Kuijken - how pronounced?
Bob Lombard
reason I feel the need to sub-vocally pronounce surmanes when reading
them. I'm pretty sure that QUEE-ken is, ah, incorrect. Maybe one of
our multilingual Dutchmen can provide a series of English-type
phonetics that approximates the right way?
bl
Jan Depondt
"Bob Lombard" <hill...@vermontel.net> schreef in bericht
news:dgpf4v0ggai6hm7sm...@4ax.com...
I'm afraid there's no good example of an English word with the same
pronunciation of the Dutch "ui". It's the same as in 'Johan Cruyff', and there
are no examples of English (or French, or German) people who know how to
pronounce his name ;-(
--
Jan Depondt
____________________________
mail: jdptATwanadoo.nl
Andy Evans
=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.
Bob Lombard
I'm not asking for an English word, just a sound sequence written in
phonetics that might be comprehensible to an English speaker. Seems
like that ought to be possible.
bl
Ward Hardman
: On Mon, 10 Feb 2003 20:44:09 +0100, "Jan Depondt"
: <jdno...@wanadoo.nl> wrote:
:>I'm afraid there's no good example of an English word with the same
:>pronunciation of the Dutch "ui". It's the same as in 'Johan Cruyff', and there
:>are no examples of English (or French, or German) people who know how to
:>pronounce his name ;-(
: I'm not asking for an English word, just a sound sequence written in
: phonetics that might be comprehensible to an English speaker. Seems
: like that ought to be possible.
I once knew a Dutch girl who told me that the "ui" was pronounced like "AR"
in Dutch. She said that the Dutch word for "mouse" was "muis," pronounced
"MARS." She said that the Zuider Zee (does it still exist?) was pronounced
"ZARTER ZAY," but then she may have been pulling my leg. ;-)
If I wasn't (charmingly) misinformed, then "Kuijken" may be pronounced
"KARKEN," but I'm speculating here.
--Ward Hardman
"The older I get, the more I admire and crave competence, just simple
competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
- H.L. Mencken
Steven Van Impe
> I'm not asking for an English word, just a sound sequence written in
> phonetics that might be comprehensible to an English speaker. Seems
> like that ought to be possible.
If you pronounce it like "Kiken" it gets close, and with an added
short o-sound before the i it will sound just fine! I really can't
think of an English "ui"-sound.
Steven
derma...@_psam_mail.kar.net
Jan Winter
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/dutch.htm
gives "k9yken" for Kuijken (or kuiken, which means the same: chicken),
but I suppose you are not very much helped with this.
Or try this:
http://www.elis.rug.ac.be/ELISgroups/speech/research/eurovocsold.html
Go to Old Version (just on top), than to Dutch Eurovocs. Listen and be
especially attentive at the word "broodkruim". The "ui" in
"broodkruim" = the "ui" in Kuijken. Although the speaker isn't Dutch
but Flemish, the sound in this word is the same. Anyway, Kuijken is
Flemish too.
--
Jan Winter, Amsterdam
[j.wi...@xs4all.nl]
There is no such thing as a wrong note
(Art Tatum)
Jan Depondt
"Ward Hardman" <har...@sciences.sdsu.edu> schreef in bericht
news:b297qd$9ro$1...@gondor.sdsu.edu...
|
| I once knew a Dutch girl who told me that the "ui" was pronounced like "AR"
| in Dutch. She said that the Dutch word for "mouse" was "muis," pronounced
| "MARS." She said that the Zuider Zee (does it still exist?) was pronounced
| "ZARTER ZAY," but then she may have been pulling my leg. ;-)
|
| If I wasn't (charmingly) misinformed, then "Kuijken" may be pronounced
| "KARKEN," but I'm speculating here.
|
I presume she did the best she could to bring you a little closer.
But I'm quite shure that most Dutch people would not understand that you mean
'Kuycken' when saying 'Karken'. Even less people would hear 'muis' when
somebody is saying 'MARS' (because 'Mars' is an existing word in Dutch,
meaning Mars and meaning march).
Jan Depondt
|
| I'm not asking for an English word, just a sound sequence written in
| phonetics that might be comprehensible to an English speaker. Seems
| like that ought to be possible.
|
I think it is not possible. But maybe there's somebody very clever with
phonetics.
