Liszt Transcendental Etudes - whose is best - Jerome Rose?
fan
Whose is the best, Cziffra? Which ones did Horowitz record?
David Wake
> How good is Jerome Rose's set of the Liszt Transcental Etudes?
>
> Whose is the best, Cziffra? Which ones did Horowitz record?
Lazar Berman's stereo set is pretty good.
David
Dan Koren
news:rve0i0589ul930qal...@4ax.com...
>
> How good is Jerome Rose's set of
> the Liszt Transcental Etudes?
As bad as you can imagine -- or worse.
Competes for worst of the lot against
Russell Sherman and Janina Fialkowska.
> Whose is the best, Cziffra?
Among the complete sets, the top two
recommendations would be Berman and
Ovchinnikov. Cziffra's complete set
is uneven, however the individual
etudes recorded by Hungaroton in
the '50s before he fled to the
West are amazing.
> Which ones did Horowitz record?
None. He did not have the technique
to perform the Transcendentals, and
neither do most of the pianists who
have attempted or recorded them.
dk
Peter Schenkman
>
> Whose is the best, Cziffra? Which ones did Horowitz record?
Cziffra's complete set I find something of a let down. Some of the
individual etudes recorded at other times I far prefer. Horowitz
recorded none of them, Rose is a waste of time. My vote for a complete
set would go to the first set Berman recorded in the late 1950's
(available in the first volume of BMG's "Russian Piano School). His
remake done in 1963 is also quite good. Some of those that Richter
recorded are quite hair raising but he never got around to doing the
whole set, eight is as high as it gets.
Peter Schenkman
Tom Deacon
35b39934.04081...@posting.google.com, "Peter Schenkman"
<peter_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I don't quarrel with any of your suggestions, but there are many versions of
these pieces I would add to your list.
Certainly Arrau's recording is outstanding from every standpoint, and
amazing for a man in his seventies. It is not the "athletic" statement of a
young Berman, rather more poetic in character. But still magnificent. There
are some who think it may be his greatest achievement, along with the Liszt
Sonata, that is.
And I have a fondness for Ashkenazy's four or five excerpts from the set. I
released it in the GPE volume devoted to his playing.
Berezowsky is perhaps the finest modern interpreter of the entire work,
however, and available at low cost on Teldec, I think. There is some truly
amazing playing there. He plays the entire set frequently in public,
incidentally; this is not a "for records only" interpretation.
Ovchinnikov(sp.?) on a long deleted EMI CD was also very dashing in this
music. What, one might ask, has become of this pianist?
TD
Miguel Montfort
> How good is Jerome Rose's set of the Liszt Transcental Etudes?
As Dan and Peter said - forget about it.
> Whose is the best, Cziffra? Which ones did Horowitz record?
Try the amazing Sergio Fiorentino on Concert Artist CACD-9201-2.
Easily the best set around (recorded in 1955 & 1966).
Miguel Montfort
Miguel Montfort
[snip]
> Ovchinnikov(sp.?) on a long deleted EMI CD was also very dashing in
> this music. What, one might ask, has become of this pianist?
The CD seems to be still available from the usual french sources:
EMI Music France 5 72783 2 »Liszt: Études de virtuosité« (2CDs)
(EMI then spelled 'Ovchinikov'). Ovchinnikov's (EMI spells his name with
two 'n's now) Rachmaninov Études-tableaux have just been
reissued within the EMI Encore collection - EMI 5 85815 2.
He seems to be still in business:
http://www.schmidtart.com/artists/ovchinnikov/bio_ovchinnikov.html
A year or two ago Chandos announced the Reger PC with Ovchinikov
(Polyansky conducting)...
Miguel Montfort
graham
"Tom Deacon" <deac...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:BD46258B.769C%deac...@nospam-yahoo.com...
Teldec "Elatus" 2564-60125-2
Excellent. However, I hope they re-issue the later Berman recording.
Graham
Graham
Aron Edidin
Is it available on CD?
Yours,
Aron
>
> David
Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:aYednboEQ_-...@comcast.com:
Japanese (sigh!) Melodiya VDC-1132.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
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Van Eyes
news:cb3Uc.121853$J06.3778@pd7tw2no
>
> "Tom Deacon" <deac...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:BD46258B.769C%deac...@nospam-yahoo.com...
> > On 8/16/04 7:46 AM, in article
> > 35b39934.04081...@posting.google.com, "Peter Schenkman"
> > <peter_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Cziffra's complete set I find something of a let down.
> > Berezowsky is perhaps the finest modern interpreter of the entire work,
> > however, and available at low cost on Teldec, I think.
>
> Teldec "Elatus" 2564-60125-2
>
> Excellent....
Agree with all the above.
Regards
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Henk van Tuijl
"Miguel Montfort" <op...@web.de> schreef in bericht
news:cfqdaa$2fd$02$1...@news.t-online.com...
Fiorentino's set is a good although
sometimes disappointing set.
I did like Gekic' set - an almost
unknown pianist.
Henk
graham
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95474DA56C1...@207.217.125.202...
> Aron Edidin <edi...@ncf.edu> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in news:aYednboEQ_-...@comcast.com:
>
> > David Wake wrote:
> >> fan <f...@fan.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> How good is Jerome Rose's set of the Liszt Transcental Etudes?
> >>>
> >>> Whose is the best, Cziffra? Which ones did Horowitz record?
> >>
> >> Lazar Berman's stereo set is pretty good.
> >
> > Is it available on CD?
>
> Japanese (sigh!) Melodiya VDC-1132.
Is this the set that EMI issued in C1976?
Graham
Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:aI4Uc.121948$J06.117540@pd7tw2no:
I think of it as the set that Melodiya-Columbia issued around that time.
Todd Schurk
Claudio Arrau.
arri bachrach
> > the Liszt Transcental Etudes?
