Celibidache Bruckner 8 MPO Tokyo 20 Oct 90 just issued by Altus
RiRiIII
Thanks
Alex
M forever
> Any comments on this performance?
I don't know this disc but it might be interesting. I heard C and the
MP live many times during the 80s and 90s (including Bruckner 8), and
I often complain that most of the recordings issued on EMI do not
reflect what that sounded like *at all*. The reason for that may be
the problematic acoustics of the Philharmonie am Gasteig which the BR
engineers tried to counter with close-micing which in turn breaks up
the sound in a way in which it never sounded in real life. The C sound
was extremely round and smooth, had a lot of depth and color but it
was rarely aggressive and edgy. He never allowed the brass to play
with a forced and steely sound which at first was a shock because the
sound was so round and (relatively) soft, but it was so well blended,
tuned, and balanced that it was actually *louder* and *bigger* than
many orchestras in which the brass blare like a marching band.
Anyway, some recordings from other sources capture that better, so if
this recording here does, I would be interested.
rje
I believe this is the soundtrack to the video recording that was made
at Suntory Hall in 1990 and was at one time available on Sony VHS and
Laser discs. If that is the case, it is, IMO, one of the great
Bruckner 8ths.
Ray
RiRiIII
After checking the on line Bruckner discography, it is as you say.
Alex
Paul
I've got the DVD. It really helps to see how he shapes the
performance. Audio-only does something of a disservice. I saw him
several times with the London Symphony in the late 70s & 80s, always
an amazing experience, even if his readings were sometimes
controversial, and always thought-provoking.
Paul
M forever
> On Sep 5, 8:14 am, RiRiIII <alex_ri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 5 Sep, 06:42, rje <opu...@gmail.com> wrote:
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> > > On Sep 4, 3:59 pm, RiRiIII <alex_ri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Any comments on this performance?
>
> > > > Thanks
>
> > > > Alex
>
> > > I believe this is the soundtrack to the video recording that was made
> > > at Suntory Hall in 1990 and was at one time available on Sony VHS and
> > > Laser discs. If that is the case, it is, IMO, one of the great
> > > Bruckner 8ths.
>
> > > Ray
>
> > After checking the on line Bruckner discography, it is as you say.
>
> > Alex
>
> I've got the DVD. It really helps to see how he shapes the
> performance. Audio-only does something of a disservice.
That's a pretty damning statement if you think about it!
> I saw him
> several times with the London Symphony in the late 70s & 80s, always
> an amazing experience, even if his readings were sometimes
> controversial, and always thought-provoking.
>
> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Paul
What I meant was that just hearing the performance only gives you one
dimension. If you were actually present in the hall, or watched a film
of the concert, the whole experience is somehow (to me at least)
enhanced. Please excuse my clumsy phrasing.
Paul
M forever
No problem. Being in the hall is obviously always a more complete and
intense experience. I like to watch concert ideos, too, because it is
just fun to watch great ensembles perform together and to see the
conductor at work (well, not always...), but I think an audio-only
recording of music should be sufficient to listen to if it is a good
performance.
You totally hit the nail on the head though, so there is no reason to
apologize. Many of Celididache's performances do not come across on
recordings because they are so one-dimensional, so focused on
celebrating every note. It's easier to watch the performances than to
just listen to them. What he did was half total genius, half total BS.
I saw him often in concert with the MP and also his return to the BP.
The sound he could get from an orchestra was incredibly nuanced but
his "interpretations" did not make any musical sense except to
showcase that sound and to serve as a backfrop for him posing as the
great zen master.
That's why I posted earlier to inquire about the sound quality.
Because if a recording is really "realistically" recorded, meaning
that it captures the sound of the MP as it was under him, it can be
interesting to listen to for that reason. But if it is not so well
recorded and the sound is broken up, as on most of the EMI recordings,
there is nothing left other than an orchestra crawling through
overextended, disjointed music.
Bob Harper
(snip)
But if it is not so well
> recorded and the sound is broken up, as on most of the EMI recordings,
> there is nothing left other than an orchestra crawling through
> overextended, disjointed music.
Which CD only Celi performances would you call satisfactory? I.e., they
give the home listener a reasonable facsimile of what he was like in the
hall.
