monseigneur the Gaullesco, we all know full well he likes
his pianists bald and dead, and above all "spiritual". How is it
possible for someone who worships Moisseiwitch's salon smoothness
and detachment and Hofmann's glib and superficial sentimentality
to dislike Leschenko's playing is beyond my understanding. Humans
however are neither rational nor reasonable, and I will leave it
at that.
dk
Bob Lombard
"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4483712b$1...@news.meer.net...
>
> Leschenko is a more accomplished pianist and musician than Argerich
> was at her age. The Anadante Spianato and Polonaise Brillante are
> among the finest on record, right up there with Michelangeli and
> Pletnev. Arguably the finest ever recorded. The Liszt Paganini
> Etude is quite possibly the finest on record (I cannot remember
> a more satisfying one, and I have heard many if not all recorded).
>
> The Spanish Rhapsody on the same CD is the only one on record that
> has some lyricism and sense of color and humor -- compare with
> Arnaldo Cohen's heavy handed, relentless boots on the keys
> traversal. The Liebesleid is far and away the finest on record,
> far more inspired and musical than Rachmaninov's own or Wild's
> wooden traversal. Apparently neither of them understand the
> meaning of "leid".
>
> As to Monseigneur the Gaullesco, we all know full well he likes
> his pianists bald and dead, and above all "spiritual". How is it
> possible for someone who worships Moisseiwitch's salon smoothness
> and detachment and Hofmann's glib and superficial sentimentality
> to dislike Leschenko's playing is beyond my understanding. Humans
> however are neither rational nor reasonable, and I will leave it
> at that.
> > dk
>
This is certainly true, and your combining of high praise for Leschenko
with the sense of your last paragraph is strong evidence of that.
bl
Bob Lombard
"Phil Caron" <vlad...@vermontel.net> wrote in message
news:11494472...@xwing.vermontel.net...
Schumann's genius by praising grotesque performances of his music. It
may be that this is a case of Deacon and Lombard against the rmcr hoi
polloi. You must bear the brunt of the attack, Tom, for I am a timid
soul.
bl
tomdeacon
And I never flinch from battle, as you know.
Brand is/was an interesting pianist. No question. But not the second
coming - the first, I will leave to your own imagination.
His improvisational style, his incessant and really rather vulgar
toying with voices, both inner and outer, is simply in bad taste.
Excessive. Out of control. He reminds me of a circus trapeze artist
with his "Look what I can do" attitude. Until he crashes and burns in
his own excesses.
As I continue to maintain, his studio effort - on BNL from France - put
a much better face on this kind of music-making.
Schumann's Kinderszenen are among the most difficult of his music to
perform well. The music can so easily descend into mawkish
sentimentality and this is sort of what happens with Brand. It also
marked some of VH's performances of Traumerei, for example. The best
Schumann players resist the temptation to sentimentalize this already
sufficiently sentimental music. Curious. The best Rachmaninoff
interpreters also do the same thing. Never put those two together
before, but it fits.
As far as Pollina is concerned, well, no question about her
temperament. No question about her fingers. Now, if only she had a
degree of musical taste, she would have everything. Without it, of
course, she is simply a chimpanzee at the piano.
A pretty one, of course, but still a chimp.
TD
Tony Overington
tomdeacon wrote:
> And I never flinch from battle, as you know.
Indeed, it sounds like you're courting it. Why not just be content that
we have some recordings of Brand as he really was--live, that is--and
not merely studio efforts -- which may be more listenable, but are not
necessarily the real thing, if you ask me.
Bob, out of curiosity, which pianists do you like in Kreisleriana?
fha.jonkers
> This Natan Brand Palexa set... one of the best musical buys I've ever
> made. Had I known what I were about to get, I'd have paid 100$ for it,
> no kidding. One Schumann disc, one Chopin disc. Romantic piano heaven.
> Fabulous virtuosity but no perfection here. Things that are not only
> "convincing", they are truly revelatory. Things who are debatable still
> wonderful.
And some things that are not. The Schumann is wonderful at times, but
most of the Chopin (excluding the op.27 Nocturnes) much less so, IMO.
> It is the *yearning for what cannot be fully realized* that
> brings more to the experience than the (I won't say "Liapathic" as I
> don't want to estrange the [Yundi] Li-pettists among you) Apollonian
> accomplishment.
Don't you feel the same yearning for what cannot be fully realised
(with emphasis on cannot) when listening to Helfgott?
tomdeacon
Tony Overington wrote:
> tomdeacon wrote:
> > And I never flinch from battle, as you know.
>
> Indeed, it sounds like you're courting it. Why not just be content that
> we have some recordings of Brand as he really was--live, that is--and
> not merely studio efforts -- which may be more listenable, but are not
> necessarily the real thing, if you ask me.
I didn't ask, but I gather that.
In any event, rather than commenting on "mere studio efforts" which you
have not heard, why not wait until you have heard them before
contrasting them to the ones you have heard. It only indicates that you
don't trust my judgment on the matter, and that's OK, of course.
I shall wait until you have heard that studio recording before
commenting further.
TD
Lena
[Rachmaninoff's or Rachmaninov's Liebesleid]
> > . Apparently neither of them understand the
> > meaning of "leid".
