Is Hiromi Uehara the Best Pianist in the World?

[Marc P.]

I watched a few other clips as well, she's astonishing.

[John Thomas]

On Friday, July 15, 2016 at 9:04:37 PM UTC-7, dk wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZElPkc9ORz0
> http://convozine.com/1968-artsandculturestuff/8046
> What do you think?
> dk

I'll let you know after I've heard every other pianist in the world. Are they all on YouTube?

[Herman]

Best Pianist in the World?

That's Joyce Hatto, right?

(Seriously, are you thirteen years old, and looking hard for the biggest best?)

[Gerard]

"dk" wrote in message
news:c12bb0a9-3f17-439a...@googlegroups.com...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZElPkc9ORz0
http://convozine.com/1968-artsandculturestuff/8046
What do you think?

=================

Yes. Next question please.

[HT]

Op zaterdag 16 juli 2016 06:04:37 UTC+2 schreef dk:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZElPkc9ORz0
> http://convozine.com/1968-artsandculturestuff/8046
> What do you think?

> dk

<g> Yes, she's the best and Lim is the only pianist.

Henk

[Herman]

OMG I hadn't even noticed DK have gone quadruple OT.

This is not classical music, it's not recorded, it's just another teenie.

[Matthew Silverstein]

On Friday, July 15, 2016 at 11:04:37 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZElPkc9ORz0
> http://convozine.com/1968-artsandculturestuff/8046
> What do you think?

I have a few of her early CDs, and they're terrific.

Matty

[Gerard]

"dk" wrote in message
news:3b700ad7-e71a-4f93...@googlegroups.com...

On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 2:32:49 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
>
> This is not classical music, it's not
> recorded, it's just another teenie.

Prejudiced, idiotic and racist as usual
from you -- not to mention in obvious
contradiction with the facts. She is
37 and the performance is recorded.

In case you haven't noticed, the
meaning of "recorded" has changed.
Recordings are no longer limited to
silver or black discs.

All performances captured on digital
media and accessible by anyone at
the click of a mouse are recordings.

==========================

That's not a good definition at all.
Clicks of mouses have nothing to do with being a recording.

[Gerard]

"dk" wrote in message
news:6b70a274-1c3e-4413...@googlegroups.com...

You clearly did not read through what I
wrote. The performance being captured on
a digital media (including bits stored in
a public cloud) and being available to
anyone at any time is what makes it a
recording. The mouse is not essential
to the definition, but it seems you
are just another dumb literalist like
Herman.
====================

With people like you here one has no choice.
A recording does not have to be digital at all.
It also does not have to be available. Nor to anyone, nor at any time.

BTW
Reading what you write isn't interesting at all.
At any time.

[Marc P.]

I'm sorry to see this newsgroup has devolved to this, is trashing each other all that's left here?

Many thanks to Dan however for the link to Ms. Uehara's astonishing Gershwin recording.

[AB]

On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 12:04:37 AM UTC-4, dk wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZElPkc9ORz0
> http://convozine.com/1968-artsandculturestuff/8046
> What do you think?

> dk

why are you so impressed?

AB

[Herman]

On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 8:26:02 PM UTC+2, dk wrote:

>
> In case you haven't noticed, Hiromi
> played a paraphrase on "I Got Rhythm"
> by George Gershwin. How is that not
> classical?
>
Because Gershwin's I Got Rhythm isn't classical music.

It's a show tune. I like it too (Balanchine!), but that doesn't make it classical music.

[Herman]

On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 11:03:23 PM UTC+2, dk wrote:

> On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 12:59:49 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 8:26:02 PM UTC+2, dk wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > In case you haven't noticed, Hiromi
> > > played a paraphrase on "I Got Rhythm"
> > > by George Gershwin. How is that not
> > > classical?
> > >
> > Because Gershwin's I Got Rhythm isn't classical music.
>

> Your opinion.
>
And if you're confused, just look at the drum kit and the guitar.

Plus the way she bangs the piano, goofing with the audience.

[ljk...@aol.com]

On Friday, July 15, 2016 at 11:04:37 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZElPkc9ORz0
> http://convozine.com/1968-artsandculturestuff/8046
> What do you think?
> dk

She’s technically adept and not unpleasant but IMO quite derivative and “surface-y.”