>
>
> As bad as you can imagine -- or worse.
>
> Competes for worst of the lot against
> Russell Sherman and Janina Fialkowska.
>
>
> > Whose is the best, Cziffra?
>
>
> Among the complete sets, the top two
> recommendations would be Berman and
> Ovchinnikov. Cziffra's complete set
> is uneven, however the individual
> etudes recorded by Hungaroton in
> the '50s before he fled to the
> West are amazing.
>
>
> > Which ones did Horowitz record?
>
>
> None. He did not have the technique
> to perform the Transcendentals, and
> neither do most of the pianists who
> have attempted or recorded them.
>
>
>
> dk
speaking of technique, did Sanchez record any of the etudes:-))
AB
MarkZimmerman
>
>Is it available on CD?
Yup. Gottit up on my CD shelf.
Best,
Mark Allen Zimmerman * Chicago
Craigmaile Macgregor
>
> Whose is the best, Cziffra? Which ones did Horowitz record?
Love the Cziffra EMI mono set, from the tear-away improvisatory 1st to the
bleak and despairing last, VIA that amazing octave trill in the reprise of
Mazeppa! For me, he seems best where Lizst is best. For me -
1,2,4,5,9,10,12.
Any punters for Gunnar Johansen on his own Artist Direct label. I loved it -
granatic, heroic and often beautiful ,IMHO.
Craigmaile
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Tom Deacon
904130a9.0408...@posting.google.com, "arri bachrach"
<abac...@att.net> wrote:
VERY naughty, Arri.
You're just baiting Koren.
The answer, of course, is no. But he could get through Iberia, which is no
small feat. If only he had been able to do it better.
TD
Dan Koren
news:5c7b5e29.04081...@posting.google.com...
You gotta be kidding.
Very slow, belabored and heavy handed. If
there ever was *one* recording that proves
beyond a shade of a doubt that Arrau was an
absolute moron unfit to play the piano, this
is it. Even 1st year conservatory students
can do better.
dk
Dan Koren
"Henk van Tuijl" <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:4120d336$0$49711$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
Way too fussy and mannered.
dk
M. Bartnik
"fan" <f...@fan.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:rve0i0589ul930qal...@4ax.com...
> How good is Jerome Rose's set of the Liszt Transcental Etudes?
>
> Whose is the best, Cziffra? Which ones did Horowitz record?
My favorites are Berman (both sets), some Ashkenazy ones (on the
Great-Pianists-set), Cziffra (EMI) and Berezovsky. The latter has - I don't
think that was mentioned before - not only recorded on CD (Teldec), but also
on DVD (Naive) which is an even better version. He does indeed play the
whole set in concert quite often, it sometimes being just half of the
recital, actually.
Miguel mentioned Fiorentino's Transcendentals, which I liked very much as
well; and the transfer sounds excellent for its age. I may add Joyce Hatto's
set, done some years ago and which totally belies her age - awesome
technique and a musicality to match.
M.B.
Alain Dagher
If ever there was an opinion proving that you're unfit to teach even 1st
year conservatory students this is it. Arrau's recording may be slow,
but it isn't belaboured. As I've said before, listening to his
chasse-neige one feels the snow on one's lips.
ad
Sam
One is the slowest available and the other the fastest, but I enjoy
both. (Now if anything I've ever posted was flame bait, I've
certainly topped it with this one.)
Henk van Tuijl
"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:4120fbe8$1...@news.meer.net...
Compared with the two Bermans and
Ovchinnikov it is. I don't seem
to have problems with it. During
a blind test I once did, Gekic'
interpretation was one of the more
interesting - to my own surprise.
Henk
Peter Schenkman
And I would agree with your additions, completeness versus brevity,
shades of the closing scene from Capriccio and it's words or music
choice.
Arrau is outstanding taken on it's own merits but I wish he had
recorded the cycle in the 1950's, that would have been something,
still a remarkable achievement by any standard. Just about everything
that Ashkenazy did at that point in time (early 1970's I believe) was
outstanding the seven etudes you released in The Great Pianists Series
are no exception. Bolet is far better in his recording for EnSayo
(ENY-CD-9711) from 1970 then the remake for London (414 601-2) from
1986, unlike Arrau he wasn't able to adapt his concept to accommodate
diminished pianistic resources or put another way, find new meanings.
Everything that I've heard about Fiorentino's rendition has been
positive, although I have yet to hear it. Berezowsky, also unheard by
me seems to be unavailable at present. Leaving Ovchinikov (the
spelling used on his discs) who is quite stunning in the Liszt Etudes
(CDC 7 49821 2) as well as the other EMI issues of his that I know.
Rachmaninov's Etudes-tableaux (CDC 7 54077 2) and the complete
Prokofiev Sonatas on three discs with assorted shorter works (5 55127
2). I know nothing about him other then what little appears in the
program notes nor do I have a clue as to what he's done since the late
1980's-the early 1990's when his EMI CD's were made. The level of
playing shown on those discs was outstanding enough to merit a major
career assuming he could cope with the classical repertoire.
Peter Schenkman
Bob Lombard
wrote:
>> Claudio Arrau.
>
>
>You gotta be kidding.
>
>Very slow, belabored and heavy handed. If
>there ever was *one* recording that proves
>beyond a shade of a doubt that Arrau was an
>absolute moron unfit to play the piano, this
>is it. Even 1st year conservatory students
>can do better.
>
>
>
>dk
>
Slow doesn't equal belabored. Arrau's tendency to milk the music is
very similar to the practice of your hero Richter. Deliberate
interpretive choices, not deficient technique.
bl
Miguel Montfort
[snip]
> Miguel mentioned Fiorentino's Transcendentals, which I liked very
> much as well; and the transfer sounds excellent for its age. I may
> add Joyce Hatto's set, done some years ago and which totally belies
> her age - awesome technique and a musicality to match.