'snog'
> > As to Monseigneur the Gaullesco, we all know full well he likes
> > his pianists bald and dead, and above all "spiritual". How is it
> > possible for someone who worships Moisseiwitch's salon smoothness
> > and detachment and Hofmann's glib and superficial sentimentality
> > to dislike Leschenko's playing is beyond my understanding. Humans
> > however are neither rational nor reasonable, and I will leave it
> > at that.
> > > dk
> >
> >"Humans however are neither rational nor reasonable, [...]
>
> This is certainly true, and your combining of high praise for Leschenko
> with the sense of your last paragraph is strong evidence of that.
>
Dueling? :)
I think that I'd actually really like a compendium of suitable 3-word
caric.. characterizations of people's tastes in pianists. This would
help a lot in navigating the Pianophile Wars. And as a bonus, Phil can
be caricatured ultra-cheaply.
Lena
Bob Lombard
"Tony Overington" <sid...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149504997....@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
minutes on Denon - ought to mess things up, but don't), Horowitz
(sometimes). Sofronitsky on Arlecchino is very effective, though the
guy's Schumann usually doesn't work for me.
bl
Tony Overington
Bob Lombard wrote:
> Rubinstein, Afanassiev (his trademark pace shifts - II runs over 12
> minutes on Denon - ought to mess things up, but don't), Horowitz
> (sometimes). Sofronitsky on Arlecchino is very effective, though the
> guy's Schumann usually doesn't work for me.
>
> bl
Afanassiev? But just a few posts ago you said this:
"Ah so, the words of a Philistine, intent on subverting the art of
Schumann's genius by praising grotesque performances of his music."
Perhaps you were joking, but I think the joke is more on Afanassiev,
who has as much rhythmic life as a dead fish.
The rest of your performances I like too, though I think all, even
Horowitz, are rather pale after Brand.
Tony Overington
tomdeacon wrote:
> I shall wait until you have heard that studio recording before
> commenting further.
>
> TD
Yes indeed. Just like you ever so patiently waited before jumping on
the back of people who criticised Kreizberg, or Gergiev's Prokofiev
(both of which I attended, yet you still couldn't resist). Really Tom.
It's not your ears I question.
tomdeacon
Bob Lombard wrote:
> Rubinstein, Afanassiev (his trademark pace shifts - II runs over 12
> minutes on Denon - ought to mess things up, but don't), Horowitz
> (sometimes). Sofronitsky on Arlecchino is very effective, though the
> guy's Schumann usually doesn't work for me.
I am not sure I have ever discussed her before, but one of my very
favourite Schumann pianists is Fabienne Jacquinot. Madame Jacquinot,
aside from producing a number of recordings for the very old MGM label
in the 1950s (the Debussy Fantasie and Poulenc Aubade have been
released on Dutton), went on in 1984 and 1988 to record two magnificent
Schumann CDs for the BNL label. Yes, the same label which produced the
Brand CD of Kreisleriana.
Unfortunately Kreisleriana is not on either of these two CDs, but
Kinderszenen is, as well as the Symphonic Studies, Papillons, The
Prophet Bird, Carnaval and Davidsbundlertanze.
For those interested in these items, the numbers were BNL 112506 and
BNL 112728.
Both are unfortunately deleted from the French catalogue but may crop
up here or there in used CD bins or from various distributors. They are
highly recommended.
TD
Bob Lombard
"Lena" <emsw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149516984....@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> I think that I'd actually really like a compendium of suitable 3-word
> caric.. characterizations of people's tastes in pianists. This would
> help a lot in navigating the Pianophile Wars. And as a bonus, Phil
> can
> be caricatured ultra-cheaply.
>
include a recognizable Horowitz riding piggyback.
bl
Bob Lombard
actually) is affected by his pulse rate mostly, but also by his breath
rate. When listening to Afanassiev one should take long, slow, deep
breaths. The danger of falling into an irreversible yogic trance is
probably slight.
bl
Lena
> "Lena" <emsw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1149516984....@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
[re: "bald, dead, and spiritual"]
> > I think that I'd actually really like a compendium of suitable 3-word
> > caric.. characterizations of people's tastes in pianists. This would
> > help a lot in navigating the Pianophile Wars. And as a bonus, Phil
> > can
> > be caricatured ultra-cheaply.
> >
> A caricature of Phil wouldn't be that easy, because to be apt it must
> include a recognizable Horowitz riding piggyback.
>
Well, with you the program gave up due to too much data. It's now
conjecturing you like every pianist on record.
Lena
SG
fha.jonkers wrote:
> Don't you feel the same yearning for what cannot be fully realised
> (with emphasis on cannot) when listening to Helfgott?
Not the same (I'd have to be deaf or a patented idiot to do so), but I
feel it. He's so much further from it but at least he's trying. What
can I do? I am a merciful guy. Even Brendel's tortured yearnings to
realise *one* proper piano sound, once a decade, meets with my
admiration. It's almost as ineffably touching as watching the efforts
of a pigeon attempting to carry a dead elephant in its nest.
regards,
SG
tomdeacon
Tony Overington wrote:
> tomdeacon wrote:
> > I shall wait until you have heard that studio recording before
> > commenting further.