By contrast, Bud Powell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73BrOBpxhtY

and Adam Mackowicz (himself indebted to Tatum, to whom he’s paying tribute, but note the harmonic inventiveness compared to Uehara):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTsZflN98eY

Larry Kart

[ljk...@aol.com]

Further…


Wynton Kelly (for building a solo that really evolves/hangs together):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh6JbpWhYSo

Dick Twardzik (for inventiveness and lucid, if quirky, development):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihofWclZG5s&list=PLyHn3f7-9IULYJo8DKVCZP9BbBovIanVg

Phineas Newborn (for sheer joyous dexterity):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mADxQjfxL54

Larry Kart

[Raymond Hall]

On Saturday, 16 July 2016 14:04:37 UTC+10, dk wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZElPkc9ORz0
> http://convozine.com/1968-artsandculturestuff/8046
> What do you think?
> dk

She is remarkable. I know that she also plays classical, but concentrates on jazz as she plays it. She is a full bag of wizardry for sure, but I'd like to hear her in some classical. At the moment she falls in between the two genres, but she is a technical wizard-ess.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Tony]

On Saturday, 16 July 2016 07:04:37 UTC+3, dk wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZElPkc9ORz0
> http://convozine.com/1968-artsandculturestuff/8046
> What do you think?
> dk

She's remarkable. Personally this style--I don't know what to call it--doesn't do anything for me. No emotional transmission at all, just like watching (a very talented) someone on speed in their bedroom. Although I can see she's remarkable, I wouldn't want to sit through more than five minutes of this (not unless she shared the speed ;) ).

I doubt she could play like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RzmWxXmpM8

[Bozo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unZp9IezsAY

[ljk...@aol.com]

On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 4:03:23 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 12:59:49 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:

> > On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 8:26:02 PM UTC+2, dk wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > In case you haven't noticed, Hiromi
> > > played a paraphrase on "I Got Rhythm"
> > > by George Gershwin. How is that not
> > > classical?
> > >
> > Because Gershwin's I Got Rhythm isn't classical music.
>

> Your opinion.

>
> > It's a show tune. I like it too (Balanchine!),
> > but that doesn't make it classical music.
>

> That seems a matter of convention, doesn't it?
> The boundary has never been clear, and it is
> getting fuzzier all the time. Are you going
> to tell us Ellington's Concerto for Cookie
> isn't "classical" either? Or Piazzolla's
> Concertango?
>
> Equally important, are Glass/Reich/Cage/Nono/
> Stockhausen/Xenakis/Part random noises
> "classical music"?
>
> FWIW some of Beethoven's contemporaries did
> not think his music was "classical" either.
>
> dk

That would be "Concerto for Cootie," as in Cootie Williams. Far from classical BTW, at least IMO, although the "Concerto" in the title implies that. Read "Concerto for Cootie" as "Showcase for Cootie" and you'd be right, although it's a subtle, elegantly crafted showcase to be sure. A good deal closer to classical among Ellington's compositions would be "Reminiscing in Tempo" and "A Tone Parallel to Harlem."

Larry Kart

[Herman]

On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 1:46:30 AM UTC+2, dk wrote:
>
> The music that is permanently loaded in my
> mobile CD player are by Bill Evans, Hiromi,
> and Chihiro Yamanaka.
>
> dk

well, that is just too interesting, but if you're not interested in classical music as is commonly defined (just look at the topic s NOT started by you here) why spend so much time on a newsgroup about classical music?

[Oscar]

How is "classical sub-genre" commonly defined? What does it mean? Other examples? Metallica with Michael Tilson Thomas and the San Francisco Symphony??

[Herman]

On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 9:28:06 AM UTC+2, Oscar wrote:
> How is "classical sub-genre" commonly defined? What does it mean? Other examples? Metallica with Michael Tilson Thomas and the San Francisco Symphony??

don't be silly, that's marketing.

[Herman]

On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 8:28:27 AM UTC+2, dk wrote:

>
> Jazz is a classical sub-genre.
>
not it's not.

[Gerard]

"Marc P." wrote in message
news:44be121c-3512-4bb5...@googlegroups.com...

I'm sorry to see this newsgroup has devolved to this, is trashing each other
all that's left here?

========================

Why do you say 'devolved'? It has been much worse here during many years.

[Gerard]

"Herman" wrote in message
news:73d9fc7c-8281-4db9...@googlegroups.com...

===================

Some of those pianophile URL posters really have nothing else to do in their
lives than posting.

[Raymond Hall]

On Sunday, 17 July 2016 18:59:16 UTC+10, Gerard wrote:
> "Marc P." wrote in message
>

> I'm sorry to see this newsgroup has devolved to this, is trashing each other
> all that's left here?
>
> ========================
>
> Why do you say 'devolved'? It has been much worse here during many years.

Yes, far better than in years gone by. However, getting to the point in question, I really believe that classical music and jazz are better explained as being focal points of an ellipse, and within the orbit that defines serious music. Even some rock/other genres get within this orbit at times. I wouldn't want to be without either, and just because this is called a classical recording group, shouldn't mean precluding other types of serious music being discussed simply because of a category name.

