Naxos reissue of Otello w/Toscanini
david...@aol.com
Naxos has just reissued the NBC SO broadcast of Verdi's Otello with
Toscanini and Vinay:
Here's hoping its an improvement over the first RCA reissue, which is
all I've got at the moment.
-david gable
ansermetniac
The AT Collection cd (VOL 58)was good because it was taken from the
broadcast acetates and not the lp masters that had terrible reverb
added. It is bad because it suffers from Jack Pfieffer's "Antiquation
by Modernization" policy. If the Naxos is taken from the original lps
it is worthless due to the excessive reverb. If it is taken from a set
of off the air discs, as the Guild is, it will be worth a listen.
The voices on the AT collection sound as real as a 3 dollar bill. An
insult to Verdi.
Abbedd
Richard Loeb
news:p1scp3dg47rfsnq05...@4ax.com...
I doubt if it will be taken from the unedited live performance on Guild
since it has a number of flubs that were later corrected (I still prefer
that version to any other edition) Richard
Mark Obert-Thorn
> The AT Collection cd (VOL 58)was good because it was taken from the
> broadcast acetates and not the lp masters that had terrible reverb
> added. It is bad because it suffers from Jack Pfieffer's "Antiquation
> by Modernization" policy. If the Naxos is taken from the original lps
> it is worthless due to the excessive reverb. If it is taken from a set
> of off the air discs, as the Guild is, it will be worth a listen.
The new Naxos release was transferred by Ward Marston from broadcast
acetates and portions of the rehearsals. I would expect it to be the
best transfer yet of this performance.
Mark O-T
Richard Loeb
news:c21ccee8-299a-444a...@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Mark O-T
I'll be getting it - one of the seminal performances of this work and worth
having in the best possible sound. Richard
david...@aol.com
> The new Naxos release was transferred by Ward Marston from broadcast
> acetates and portions of the rehearsals. I would expect it to be the
> best transfer yet of this performance.
>
> Mark O-T
Fantastic! Thanks for the good news, Mark.
-david gable
ansermetniac
<Trans...@aol.com> wrote:
Very good news. It will be interesting to hear what the broadcast
acetates sound like without the assistance of Arthur Fierro.
Abbedd
makropulos
I've just been listening to it this afternoon. It includes all the
broadcast announcements, so Ben Grauer fans will be satisfied too.
Seriously though, it's much the best transfer I've ever heard (I don't
have the Guild, which I would expect to be pretty good too). Bravo
Naxos !
Soundfield
sources of the Toscanini Legacy Collection, along with Seth Winner and
Adrian Cosentini. They pieced together the work as Toscanini wanted
it when the set was issued sometime around 1953, but without the echo
chamber. It would not surprise me if Naxos lifted at least some of
their work from the "Toscanini Collection" CDs of the 1990s, because
those are taken from the actual inside recordings of the rehearsals as
well as broadcast, and then pieced the announcements into the finished
product -- especially as the opening of the first act had the offstage
brass come in a beat too late, and AT had the entire opening taken
from the dress rehearsal. Fierro had an organ pedal point dubbed into
that section to strengthen that line, again, in accordance with
Toscanini's wishes.
dd
On Jan 22, 11:18 pm, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
ansermetniac
<dondr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Nonsense, as usual. Fierro worked from all the surviving inside
>sources of the Toscanini Legacy Collection, along with Seth Winner and
>Adrian Cosentini. They pieced together the work as Toscanini wanted
>it when the set was issued sometime around 1953, but without the echo
>chamber. It would not surprise me if Naxos lifted at least some of
>their work from the "Toscanini Collection" CDs of the 1990s, because
>those are taken from the actual inside recordings of the rehearsals as
>well as broadcast, and then pieced the announcements into the finished
>product -- especially as the opening of the first act had the offstage
>brass come in a beat too late, and AT had the entire opening taken
>from the dress rehearsal. Fierro had an organ pedal point dubbed into
>that section to strengthen that line, again, in accordance with
>Toscanini's wishes.
>
>dd
Maybe what you are saying is true. But the final equalization is crap.
Plain and simple. The entire AT collection is crap. The usual
screaming mids and highs coupled with so much forced bass under 100 by
abusing the capabilities of the digital format. The reputation of the
Maestro is not helped by the AT collection and only fuels his
detractors and myth pushers. There is very little Music on the AT
Collection. Jack Pfieffer was quoted as saying it all sounded like
shit
BTW I heard the 1948 Academic Festival from off the air acetates
recently. Mortimer Frank's description of the CD as "painfully shrill"
is the fault of whoever mastered it. Was that Fierro or Nathaniel
Johnson?
Abbedd
david...@aol.com
Don, thanks for your interesting post.
> Nonsense, as usual.
In all fairness to the Ansermetniac, I'm not sure what's nonsensical
about saying "It will be interesting to hear what the broadcast
acetates sound like without the assistance of Arthur Fierro." No
claim is made here, no prognostication from quirky dogmatic principles
offered.
> the announcements [will perhaps have been pieced] into the finished
> product
I could live without the announcements myself: I hope they're on
separate tracks.
> Fierro had an organ pedal point dubbed into
> that section to strengthen that line, again, in accordance with
> Toscanini's wishes.