I should have mentioned Madame Hatto, too! Her Liszt Études
(including the five 'de concert' & the Paganinis) are simply
gorgeous. Do yourself a favour and listen to her recordings ;-)
Concert Artist CACD 9084-2 (Transcendentals)
Concert Artist CACD 9132-2 (Concert Studies & Paganinis)
Miguel Montfort
Todd Schurk
Your response proves better than I ever could who the "moron" is. If
you are a piano teacher I pity your students,and even more-those whom
will have the misfortune of hearing them.Pity indeed.
Peter Lemken
> Claudio Arrau.
You meant that as an addendum for the worst recordings of the pieces, right?
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in
a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly
used up, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming, 'Wow, what a ride!'
Peter Lemken
> [...] Some of the individual etudes recorded at other times I far prefer.
> Horowitz recorded none of them
The Paganini-Etudes were published as "Etudes D'Execution Transcendante
D'Apres Paganini" and Horowitz recorded two of them.
Tom Deacon
<dank...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Claudio Arrau.
>
>
> You gotta be kidding.
>
> Very slow, belabored and heavy handed. If
> there ever was *one* recording that proves
> beyond a shade of a doubt that Arrau was an
> absolute moron unfit to play the piano, this
> is it. Even 1st year conservatory students
> can do better.
Like a trout.
Such a predictable response.
Quite wrong, of course.
TD
MrT
for the sake of great piano-playing).
Best,
m r t
arri bachrach
> > Whose is the best, Cziffra?
>
>
> Among the complete sets, the top two
> recommendations would be Berman and
> Ovchinnikov. Cziffra's complete set
> is uneven, however the individual
> etudes recorded by Hungaroton in
> the '50s before he fled to the
> West are amazing.
>
>
> > Which ones did Horowitz record?
>
>
> None. He did not have the technique
> to perform the Transcendentals, and
> neither do most of the pianists who
> have attempted or recorded them.
>
just did not want to bother to learn all of them but it is possible
you might just be right. No doubt that Cziffra at his peak did have a
more formidable piano mechanism, expecially his left hand, greater all
around facility. his scales were absolutely awesome
but don't forget, Heifetz never recorded all the Paganini caprices
though he did record a few arrangements with piano. He surely had the
technique.
AB
> dk
arri bachrach
>
> Lazar Berman's stereo set is pretty good.
>
I have both his stereo and mono. the mono is even better
AB
arri bachrach
arri bachrach
> >
> >
> >
> > You gotta be kidding.
> >
> > Very slow, belabored and heavy handed. If
> > there ever was *one* recording that proves
> > beyond a shade of a doubt that Arrau was an
> > absolute moron unfit to play the piano, this
> > is it. Even 1st year conservatory students
> > can do better.
> >
> >
>
> If ever there was an opinion proving that you're unfit to teach even 1st
> year conservatory students this is it. Arrau's recording may be slow,
> but it isn't belaboured. As I've said before, listening to his
> chasse-neige one feels the snow on one's lips.
>
> ad
not to "belabor" (sic) this issue, Arrau had no business recording the
TEs. ridiculous playing....
AB
arri bachrach
>
> VERY naughty, Arri.
>
> You're just baiting Koren.
I would mever waste my time doing that, though I am often tempted to
do that to you:-)))))
> The answer, of course, is no. But he could get through Iberia,
like you get through the Canadian winter... (which is no small
feat):-)
which is no
> small feat. If only he had been able to do it better.
Sanchez was a GREAT pianist. please listen to his Beethoven PC #4. it
just glows with beauty and character :-)
now why was he not included in the GPOC :-)))))))
AB
AB
> TD
Tom Deacon
904130a9.04081...@posting.google.com, "arri bachrach"
<abac...@att.net> wrote:
Perhaps even more ridiculous is the above comment, which betrays a level of
ignorance it is impossible to imagine.
TD
Marc Perman
"Alain Dagher" <al...@bic.mni.mcgill.ca> wrote in message
news:Sj7Uc.12644$aS....@charlie.risq.qc.ca...
>
> If ever there was an opinion proving that you're unfit to teach even 1st
> year conservatory students this is it. Arrau's recording may be slow,
> but it isn't belaboured. As I've said before, listening to his
> chasse-neige one feels the snow on one's lips.
As Montrealers will be able to in just a couple of months!
Marc Perman
LaVirtuosa
Berman was ok in Wilde Jagd but not the others. And even in that one, I've
outgrown him. He's "archival" as far as I'm concerned.
One pianist I would have liked to have heard play these [and whom you'd least
expect!!!] is Wilhelm Backhaus. Another one who would have played them well is
Rachmaninoff. Backhaus and Rachmaninoff were honest interpreters, and ones
who could express emotion without artifice, and be intensely moving within a
finely-graded dynamic range. Backhaus didn't need extreme volume contrast to
hypnotize the listener; in fact, the lack of contrast is what draws you in, but
only because there was great feeling beneath his playing. Rachmaninoff knew
how much to amplify the sound in which place or places to create the best
effect. These etudes are full of refinement and sophistication. It doesn't do
any good to play them like exercises or to display mere strength in the loud
parts. The loud parts should be biomorphic, not overtly architectural.
**************Val
Andy Evans
He also made a very good Prokofiev sonata set. Not Richter, but who is?
=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.
LaVirtuosa
to take this music.
*********Val
A. Turner
opinions? Saw it many times at my local Borders. Tempted, but not
sure...
A.T.
"Miguel Montfort" <op...@web.de> wrote in message news:<cfqege$f9i$05$1...@news.t-online.com>...
> Tom Deacon wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Ovchinnikov(sp.?) on a long deleted EMI CD was also very dashing in
> > this music. What, one might ask, has become of this pianist?
