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Sokolov's Diabelli Variations
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Mandryka
Apr 18, 2013, 3:02:06 PM4/18/13
to
What do you guys think about this recording?
I know it's beautifully played and recorded. But somehow I can't get
my head round why he's playing the music like that. Maybe I'm too tied
to the idea of these variations as a quest, an arduous journey,
something I picked up from Maynard Solomon's book on late Beethoven.
Maybe they mean something else to Sokolov. But without a clearer grasp
of what he's seeing in the music I find the performance completely
elusive.
I know it's beautifully played and recorded. But somehow I can't get
my head round why he's playing the music like that. Maybe I'm too tied
to the idea of these variations as a quest, an arduous journey,
something I picked up from Maynard Solomon's book on late Beethoven.
Maybe they mean something else to Sokolov. But without a clearer grasp
of what he's seeing in the music I find the performance completely
elusive.
Bob Lombard
Apr 18, 2013, 3:11:25 PM4/18/13
to
notion fits.
Message has been deleted
Mandryka
Apr 18, 2013, 4:20:47 PM4/18/13
to
Each individual variation is played extremely well and often with
brave orginality. The problem is in the vision of the thing as a
whole, I'm convinced of it. The whole seems much much less than the
sum of the parts. i think I'm just missing his point.
Mandryka
Apr 18, 2013, 4:21:37 PM4/18/13
to
On Apr 18, 9:20 pm, John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Judging music based upon what someone claims you should hear in it is
> a fool's game.
> The critical bullshit around Beethoven is among the worst of this sort
> of thing. Great
> music is not meant to be "explained."
Aee above.
> a fool's game.
> The critical bullshit around Beethoven is among the worst of this sort
> of thing. Great
> music is not meant to be "explained."
Aee above.
John Thomas
Apr 18, 2013, 4:27:29 PM4/18/13
to
Bob Lombard
Apr 18, 2013, 7:41:01 PM4/18/13
to
Diabelli presented a waltz to the contestants, tasking them to compose a
variation on it. Beethoven took the bit in his teeth, saying
"Variation! I will give him /variations; I will turn this silly little
tune every which way //but loose/.//And he did so. Along the way, he
got 'into' what he was doing, and something very good resulted. The
listener may even be tempted to 'hear' some low-level continuity of
import among the later variations. You should feel free to do so, based
on Sokolov's interpretation, even if he is really 'seeing' a series of
vignettes.
It's your call, Mandryka.
William Sommerwerck
Apr 18, 2013, 8:11:16 PM4/18/13
to
> Each individual variation is played extremely well and often
> with brave orginality. The problem is in the vision of the thing
> as a whole, I'm convinced of it. The whole seems much much
> less than the sum of the parts. I think I'm just missing his point.
> with brave orginality. The problem is in the vision of the thing
> as a whole, I'm convinced of it. The whole seems much much
Or the pianist is.
I've always found Beethoven's variations difficult. They're not like Brahms'
or Rachmaninov's, which are easy to follow and display an "obvious"
progression. (I'm pointedly ignoring RegeR.)
I suspect that, for both of us, the little light bulb will someday go on, and
we'll "get" what Beethoven was doing.
whiskynsplash
Apr 18, 2013, 9:12:25 PM4/18/13
to
On Apr 18, 7:11 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:
Beethoven's variations difficult??? What complete nonsense! What about
the many variation-based movements in the piano sonatas and the other
sonatas? Try the "Eroica" variations on the "Creatures of Prometheus"
theme, both for the piano and the last movement of the Third Symphony.
Beethoven's variation style became progressively deeper and more
profound as he aged. The earlier "ornamental" variation style based on
Haydn and Mozart became one where selected and specific aspects of the
theme are transformed into something more profound. One of the most
greatest sets of variations in Western Classical Music is the second
(and last) movement of the very last -- the 32nd Piano Sonata in c
minor, Op. 111. The Arietta and Variations is therefore the last piano
sonata movement he ever wrote. Since you seem to be literary inclined
try reading the chapter in Thomas Mann's "Dr. Faustus" where he
describes a music class or discussion given by a character, Wendell
Kretzschmar.
wrote:
the many variation-based movements in the piano sonatas and the other
sonatas? Try the "Eroica" variations on the "Creatures of Prometheus"
theme, both for the piano and the last movement of the Third Symphony.
Beethoven's variation style became progressively deeper and more
profound as he aged. The earlier "ornamental" variation style based on
Haydn and Mozart became one where selected and specific aspects of the
theme are transformed into something more profound. One of the most
greatest sets of variations in Western Classical Music is the second
(and last) movement of the very last -- the 32nd Piano Sonata in c
minor, Op. 111. The Arietta and Variations is therefore the last piano
sonata movement he ever wrote. Since you seem to be literary inclined
try reading the chapter in Thomas Mann's "Dr. Faustus" where he
describes a music class or discussion given by a character, Wendell
Kretzschmar.
Mandryka
Apr 19, 2013, 12:47:10 AM4/19/13
to
of the variations.
Mandryka
Apr 19, 2013, 12:54:13 AM4/19/13
to
On Apr 19, 1:11 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:
I think Whiskynsplash's reply to you is justified, but I agree with
you about op 120. For me Maynard Solomons' metaphor of a journey with
points of repose was very helpful. For example, the metaphor made me
focus on that final variation, the minuet. I think it's interesting
that Beethoven chose to end the piece like that. It's as if he goes
beyond the transcendent, the spiritual, into something more humane.
But this way of thinking doesn't seem to work for Sokolov's, and I'm
really reluctant to say it's just a bad performance. He's a fine
musician who has thought abou it a lot more than me.
wrote:
you about op 120. For me Maynard Solomons' metaphor of a journey with
points of repose was very helpful. For example, the metaphor made me
focus on that final variation, the minuet. I think it's interesting
that Beethoven chose to end the piece like that. It's as if he goes
beyond the transcendent, the spiritual, into something more humane.
But this way of thinking doesn't seem to work for Sokolov's, and I'm
really reluctant to say it's just a bad performance. He's a fine
musician who has thought abou it a lot more than me.
MiNe 109
Apr 19, 2013, 7:44:32 AM4/19/13
to
In article
<b763a22f-f313-4c30...@e13g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
thread.
Stephen
<b763a22f-f313-4c30...@e13g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 1:11�am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > > Each individual variation is played extremely well and often
> > > with brave orginality. The problem is in the vision of the thing
> > > as a whole, I'm convinced of it. The whole seems much much
> > > less than the sum of the parts. I think I'm just missing his point.
> >
> > Or the pianist is.
> >
> > I've always found Beethoven's variations difficult. They're not like
> > Brahms'
> > or Rachmaninov's, which are easy to follow and display an "obvious"
> > progression. (I'm pointedly ignoring RegeR.)
> >
> > I suspect that, for both of us, the little light bulb will someday go on,
> > and
> > we'll "get" what Beethoven was doing.
>
> I think Whiskynsplash's reply to you is justified, but I agree with
> you about op 120. For me Maynard Solomons' metaphor of a journey with
> points of repose was very helpful. For example, the metaphor made me
> focus on that final variation, the minuet. I think it's interesting
> that Beethoven chose to end the piece like that. It's as if he goes
> beyond the transcendent, the spiritual, into something more humane.
Good thing Mois�s Kaufman's �33 Variations� is a play and not a rmcr
> On Apr 19, 1:11�am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > > Each individual variation is played extremely well and often
> > > with brave orginality. The problem is in the vision of the thing
> > > as a whole, I'm convinced of it. The whole seems much much
> > > less than the sum of the parts. I think I'm just missing his point.
> >
> > Or the pianist is.
> >
> > I've always found Beethoven's variations difficult. They're not like
> > Brahms'
> > or Rachmaninov's, which are easy to follow and display an "obvious"
> > progression. (I'm pointedly ignoring RegeR.)
> >
> > I suspect that, for both of us, the little light bulb will someday go on,
> > and
> > we'll "get" what Beethoven was doing.
>
> I think Whiskynsplash's reply to you is justified, but I agree with
> you about op 120. For me Maynard Solomons' metaphor of a journey with
> points of repose was very helpful. For example, the metaphor made me
> focus on that final variation, the minuet. I think it's interesting
> that Beethoven chose to end the piece like that. It's as if he goes
> beyond the transcendent, the spiritual, into something more humane.
thread.
Stephen
William Sommerwerck
Apr 19, 2013, 12:10:29 PM4/19/13
to
>>> Each individual variation is played extremely well and often
>>> with brave orginality. The problem is in the vision of the thing
>>> as a whole, I'm convinced of it. The whole seems much much
>>> less than the sum of the parts. I think I'm just missing his point.
>> Or the pianist is.
>> I've always found Beethoven's variations difficult. They're not
>> like Brahms' or Rachmaninov's, which are easy to follow and display
>> an "obvious" progression. (I'm pointedly ignoring RegeR.)
>> I suspect that, for both of us, the little light bulb will someday go on,
>> and we'll "get" what Beethoven was doing.
> Beethoven's variations difficult??? What complete nonsense! What about
> the many variation-based movements in the piano sonatas and the other
> sonatas? Try the "Eroica" variations on the "Creatures of Prometheus"
> theme, both for the piano and the last movement of the Third Symphony.
I'm thinking specifically of the stand-alone variations -- including the
>>> with brave orginality. The problem is in the vision of the thing
>>> as a whole, I'm convinced of it. The whole seems much much
>>> less than the sum of the parts. I think I'm just missing his point.
>> Or the pianist is.
>> I've always found Beethoven's variations difficult. They're not
>> like Brahms' or Rachmaninov's, which are easy to follow and display
>> an "obvious" progression. (I'm pointedly ignoring RegeR.)
>> I suspect that, for both of us, the little light bulb will someday go on,
>> and we'll "get" what Beethoven was doing.
> Beethoven's variations difficult??? What complete nonsense! What about
> the many variation-based movements in the piano sonatas and the other
> sonatas? Try the "Eroica" variations on the "Creatures of Prometheus"
> theme, both for the piano and the last movement of the Third Symphony.
Diabelli.