The extremely unusual organ pedal is in Verdi's score: Verdi asks,
not for a single note, as in the case of a normal pedal, but for a C,
C#, and D to sound simultaneously throughout the temporale (storm
scene). These notes have nothing to do with the changing and often
difficult to determine keys of the passage or with any of the chords
in it: noise rather than an element of the harmony, they're intended
to create a low rumble that will be perceived viscerally, like the
sound of the floorboards when the recording of a bass guitar in your
downstairs neighbor's apartment is too loud.
-david gable
vhorowitz
> It would not surprise me if Naxos lifted at least some of
> their work from the "Toscanini Collection" CDs of the 1990s,
>
>
That's quite an accusation there.......I think it's safe to say we
would all be ice skating in hell before Ward Marston would resort to
such thievery as you suggest.
James Kahn
>Maybe what you are saying is true. But the final equalization is crap.
>Plain and simple. The entire AT collection is crap. The usual
>screaming mids and highs coupled with so much forced bass under 100 by
>abusing the capabilities of the digital format. The reputation of the
>Maestro is not helped by the AT collection and only fuels his
>detractors and myth pushers. There is very little Music on the AT
>Collection. Jack Pfieffer was quoted as saying it all sounded like
>shit
Silly me, I have the AT "Verdi Recordings" and thought the
Otello sounded pretty decent. Or is that a different mastering
than the "Toscanini Collection" series?
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Todd Schurk
Agreed. A Marston transfer = integrity.
Soundfield
that the performance is derived from:
The broadcasts of December 6 and 13, 1947;
The rehearsals of December 4, 5 and 12, 1947.
The notes on what inserts Toscanini wanted made back in the early
1950s, and from which dates, exist only in the Toscanini Archives,
which was the source of those transfers done by Seth Winner and Adrian
Cosentini, under the supervision of Arthur Fierro, who was Walter
Toscanini's assistant in the 1960s.
The only other circulating Otello rehearsals I know of are from the
orchestral rehearsals only of Acts 2 and 3. Those came indirectly
from Robert Hupka, who owned the original acetates. Hupka made a copy
in the late 1970s for my friend Cesare Civetta (who did a Toscanini
program on Fordham's WFUV Radio at that time). Civetta made a copy
for me, several years later. And Hupka told me he owned those discs,
when I asked, because Hupka and I were friends in the 1980s.
Unless, by some strange coincidence, someone else has complete, inside
copies of the original discs of the rehearsals of December 4, 5 and
12, 1947 -- which I think is highly unlikely -- and also has the notes
of Toscanini's requests for inserts -- which I think is even more
unlikely -- then the Naxos edition clearly is a dub of the "Toscanini
Collection" CDs put out by BMG/RCA 15 years ago, to which Marston has
added the commentary by Ben Grauer. Anyone who has heard the opening
of the first broadcast knows that Toscanini would never have released
the set with the offstage brass coming in so late -- I was shocked to
hear such a mistake when I heard those tapes years later.
David -- you're right about the writing of that pedal point. I merely
point out that Art dubbed it in to give it greater depth, as Toscanini
asked, because that pedal point does not come through well in the
original mono mix of the dress rehearsal, which is what appears on the
authorized editions of the Otello performance.
Back at the Toscanini Symposium in March at the NYPL I mentioned to
Art that there was one usenet member who absolutely hated his work and
is obsessed at the fact that Art was lucky enough to have been in the
employ of Walter in the 1960s. Art packed up the Toscanini Legacy
Collection in 1968 after Walter suffered his crippling stroke, did an
inventory of the Collection at that time, did a second inventory in
1987 when the NYPL acquired the Collection outright from the Toscanini
family, and worked closely with the resident engineer of the Toscanini
Archives, Seth Winner, on the titles he was assigned to do in the
early 1990s.
Art told me that his position was to turn into Jack Pfeiffer
absolutely honest, untampered versions of the original sources with no
bogus EQ or reverb or anything else. If anything was messed up or
reequalized, it was after he submitted his work to Pfeiffer -- who was
hardly a paragon of probity at RCA.
dd
On Jan 24, 11:57 am, Todd Schurk <patterb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
ansermetniac
And who screwed up Fierro's "Honest Work" at Sony. The 1954 BW NYP
Mahler 1, where Fierro was producer and not supervisor, is even worse
than the AT collection. The Japanese release, although bad, is much
better. We will have to wait for Naxos and MOT and his prisitne LP to
hear this wonderful performance correctly
Maybe you are correct. Fierro should pack boxes and take inventory.
Certainly he should be kept away from any devices that can alter the
frequency response of Musical performances and turn them into
electronic facsimiles of Led Zeppelin Concerts.
I don't care who your friends are nor how many names you can drop. I
care only about the Maestro's performances. Not selling them to the
masses I googled some of your opinions of the AT Collection last month
by accident. Your discussions with 8-H Haggis. Maybe Pfieffer screwed
them up so critics and you and Haggis could rave about them
Abbedd
Soundfield
-- one of Art's finest transfers, lacking the booming bass and hyped-
up midrange that are your dubious contributions to the world of
historic recording transfers.
dd
On Jan 24, 4:38 pm, ansermaniac <anserman...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> And who screwed up Fierro's "Honest Work" at Sony. The 1954 BW NYP
> Mahler 1, where Fierro was producer and not supervisor, is even worse
> than the AT collection. [...]
Soundfield
Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No. 2 with Rachmaninoff and Stokowski?