> >
> > TD
>
> Yes indeed. Just like you ever so patiently waited before jumping on
> the back of people who criticised Kreizberg, or Gergiev's Prokofiev
> (both of which I attended, yet you still couldn't resist).
Question of prinicple.
I can recognize immediately when someone is being sandbagged.
TD
tomdeacon
SG wrote:
> Even Brendel's tortured yearnings to realise *one* proper piano sound, once a decade, meets with my admiration.
Ever the teacher.
I wonder if Golescu has a little ruler and smacks his children on the
wrists when they produce a sound which he doesn't like?
Hmmmmmmm.
Perhaps that's how he gets his kicks.
That and taking truly pathetic swipes at one of the world's finest
musicians.
TD
Bob Lombard
Schumann, mostly. Don't like the way most of them play Chopin, except
Rubinstein and Weissenberg. Don't like the way Schiff plays just about
anything other than Bartok. What all that suggests is that most of the
pianists I have heard have recorded *something* I like; it's just a
matter of winnowing.
bl
Tony Overington
tomdeacon wrote:
> That and taking truly pathetic swipes at one of the world's finest
> musicians.
>
> TD
This opinion of Brendel is, strangely, justified in places like Vienna
and Salzburg. For reasons beyond human comprehension he receives
standing ovations in these places. So does Pollini.
In most other cities he's recognised as competent. At best. But then
anyone who's been to the Salzburg summer festival will realise that
it's all about reputation. Nothing more, except money of course (new as
much as old). Such places are best kept for those who wine and dine
before and after concerts, and merely need a bit of a distracting
interlude between force feeding themselves.
Simon Roberts
Overington says...
>
>
>tomdeacon wrote:
>> That and taking truly pathetic swipes at one of the world's finest
>> musicians.
>>
>> TD
>
>This opinion of Brendel is, strangely, justified in places like Vienna
>and Salzburg. For reasons beyond human comprehension he receives
>standing ovations in these places.
And London, and Edinburgh....
Simon
tomdeacon
And New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Toronto, Montreal,
Vancouver, Paris, Berlin, Hamburg, Tokyo, Munich.
In fact, in all the major world capitals.
But that means nothing, of course.
The opinions of the above posters, from Golescu to Roberts carry much,
much, much more heft and credibility.
TD
Steve Emerson
"Tony Overington" <sid...@gmail.com> wrote:
I like the Brand performance; I can't comment in depth because I've only
heard it once (although I have heard it once).
My only real quibble with your remark above, Tony, is to do with the
first piece in K., where I don't think Brand is particularly outré, nor
Horowitz as I've said a zillion times. By the way in a recent social
listening session, one of those who pegged the dementia meter pretty
well in i was Fou Ts'ong.
O/w -- I don't know who to say the guy sounds like. I have no idea if
the Anton Rubinstein idea is apt. He shares with Cherkassky a real
insistence on stressing non-primary voices, as I said before, but he
doesn't sound like C. He's not as interested in beautiful tone (of which
Cherkassky was a master), although he does a have a good tone. (I wonder
a lot about what piano was used in those Amherst recordings. Certainly
doesn't sound like an American Steinway; maybe a Hamburg, maybe a Boesy?
With the amount of piano pedagogy going on there at the time I expect
they could have had what they wanted; probably several.)
He doesn't remind me of Hofmann.
A friend said Sofronitsky (but this friend also said Hofmann). I don't
think he's as profound, or as interested in the profound, as
Sofronitsky, but there's something to this. He sounds somewhat American
to me. Maybe a blend, a little Sofronitsky, a little Gilels, a little
Katchen...
SE.
Steve Emerson
"Lena" <emsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bob Lombard wrote:
> > "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >
>
> [Rachmaninoff's or Rachmaninov's Liebesleid]
>
> > > . Apparently neither of them understand the
> > > meaning of "leid".
>
> 'snog'
LOL.
> > > As to Monseigneur the Gaullesco, we all know full well he likes
> > > his pianists bald and dead, and above all "spiritual". How is it
> > > possible for someone who worships Moisseiwitch's salon smoothness
> > > and detachment and Hofmann's glib and superficial sentimentality
> > > to dislike Leschenko's playing is beyond my understanding. Humans
> > > however are neither rational nor reasonable, and I will leave it
> > > at that.
> > > > dk
> > >
> > >"Humans however are neither rational nor reasonable, [...]
> >
> > This is certainly true, and your combining of high praise for Leschenko
> > with the sense of your last paragraph is strong evidence of that.
> >
>
> Dueling? :)
>
> I think that I'd actually really like a compendium of suitable 3-word
> caric.. characterizations of people's tastes in pianists. This would
> help a lot in navigating the Pianophile Wars. And as a bonus, Phil can
> be caricatured ultra-cheaply.
For denigration purposes a single word would do -- example: "Kapell."
O/w, a sort on how pianophiles rate 20 or so touchstone pianists might
be what's required. If you want, I can do Dan.
SE.
