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coronavirus COVID-19
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kill...@coronavirus.com
Apr 18, 2020, 4:58:28 PM4/18/20
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Bozo
Apr 19, 2020, 11:06:32 AM4/19/20
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Bozo
Apr 19, 2020, 7:08:54 PM4/19/20
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WAPO newsletter today : https://tinyurl.com/y8oakyka
Frank Berger
Apr 19, 2020, 9:52:43 PM4/19/20
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Did you read the article? It doesn't even assert (let alone with some
kind of source) that Trump knew anything or should have acted sooner
that he has said he did. It simply says CDC and other Americans
(explictly referred to as non-decision makers) were working at the WHO.
It doesn't say who said what or when. This doesn't come close to
passing a smell test.
kind of source) that Trump knew anything or should have acted sooner
that he has said he did. It simply says CDC and other Americans
(explictly referred to as non-decision makers) were working at the WHO.
It doesn't say who said what or when. This doesn't come close to
passing a smell test.
Bozo
Apr 21, 2020, 9:19:26 PM4/21/20
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>On Sunday, April 19, 2020 at 8:52:43 PM UTC-5, Frank Berger wrote:
> Did you read the article?
Yes. It was clear to me. When I read 2 + 2 , I dont need the article to then spell out = 4.
> Did you read the article?
Bozo
Apr 21, 2020, 9:19:54 PM4/21/20
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Bozo
Apr 21, 2020, 9:30:30 PM4/21/20
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Frank Berger
Apr 21, 2020, 9:50:42 PM4/21/20
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Otherwise, never mind.
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 21, 2020, 11:59:49 PM4/21/20
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On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 4:58:28 PM UTC-4, kill...@coronavirus.com wrote:
> coronavirus COVID-19
> http://www.grex.org/~henced/coronavirus.html
President Donald Trump on April 20 resorted to questioning whether a campaign rally he held in March had actually taken place after he was caught in a lie claiming that he hadn’t left the White House in months.
“I don’t know about rallies, I really don’t know about rallies,” Trump said at his press briefing when PBS reporter Yamiche Alcindor mentioned his continued campaign events during the worsening coronavirus pandemic.
“I know one thing, I haven’t left the White House in months, except for a brief moment to give a wonderful ship, the [USNS] Comfort,” he said.
When Alcindor pointed out that he had held a campaign rally on March 3, Trump said: “I don’t know, did I hold a rally? I’m sorry, I hold a rally. Did I hold a rally?”
Trump held five campaign events in February and one in March.
The exchange occurred after Alcindor asked Trump to acknowledge whether he believed his downplaying of coronavirus in the early stages of the outbreak had resulted in people getting sick. She cited an interviewee who said they’d attended a funeral in mid-March and their family members fell ill because they were following cues from the president, who wasn’t taking it seriously, wearing a mask or telling people to stay home.
Trump responded to this question by saying: “A lot of people love Trump, right?” He then patted himself on the back for issuing travel restrictions on China on Jan. 31 and declared that “people should say I acted very early.”
Critics noted that the Jan. 31 move, which banned foreigners who had been in China in the last 14 days from entering the United States, made sense, but required a simultaneous effort to establish widespread testing, equip hospitals with proper medical supplies and limit the spread of the virus.
Yet in late February, Trump labeled the virus a “hoax” during a South Carolina rally. On March 9, when more than 500 people had been diagnosed with COVID-19, he compared coronavirus to the “common flu.”
The outbreak was declared a global pandemic two days later and Trump subsequently canceled his upcoming rallies “out of an abundance of caution.”
> coronavirus COVID-19
> http://www.grex.org/~henced/coronavirus.html
President Donald Trump on April 20 resorted to questioning whether a campaign rally he held in March had actually taken place after he was caught in a lie claiming that he hadn’t left the White House in months.
“I don’t know about rallies, I really don’t know about rallies,” Trump said at his press briefing when PBS reporter Yamiche Alcindor mentioned his continued campaign events during the worsening coronavirus pandemic.
“I know one thing, I haven’t left the White House in months, except for a brief moment to give a wonderful ship, the [USNS] Comfort,” he said.
When Alcindor pointed out that he had held a campaign rally on March 3, Trump said: “I don’t know, did I hold a rally? I’m sorry, I hold a rally. Did I hold a rally?”
Trump held five campaign events in February and one in March.
The exchange occurred after Alcindor asked Trump to acknowledge whether he believed his downplaying of coronavirus in the early stages of the outbreak had resulted in people getting sick. She cited an interviewee who said they’d attended a funeral in mid-March and their family members fell ill because they were following cues from the president, who wasn’t taking it seriously, wearing a mask or telling people to stay home.
Trump responded to this question by saying: “A lot of people love Trump, right?” He then patted himself on the back for issuing travel restrictions on China on Jan. 31 and declared that “people should say I acted very early.”
Critics noted that the Jan. 31 move, which banned foreigners who had been in China in the last 14 days from entering the United States, made sense, but required a simultaneous effort to establish widespread testing, equip hospitals with proper medical supplies and limit the spread of the virus.
Yet in late February, Trump labeled the virus a “hoax” during a South Carolina rally. On March 9, when more than 500 people had been diagnosed with COVID-19, he compared coronavirus to the “common flu.”
The outbreak was declared a global pandemic two days later and Trump subsequently canceled his upcoming rallies “out of an abundance of caution.”
Bozo
Apr 22, 2020, 9:16:32 AM4/22/20
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What other countries doing with same info US had / has:
https://tinyurl.com/ydbj9auy
“ So maybe we shouldn’t be surprised that the United States isn’t reducing the spread of the virus as well as many other countries. We don’t seem to be trying as hard.” Leonhardt,NYT.
https://tinyurl.com/ydbj9auy
“ So maybe we shouldn’t be surprised that the United States isn’t reducing the spread of the virus as well as many other countries. We don’t seem to be trying as hard.” Leonhardt,NYT.
Frank Berger
Apr 22, 2020, 11:17:32 AM4/22/20
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different cycle, depending not only on what and when mitigation measures
were taken, but on other things too, like when tourists went to China or
when Chinese tourists came to them. The total number of cases and
deaths is meaningless. Not that the we couldn't have done better, but
France, Spain, Italy, Sweden, Andorra, Ireland and the UK have more
deaths per million population than the US. No doubt Iran does also, but
their data are bogus.
graham
Apr 22, 2020, 11:44:22 AM4/22/20
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density in those countries is much higher than that of the US as a
whole. Wouldn't it be better to compare them with, say, NY alone?
graham
Apr 22, 2020, 11:51:58 AM4/22/20
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smo...@hotmail.com
Apr 22, 2020, 11:54:23 AM4/22/20
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A lot of countries in Europe didn’t get most cases from people traveling to China or from visiting Chinese tourists, but from Italy or Austria. I have read that a lot of cases in New York are due to people traveling from Europe. You could say, Trump closed one door, but let another wide open. In effect so did countries in Europe only monitoring people who had been skiing in Italy but not people skiing across the border in Austria. Many countries have made mistakes. (Of course the virus came to Italy from China in the first place).
But where some countries learned early on from what happened in Italy (and China) others didn’t. (Even if China has kept information from the rest of the world you can still learn from what happened and how it was handled - e.g. see Tomas Pueyo’s article on Medium “Why you must act now”).