Your hero Jack-Ass Pfeiffer, who also gave us those horrible LP
transfers of Stokowski/Philly material in 1972, and all those fake
stereo, echo-chamber Toscanini/Beethoven symphonies at the same time.
You're full of it.
dd
On Jan 24, 4:38 pm, ansermaniac <anserman...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>[...]
>
> And who screwed up Fierro's "Honest Work" at Sony. The 1954 BW NYP
> Mahler 1, where Fierro was producer and not supervisor, is even worse
> than the AT collection. [...]
ansermetniac
<dondr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Horseshit. That BW/Mahler 1st on Masterworks Heritage is outstanding
>-- one of Art's finest transfers, lacking the booming bass and hyped-
>up midrange that are your dubious contributions to the world of
>historic recording transfers.
LOL. That description is exacty that of Arthur Fierro's work.
The Mahler I mentioned has some of the finest horn playing ever
recorded.
James Chambers
William Namen
Mark Fisher
Dinny
Louis Ricci
Joe Singer,
never sounded like Fierro presented them. Never in a million years.
The soundtsage depth of Fierro's work on that recording is nil. And it
was Carnegie Hall. Only a moron would be expected to believe that the
equipment that Columbia used in 1954 was that innacurate
Abbedd
ansermetniac
<dondr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>And who screwed up the original CD reissue on RCA of the 1929
>Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No. 2 with Rachmaninoff and Stokowski?
>Your hero Jack-Ass Pfeiffer, who also gave us those horrible LP
>transfers of Stokowski/Philly material in 1972, and all those fake
>stereo, echo-chamber Toscanini/Beethoven symphonies at the same time.
>You're full of it.
I never said I liked Pfieffer. I just read on google that he did not
like Fierro's work and said the AT Collection sounded like shit.
Pfieffer is ultimately responsible for the AT Collection as he was top
man
Fierro's work on the LVB cycle of the AT collection is an insult to
the Maestro.
Judging by the AT Collection and the Immortal Series, Walfredo
Toscanini could care less about his Grandfather's work. A real shame.
I assume Nathaniel Johnson sabotoged Fierro's work too
Abbedd
Mark Obert-Thorn
> Unless, by some strange coincidence, someone else has complete, inside
> copies of the original discs of the rehearsals of December 4, 5 and
> 12, 1947 -- which I think is highly unlikely -- and also has the notes
> of Toscanini's requests for inserts -- which I think is even more
> unlikely -- then the Naxos edition clearly is a dub of the "Toscanini
> Collection" CDs put out by BMG/RCA 15 years ago, to which Marston has
> added the commentary by Ben Grauer.
Don, have you actually heard the Naxos issue yet, or are you making
these statements based on what you *think* it may contain? I doubt
you've heard it, since it hasn't been released yet. Also, with all
the Toscanini rehearsal material that has circulated over the years,
how much of a "highly unlikely coincidence" would it be that someone
outside of the NYPL archives might have copies of these rehearsals?
I've known Ward for over 30 years now, and he wouldn't (and wouldn't
need to) plagirize in the way you are suggesting.
Mark Obert-Thorn
vhorowitz
> Unless, by some strange coincidence, someone else has complete, inside
> copies of the original discs of the rehearsals of December 4, 5 and
> 12, 1947 -- which I think is highly unlikely -- and also has the notes
> of Toscanini's requests for inserts -- which I think is even more
> unlikely -- then the Naxos edition clearly is a dub of the "Toscanini
> Collection" CDs put out by BMG/RCA 15 years ago, to which Marston has
> added the commentary by Ben Grauer.
I'm sorry, but it would be a "strange coincidence" if your (now)
repeated assertions that "clearly" Ward Marston has dubbed a
commercial cd was anything but your desire to come off here as an
expert regarding something that you can't possibly know anything
about!
I have known Ward nearly as long as Mark Obert-Thorn, almost 30 years,
and I can attest to this being the furthest thing from his ethos
regarding his work imaginable. Seemingly, it's easy for you to sit
back and divine his working methods, and make pronouncements about
what his sources were on this project, without any firsthand
knowledge. In other words, it's your assumption passed off as
fact.....and it's slander to boot.
I'm sure that Ward Marston has better things to do than defend his
reputation against such half-baked assertions, but I'm sure, if given
the opportunity, he will explain what it's like to have HIS work
ripped off by numerous Italian pirate labels......apparently you now
have put him in that same category, and that is just plain wrong, sir.
Neal
makropulos
Yes. And both the source and working method are clearly stated in the
producer's note on p.4 of the booklet for the Naxos release: "The
source for this reissue is a set of 16 inch lacqueur-coated aluminium
discs" ... "The broadcasts are presented here in their entirety with
applause and all of Ben Grauer's announcements included" ... and "My
only intervention is that I have patched from rehearsals to correct
three obvious mistakes during the performance, an unsung line by Iago
in Act I, and two flubbed entrances in Act II." It's a tremendous
transfer, as i said in an earlier post, and I don't think a producer
can be any more straightforward than Mr. Marston has been in this
instance (as he always is, in my experience).
Richard Loeb
news:1dff661a-e94c-4e90...@k2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
I'm surprised he didn't fix the glaring mistake in Act One already
mentioned. Richard
Soundfield
Can you name for me so much as one person who _just mysteriously
happens_ the exact rehearsal material of December 4, 5 and 12, 1947
other than the Toscanini Archives? Can you name for me one person who
_just mysteriously happens_ to have the notes for the changes
Toscanini wanted in this performance for commercial release, other
then the Toscanini Archives?
