Chopin by Patrick Cohen
fh...@midway.uchicago.edu
Dear connossieurs of HIP recordings,
I recently saw Patrick Cohen's recordings of Chopin Mazurkas on
the Glossa label and thought at least the cover image was
appealing. But had anyone heard the performances themselves
and how are they? Thanks in advance for any input.
Fang-lin
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Simon Roberts
fh...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
: Dear connossieurs of HIP recordings,
: I recently saw Patrick Cohen's recordings of Chopin Mazurkas on
: the Glossa label and thought at least the cover image was
: appealing. But had anyone heard the performances themselves
: and how are they? Thanks in advance for any input.
Well, let me just observe that, unlike every other recording of this
music I've encountered, they don't all fit on two discs; there will
be a third.... (The first two aren't well filled, by the way; 89 minutes
only.) Not only are they slow, they are extremely mannered, as though
played by someone who had heard about, but never heard, rubato, and
assumed that written descriptions he saw were serious understatements. It
has a certain perversity attraction, like everything else he does, I
suppose, but it's a bit much. I would direct you instead to a recording
of 113 minutes worth of them (not all, but perhaps enough) by Cor de Groot
on a Dutch label, Haags Gemeentemuseum, in which he plays a 1847 Pleyel.
This may be out of print, or only available from that museum (it was
distributed briefly in the U.S. by Allegro), but if you find it I expect
you would like it more.
Simon
fh...@midway.uchicago.edu
Thanks Simon (I know you would have heard it)again for the
precious info and insight. Even though the 2CD's are offered
at the price of one, thanks to you I know where they have come
from. I will invest my money elsewhere (Staier's Schubert or
Haydn, or the de Groot discs you mention, if I ever see them)
instead.
Fang-lin
In article <6jqup8$jsj$9...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Piotr Kaminski
fh...@midway.uchicago.edu a écrit:
> Dear connossieurs of HIP recordings,
>
> I recently saw Patrick Cohen's recordings of Chopin Mazurkas on
> the Glossa label and thought at least the cover image was
> appealing. But had anyone heard the performances themselves
> and how are they? Thanks in advance for any input.
I agree with Simon, up to a (small) point : sorry, but I'm not a fan of de
Groot either, finding him bland. Cohen is anything but bland : it's
obnoxious with 'intentions', all of them wrong. If I had to quote one
problem, it would be : he never dances, unless it's with one wooden and one
broken leg. But there's a lot more to say against it. He doesn't know the
first thing about this music.
If you want to hear how Chopin Mazurkas should sound like, rubato and all,
here's The First Address : Ignaz Friedman (recently on Dante). Then you
might go to Rubinstein, or to William Kapell, but Friedman is Mazurka like
Callas is Tosca.
PK
Simon Roberts
Piotr Kaminski (wapi...@imaginet.fr) wrote:
: fh...@midway.uchicago.edu a écrit:
: > Dear connossieurs of HIP recordings,
: >
: > I recently saw Patrick Cohen's recordings of Chopin Mazurkas on
: > the Glossa label and thought at least the cover image was
: > appealing. But had anyone heard the performances themselves
: > and how are they? Thanks in advance for any input.
: I agree with Simon, up to a (small) point : sorry, but I'm not a fan of de
: Groot either, finding him bland.
[snip]
Oh, I don't disagree; my recommendation is merely in the context of
someone's inquiry into a HIP recording....
Simon
fh...@midway.uchicago.edu
Thanks, Piotr, for sharing your opinions. It is actually
the first time I heard the name of Ignaz Friedmann. So far
I've found out that some of his recordings (made rather
early?)are available here in the US on the Pearl and
Nimbus labels. The Dante recordings are yet to be found
here.
Fang-lin
In article <3561E71...@imaginet.fr>,
wapi...@imaginet.fr wrote:
>
> fh...@midway.uchicago.edu a écrit:
>
> > Dear connossieurs of HIP recordings,
> >
> > I recently saw Patrick Cohen's recordings of Chopin Mazurkas on
> > the Glossa label and thought at least the cover image was
> > appealing. But had anyone heard the performances themselves
> > and how are they? Thanks in advance for any input.
>
> I agree with Simon, up to a (small) point : sorry, but I'm not a fan of de
> Groot either, finding him bland. Cohen is anything but bland : it's
> obnoxious with 'intentions', all of them wrong. If I had to quote one
> problem, it would be : he never dances, unless it's with one wooden and one
> broken leg. But there's a lot more to say against it. He doesn't know the
> first thing about this music.