As to comparing numbers you might want to read Nate Silvers piece on that (“Coronavirus Case Counts Are Meaningless*”).
Soeren
But where some countries learned early on from what happened in Italy (and China) others didn’t. (Even if China has kept information from the rest of the world you can still learn from what happened and how it was handled - e.g. see Tomas Pueyo’s article on Medium “Why you must act now”).
As to comparing numbers you might want to read Nate Silvers piece on that (“Coronavirus Case Counts Are Meaningless*”).
Soeren
Gerard
Apr 22, 2020, 1:57:34 PM4/22/20
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Op woensdag 22 april 2020 17:17:32 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
The number of deaths is not meaningless at all.
Compare it to China.
China has many, many more inhabitants than the US.
Number of deaths in China: around 46 HUNDRED.
Number of deaths in the USA: around 46 THOUSAND.
Compare it to China.
China has many, many more inhabitants than the US.
Number of deaths in China: around 46 HUNDRED.
Number of deaths in the USA: around 46 THOUSAND.
Frank Berger
Apr 22, 2020, 2:15:00 PM4/22/20
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places. I suppose the statistics should be adjusted for population
density. Maybe also for education level, as I would guess the less
educated would be less apt to conform to distancing, wearing masks, etc.
Frank Berger
Apr 22, 2020, 2:18:31 PM4/22/20
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And as you tried in your reply to adjust for population, you have made
no sense at all.
Gerard
Apr 22, 2020, 2:30:49 PM4/22/20
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Op woensdag 22 april 2020 20:18:31 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
Which confirms that not only these discussions are meaningless, but specially everything you say.
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 22, 2020, 2:35:43 PM4/22/20
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On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 4:58:28 PM UTC-4, kill...@coronavirus.com wrote:
> coronavirus COVID-19
> http://www.grex.org/~henced/coronavirus.html
Germany’s 16 federal states have made it mandatory for people to wear face masks when they enter shops or board public transport from next Monday.
> coronavirus COVID-19
> http://www.grex.org/~henced/coronavirus.html
It was up to each state to decide whether it would insist on mouth-and-nose covering in public, and several of them already mandated masks last week. There are no set rules about what kind of masks they should be – home-made cotton ones are also acceptable as protection.
Johns Hopkins University data shows that as of Wednesday, Germany has 148,704 confirmed coronavirus cases, and 5,100 recorded deaths.
Authorities have stressed that wearing a face mask does not mean people should not stick to social distancing rules — the masks can only help prevent asymptomatic carriers of coronavirus from infecting others.
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 22, 2020, 2:53:01 PM4/22/20
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On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 4:58:28 PM UTC-4, kill...@coronavirus.com wrote:
> coronavirus COVID-19
> http://www.grex.org/~henced/coronavirus.html
45 says that when he saw the videos of the protestors to the lockdowns they were all practicing safe distancing rules.(!) That can only mean
> coronavirus COVID-19
> http://www.grex.org/~henced/coronavirus.html
1- he is delusionsal and only sees what he wants to see regardless of what is actually occuring or
2 - he is lying which he seems to do every other time he opens his mouth.
smo...@hotmail.com
Apr 22, 2020, 3:13:03 PM4/22/20
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Comparing deaths sound easy, but it is not. In my country everyone who died within 30 days of testing positive for covid19 is counted in the statistic as having died from covid19. In theory a person would be counted dead from covid19 even if the person died in a traffic accident.
In some countries people dying outside hospitals aren’t included in the number of dead from covid19. Supposedly the UK numbers are way to low - whereas Belgium claims their numbers are high because they include a wider group than other countries. And then there are some countries you probably can’t rely on to be truthful. Also, there can be a lag in reporting the dead from local to central authorities which means trends can be hard to see. At least on website does 7 day averages but they are of course not better than the data the receive.
Soeren
In some countries people dying outside hospitals aren’t included in the number of dead from covid19. Supposedly the UK numbers are way to low - whereas Belgium claims their numbers are high because they include a wider group than other countries. And then there are some countries you probably can’t rely on to be truthful. Also, there can be a lag in reporting the dead from local to central authorities which means trends can be hard to see. At least on website does 7 day averages but they are of course not better than the data the receive.
Soeren
AB
Apr 22, 2020, 3:19:19 PM4/22/20
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AB
AB
Apr 22, 2020, 3:24:01 PM4/22/20
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AB
Frank Berger
Apr 22, 2020, 3:37:00 PM4/22/20
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in them. You do think they are meaningless but participate anyway. One
of us is ill.
Gerard
Apr 22, 2020, 3:49:12 PM4/22/20
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Op woensdag 22 april 2020 21:37:00 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:
That must be the one who thinks that these discussions have any meaning.
Steven Bornfeld
Apr 22, 2020, 4:34:44 PM4/22/20
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workers generally don't have the option of working from home. They may
depend upon mass transit. That is certainly the case in NYC.
Steven Bornfeld
Apr 22, 2020, 4:37:43 PM4/22/20
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statistics out of China are almost impossible for me (in any case) to
view as credible.
And that's too bad. Because as China re-opens Wuhan, what goes on there
could be very instructive for the rest of the world--but not if there
isn't transparency.
Steve
Frank Berger
Apr 22, 2020, 4:53:33 PM4/22/20
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year old is more tragic, in a sense than the death of an 80 year old
whose life expectancy was much shorter. Harsh but true. Not sure to
what extent this affect cross country comparisons, but Italy has the
second oldest population in the world, IIRC, and apparently high
mortality from Covid-19.
Frank Berger
Apr 22, 2020, 4:54:32 PM4/22/20
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Frank Berger
Apr 22, 2020, 4:55:42 PM4/22/20
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Frank Berger
Apr 22, 2020, 4:56:56 PM4/22/20
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Oscar
Apr 22, 2020, 5:27:43 PM4/22/20
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On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 8:54:23 AM UTC-7, smo...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> A lot of countries in Europe didn’t get most cases from people traveling to China or from visiting Chinese
> tourists, but from Italy or Austria. I have read that a lot of cases in New York are due to people traveling
> from Europe.
It's true. A lot of white liberals returning from the Swiss Alps infected low-wage essential workers who happen to be Brown and Black. Their privilege is to blame.
>
> A lot of countries in Europe didn’t get most cases from people traveling to China or from visiting Chinese
> tourists, but from Italy or Austria. I have read that a lot of cases in New York are due to people traveling
> from Europe.
> You could say, Trump closed one door, but let another wide open. In effect so did countries in Europe
> only monitoring people who had been skiing in Italy but not people skiing across the border in Austria.
> Many countries have made mistakes. (Of course the virus came to Italy from China in the first place).
Celebrated NBC News international correspondent Richard Engel on MSNBC, March 18, 2020:
<< If you look at what happened during the Middle Ages, there was lots and lots of scapegoating against an ethnic group or a religious group whenever there were pandemics that affected the society and frightened a lot of people. And China certainly feels that is what’s happening now with people calling it the ‘Wuhan flu’ or the ‘Wuhan virus’ or the ‘China virus.’