With all the Toscanini rehearsal material that has circulated over the
years would you name for me the sources other than the NYPL of those
rehearsals? The only Otello I have seen is the pure orchestral
material that was owned by Robert Hupka, and now is owned by Syracuse
University's Belfer Audio Labs, and as I say, I had dubs of that
material going back to 1980.
DD
> need to) plagarize in the way you are suggesting.
>
> Mark Obert-Thorn
Soundfield
dd
On Jan 25, 7:00 am, "Richard Loeb" <loeb...@comcast.net> wrote:
> [...] And both the source and working method are clearly stated in the
ansermetniac
<dondr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Mark:
>
>Can you name for me so much as one person who _just mysteriously
>happens_ the exact rehearsal material of December 4, 5 and 12, 1947
>other than the Toscanini Archives? Can you name for me one person who
>_just mysteriously happens_ to have the notes for the changes
>Toscanini wanted in this performance for commercial release, other
>then the Toscanini Archives?
Probably the same person who DID NOT provide the source for the
Bruckner 7
Abbedd
>
>With all the Toscanini rehearsal material that has circulated over the
>years would you name for me the sources other than the NYPL of those
>rehearsals? The only Otello I have seen is the pure orchestral
>material that was owned by Robert Hupka, and now is owned by Syracuse
>University's Belfer Audio Labs, and as I say, I had dubs of that
>material going back to 1980.
>
>DD
>
>On Jan 24, 8:30 pm, Mark Obert-Thorn <Transfr...@aol.com> wrote:
>
Soundfield
Discs that are inside masters made by NBC?
dd
makropulos
Someone is thanked in the booklet.
Mark Obert-Thorn
> Mark:
>
> Can you name for me so much as one person who _just mysteriously
> happens_ the exact rehearsal material of December 4, 5 and 12, 1947
> other than the Toscanini Archives? Can you name for me one person who
> _just mysteriously happens_ to have the notes for the changes
> Toscanini wanted in this performance for commercial release, other
> then the Toscanini Archives?
Read my reply again. I never claimed anyone outside the Toscanini
Archives had Toscanini's personal notes on this broadcast.
> With all the Toscanini rehearsal material that has circulated over the
> years would you name for me the sources other than the NYPL of those
> rehearsals?
I don't know where it came from originally, but there is an awful lot
of Toscanini rehearsal material that has come out over the years on a
variety of labels and has circulated among collectors on tape. My
point was that one didn't need to plagirize the RCA CDs, as you
claimed without evidence that Ward Marston had done, in order to
produce a transfer which patches in corrections from the rehearsals.
Mark Obert-Thorn
Soundfield
Here, for the record, is the article from the January 2, 1990 New York
Times on the Toscanini Legacy Collection.
dd
January 2, 1990
Racing Against Time To Save Recordings Of Toscanini's Work
By ALLAN KOZINN
LEAD: In a cluttered corner of the basement of the New York Public
Library at Lincoln Center, Seth B. Winner, an audio engineer, threaded
a reel of film through what is believed to be the world's only extant
Selenophone.
In a cluttered corner of the basement of the New York Public Library
at Lincoln Center, Seth B. Winner, an audio engineer, threaded a reel
of film through what is believed to be the world's only extant
Selenophone.
An ungainly cross between a film projector and a tape recorder, the
selenophone, invented in 1934, was a device that recorded sound on
film. Its advantage, in its day, was that it offered greater
uninterrupted recording and playing time than the era's 78-r.p.m.
disks. Its drawback was that as a film process, the recordings were
made as negatives, and had to be developed and printed before they
could be played back. By the end of World War II, the system was
displaced by more efficient magnetic tape. [NOTE: The photocell was
made of selenium, hence the name Selenophone -- DD]
The thin strip of sound film that Mr. Winner was threading held a
musical treasure - a performance of Wagner's ''Meistersinger,'' one of
five operas recorded on the selenophone at the 1937 Salzburg Festival.
The legendary conductor Arturo Toscanini was on the podium, as he was
for that summer's productions of Mozart's ''Zauberflote'' and Verdi's
''Falstaff.'' The other two works, Mozart's ''Don Giovanni'' and
''Nozze di Figaro,'' were conducted by Bruno Walter, another of the
era's great conductors.
Transfers to Tape
The Selenophone, which came to the library as part of the extensive
Toscanini collection that the library acquired from the conductor's
family in 1987, is essentially a showpiece now. Having carefully
restored the machine, Mr. Winner has spent the last several months
transferring the operas to archival tape, correcting speed problems
and doing some sonic touching up along the way. As a result, there is
really no need to play them on the Selenophone again.
The recordings, which captured Toscanini's final performances of fully
staged, complete operas, may be heard at the Rodgers and Hammerstein
Archives, on the third floor of the Lincoln Center library. Also
available are more than 150 hours of the conductor's rehearsals, a
collection that covers the last 28 years of Toscanini's career,
ranging from recordings made at La Scala in Milan in October 1926,
through his final rehearsal with the NBC Symphony in New York on April
4, 1954. These rehearsal tapes afford a listener a glimpse backstage
as the autocratic Italian conductor, who died in 1957, prepares a
performance. It also gives a broader view of Toscanini's repertory
than his commercial recordings.