> Beethoven's variation style became progressively deeper and more
> profound as he aged. The earlier "ornamental" variation style based on
> Haydn and Mozart became one where selected and specific aspects of the
> theme are transformed into something more profound. One of the most
> greatest sets of variations in Western Classical Music is the second
> (and last) movement of the very last -- the 32nd Piano Sonata in c
> minor, Op. 111. The Arietta and Variations is therefore the last piano
> sonata movement he ever wrote. Since you seem to be literary inclined
> try reading the chapter in Thomas Mann's "Dr. Faustus" where he
> describes a music class or discussion given by a character, Wendell
> Kretzschmar.
I just listened to 32.2, and it's pretty easy to follow. I don't think that
Goode gets the "cantabile" part of it very well, though.
The following is the Arkiv essay on the Diabelli Variations, from an
uncredited writer:
In 1819, the music publisher Anton Diabelli decided to raise money for the
family members of soldiers killed in recent wars. He wrote a theme in hopes of
inducing some of the leading composers of the day to contribute variations,
planning to publish the entire set. In all, he sent his melody to 51 composers
in Austria, one of whom was Beethoven (another was Schubert). Beethoven's
initial inclination was to turn down the project, though eventually he
submitted a variation. But the composer soon became intrigued at the prospect
of writing a larger set of variations on Diabelli's theme. In the end, he
turned out a nearly hour-long work with more variations than any other of his
works in the form. This composition makes a worthy companion piece for Bach's
mighty Goldberg Variations.
Diabelli's theme is lively and rather simple, and while many have derided it
as bland and even stupid, it does have a rather naive charm, with its little
turns and its rhythmic drive. This was just the kind of simple theme that had
inspired the composer's variation thinking in the past. One example is
Beethoven's Seven Variations on "Kind, willst du schlafen" WoO 75, from 1799.
He seemed to regard such weak or trite melodic creations as skeletal outlines
whose notes begged to be infused with personality and color.
There are several key features to the method Beethoven used in fashioning the
Diabelli Variations. For one thing, he tended to retain in each variation some
aspect of the previous one. Some have argued that each item is arranged almost
randomly, that they could be reordered to make the work more effective. Yet
one finds both delightful commentaries on the variation just gone by and an
overarching structure to the whole set. The first variation, marked Alla
Marcia, is a deliberately pompous and parodistic take on the theme. It is in a
slow tempo; the succeeding variations, with a mixture of fast and slow,
gradually work toward a climactic release reached in Variation 10. After that,
the music relaxes for a time. Other patterns of peaks and valleys are
discernible, with the greatest of the climactic episodes occurring with the
fugue near the end of the work.
The work's final moments share, in Joseph Kerman's words, the "visionary aura"
of the variations that conclude the Piano Sonata No. 32 in C minor. Other
noteworthy variations include No. 14, marked Grave e maestoso, a most profound
entry and one of the longest, lasting around four minutes. Both Variations 23
and 24 are powerful panels, too, the former a brilliant, energetic creation
and the latter divulging a somewhat Bach-like character. Several times
Beethoven explores chromatic harmonies that seem far beyond even Schubert's
prescient works of the 1820s.
For all its inspired artistry the work has typically proven difficult for
listeners. <AHEM!> Like the "Hammerklavier" Sonata, No. 29, it is both long
and extremely concentrated. Some publishers and pianists have tampered with
the score in an effort to make it more listenable, but their efforts tend to
weaken what is a somewhat intellectual masterpiece.
This work was first published in 1823 in Vienna, bearing a dedication to
Antonie Brentano (sometimes believed to be the "Immortal Beloved" of an
earlier phase of the composer's life). A typical performance of this
composition lasts about 50 to 58 minutes.
MiNe 109
Apr 19, 2013, 3:57:45 PM4/19/13
to
In article
<5372d401-e2e2-411a...@j14g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
> least? :) )
It is in part the story of a musicologist trying to understand
Beethoven's persistence in composing new variations in light of the
supposed low quality of the original theme and features scenes of
Beethoven, Diabelli and Schindler as well as scenes set in the Beethoven
archive in Bonn.
The musicologist discovers the problems obvious to those with some
musicological training, ie, Schindler's unreliability, and some details
not so obvious, such as the numerous soup spatters on Beethoven's
notepaper.
The play has been described as a cross between Edson�s Wit and
Schaffer�s Amadeus.
Stephen
<5372d401-e2e2-411a...@j14g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
Lena <emsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Good thing Mois�s Kaufman's �33 Variations� is a play and not a rmcr
> > thread.
> >
>
> Please elaborate! :) (I hope the play has amusing moments, at
> > Good thing Mois�s Kaufman's �33 Variations� is a play and not a rmcr
> > thread.
> >
>
> least? :) )
It is in part the story of a musicologist trying to understand
Beethoven's persistence in composing new variations in light of the
supposed low quality of the original theme and features scenes of
Beethoven, Diabelli and Schindler as well as scenes set in the Beethoven
archive in Bonn.
The musicologist discovers the problems obvious to those with some
musicological training, ie, Schindler's unreliability, and some details
not so obvious, such as the numerous soup spatters on Beethoven's
notepaper.
The play has been described as a cross between Edson�s Wit and
Schaffer�s Amadeus.
Stephen
Mandryka
Apr 19, 2013, 4:32:12 PM4/19/13
to
On Apr 19, 8:15 pm, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> could disagree with so many pianists... :)
>
> I might see the DVs as an 'arduous quest', but only if 'arduous quest'
> equals going around in something like a spiral and taking pratfalls of
> high gymnastic originality...
>
> Without getting really into it: the piece might open up better if the
> pianist isn't thoroughly focused on narrative, on the extraction of
> maximum melodic sweetness/cuteness (??!!), or on attitudes of varying
> solemnity, but has an appreciation of fun, and, also, of cleverness
> for its own sake. Late Beethoven the Imp is quite a prolific
> composer. He can appear in the most significant and apparently
> serious piece (Missa Solemnis, the 9th symphony), and in parts of the
> DVs, he's going about fairly unchecked.
>
> So I think you might be supposed to enjoy yourself during the DVs,
> even laugh; not just wait for it to end. If a listener is bored
> instead, maybe it's a case of pianistic pinheadedness or listener
> sobriety. Which happens.
>
> Lena
I've never heard of before called Daria Rabotkina. Anyway, I've been
playing it all day and I've been nicely entertained by it.
The reason Sokolov's interesting to disagree about is that the
performance is so original. You know, it's not bland in any way. And
given that he's a pretty fine pianist I thought it would be fun to get
clearer about what he's doing and why.
> On Apr 18, 1:20 pm, Mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 18, 8:11 pm, Bob Lombard <monty.pel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 4/18/2013 3:02 PM, Mandryka wrote:> What do you guys think about this recording?
>
> > > > I know it's beautifully played and recorded. But somehow I can't get
> > > > my head round why he's playing the music like that. Maybe I'm too tied
> > > > to the idea of these variations as a quest, an arduous journey,
> > > > something I picked up from Maynard Solomon's book on late Beethoven.
> > > > Maybe they mean something else to Sokolov. But without a clearer grasp
> > > > of what he's seeing in the music I find the performance completely
> > > > elusive.
>
> > > Maynard Solomon was mostly FOS, and the 'quest, an arduous journey'
> > > notion fits.
>
> > Well maybe. But we still have Sokolov's Diabellies to understand.
>
> I don't know why the focus is on disagreeing with Sokolov, when one
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 18, 8:11 pm, Bob Lombard <monty.pel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 4/18/2013 3:02 PM, Mandryka wrote:> What do you guys think about this recording?
>
> > > > I know it's beautifully played and recorded. But somehow I can't get
> > > > my head round why he's playing the music like that. Maybe I'm too tied
> > > > to the idea of these variations as a quest, an arduous journey,
> > > > something I picked up from Maynard Solomon's book on late Beethoven.
> > > > Maybe they mean something else to Sokolov. But without a clearer grasp
> > > > of what he's seeing in the music I find the performance completely
> > > > elusive.
>
> > > Maynard Solomon was mostly FOS, and the 'quest, an arduous journey'
> > > notion fits.
>
> > Well maybe. But we still have Sokolov's Diabellies to understand.
>
> could disagree with so many pianists... :)
>
> I might see the DVs as an 'arduous quest', but only if 'arduous quest'
> equals going around in something like a spiral and taking pratfalls of
> high gymnastic originality...
>
> Without getting really into it: the piece might open up better if the
> pianist isn't thoroughly focused on narrative, on the extraction of
> maximum melodic sweetness/cuteness (??!!), or on attitudes of varying
> solemnity, but has an appreciation of fun, and, also, of cleverness
> for its own sake. Late Beethoven the Imp is quite a prolific
> composer. He can appear in the most significant and apparently
> serious piece (Missa Solemnis, the 9th symphony), and in parts of the
> DVs, he's going about fairly unchecked.
>
> So I think you might be supposed to enjoy yourself during the DVs,
> even laugh; not just wait for it to end. If a listener is bored
> instead, maybe it's a case of pianistic pinheadedness or listener
> sobriety. Which happens.
>
> Lena
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Each individual variation is played extremely well and often with
> > brave orginality. The problem is in the vision of the thing as a
> > whole, I'm convinced of it. The whole seems much much less than the
> > sum of the parts. i think I'm just missing his point.
I found one which I think you may enjoy on spotify, Lena, by someone
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Each individual variation is played extremely well and often with
> > brave orginality. The problem is in the vision of the thing as a
> > whole, I'm convinced of it. The whole seems much much less than the
> > sum of the parts. i think I'm just missing his point.
I've never heard of before called Daria Rabotkina. Anyway, I've been
playing it all day and I've been nicely entertained by it.
The reason Sokolov's interesting to disagree about is that the
performance is so original. You know, it's not bland in any way. And
given that he's a pretty fine pianist I thought it would be fun to get
clearer about what he's doing and why.
Message has been deleted
MiNe 109
Apr 19, 2013, 7:20:24 PM4/19/13
to
In article
<14be4b46-b0fd-487b...@j14g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
Lena <emsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 12:57�pm, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <5372d401-e2e2-411a-8df4-d7d9be1b1...@j14g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
> of note grouping (and, of course, on the cognition of deeper musical
> structures) has been only indistinctly appreciated in current
> discourse. I mean, heretofore. (Ymmv.)