The only way would be the help of a sound file; but even then it will be a
hard job for English (or French or German) speaking people to repeat that
sound correctly.
Jan Winter
wrote:
>I once knew a Dutch girl who told me that the "ui" was pronounced like "AR"
>in Dutch. She said that the Dutch word for "mouse" was "muis," pronounced
>"MARS." She said that the Zuider Zee (does it still exist?) was pronounced
>"ZARTER ZAY," but then she may have been pulling my leg. ;-)
She most certainly was.
Andy Evans
She most certainly was.>
When my brother visited neighbouring Denmark his host informed him with great
seriousness that Denmark was a very formal society and on no account should he
fail to observe the social niceties of greetings. He made him practice again
and again the 'formal danish introduction' which was 'jeg er en kartoffel'
(?sp) i.e. "I am a potato"
benjo maso
Phonetically spelled it is K'oeyken (the o and the e should be joined).
Benjo Maso
Edward A. Cowan
>
> I'm afraid there's no good example of an English word with the same
> pronunciation of the Dutch "ui". It's the same as in 'Johan Cruyff', and there
> are no examples of English (or French, or German) people who know how to
> pronounce his name ;-(
I, too, should like to arrive at a likely approximation of the
"standard" pronunciation of this name and others like it. I have been
told that the pronunciation of "uij" in Dutch is like a diphthong of
o-umlaut plus u-umlaut -- "öü" -- such that one would say "köüken". Is
this at all close?
--E.A.C.
Bob Lombard
hillbilly can properly assimilate. I'm going with Stanford's 'IR
something like a New Englander bird", even though there are Down
Easter, Rhode Islander and Vermonter birds.
bl
Margaret Mikulska
> I'm not asking for an English word, just a sound sequence written in
> phonetics that might be comprehensible to an English speaker. Seems
> like that ought to be possible.
It's not. The Dutch "ui" is a peculiar diphthong, very interesting, but
I can't imagine its pronunciation can be rendered in writing and in
English at that. You just have to hear it.
-Margaret
Jan Depondt
"Margaret Mikulska" <miku...@europe.com> schreef in bericht
news:3E48855C...@europe.com...
And even after hearing it you will probably not succeed in pronouncing it
correctly.
Jan Depondt
"Edward A. Cowan" <eac...@anet-dfw.com> schreef in bericht
news:1fq6l6m.ct07uw1kmreidN%eac...@anet-dfw.com...
That looks quite close.
My dictionary says about "diphthong": tweeklank (= two sounds). But the
"ui"-sound is essentially ONE sound, and not two sounds after each other.
Christian Ohn
Just in case you know French: the closest approximation I can think of for the
"uij" in "Kuijken" is the "oei" in the French word "oeil". But even that is not
a perfect match.
--
Christian Ohn
e-mail: christian|dot|ohn|at|univ|hyphen|valenciennes|dot|fr
sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
: It's not. The Dutch "ui" is a peculiar diphthong, very interesting, but
: I can't imagine its pronunciation can be rendered in writing and in
: English at that. You just have to hear it.
set, but to the best of my knowledge, the IPA has a symbol for *every*
phoneme used in a language spoken by humans somewhere (and, according to
a funny story I once heard, phonemes that are in fact not part of any
language). I agree that one apparently has to be Dutch to be able to
pronounce the Dutch "ui" sound. The closest approximation that I can
think of is the "ow" sound of the English word "how" as it might be
pronounced by a cat with a sore throat.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
It's a bird, it's a plane -- no, it's Mozart. . .
Jan Depondt
<sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il> schreef in bericht
news:b2af38$5s6$1...@news.iucc.ac.il...
|
| It may not be possible to render it in English using the standard character
| set, but to the best of my knowledge, the IPA has a symbol for *every*
| phoneme used in a language spoken by humans somewhere (and, according to
| a funny story I once heard, phonemes that are in fact not part of any
| language). I agree that one apparently has to be Dutch to be able to
| pronounce the Dutch "ui" sound. The closest approximation that I can
| think of is the "ow" sound of the English word "how" as it might be
| pronounced by a cat with a sore throat.
|
That's how it is! But only if the cat is a drunk boy soprano cat, early in the
morning mourning not to have catched a puik kuiken.
BTW. When at school I learned to pronounce 'Zeus' (the Greek god) as 'Zuis'.