>
> The CD seems to be still available from the usual french sources:
> EMI Music France 5 72783 2 »Liszt: Études de virtuosité« (2CDs)
> (EMI then spelled 'Ovchinikov'). Ovchinnikov's (EMI spells his name with
> two 'n's now) Rachmaninov Études-tableaux have just been
> reissued within the EMI Encore collection - EMI 5 85815 2.
> He seems to be still in business:
> http://www.schmidtart.com/artists/ovchinnikov/bio_ovchinnikov.html
> A year or two ago Chandos announced the Reger PC with Ovchinikov
> (Polyansky conducting)...
>
> Miguel Montfort
Peter Schenkman
> Also, besides Baackhaus and Rachmaninoff, Annie Fischer would have known where
> to take this music.
>
> *********Val
Off in La La Land are we.
*********Peter Schenkman
Tom Deacon
"LaVirtuosa" <lavir...@aol.com> wrote:
> Also, besides Baackhaus and Rachmaninoff, Annie Fischer would have known
> where
> to take this music.
Perhaps. But alas the flesh was weak.
TD
Dan Koren
news:35b39934.0408...@posting.google.com...
>
> lavir...@aol.com (LaVirtuosa) wrote in message
news:<20040817095101...@mb-m15.aol.com>...
> >
> > Also, besides Baackhaus and Rachmaninoff,
> > Annie Fischer would have known where to
> > take this music.
>
>
Didn't you notice Val tends
to judge pianists by their
leather pants?
dk
Dan Koren
Did you check it yourself?
dk
Tom Deacon
<dank...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Also, besides Baackhaus and Rachmaninoff,
>>> Annie Fischer would have known where to
>>> take this music.
>>
>> Off in La La Land are we.
>>
>
>
> Didn't you notice Val tends
> to judge pianists by their
> leather pants?
Why knock it?
It was the only way you ever got into her pantheon!
TD
Tom Deacon
Dan Koren
It is actually pantseon, dummy!
dk
EG
Nah, he was just listening to it while fetching pizza from the freezer...
EG
Nah, he was just listening to it while fetching pizza from the freezer...
EG
Nah, he was listening to it while fetching pizza from the freezer...
LaVirtuosa
>where
>> to take this music.
>>
>> *********Val
>
>Off in La La Land are we.
>
>*********Peter Schenkman
Well, they arent that hard technically, but they need someone with personality.
Ricordanza takes a little practice once in awhile [where the arpeggios get
softer, controlling how that's done], but the other ones are basically more
musical experimantation than exercises; if you have the power when it's needed
[not that big of a thing, really] and let yourself get used to Liszt's keyboard
formulas and also know where you can substitute, and already have trained
yourself for keyboard mechanics, they arent' that forbidding.. So the limiting
factor is really how much imagination the pianist has, not just fingers. I
didn't mention Arrau, because he's so deep and he's often misunderstood. I'm
trying to think who else recorded them all. Ginzburg must certainly have
played them.
*****************Val
Dan Koren
news:Sj7Uc.12644$aS....@charlie.risq.qc.ca...
>
> >>
> >> Claudio Arrau.
> >
> > You gotta be kidding.
> >
> > Very slow, belabored and heavy handed. If
> > there ever was *one* recording that proves
> > beyond a shade of a doubt that Arrau was an
> > absolute moron unfit to play the piano, this
> > is it. Even 1st year conservatory students
> > can do better.
> >
>
> you're unfit to teach even 1st year
> conservatory students this is it.
I never claimed, hinted or suggested that I
was fit to teach anything. Where did you get
such an idea?
> Arrau's recording may be slow, but it isn't
> belaboured.
You obviously don't know enough about piano
playing to be able to tell.
> As I've said before, listening to his
> chasse-neige one feels the snow on one's lips.
Listen to Ovchinnikov and you will feel the
snow in your face. Then listen to Cziffra
and you will probably freeze.
dk
Dan Koren
news:20040818023706...@mb-m23.aol.com...
>
> Well, they arent that hard technically,
> but they need someone with personality.
Please send us your recordings of
Mazeppa and Feux Follets so we can
put your statements to test.
dk
Tom Deacon
<dank...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Listen to Ovchinnikov and you will feel the
> snow in your face. Then listen to Cziffra
> and you will probably freeze.
The Cziffra performance of Chasse-neige is one of his greatest performances
of anything.
TD
Peter Schenkman
>>
Most of my pianist friends who really know their way around the
instrument would take exception to your dismissal of the technical
problems raised. Maybe you should post your own version to show us the
correct path.
*****************Peter Schenkman
M. Bartnik
news:20040818023706...@mb-m23.aol.com...
>
> Well, they arent that hard technically
Some people apparently love to disqualify themselves from any serious
discussion with their ridiculous comments. If the Transcendentals aren't
hard, what is? All pianists I know - and some of them have played these
Etudes themselves - would love in the face of anyone stating such absurd
things. I have the distinct impression this comment (and others in the same
vein) have the only purpose to impress anyone innocent and ignorant enough
in pianistic matters to believe such wild ravings.
M.B.
Dan Koren
"M. Bartnik" <marcel_...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:cg03so$mfj$1...@ulysses.news.tiscali.de...
Don't be too harsh on Val.
She must have missed her
Prozac.
dk
Christian Johansson
[...]
> > > Which ones did Horowitz record?
> >
> >
> > None. He did not have the technique
> > to perform the Transcendentals, and
> > neither do most of the pianists who
> > have attempted or recorded them.
> >
> I am not sure if you are right or wrong about Horowitz. I suspect he
> just did not want to bother to learn all of them but it is possible
> you might just be right.
No this is just nonsense of course. Horowitz played both Mazeppa and
Feux Follets and tossed them both off like nothing according to the
dozen or so reviews I've read of concerts with them on the program.