> about intra-string quartet psychological activity. (Have you seen the
> play?)
Yes. Best of all is how the playwright incorporates a live performance
of the variations. In Austin the pianist was Anton Nel, locally beloved.
The musicologist suffers from ALS, a challenge and opportunity for the
actress (Jane Fonda on Broadway, Beth Broderick in Austin).
Stephen
<14be4b46-b0fd-487b...@j14g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
Lena <emsw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 19, 12:57�pm, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:
> > In article
> > <5372d401-e2e2-411a-8df4-d7d9be1b1...@j14g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > �Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Good thing Mois�s Kaufman's �33 Variations� is a play and not a rmcr
> > > > thread.
> >
> > > Please elaborate! :) � (I hope the play has amusing moments, at
> > > least? :) )
> >
> > It is in part the story of a musicologist trying to understand
> > Beethoven's persistence in composing new variations in light of the
> > supposed low quality of the original theme and features scenes of
> > Beethoven, Diabelli and Schindler as well as scenes set in the Beethoven
> > archive in Bonn.
> >
>
> All right! Interesting; thank you.
> > �Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Good thing Mois�s Kaufman's �33 Variations� is a play and not a rmcr
> > > > thread.
> >
> > > Please elaborate! :) � (I hope the play has amusing moments, at
> > > least? :) )
> >
> > It is in part the story of a musicologist trying to understand
> > Beethoven's persistence in composing new variations in light of the
> > supposed low quality of the original theme and features scenes of
> > Beethoven, Diabelli and Schindler as well as scenes set in the Beethoven
> > archive in Bonn.
> >
>
>
> > The musicologist discovers the problems obvious to those with some
> > musicological training, ie, Schindler's unreliability, and some details
> > not so obvious, such as the numerous soup spatters on Beethoven's
> > notepaper.
> >
>
> (laugh) The importance of potato stains on a listener's perception
> > The musicologist discovers the problems obvious to those with some
> > musicological training, ie, Schindler's unreliability, and some details
> > not so obvious, such as the numerous soup spatters on Beethoven's
> > notepaper.
> >
>
> of note grouping (and, of course, on the cognition of deeper musical
> structures) has been only indistinctly appreciated in current
> discourse. I mean, heretofore. (Ymmv.)
>
> > The play has been described as a cross between Edson�s Wit and
> > Schaffer�s Amadeus.
> >
>
> OK... At any rate, it sounds kind of better than the recent movie
> > The play has been described as a cross between Edson�s Wit and
> > Schaffer�s Amadeus.
> >
>
> about intra-string quartet psychological activity. (Have you seen the
> play?)
Yes. Best of all is how the playwright incorporates a live performance
of the variations. In Austin the pianist was Anton Nel, locally beloved.
The musicologist suffers from ALS, a challenge and opportunity for the
actress (Jane Fonda on Broadway, Beth Broderick in Austin).
Stephen
Mandryka
Apr 20, 2013, 2:21:47 AM4/20/13
to
On Apr 19, 10:06 pm, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I found one which I think you may enjoy on spotify, Lena, by someone
> > I've never heard of before called Daria Rabotkina. Anyway, I've been
> > playing it all day and I've been nicely entertained by it.
>
> All right, thank you very much; I'll try it.
> > I found one which I think you may enjoy on spotify, Lena, by someone
> > I've never heard of before called Daria Rabotkina. Anyway, I've been
> > playing it all day and I've been nicely entertained by it.
>
And while you're at it you may like to try Michael Brown's recording
of D850 and Debussy Etudes. I first got to know about Michael Brown
through an excellent understated Davidsbundlertanze which is
downloadable here:
http://boomboomsky.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/schumann-from-cleveland-intl-piano.html
Both these recordings are from something called "The Victor Elmaleh
Collection", apparently Victor Elmaleh is an Americal plutocrat who
likes piano music. Anyway, he seems to have interesting taste, for a
plutocrat.
>. . . a more "Classical" reading of the DV; including a
> more detached phrasing style, where contrasts are more pronounced.
Yes I do too. Just a point about Rosen's DVs in this regard.
You know how Leonhardt and other Dutch harpsichordists articulated
baroque keyboard music into small cells. Well I think that's what
Rosen does in the Diabelli Variations, and this gives the performance
a special spikey feeling, which I very much like.
>
> I rather like Pollini, which I only discovered idiotically recently.
> I don't know how you'd feel about it, but I think we share an
> increasing appreciation of the guy's recordings, so you might try it.
> (If you haven't.)
Oh yes. I too discovered Pollini's recently and I like it a lot, even
in the C minor variations at the end.
> Lena
>
> PS. Oh, and if you haven't heard them, try to get hold of both
> Harnoncourt I and Herreweghe I in Missa Solemnis... Both are top of
> the pile recordings, for me. (There are others, but not ones that
> recent; one problem is that I absolutely can't stand operatic singing
> in this mass.) Of the two Herreweghes, Herreweghe I has clearer
> balances, smaller forces, and more distinct, "raw" wind/brass timbres
> than Herreweghe II, and it combines softness, power, urgency, and
> cheerful energy (the Credo); it's a very nice package.
Will do. I have Harnoncourt 1 but I can't remember much about
Herreweghe 1. I tend to be a bit put off by cheerful energy though :)
I totally agree with you about operatic singing
Bob Lombard
Apr 20, 2013, 11:45:29 AM4/20/13
to
On 4/20/2013 10:55 AM, Lena wrote:
> [Moisés Kaufman's "33 Variations"]
> it. (I think I remember something vague about Jane Fonda playing the
> musicologist; from reading the NY Times, probably. But I must have
> done some expert skimming through the article itself...)
>
> Lena
>
>
>
Hanoi Jane having polluted the play, i shall avoid it assiduously.
> [Moisés Kaufman's "33 Variations"]
>
>>> (Have you seen the play?)
>> Yes. Best of all is how the playwright incorporates a live performance
>> of the variations. In Austin the pianist was Anton Nel, locally beloved.
>>
> It would be great to see this performed. Thanks for writing about
>>> (Have you seen the play?)
>> Yes. Best of all is how the playwright incorporates a live performance
>> of the variations. In Austin the pianist was Anton Nel, locally beloved.
>>
> it. (I think I remember something vague about Jane Fonda playing the
> musicologist; from reading the NY Times, probably. But I must have
> done some expert skimming through the article itself...)
>
> Lena
>
>
>
Hanoi Jane having polluted the play, i shall avoid it assiduously.
John Wiser
Apr 20, 2013, 12:36:59 PM4/20/13
to
"Bob Lombard" <monty....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mKyct.114931$JR....@en-nntp-16.dc1.easynews.com...
jdw
news:mKyct.114931$JR....@en-nntp-16.dc1.easynews.com...
> On 4/20/2013 10:55 AM, Lena wrote:
>> On Apr 19, 4:20 pm, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:
>>> In article
>> [Mois�s Kaufman's "33 Variations"]
>> On Apr 19, 4:20 pm, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:
>>> In article
>>
>>>> (Have you seen the play?)
>>> Yes. Best of all is how the playwright incorporates a live performance
>>> of the variations. In Austin the pianist was Anton Nel, locally beloved.
>>>
>> It would be great to see this performed. Thanks for writing about
>> it. (I think I remember something vague about Jane Fonda playing the
>> musicologist; from reading the NY Times, probably. But I must have
>> done some expert skimming through the article itself...)
>>
>>
>>>> (Have you seen the play?)
>>> Yes. Best of all is how the playwright incorporates a live performance
>>> of the variations. In Austin the pianist was Anton Nel, locally beloved.
>>>
>> It would be great to see this performed. Thanks for writing about
>> it. (I think I remember something vague about Jane Fonda playing the
>> musicologist; from reading the NY Times, probably. But I must have
>> done some expert skimming through the article itself...)
>>
>>
> Hanoi Jane having polluted the play, i shall avoid it assiduously.
>
Thanks for your kneejerk contribution.
>
jdw
David Fox
Apr 20, 2013, 1:19:17 PM4/20/13
to
sentence, a paragraph, or even a book. If it were Beethoven would have
done so and wouldn't have needed to compose a piece of music.
Musicologists and critics are adept at pointing out craft and structure,
but these are facets - they are not meaning. We experience the meaning
and that's what gives a piece its lasting appeal. If it were not there
or if it were imperfectly expressed we would lose interest in the piece
over time. For example, how often do we discuss or listen to another
set of late Beethoven piano variations, the Variations on Folk Songs Op.
107?
As broadly appealing as aspects of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony are, a
good part of its majesty is a sense of an inexpressible meaning that
just exceeds our grasp. I've read quotes from many conductors over the
years who have performed the piece to wide acclaim over many decades but
still confess in moments of candor that they have no idea what the piece
really means. Conductors as wide-ranging in approach and era as
Toscanini and Salonen have expressed this thought in almost these exact
words. This profundity combined with elusiveness defines the Late
Quartets as well.
DF
Bob Lombard
Apr 20, 2013, 1:21:16 PM4/20/13
to
approximately 40 years standing. Any mention of that unindicted traitor
can induce nausea; wouldn't wish to barf while attending a performance
of the play.
bl
bl
David Fox
Apr 20, 2013, 1:41:51 PM4/20/13
to
in words what I think this piece is "about" to me.
Like many great works of art, it operates on many levels. The surface
level is quite straightforward. We all know the setup. Diabelli
published a waltz and entreated composers to write variations.
Beethoven agreed to participate as he had a long-standing professional
relationship and friendship with Diabelli.
The work has a great deal of humor because Beethoven clearly perceives
the source material itself as banal and trivial. He mixes and mashes
and squashes it all around through fun-house mirrors, many of which
amplify the banality and triviality to epic levels (this is one of the
reasons why I personally believe the performer's sense of humor and
sense of play are essential). But in doing so something else starts to
happen. There is a creeping transfiguration from the banal to the
profound. Was this Beethoven's design from the outset or did he stumble
upon it as he went? Who knows. The work itself seems to express
something about the process of transfiguration itself and there's
something about it that (when properly performs) speaks to the audience
at a deeply spiritual level.