Even more to the point, Hiromi is far too gifted a pianist to be chained to playing classical scores. It would be like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. Fwiw.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Herman]

On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 1:10:43 PM UTC+2, Raymond Hall wrote:
> On Sunday, 17 July 2016 18:59:16 UTC+10, Gerard wrote:
> > "Marc P." wrote in message
> >
> > I'm sorry to see this newsgroup has devolved to this, is trashing each other
> > all that's left here?
> >
> > ========================
> >
> > Why do you say 'devolved'? It has been much worse here during many years.
>
> Yes, far better than in years gone by. However, getting to the point in question, I really believe that classical music and jazz are better explained as being focal points of an ellipse, and within the orbit that defines serious music. Even some rock/other genres get within this orbit at times. I wouldn't want to be without either, and just because this is called a classical recording group, shouldn't mean precluding other types of serious music being discussed simply because of a category name.

Specious. Large parts of rock are just as serious and tradition freighted as jazz. And how about Bluegrass?

Just because you like it doesn't make it classical. There are plenty of groups about Jazz.

[Herman]

On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 1:10:43 PM UTC+2, Raymond Hall wrote:


>

> Even more to the point, Hiromi is far too gifted a pianist to be chained to playing classical scores.

Am I to infer you think classical music is for ungifted musicians?

The fragment I saw was about banging loud and very fast and goofing with the audience.

I bet Krystian Zimerman can play loud and fast and exact, too, while winking at the audience, but he'd find it embarrassing and stupid

[Raymond Hall]

On Sunday, 17 July 2016 21:39:29 UTC+10, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 1:10:43 PM UTC+2, Raymond Hall wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Even more to the point, Hiromi is far too gifted a pianist to be chained to playing classical scores.
>
> Am I to infer you think classical music is for ungifted musicians?

I never even remotely inferred this, but musical gifts should be used accordingly. A lot of classical pianists practice scales, because a lot of earlier romantic music demands these type of skills. Notes for the sake of notes, but then I don't listen to a lot of earlier romantic music because of this trait.

>
> The fragment I saw was about banging loud and very fast and goofing with the audience.

Maybe you should have watched the whole clip.

> I bet Krystian Zimerman can play loud and fast and exact, too, while winking at the audience, but he'd find it embarrassing and stupid

He would NOT get even close to what Hiromi did and is able to do.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Raymond Hall]

On Sunday, 17 July 2016 21:37:18 UTC+10, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 1:10:43 PM UTC+2, Raymond Hall wrote:
> > On Sunday, 17 July 2016 18:59:16 UTC+10, Gerard wrote:
> > > "Marc P." wrote in message
> > >
> > > I'm sorry to see this newsgroup has devolved to this, is trashing each other
> > > all that's left here?
> > >
> > > ========================
> > >
> > > Why do you say 'devolved'? It has been much worse here during many years.
> >
> > Yes, far better than in years gone by. However, getting to the point in question, I really believe that classical music and jazz are better explained as being focal points of an ellipse, and within the orbit that defines serious music. Even some rock/other genres get within this orbit at times. I wouldn't want to be without either, and just because this is called a classical recording group, shouldn't mean precluding other types of serious music being discussed simply because of a category name.

> Just because you like it doesn't make it classical. There are plenty of groups about Jazz.
>

Of course there are, but then instead of getting all uppity about Hiromi (for some reason), I doubt whether mainstream jazz connoisseurs would discuss Hiromi either, and they can be as sniffy if not more than classical fans. But her talents are clearly unique and astounding enough to be discussed in any serious music group.

Ray Hall, Taree

[ljk...@aol.com]

Yes, would-be jazz connoisseurs (I'm one of them) can be sniffy; I have been fairly sniffy on this thread in regard to Hiromi. That sniffiness can arise because some would-be jazz connoisseurs are just sniffy-defensive people; it also can arise because the artist we are listening to just smells funny to us, compared to the accomplished jazz artists with which we're familiar. I've linked to some stylistically various performances from several jazz pianists on this thread. If you don't hear a qualitative difference between their playing and that of Hiromi, so be it.

Larry Kart

[ljk...@aol.com]

As far as people of my background and tastes "getting all uppity about Hiromi (for some reason)," I think I can explain the reason for our response. You and I both love much so-called classical music. Let's say that at the next symphony concert you attend, the program is not what had been announced but instead consists wholly of symphonic (in instrumentation) film scores by John Williams.