This is a virus that came from the territory of China but came from bats. This is a bat virus, not a China virus. It doesn’t target Chinese people. It targets human beings who happen to touch their eyes, nose or mouth.” >>
https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1240328061721157632?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
> But where some countries learned early on from what happened in Italy (and China) others didn’t. (Even
> if China has kept information from the rest of the world you can still learn from what happened and how
> it was handled - e.g. see Tomas Pueyo’s article on Medium “Why you must act now”).
<< CHP bans protests at California Capitol after rally against Newsom’s stay-at-home order
By Sam Stanton
April 22, 2020
Following Monday’s protest at the state Capitol where demonstrators defied Gov. Gavin Newsom’s orders banning large gatherings, the California Highway Patrol says it will no longer issue permits for events at any state properties, including the Capitol.
“Permits are issued to provide safe environments for demonstrators to express their views,” the CHP said in a statement. “In this case, the permit for the convoy was issued with the understanding that the protest would be conducted in a manner consistent with the state’s public health guidance.
“That is not what occurred, and CHP will take this experience into account when considering permits for this or any other group.” >>
https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article242198781.html
> As to comparing numbers you might want to read Nate Silvers piece on that (“Coronavirus Case Counts
> Are Meaningless*”).
The entire 2016 campaign season was characterized by a series of spectacular Silver blunders. Not only did he notoriously give Hillary Clinton a greater than 99 percent chance of winning the Michigan primary (she lost to Bernie), and then bungled Indiana as well, but he spent a lot of the 18 month campaign on Twitter making a consistent fool of himself. Here follows but a sampling:
“I wonder how much of the Trump Bump is just voters trolling pollsters,” Two Good Reasons Not To Take the Donald Trump ‘Surge’ Seriously — July 16, 2015.
“Basically Trump is the Nickelback of presidential candidates. Disliked by most, super popular with a few.” — July 28, 2015
“PREDICTION: Trump won’t be the Republican /nominee.” — Aug. 6, 2015
“Media: Trump’s doing great! Nerds: No. Those polls don’t mean what you think. Media: A new poll shows Trump doing great! Proved you wrong!” — Aug. 9, 2015
“Donald Trump is winning the polls and losing the nomination.” — Aug. 11, 2015
“About 25% of Americans identify as Republican. Donald Trump’s getting about 25% of that 25% in the polls. Why is this impressive to people?” — Nov. 19, 2015
“Dear media, Please stop freaking out about Donald Trump’s polls.” — Nov. 23, 2015.
“As for me, I remain quite skeptical of Trump’s chances. I also think his nomination would be an unmitigated catastrophe for Republicans.” — Nov. 29, 2015
“Idea that ‘Trump would win an election today’ also dubious. If election were today, voters would be more informed and news cycle different.” — Dec. 4, 2015
(in response to Rupert Murdoch tweeting that Trump’s “cross-party appeal” was a “winning strategy”): “Actually, Trump is by far the least popular Republican with independents (and Democrats)”— Jan. 15, 2016
“Wait it’s just now sinking in that Trump might be a wee bit problematic as a general election candidate?” — March 20, 2016
“Trump’s general elex numbers have been terrible since he launched bid. Media barely noticed during 2015 Trumpmania.” — March 29, 2016
“[Idea of Trump being presumptive nominee by mid-May] is delusional. Math doesn’t work.” — April 9, 2016
“The bad news for Trump is that a poll showing him 5 points down is considered good news for Trump.” — June 26, 2016
“Perhaps the worst take is the ‘Trump’s actually doing well to only be down by 7!!!’ take. He’s the least popular major-party nominee ever.” — Aug. 3, 2016
“Trump has been super unpopular with the November electorate pretty much forever.” — Aug. 16, 2016
“Trump is doubling down on a losing strategy.” — Aug. 18, 2016
“[The] most delusional part of Trump thinking he has a silent majority is how small a fraction of the population he’s even bothering to appeal to.” — Aug. 13, 2016
<end>
Bob Harper
Apr 22, 2020, 5:32:50 PM4/22/20
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Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Apr 22, 2020, 5:34:13 PM4/22/20
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Bob Harper
Raymond Hall
Apr 22, 2020, 7:36:29 PM4/22/20
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On Thursday, 23 April 2020 04:53:01 UTC+10, RANDY WOLFGANG wrote:
> On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 4:58:28 PM UTC-4, kill...@coronavirus.com wrote:
> > coronavirus COVID-19
> > http://www.grex.org/~henced/coronavirus.html
>
> 45 says that when he saw the videos of the protestors to the lockdowns they were all practicing safe distancing rules.(!) That can only mean
>
> 1- he is delusionsal and only sees what he wants to see regardless of what is actually occuring or
There has been 3 years of this happening, and yet in some posts, he is still defended. Absolutely unbelievable. What is even more unbelievable about the crazies who want their freedom to go around as per normal and infect others, is Trump's endorsement of them. It goes without saying that the crazies are Trump supporters. They should be locked up.
> On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 4:58:28 PM UTC-4, kill...@coronavirus.com wrote:
> > coronavirus COVID-19
> > http://www.grex.org/~henced/coronavirus.html
>
> 45 says that when he saw the videos of the protestors to the lockdowns they were all practicing safe distancing rules.(!) That can only mean
>
> 1- he is delusionsal and only sees what he wants to see regardless of what is actually occuring or
> 2 - he is lying which he seems to do every other time he opens his mouth.
Ray Hall, Taree
Raymond Hall
Apr 22, 2020, 7:38:34 PM4/22/20
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Ray Hall, Taree
Frank Berger
Apr 22, 2020, 7:42:44 PM4/22/20
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intact. The President can pretty much fire anyone who works for him. It
may be wrong or unfair or stupid, but it is not in the least totalitarian.
Raymond Hall
Apr 22, 2020, 7:48:14 PM4/22/20
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On Thursday, 23 April 2020 06:37:43 UTC+10, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't think that "these discussions" are meaningless, so I participate
> >> in them. You do think they are meaningless but participate anyway. One
> >> of us is ill.
> >
> > That must be the one who thinks that these discussions have any meaning.
> >
>
> This is one of those instances that I agree totally with Frank. The
> statistics out of China are almost impossible for me (in any case) to
> view as credible.
> And that's too bad. Because as China re-opens Wuhan, what goes on there
> could be very instructive for the rest of the world--but not if there
> isn't transparency.
>
> Steve
China should be left out of any real discussions regarding numbers, etc., in order that any discussion be concentrated upon how the rest of the world is dealing with this pandemic, because China will always be used as a scapegoat for those who wish to deflect blame elsewhere.
> >>
> >> I don't think that "these discussions" are meaningless, so I participate
> >> in them. You do think they are meaningless but participate anyway. One
> >> of us is ill.
> >
> > That must be the one who thinks that these discussions have any meaning.
> >
>
> This is one of those instances that I agree totally with Frank. The
> statistics out of China are almost impossible for me (in any case) to
> view as credible.
> And that's too bad. Because as China re-opens Wuhan, what goes on there
> could be very instructive for the rest of the world--but not if there
> isn't transparency.
>
> Steve
There are those who who only think in terms of bad guys, and good guys.
Ray Hall, Taree
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 22, 2020, 8:42:38 PM4/22/20
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RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 22, 2020, 8:47:10 PM4/22/20
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richard...@gmail.com
Apr 22, 2020, 10:26:25 PM4/22/20
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England: 1010 people per sq mile
UK: 650 per square mile
Your generalisation fails.