I don't think Beethoven is saying anything as simple and trite as the
following, but here is a way that the piece resonates with me. Many
elements of our everyday life seem mundane and trivial, but these
elements combine to weave a fabric of something mystical and profound -
life itself. Don't we all reflect back on what at the time were very
simple moments that mean so much more to us now? Isn't that what
mementos and certain photographs convey to us as well? Late Beethoven is
reflective and is never too far away from notions of mortality. The
Diabelli Variations are much, much more than this simple concept, but
this simple concept is a very emotionally powerful, profound one.
DF
Bob Lombard
Apr 20, 2013, 1:43:56 PM4/20/13
to
that knowledge to be transmitted?
David Fox
Apr 20, 2013, 2:53:54 PM4/20/13
to
performer needs to construct an interpretation. This is their personal
game plan to deal with a given piece for a given performance. With a
masterpiece there is rarely one way to go, but a performer much chose a
single path and put forth its case. Even Beethoven's Sixth is more than
simply a day in the country. In the moment a performer needs to be
convinced of his case in order to be convincing. Leonard Bernstein
would often speak of “becoming the composer” in the moment. An
intelligent performer constantly re-addresses his game plan in a
life-long process of artistic growth.
That being said, Late Beethoven has a particular way of humbling a
performer. The musician is left on stage with their game plan, often
for more than an hour, and Beethoven has a way of taunting a performer
with the futility of his ambitions. Toscanini uttered his quote about
Beethoven's Ninth immediately after leaving the podium. A few years ago
I heard Stephen Kovacevich give a brilliant performance of Op. 110.
Afterwards an audience member asked him what Beethoven meant by the
eerie inversion of the theme which announces the coda. “It's truly
horrifying, isn't it?” he answered. “We simply have no idea what it
means.” This is after having performed the piece for 50 years as well
as anyone ever has.
DF
MiNe 109
Apr 20, 2013, 4:17:11 PM4/20/13
to
In article <mKyct.114931$JR....@en-nntp-16.dc1.easynews.com>,
Your loss. The Austin performance featured an actress most famous as a
witch so you wouldn't have liked that either.
Stephen
witch so you wouldn't have liked that either.
Stephen
Mandryka
Apr 21, 2013, 1:42:15 AM4/21/13
to
part of it for me too.
td
Apr 21, 2013, 6:28:59 AM4/21/13
to
Would that be the Jane Fonda who treated with the government in Hanoi we now have established relations with?
Does that mean that that Jane Fonda was politically 30 years ahead of her own government?
Does that mean that Bob has not followed said Jane's exercise videos and is now a fat slob?
TD
Does that mean that that Jane Fonda was politically 30 years ahead of her own government?
Does that mean that Bob has not followed said Jane's exercise videos and is now a fat slob?
TD
Johannes Roehl
Apr 21, 2013, 7:17:22 AM4/21/13
to
Am 18.04.2013 21:02, schrieb Mandryka:
> What do you guys think about this recording?
>
> I know it's beautifully played and recorded. But somehow I can't get
> my head round why he's playing the music like that. Maybe I'm too tied
> to the idea of these variations as a quest, an arduous journey,
> something I picked up from Maynard Solomon's book on late Beethoven.
> Maybe they mean something else to Sokolov. But without a clearer grasp
> of what he's seeing in the music I find the performance completely
> elusive.
As others have said, Sokolov is rather slow and weighty, but impressive
> What do you guys think about this recording?
>
> I know it's beautifully played and recorded. But somehow I can't get
> my head round why he's playing the music like that. Maybe I'm too tied
> to the idea of these variations as a quest, an arduous journey,
> something I picked up from Maynard Solomon's book on late Beethoven.
> Maybe they mean something else to Sokolov. But without a clearer grasp
> of what he's seeing in the music I find the performance completely
> elusive.
in its way. I don't see the variations as particulary "arduous", I
rather agree with Lena (and others) that it is to a large extent a
quirky, witty, humorous piece. Of course with extreme contrasts and also
containing wistful and sublime pieces.
I also don't think there is anything wrong with listening to the piece
as a series of "miniatures" without bothering too much about them being
all variations of a theme. While it is easier for me to perceive traces
of the theme in most of the Diabellis than e.g. in the Goldbergs (where
I need a score and commentary to detect the bass lines or whatever from
the aria), I don't really think this is all that important for enjoying
and appreciating the music.
I have about 8 recordings, but can't assess them right now. I got to
know the piece in Gulda's very fast and drily recorded interpretation
(re-issued on eloquence). This may be quite short on poetry and
sublimity in the slower pieces, but captures some other aspects very
well. Katchen's (only in a big box, IIRC) is also on the fast side, but
not as one-sided as Gulda's.
I was rather disappointed by a recent addition, Staier's on a historic
instrument. He uses some gimmicks (cymbals and a "bassoon stop") I
disliked and that do not wear well with repeated listening, IMO. Apart
from that I didn't find it all that special, rather inhibited when
compared with his older Haydn oder Scarlatti, I think.
Kip Williams
Apr 21, 2013, 8:34:22 AM4/21/13
to
Bob Lombard wrote, On 4/20/13 1:21 PM:
Kip W
> On 4/20/2013 12:36 PM, John Wiser wrote:
>> "Bob Lombard" <monty....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:mKyct.114931$JR....@en-nntp-16.dc1.easynews.com...
>>> On 4/20/2013 10:55 AM, Lena wrote:
>>>> On Apr 19, 4:20 pm, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> In article
>>>> [Moisés Kaufman's "33 Variations"]
>> "Bob Lombard" <monty....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:mKyct.114931$JR....@en-nntp-16.dc1.easynews.com...
>>> On 4/20/2013 10:55 AM, Lena wrote:
>>>> On Apr 19, 4:20 pm, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@POPaustin.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>> In article
>>>>
>>>>>> (Have you seen the play?)
>>>>> Yes. Best of all is how the playwright incorporates a live performance
>>>>> of the variations. In Austin the pianist was Anton Nel, locally
>>>>> beloved.
>>>>>
>>>> It would be great to see this performed. Thanks for writing about
>>>> it. (I think I remember something vague about Jane Fonda playing the
>>>> musicologist; from reading the NY Times, probably. But I must have
>>>> done some expert skimming through the article itself...)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Hanoi Jane having polluted the play, i shall avoid it assiduously.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for your kneejerk contribution.
>>
>>>>>> (Have you seen the play?)
>>>>> Yes. Best of all is how the playwright incorporates a live performance
>>>>> of the variations. In Austin the pianist was Anton Nel, locally
>>>>> beloved.
>>>>>
>>>> It would be great to see this performed. Thanks for writing about
>>>> it. (I think I remember something vague about Jane Fonda playing the
>>>> musicologist; from reading the NY Times, probably. But I must have
>>>> done some expert skimming through the article itself...)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Hanoi Jane having polluted the play, i shall avoid it assiduously.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for your kneejerk contribution.
>>
> You probably meant to type 'kneejerk reaction'. It's a reaction of
> approximately 40 years standing. Any mention of that unindicted traitor
> can induce nausea; wouldn't wish to barf while attending a performance
> of the play.
If she'd come along during Obama's term, she'd be a saint to the Right wing.
> approximately 40 years standing. Any mention of that unindicted traitor
> can induce nausea; wouldn't wish to barf while attending a performance
> of the play.
Kip W
Mandryka
Apr 21, 2013, 8:59:31 AM4/21/13
to
something interesting is happening in the last few variations, but do
you see any structure apart from that? Or is it just a pretty
arbitrary series of bagatelles, miniatures in the form of
variations?
I think the view it's principally a quirky, witty, humorous piece is
possible, but not desirable. The other extreme (Schnabel maybe, I'd
have to listen again) seems equally uninteresting. Of course there are
some comic and serious things in it. The journey metaphor seems to
capture what I like most about the best performances -- Pollini, for
example.
I too like Gulda's second -- I have the first but haven't had the
chance to listen properly. It's a shame that Kempff didn't record it.
And that Arrau didn't record it for with in the 1960s or 1970s. I'd
like to hear Burkard Schliessmann play it.
William Sommerwerck
Apr 21, 2013, 9:10:43 AM4/21/13
to
> You probably meant to type 'kneejerk reaction'. It's a reaction
> of approximately 40 years' standing. Any mention of that
> unindicted traitor can induce nausea; wouldn't wish to barf
> while attending a performance of the play.
Fortunately, we live in society where being a fool isn't necessarily a crime.
> of approximately 40 years' standing. Any mention of that
> unindicted traitor can induce nausea; wouldn't wish to barf
> while attending a performance of the play.
Richard Nixon, and the creeps surrounding the uber/ur-idiot Ronald Reagan
committed far more traitorous acts.
Gerard
Apr 21, 2013, 9:15:22 AM4/21/13
to
William Sommerwerck
Apr 21, 2013, 10:48:30 AM4/21/13
to
"Gerard" wrote in message
news:cd7c4$5173e65a$5356543a$31...@cache50.multikabel.net...
As Perry Mason would have said... "Asked and answered."
news:cd7c4$5173e65a$5356543a$31...@cache50.multikabel.net...
Norman Schwartz
Apr 21, 2013, 10:51:35 AM4/21/13
to
Johannes Roehl
Apr 21, 2013, 11:53:52 AM4/21/13
to
Am 21.04.2013 14:59, schrieb Mandryka:
> On 21 Apr, 12:17, Johannes Roehl <parrhe...@web.de> wrote:
> Do you attach any importance to the order, Johannes? I mean obviously
> something interesting is happening in the last few variations, but do
> you see any structure apart from that? Or is it just a pretty
> arbitrary series of bagatelles, miniatures in the form of
> variations?
No, I would never go so far to suggest changing the order or playing
> On 21 Apr, 12:17, Johannes Roehl <parrhe...@web.de> wrote:
> Do you attach any importance to the order, Johannes? I mean obviously
> something interesting is happening in the last few variations, but do
> you see any structure apart from that? Or is it just a pretty
> arbitrary series of bagatelles, miniatures in the form of
> variations?
only a subset! I just meant that one should not mainly or exclusively
focus on the big whole.
I most certainly agree with you that the last few variations are
obviously planned in this order. And although we know that Beethoven
expanded his scheme (IIRC from about 20 or 25 to 33) during the
composition the order is very probably NOT arbitrary for the rest as
well. Sometimes they seem to be placed for maximal contrast, e.g.
