Albert Coates

Richard Sauer

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Dec 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/13/96

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I own the Claremont/GSE CD GSE 78-50-26 of extended excerpts from a
Tristan (1926-1929??) led by Albert Coates. Melchior is Tristan, and
Frida Lieder is Isolde. This has to be heard to be believed. What
happened to Coates? Did he die a forgotten man?

R.Sauer

Ysbrand Van Der Werf

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Dec 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/13/96

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Richard Sauer (hots...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: I own the Claremont/GSE CD GSE 78-50-26 of extended excerpts from a

I know him only as a "bounder," which is how Elgar's wife referred to him
after the world premiere of Elgar's Cello Concerto: Elgar conducted this
piece as part of the same program on which Coates was conducting
Scriabin's Poem of ecstasy, and Coates used almost all of the rehearsal
time on the Scriabin, resulting in an underprepared Cello Concerto.

Actually I have heard it said, about the same recordings you are referring
to, that the conducting is undistinguished, although the soloists are of
course outstanding.

I have seen a couple cds of his in his own bin in the conductors section
of Tower Classics, so he isn't completely forgotten.

This isn't very helpful, but it is sort of interesting.

By the way, there is another Coates in English music during the same
period, Eric, I believe. Does anyone know if they are related?

Ysbrand van der Werf

Tom Moran

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Dec 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/14/96

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hots...@ix.netcom.com writes:

>I own the Claremont/GSE CD GSE 78-50-26 of extended excerpts from a
>Tristan (1926-1929??) led by Albert Coates. Melchior is Tristan, and
>Frida Lieder is Isolde. This has to be heard to be believed. What
>happened to Coates? Did he die a forgotten man?
>
>R.Sauer

W. H. Auden always said that Coates was his favorite Wagner conductor,
since he liked Wagner conducted "at a clip."

He also said that he once attended a Knappertsbusch-conducted Bayreuth
Gotterdammerung and "thought I should go out of my mind."

Personally, I think he was being too hard on Kna.

Tom Moran

Deryk Barker

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Dec 14, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/14/96

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Ysbrand Van Der Werf (ez01...@boris.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: Richard Sauer (hots...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: : I own the Claremont/GSE CD GSE 78-50-26 of extended excerpts from a

: : Tristan (1926-1929??) led by Albert Coates. Melchior is Tristan, and
: : Frida Lieder is Isolde. This has to be heard to be believed. What
: : happened to Coates? Did he die a forgotten man?
: :
: : R.Sauer

:
: I know him only as a "bounder," which is how Elgar's wife referred to him

: after the world premiere of Elgar's Cello Concerto: Elgar conducted this
: piece as part of the same program on which Coates was conducting
: Scriabin's Poem of ecstasy, and Coates used almost all of the rehearsal
: time on the Scriabin, resulting in an underprepared Cello Concerto.

OTOH, Adrian Boult, in his book "My Own trumpet" says
I certainly went to a great many concerts, and took students
to hear all the rehearsals we could get into, notably those of
Albert Coates, who, when he arrived here after the war, did a
great deal to pull up the rather wrinkled socks of London
orchestral performance. I remember hearing him spend fifty
minutes on the Meistersinger Overture, every moment badly
needed. This was the first rehearsal after his return, and we
are now apt to forget what great things he did for our music
in the early twenties, when, except for Sir Henry's [Wood]
sterling work, our standards were pretty low.

Coates spent five years in charge of the Mrinsky Thearte in
St. Petersburg - which is also where he was born, of English parents,
in 1882. He died in retirement in S. Africa in 1953.

:
: Actually I have heard it said, about the same recordings you are referring

: to, that the conducting is undistinguished, although the soloists are of
: course outstanding.
:
: I have seen a couple cds of his in his own bin in the conductors section
: of Tower Classics, so he isn't completely forgotten.

If you see the Claremont issue of his 1926 Eroica and Jupiter, snap it
up, these are extraordinary performances.

: This isn't very helpful, but it is sort of interesting.

:
: By the way, there is another Coates in English music during the same
: period, Eric, I believe. Does anyone know if they are related?