His reason for not including more from the set in his repertoire was
because of their, in his opinion, musical shortcomings. "You have to
be very selective with Leeezt". He also played four of the Paganini
Etudes, of which two were recorded and show just how much problems he
had with Liszt's pianowriting.
More facts and less home made conclusions next time Koren!
/Christian Johansson
Ssg217
>> >
>> >
>> > None. He did not have the technique
>> > to perform the Transcendentals, and
>> > neither do most of the pianists who
>> > have attempted or recorded them.
>> >
>> I am not sure if you are right or wrong about Horowitz. I suspect he
>> just did not want to bother to learn all of them but it is possible
>> you might just be right.
>
>No this is just nonsense of course. Horowitz played both Mazeppa and
>Feux Follets and tossed them both off like nothing according to the
>dozen or so reviews I've read of concerts with them on the program.
>His reason for not including more from the set in his repertoire was
>because of their, in his opinion, musical shortcomings. "You have to
>be very selective with Leeezt". He also played four of the Paganini
>Etudes, of which two were recorded and show just how much problems he
>had with Liszt's pianowriting.
>
>More facts and less home made conclusions next time Koren!
Ouch! Dan, I feel for you.
regards,
SG ( :
Dan Koren
news:20040818140200...@mb-m01.aol.com...
Not at all.
I stand by what I said.
First, Volodya did not record any of the TE's, even though as
CJ pointed out he did perform a few of them live. Second, it
is a lot easier for to awe a live audience with a theatrical
good performance than to convince a critical listener with
deep knowledge of the score and the instrument, and who
listens repeatedly with score in hand.
Having heard most (if not all) of Volodya's recordings, as
well as Richter's, Cziffra's and Berman's, I do not doubt
for a moment that his *OVERALL* technique was not up to
those of the other pianists I mentioned. BTW Volodya
himself was quoted as saying "leave that to Richter"
when one of his producers suggested Scriabin's etude
in ninths for a program. Horowitz was a very astute
artist and knew how to showcase his technique in the
best possible light -- which clearly involved other
elements, such as touch, color, articulation, etc...
At the same time, it should be very obvious to the
listener with a trained ear and intimate knowledge
of the instrument and the repertoire that Horowitz
did not even come close to Lhevinne or Cziffra, and
sometimes Richter and Berman for sheer technical
wizardry.
dk
Steve Emerson
peter_s...@hotmail.com (Peter Schenkman) wrote:
What does Annie Fischer or her Liszt have to do with La La Land?
SE.
Steve Emerson
wrote:
> Among the complete sets, the top two
> recommendations would be Berman and
> Ovchinnikov.
Which Berman set do you prefer?
SE.
Tom Deacon
33cb079f.04081...@posting.google.com, "Christian Johansson"
<chrisjo...@yahoo.se> wrote:
> abac...@att.net (arri bachrach) wrote in message
> news:<904130a9.0408...@posting.google.com>...
>
> [...]
>
>>>> Which ones did Horowitz record?
>>>
>>>
>>> None. He did not have the technique
>>> to perform the Transcendentals, and
>>> neither do most of the pianists who
>>> have attempted or recorded them.
>>>
>> I am not sure if you are right or wrong about Horowitz. I suspect he
>> just did not want to bother to learn all of them but it is possible
>> you might just be right.
>
> No this is just nonsense of course. Horowitz played both Mazeppa and
> Feux Follets and tossed them both off like nothing
Up to this point one might have thought you had actually heard him play
them.
>according to the dozen or so reviews I've read of concerts with them on the
program.
But now all we have is third hand reviews. Knowing most reviewers of
concerts to be almost entirely ignorant of the repertoire, let alone the
Liszt Transcendental Etudes, I think we cannot accept this statement as
being even close to ressembling the truth of the matter.
> His reason for not including more from the set in his repertoire was
> because of their, in his opinion, musical shortcomings. "You have to
> be very selective with Leeezt".
What a dumb statement. Typical Horowitz. He liked the pieces which showed
off his technical wizzardry but which were not as hard to play as they
looked.
The TEs are hard work right through.
>He also played four of the Paganini Etudes, of which two were recorded and show
just how much problems he had with Liszt's pianowriting.
The Paganini Etudes do not present anywhere near the difficulty of the TEs.
Question: do you play the piano yourself? Sometimes you make statements
which betray and extraordinary innocence where piano-playing is concerned.
> More facts and less home made conclusions next time Koren!
Koren has many more facts about piano-playing at his disposal than you do,
Mr. Johannson. My recommendation is that you stick to discographies and
definitely, but definitely, do not give up your day job.
TD
Tom Deacon
<dank...@yahoo.com> wrote:
It would seem to me somewhat self-serving to imagine that everyone's world
is the same as your own, Koren. For you, meds are a way of life. For Val,
she has her piano and doesn't need meds.
TD
Dan Koren
Tom, do you really think I know
anything about anything? The
apocalypse must be really
getting close....
dk
Dan Koren
I'm afraid you're wrong. I have not taken any pills in
25+ years. I swim 2 miles and jog 5 miles every day.
I bike 25 to 100 miles most weekends, weather
permitting (the loop around Tahoe is about 76
miles). And I ski 50 days or more every season
when there is enough snow at Tahoe.
You must be looking in the mirror.
dk
Dan Koren
news:emersn-436014....@typhoon.sonic.net...
That's where she spent most
of her career.
dk
Tom Deacon
<dank...@yahoo.com> wrote:
You have bad taste, Koren, but you have more knowledge of the piano than one
might at first suspect.
TD
Marcus Maroney
> Well, they arent that hard technically, but they need someone with
> personality.
Even if that were so, A. Fischer isn't exactly overflowing with either.
Marcus Maroney
Marcus Maroney
> Well, they arent that hard technically, but they need someone with
> personality.
Even if that were so, A. Fischer isn't exactly overflowing with either.