''Here's a piece that the maestro never recorded commercially,'' Mr.
Winner said, attaching a special stylus to the tone arm on his modern
turntable, and cueing up a 78-r.p.m. lacquer disk somewhat larger than
an LP. ''It's the Overture to Meyerbeer's 'North Star,' from an NBC
Symphony rehearsal at Carnegie Hall in November 1951. The maestro
rehearsed it and then dropped it.''
The Conductor's Voice
The sound that pours from Mr. Winner's speakers is startlingly crisp
for a 1951 rehearsal recording, and it shows Toscanini, who was then
84 years old, working at full power. Over the bright, polished blasts
of brass, supported by energetic percussion and full-bodied strings,
Toscanini's voice can be heard singing Meyerbeer's melody. And when
the NBC players fail to keep pace with him, his shouts of despair -
''No! A tempo!'' - drown out the ensemble and bring the reading to a
halt.
In addition to the rehearsals, there are hundreds of concert
performance recordings, which will also become part of the library's
working collection as soon as Mr. Winner transfers them. These include
Toscanini's performances with the New York Philharmonic, of which he
was music director from 1928 through 1936, and the NBC Symphony, which
was formed for him in 1937 and which he led until his retirement in
1954.
''I suppose the rehearsals are the most interesting part of the
collection,'' Mr. Winner said, ''but there are some unusual things
among the performance recordings too. For instance, we have a Bruckner
Seventh Symphony that he did with the New York Philharmonic on Jan.
17, 1935. The recordings are on lacquer disks, taken off the air
during a broadcast. Unfortunately, since the person who recorded it
was using a single disk-cutter, there are breaks every 15 minutes,
when the disk had to be changed. It breaks off, for instance,
literally on the last note of the first movement. You could die! If I
could find another source, I could patch it on the archival copy. But
so far, this is the only one.''
Sonically Superior
There are also recordings in the collection that will cheer the hearts
of Toscanini fans who have long complained that the conductor's
officially released recordings are sonically inferior to others of the
period and do not adequately represent Toscanini's work.
''There were a great many master tapes of the recordings Toscanini
made commercially for RCA,'' said Don McCormick, the curator of the
Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives. ''Inevitably, these tapes sound
better than the recordings released at the time. We have been working
with RCA to comb through the collection, and by agreement with the
Toscanini family we are cooperating with them in the hope of producing
better recordings than those that have been available.''
RCA is preparing a series of 80 compact disks called ''The Toscanini
Legacy,'' which is to include all the recordings the conductor
released on the label during his lifetime. The series is due for
release early next year. The library is also considering releasing its
Selenophone recordings on CD.
''There are some pirate recordings of these operas out there,'' Mr.
McCormick said, ''but they don't come close, sonically, to the tapes
we have made here.''
Years of Discussion
Mr. Winner and Mr. McCormick have found all these recordings, and many
more, in the more than 700 crates of materials that make up the
collection the library calls the Toscanini Legacy. The collection was
amassed by the conductor's son, Walter, during and after his father's
lifetime. Besides recordings, it includes letters, notebooks, scores,
photographs, manuscripts and newspaper clippings.
Walter Toscanini began discussing the collection's future with the New
York Public Library in 1970, the year before his death. The
negotiations between the library and the Toscanini family continued
for the next 17 years, during which time there was some thought of
selling the materials, which were valued at around $2 million.
Eventually, the family decided that it would be best to keep the
collection intact, and to keep it in the city that was the focus of
Toscanini's activities during the last 25 years of his life. The
library paid the family a fee reported to be around $350,000, to cover
the costs of packing, inventory and appraisal. The library's
obligation in the arrangement was that it would preserve the materials
and make them available to the public. Toward that end, Wanda
Toscanini Horowitz, the conductor's daughter and the widow of the
pianist Vladimir Horowitz, gave the library $100,000 to help cover the
preservation costs.
Printed Documents, Too
The preservation project includes not only transferring Toscanini's
recordings to archival stock from aging disks, selenophone films and
reels of crumbling tape, but also copying the many one-of-a-kind
printed documents onto acid-free paper. Mr. McCormick estimates that
the project will take another three and a half years.
Transferring the recordings is not just a quick dubbing job. Often,
improvisational ingenuity is required. To play the selenophone films,
for example, Mr. Winner enlisted the aid of John Taddei, a retired CBS-
TV engineer, who replaced the 1930's vintage light source with a
flexible modern one that could be more easily focused, and eliminated
about 20 decibels of hum by replacing the old vacuum tube amplifier
with a modern transistor model. When Mr. Winner discovered that the
drive belt was broken, he replaced it with an automotive fan belt, and
then found ways to compensate for a slight difference in belt sizes.
He also found ways to eliminate speed variations that became
noticeable near the end of each reel.
''I run into all sorts of problems transferring the disks,'' Mr.
Winner said. ''To begin with, I have to find the best copy of the
recording. Often that's an original disk; but sometimes the original
is damaged, and I have to look for a duplicate or a tape backup.
Because cutters ran at different speeds, I begin each transfer by
checking the key of the work, and making the necessary corrections.
And I check the groove sizes so that I can find the right stylus: I
use about a dozen different-size styli. All the transfer information -
what stylus I used, how I made the copy, what sort of filtering or
equalization I might have done - is notated on a technical log that I
keep.''