Apparently not, and neither of them are related to mezzo Edith Coates
either.

obl...@nonsense.net

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Dec 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/15/96

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On 13 Dec 1996 20:55:54 GMT, ez01...@boris.ucdavis.edu (Ysbrand Van
Der Werf) wrote:

|Richard Sauer (hots...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
|: I own the Claremont/GSE CD GSE 78-50-26 of extended excerpts from a
|: Tristan (1926-1929??) led by Albert Coates. Melchior is Tristan, and
|: Frida Lieder is Isolde. This has to be heard to be believed. What
|: happened to Coates? Did he die a forgotten man?

He was a major force in recording at EMI (HMV) in the early electrical
era. For American record-buyers, his sonic accomplishments were
perhaps overshadowed by the prodigious figure of Leopold Stokowski,
who not only created sonic miracles for their day but conducted with
considerably more panache. But Coates' forays into Mussorgsky and
Wagner were ground-breaking. He was particularly interested in the
Russian symphonic repertory at a time when the British and American
public looked a bit askance at anything to do with "the reds." (I
know nothing of Coates' politics.)

|By the way, there is another Coates in English music during the same
|period, Eric, I believe. Does anyone know if they are related?

They were brothers, I believe. Eric remained popular into the early
LP era thanks to the engratiating sounds of his popular suites and
Decca/London's willingness to employ them for showcase ffrr issues.

__
I may respect my employer's opinions,
but I don't have to share them.

E-mail to: bob...@taconic.net
(The header may be altered
to foil autospam software.)

Deryk Barker

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Dec 15, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/15/96

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obl...@nonsense.net wrote:
[...]
: |By the way, there is another Coates in English music during the same

: |period, Eric, I believe. Does anyone know if they are related?
:
: They were brothers, I believe. Eric remained popular into the early

Hmmm, neither Baker's nor the New Grove mentions this.

Andrew Quintero

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Dec 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/16/96

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Coates is also at the podium in Vladimir Horowitz's first recording of
Rachmaninov's 3rd Piano concerto, available as part of a three cd set from
EMI. Soloist, conductor, and orchestra are all outstanding IMHO.

Q

Brendan R. Wehrung

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Dec 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/16/96

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(obl...@nonsense.net) writes:
> On 13 Dec 1996 20:55:54 GMT, ez01...@boris.ucdavis.edu (Ysbrand Van
> Der Werf) wrote:
>
> |Richard Sauer (hots...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> |: I own the Claremont/GSE CD GSE 78-50-26 of extended excerpts from a
> |: Tristan (1926-1929??) led by Albert Coates. Melchior is Tristan, and
> |: Frida Lieder is Isolde. This has to be heard to be believed. What
> |: happened to Coates? Did he die a forgotten man?
>
> He was a major force in recording at EMI (HMV) in the early electrical
> era. For American record-buyers, his sonic accomplishments were
> perhaps overshadowed by the prodigious figure of Leopold Stokowski,
> who not only created sonic miracles for their day but conducted with
> considerably more panache.

What have sonics to do with performance quality? There were numerous
figures who were active at the time of Coates' most active recording
period, from German such as Karl Muck to better-known Englishmen such as
Sir Thomas Beecham, who made considerably more recordings with the
"panache" that you attribute to Stokowski. Stokowski's very special
talents of course cannot be denied, but they were not honed in the opera
house as those mentioned above were.

I assume, however, that the remarks above are directed at the
Wagner/Russian rpertory that Coates made his own. Within his limitations
Coates was an impressive conductor. He was a big man and his music-making
sounds like it, pushing through to a rousing comclusion, not alwyas with
the greatest finesse. He was somewhat of a "house" conductor for EMI (the
theory being that if you had a lot of well-known and expensive singers, a
less-well-known and cheaper conductor would do), but with extensive
experience that shows in his accompaniment and support of singers.

But Coates' forays into Mussorgsky and
> Wagner were ground-breaking. He was particularly interested in the
> Russian symphonic repertory at a time when the British and American
> public looked a bit askance at anything to do with "the reds." (I
> know nothing of Coates' politics.)

Tchaikovsky a "red"? I don't think politics had much to do with
appreciation of what the public wanted. U.S. taste had been Germanic for
quite some time, and the heavier Russians were a bit of an acquired taste.