13-14-15, sometimes subsequent variations seem to continue a mood or the
development of a motive or sth. like that.
I couldn't say that I see a grand overrarching plan, though.
My point was rather that when listening to different interpretations my
like/dislike tends to focus on how particular variations are handled.
Probably not the most sophisticated way of "evaluation", but that's what
I seem to do.
> I think the view it's principally a quirky, witty, humorous piece is
> possible, but not desirable. The other extreme (Schnabel maybe, I'd
> have to listen again) seems equally uninteresting. Of course there are
> some comic and serious things in it. The journey metaphor seems to
> capture what I like most about the best performances -- Pollini, for
> example.
>
> I too like Gulda's second -- I have the first but haven't had the
> chance to listen properly. It's a shame that Kempff didn't record it.
B000026I4C on DG Resonance seems to contain Anda's Diabellis and
Kempff's op.35! so caveat emptor (I almost ordered it, but I have Anda's
in a box set))
I think both Gilels and Gould would have been interesting. Gilels is
somewhat short in the humor department, but I like his '80ties DG
"Eroica"-Variations tremendously.
BTW does anyone know when the Rosen on IMP/Carlton Classics was recorded?
Johannes
Bob Lombard
Apr 21, 2013, 2:54:07 PM4/21/13
to
On 4/21/2013 1:58 PM, Lena wrote:
> one's tee shots? :)
>
> (peace in rmcr, and, if marginally possible, good will...)
> Lena
No knee involved. Upper gastrointestinal. No peace for HJ in death, no
statute of limitations applies.
bl
> On Apr 20, 10:21 am, Bob Lombard <monty.pel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/20/2013 12:36 PM, John Wiser wrote:
> [...]
>> On 4/20/2013 12:36 PM, John Wiser wrote:
>
>> You probably meant to type 'kneejerk reaction'. It's a reaction of
>> approximately 40 years standing.
> Knee reactions of slightly shorter durations might work better for
>> You probably meant to type 'kneejerk reaction'. It's a reaction of
>> approximately 40 years standing.
> one's tee shots? :)
>
> (peace in rmcr, and, if marginally possible, good will...)
> Lena
No knee involved. Upper gastrointestinal. No peace for HJ in death, no
statute of limitations applies.
bl
max197...@gmail.com
Apr 21, 2013, 9:59:55 PM4/21/13
to
On Thursday, April 18, 2013 4:20:47 PM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> On Apr 18, 8:11 pm, Bob Lombard <monty.pel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 4/18/2013 3:02 PM, Mandryka wrote:> What do you guys think about this recording?
> On Apr 18, 8:11 pm, Bob Lombard <monty.pel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
>
> > > I know it's beautifully played and recorded. But somehow I can't get
>
> > > my head round why he's playing the music like that. Maybe I'm too tied
>
> > > to the idea of these variations as a quest, an arduous journey,
>
> > > something I picked up from Maynard Solomon's book on late Beethoven.
>
> > > Maybe they mean something else to Sokolov. But without a clearer grasp
>
> > > of what he's seeing in the music I find the performance completely
>
> > > elusive.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > I know it's beautifully played and recorded. But somehow I can't get
>
> > > my head round why he's playing the music like that. Maybe I'm too tied
>
> > > to the idea of these variations as a quest, an arduous journey,
>
> > > something I picked up from Maynard Solomon's book on late Beethoven.
>
> > > Maybe they mean something else to Sokolov. But without a clearer grasp
>
> > > of what he's seeing in the music I find the performance completely
>
> > > elusive.
>
> >
>
> > Maynard Solomon was mostly FOS, and the 'quest, an arduous journey'
>
> > notion fits.
>
>
>
> Well maybe. But we still have Sokolov's Diabellies to understand.
>
>
>
>
> > notion fits.
>
>
>
> Well maybe. But we still have Sokolov's Diabellies to understand.
>
>
>
> Each individual variation is played extremely well and often with
>
> brave orginality. The problem is in the vision of the thing as a
>
> whole, I'm convinced of it. The whole seems much much less than the
>
> sum of the parts. i think I'm just missing his point.
Such interesting comments in this thread.
>
> brave orginality. The problem is in the vision of the thing as a
>
> whole, I'm convinced of it. The whole seems much much less than the
>
> sum of the parts. i think I'm just missing his point.
I would agree with those who don't think the overall journey matters so much. For once, it's more important to see the trees, not the forest. This is because EACH variation is an epic journey.
Many pianists, misled by the simple harmonies of Op. 120, simplify the music and miss the point.
Consider the "innocent" rococo opening of Variation 18 and its first two phrase. Now observe the scale that rises from the bass to the final cadence of the second phrase.
Just a scale right?
No, that is some insidious shit. It should CREEP up from the bass.
It is the precursor of what's about to happen: a serpentine line that winds like a snake through the sockets of a skull.
For a moment, this innocent variation becomes evil. Yet as it ascends in register, it purges its own darkness and ends on the most innocent - even *darling* - octave leap.
Just the first half of the variation is an epic traversal. The details matter tremendously.
(Btw, if you look at the score, you'll see that the "snake" line dissolves into itself the separate and balanced units of the call-and-response opening. It is the antithesis of galant phrasing. I'm practically giving away my dissertation theory here.)
Variation 18 looks incredibly conventional on paper. It looks downright boring. Pianists respond accordingly. It has only a few interesting chromatic moments to counteract its diatonic blandness. The opening melody is insipid in the extreme. Who is going to realize that the plain a-minor scale is actually a token of the coming darkness?
Sokolov does - he plays that scale with a suspenseful ritardando and a touch of menace.
So, yes, if you can appreciate Sokolov's way with the individual variations, that's fantastic. That is why his performance is great.
As for his overall journey, just as you find it wanting, so do I. He rushes from Variation 20 to 21, boxing our ears when I would prefer to steep in the aftermath of the incredible catharsis of 20. Most analysts believe this is a critical structural division in the work, and Beethoven does distinguish it with a fermata.
Solomon's best essay about Op. 120 is not the one about pilgrimage. It's 'The End of a Beginning: The "Diabelli" Variations' an essay dedicated to Lewis Lockwood (Chapter 1 in his book on Late Beethoven). It's very moving. It's on google books.
best,
Max
max197...@gmail.com
Apr 21, 2013, 10:06:17 PM4/21/13
to
On Thursday, April 18, 2013 3:11:25 PM UTC-4, Bob Lombard wrote:
> On 4/18/2013 3:02 PM, Mandryka wrote:
>
> > What do you guys think about this recording?
>
> >
>
> > I know it's beautifully played and recorded. But somehow I can't get
>
> > my head round why he's playing the music like that. Maybe I'm too tied
>
> > to the idea of these variations as a quest, an arduous journey,
>
> > something I picked up from Maynard Solomon's book on late Beethoven.
>
> > Maybe they mean something else to Sokolov. But without a clearer grasp
>
> > of what he's seeing in the music I find the performance completely
>
> > elusive.
>
> Maynard Solomon was mostly FOS, and the 'quest, an arduous journey'
>
> notion fits.
What do you think is wrong with that idea?
> On 4/18/2013 3:02 PM, Mandryka wrote:
>
> > What do you guys think about this recording?
>
> >
>
> > I know it's beautifully played and recorded. But somehow I can't get
>
> > my head round why he's playing the music like that. Maybe I'm too tied
>
> > to the idea of these variations as a quest, an arduous journey,
>
> > something I picked up from Maynard Solomon's book on late Beethoven.
>
> > Maybe they mean something else to Sokolov. But without a clearer grasp
>
> > of what he's seeing in the music I find the performance completely
>
> > elusive.
>
> Maynard Solomon was mostly FOS, and the 'quest, an arduous journey'
>
> notion fits.
Is it because every long work by Beethoven signifies a journey, so the point is trivial? Or do you think it doesn't feel like a journey in the first place? Or do you object to its "arduous" descriptor? Or?
-Max
Bob Lombard
Apr 21, 2013, 10:53:44 PM4/21/13
to
/progression/, but not the individual variations. The work is probably
'arduous' for the pianist, but it shouldn't be for the listener. The
last few variations take the listener to the same place that the last
three sonatas do, but they are the capstone, not the whole building.
bl
Bob Lombard
Apr 22, 2013, 3:11:33 PM4/22/13
to
On 4/22/2013 2:57 PM, Lena wrote:
> interpretation.
>
> [I'm cutting parts for clarity to just focus on this idea:]
> and yours is a moving take. (Whether this is how one views the piece
> or not.)
>
> People's views of a composer tend to be full of projections from the
> viewer's personality, as you know, and it gets harder with someone
> like Beethoven who doesn't explain himself a lot. The humor side of
> something like the DV is relatively easy to relate to the actual
> person, since humor is pretty evident in letters, conversations,
> musical -- canon-shaped -- notes to friends... Otoh, the "inner life"
> isn't much visible in any reliable accounts. So the "original
> meaning" of the music is a vanishing concept, along with other ideas
> about what the composer really thought about anything non-mundane...
>
> Fortunately, that refusal to explain makes all private interpretations
> sort of correct. :)
>
> Lena
>
>
And of course we all strive for validity of our ideas, which in turn
validate our existence, eh?
> On Apr 20, 10:41 am, David Fox <davidfox2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 4/20/13 10:19 AM, David Fox wrote:
>>
> Thanks for the posts; you're saying lots of reasonable things about
>> On 4/20/13 10:19 AM, David Fox wrote:
>>
> interpretation.
>
> [I'm cutting parts for clarity to just focus on this idea:]
>
>> I don't think Beethoven is saying anything as simple and trite as the
>> following, but here is a way that the piece resonates with me. Many
>> elements of our everyday life seem mundane and trivial, but these
>> elements combine to weave a fabric of something mystical and profound -
>> life itself. Don't we all reflect back on what at the time were very
>> simple moments that mean so much more to us now? Isn't that what
>> mementos and certain photographs convey to us as well? Late Beethoven is
>> reflective and is never too far away from notions of mortality. The
>> Diabelli Variations are much, much more than this simple concept, but
>> this simple concept is a very emotionally powerful, profound one.