Bob Harper
M forever
I don't really know. I never searched and compared systematically. I
listened to a number of the EMI releases and found them often highly
unsatisfactory (see above). TBH, the whole Celibidache thing has never
interested me that much to spend a lot of time on searching
systematically for better recordings. It was a fascinating experience
to hear the MP live under him, but like I said, I also quickly
realized that the performances were musically rather one-dimensional.
The whole C thing was as much a big personality show as any other
"star" conductor, maybe even more so, with the exception that C made a
huge thing out of being the "anti-star" conductor. He really was a
tragic case. A great talent who was his own worst enemy.
I never bought the whole story about why he didn't want to make
recordings either. I think it was more a position he took because he
wanted to discredit Karajan who was the prince of the recording
industry and whom he apparently blamed for his own failure to make a
career fitting his talents. But K had nothing to do with that. When
the time came to elect Furtwängler's successor, C had already fallen
out with the BP and wasn't even an option.
If you see some of the early concert films, you see that C was just as
much a poser as K was, maybe with less style and more cheap drama, and
he never really seemed to develop much artistically. He just switched
to posing as the zen master later. A zen master who - very un-zen-like
- spend a lot of time explaining to everyone why he was so totally
zen.
What struck me the most was how live, the MP sounded a lot like the BP
under K. It was basically the same very rich, rounded, very well
balanced and deeply sonorous kind of sound, with the one exception
that C never allowed the orchestra to play really loud (see above) -
and, of course, the excessively slow tempi. Those do not seem to have
been the result of an artistic maturing process though. As recordings
now tell us, he pretty much switched to that at some point in the
mid-70s or so. At that point, he had finally found the persona that
caught on and made him the guru figure he impersonated in his last 20
years or so.
Still, for what it really was - a show -, it was a pretty good show so
I wouldn't mind hearing some recordings which recreate some of those
concert experiences, so maybe I will look around some more.
I do seem remember there was a live Bruckner 5 from the opening of the
Gasteig which seemed to sound quite "realistically" - despite what I
said about the problems with recordings made in the Gasteig. It seems
that the BR hadn't found their later typical setup yet and so ended up
making a recording which was actually more realistic than their later,
much more closemiced ones. I also once heard a live Bruckner 8 from
Lisbon which also sounded pretty good. I have to see if I can find
those discs (they were sent to me by a friend who had captured them
off the air) and relisten to doublecheck my impressions.
That's why I am mildly interested in those Japanese live recordings.
They might be pretty good, just like the Japanese live recordings of L
sound more like the "real thing" than many DG releases.
Bob Harper
Thanks for the detailed response. The ultra-slow tempi may have
been--indeed, probably were--a pose, but for me sometimes they work
(Bruckner 4 and 6) to overwhelming effect. Still, he remains overall a
curious case.
Bob Harper
Ray Hall
If I ever needed more Bruckner, it would have to be Celi.
Ray Hall, Taree
Paul
I've got that Bruckner 5th, inaugural concert of the Gasteig Hall.
Very impressive, in pretty good sound & clear picture (probably ex-
LaserDisc, can't quite recall).
Paul
M forever
Why?
M forever
I didn't know there was also a video of that.
Ray Hall
I like the tonal colours he draws from his orchestra, mostly the Munich
PO. Warm, expansive brass, beautifully judged string phrasing. Maybe the
architecture is not as focussed as in other accounts, especially K and
Tintner, but I like the way tends to glory in the 'moment'. To some
extent I appreciate colour, and texture, perhaps even more than I
appreciate form.
Celi's Bruckner is also unlike most others, and his tempos don't worry
me too much, especially in Bruckner.
I have Jochum (Dresden), Tintner, a lot of HvK, Boehm, Walter, Klemp,
and a wild assortment of other individual conductors such as Haitink,
Szell, etc. Tintner would be the one I would choose for unity of form,
Jochum for the brass, Haitink for the early symphonies, K for resilience.
I should add too, that I was introduced to Bruckner via a BBC broadcast
of the 8th, given by Goodall, which to these ears has not been easily
surpassed. Celi reminds me a tad of Goodall's approach.
Ray Hall, Taree