>
> |By the way, there is another Coates in English music during the same
> |period, Eric, I believe. Does anyone know if they are related?
>
> They were brothers, I believe.

One was born in England, the other in Russia. I don't think they were
related any more than Max and Arthur Fiedler were father and son.

Brendan Wehrung

James C.S. Liu

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Dec 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/18/96

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On 13 Dec 1996 04:25:18 GMT, hots...@ix.netcom.com(Richard Sauer )
wrote:

> I own the Claremont/GSE CD GSE 78-50-26 of extended excerpts from a
>Tristan (1926-1929??) led by Albert Coates. Melchior is Tristan, and
>Frida Lieder is Isolde. This has to be heard to be believed. What
>happened to Coates? Did he die a forgotten man?

I've been reading some of the interesting responses to this
question, and I guess it started me thinking, too. Coates is one of
those conductors who turns up all over the place (I remember some
orchestrated Schubert songs with Elisabeth Schumann, and Lord knows
how many opera excerpts), making me wonder if he wasn't one of those
"house" conductors groomed at EMI, who has been made uncelebrated
sheerly by virtue of his prolific output (like the recent thread about
Barbirolli in the UK).
--
/James C.S. Liu |"He puts the 'fun' in 'dysfunctional.'"
jame...@yale.edu |"He is depriving a village somewhere of
New Haven, Connecticut| an idiot." -- seen in performance reviews
My opinions have nothing to do with my employer!

fr...@clark.net

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Dec 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/18/96

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On Wed, 18 Dec 1996, James C.S. Liu wrote:

> On 13 Dec 1996 04:25:18 GMT, hots...@ix.netcom.com(Richard Sauer )
> wrote:
>
> > I own the Claremont/GSE CD GSE 78-50-26 of extended excerpts from a
> >Tristan (1926-1929??) led by Albert Coates. Melchior is Tristan, and
> >Frida Lieder is Isolde. This has to be heard to be believed. What
> >happened to Coates? Did he die a forgotten man?

Pretty much, I'm sorry to say. He made recordings for English Coumbia
between 1919 and 1921, 15 sides of which were released. Then he swtiched
to HMV, with oodles of records until 1932. He was gone until 1945, when he
made a few records for English Decca: Romeo & Juliet of Tch., Night on
Bald Mountain, Pathetique Sym., and 3 misc. sides. All in all, there were
about 25 C-90s worth of records. In my view, he ranks alongside Scherchen
and Mravinsky and below only Mengelberg.

> I've been reading some of the interesting responses to this
> question, and I guess it started me thinking, too. Coates is one of
> those conductors who turns up all over the place (I remember some
> orchestrated Schubert songs with Elisabeth Schumann

No Schubert (or Schumann, for that matter) in his dg. Elisabeth Schumann
did participate in the first rec. of the b Mass, though. Coates made two
recordings of Beethoven 9, both sung in English, 1923 (acoustic) and 1926
(electric). Stokowski and Weingartner also made English-language
recordings of the work (both electric).

, and Lord knows
> how many opera excerpts),

Let's see:
Carmen: Les Voici [1 side, chrous]
Faust: Kermesse [1, Chaliapin]
Salome: Opening scene [6, Ljungberg, Walker, Davies, Baker, Halland]
various orchestral movements, like Dance of the Tumblers, Polovtsian
March, etc.
AND

oodles of Wagner, including an English-language greatly abridged Ring.
This series was jointly shared with Landon Ronald and Eugene Goossens.
Some of this music was not to be recorded again until after 1936. This
series takes up two C-90s.

Coates also did a seven-disc abridged Parsifal in English [1925 electric].
But his best known Wagner is the electric abridged Ring, which he shared
with Leo Blech and Laurence Collingwood. It's available on a 7-CD Pearl
set. These were issued here on Victor M sets, but Coates rerecorded a
number of sides for HMV. His dg is extremely complicated.

making me wonder if he wasn't one of those
> "house" conductors groomed at EMI, who has been made uncelebrated
> sheerly by virtue of his prolific output (like the recent thread about
> Barbirolli in the UK).