>>
> That's interesting. These personal interpretations all make sense,
>> I don't think Beethoven is saying anything as simple and trite as the
>> following, but here is a way that the piece resonates with me. Many
>> elements of our everyday life seem mundane and trivial, but these
>> elements combine to weave a fabric of something mystical and profound -
>> life itself. Don't we all reflect back on what at the time were very
>> simple moments that mean so much more to us now? Isn't that what
>> mementos and certain photographs convey to us as well? Late Beethoven is
>> reflective and is never too far away from notions of mortality. The
>> Diabelli Variations are much, much more than this simple concept, but
>> this simple concept is a very emotionally powerful, profound one.
>>
> and yours is a moving take. (Whether this is how one views the piece
> or not.)
>
> People's views of a composer tend to be full of projections from the
> viewer's personality, as you know, and it gets harder with someone
> like Beethoven who doesn't explain himself a lot. The humor side of
> something like the DV is relatively easy to relate to the actual
> person, since humor is pretty evident in letters, conversations,
> musical -- canon-shaped -- notes to friends... Otoh, the "inner life"
> isn't much visible in any reliable accounts. So the "original
> meaning" of the music is a vanishing concept, along with other ideas
> about what the composer really thought about anything non-mundane...
>
> Fortunately, that refusal to explain makes all private interpretations
> sort of correct. :)
>
> Lena
>
>
And of course we all strive for validity of our ideas, which in turn
validate our existence, eh?
Al Eisner
Apr 23, 2013, 9:06:10 PM4/23/13
to
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, David Fox wrote:
> On 4/18/13 12:02 PM, Mandryka wrote:
>> What do you guys think about this recording?
>>
>> I know it's beautifully played and recorded. But somehow I can't get
>> my head round why he's playing the music like that. Maybe I'm too tied
>> to the idea of these variations as a quest, an arduous journey,
>> something I picked up from Maynard Solomon's book on late Beethoven.
>> Maybe they mean something else to Sokolov. But without a clearer grasp
>> of what he's seeing in the music I find the performance completely
>> elusive.
>
> I don't think it's possible to write down what Beethoven meant in a sentence,
> a paragraph, or even a book. If it were Beethoven would have done so and
> wouldn't have needed to compose a piece of music.
Of course it's not possible, but even if it were, wouldn't this be an
> On 4/18/13 12:02 PM, Mandryka wrote:
>> What do you guys think about this recording?
>>
>> I know it's beautifully played and recorded. But somehow I can't get
>> my head round why he's playing the music like that. Maybe I'm too tied
>> to the idea of these variations as a quest, an arduous journey,
>> something I picked up from Maynard Solomon's book on late Beethoven.
>> Maybe they mean something else to Sokolov. But without a clearer grasp
>> of what he's seeing in the music I find the performance completely
>> elusive.
>
> I don't think it's possible to write down what Beethoven meant in a sentence,
> a paragraph, or even a book. If it were Beethoven would have done so and
> wouldn't have needed to compose a piece of music.
exceedingly strange notion, that the only thing conveyed by music is
"meaning"? But I'll play along (literally, as you'll see) for the moment....
> Musicologists and critics are adept at pointing out craft and structure, but
> these are facets - they are not meaning. We experience the meaning and
> that's what gives a piece its lasting appeal. If it were not there or if it
> were imperfectly expressed we would lose interest in the piece over time.
> For example, how often do we discuss or listen to another set of late
> Beethoven piano variations, the Variations on Folk Songs Op. 107?
> As broadly appealing as aspects of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony are, a good
> part of its majesty is a sense of an inexpressible meaning that just exceeds
> our grasp. I've read quotes from many conductors over the years who have
> performed the piece to wide acclaim over many decades but still confess in
> moments of candor that they have no idea what the piece really means.
we had to choose one of them to "explain" the work, perhaps it should be
"Götterfunken" :)
For the Diabellis, Beethoven provides only a few words, but one of them
does seem to sort-of explain it -- that word is "variation". (It surely
is not "waltzing" or "Diabelli".) I'm being at least half serious here.
[Hence only 1/2 of a :) ] The DVs are an amazingly accomplished set of
variations. Cannot the collecction have musical depth without having a
"meaning" beyond that?
> Conductors as wide-ranging in approach and era as Toscanini and Salonen have
> expressed this thought in almost these exact words. This profundity combined
> with elusiveness defines the Late Quartets as well.
Al Eisner
Mandryka
Apr 24, 2013, 2:59:46 PM4/24/13
to
td
Apr 24, 2013, 4:42:22 PM4/24/13
to
Kemff never recorded the DV. At least not on LP. Not sure about 78s, but pretty sure.
TD
TD
td
Apr 24, 2013, 4:46:15 PM4/24/13
to
Never stopped anyone o. RMCR.
TD
TD
Miguel Montfort
Apr 24, 2013, 5:18:02 PM4/24/13
to
Tom Deacon wrote:
> Kemff never recorded the DV. At least not on LP. Not sure
> about 78s, but pretty sure.
There are indeed some Wilhelms (and Williams) who recorded
> Kemff never recorded the DV. At least not on LP. Not sure
> about 78s, but pretty sure.
the »Diabellis«. Kempff wasn’t one of them.
Miguel Montfort
max197...@gmail.com
Apr 24, 2013, 6:23:25 PM4/24/13
to
> All best with your thesis -- I'd really like to read it!
>
>
>
> Lena
>
Hi Lena - It's great to meet another fan of the DV's.
Would love to hear from you.
m-s-2-9-5-5-at-columbia.edu
(remove the dashes)
best,
Max
Al Eisner
Apr 25, 2013, 6:36:42 PM4/25/13
to
On Sun, 21 Apr 2013, Lena wrote:
> On Apr 21, 8:53 am, Johannes Roehl <parrhe...@web.de> wrote:
>> Am 21.04.2013 14:59, schrieb Mandryka:
>>
>>> On 21 Apr, 12:17, Johannes Roehl <parrhe...@web.de> wrote:
>>> Do you attach any importance to the order, Johannes? I mean obviously
>>> something interesting is happening in the last few variations, but do
>>> you see any structure apart from that? Or is it just a pretty
>>> arbitrary series of bagatelles, miniatures in the form of
>>> variations?
>>
>> No, I would never go so far to suggest changing the order or playing
>> only a subset! I just meant that one should not mainly or exclusively
>> focus on the big whole.
>> I most certainly agree with you that the last few variations are
>> obviously planned in this order. And although we know that Beethoven
>> expanded his scheme (IIRC from about 20 or 25 to 33) during the
>> composition the order is very probably NOT arbitrary for the rest as
>> well. Sometimes they seem to be placed for maximal contrast, e.g.
>> 13-14-15, sometimes subsequent variations seem to continue a mood or the
>> development of a motive or sth. like that.
>> I couldn't say that I see a grand overrarching plan, though.
>
> [All this is sort of addressed to Howie...:]
>
> Of course there is structure in the piece... It seems pretty evident
> how the piece is sectioned into parts. There are little groups with
> bigger and smaller ending marks, and one big half-way mark. (There
> are variations of varying finality and weight, variation endings of
> varying finality, connections/disconnections between variations (like
> small bridges from the end of one variation to the beginning of the
> next, connections between notes stressed, places of big discontinuity
> in harmonic details). And so on.)
I've found this thread fascinating. In order to better appreciate it,
I relistened to the Diabellis last night, and that pretty much confirmed
what I had vaguely remembered: that there is indeed, in nearly all
cases, a logical continuity in the work -- e.g., groups of variations
which build (each upon the previous one) until an appropriate contrast
is called for. That is, it just mostly sounds that way to me, without
having looked at a score; and I appreciate Lena's set of explanations
above.
> I just don't understand how the "journey" metaphor says anything
> helpful. But if it works for you, of course you should use it.
> (Speaking just for me -- the metaphor doesn't seem to add anything to
> the piece.) I do though slightly object to the word "arduous,"
> since I don't see the label fitting this work, but again -- it's your
> listening, your call. :)
While I don't get any sense of a journey, I do have the feeling that, with
the final minuet, the work has nonetheless "arrived" somewhere. It's
more like magic.
> Though the ordering isn't random, the forward logic in a piece like
> this is going to be a bit looser than it is in some other forms. The
> majority of these variations could be permuted (with only very minor
> changes), without a total sense of chaos. Of course, then the piece
> would lose its current design. Whether the new design is improved,
> you decide.
>
> You can always conduct your own experiment. Leave the ending
> variations untouched, but play the other variations in random order,
> or in some order concocted by you. You find the result less
> compelling, as compelling, more compelling? Or just something else?
> The experiment might even be fun.
Or it might (more likely, I'd guess) be painful. :)
> [end of addressing that continuity issue :) ]
> won't even tell you! :) )
>
> [...]
> 1995 on IMP/Carlton Classics." (This quote from David G. who knows
> his stuff.)
>
> Lena
--
Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA
> On Apr 21, 8:53 am, Johannes Roehl <parrhe...@web.de> wrote:
>> Am 21.04.2013 14:59, schrieb Mandryka:
>>
>>> On 21 Apr, 12:17, Johannes Roehl <parrhe...@web.de> wrote:
>>> Do you attach any importance to the order, Johannes? I mean obviously
>>> something interesting is happening in the last few variations, but do
>>> you see any structure apart from that? Or is it just a pretty
>>> arbitrary series of bagatelles, miniatures in the form of
>>> variations?
>>
>> No, I would never go so far to suggest changing the order or playing
>> only a subset! I just meant that one should not mainly or exclusively
>> focus on the big whole.
>> I most certainly agree with you that the last few variations are
>> obviously planned in this order. And although we know that Beethoven
>> expanded his scheme (IIRC from about 20 or 25 to 33) during the
>> composition the order is very probably NOT arbitrary for the rest as
>> well. Sometimes they seem to be placed for maximal contrast, e.g.
>> 13-14-15, sometimes subsequent variations seem to continue a mood or the
>> development of a motive or sth. like that.
>> I couldn't say that I see a grand overrarching plan, though.
>
>
> Of course there is structure in the piece... It seems pretty evident
> how the piece is sectioned into parts. There are little groups with
> bigger and smaller ending marks, and one big half-way mark. (There
> are variations of varying finality and weight, variation endings of
> varying finality, connections/disconnections between variations (like
> small bridges from the end of one variation to the beginning of the
> next, connections between notes stressed, places of big discontinuity
> in harmonic details). And so on.)