Marcus Maroney
Marcus Maroney
> Well, they arent that hard technically, but they need someone with
> personality.
Even if that were so, A. Fischer isn't exactly overflowing with either.
Marcus Maroney
Marcus Maroney
> Well, they arent that hard technically, but they need someone with
> personality.
Even if that were so, A. Fischer isn't exactly overflowing with either.
Marcus Maroney
Marcus Maroney
> Well, they arent that hard technically, but they need someone with
> personality.
Even if that were so, A. Fischer isn't exactly overflowing with either.
Marcus Maroney
Ssg217
Mr. Maroney, are you on a Glass diet?
Mr. Maroney, are you on a Glass diet?
Mr. Maroney, are you on a Glass diet?
Mr. Maroney, are you on a Glass diet?
Mr. Maroney, are you on a Glass diet?
regards,
SG
( :
M. Bartnik
news:BD4921E7.797C%deac...@nospam-yahoo.com...
>
> The TEs are hard work right through.
>
That said - which doesn't seem to be as obvious as it should be to some -
there are degrees in difficulty. Mazeppa and Feux follets are certainly
among the most fiendish of the set, but there are some others that are a
little less so.
>
> The Paganini Etudes do not present anywhere near the difficulty of the
TEs.
As a whole set this is certainly true. Yet there are also those among the
Paganinis that put the pianist as much to a test as do the Transcendentals.
I'm thinking of the Campanella, of course, but also of the second Etude
(Octaves, is it?). They're just as difficult as some of the Transcendentals.
> Question: do you play the piano yourself? Sometimes you make statements
> which betray and extraordinary innocence where piano-playing is concerned.
Well as far as I'm concerned I guess you know the answer...;-)
M.B.
John Gavin
> >
> >
> > Among the complete sets, the top two
> > recommendations would be Berman and
> > is uneven, however the individual
> > etudes recorded by Hungaroton in
> > the '50s before he fled to the
> > West are amazing.
> >
> >
> > > Which ones did Horowitz record?
> >
> >
> > None. He did not have the technique
> > to perform the Transcendentals, and
> > neither do most of the pianists who
> > have attempted or recorded them.
> >
> I am not sure if you are right or wrong about Horowitz. I suspect he
> just did not want to bother to learn all of them but it is possible
> more formidable piano mechanism, expecially his left hand, greater all
> around facility. his scales were absolutely awesome
>
> but don't forget, Heifetz never recorded all the Paganini caprices
> though he did record a few arrangements with piano. He surely had the
> technique.
>
> AB
>
>
>True, but Heifetz did perform quite a few of the original Caprices in
concert. I've heard from those who were present that they were
hair-raising. Why the heck didn't he record them? Then again, why
didn't Heifetz record the Ravel Sonata, or at least one of the
Medtners, or Enescus, or.........:)
Dan Koren
Help! My breathing
stopped for a few
moments....
dk
Dan Koren
> "Tom Deacon" <deac...@nospam-yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:BD4921E7.797C%deac...@nospam-yahoo.com...
> >
> > The TEs are hard work right through.
> >
>
> That said - which doesn't seem to be as obvious as it should be to some -
> there are degrees in difficulty. Mazeppa and Feux follets are certainly
> among the most fiendish of the set, but there are some others that are a
> little less so.
>
Sure. No. 10 is not quite as hard as
it sounds, and one could even argue
that no. 9, and even no. 11 are
relatively easy, especially the
latter for pianists with large
hands. Nos. 8 and 12 are harder
than they sound. No. 7 requires
endurance more than technique
proper, and almost any banger
can handle it.
So what? The real difficulty is
making them sound like music,
assuming one is capable of
playing all the notes.
And for an exercise in sheer
comedy, I do recommend that
everyone should listen at
least once to Russell Sherman,
who manages to out-Helfgott
Helfgott.
dk
LaVirtuosa
than anything else. I think Liszt should have called them "Transcendental
Inventions" instead of "Etudes".
BTW, is it really true that Smetana could play the left-hand part in Chopin's
Revolutionary Etude in octaves?
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/9981/smetana.html
************Val
>Subject: Re: Liszt Transcendental Etudes - whose is best - Jerome Rose?
>From: Wayne Reimer wr...@pacbell.net
>Date: 8/17/04 12:29 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <MPG.1b8b37b3d...@news.sf.sbcglobal.net>
>
>> In article <cfqege$f9i$05$1...@news.t-online.com>, op...@web.de says...
>> Tom Deacon wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> > Ovchinnikov(sp.?) on a long deleted EMI CD was also very dashing in
>> > this music. What, one might ask, has become of this pianist?
>>
>> The CD seems to be still available from the usual french sources:
>> EMI Music France 5 72783 2 »Liszt: Études de virtuosité« (2CDs)
>> (EMI then spelled 'Ovchinikov'). Ovchinnikov's (EMI spells his name with
>> two 'n's now) Rachmaninov Études-tableaux have just been
>> reissued within the EMI Encore collection - EMI 5 85815 2.
>> He seems to be still in business:
>> http://www.schmidtart.com/artists/ovchinnikov/bio_ovchinnikov.html
>> A year or two ago Chandos announced the Reger PC with Ovchinikov
>> (Polyansky conducting)...
>>
>> Miguel Montfort
>>
>I once found a really great Rach Corelli Variations of his, plus some other
>stuff, on a Russian website in mp3 form. I don't know the source of the
>performance - it appeared to be from some release never seen on these shores
>(i.e., USA) - and the sound was not good, but the performance itself was
>fabulous.
>
>wr
LaVirtuosa
M. Bartnik
"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:4124104f$1...@news.meer.net...
>
> The real difficulty is
> making them sound like music,
> assuming one is capable of
> playing all the notes.
Of course. But IIRC we were talking about the technical aspect of these
works, not the musical one.