Engineering Ingenuity
Dealing with such fragile materials inevitably leads to feats of
engineering derring-do.
''You see these?'' Mr. Winner asked, referring to a set of shelved 10-
inch disks. ''These are Toscanini conducting Horowitz in the Brahms
Second Piano Concerto at the Lucerne Festival in August 1939. The
concerto is recorded on 22 three-minute sides, with 30 seconds'
overlap on each. There are two sets of disks, cut with different size
styli. Some of the disks were unplayable, so I had to go to the second
set just to patch in 30 seconds of music. It took me three days to dub
the confounded thing, and when I finished, the grooves of some of the
disks literally started to peel off in my hands.
''It's not the only time that has happened, either,'' Mr. Winner said.
''There was a Dvorak concert, on a Voice of America disk on which the
base had started to oxidize before the lacquer was applied. When we
cleaned it, the water made the acetate just curl away. I had
transferred that disk the day before it fell apart. If I had waited
another day, it would not have been possible.''
Untouched for a Half-Century
''The problem,'' Mr. McCormick explained, ''is that these disks are
made by a layering process, in which different materials are bonded
together. The atmosphere affects those materials in different ways,
and since most of this stuff has sat on a shelf untouched for 40 or 50
years, the simple act of unpacking it and exposing it to the air may
cause irrevocable damage. So we are being very careful about how much
processing we do. We have unpacked and re-sleeved most of the disks.
But we are not cleaning them until we are ready to do the transfers
because it's possible that a cleaning, necessary as it is, will
reactivate the oxidization. You may clean a disk and put it back on
the shelf, and when you look at it again in three months, it has
disintegrated.''
''We are fighting time on this project, no question about it,'' Mr.
Winner said. ''You look at it all, and you say, 'Where do I start?'
While you're looking at one thing, another is deteriorating. I can
show you a 55-year-old lacquer disk that is pretty much intact; but I
can also show you one from 1953 that is oxidizing and falling off the
base. There are tapes made in 1954 that won't play because the
lubrication has dried off. Yet there are tapes from 1951 that are in
perfect shape. There is no rhyme or reason. But these are primary
materials. They are very important, very illuminating. But they are
also very fragile.''
makropulos
>
> Racing Against Time To Save Recordings Of Toscanini's Work
> By ALLAN KOZINN
>
What does it have to do with the specific accusations you have made -
ranging from plagiarizing RCA transfers to using dubbed LPs? It's
clearly stated that what was used for the Naxos transfer is a set of
16-inch lacquers. I should have thought that clear statement should
answer your accusations. But no. You then seem to imply that there
might been some other kind of dubious practice, again without anything
that seems like hard evidence related to this particular case.
I don't get it. Do you think it's somehow a bad idea for one of the
finest audio restorers around to restore this amazing performance -
and to do so extremely well?
ansermetniac
If it ain't Arthur Fierro or Seth Winner he does not want to hear it.
There is a cult that thinks that they are the only two that have the
right to touch Toascanini's legacy. Drewecki is NOT the first that has
claimed that to me. In reality, Mr. Fierro was responsible for almost
half of the abomination called the AT Collection. Mr. Winner's name
was attached to that as well. We can give Mr. Winner the benefit of
the doubt for now, as he is only credited as the transferer of disc
based sources and not producer or supervisor of the final product
I was told that Winner did the Relief Kalinikov. It is terrible
compared to off the air acetates that I have a copy of. The LYS
Ansermet Handel is 100 times better than the Winner Koch CD
If anybody does not realize that attempts to modernize the Maestro's
Legacy only cripples it musically, they have not been listening to
what RCA and BMG has released in the last 50 or more years.
Abbedd
Dontait...@aol.com
I have always tried to avoid controversies here, but I must say that
I -- like Mark O-T and Neal "vhorowitz" -- have known Ward Marston for
many years. 1976 for me. I cannot imagine that he would attempt to
deceive. Frankly, he is too well established as a collector and
source, and too well respected in the collecting community for his
honesty and integrity, for him to need, or I think attempt, to do so.
If there are questions about the provenance of the lacquer discs he
used for portions of the Naxos release, I am sure they can be answered
by Ward in due time.
Don Tait
david...@aol.com
[Report snipped.]
You make me all the more eager to hear this new transfer. Thanks.
-david gable
makropulos
I hope you enjoy it, David.
Soundfield
DON'T ANSWER!!!!
To say 16-inch lacquers without stating WHERE they come from opens up
the whole charge of stealing from the published CDs from BMG/RCA in
1991, because THOSE CDS DO ATTRIBUTE THEIR SOURCES FULLY. Why is that
a difficult concept for you to understand?
DD
On Jan 25, 1:35 pm, makropulos <makropu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 25, 6:13 pm, Soundfield <dondrewe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Racing Against Time To Save Recordings Of Toscanini's Work
> > By ALLAN KOZINN
>
> Very interesting to read that article.
>
> What does it have to do with the specific accusations you have made -
> ranging from plagiarizing RCA transfers to using dubbed LPs? It's
> clearly stated that what was used for the Naxos transfer is a set of
> 16-inch lacquers. I should have thought that clear statement should
> answer your accusations. [...]
makropulos
There's no need to shout. Or to shoot the messenger. Why don't you ask
those responsible for the transfer?
david...@aol.com
> WHOSE 16-INCH LACQUERS???? THAT'S A VERY SIMPLE QUESTION WHICH _YOU_
> DON'T ANSWER!!!!