Frank Berger
Apr 22, 2020, 11:17:01 PM4/22/20
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epicenter of the epidemic, not Buffalo or Syracue, or Watkins Glen.
JohnGavin
Apr 22, 2020, 11:36:33 PM4/22/20
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- show quoted text -
45 sure does, you hear it come out of his mouth every single day. Its always us against them - or to be more specific anyne who doesn't agree with him is the bad guy and will be fired or removed or replaced regardless of their talent or qualifications. They are the enemy.
—————————/———————————————-
And his supporters are just about as bad as he is. Their strategy is to never, under any circumstances, admit they are wrong about anything. The worse 45 gets, the deeper they dig their heels in. There’s a part of him in his avid defenders - they are all a symptom of the coarsening of the American consciousness.
Frank Berger
Apr 22, 2020, 11:40:51 PM4/22/20
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say was "some of his supporters." Not everyone who voted or will vote
for Trump are attached to him to the same degree. I know some people
who are essentially one-issue voters who vote for him on the basis of
that issue and can't stand him otherwise.
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 23, 2020, 12:10:04 AM4/23/20
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Oscar
Apr 23, 2020, 12:40:18 AM4/23/20
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On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 9:10:04 PM, RANDY WOLFGANG wrote:
>
> BTW its a shame his wife has a problme with gays - maybe if she knew some they would
> talk her out of dressing like Mamie Eisenhower.
Can we talk about Jill Biden and maybe, perhaps, if she had some real friends they would talk her into talking her husband out of making a fool of himself in the months ahead? When she has to sit next to him as the loving wife during these television interviews, looking on with a not so much blank expression on her, but one of intensely silent concern. Observing a clear and present decline, knowing as a career politician's wife the impending 25th Amendment injunction that will be joined against her betrothed should he prevail in November. Bless her heart.
>
> BTW its a shame his wife has a problme with gays - maybe if she knew some they would
> talk her out of dressing like Mamie Eisenhower.
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 23, 2020, 12:46:19 AM4/23/20
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smo...@hotmail.com
Apr 23, 2020, 1:00:28 AM4/23/20
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Oscar, just because someone is wrong about something doesn’t mean that person is wrong about everything - if you have something to say about the article I referred to, please do, but the stuff about the author’s faith or the 2016 election isn’t relevant as far as I’m concerned.
Even if one doesn’t like the way the Chinese authorities handled the virus in Wuhan (or doesn’t like the Chinese authorities in general), what happened is still something you could learn from. For one thing - and this was clear from Italy as well - if you don’t react quickly and introduce some measures of social distancing, your hospitals will be in risk of not being able to treat all patients.
Soeren
Even if one doesn’t like the way the Chinese authorities handled the virus in Wuhan (or doesn’t like the Chinese authorities in general), what happened is still something you could learn from. For one thing - and this was clear from Italy as well - if you don’t react quickly and introduce some measures of social distancing, your hospitals will be in risk of not being able to treat all patients.
Soeren
Bob Harper
Apr 23, 2020, 1:25:10 AM4/23/20
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rest of the world, the onus of responsibility for this horror rests
squarely on Xi and his henchmen. We should never forget that, and we
should never let them forget that we know that.
Bob Harper
Oscar
Apr 23, 2020, 1:33:52 AM4/23/20
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On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 10:00:28 PM, Soeren wrote:
>
> Even if one doesn’t like the way the Chinese authorities handled the virus in Wuhan (or doesn’t like the
> Chinese authorities in general), what happened is still something you could learn from. For one thing - and
> this was clear from Italy as well - if you don’t react quickly and introduce some measures of social
> distancing, your hospitals will be in risk of not being able to treat all patients.
You are correct, and I concur. However, Red Tedros praising Red China in February, for, as he put it, "Its actions actually helped prevent the spread of coronavirus to other countries,” and that he was "very impressed and encouraged by the president’s detailed knowledge of the outbreak" beggars suspension of belief. Is this the Matrix we're living in?
>
> Even if one doesn’t like the way the Chinese authorities handled the virus in Wuhan (or doesn’t like the
> Chinese authorities in general), what happened is still something you could learn from. For one thing - and
> this was clear from Italy as well - if you don’t react quickly and introduce some measures of social
> distancing, your hospitals will be in risk of not being able to treat all patients.
Gerard
Apr 23, 2020, 4:49:18 AM4/23/20
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Op donderdag 23 april 2020 01:36:29 UTC+2 schreef Raymond Hall:
Everyone with working brains sees and knows what an utterly disgusting person and dangerous and irresponsable type this childish guy in the White house is, only concerned about his popularity ratings in stead of about people. Who thinks that all power belongs to him. A disgrace to humanity. A scandal. It's too obvious. But blind people (like some of the never stopping participants here) will not stop defending him and his right to be as disgusting as he likes.
When he looses the coming elections, you can be sure about his revenge and about naming it a "coup by the enemies of the people". (He would like to follow what Erdogan did: imprisoning journalists, scientists, everyone who disagrees with him of criticizes him, all Democrats.) He could be a real danger to the world.
When he looses the coming elections, you can be sure about his revenge and about naming it a "coup by the enemies of the people". (He would like to follow what Erdogan did: imprisoning journalists, scientists, everyone who disagrees with him of criticizes him, all Democrats.) He could be a real danger to the world.
Gerard
Apr 23, 2020, 4:50:18 AM4/23/20
to
Op donderdag 23 april 2020 01:48:14 UTC+2 schreef Raymond Hall:
In countries where the government is failing seriously in this regard, China will be blaimed anyway by those who always defend their government blindly.
I don't think China should be left out in these discussions. One reason is that "real discussions" don't take place here.
Regarding numbers:
https://localfocus2.appspot.com/5e6f877460e13
This site mentions 4636 deaths in China (which is 3,2 deaths per million inhabitants), 46784 deaths in the USA. Even if the actual number in China would be TEN (10) times what has been mentioned (and if the numbers of deaths would be the same as in the USA), China would have 32 deaths per million inhabitants, For the USA that number is 142 per million inhabitants - 32 does not come close.
Wether there are good guys or bad guys in the government, the USA is not equipped with a safety net for those who lose their income and a good health care for everyone and with an efficient coordinate for tackling this problem. It is not only every state for itself, but also every hospital for itself and everyone for himself.
(USA: 330 million inhabitants
China: 1440 million inhabitants)
I don't think China should be left out in these discussions. One reason is that "real discussions" don't take place here.
Regarding numbers:
https://localfocus2.appspot.com/5e6f877460e13
This site mentions 4636 deaths in China (which is 3,2 deaths per million inhabitants), 46784 deaths in the USA. Even if the actual number in China would be TEN (10) times what has been mentioned (and if the numbers of deaths would be the same as in the USA), China would have 32 deaths per million inhabitants, For the USA that number is 142 per million inhabitants - 32 does not come close.
Wether there are good guys or bad guys in the government, the USA is not equipped with a safety net for those who lose their income and a good health care for everyone and with an efficient coordinate for tackling this problem. It is not only every state for itself, but also every hospital for itself and everyone for himself.