M.B.
Holden4th
it. It is very hard. I've got the hand spread to cover the chords but I
don't have the technique required to make the right notes sound through
these chords and for that matter how many actually do? I struggled with
this for ages and ended up very frustrated with the sound I produced.
Marcus Maroney
John Gavin
> On 8/16/04 7:46 AM, in article
> 35b39934.04081...@posting.google.com, "Peter Schenkman"
> <peter_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > fan <f...@fan.com> wrote in message
> > news:<rve0i0589ul930qal...@4ax.com>...
> >> How good is Jerome Rose's set of the Liszt Transcental Etudes?
> >>
> >> Whose is the best, Cziffra? Which ones did Horowitz record?
> >
> >
> > Cziffra's complete set I find something of a let down. Some of the
> > individual etudes recorded at other times I far prefer. Horowitz
> > recorded none of them, Rose is a waste of time. My vote for a complete
> > set would go to the first set Berman recorded in the late 1950's
> > (available in the first volume of BMG's "Russian Piano School). His
> > remake done in 1963 is also quite good. Some of those that Richter
> > recorded are quite hair raising but he never got around to doing the
> > whole set, eight is as high as it gets.
>
> I don't quarrel with any of your suggestions, but there are many versions of
> these pieces I would add to your list.
>
> Certainly Arrau's recording is outstanding from every standpoint, and
> amazing for a man in his seventies. It is not the "athletic" statement of a
> young Berman, rather more poetic in character. But still magnificent. There
> are some who think it may be his greatest achievement, along with the Liszt
> Sonata, that is.
>
> And I have a fondness for Ashkenazy's four or five excerpts from the set. I
> released it in the GPE volume devoted to his playing.
>
> Berezowsky is perhaps the finest modern interpreter of the entire work,
> however, and available at low cost on Teldec, I think. There is some truly
> amazing playing there. He plays the entire set frequently in public,
> incidentally; this is not a "for records only" interpretation.
>
> Ovchinnikov(sp.?) on a long deleted EMI CD was also very dashing in this
> music. What, one might ask, has become of this pianist?
>
I think that comparing Berezowsky and Ovchinikov back to back is very
instructive. Both pianists have the chops, but at least on records
Berezowsky doesn't have much of a sound - it's rather thin and
shallow. Real pianistic brilliance is a combination of sound and
technique - both of which Ovchinikov has. So I vote for Ovchinikov
over Berezowsky, (though I admit I haven't yet heard Val).
Steve Emerson
Tom Deacon <deac...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ovchinnikov(sp.?) on a long deleted EMI CD was also very dashing in this
> music.
Ovchinikov's marvelous set can actually be had on an EMI two-fer that's been
in print for some time.
SE.
Tom Deacon
77a67936.04081...@posting.google.com, "John Gavin"
<dag...@comcast.net> wrote:
I would very much like to see the DVD of the complete Liszt TEs which
Berezowsky has made at La Roque d'Antheron in the South of France.
TD
Tom Deacon
emersn-817326....@typhoon.sonic.net, "Steve Emerson"
<eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote:
Good news.
I only have the original and had not noticed a reissue in a twofer.
DoubleForte, perhaps. This series is not completely or widely available, it
would appear. Very frustrating.
TD
Steve Molino
Details? I have not seen it at any of my usual sources and have been
curious about it for a long time.
Sam
Steve Molino
news:shn9i0p5pve5dpv2i...@4ax.com...
> >
> http://www.towerrecords.com/product.aspx?pfid=1465427
Thanks! I never shop at Tower online so didn't even bother to look there!
I've ordered it and will be curious to compare to the others I have
(Cziffra, Berezovsky, Berman).
Steve Emerson
"Steve Molino" <s_molin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
MDT has it as well. Arrau's are of interest too, btw; as others have noted. In
about half of them, he's hobbled by fading technique (presumably) and
resultingly unsatisfactory tempi, but the best of them are tremendous --
including Chasse Neige.
SE.
Tom Deacon
_K5Vc.29170$vc4.13...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net, "Steve Molino"
<s_molin...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Far more interesting here are the Paganini Etudes by Jeanne-Marie Darre.
They are the REAL find in this set, which I have had for a few years, I
think. Quite ignored the Ovchinnikov which I already owned in the first
release.
TD
Tom Deacon
emersn-30CFCB....@typhoon.sonic.net, "Steve Emerson"
<eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote:
What a curious notion. Hobbled, indeed! What you hear is what Arrau wanted
you to hear. There was almost nothing he couldn't achieve at the keyboard
even at the age of 70. Nor was his "technique" presumably fading.
TD
Steve Molino
Perhaps so, but I never "connected" with his recording of these works, and I
have tried on numerous occasions in my life.
Poisonous Pixie
"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4123...@news.meer.net...
> "Ssg217" <ssg...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040818140200...@mb-m01.aol.com...
> > >> > > Which ones did Horowitz record?
> > >> >
> > >> > to perform the Transcendentals, and
> > >> > neither do most of the pianists who
> > >> > have attempted or recorded them.
> > >> >
> > >> I am not sure if you are right or wrong about Horowitz. I suspect he
> > >> just did not want to bother to learn all of them but it is possible
> > >> you might just be right.
> > >
> > > No this is just nonsense of course. Horowitz played both Mazeppa and
> > > dozen or so reviews I've read of concerts with them on the program.
> > > because of their, in his opinion, musical shortcomings. "You have to
> > > Etudes, of which two were recorded and show just how much problems he
> > > had with Liszt's pianowriting.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> Not at all.
>
> I stand by what I said.
>
> First, Volodya did not record any of the TE's, even though as
> CJ pointed out he did perform a few of them live. Second, it
> is a lot easier for to awe a live audience with a theatrical
> good performance than to convince a critical listener with
> deep knowledge of the score and the instrument, and who
> listens repeatedly with score in hand.