>
> To say 16-inch lacquers without stating WHERE they come from opens up
> the whole charge of stealing from the published CDs from BMG/RCA in
> 1991, because THOSE CDS DO ATTRIBUTE THEIR SOURCES FULLY. Why is that
> a difficult concept for you to understand?
Nobody on this newsgroup is morally or otherwise obliged to answer
these questions, although anybody who does know the answers is free to
supply them if he or she chooses. Presumably an answer sufficiently
detailed as to satisfy you will be included in the notes on Naxos.
Your beef seems to be with claims that may or may not have been made
that you apparently haven't seen.
-david gable
vhorowitz
> WHOSE 16-INCH LACQUERS???? THAT'S A VERY SIMPLE QUESTION WHICH _YOU_
> DON'T ANSWER!!!!
>
> To say 16-inch lacquers without stating WHERE they come from opens up
> the whole charge of stealing from the published CDs from BMG/RCA in
> 1991, because THOSE CDS DO ATTRIBUTE THEIR SOURCES FULLY. Why is that
> a difficult concept for you to understand?
>
> DD
So.....the implication is that they were......umm...stolen or
something? Is the problem that YOU have access to this source, and
feel nobody else should? That's what I get from your tone. I don't
want to start WW3 here, so try and take this in the right spirit, but
why is it that MANY of the Toscanini fans and experts (at various
times, I have been interested in AT, and I'm certainly eager to have
the best un-gimmicked versions available) get into such singular snits
about the sources? I really would like an explanation, because it
SEEMS like every other "historical" item goes down the pike
unquestioned, whether it should be or not, one accepts that for
whatever reasons, one version sounds better than another, often
because of the ears and intelligence of the remastering engineer. So
we all agree on that, or agree to disagree, with civility or sometimes
rancor, but not asking for SPECIFIC NAMES about who provided certain
source material. Is it because of the way in which RCA/BMG, etc. has
treated his legacy over the years? At least he hasn't been
completely ignored. How many Stokowski Philadelphia orchestra cds
have EVER come out from BMG?
Collectors and/or transfer engineers always provide each other with
source material, especially the ones who are honest about their
methods, and give credit where credit is due, or possible. The good
ones don't settle for what is readily available, but try and determine
who has what will provide the best results, and try and get their
hands on it. That's one of the reasons that someone such as Ward
Marston is sought out....because he DOES know "s%*t from Shinola".
Some labels don't care to provide this information at all, but Naxos
often gives a whole page for notes from the transfer engineer.
Sometimes, a source provider prefers NOT to be credited, for personal
reasons, but I guess some feel free to find satanic implications in
this omission. I suggest you look at the notes to the cd when it
comes out, accept what the sources are or aren't, listen to the damned
thing (I simply can't believe all of this discussion has gone on
before the release has been heard at all!), decide whether you think
it sounds better than BMG's old cd (that IS the point here, right?),
inform us of your opinion, and get on with life, liberty and the
pursuit of more AT material, if that makes you happy.
Neal
Soundfield
transcriptions are very hard to find, anywhere.
And by "transcriptions", I mean, the actual inside NBC sources made
during rehearsals and broadcasts. They don't grow on trees.
Most of what has circulated in the Toscanini underground is usually
two analog-tape generations away from the actual masters; and only a
handful of collectors actually have what are the prime sources -- by
that I mean, the direct-cut, NBC lacquers (through about 1949), and
NBC and RCA tape masters (after 1949).
Take a look at eBay: In the last six years, I could count TWO
occasions in which genuine NBC lacquers were offered for sale:
Toscanini's first engineer, Robert Johnston's NBC discs of the MSG/Red
Cross concert of May 25, 1944 (which were then purchased by a friend
of mine); and the actual linechecks of the broadcast of October 21,
1939, in which every single disc was labeled "8H" and attributed as
all the other NBC linchecks of that era were. (I missed that auction
by four hours, two years ago).
I'm sorry, but discs of these events are VERY difficult to find, let
alone the specific rehearsal discs of December 4, 5 and 12, 1947, and
the broadcasts of December 6 and 13, 1947. That is MUCH TOO MUCH of a
coincidence that ONE engineer has all that stuff, gathered together.
As for Neal's comment, no, not all transfer engineers provide each
other with source material -- if they did, why would there be no
attribution? Why wouldn't they put it out themselves instead of
relying on other engineers to put them out?
If you folks want to live in fantasy-land, go right ahead!
dd
On Jan 26, 6:59 pm, vhorowitz <vladhorow...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [...] Some labels don't care to provide this information at all, but Naxos
> often gives a whole page for notes from the transfer engineer.
> Sometimes, a source provider prefers NOT to be credited, for personal
> reasons, but I guess some feel free to find satanic implications in
> this omission. [....]
ansermetniac
Two generations away from the discs is much better than giving the
first generation tape copy of the discs to Arthur Fierro. The LVB
Leonore 3 from 1939 proves that
Abbedd
vhorowitz
>
> As for Neal's comment, no, not all transfer engineers provide each
> other with source material -- if they did, why would there be no
> attribution? Why wouldn't they put it out themselves instead of
> relying on other engineers to put them out?
>
> If you folks want to live in fantasy-land, go right ahead!