(USA: 330 million inhabitants
China: 1440 million inhabitants)
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 23, 2020, 6:43:34 AM4/23/20
to
JohnGavin
Apr 23, 2020, 7:38:02 AM4/23/20
to
Can we talk about Jill Biden and maybe, perhaps, if she had some real friends they would talk her into talking her husband out of making a fool of himself in the months ahead? When she has to sit next to him as the loving wife during these television interviews, looking on with a not so much blank expression on her, but one of intensely silent concern. Observing a clear and present decline.
——————————————————————
Has it occurred to you, Oscar, that you are actually describing the current First Lady?
——————————————————————
Has it occurred to you, Oscar, that you are actually describing the current First Lady?
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 23, 2020, 7:52:05 AM4/23/20
to
On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 7:38:02 AM UTC-4, JohnGavin wrote:
> Can we talk about Jill Biden and maybe, perhaps, if she had some real friends they would talk her into talking her husband out of making a fool of himself in the months ahead? When she has to sit next to him as the loving wife during these television interviews, looking on with a not so much blank expression on her, but one of intensely silent concern. Observing a clear and present decline.
> ——————————————————————
> Has it occurred to you, Oscar, that you are actually describing the current First Lady?
True though what I see on her face is less concern than a wish for a speedy decline
> Can we talk about Jill Biden and maybe, perhaps, if she had some real friends they would talk her into talking her husband out of making a fool of himself in the months ahead? When she has to sit next to him as the loving wife during these television interviews, looking on with a not so much blank expression on her, but one of intensely silent concern. Observing a clear and present decline.
> ——————————————————————
> Has it occurred to you, Oscar, that you are actually describing the current First Lady?
MiNe109
Apr 23, 2020, 10:42:40 AM4/23/20
to
On 4/22/20 10:16 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> I had New York City in mind, 26,403 perople per sq mile. NYC is the
> epicenter of the epidemic, not Buffalo or Syracue, or Watkins Glen.
Wasn't suburban New Rochelle an early hotspot?
>
> I had New York City in mind, 26,403 perople per sq mile. NYC is the
> epicenter of the epidemic, not Buffalo or Syracue, or Watkins Glen.
gggg...@gmail.com
Apr 23, 2020, 10:55:50 AM4/23/20
to
On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 10:25:10 PM UTC-7, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 4/22/20 4:48 PM, Raymond Hall wrote:
> > On Thursday, 23 April 2020 06:37:43 UTC+10, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't think that "these discussions" are meaningless, so I participate
> >>>> in them. You do think they are meaningless but participate anyway. One
> >>>> of us is ill.
> >>>
> >>> That must be the one who thinks that these discussions have any meaning.
> >>>
> >>
> >> This is one of those instances that I agree totally with Frank. The
> >> statistics out of China are almost impossible for me (in any case) to
> >> view as credible...
> On 4/22/20 4:48 PM, Raymond Hall wrote:
> > On Thursday, 23 April 2020 06:37:43 UTC+10, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't think that "these discussions" are meaningless, so I participate
> >>>> in them. You do think they are meaningless but participate anyway. One
> >>>> of us is ill.
> >>>
> >>> That must be the one who thinks that these discussions have any meaning.
> >>>
> >>
> >> This is one of those instances that I agree totally with Frank. The
> >> statistics out of China are almost impossible for me (in any case) to
Many countries are probably under reporting their statistics because they don't want to be perceived as being the cause of a global pandemic.
They are under reporting so that they can avoid this:
https://www.npr.org/2020/04/23/842195529/missouri-sues-china-for-its-handling-of-covid-19-outbreak
gggg...@gmail.com
Apr 23, 2020, 10:59:18 AM4/23/20
to
- Everything in the world may be endured, except continual prosperity.
Goethe
Frank Berger
Apr 23, 2020, 11:09:36 AM4/23/20
to
Which would have been Wuhan, come to think of it. I meant "epicenter"
as in the most important which, checking the dictionary, is an
appropriate use of the word.
smo...@hotmail.com
Apr 23, 2020, 11:45:41 AM4/23/20
to
It’s not that I don’t think it is reasonable that China should pay compensation, but for states to sue China seems unwise: a) the chance of succes is little and b) if China is liable for the way they handled this virus other states can be liable as well. Missouri just invited citizens to sue Missouri... Lawsuits is not the way to handle this, political demands are.
Soeren
Soeren
Bob Harper
Apr 23, 2020, 1:28:35 PM4/23/20
to
On 4/23/20 8:45 AM, smo...@hotmail.com wrote:
> It’s not that I don’t think it is reasonable that China should pay compensation, but for states to sue China seems unwise: a) the chance of succes is little and b) if China is liable for the way they handled this virus other states can be liable as well. Missouri just invited citizens to sue Missouri... Lawsuits is not the way to handle this, political demands are.
>
> Soeren
>
Yes, as satisfying as it might be to see the CCP in the dock. Here's a
> It’s not that I don’t think it is reasonable that China should pay compensation, but for states to sue China seems unwise: a) the chance of succes is little and b) if China is liable for the way they handled this virus other states can be liable as well. Missouri just invited citizens to sue Missouri... Lawsuits is not the way to handle this, political demands are.
>
> Soeren
>
good article about why it's a bad idea:
https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/the-foolish-gop-proposal-to-open-china-to-american-lawsuits-over-covid-19/
Note that this is Andy McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor and a very
straight shooter, writing in National Review, a conservative journal of
opinion.
Bob Harper
Steven Bornfeld
Apr 23, 2020, 5:31:48 PM4/23/20
to
know ours aren't, but I doubt China's are either. There will be plenty
of time for fingerpointing, but now--the priority should be on vetting
the data out there, and we're not even close to being able to do it here.
Steve
Frank Berger
Apr 23, 2020, 7:54:30 PM4/23/20
to
suffering that wouldn't have occurred anyway. I doubt anyone does. But
nothing anybody else did or did not do can compare to the evil of the
Chinese tyrants.
Matthew Silverstein
Apr 23, 2020, 10:34:03 PM4/23/20
to
On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 9:28:35 PM UTC+4, Bob Harper wrote:
> Note that this is Andy McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor and a very
> straight shooter, writing in National Review, a conservative journal of
> opinion.
A straight shooter? Is this the same Andrew McCarthy who repeatedly insisted that Obama was a socialist, argued that the Affordable Care Act would involve death panels, and then wrote a book claiming that Obama embraced sharia law? Straight shooting indeed!
> Note that this is Andy McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor and a very
> straight shooter, writing in National Review, a conservative journal of
> opinion.
Matty
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 23, 2020, 10:36:58 PM4/23/20
to
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 24, 2020, 12:06:33 AM4/24/20
to
On Saturday, April 18, 2020 at 4:58:28 PM UTC-4, kill...@coronavirus.com wrote:
> coronavirus COVID-19
> http://www.grex.org/~henced/coronavirus.html
Us versus them again - he really is a piece of work
> coronavirus COVID-19
> http://www.grex.org/~henced/coronavirus.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-ties-coronavirus-to-democratic-leadership-threatening-aid-012626397.html
Andy Evans
Apr 24, 2020, 5:28:05 AM4/24/20
to
I've been dreaming a lot these days. I just woke up from a really scary dream - the end of lockdown. In the dream I went by rail from London to Manchester for a conference, and checked into a hotel. There were people everywhere around me - a lot of them very close. There was no way to protect myself from being infected. Not far away somebody coughed. Shortly after arriving and booking in at the hotel I couldn't take it any more and went back to the train station to get a train back to London.