Steve Emerson
Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> wrote:
Many places in the U.S. too -- anywhere that received wisdom owns the
day (not that it's the only reason for liking B; however...). I was
surrounded by breathless fans at a Schiff recital a few years ago
wherein he played the dullest, most literal Goldbergs imaginable and
managed to make his Special Edition, Endowment Hamburg Steinway sound
like a Yamaha -- the woman beside me leapt to her feet as it ended,
gasping, "He's an *extraordinary* pianist!!!" These are circumstances in
which Brendel gets a standing ovation.
SE.
abac...@att.net
fuss is about this Brand person. Some of the Schumann is rather crude,
his voicing of chords is nothing special.....
it is noisy, nervous, lacking in beauty. Otherwise it is great
playing.....
Ab
Bob Lombard
<abac...@att.net> wrote in message
news:1149550949....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
>I also join the anti-Hoy- Polloi, Dont hear nor see what the f-----g
> fuss is about this Brand person. Some of the Schumann is rather
> crude,
> his voicing of chords is nothing special.....
> it is noisy, nervous, lacking in beauty. Otherwise it is great
> playing.....
>
> Ab
>
Persian hordes will inevitably prevail, but we shall make their ears
ring. Stand shoulder to shoulder with Tom, and I will pass you both
replacement spears as yours become imbedded in the breasts of our
enemies. I may shoot an arrow or two, between stints of cowering behind
you.
bl
Steve Emerson
"Tony Overington" <sid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> tomdeacon wrote:
> > That and taking truly pathetic swipes at one of the world's finest
> > musicians.
> >
> > TD
>
> This opinion of Brendel is, strangely, justified in places like Vienna
> and Salzburg. For reasons beyond human comprehension he receives
> standing ovations in these places. So does Pollini.
And let me furthermore state, append, and expand: the mandatory curative
against comparing Brendel and Pollini is to listen back-to-back to their
Schumann Fantasies....
SE.
Dan Koren
>
> fha.jonkers wrote:
>
>> Don't you feel the same yearning for what cannot be fully realised
>> (with emphasis on cannot) when listening to Helfgott?
>
> Not the same (I'd have to be deaf or a patented idiot to do so),
Not even the US Patent Office would patent idiots! ;-)
dk
Dan Koren
>
> tomdeacon wrote:
>> That and taking truly pathetic swipes at one of the world's finest
>> musicians.
>>
>> TD
>
> This opinion of Brendel is, strangely, justified in places like Vienna
> and Salzburg. For reasons beyond human comprehension he receives
> standing ovations in these places. So does Pollini.
>
Simply because there is no one else to salute and say 'heil'!
dk
Dan Koren
"Steve Emerson" <eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote in message
news:emersn-2FFE2F....@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...
Though not from the same women! ;-)
dk
Dan Koren
Whose back? Brendel's or Pollini's?
dk
Tony Overington
Steve Emerson wrote:
> My only real quibble with your remark above, Tony, is to do with the
> first piece in K., where I don't think Brand is particularly outré, nor
> Horowitz as I've said a zillion times. By the way in a recent social
> listening session, one of those who pegged the dementia meter pretty
> well in i was Fou Ts'ong.
Brand gets the kaleidoscopic nature of the work in full spin right away
with all those modified repetitions. But for me it's the private
central section which is so lovely in that opening piece. Very tender,
innocent and rapt, loaded, it seems to me, with undertones of fragility
and finiteness. The duet near its end must surely have been inspired by
the piece's history for Clara.
I haven't heard Fou Ts'ong so couldn't comment at all (I will
definitely see if I can find it though). I do think the Brand is outre
in the extreme though. For me Hofmann nailed it, but I think Brand does
just as much -- not so violent, perhaps, but with all that swirling,
spitting and writhing from the very beginning, it seems absolutely
freakish and doomed right away. An immediate loss of orientation,
recovered briefly--and sung beautifully--and then lost again, broken
down, with the seed of the piece's insanity in the very opening (both a
foretaste and a foregone conclusion). But then that's how the piece
should sound. How's the rest of the Ts'ong?
> O/w -- I don't know who to say the guy sounds like.
> SE.
I think the good news is that he doesn't really sound like anyone. And
I think Samir got it right when he said that Brand is the reincarnation
of Hofmann because he doesn't sound like Hofmann. Some of the Hofmann
principles--and I use the word lightly--are there, acted on in full,
but given a peculiarly personal, thus authentic, action and meaning. I
think it's rather revealing that you guys even attempted to place his
sound and style - that his bold, markedly individual way with
repetitions and diminuendos forced you to bring out great names to get
your bearings on him. Frankly I don't think he sounds like any of the
ones you mentioned, or anyone else for that matter (which again is why
Samir's statement makes sense to me). Your comment about the
Americanism in his playing is interesting and something I didn't think
of before. I don't think it will hold up to Brand for long though, and
not just because his interpretive ideas and ideas on execution seem so
rooted in a non-American past. It's mostly because most of the American
pianists, though no doubt exciting, strike me as rather literal -- not
high romantics, swooning over elongated beats and cutting phrases short
to draw in the audience. But at this point we're going to get into
pedagogy -- Russian teachers for American students -- and I don't want
to start that again, so suffice it to say that I don't immediately see
any parallels to American pianists in temperament, style or any other
way.
tomdeacon
Do you really think Robert thought anyone would be so stupid as to
listen to his music twice in a row?