No, definitely not a house conductor. Of the above mentioned, I would
classify Ronald as one. He made a quite a number of recordings as a piano
accompanist also. Another house conductor who also spanned the changeover
was Frieder Weissmann (who recorded all the Beethoven symphonies except
the 7th, making Weingartner the first to record all nine).

The greatest of all the house conductors was Piero Coppola, whose firsts
of many French works, like the Organ Symphony, have yet to be surpassed.

You might call Victor Herbert a house conductor, as he never directed an
orchestra except his own. Same for the forgotten
Johan Hye-Knudsen,
Albert W. Kettelbey,
Stanley Chapple,
Josef Pasternack (whose name appears all over the place as either piano
accompanist or conductor with many of the vocal greats, like McCormack. He
was the musical director of the Victor Talking Machine Company,
1916-1927),
Francois Ruhlmann (Orchestre Pathe-Freres, ie, the Pathe-Brothers' label),
Carlo Sabajno (Muscial director, Societa nazionale del "Grammophono"),
Bruno Seidler-Winkler (Artistic Director, DGG; another pianist)
Nathaniel Shilkret (like Pasternack, a pianist also, and Musical Director
of Victor, 1916-35. There must have been two directors for a while! About
as ubiquitous as Pasternack)
Cuthbert Whitemore, cond. Aeolian Orch., Aeolian being a label.

Well, that pretty much covers the acoustic period, though I might have
included others who conducted their own orchestras, but I don't know
whether these orchestras gave public concerts. I should state that
Weismann, for example, conducted major orchestras, like the BPO and BSOO,
but apparently only for recording, though perhaps also for public concerts
when the principal conductor was not around.

This information comes from Claude Arnold's invaluable, _A Discography of
the Orchestra: 1898-1925/26_, whose MS has been submitted to Greenwood
Press at last. (Well, I included some of my own knowledge too.)

Hope this is of some interest!

Frank Forman
fr...@clark.net
"It is a far, far better thing to be firmly
anchored in nonsense than to put out on the
troubled seas of thought" - John Kenneth Galbraith

Harry Hurwitz

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Dec 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM12/23/96

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In article <32b8194a...@news.yale.edu>, jame...@yale.edu (James
C.S. Liu) wrote:

> On 13 Dec 1996 04:25:18 GMT, hots...@ix.netcom.com(Richard Sauer )
> wrote:
>
> > I own the Claremont/GSE CD GSE 78-50-26 of extended excerpts from a
> >Tristan (1926-1929??) led by Albert Coates. Melchior is Tristan, and
> >Frida Lieder is Isolde. This has to be heard to be believed. What
> >happened to Coates? Did he die a forgotten man?
>

> I've been reading some of the interesting responses to this
> question, and I guess it started me thinking, too. Coates is one of
> those conductors who turns up all over the place (I remember some

> orchestrated Schubert songs with Elisabeth Schumann, and Lord knows
> how many opera excerpts), making me wonder if he wasn't one of those

> "house" conductors groomed at EMI, who has been made uncelebrated
> sheerly by virtue of his prolific output (like the recent thread about
> Barbirolli in the UK).

> --
> /James C.S. Liu |"He puts the 'fun' in 'dysfunctional.'"
> jame...@yale.edu |"He is depriving a village somewhere of
> New Haven, Connecticut| an idiot." -- seen in performance reviews
> My opinions have nothing to do with my employer!

Coates got gravely ill towards the end of the War (WW2) and after serving
for a short time as principal conductor of the South African Broadcasting
Symphony Orchestra, Johannesburg, retired to Cape Town where he died a few
years after retirement. He was warm, approachable person with Messianic
fervour and an incredible podium presence, as well as a fine perceptive
and inspiring teacher. The one feature of his conducting which left a deep
impression on my was his economy of movement. He could rouse an orchestra
to feverpitch playing making relatively few gestures. Perhaps this was
already a sign of his illness, but I suspected that his training with
Nikish was a more critical factor.

--
Harry Hurwitz, Symphonic Workshops
e-mail: sym...@interlog.com
Web page: http://gold.interlog.com/~symphwk/