You're not entirely pleased with this programme change to John Williams from the music of (pick any favorite of yours -- Haydn, Mozart, Ravel, Shostakovich, etc.), not only because you aren't hearing the music you'd expected to hear but also because you find that Williams' music goes about its business in a rather obvious (even at times cheesy) manner (this by comparison with the music of the classical composers you admire). During intermission you mutter words to that effect to a friend. A John Williams fan overhears what you've said and accuses you of being a snob.

You think, and perhaps even say, "No, I'm not being a snob. I just hear significant differences in both kind and quality between Williams music and the music of [pick your favorite classical composers]." Is it not that simple?

And if, as in the case of Hiromi, one of RMCR's most acute judges of quality in piano performance (DK) launches a thread by praising her work to the skies, while I (coming from a jazz as well as a classical background) feel quite otherwise after listening to her playing, why should I remain silent?

Larry Kart

[Herman]

On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 8:26:03 PM UTC+2, ljk...@aol.com wrote:

> You're not entirely pleased with this programme change to John Williams from the music of (pick any favorite of yours -- Haydn, Mozart, Ravel, Shostakovich, etc.), not only because you aren't hearing the music you'd expected to hear but also because you find that Williams' music goes about its business in a rather obvious (even at times cheesy) manner (this by comparison with the music of the classical composers you admire).

add to that cheesiness the winking to the audience.

[Herman]

On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 9:06:06 PM UTC+2, dk wrote:

>
> I don't think so. Herman, Gerard, gggg.... and s888... have
> lowered the collective IQ of this ng to unthinkable lows.

the usual ad hominem.

There is nothing wrong with my IQ. And maybe not with yours either, I have no idea. Nine out of ten you're posting links to youtubes with nubile women playing the piano. So it's kind of hard to tell.

What is pretty clear though, is you're bored with classical music as it is performed and recorded. Only intersted in the horse race element, but for musical fun you like jazz better.

So why waste your time here telling people they are dumb time wasters?

[Raymond Hall]

I'm not asking you to remain silent, and nor is anyone else. I've said earlier that Hiromi falls in between the cracks of two main genres, but I don't see why it is wrong to laud a very exceptional pianist. I prefer Powell, Evans, Monk, Tyner, and many others for a deeper musical experience, and especially the interplay between soloists (Tyner in the Coltrane quartet for example where his sound uniquely colours the experience).

Hiromi with reduced energy levels, may well achieve a greater musical depth in time, but the technical tools are all there.

I can well imagine Hiromi going down like a lead balloon in most jazz groups, as then they don't come any sniffier than there, so please allow her some time here. Thx.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Raymond Hall]

On Monday, 18 July 2016 04:55:56 UTC+10, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 8:26:03 PM UTC+2, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > You're not entirely pleased with this programme change to John Williams from the music of (pick any favorite of yours -- Haydn, Mozart, Ravel, Shostakovich, etc.), not only because you aren't hearing the music you'd expected to hear but also because you find that Williams' music goes about its business in a rather obvious (even at times cheesy) manner (this by comparison with the music of the classical composers you admire).
>
> add to that cheesiness the winking to the audience.
>

But they love it.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Herman]

On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 10:51:24 PM UTC+2, Raymond Hall wrote:

> >
> > add to that cheesiness the winking to the audience.
> >
>
> But they love it.
>

yeah, of course they do.

it's one of the many ways this is not classical music, and shouldn't be here.

[Herman]

DK likes to talk about other people's IQ (as if), but importing these bangers is the ultimate dumbing down of RMCR.

[Gerard]

"Herman" wrote in message
news:60d3cf73-de22-4f8b...@googlegroups.com...

==================

"Dumbing down" RMCR started long time ago.
The ultimate way of doing so (and making this ng so boring) is bulk posting
URLs by a few pianophiles.

[Herman]

On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 12:51:01 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:

> "Dumbing down" RMCR started long time ago.
> The ultimate way of doing so (and making this ng so boring) is bulk posting
> URLs by a few pianophiles.

Plus these people who always need to say X, Y or Z is The Best, or X Owns the Piece.

[O]

In article <6fe08ce2-8162-4192...@googlegroups.com>,

I don't expect there will be never any arguments here, but I am very
happy that lately the arguments are, for the most part, over music.

It's when they involve politics, or just mindless lashing out at
people, that this group "dumbs down" or "devolves." Keep up the musical
disagreements - that's our strength, not our weakness.

If you're not here for the musical discussion/disagreements, then what
are you here for?

-Owen

[Tony]

On Monday, 18 July 2016 15:19:58 UTC+3, O wrote:
>
> If you're not here for the musical discussion/disagreements, then what
> are you here for?
>
> -Owen

For picking up the 'X Owns this Piece' recording, and remaining quiet enough to agree.