TD
tomdeacon
Wayne Reimer wrote:
> they are regularly given to the likes of Lang Lang or WHOMEVER is the current
> Ms. Classical Jugs du Jour, after all.
I take particular glee in observing a pseudointellectual misusing the
language in such a fashion. It proves, of course, that there is little
understanding of simple grammar.
The word is WHOEVER. as this must be the subject of the verb "is" and
not the "object", since "is" does not have an object. It isn't an
intransitive verb, you see.
This used to be basic Grade Five English grammar.
Reimer was so busy coming up with cute ways of describing Ofra Harnoy
that he can't even write decent English. One would expect this of
Golescu, as he is linguistically challenged. But not from Mr. Reimer,
unless he, too, is an imported product.
The next thing I expect to see here is "irregardless"!!!
Don't tell me. You think this is actually a word.
TD
Bob Lombard
"tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1149594231....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
position re Brendell that is squarely on your side of the net.
Shorthanded as your side is, it seems reckless of you to attack him.
bl
JohnGavin
That's really distasteful - in case you haven't noticed 70 years have
passed by since then. How about the Viennese holding you accountable
for the massacre of American Indians?
Lena
Steve Emerson wrote:
> In article <1149516984....@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> "Lena" <emsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
["bald, dead, and spiritual"]
> > I think that I'd actually really like a compendium of suitable 3-word
> > caric.. characterizations of people's tastes in pianists. This would
> > help a lot in navigating the Pianophile Wars. And as a bonus, Phil can
> > be caricatured ultra-cheaply.
>
> For denigration purposes a single word would do -- example: "Kapell."
> O/w, a sort on how pianophiles rate 20 or so touchstone pianists might
> be what's required.
Maybe, but objectivity is not aimed for and a 20-pianist tabulation
will make a dangerously long scroll to read in the middle of a battle.
> If you want, I can do Dan.
Do everyone...
Lena
Tony Overington
Bob Lombard wrote:
>Don't like the way most of them play Chopin, except....Weissenberg.
> bl
No one was a greater communist than Weissenberg. He used the Hammer &
Sickle everywhere, and on everything. Poor Chopin.
Simon Roberts
says...
Roberts didn't state an opinion, merely a fact, based on first-hand observation.
carry much,
>much, much more heft and credibility.
I'm glad you're evidently rejecting my high estimation of his Haydn.
Simon
tomdeacon
Bob Lombard wrote:
> Regardless of Wayne's level of linguistic expertise, he stated a
> position re Brendell that is squarely on your side of the net.
> Shorthanded as your side is, it seems reckless of you to attack him.
Shorthanded?
You're joking, Bob. The world recognizes the greatness of Alfred
Brendel. That some here don't is almost irrelevant. A curiosity.
As for the linguistic error, I simply cannot resist correcting examples
of "hypercorrection".
TD
makropulos
> The next thing I expect to see here is "irregardless"!!!
>
> Don't tell me. You think this is actually a word.
>
> TD
My all-time favourite - and it turned up on BBC Radio 4 this very
morning...God help us all.
tomdeacon
Simon Roberts wrote:
> Roberts didn't state an opinion, merely a fact, based on first-hand observation.
"For reasons beyond human comprehension"
It is a "fact", then, that Simon is the only human? Most have no
trouble comprehending.
TD
tomdeacon
Wayne Reimer wrote:
> Appearances notwithstanding, I'm not so sure I'm on the same side of
> the Brendel net as TD; I may be playing a different game on a different
> court. I hope so, anyway.
That makes two of us.
TD
tomdeacon
Right!
TD
Richard Schultz
: My all-time favourite - and it turned up on BBC Radio 4 this very
: morning...God help us all.
Heck, this morning, the BBC World Service featured a reporter who seemed
to think that "666" as the "mark of the beast" was found in the Old Testament.
Let's face it -- the BBC ain't what it used to be.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
Bob Lombard
and cultures. In the view of a 19th century Comanche you would not be
human, Tom.
bl
Simon Roberts
tomdeacon
He would probably be right, Bob.
Does that mean there IS only one human, and that is Simon Roberts. If
so, we are in deep doodoo!
TD
Steve Emerson
"Bob Lombard" <thorste...@vermontel.net> wrote:
> "tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:1149594231....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Wayne Reimer wrote:
> >> they are regularly given to the likes of Lang Lang or WHOMEVER is
> >> the current Ms. Classical Jugs du Jour, after all.
> >
> > I take particular glee in observing a pseudointellectual misusing the
> > language in such a fashion. It proves, of course, that there is little
> > understanding of simple grammar.
> >
> > The word is WHOEVER. as this must be the subject of the verb "is" and
> > not the "object", since "is" does not have an object. It isn't an
> > intransitive verb, you see. [...]
You'd think that a guy would be sure he knew what "intransitive" meant
before voicing this sort of self-satisfied belligerence....
> Regardless of Wayne's level of linguistic expertise, he stated a
> position re Brendel that is squarely on your side of the net.
> Shorthanded as your side is, it seems reckless of you to attack him.
True, and on second thought my comment above assumes we're dealing with
somebody rational.