And almost all from the Greek language originating 'eu'-sounds are pronounced
in Dutch as 'ui', like euphorie, euthanasie, eureka. How do real Greeks
pronounce their 'eu'?
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
letters to be typed in news:b2aj7t$1agais$1...@ID-79646.news.dfncis.de:
> BTW. When at school I learned to pronounce 'Zeus' (the Greek god) as
> 'Zuis'. And almost all from the Greek language originating 'eu'-sounds
> are pronounced in Dutch as 'ui', like euphorie, euthanasie, eureka. How
> do real Greeks pronounce their 'eu'?
Apparently, something like "eff."
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark Coy tossed off eBay? http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B734C02
RMCR's most pointless, dumb and laughable chowderhead: Mark Coy.
Phil Garon
Andy Evans
I was deceived by my Norwegian into thinking the word meant kitchen, not
chicken. However the Norwegian kjokken is also one sound.
Simon Roberts
aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker says...
>
>But the "ui"-sound is essentially ONE sound>>
>
>I was deceived by my Norwegian into thinking the word meant kitchen, not
>chicken. However the Norwegian kjokken is also one sound.
Bloody foreigners
Simon
Brendan R. Wehrung
Perhaps Radio Netherlands can be persuaded to add him to their
pronunciation guide (tonight only showing machine language instead of
launching a sound reader):
http://www.rnw.nl/cgi/?app=rnmusic&sessie=&page=pronunciations&letter=K
He's not on it right now unless they spell his name differently.
Brendan
Margaret Mikulska
> |
> | > I'm not asking for an English word, just a sound sequence written in
> | > phonetics that might be comprehensible to an English speaker. Seems
> | > like that ought to be possible.
> |
> | It's not. The Dutch "ui" is a peculiar diphthong, very interesting, but
> | I can't imagine its pronunciation can be rendered in writing and in
> | English at that. You just have to hear it.
>
> And even after hearing it you will probably not succeed in pronouncing it
> correctly.
Not like a native speaker, certainly. But last summer when I was in
Leuven, inflicting my rudimentary Dutch/Flemish on the natives, I was
immediately understood even when I had to pronounce this supposedly
unpronounceable diphthong. You understimate my language skills.
It's only the English pronunciation that I still find difficult ...
-Margaret
Margaret Mikulska
>
> In article <3E48855C...@europe.com>, Margaret Mikulska <miku...@europe.com> wrote:
>
> : It's not. The Dutch "ui" is a peculiar diphthong, very interesting, but
> : I can't imagine its pronunciation can be rendered in writing and in
> : English at that. You just have to hear it.
>
> It may not be possible to render it in English using the standard character
> set, but to the best of my knowledge, the IPA has a symbol for *every*
> phoneme used in a language spoken by humans somewhere (and, according to
> a funny story I once heard, phonemes that are in fact not part of any
> language).
Sure, that's why IPA was invented. But I was referring specifically to
rendering it in English, the way almost everybody does it in this group.
> I agree that one apparently has to be Dutch to be able to
> pronounce the Dutch "ui" sound. The closest approximation that I can
> think of is the "ow" sound of the English word "how" as it might be
> pronounced by a cat with a sore throat.
A *muzzled* cat. My approximation would be: try to pronounce "ow"
imagining at the same time that your mouth is constrained by a sort of
muzzle. I don't hear the sore throat part, however, but I have never
seen or heard a cat with a sore throat.
-Margaret
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
following letters to be typed in news:3E49E14C...@europe.com:
I do, often. The fluffy orange cat which lives here sometimes cracks her
meows in the middle, like "myah ... ow."
sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
: It's pronounced: "Rafe"
It's spelled "Luxury Yacht," but it's pronounced "Throatwobbler Mangrove."
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system
of government."
Nils-Eivind Naas
news:20030211165039...@mb-mk.aol.com:
> But the "ui"-sound is essentially ONE sound>>
>
> I was deceived by my Norwegian into thinking the word meant
> kitchen, not chicken. However the Norwegian kjokken is also one
> sound.
Really? How do you reach this conclusion?
Robert Neill
someone could have started us out: Cow-kin, which is how we've been
pronouncing it in Western Massachusetts since the days of Jonathan
Edwards.