[graham]

On 7/18/2016 6:55 PM, dk wrote:

> On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 4:39:29 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
>> On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 1:10:43 PM UTC+2, Raymond Hall wrote:
>>
>>> Even more to the point, Hiromi is far too gifted a pianist
>>> to be chained to playing classical scores.
>>
>> Am I to infer you think classical music is for ungifted musicians?
>

> By whose definition of "classical music"? Yours? TD's? Wolfgang
> Schneiderhan's? Shostakovich's? Xenakis'? There is no formally
> binding definition of what clssical music is, just some vague
> form of shared convention. To my ears, the random noises of
> Cage/Nono/Xenakis/Boulez/Stockhausen/Part/Glass/Reich are
> far less "classical" than Hiromi's intelligent and humorous
> paraphrases on Gershwin and Beethoven.

>
>> The fragment I saw was about banging loud and very fast and
>> goofing with the audience.
>

> Plenty of "classical" pianists do the same, don't they?

>
>> I bet Krystian Zimerman can play loud and fast and exact,
>> too, while winking at the audience, but he'd find it
>> embarrassing and stupid
>

> Krystian Zimerman is not a better pianist than Hiromi in
> any measurable way. He is dour, he is boring, he has no
> sense of rhythmic drive, and he sucks up to the composer.
>
> I'd rather take someone who makes live music while goofing
> with the audience over someone who sucks to the composer
> and worships the metronome.
>
> dk
>
Earl Hines was classically trained and still practised Mozart at the
height of his fame - to keep his fingers supple, so he said.

[number_six]

On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 5:55:23 PM UTC-7, dk wrote:
> On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 4:39:29 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:

> > On Sunday, July 17, 2016 at 1:10:43 PM UTC+2, Raymond Hall wrote:
> >
> > > Even more to the point, Hiromi is far too gifted a pianist
> > > to be chained to playing classical scores.
> >
> > Am I to infer you think classical music is for ungifted musicians?
>

> By whose definition of "classical music"? Yours? TD's? Wolfgang
> Schneiderhan's? Shostakovich's? Xenakis'? There is no formally
> binding definition of what clssical music is, just some vague
> form of shared convention. To my ears, the random noises of
> Cage/Nono/Xenakis/Boulez/Stockhausen/Part/Glass/Reich are
> far less "classical" than Hiromi's intelligent and humorous
> paraphrases on Gershwin and Beethoven.

> snip <


I enjoyed the youtube of Hiromi, thanks very much for posting. Have not yet tried the links Larry K posted, but I will do so.

As to whether it is classical, well, in any taxonomy, there will be disagreements between "lumpers" and "splitters". How many language families are there? Is Nancarrow classical? How about Paul Lansky?

To my ears, the music of Part, Glass, Reich is anything but random. Cage, Nono, some Stockhausen, I'll go along with that. Cage reveled in randomness. Part, Glass represent ordnung, not kaos.

[Herman]

On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 2:55:23 AM UTC+2, dk wrote:


>
> Krystian Zimerman is not a better pianist than Hiromi in
> any measurable way. He is dour, he is boring, he has no
> sense of rhythmic drive, and he sucks up to the composer.
>
> I'd rather take someone who makes live music while goofing
> with the audience over someone who sucks to the composer
> and worships the metronome.
>

you're just a bored old man with a tiny range of interests.

what you call "sucking [up] to the composer is part of the classical idiom. What Hiromi's doing in the fragment I saw is sucking up to the audience.

[Herman]

On Tuesday, July 19, 2016 at 5:21:22 AM UTC+2, dk wrote:

> > >
> > you're just a bored old man with a tiny range of interests.
>

> because they don't overlap with yours?
> such as high heels?

The repertoire you typically refer to fits on three or four cds. The virtuoso classical pianist material performed on competitions. The rest is "random" sound to you.

If you've been listening to this for sixty years or more, no wonder you're getting bored.

[Raymond Hall]

I'd like to see more classical pianists play cadenzas in a truly improvised way, on the spot, but many wouldn't be capable, or even if one assumes they are, then why don't they play them improvised as per the moment? And apart from anything else, a cadenza is no more than an opportunity for virtuosic display, so all the quibbles about pianists goofing with the audience, is of no moment. Oscar Peterson goofed with the audience in a subtle way. Some conductors goof as well in ways that play to an audience. Music is meant to be played in a live setting, with a real audience, and interaction should not be despised.

Hiromi upsets the purists here, many who are stuck in 18th and 19th century repertoire, played endlessly over and over again, and they intend to remain stuck. In 200 years time they will still be stuck.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Bozo]

>On Monday, July 18, 2016 at 7:55:23 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> Krystian Zimerman is not a better pianist than Hiromi in
> any measurable way. He is dour, he is boring, he has no
> sense of rhythmic drive, and he sucks up to the composer.