SE.
tomdeacon
Steve Emerson wrote:
> In article <128as2v...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Bob Lombard" <thorste...@vermontel.net> wrote:
>
> > "tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> > news:1149594231....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > >
> > > Wayne Reimer wrote:
> > >> they are regularly given to the likes of Lang Lang or WHOMEVER is
> > >> the current Ms. Classical Jugs du Jour, after all.
> > >
> > > I take particular glee in observing a pseudointellectual misusing the
> > > language in such a fashion. It proves, of course, that there is little
> > > understanding of simple grammar.
> > >
> > > The word is WHOEVER. as this must be the subject of the verb "is" and
> > > not the "object", since "is" does not have an object. It isn't an
> > > intransitive verb, you see. [...]
>
> You'd think that a guy would be sure he knew what "intransitive" meant
> before voicing this sort of self-satisfied belligerence....
Sorry, Steve. I wrote that sentence twice. First as "he didn't know is
is "intransitive", then altered the sentence to avoid the is is and
left the first version of the gramatical word unchanged by mistake.
I DO know the difference. The point is the writer didn't, hence the
"whomever".
Didn't spend half my life studying five languages without being able to
tell that distinction.
TD
Vaneyes
wille...@hotmail.com
tomdeacon wrote:
> Do you really think Robert thought anyone would be so stupid as to
> listen to his music twice in a row?
>
> TD
Excuse me?? Stupid?? Schumann's Fantasy is a masterwork! I thought that
was beyond discussion?
W.
tomdeacon
What is stupid is to listen to it twice in a row.
You think that's smart?
TD
tomdeacon
Wayne Reimer wrote:
> The underlying structure is "they are given to the likes of whomever".
> The "whomever" is functioning primarily as an object and is only
> secondarily the subject of the rest of the sentence.
Wrong.
The recognizable subject (who, subjective, as opposed to whom, which is
accusative) of an intransitive verb can NEVER be trumped by its
position as the object of a preposition.
The ONLY word in that particular case is WHOEVER.
TD
abac...@att.net
> >> Don't you feel the same yearning for what cannot be fully realised
> >> (with emphasis on cannot) when listening to Helfgott?
> >
> > Not the same (I'd have to be deaf or a patented idiot to do so),
>
>
> Not even the US Patent Office would patent idiots! ;-)
>
> dk
soon we will be able to clone idiots..... wont that be great:-)
AB
abac...@att.net
>
> You're joking, Bob. The world recognizes the greatness of Alfred
> Brendel. That some here don't is almost irrelevant. A curiosity.
>
> As for the linguistic error, I simply cannot resist correcting examples
> of "hypercorrection".
>
> TD
TD, you ought to know better...... what "world" recognizes the
greatness of Brendel????
You surely know that the vast majority of concert goers know shit
about piano playing...
Brendel is fine pianist at his best........ great, never. I know a
number of professional and excellent amateur pianists and not one feels
that B. is a special talent. Forget about the world......... that is
nonsense.......
AB
Dan Koren
news:emersn-AD78AC....@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...>> Bob Lombard wrote:
>> > "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >
>>
>> [Rachmaninoff's or Rachmaninov's Liebesleid]
>>
>> > > . Apparently neither of them understand the
>> > > meaning of "leid".
>>
>> 'snog'
>
> LOL.
>
>> > > As to Monseigneur the Gaullesco, we all know full well he likes
>> > > his pianists bald and dead, and above all "spiritual". How is it
>> > > possible for someone who worships Moisseiwitch's salon smoothness
>> > > and detachment and Hofmann's glib and superficial sentimentality
>> > > to dislike Leschenko's playing is beyond my understanding. Humans
>> > > however are neither rational nor reasonable, and I will leave it
>> > > at that.
>> > > > dk
>> > >
>> > >"Humans however are neither rational nor reasonable, [...]
>> >
>> > This is certainly true, and your combining of high praise for Leschenko
>> > with the sense of your last paragraph is strong evidence of that.
>> >
>>
>> Dueling? :)
>>
>> I think that I'd actually really like a compendium of suitable 3-word
>> caric.. characterizations of people's tastes in pianists. This would
>> help a lot in navigating the Pianophile Wars. And as a bonus, Phil can
>> be caricatured ultra-cheaply.
>
> For denigration purposes a single word would do -- example: "Kapell."
> O/w, a sort on how pianophiles rate 20 or so touchstone pianists might
>
Prove it!
dk
Dan Koren
news:1149594231....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> Don't tell me. You think this is actually a word.
>
Unfortunately, so do many Americans.
Even Canadians ;-)
dk
Dan Koren
That took half your life?
How can one be so dumb?
dk
Dan Koren
news:e64fve$o30$2...@news.iucc.ac.il...
> In article <1149616087.6...@y43g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> makropulos <makro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> : My all-time favourite - and it turned up on BBC Radio 4 this very
> : morning...God help us all.
>
> Heck, this morning, the BBC World Service featured a reporter who seemed
> to think that "666" as the "mark of the beast" was found in the Old
> Testament.
> Let's face it -- the BBC ain't what it used to be.