I've found this thread fascinating. In order to better appreciate it,
I relistened to the Diabellis last night, and that pretty much confirmed
what I had vaguely remembered: that there is indeed, in nearly all
cases, a logical continuity in the work -- e.g., groups of variations
which build (each upon the previous one) until an appropriate contrast
is called for. That is, it just mostly sounds that way to me, without
having looked at a score; and I appreciate Lena's set of explanations
above.
> I just don't understand how the "journey" metaphor says anything
> helpful. But if it works for you, of course you should use it.
> (Speaking just for me -- the metaphor doesn't seem to add anything to
> the piece.) I do though slightly object to the word "arduous,"
> since I don't see the label fitting this work, but again -- it's your
> listening, your call. :)
While I don't get any sense of a journey, I do have the feeling that, with
the final minuet, the work has nonetheless "arrived" somewhere. It's
more like magic.
> Though the ordering isn't random, the forward logic in a piece like
> this is going to be a bit looser than it is in some other forms. The
> majority of these variations could be permuted (with only very minor
> changes), without a total sense of chaos. Of course, then the piece
> would lose its current design. Whether the new design is improved,
> you decide.
>
> You can always conduct your own experiment. Leave the ending
> variations untouched, but play the other variations in random order,
> or in some order concocted by you. You find the result less
> compelling, as compelling, more compelling? Or just something else?
> The experiment might even be fun.
Or it might (more likely, I'd guess) be painful. :)
> [end of addressing that continuity issue :) ]
>
>>
>> My point was rather that when listening to different interpretations my
>> like/dislike tends to focus on how particular variations are handled.
>> Probably not the most sophisticated way of "evaluation", but that's what
>> I seem to do.
>
> I use similar methods, but I'm even more unsophisticated. :) (I
>>
>> My point was rather that when listening to different interpretations my
>> like/dislike tends to focus on how particular variations are handled.
>> Probably not the most sophisticated way of "evaluation", but that's what
>> I seem to do.
>
> won't even tell you! :) )
>
> [...]
>
>> BTW does anyone know when the Rosen on IMP/Carlton Classics was recorded?
>>
>
> "Originally released in 1977, Rosen's recording was reissued on CD in
>> BTW does anyone know when the Rosen on IMP/Carlton Classics was recorded?
>>
>
> 1995 on IMP/Carlton Classics." (This quote from David G. who knows
> his stuff.)
>
> Lena
--
Al Eisner
San Mateo Co., CA
Bob Lombard
Apr 25, 2013, 9:51:50 PM4/25/13
to
last evening. It is as Lena says. Excellent performance BTW.
bl
Message has been deleted
max197...@gmail.com
Apr 27, 2013, 1:06:38 AM4/27/13
to
[Much deleted]
> I've found this thread fascinating. In order to better appreciate it,
>
> I relistened to the Diabellis last night, and that pretty much confirmed
>
> what I had vaguely remembered: that there is indeed, in nearly all
>
> cases, a logical continuity in the work -- e.g., groups of variations
>
> which build (each upon the previous one) until an appropriate contrast
>
> is called for. That is, it just mostly sounds that way to me, without
>
> having looked at a score; and I appreciate Lena's set of explanations
>
> above.
>
>
[deletions]
Would like to add that during my survey of 60+ performances I came across Michael Korstick's recording a few months back on the Naxos website and was thrilled to discover so many crucial elements missed by other pianists and by myself. I instantly bought the CD - a rare occurrence - imported it as a file, and split the tracks by hand (the entire work is on one track).
..Which is all to say it's a compelling performance - highly accomplished for attending to so many patterns and for making the result seem simple.
A recent search for reviews showed that Simon Roberts and Tom Deacon were the first to advocate for it. Kudos to them! I wish I had heard their recommendation years ago.
-Max
> I've found this thread fascinating. In order to better appreciate it,
>
> I relistened to the Diabellis last night, and that pretty much confirmed
>
> what I had vaguely remembered: that there is indeed, in nearly all
>
> cases, a logical continuity in the work -- e.g., groups of variations
>
> which build (each upon the previous one) until an appropriate contrast
>
> is called for. That is, it just mostly sounds that way to me, without
>
> having looked at a score; and I appreciate Lena's set of explanations
>
> above.
>
>
> Al Eisner
>
> San Mateo Co., CA
I'm curious which performance you listened to. Pianists have leeway in projecting the groupings.
>
> San Mateo Co., CA
Would like to add that during my survey of 60+ performances I came across Michael Korstick's recording a few months back on the Naxos website and was thrilled to discover so many crucial elements missed by other pianists and by myself. I instantly bought the CD - a rare occurrence - imported it as a file, and split the tracks by hand (the entire work is on one track).
..Which is all to say it's a compelling performance - highly accomplished for attending to so many patterns and for making the result seem simple.
A recent search for reviews showed that Simon Roberts and Tom Deacon were the first to advocate for it. Kudos to them! I wish I had heard their recommendation years ago.
-Max
Al Eisner
Apr 27, 2013, 2:24:31 AM4/27/13
to
On Fri, 26 Apr 2013, max197...@gmail.com wrote:
> [Much deleted]
>
>> I've found this thread fascinating. In order to better appreciate it,
>> I relistened to the Diabellis last night, and that pretty much confirmed
>> what I had vaguely remembered: that there is indeed, in nearly all
>> cases, a logical continuity in the work -- e.g., groups of variations
>> which build (each upon the previous one) until an appropriate contrast
>> is called for. That is, it just mostly sounds that way to me, without
>> having looked at a score; and I appreciate Lena's set of explanations
>> above.
>
> [deletions]
>> Al Eisner
>
> [Much deleted]
>
>> I've found this thread fascinating. In order to better appreciate it,
>> I relistened to the Diabellis last night, and that pretty much confirmed
>> what I had vaguely remembered: that there is indeed, in nearly all
>> cases, a logical continuity in the work -- e.g., groups of variations
>> which build (each upon the previous one) until an appropriate contrast
>> is called for. That is, it just mostly sounds that way to me, without
>> having looked at a score; and I appreciate Lena's set of explanations
>> above.
>
> [deletions]
>> Al Eisner
>
> I'm curious which performance you listened to. Pianists have leeway in projecting the groupings.
I picked one I already knew:
Richter, 1988 (on Regis). Compared to your numbers (below) I've only
heard a handful of performances that I specifically remember. I do find
I also have an early Richter performance (1951) which I've not listened to --
I'll try to do so soon, although the fact that it's about 9 minutes
shorter worries me a bit. :)
> Would like to add that during my survey of 60+ performances I came across Michael Korstick's recording a few months back on the Naxos website and was thrilled to discover so many crucial elements missed by other pianists and by myself. I instantly bought the CD - a rare occurrence - imported it as a file, and split the tracks by hand (the entire work is on one track).
>
> ..Which is all to say it's a compelling performance - highly accomplished for attending to so many patterns and for making the result seem simple.
>
> A recent search for reviews showed that Simon Roberts and Tom Deacon were the first to advocate for it. Kudos to them! I wish I had heard their recommendation years ago.
>
> -Max
DV acquisition is likely to be Katchen, which you (and others) have
earlier discussed -- it;s available cheap now at MDT.
--
Al Eisner
max
Apr 28, 2013, 8:05:53 AM4/28/13
to
>
> Interesting to hear your reinforcing comments on that. My next likely
>
> DV acquisition is likely to be Katchen, which you (and others) have
>
> earlier discussed -- it;s available cheap now at MDT.
>
> --
>
>
>
> Al Eisner
-Max
max197...@gmail.com
Apr 28, 2013, 8:43:46 AM4/28/13
to
On Saturday, April 27, 2013 2:18:08 AM UTC-4, Lena wrote:
> > [Max wrote:]
>
> don't have it, they just take it anyway. :) But don't you find that
>
> the groupings are internally determined?
Many are obvious, especially from Variation XXI to the end. The first 17 are not obviously grouped, in my opinion.
When does a strong contrast indicate a break between variations? When does it join two variations together?
The contrast between VIII and IX is at the performer's discretion. A ritardando at the end of VIII can convey a deep-level finality and the end of a group. After a slight pause, IX begins a new chapter.
Or conversely, IX begins on the very last note of VIII, and an immediate launch into IX will revoke the sense of closure and extend the group further.
-Max
> > [Max wrote:]
> > I'm curious which performance you listened to. Pianists have leeway in projecting the groupings.
>
>
>
> Yes, sure -- pianists always have all kinds of leeway, and if they
>
>
>
>
> don't have it, they just take it anyway. :) But don't you find that
>
> the groupings are internally determined?
Many are obvious, especially from Variation XXI to the end. The first 17 are not obviously grouped, in my opinion.
When does a strong contrast indicate a break between variations? When does it join two variations together?
The contrast between VIII and IX is at the performer's discretion. A ritardando at the end of VIII can convey a deep-level finality and the end of a group. After a slight pause, IX begins a new chapter.
Or conversely, IX begins on the very last note of VIII, and an immediate launch into IX will revoke the sense of closure and extend the group further.
-Max
Mandryka
Apr 28, 2013, 9:08:10 AM4/28/13
to
I have the Katchen LP rip too, in two large tracks, one for each side
of the LP
I also have the very early Richter performance that Al Eisner
mentioned. I've never got into it, it has never kept my attention. I'd
be interested to know what anyone else thinks of it.
One I enjoyed very much recently was the live one from Pludermacher.
of the LP
I also have the very early Richter performance that Al Eisner
mentioned. I've never got into it, it has never kept my attention. I'd
be interested to know what anyone else thinks of it.
One I enjoyed very much recently was the live one from Pludermacher.
Mandryka
Apr 28, 2013, 9:12:23 AM4/28/13
to
each var. is a response to the preceding one. A sense of sweep.
I know that's all vague and wishy washy, but listeners often report
that they hear that sort of thing. I've heard similar things said
about some performances of Chopin op 28 and Davidsbundlertanze. I
don't think it's an illusion.