>
> Having heard most (if not all) of Volodya's recordings, as
> well as Richter's, Cziffra's and Berman's, I do not doubt
> for a moment that his *OVERALL* technique was not up to
> those of the other pianists I mentioned. BTW Volodya
> himself was quoted as saying "leave that to Richter"
> when one of his producers suggested Scriabin's etude
> in ninths for a program. Horowitz was a very astute
> artist and knew how to showcase his technique in the
> best possible light -- which clearly involved other
> elements, such as touch, color, articulation, etc...
>
> At the same time, it should be very obvious to the
> listener with a trained ear and intimate knowledge
> of the instrument and the repertoire that Horowitz
> did not even come close to Lhevinne or Cziffra, and
> sometimes Richter and Berman for sheer technical
> wizardry.
>
> dk
You 'stand by what you said' (that Horowitz didn't record any of the
Transcendentals because he 'hadn't the technique'), but I am at a loss to
find your arguments for so doing.
Firstly, there is much repertoire that Horowitz, along with every other
pianist, did not record, & this is not evidence that they did not have the
technique to play it.
Your second point - "it is a lot easier for (sic) to awe a live audience
with a theatrical(sic) good performance than to convince a critical listener
with deep knowledge of the score and the instrument, and who listens
repeatedly with score in hand" - is presumably intended to address
Christian's reasonable claim that Horowitz COULD play (some of) the TS's
because he actually DID, & did so to great critical acclaim.
What you seem to be saying here is that, ok, perhaps Horowitz DID play at
least 2 transcendental studies, & perhaps his audiences 'thought' they were
fantastic performances, but that "a critical listener with deep knowledge of
the score and the instrument, and who listens repeatedly with score in hand'
would know that in fact he wasn't playing them, or wasn't playing them 'very
well' or 'properly'? In short, you're claiming that Horowitz, in his prime,
programmed & played at least two pieces of music to great critical acclaim,
but in fact he didn't have the technique to play them, and somehow or
other - by the use of 'showmanship' - he managed to 'con' his audience into
believing otherwise. After all, even your hypothetical 'critical listener'
has to 'listen repeatedly with the score (&, doubtless, stop-watch &
metronome!) in hand' in order to spot the 'faking' &, presumably, ensure
s/he isn't exposed to the risk of enjoying a Horowitz recital..
However, you also concede that "Horowitz was a very astute artist and knew
how to showcase his technique in the best possible light". Here's your
problem: if this is true, & he 'hadn't the technique' to play Mazeppa & Feux
Follets - why did he play them in public? I agree with you that Horowitz
knew what he could & couldn't play - he freely admitted this on many
occasions - which is why if, when in his prime, he played something in
public we can be quite sure he could play it adequately enough to give a
valid musical performance.
Given the above, the only reason I can see for you to 'stand by' your
original assertion is to see that it gets a decent burial!
Btw, I'm also curious which edition of the Transcendental Studies you're
referring to: for it to include a version of Paysage that is more difficult
that the E-Flat Paganini Study recorded by Horowitz, I assume it must be
pretty special - is there a Cziffra-Hamelin-Volodos edition, by any chance?
And on which particular planet is 'Harmonies du Soir' more difficult than
the Rach/3 - so carefully avoided by Richter (who also, unlike Horowitz,
avoided Mazeppa, of course) but swallowed whole by Horowitz?...
From your remarks about technique, unguarded listeners might assume that
Horowitz used 'extra-pianistic' means to 'awe' his audience in order to
produce a 'theatrical(ly) good performance', as though he habitually put on
a clown's costume & juggled oranges with his feet while playing or somesuch.
Yet it is well known that the opposite is the case, and that he was very
quiet at the piano - all he did was sit down & play it. What Horowitz seems
to have been able to to do was understand the piano he was playing, the hall
he was playing in, and the audience he was playing to, so well that he could
generate a rather unique form of excitement that many have enjoyed. And that
took some 'technique'.
One other thing I find puzzling in your remarks: if I understand you
correctly, you do not include "touch, color, articulation" (perhaps you'd
add 'pedalling'?) as components of piano technique? (You refer to these as
'other elements'). If this is so, it would explain your disdain for
Horowitz, since these were aspects of 'controlling the piano' to which
Horowitz devoted exceptional attention with outstanding results, compared
even to those other pianists your mention. You may disagree, but personally
I regard these as essential aspects of piano technique, which I would define
as 'the means to use the piano to provide maximum musical
impact'......(Rachmaninoff, more succintly, defined it as 'what, where & how
much')
Finally, you mention Lhevinne, & here again I am curious. He left very few
recordings - I have most most of them I think, 8 complete works plus an
incomplete Tchaik/1. Which, amongst this very limited evidence, justifies
your claim that "Horowitz did not even come close to Lhevinne"?....Listening
to Lhevinne's octaves, for instance, in Op25/10 & the Tchaik 1, then hearing
Horowitz in eg. Tchaik 1/Szell, I find your claim difficult to understand.
There seems nothing in Lhevinne's small legacy that outshine's any of the
great Horowitz recordings, although comparison's are difficult when not
comparing like-for-like. We can only do that on 2 occasions, I think - the
Tchaik/1 1st & 3rd movements, Schumann's Toccata, (ignoring Chopin Op25/10
for obvious reasons, even though the fragments Horowitz left of this contain
quite awesome 'music making'). In both of these works Lhevinne is
technically 'more cautious' than Horowitz where virtuosity is normally
displayed, and on neither occasion does Lhevinne evidence greater
'musicality', at least to my taste. Are you privy to some additional hoard
of Lhevinne recordings that are reserved only for that select breed of
'critical listeners' such as yourself, or are you pursuaded by written
critical reports that you disallow in the case of Horowitz?....
PP