>
The BBC probably never heard of Motel 666.
dk
Dan Koren
"JohnGavin" <dag...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1149596504....@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dan Koren wrote:
>> "Tony Overington" <sid...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1149534464.0...@h76g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > tomdeacon wrote:
>> >> That and taking truly pathetic swipes at one of the world's finest
>> >> musicians.
>> >>
>> >> TD
>> >
>> > This opinion of Brendel is, strangely, justified in places like Vienna
>> > and Salzburg. For reasons beyond human comprehension he receives
>> > standing ovations in these places. So does Pollini.
>>
>> Simply because there is no one else to salute and say 'heil'!
>
> passed by since then. How about the Viennese holding you accountable
> for the massacre of American Indians?
>
Holding *ME* accountable for the massacre of American Indians?
I never swatted a fly in my entire life.
dk
Dan Koren
news:1149642369.5...@j55g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>> >> Don't you feel the same yearning for what cannot be fully realised
>> >> (with emphasis on cannot) when listening to Helfgott?
>> >
>> > Not the same (I'd have to be deaf or a patented idiot to do so),
>>
>> Not even the US Patent Office would patent idiots! ;-)
>
>
Have you found a market niche?
dk
Tony Overington
If the first performance is rather poor, then listening twice in a row
might be necessary ;)
Bob Lombard
"Wayne Reimer" <wrdslremovethis濃pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ef02589e...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
>> In article <44867bce$1...@news.meer.net>, dank...@yahoo.com says...
> later
> become a legit word, irregardless of the efforts of the language
> police. It's a strange one, too, because "regardless" works so well
> as
> is. Where the "ir" comes from is more mysterious to me than some of
> the other popular incorrect usages, like the ever-popular "crescendo"
> for "climax", or "near miss" for "near hit".
>
Don't understand your conceptual problem with 'near miss'. It's a miss
that came near. That 'near hit' does have a problem - should be 'nearly
a hit' - although 'nearly' is pretty awkward too. 'Climax' has pervasive
sexual connotations for some people, so the statement "The music came to
a climax" produces an unhealthy envy. Or some other emotion equally
primitive.
bl
tomdeacon
Alas!
TD
wille...@hotmail.com
I definitely wouldn't mind if it's played twice by a master pianist! If
you truly love a piece, you'll love it the second time too...
W
Steve Emerson
"Tony Overington" <sid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the good news is that he doesn't really sound like anyone. And
> I think Samir got it right when he said that Brand is the reincarnation
> of Hofmann because he doesn't sound like Hofmann. Some of the Hofmann
> principles--and I use the word lightly--are there, acted on in full,
> but given a peculiarly personal, thus authentic, action and meaning. I
> think it's rather revealing that you guys even attempted to place his
> sound and style - that his bold, markedly individual way with
> repetitions and diminuendos forced you to bring out great names to get
> your bearings on him. Frankly I don't think he sounds like any of the
> ones you mentioned,
Oh -- I meant that he sounded like them because he didn't sound like
them; same as your Hofmann example. ;)
> or anyone else for that matter (which again is why
> Samir's statement makes sense to me). Your comment about the
> Americanism in his playing is interesting and something I didn't think
> of before. I don't think it will hold up to Brand for long though, and
> not just because his interpretive ideas and ideas on execution seem so
> rooted in a non-American past. It's mostly because most of the American
> pianists, though no doubt exciting, strike me as rather literal -- not
> high romantics, swooning over elongated beats and cutting phrases short
> to draw in the audience.
I don't know that Brand is quite a "high romantic." Anyway there are
things in Brand that seem American that are not evoked by your comments
above; on him or on traits of American piano playing.
BTW one of the American pianists who don't sound terribly American is Mr
Beveridge Webster; a student of Schnabel who worked closely with Ravel
-- he grew up in Europe. Mr Cliburn of course doesn't always sound
American, but as you say this (too) becomes a question of the teacher
(Rosa Lhevinne).
SE.
Steve Emerson
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Wayne_Reimer?= <wrdslremovethis濃pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article <1149640164.3...@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > tomde...@yahoo.ca says...
> Oh, I know what I'll say, following your lead - when I first wrote the
> sentence, it ended with "the likes of Lang Lang or whomever", but then
> I added the rest but forgot to change the case, since it doesn't sound
> all that bad and really only bothers priggish self-appointed language
> police types when they come across it in casual settings such as rmcr.
Furthermore, the citation Fowler uses to elucidate the mistake in
question -- is from Henry James. A guy who actually could write better
than many RMCR contributors.
> The rule (which I didn't remember from school lo those many years ago,
> along with not remembering most of the rest of language stuff, like the
> definition of "gerund", and the usage rule for "which/that"
Restrictive/non-restrictive. Generally if no comma, use 'that'. If you
can't insert a comma in front of a "which" without changing the meaning,
usually the which should be a that.
--PSALP.
Steve Emerson
wrote:
> "Steve Emerson" <eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote in message
> news:emersn-AD78AC....@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...
> > For denigration purposes a single word would do -- example: "Kapell."
> > O/w, a sort on how pianophiles rate 20 or so touchstone pianists might
> > be what's required. If you want, I can do Dan.
> >
>
>
> Prove it!