>
> If you want to hear how Chopin Mazurkas should sound like, rubato and all,
> here's The First Address : Ignaz Friedman (recently on Dante). Then you
> might go to Rubinstein, or to William Kapell, but Friedman is Mazurka like
> Callas is Tosca.
>
> PK
>
>
fh...@midway.uchicago.edu
As someone interested in HIP recordings (amidst all good
music making), I've found that Chopin performed on his
kind of instruments have been hard to find. Is there any
GOOD (not necessarily excellent) recording of HIP Chopin
out there that can do justice to this music?
Ditto for Schumann's solo repertoire.
thanks in advance,
Fang-lin
In article <6jqup8$jsj$9...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
si...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Simon Roberts) wrote:
> Well, let me just observe that, unlike every other recording of this
> music I've encountered, they don't all fit on two discs; there will
> be a third.... (The first two aren't well filled, by the way; 89 minutes
> only.) Not only are they slow, they are extremely mannered, as though
> played by someone who had heard about, but never heard, rubato, and
> assumed that written descriptions he saw were serious understatements. It
> has a certain perversity attraction, like everything else he does, I
> suppose, but it's a bit much. I would direct you instead to a recording
> of 113 minutes worth of them (not all, but perhaps enough) by Cor de Groot
> on a Dutch label, Haags Gemeentemuseum, in which he plays a 1847 Pleyel.
> This may be out of print, or only available from that museum (it was
> distributed briefly in the U.S. by Allegro), but if you find it I expect
> you would like it more.
>
> Simon
>
Simon Roberts
fh...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
: As someone interested in HIP recordings (amidst all good
: music making), I've found that Chopin performed on his
: kind of instruments have been hard to find. Is there any
: GOOD (not necessarily excellent) recording of HIP Chopin
: out there that can do justice to this music?
Yes; Luc Devos' recording on Ricercar of the Nocturnes is pretty
impressive.
Simon
Piotr Kaminski
fh...@midway.uchicago.edu a écrit:
> Thanks, Piotr, for sharing your opinions. It is actually
> the first time I heard the name of Ignaz Friedmann. So far
> I've found out that some of his recordings (made rather
> early?)are available here in the US on the Pearl and
> Nimbus labels. The Dante recordings are yet to be found
> here.
His most famous recording, other than the Mazurkas, is the Kreutzer Sonata with
Bronislaw Huberman - to some (to me, for instance) still the team to beat.
Danacord has issued the complete Friedman recordings in the eighties, but only in
LP format (unless the CD transfer has escaped me). Anyway, seek him out, and good
luck.
PK
Piotr Kaminski
Simon Roberts a écrit:
> Piotr Kaminski (wapi...@imaginet.fr) wrote:
> : fh...@midway.uchicago.edu a écrit:
>
> : > Dear connossieurs of HIP recordings,
> : >
> : > I recently saw Patrick Cohen's recordings of Chopin Mazurkas on
> : > the Glossa label and thought at least the cover image was
> : > appealing. But had anyone heard the performances themselves
> : > and how are they? Thanks in advance for any input.
>
> : I agree with Simon, up to a (small) point : sorry, but I'm not a fan of de
> : Groot either, finding him bland.
> [snip]
>
> Oh, I don't disagree; my recommendation is merely in the context of
> someone's inquiry into a HIP recording....
I have more or less guessed that much. Maybe someone like Zimerman would like to
play with the idea on an original Pleyel one of these days. Knowing him a
little, I don't find that completely improbable.
PK
Simon Roberts
Piotr Kaminski (wapi...@imaginet.fr) wrote:
: I have more or less guessed that much. Maybe someone like Zimerman would like to
: play with the idea on an original Pleyel one of these days. Knowing him a
: little, I don't find that completely improbable.
I note that there's a new disc from Emanuel Ax coming out of the second
piano concerto and some other piano/orchestra works, which the June
Gramophone reviewer (I forget who) seems to like. I wish he had recorded
solo music instead, but....
Simon
fh...@midway.uchicago.edu
Yes, I like the recordings well too. But how do you
consider Alexis Lubimov's recording of the Ballades
on Erato? Thanks,
Fang-lin (hoping that Staier will play some solo
Schumann for us someday)
In article <6jtdt0$3b$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
Simon Roberts
fh...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
: Yes, I like the recordings well too. But how do you
: consider Alexis Lubimov's recording of the Ballades
: on Erato? Thanks,
Oh, I forgot them; it's so long since I listened that I can't remember
enough about them; I think I was vaguely underwhelmed -- but now you've
got me interested in listening again....