Jan Depondt
"Robert Neill" <rne...@clarku.edu> schreef in bericht
news:b47bb2ec.03021...@posting.google.com...
And that's how we allways will be able to recognize Americans: "say: Kuijken"
(like in World War II Germans could be recognised by: "say: Scheveningen").
Larry Rinkel
news:b2acn5$r9a$1...@netserv.univ-lille1.fr...
Lots of Dutch names and words are pronounced on these web pages, and you can
even email the author with "requests":
http://www.stanford.edu/~sipma/dupron.html
http://www.stanford.edu/~sipma/dureq.html
Brendan R. Wehrung
Even in a country as small as the Netherlands there are probably regional
differences. Does one worry about that when pronouncing a name?
Brendan
Bob Lombard
Wehrung) wrote:
>Even in a country as small as the Netherlands there are probably regional
>differences. Does one worry about that when pronouncing a name?
>
>Brendan
Regional accents are strange things. The "'ir' as in 'bird' spoken by
a New Englander" that Stanford suggested made no sense to me (a New
Englander) until after a Fleming who speaks both Dutch and English
emailed me with a suggested approximation: the 'u' sound from 'hut' or
'but' + the 'i' sound from 'hit' or bit'. Smeared together, I guess.
When I tried this out, It actually does sound *something* like that
'ir' in bird - as spoken by Jack Kennedy!
But not real close.
bl
Christian Ohn
> Even in a country as small as the Netherlands there are probably regional
> differences.
Indeed, there are. But the biggest differences in Dutch pronounciation are
between The Netherlands and Belgium.
> Does one worry about that when pronouncing a name?
As far as the "ui" is concerned, those differences happen to be pretty small.
Christian Ohn
> And that's how we allways will be able to recognize Americans: "say: Kuijken"
> (like in World War II Germans could be recognised by: "say: Scheveningen").
...or like Frenchmen can be recognized by "say: Katwijk aan Zee" :-)
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
letters to be typed in news:lnsm4vkn7dhjenomn...@4ax.com:
Or how about the playwright's landlady in "The Producers," going on and on
about "him and his lousy, stinkin', boiiiiiiiiiiiids!"
GMcNally
> "Bob Lombard" <hill...@vermontel.net> schreef in bericht
> news:eg6g4vojn1tsll1km...@4ax.com...
>
> > I'm not asking for an English word, just a sound sequence written in
> > phonetics that might be comprehensible to an English speaker. Seems
> > like that ought to be possible.
>
> short o-sound before the i it will sound just fine! I really can't
> think of an English "ui"-sound.
Isn't the Dutch for house spelled 'huis' but pronounced the same as
the English word? And the same for compounds, such as siekenhuis.
Jerry
>
>
> Steven
Jan Winter
No, it isn't. It's pronounced as Kuijken. The ui that is.
--
Jan Winter, Amsterdam
[j.wi...@xs4all.nl]
There is no such thing as a wrong note
(Art Tatum)
Frank Decolvenaere
> The name shows up frequently, and I always stumble over it. For some
> reason I feel the need to sub-vocally pronounce surmanes when reading
> them. I'm pretty sure that QUEE-ken is, ah, incorrect. Maybe one of
> our multilingual Dutchmen can provide a series of English-type
> phonetics that approximates the right way?
>
>
Try this (FWIW, American English is my first and "native" language):
say the diphthong ay[as in bay]-ee[as in meet] "normally";
then say it with your mouth pursed (like you just sucked on a lemon,
or like the cartoon character that just stuck its mouth in alum).
That should come close. If you know French, it's also very similar
to the sound in "feuille."
Also, for the pronunciation of the "ken" part, say "kin" [or kun (with
the "un" as in "fun")] with the same (very) pursed mouth.
HTH.
Frank Decolvenaere
To reply by e-mail, replace NMBR with 1612.
"You are no bigger than
the things that annoy you."
Jerry Bundsen
Praetorius
> The name shows up frequently, and I always stumble over it. For some
> reason I feel the need to sub-vocally pronounce surmanes when reading
> them. I'm pretty sure that QUEE-ken is, ah, incorrect. Maybe one of
> our multilingual Dutchmen can provide a series of English-type
> phonetics that approximates the right way?
>
> bl
Try this (FWIW, American English is my first and "native" language):
Say the diphthong ay[as in bay]-ee[as in meet] "normally";