Well, as I hinted, this one is pretty easy. And only in part because I
have befriended DK's dry cleaner (located in a strip center in
Milipitas, CA). This wonderful chap slipped me the following, extracted
before it went in the fluid, from one of Dan's blazers. His notes on a
small number of these touchstone pianists.
"Maurizio Pollini. Greatest pianist to come out of Europe since Firkusny.
"Serkin. Such a musical pianist. Sometimes he sounds ugly--or more
accurately, hideous--but is that so important?
"Richter. A great player to be sure, but must he always be so big, so
profound? 'I am the pianist, this is Bach, I understand Bach, listen,
and you will understand too.' Yick. The guy should have had taste
lessons from Brendel or Uchida. Love his Hindemith.
"Schnabel. One more dead white pianist. Gaulescu can have him.
"Horowitz. One word: God.
"Arrau. Who is Arrau?
"Kempff. Schumann to die for. His Kreisleriana is desert island stuff.
"Andras Schiff. Great, great Bach player. To me he sounds a lot like
Sofronitsky.
"Rachmaninoff. Sure, but where's his Iberia?"
SE.
Dan Koren
>
> BTW one of the American pianists who don't sound terribly American is Mr
> Beveridge Webster; a student of Schnabel who worked closely with Ravel
> -- he grew up in Europe.
Webster doesn't sound terribly pianistic either ;-)
> Mr Cliburn of course doesn't always sound American, but as you say this
> (too) becomes a question of the teacher (Rosa Lhevinne).
Van Cliburn is a Russian pianist -- as Russian (or better) than any who
ever graduated from the Moscow or St. Petersburg conservatories.
dk
Dan Koren
Pretty lame.
You have no future as a stand up comedian!
dk
Dan Koren
But you can always move to Quebec ;-)
dk
tomdeacon
Dan Koren wrote:
> "tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:1149684794.9...@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Dan Koren wrote:
> >> "tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> >> news:1149594231....@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >> >
> >> > The next thing I expect to see here is "irregardless"!!!
> >> >
> >> > Don't tell me. You think this is actually a word.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, so do many Americans.
> >>
> >> Even Canadians ;-)
> >
> > Alas!
>
>
> But you can always move to Quebec ;-)
The use of language only gets worse.
TD
Steve Emerson
wrote:
> "Steve Emerson" <eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote in message
> news:emersn-94870D....@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> >
> > BTW one of the American pianists who don't sound terribly American is Mr
> > Beveridge Webster; a student of Schnabel who worked closely with Ravel
> > -- he grew up in Europe.
>
>
> Webster doesn't sound terribly pianistic either ;-)
Have you heard his solo Brahms LP lately?
SE.
Lena
> "Steve Emerson" <eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote in message
> news:emersn-7BA3C7....@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> > In article <44867b70$1...@news.meer.net>, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Steve Emerson" <eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote in message
> >> news:emersn-AD78AC....@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...
> >
> >> > For denigration purposes a single word would do -- example: "Kapell."
> >> > O/w, a sort on how pianophiles rate 20 or so touchstone pianists might
> >> > be what's required. If you want, I can do Dan.
> >>
> >> Prove it!
[...]
> > "Kempff. Schumann to die for. His Kreisleriana is desert island stuff.
> >
> > "Andras Schiff. Great, great Bach player. To me he sounds a lot like
> > Sofronitsky.
> >
> > "Rachmaninoff. Sure, but where's his Iberia?"
>
>
> Pretty lame.
>
Actually, I thought that was a pretty hilarious anti-Dan. (Right down
to the "yick".)
> You have no future as a stand up comedian!
And what's even worse, you've just jeopardized your future as an
audience. :)
Lena
Bob Lombard
"Lena" <emsw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1149986052.2...@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Nah. The comments are humorous enough, but not in the DK style. Plus, DK
has no standing as an rmcr 'audience'. His forte is as transmitter, not
as receiver, where he is too predictable.
bl
>
Dan Koren
But misuse only gets better! ;-)
dk
PS. You did miss the point, didn't you?
There's no equivalent to "irregardless"
in French. Or is there one in Quebecois?
Lena
Bob Lombard wrote:
> "Lena" <emsw...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1149986052.2...@c74g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > Dan Koren wrote:
> >> "Steve Emerson" <eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote in message
> >> news:emersn-7BA3C7....@sn-ip.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
> >> > In article <44867b70$1...@news.meer.net>, "Dan Koren"
> >> > <dank...@yahoo.com>
>
> > Actually, I thought that was a pretty hilarious anti-Dan. (Right down
> > to the "yick".)
> >
> >> You have no future as a stand up comedian!
> >
> > And what's even worse, you've just jeopardized your future as an
> > audience. :)
> >
> > Lena
>
> Nah. The comments are humorous enough, but not in the DK style.
But... that the 'speaker' sounds like someone pretty far removed from
the DK style is the idea (I assume).
> Plus, DK
> has no standing as an rmcr 'audience'. His forte is as transmitter, not
> as receiver, where he is too predictable.
>
Has anyone heard any interesting recordings lately? :)
Lena
Bob Lombard
>
>
> Has anyone heard any interesting recordings lately? :)
>
> Lena
>
bl