I would not be so harsh, but KZ is an enigma at times. I enjoyed his early DGG of the Schubert Impromptus , until I heard Horszowski play D.935. In a live, much later recital recital in Japan, he played the Gershwin Preludes as an encore, but as 3 separate encores , when would have been more effective as a set, total about 12 minutes, but maybe he was unsure how the audience would react to the first one.

[JohnGavin]

Thank you Dan for introducing Miss. Hiromi to many of us.

This is the piece I've enjoyed the most so far:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8qHOeu5Ops

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A general analysis of this thread is something I find helpful as well:

It started out wonderfully - introducing either a performer or music to many of us - one of the features of RMCR that has beneficial and enjoyable for me - I've learned alot over the years from recommendations here.

But what so often happens is a sort of deterioration - which results from taking the whole and cutting it into little pieces, and then bringing in the inevitable comparisons. The whole in this case is a bright talent, which really stands on its own, particularly for those who are receptive it.

Perhaps the problem started with Dan's title "The Best Pianist in the World". If this was an expression of enthusiastic affection or exuberance, then it is endearing - but if it was planted as a seed to invite controversy, or as they say in politics, throwing out a bit of red meat, it isn't so beneficial.

Some of the discussion was good, in that it related to the nature of talent itself - Ray stated something to the effect that Hiromi was too talented to be chained to a score. But isn't it more accurate to say that talent takes many shapes and forms? If a young aspiring musician has a passion for improvisation, aren't they going to hone their abilities, with thousands of hours of practice to the skill that attracts them? Were Rachmaninoff or Richter less talented because they "chained themselves to scores" rather then improvised?

I think the low point of many of these threads is the trashing of one performer in order to make the favored one look so much the greater. In this case Zimerman is the victim - yet the utter ridiculousness of this comparison brings to light how far the discussion strays from any sort of light or truth. Comparing those two is akin to comparing Art Tatum to Michelangeli. Two memorable players with completely different musical ideals and goals.

Appreciation and receptivity to different forms of music, art, belief or non-belief vary in as many ways as there are people. It's like a hall of mirrors - light reflects and refracts off them in a trillion different angles depending on how the light enters, and at what angles they are placed. The problem always seems to start when someone believes their morsel of truth is bigger and better than the next persons'.

Just my 2 cents.

[Frank Berger]

Just to quibble with the last part. It's OK "to believe
your morsel of truth is bigger and better than the next
person's." What matters is how you treat the person who has
a different opinion or belief than your own.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Gerard]

"JohnGavin" wrote in message
news:0b4e2392-f12e-491d...@googlegroups.com...

Perhaps the problem started with Dan's title "The Best Pianist in the
World". If this was an expression of enthusiastic affection or exuberance,
then it is endearing - but if it was planted as a seed to invite
controversy, or as they say in politics, throwing out a bit of red meat, it
isn't so beneficial.

==============

There have been thousands of threads and posts here about "the best this"
and "the best that".
I suppose that it is common knowledge that starting with "the best
pianist" - or another hyperbole - is another way of saying "do not take me
seriously".

[Al Eisner]

I came here for the waters.
--
Al Eisner

[Al Eisner]

And also for the aesthetic delight of viewing a post which nests a
string of twelve previous posts in order to add a few words at the
end. And ad infinitum.

Indeed, many pleasures here.
--
Al Eisner

[O]

In article
<alpine.LRH.2.00.1...@iris01.slac.stanford.edu>, Al

Also, the continuing work on the project: Let's make RMCR great again.

-Owen, carefully preserving all the previous posts for the benefit of
our posteriors.

[Mark Zimmer]

On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 4:03:23 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:

>
> > It's a show tune. I like it too (Balanchine!),
> > but that doesn't make it classical music.
>
> That seems a matter of convention, doesn't it?
> The boundary has never been clear, and it is
> getting fuzzier all the time. Are you going
> to tell us Ellington's Concerto for Cookie
> isn't "classical" either? Or Piazzolla's
> Concertango?
>
> Equally important, are Glass/Reich/Cage/Nono/
> Stockhausen/Xenakis/Part random noises
> "classical music"?


Indeed. By some lights offered up here, one would need to exclude significant chunks of Debussy, Ravel and Shostakovich from the scope of "classical music."

I consider Gershwin's stuff that he intended to be considered classical (certainly the Concerto in F, the Preludes, Cuban Overture, Rhapsody in Blue and yes Porgy & Bess) as classical. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me. We can argue about its virtues but that's not the same thing as whether classical music is an extremely large, and significantly flexible envelope that can encompass everything from Gregorian chant to Penderecki.