Think of it a little - we've lived in an atmosphere of fear. Going out is fearful, shopping is fearful, buses are fearful. Many of the population are now agoraphobic to some degree. The fear of infection isn't going to go away, and for those who are more on the paranoid side, the degree of fear is going to rise as social distancing ends.
It's delusional to think that "because the government has ended lockdown it's now safe to go out and socialise". It just isn't. It's the same virus, it's the same risks for older people, it's the same means of transmission through the air or through surfaces. Nothing has changed about the virus, and it won't change until there is a vaccine. The only thing that is going to happen when lockdown is ended is that the risk of getting infected at some time or another in the coming months will probably be higher rather than lower.
Think of it a little - we've lived in an atmosphere of fear. Going out is fearful, shopping is fearful, buses are fearful. Many of the population are now agoraphobic to some degree. The fear of infection isn't going to go away, and for those who are more on the paranoid side, the degree of fear is going to rise as social distancing ends.
It's delusional to think that "because the government has ended lockdown it's now safe to go out and socialise". It just isn't. It's the same virus, it's the same risks for older people, it's the same means of transmission through the air or through surfaces. Nothing has changed about the virus, and it won't change until there is a vaccine. The only thing that is going to happen when lockdown is ended is that the risk of getting infected at some time or another in the coming months will probably be higher rather than lower.
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 24, 2020, 7:02:45 AM4/24/20
to
Frank Berger
Apr 24, 2020, 10:03:30 AM4/24/20
to
relaxing lockdown measures, is not because anyone thinks the danger of
infection has passed, but because many perceive that the economic impact
has become equally intolerable to the risks of the disease. At some
point, the 80% who will easily recover from Covid-19 will find the
inability to hug their grandchildren or buy toilet paper, flour and
yeast, for example (as I did yesterday at Walmart) to represent an
unacceptable quality of life.
gggg...@gmail.com
Apr 24, 2020, 10:28:43 AM4/24/20
to
On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 7:55:50 AM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
https://news.google.com/search?q=undercounting&hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen
Andy Evans
Apr 24, 2020, 11:14:02 AM4/24/20
to
> Not disagreeing with you really, but I think you've missed the point of
> relaxing lockdown measures, is not because anyone thinks the danger of
> infection has passed, but because many perceive that the economic impact
> has become equally intolerable to the risks of the disease. At some
> point, the 80% who will easily recover from Covid-19 will find the
> inability to hug their grandchildren or buy toilet paper, flour and
> yeast, for example (as I did yesterday at Walmart) to represent an
> unacceptable quality of life.
Yes, a large number of the population what to get out and start living again. But those at significant risk from the virus are going to prioritise self-preservation, which is completely understandable. The end of lockdown will be a lot tougher for this group of people. At age 73 I am a member of the at risk group and there's no way I'm going to stop taking measures designed to preserve my life.
> relaxing lockdown measures, is not because anyone thinks the danger of
> infection has passed, but because many perceive that the economic impact
> has become equally intolerable to the risks of the disease. At some
> point, the 80% who will easily recover from Covid-19 will find the
> inability to hug their grandchildren or buy toilet paper, flour and
> yeast, for example (as I did yesterday at Walmart) to represent an
> unacceptable quality of life.
smo...@hotmail.com
Apr 24, 2020, 11:45:18 AM4/24/20
to
In my country few people under 60 have died: Out of 403 only 11 were under 60, 7 of which had been hospitalized in the last five years with diseases like diabetes, cancer, heart diseases. As of today about 5600 people under 60 have tested positive for covid19, but more relevant is probably that 14 days ago about 4.000 people under 60 had tested positive for covid19, (at a time when relatively few test were done. Most likely many more were infected at the same time). The CFR is thus about 0.1 percent for healthy people under 60 and the IFR is lower - nobody knows if it is 1/5 or 1/50 that number, but it stands to reason that the risk of dying of this disease for healthy people under 60 is a lot different than for people over 80 years with existing health problems. Only 74 people under 60 have so far been in ICU. So healthy people in that age group should take care to distance themselves as not to spread or get the disease, but probably not be that scared to go to the supermarket or get a haircut, if you remember to wash hands, etc., of course also depending on the number of infected people in your area (which can be hard to tell, if there is little testing done).
I know many here are over 60, and the older you get, the more careful you should be. But still most survive here even for people over 90, although the odds are pretty scary for that age group.
Soeren
I know many here are over 60, and the older you get, the more careful you should be. But still most survive here even for people over 90, although the odds are pretty scary for that age group.
Soeren
Frank Berger
Apr 24, 2020, 11:52:18 AM4/24/20
to
all agree we shouldn't cause harm to others (factories causing
pollution, infecting people with coronavirus, e.g.) but we don't agree
what to do about it. Economists propose pricing solutions. The idea is
to tax "polluters" in such a way as to make them bear the costs they
impose on others. Of course, this is theoretical and not always even
doable. I can (barely) imagine a coronavirus pricing scheme. Each
individual would have to purchase the right to leave their home. The
price for such a permit for someone for whom it is determined is not
infectious at all would be zero. If they are immune (assuming antibodies
give you immunity) then there's no issue at all. If they are vulnerable
they can choose what level of risk to assume for themselves, and the
price of the permit internalizes the risk they cause to others. Of
course such a scheme would require widespread and frequent testing. It
is impossible to implement such a thing now and perhaps ever. It could
be that under certain circumstances a complete government imposed
lockdown could be justified on these economic grounds. Imagine a virus
that is the most contagious one ever and which kills everyone who is
infected. Doing nothing would mean the extinction of the human race.
It's hard to imagine anyone favoring doing nothing, but I suppose some
one say extinction is a price worth paying for individual liberty.
Frank Berger
Apr 24, 2020, 12:00:23 PM4/24/20
to
people (like me) are coldly analytical. It's all about costs and
benefits (including non-pecuniary ones). Others will say you can't put
a price on human life and that one death of an 80-year old is too many
(ignoring the fact the 80 year-old's life expectancy wasn't all that
great before the pandemic). When the latter group are asked if they
favor lowering speed limit on the nation's highway to (say) 45 MPH
because it will save lives, you get a blank stare in response.
Bozo
Apr 24, 2020, 12:24:57 PM4/24/20
to
Bozo
Apr 24, 2020, 12:31:49 PM4/24/20
to
>On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 11:24:57 AM UTC-5, Bozo wrote:
> https://tinyurl.com/y7w3ocno (Food supply issues)
https://tinyurl.com/yb6r5fl8 Flag day some day ?
> https://tinyurl.com/y7w3ocno (Food supply issues)
Andy Evans
Apr 24, 2020, 1:03:52 PM4/24/20
to
Frank Berger
Apr 24, 2020, 1:04:16 PM4/24/20
to
Pop-ups make this impossible to read.
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 24, 2020, 1:18:34 PM4/24/20
to
Bob Harper
Apr 24, 2020, 1:22:13 PM4/24/20
to
recommendations, but we cannot expect life to be risk-free. That way
madness lies, and the damage to society from economic collapse will in
time outstrip anything the virus can do. So be prudent, but don't live
(if you can call it that) your life paralyzed by fear.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Apr 24, 2020, 1:24:05 PM4/24/20
to
Bob Harper
uof...@gmail.com
Apr 24, 2020, 2:14:07 PM4/24/20
to
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 11:45:18 AM UTC-4, smo...@hotmail.com wrote:
but probably not be that scared to go to the supermarket or get a haircut, if you remember to wash hands, etc., of course also depending on the number of infected people in your area (which can be hard to tell, if there is little testing done).