Bob Lombard
Apr 28, 2013, 9:27:44 AM4/28/13
to
way." The Chopin has several connections, and several endings.
bl
Al Eisner
Apr 30, 2013, 6:02:46 PM4/30/13
to
But (being equally vague, since it's really just an impression) I did
have the latter sense in the late Richter performance for variations
VIII-IX-X, with each seeming to build from the preceding one, and XI
representing some sort of change (and was the first place where the
tempo had let up in a while).
--
ljk...@aol.com
Apr 30, 2013, 7:34:47 PM4/30/13
to
Pianist-musicologist William Kindermann wrote an interesting book about the DV:
http://www.amazon.com/Beethovens-Diabelli-Variations-Structure-Interpretation/dp/0195342364
He also recorded the DV, for Hyperion IIRC.
Larry Kart
http://www.amazon.com/Beethovens-Diabelli-Variations-Structure-Interpretation/dp/0195342364
He also recorded the DV, for Hyperion IIRC.
Larry Kart
Mandryka
May 1, 2013, 1:14:22 AM5/1/13
to
On May 1, 12:34 am, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
> Pianist-musicologist William Kindermann wrote an interesting book about the DV:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Beethovens-Diabelli-Variations-Structure-Interp...
> Pianist-musicologist William Kindermann wrote an interesting book about the DV:
>
>
> He also recorded the DV, for Hyperion IIRC.
>
> Larry Kart
The record is on modern piano. Did he ever play it on a fortepiano
> He also recorded the DV, for Hyperion IIRC.
>
> Larry Kart
On fortepiano there are a few: Demus, Komen, Staier, Cooper,
Batterby. Any others?
By the way, the big CD find for me in this thread has been the one
from Daria Robotkina.
Mandryka
May 1, 2013, 1:16:40 AM5/1/13
to
William Sommerwerck
May 1, 2013, 7:53:20 AM5/1/13
to
> The record is on modern piano. Did he ever play it on a fortepiano?
Would Beethoven have played it on a fortepiano? Did Beethoven like the
instrument?
Would Beethoven have played it on a fortepiano? Did Beethoven like the
instrument?
Gerard
May 1, 2013, 11:32:00 AM5/1/13
to
William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> typed:
> > The record is on modern piano. Did he ever play it on a fortepiano?
>
> Would Beethoven have played it on a fortepiano?
What else?
>
> Would Beethoven have played it on a fortepiano?
John Wiser
May 1, 2013, 11:40:59 AM5/1/13
to
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:klqvh9$ai6$1...@dont-email.me...
jdw
news:klqvh9$ai6$1...@dont-email.me...
>> The record is on modern piano. Did he ever play it on a fortepiano?
>
> Would Beethoven have played it on a fortepiano? Did Beethoven like the instrument?
Beethoven would have had no choice.
>
> Would Beethoven have played it on a fortepiano? Did Beethoven like the instrument?
jdw
td
May 1, 2013, 11:41:07 AM5/1/13
to
My pleasure.
TD
TD
Mandryka
May 1, 2013, 12:35:50 PM5/1/13
to
On May 1, 12:53 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:
interests me most is whether the performers who play it make
interesting music out of what Beethoven wrote.
wrote:
> > The record is on modern piano. Did he ever play it on a fortepiano?
>
> Would Beethoven have played it on a fortepiano? Did Beethoven like the
> instrument?
Historical issues like those aren't my main concern really. What
>
> Would Beethoven have played it on a fortepiano? Did Beethoven like the
> instrument?
interests me most is whether the performers who play it make
interesting music out of what Beethoven wrote.
Mandryka
May 1, 2013, 12:39:49 PM5/1/13
to
Oh by the way, I mentioned it in response to Kinderman because I've
been told that in his book he advocates fps for performing the DVs.
But that's second hand, I haven't read the book myself, and the guy
who said that to me didn't elaborate the ponts Kinderman makes.
been told that in his book he advocates fps for performing the DVs.
But that's second hand, I haven't read the book myself, and the guy
who said that to me didn't elaborate the ponts Kinderman makes.
td
May 4, 2013, 3:27:43 PM5/4/13
to
Both Richter and Pludermacher are interesting.
I regret that no recording was made of Richter's 1970 performance at Tours, which I heard "live". The sound of tgat concert remain fresh in my mind today years later.
I do think his DV are the best I have ever heard, bar none. His first variation, rather slow and heavy-footed, succeeds in ridding the mind of the utter silliness of the theme itself. The journey Beethoven takes us on begins earnestly right there.
TD
I regret that no recording was made of Richter's 1970 performance at Tours, which I heard "live". The sound of tgat concert remain fresh in my mind today years later.
I do think his DV are the best I have ever heard, bar none. His first variation, rather slow and heavy-footed, succeeds in ridding the mind of the utter silliness of the theme itself. The journey Beethoven takes us on begins earnestly right there.
TD
Al Eisner
May 6, 2013, 2:49:55 PM5/6/13
to
On Sun, 28 Apr 2013, Mandryka wrote:
> I have the Katchen LP rip too, in two large tracks, one for each side
> of the LP
>
> I also have the very early Richter performance that Al Eisner
> mentioned. I've never got into it, it has never kept my attention. I'd
> be interested to know what anyone else thinks of it.
Okay, I've now gotten around to listening to the 1951 Richter, and my
> of the LP
>
> I also have the very early Richter performance that Al Eisner
> mentioned. I've never got into it, it has never kept my attention. I'd
> be interested to know what anyone else thinks of it.
very brief response is "Me neither". Although faster than the 1988, IMO
it lacks the sweep and continuity the later one has, and also lacks much
of the emphasis internal to variations, so they are individually also less
interesting to me. There are also pauses between tracks which he links
in his late version. Maybe Richter at age 36 hadn't yet fully grown
into the work (although of course it is technically fine). I have almost
no reservations about the 1988.
Have you heard the Eroica Variations from that same 1951 concert?
I think it's terrific -- exhilirating in its faster portions, close
to mesmerizing in some of the slower, all under superb control.
(Just based on one hearing, so maybe I'm going out on a limb....)
> One I enjoyed very much recently was the live one from Pludermacher.
--
Al Eisner
Al Eisner
May 6, 2013, 3:19:21 PM5/6/13
to
On Mon, 6 May 2013, Al Eisner wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Apr 2013, Mandryka wrote:
>
>> I have the Katchen LP rip too, in two large tracks, one for each side
>> of the LP
>>
>> I also have the very early Richter performance that Al Eisner
>> mentioned. I've never got into it, it has never kept my attention. I'd
>> be interested to know what anyone else thinks of it.
>
> Okay, I've now gotten around to listening to the 1951 Richter, and my
> very brief response is "Me neither". Although faster than the 1988, IMO
> it lacks the sweep and continuity the later one has, and also lacks much
> of the emphasis internal to variations, so they are individually also less
> interesting to me. There are also pauses between tracks which he links
> in his late version. Maybe Richter at age 36 hadn't yet fully grown
> into the work (although of course it is technically fine). I have almost
> no reservations about the 1988.
Sorry, that should be 1986. not 1988. By the way, TD commented on a Tours
> On Sun, 28 Apr 2013, Mandryka wrote:
>
>> I have the Katchen LP rip too, in two large tracks, one for each side
>> of the LP
>>
>> I also have the very early Richter performance that Al Eisner
>> mentioned. I've never got into it, it has never kept my attention. I'd
>> be interested to know what anyone else thinks of it.
>
> Okay, I've now gotten around to listening to the 1951 Richter, and my
> very brief response is "Me neither". Although faster than the 1988, IMO
> it lacks the sweep and continuity the later one has, and also lacks much
> of the emphasis internal to variations, so they are individually also less
> interesting to me. There are also pauses between tracks which he links
> in his late version. Maybe Richter at age 36 hadn't yet fully grown
> into the work (although of course it is technically fine). I have almost
> no reservations about the 1988.
performance in 1970. One of the Richter disocgraphies (at Doremi) says
a private recording of that exists. Also, both discographies note another
1970 performance in Venice which is available on Music & Arts (with
what aurhorization I ahve no idea).
> Have you heard the Eroica Variations from that same 1951 concert?
> I think it's terrific -- exhilirating in its faster portions, close
> to mesmerizing in some of the slower, all under superb control.
> (Just based on one hearing, so maybe I'm going out on a limb....)
>
>> One I enjoyed very much recently was the live one from Pludermacher.
>
> Thanks.
>
--
Al Eisner
Steve Emerson
May 6, 2013, 8:11:53 PM5/6/13
to
In article
<alpine.LRH.2.00.1...@iris01.slac.stanford.edu>,
SE.
<alpine.LRH.2.00.1...@iris01.slac.stanford.edu>,
Al Eisner <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> Have you heard the Eroica Variations from that same 1951 concert?
> I think it's terrific -- exhilirating in its faster portions, close
> to mesmerizing in some of the slower, all under superb control.
> (Just based on one hearing, so maybe I'm going out on a limb....)
There are several Richter Eroica Variations, all of them terrific.
>
> Have you heard the Eroica Variations from that same 1951 concert?
> I think it's terrific -- exhilirating in its faster portions, close
> to mesmerizing in some of the slower, all under superb control.
> (Just based on one hearing, so maybe I'm going out on a limb....)
SE.
Mandryka
May 7, 2013, 9:22:11 AM5/7/13
to
one on Philips or the Praga one.I don't think it was just a question
of sound quality
Al Eisner
May 7, 2013, 5:05:11 PM5/7/13
to
> I've heard the Music and Arts, and I prefer the later ones, either the
> one on Philips or the Praga one.I don't think it was just a question
> of sound quality
I'm losing track here. Which work are you now referring to?
> one on Philips or the Praga one.I don't think it was just a question
> of sound quality
--
Al Eisner
Mandryka
May 7, 2013, 5:16:24 PM5/7/13
to
Al Eisner
May 7, 2013, 8:25:28 PM5/7/13
to
Okay. The Philips is the same 1986 Amsterdam performance I referred to
(from a Regis CD, which mistakenly states the date as 1988), and I see
from trovar.com that the Praga is a different 1986 performance. I've
only heard that Amsterdam and the 1951 I referred to. Anyway, I'm
quite sold on the Amsterdam, and have no strong incentive to investiage
the (1970) Music & Arts.
--
Al Eisner
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