[Herman]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 5:13:58 PM UTC+2, Mark Zimmer wrote:
> On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 4:03:23 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
>
> >
> > > It's a show tune. I like it too (Balanchine!),
> > > but that doesn't make it classical music.
> >
> > That seems a matter of convention, doesn't it?
> > The boundary has never been clear, and it is
> > getting fuzzier all the time. Are you going
> > to tell us Ellington's Concerto for Cookie
> > isn't "classical" either? Or Piazzolla's
> > Concertango?
> >
> > Equally important, are Glass/Reich/Cage/Nono/
> > Stockhausen/Xenakis/Part random noises
> > "classical music"?
>
>
> Indeed. By some lights offered up here, one would need to exclude significant chunks of Debussy, Ravel and Shostakovich from the scope of "classical music."
>
> I consider Gershwin's stuff that he intended to be considered classical (certainly the Concerto in F, the Preludes, Cuban Overture, Rhapsody in Blue and yes Porgy & Bess) as classical. If it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me.

I totally agree. But 'I got rhythm' is a showtune, and wonderful as such.

Same with the twentieth century music that was ditched as 'random' noise. It's part of the classical tradition and shares its ambitions and values.

[Gerard]

"dk" wrote in message
news:c7d836a2-7b35-4049...@googlegroups.com...

When was RMCR "great" ?!?

=============

Must have been before your time.

[O]

In article <4a95ddb5-94e7-4dc1...@googlegroups.com>,

Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 5:13:58 PM UTC+2, Mark Zimmer wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 16, 2016 at 4:03:23 PM UTC-5, dk wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > It's a show tune. I like it too (Balanchine!),
> > > > but that doesn't make it classical music.
> > >
> > > That seems a matter of convention, doesn't it?
> > > The boundary has never been clear, and it is
> > > getting fuzzier all the time. Are you going
> > > to tell us Ellington's Concerto for Cookie
> > > isn't "classical" either? Or Piazzolla's
> > > Concertango?
> > >
> > > Equally important, are Glass/Reich/Cage/Nono/
> > > Stockhausen/Xenakis/Part random noises
> > > "classical music"?
> >
> >
> > Indeed. By some lights offered up here, one would need to exclude
> > significant chunks of Debussy, Ravel and Shostakovich from the scope of
> > "classical music."
> >
> > I consider Gershwin's stuff that he intended to be considered classical
> > (certainly the Concerto in F, the Preludes, Cuban Overture, Rhapsody in
> > Blue and yes Porgy & Bess) as classical. If it's good enough for him, it's
> > good enough for me.
>
> I totally agree. But 'I got rhythm' is a showtune, and wonderful as such.

You might say the same thing about Praetorius "Dances from
Terpsichore," but I doubt you'd find them labeled anything other than
classical.

Other than grist for this mill, it's hard to see what difference it
makes whether the classification is narrow or wide. Lately, I've been
enjoying Jo Stafford's song arrangement of Chopin's third etude ("No
Other Love") more than I enjoy hearing most pianists play it. Yes,
it's "Krossover Krap," but it's very good Krossover Krap.

>
> Same with the twentieth century music that was ditched as 'random' noise.
> It's part of the classical tradition and shares its ambitions and values.

I'll forever treasure my recording of the 187 greatest hits of the
twelve tone masters.

-Owen

[O]

In article <c7d836a2-7b35-4049...@googlegroups.com>, dk

<dan....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 5:17:19 AM UTC-7, O wrote:

> When was RMCR "great" ?!?

Just before you got here! You must have missed it!

-Owen

[JohnGavin]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 1:53:38 PM UTC-4, O wrote:

>
> I'll forever treasure my recording of the 187 greatest hits of the
> twelve tone masters.
>
> -Owen

If anyone blurs the line between labels, it's Kapustin IMO.
Not sure whether jazz aficionados would agree.

[Raymond Hall]

I'm an old purist, and there ain't nothing like Bix Beiderbecke, Johnny Dodds, Jelly Roll Morton, and all their contemporaries kicking up a storm. Then the beboppers came along and intellectualised jazz and buggered it all up ;)

Ray Hall, Taree

[Bozo]

Minimilist Evans :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spa5wWFYJqc (" Peace Piece",1958 recording,score )

[Fauxie NPR]

This is all so embarrassing. As it turns out, we're all very lucky to have lived during the time Hiromi was alive. I hope some of you don't consider what you wrote here wasted time in hindsight. Soul is all, and she has it. If not for that, there's no point. Some ppl here didn't know how to have fun. I hope in this last few years you've learned how to.