Simon
Simon Roberts
fh...@midway.uchicago.edu wrote:
: Yes, I like the recordings well too. But how do you
: consider Alexis Lubimov's recording of the Ballades
: on Erato? Thanks,
: Fang-lin (hoping that Staier will play some solo
: Schumann for us someday)
I forgot to mention a few other recordings. The first, an all-Chopin
recital by John Khouri on Entr'acte playing an 1833 Broadwood, which
features some of the boldest, most reckless Chopin playing you will ever
hear, with some astonishing tempi which, combined with the excitingly
primitive sound of the piano create quite a thrill, expecially in showier
pieces like the Scherzo #1. I'm not sure his technique is quite up to the
task he sets himself, but it's near enough for me, and I very much like
what he does; but I wouldn't be surprised if others don't. Anyway, he
plays Polonaise op. 53, a couple of nocturnes, sonata 3, three mazurkas,
two waltzes, the aforementioned scherzo, and Ballade 2. Next, on Fidelio,
Fania Chapiro plays an 1820 Broadwood in Schumann's Kinderszenen, a Chopin
nocturne, the fantasy impromptu, and a handful of Mendelssohn. This
doesn't impress me much; although her performances seem OK (if nothing
special) they are sabotaged by the extremely dull tone of this piano (or
how it's recorded); why use one so old? Finally a disc on MD&G on which
Joerg Demus plays Schumann's Fantasiestuecke op. 12 and the Humoreske on
an 1835 Graf. I love the sound of his piano and like his interpretations;
his idea of "rasch" isn't mine, but these work rather nicely in contrast
to, say, Argerich. I have no idea if any of these is in print still; and
yes, more from Staier would be nice (though I was disappointed by his
Schumann concerto).
Simon
Frank
>I forgot to mention a few other recordings
Do you know the recording bij Christopher Kite and the Hanover Band of the
1st pianoconcerto? It would make me fall asleep were it not that the sound
is very transparent, the 1848 Broadwood is the perfect instrument and the
hornplayers are incompetent.
It's coupled with Weber's Konzertstück.
Frank
Piotr Kaminski
Simon Roberts a écrit:
> I forgot to mention a few other recordings. The first, an all-Chopin
> recital by John Khouri on Entr'acte playing an 1833 Broadwood, which
> features some of the boldest, most reckless Chopin playing you will ever
> hear, with some astonishing tempi which, combined with the excitingly
> primitive sound of the piano create quite a thrill, expecially in showier
> pieces like the Scherzo #1. I'm not sure his technique is quite up to the
> task he sets himself, but it's near enough for me, and I very much like
> what he does; but I wouldn't be surprised if others don't. Anyway, he
> plays Polonaise op. 53, a couple of nocturnes, sonata 3, three mazurkas,
> two waltzes, the aforementioned scherzo, and Ballade 2. [snip] and
> yes, more from Staier would be nice (though I was disappointed by his
> Schumann concerto).
I'm looking forward to discover Khouri's playing, if the label seems marginal.
As for Staier's Schumann, I would imagine Herreweghe is to blame. I could
never understand why Staier had engaged in this collaboration. Whatever
Herreweghe's merits in Bach and older music (still subject to discussion), his
exploration of most of the early and late Romantics is mostly ludicrous to me
(Missa Solemnis, German Requiem, even Mendelssohn). Our blind listening to
Schumann's IV Symphony left it helpless and naked. Let's just wait for some
'real' Staier with a real conductor. Wild dream : his Mendelssohn Concertos
with Minkowski's whip. Of course, no one shall ever dare such a thing.
PK
Simon Roberts
Piotr Kaminski (wapi...@imaginet.fr) wrote:
: I'm looking forward to discover Khouri's playing, if the label seems marginal.
: As for Staier's Schumann, I would imagine Herreweghe is to blame. I could
: never understand why Staier had engaged in this collaboration. Whatever
: Herreweghe's merits in Bach and older music (still subject to discussion), his
: exploration of most of the early and late Romantics is mostly ludicrous to me
: (Missa Solemnis, German Requiem, even Mendelssohn). Our blind listening to
: Schumann's IV Symphony left it helpless and naked. Let's just wait for some
: 'real' Staier with a real conductor. Wild dream : his Mendelssohn Concertos
: with Minkowski's whip. Of course, no one shall ever dare such a thing.
Don't tell me; live only, no recordings planned.... (but Staier has
recorded the early Mendelssohn concerto, hasn't he?)
S
Simon Roberts
Frank (fra...@dds.nl) wrote:
: >I forgot to mention a few other recordings
Oh, yes, I forgot that too; one of those recordings that could be used to
support the once common view that the HIP movement existed merely to give
employment to musicians who otherwise wouldn't have jobs....
Simon