>
> dd
>
source material".....as a group, not every last one of them, how could
I know that? So then you turn the fact that not ALL collectors share
into somehow none of them share, and certainly not your coveted AT
lacquers? What I do know is that of the several dozen or so people I
know and correspond with in this line of work ALL share material. I
guess I know kinder, more generous collectors than you do, otherwise I
would switch to collecting baseball cards or stamps, to be quite
honest.
So, everyone with unique source material should start up their own
record label and issue said material, so that we all know the source
without staying awake at nights with nagging questions as to where
that undubbed last side of the Scheherezade with Wilhelm Havagesse
came from?! Whether or not they are qualified to deal with the
material on a technical level? I'm sorry, but YOU are living in the
fantasy-land, if that's what you think.
Neal
Soundfield
of the Toscanini Otello rehearsals and performances on the actual
original, inside-source NBC lacquers, other than the NYPL? Who?
Oh, by the way, I'd suggest that you folks go to your DVD collections
and toss out all those titles that were mastered from the original
vault negatives and studio masters, drive down to your local grocery
store, and pick up the cheap, $7.99 knockoffs made from scratchy,
splicey, worn copies -- simply to prove your point that the sources
are not important, only the person remastering them is.
dd
On Jan 28, 1:19 pm, vhorowitz <vladhorow...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
vhorowitz
> Well, Neal, then I challenge you to tell me who owns _all five dates_
> of the Toscanini Otello rehearsals and performances on the actual
> original, inside-source NBC lacquers, other than the NYPL? Who?
>
> Oh, by the way, I'd suggest that you folks go to your DVD collections
> and toss out all those titles that were mastered from the original
> vault negatives and studio masters, drive down to your local grocery
> store, and pick up the cheap, $7.99 knockoffs made from scratchy,
> splicey, worn copies -- simply to prove your point that the sources
> are not important, only the person remastering them is.
>
>
> > Neal
These arguments become circular after a while, it's clear you have
strong opinions about the particular ownership of this
recording.....personally, I care about the ethics as you do, but not
about the particulars of discussing that subject at this point.
You'll just have to deal with not getting names named for this at this
time....anymore than you're going to find how the AT Bruckner 7th got
out.
You oversimplify the matter of source material when you make a
comparison to film negatives and masters. Just as there are plenty of
examples of film restoration that have drawn upon materials in private
collections (missing stereo soundtracks junked by the studios, taken
from mag tracks on release prints in the hands of private collectors
or archives), not to mention the vast body of silent film, only a
small percentage of which is properly preserved by the actual studios.
With 78 era material, you are absolutely in error if you imagine that
all "authorized" transfers are derived entirely from original master
material, whether it be stampers, metal parts, etc.) Even when these
materials are not missing, they may quite often be in worse shape
(corrosion on metal parts, or warping) than a commercial pressing.
And, of course, MOST 78 era recordings are "direct-to-disc" and
reflect what was originally cut to disc without sonic processing, so,
unless they are dubbings (assuming an undubbed original master can
even be had), or like Am. Columbia in the 40s, dubbings from masters,
a commercial pressing is VERY often what any remastering engineer
uses, whether he is independent or employed by the label which "owns"
the recordings. The point being that an independent engineer is using
the exact same methods and tools for transfers. I never said that it
mattered more who the engineer was than what source material is used,
but it's for sure that some absolutely horrible work has been done "in
house" by labels (EMI France has a terrible track record with 78
transfers, for example) where the work of a skillful independent
engineer is far preferable.
I've tried to reply to you without resorting to facile comparisons and
demands for names and addresses that you seem to favor. You can
accept this or not, but I must say, you don't seem very well informed
about this business you are making pronouncements about. If you don't
agree with me, fair enough, but there are a number of professionals in
this field who could clarify their working methods to you, but not if
you bully and bite their heads off as you have been doing.
Neal
Soundfield
Naxos claims that their new transfer of the Toscanini Otello is taken
from 16-inch lacquers. For you and others, that's clear enough an
explanation. For me, it is not.
Whose lacquers? Are they inside-source NBCs? And who would,
mysteriously, have a COMPLETE set of those lacquers plus the THREE
rehearsal dates from which Toscanini took material to insert into the
broadcasts, other than the New York Public Library?
I have asked this question repeatedly, and no one has provided me with
an answer. I explained why I think this explanation is bogus --
because Toscanini transcriptions do not grow on trees, and for ONE
collector to just mysteriously own EVERY LAST SCRAP of those dates and
knows exactly what Toscanini wanted despite not having access to the
notes of Toscanini's requests in 1953 for the first LP release --
again, no one has an explanation other than saying, Ward Marston is an
honest and ethical guy, and if he says it's so, it's so.
That's my argument in a nutshell, and neither you nor anyone else has
provided me with an answer, especially when I point out that the ONLY
ATTRIBUTED SOURCES for that set of performances and rehearsals was in
the BMG/RCA set of the early 1990s.
As for sources to commercial 78s, I know exactly the full dimensions
of your arguments, which is why I campaigned AGAINST the transfers
done by Andreas Meyer for BMG/RCA reissues of Toscanini's Philadelphia
recordings -- because the entire set of test pressings and metal parts
(one of which was exhibited by Seth Winner in his NYPL Toscanini
anniversary exhibit last year) of the Toscanini Legacy Collection
wasn't even tapped.
dd
On Jan 29, 5:51 pm, vhorowitz <vladhorow...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [...]