[raymond....@gmail.com]

!!?? Most here in this thread are well aware of Hiromi and her phenomenal talent, so I fail to see what you find so embarrassing.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Lawrence Kart]

Have you all heard Denny Zeitlin?

https://youtu.be/jb_fgmxuXDw

[Lawrence Kart]

[Lawrence Kart]

On Saturday, September 19, 2020 at 9:56:27 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Kart wrote:

Zeitlin in a gentler mood:

https://youtu.be/kPKNQrCVpSU

[Lawrence Kart]

[Andy Evans]

Brilliant technique and a really on fire trio. At first listen it's a "wow". And of course loads of personality.

But I couldn't get through a whole trio number without getting restless. The music doesn't add up - it doesn't have a connected development, it doesn't build. Exactly what I feel about Chick Corea, one of her mentors. But Ahmad Jamal, another mentor, is a whole different story. His solos have architecture, like all the greatest jazz soloists like Sonny Rollins, Coltrane, Keith Jarrett. They had creative flow - not just technique. In fact all great music is about creating this kind of flow that makes sense end to end and not just in moments and flashes.

[raymond....@gmail.com]

On Sunday, 20 September 2020 at 18:30:43 UTC+10, Andy Evans wrote:
> Brilliant technique and a really on fire trio. At first listen it's a "wow". And of course loads of personality.

> -
> But I couldn't get through a whole trio number without getting restless. The music doesn't -add up - it doesn't have a connected development, it doesn't build. Exactly what I feel about Chick Corea, one of her mentors. But Ahmad Jamal, another mentor, is a whole different story. His solos have architecture, like all the greatest jazz soloists like Sonny Rollins, Coltrane, Keith Jarrett. They had creative flow - not just technique. In fact all great music is
-about creating this kind of flow that makes sense end to end and not just in --moments and flashes.

Very true Andy. In her defence of course, there are a lot of wow moments, but I agree that her music doesn't quite satisfy as a unified entity. Her personality is also exuberant, and which would come across in a live setting, which would not transfer in a recording unless it was video.

Ray Hall, Taree

[raymond....@gmail.com]

> What is a "unified entity"? Are
> you trying to translate Kant
> into English?
>
> dk

A distinct, separate body of music (a piece), that has a sense of coherence from the beginning to the end.

It mustn't be taken too literally. I love Hiromi as much as anyone.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Henk vT]

On Monday, September 21, 2020 at 7:41:00 AM UTC+2, dk wrote:

> On Monday, September 21, 2020 at 12:56:07 PM UTC+8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, 20 September 2020 at 18:30:43 UTC+10, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > > > Brilliant technique and a really on fire trio. At first listen it's a "wow". And of course loads of personality.
> > > > > -
> > > > > But I couldn't get through a whole trio number without getting restless. The music doesn't -add up - it doesn't have a connected development, it doesn't build. Exactly what I feel about Chick Corea, one of her mentors. But Ahmad Jamal, another mentor, is a whole different story. His solos have architecture, like all the greatest jazz soloists like Sonny Rollins, Coltrane, Keith Jarrett. They had creative flow - not just technique. In fact all great music is
> > > > -about creating this kind of flow that makes sense end to end and not just in --moments and flashes.
> > > >
> > > > Very true Andy. In her defence of course, there are a lot of wow moments, but I agree that her music doesn't quite satisfy as a unified entity. Her personality is also exuberant, and which would come across in a live setting, which would not transfer in a recording unless it was video.
> > > >
> > > What is a "unified entity"? Are
> > > you trying to translate Kant
> > > into English?
> >

> > A distinct, separate body of music (a piece), that has a sense of coherence from the beginning to the end.
> >
> > It mustn't be taken too literally. I love Hiromi as much as anyone.
>

> Coherence is in the ears and in the
> head of the listener. The only piece
> of music that is completely coherent
> in and by itself is 4'33"

Certainly not in the ears: there is nothing to hear. In the head, yes, if you are a Kantian.

More down to earth: the coherence is given by the title. Glass tells us that the nows of his composition stop succeeding each other after 4'33".

Henk

[Henk vT]

On Monday, September 21, 2020 at 2:15:13 PM UTC+2, dk wrote:

> Glass ?!?!?!?!?
>
Cage, of course. <g>

Henk

[Owen]

People who live in Glass Cages shouldn't listen to Hiromi.

-Owen

[Henk vT]

> People who live in Glass Cages shouldn't listen to Hiromi.

<g> I agree, but it's very difficult to stop doing it.

Henk

[raymond....@gmail.com]

> > People who live in Glass Cages shouldn't listen to Hiromi.
> <g> I agree, but it's very difficult to stop doing it.
>
> Henk

https://youtu.be/s11ER546zBM

An amazing taste of Spain from Chick Corea and Hiromi.

Ray Hall, Taree