>
That's silly, what good can come of washing my hands if my barber touches my face and those of many others during the course of a day? I suppose he needs a mask, sterile disposable gloves( discarded between customers) and the test results of all his customers. (Should I let him know?)
but probably not be that scared to go to the supermarket or get a haircut, if you remember to wash hands, etc., of course also depending on the number of infected people in your area (which can be hard to tell, if there is little testing done).
>
> Soeren
AB
Apr 24, 2020, 2:19:53 PM4/24/20
to
AB
Frank Berger
Apr 24, 2020, 2:25:05 PM4/24/20
to
(probably) long enough to get a haircut. Better yet, find a barber who
had has Covid-19 himself. I can imagine a barber shop (or any other
business) staffed by recovered barbers servicing recovered customers.
At that point the uninfected might become a persecuted minorty.
Frank Berger
Apr 24, 2020, 2:28:46 PM4/24/20
to
a matter of choice. I too believe his remark about injecting antiseptic
(or whatever it was) was stupid and possibly dangerous. I happen to
believe that absolutely no one, even Trump could possibly have meant it
literally, but I guess that's a matter of choice, too. As someone who
uses sarcasm a lot, I am well aware of the dangers of being misunderstood.
smo...@hotmail.com
Apr 24, 2020, 2:59:29 PM4/24/20
to
My barber used alchohol rub several times while cutting my hair - but no mask - and I did wash my hair and face myself afterwards. Nobody except medical staff in hospitals uses masks here. Virus can perhaps spread as aerosols according to scientists, but if it was a regular way of spreading I suppose the dissease would have spread a lot faster instead of going down since the introduction of distancing - many shops have remained open here and a lot of people going to work, even though many have worked from home. People have been going to supermarkets. Some people have been going to Sweden to get haircuts for the past weeks, and there haven’t been reports of a spread that way :-) But of course it is risk, but then there are many risk in life.
Soeren
Soeren
Frank Berger
Apr 24, 2020, 3:10:06 PM4/24/20
to
On 4/24/2020 2:59 PM, smo...@hotmail.com wrote:
> My barber used alchohol rub several times while cutting my hair - but no mask - and I did wash my hair and face myself afterwards. Nobody except medical staff in hospitals uses masks here. Virus can perhaps spread as aerosols according to scientists, but if it was a regular way of spreading I suppose the dissease would have spread a lot faster instead of going down since the introduction of distancing - many shops have remained open here and a lot of people going to work, even though many have worked from home. People have been going to supermarkets. Some people have been going to Sweden to get haircuts for the past weeks, and there haven’t been reports of a spread that way :-) But of course it is risk, but then there are many risk in life.
>
> Soeren
>
Here (Baltimore) the supermarkets won't let you in without a mask. Some
> My barber used alchohol rub several times while cutting my hair - but no mask - and I did wash my hair and face myself afterwards. Nobody except medical staff in hospitals uses masks here. Virus can perhaps spread as aerosols according to scientists, but if it was a regular way of spreading I suppose the dissease would have spread a lot faster instead of going down since the introduction of distancing - many shops have remained open here and a lot of people going to work, even though many have worked from home. People have been going to supermarkets. Some people have been going to Sweden to get haircuts for the past weeks, and there haven’t been reports of a spread that way :-) But of course it is risk, but then there are many risk in life.
>
> Soeren
>
of them will give you a mask as you enter and then charge you for it. I
don't think I need one, given that I am recovered from Covid-19 and
almost certainly neither vulnerable (for a while anyway) nor a danger to
others. But I wear one anyway so as to not be the odd man out.
I watched a YT video about cutting your own hair. I tried it and it
came just as well as my barber does. It's not rocket science.
Oscar
Apr 24, 2020, 3:20:28 PM4/24/20
to
Anecdote:
Last night I went to my favorite local So. Calif. small-chain franchise hamburger eatery. I am well-acquainted with the manager-of-color as he has worked there for many years. He asked how I was hanging in there and I replied 'As well as can be, I suppose. I'm not working—my industry is completely shut-down nationwide—but my significant other is still employed.' He replied that his wife got laid of in February. February?, I inquired. Yes, she was employed by Chinese who ran fertility clinics in L.A. Country, three in all. (Yes, to make anchor babies. I asked. He confirmed.) He told me the boss and other Chinese who worked there were referencing something 'really bad' going on in China as far back as last November without, of course, ever elucidating. After (Western) New Year this chitter-chatter increased and it was clear there was a very bad situation happening in China. The clientele, upward of 70 percent of which were Chinese nationals, dropped off precipitously—before the China travel ban. After the ban, the jig was up and the clinics all closed up like a Western ghost town, but not before trying to get my acquaintance's wife to sign some kind of release, in his words, which she refused to do. Just another story in the naked city.
Last night I went to my favorite local So. Calif. small-chain franchise hamburger eatery. I am well-acquainted with the manager-of-color as he has worked there for many years. He asked how I was hanging in there and I replied 'As well as can be, I suppose. I'm not working—my industry is completely shut-down nationwide—but my significant other is still employed.' He replied that his wife got laid of in February. February?, I inquired. Yes, she was employed by Chinese who ran fertility clinics in L.A. Country, three in all. (Yes, to make anchor babies. I asked. He confirmed.) He told me the boss and other Chinese who worked there were referencing something 'really bad' going on in China as far back as last November without, of course, ever elucidating. After (Western) New Year this chitter-chatter increased and it was clear there was a very bad situation happening in China. The clientele, upward of 70 percent of which were Chinese nationals, dropped off precipitously—before the China travel ban. After the ban, the jig was up and the clinics all closed up like a Western ghost town, but not before trying to get my acquaintance's wife to sign some kind of release, in his words, which she refused to do. Just another story in the naked city.
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 24, 2020, 3:27:47 PM4/24/20
to
Oscar
Apr 24, 2020, 3:32:13 PM4/24/20
to
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 12:20:28 PM, Oscar wrote:
>
> Anecdote:
From Vogue:
<< How California Became the World’s Fertility Treatment Destination
BY Jancee Dunn
March 13, 2019
. . . Aspiring parents from China in particular, spurred by the eradication of the country’s one-child policy, have been making their way to Los Angeles. Three quarters of Agency for Surrogacy Solutions’s patients come from abroad, according to Kathryn Kaycoff, de Brito’s partner, with a large percentage from China. In 2012, the Year of the Dragon in the Chinese Zodiac—an auspicious calendar event associated with luck, strength, and intelligence—the company saw a marked increase in interest from the country. They now work with facilitators in China (where IVF is legal, but surrogacy is not, and egg freezing is prohibited for unmarried women). California is also widely regarded as having a friendly legal environment not just for surrogacy but for the wider world of assisted reproduction. Since 1994, the state’s courts have been establishing case laws that clearly spell out that the intended parents should be considered the baby’s legal parents, according to Richard B. Vaughn, founding partner of International Fertility Law Group. “This easily makes it the state with the most favorable case law in the country,” he continues, detailing the sort of security international couples need to get a baby back into their country of origin. “So in addition to this legal backdrop, and perhaps because of it, there are also more surrogacy and egg donation agencies and more IVF clinics in California than in any other state in the country,” adds Vaughn, who has two children through egg donation and surrogacy with his husband. This being Los Angeles, Vaughn is also a trained fitness instructor. . . >>
https://www.vogue.com/article/california-worlds-fertility-treatment-destination
>
> Anecdote:
From Vogue:
<< How California Became the World’s Fertility Treatment Destination
BY Jancee Dunn
March 13, 2019
. . . Aspiring parents from China in particular, spurred by the eradication of the country’s one-child policy, have been making their way to Los Angeles. Three quarters of Agency for Surrogacy Solutions’s patients come from abroad, according to Kathryn Kaycoff, de Brito’s partner, with a large percentage from China. In 2012, the Year of the Dragon in the Chinese Zodiac—an auspicious calendar event associated with luck, strength, and intelligence—the company saw a marked increase in interest from the country. They now work with facilitators in China (where IVF is legal, but surrogacy is not, and egg freezing is prohibited for unmarried women). California is also widely regarded as having a friendly legal environment not just for surrogacy but for the wider world of assisted reproduction. Since 1994, the state’s courts have been establishing case laws that clearly spell out that the intended parents should be considered the baby’s legal parents, according to Richard B. Vaughn, founding partner of International Fertility Law Group. “This easily makes it the state with the most favorable case law in the country,” he continues, detailing the sort of security international couples need to get a baby back into their country of origin. “So in addition to this legal backdrop, and perhaps because of it, there are also more surrogacy and egg donation agencies and more IVF clinics in California than in any other state in the country,” adds Vaughn, who has two children through egg donation and surrogacy with his husband. This being Los Angeles, Vaughn is also a trained fitness instructor. . . >>
https://www.vogue.com/article/california-worlds-fertility-treatment-destination
Oscar
Apr 24, 2020, 3:37:09 PM4/24/20
to
. . . and now part deux.
From The New York Times:
<< 3 Arrested in Crackdown on Multimillion-Dollar ‘Birth Tourism’ Businesses
By Miriam Jordan
January 31, 2019
Three people who operated multimillion-dollar birth-tourism businesses in Southern California were arrested Thursday in the biggest federal criminal probe ever to target the thriving industry, in which pregnant women come to the United States to give birth so their children will become American citizens.
The businesses coached their clients to deceive United States immigration officials and pay indigent rates at hospitals to deliver their babies, even though many of the clients were wealthy, investigators said. Some Chinese couples were charged as much as $100,000 for a birth-tourism package that included housing, nannies and shopping excursions to Gucci.
A tip sheet for customers, entitled “Strategies to Maximize the Chance of Entry,” recommended stating on a visa application that pregnant mothers intended to stay at the “5-star” hotel, “Trump International Waikiki Beach,” to convince immigration officials that they were well-to-do vacationers, not mothers traveling with the intention of giving birth on American soil, investigators said.
Grand jury indictments unsealed Thursday in Federal District Court in Los Angeles brought the total number of people charged in the schemes to 19, including both business operators and clients. But some of those targeted in the indictments were not presently in the United States, investigators said.
The appeal of bearing an American child, long associated with immigrants who enter the country illegally, has spurred a birth-tourism industry that now caters to people from all over the world.
The industry is growing at a galloping pace, especially among Chinese nationals experiencing uncertainty over their country’s long-term economic prospects, investigators said. The number of businesses in operation is undoubtedly much larger than the three agencies targeted in the latest indictments in the Los Angeles area, said Mark Zito, assistant special agent in charge of Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s Homeland Security Investigations in Los Angeles.
“We are talking about three takedowns in L.A., when there are probably 300,” Mr. Zito said. “We have seen more businesses pop up. It is probably going stronger now than it was in 2015.”
While the agencies charged in the current investigation cater mainly to Chinese parents, Mr. Zito said investigators have also found evidence of Russians heading to the Northeast and Nigerians traveling to Texas for the sole purpose of having American children. The Middle East is also a growing generator of birth tourism, investigators said.
“We are trying to quell this, but it is increasing. Other nations will start taking advantage of this,” Mr. Zito said.
The phenomenon of so-called anchor babies has fueled criticism from advocates of tougher immigration laws who are concerned that foreign adults are using their children to secure permanent residency in the United States and from there, access to public benefits.
The indictments include an array of charges, including visa fraud, wire fraud and identity theft, against owners of the birth-tourism agencies that are accused of enabling thousands of Chinese women to come explicitly to give birth to American children.
“Statements by the operators of these birthing houses show contempt for the United States, while they were luring clients with the power and prestige of U.S. citizenship for their children,” Nick Hanna, United States attorney in Los Angeles, said in a statement. “Some of the wealthy clients of these businesses also showed blatant contempt for the U.S. by ignoring court orders directing them to stay in the country to assist with the investigation, and by skipping out on their unpaid hospital bills.”
There are no official figures for how many babies are delivered to tourists on American soil. The Center for Immigration Studies, a group that supports restricting immigration, puts the number at about 36,000 annually in a 2015 report.
“The fact that we have no idea of the scale of birth tourism is a problem in and of itself,” said Jessica Vaughan, director of policy studies at the center in Washington. “We should not tolerate an entire industry that encourages people to come here for the sole purpose of having a child who leaves with a U.S. passport.”
In recent years, the practice has prompted some lawmakers, who have opposed children of undocumented immigrants automatically becoming citizens, to propose repealing birthright citizenship, which is enshrined in the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.
President Trump last year claimed erroneously that the United States is the “only country in the world” that automatically confers citizenship to anyone born in the country. In fact, it is one of at least 30 countries that do so.
Still, the United States has struggled to rein in birth tourism because it is not unlawful for foreigners who are pregnant to travel to the United States or to have babies in the country.
“Birth tourism is a gray area of the law,” said Ms. Vaughan, who called “at the very least” for a revision of citizenship rights to prevent those who are in the country for only the first few weeks of their lives from retaining citizenship for life.
China, home to a burgeoning moneyed class that includes many who are eager for a foothold in the United States, is the biggest market for the birth-tourism industry. The United States offers educational opportunities for their children and a safe haven down the road in the event of political and economic instability in their home country.
The indictments allege that government officials, doctors and lawyers are among those traveling from China to the United States to have children.
The businesses were dismantled following raids in 2015 by the special agents on several sites where the businesses housed pregnant women, in Los Angeles, San Bernardino and Orange Counties. But it is not clear how long the three birth-tourism agencies had been operating.
Dongyuan Li, a resident of Irvine, Calif., who ran a business called “You Win USA,” is accused in the indictment of renting about 20 units in a luxury apartment complex in Irvine under the names of people who did not occupy them as part of an “illegal international birth tourism scheme.” Clients spent a couple of months there before giving birth and were then replaced with newly arrived pregnant women, the charging document said.
On its website, Ms. Li’s company touted the benefits of having an American child, including a “most attractive nationality;” “priority for jobs in U.S. government, public companies and large corporations;” and the opportunity to immigrate to the United States once that child became an adult and could sponsor a parent for a green card.
The business, which advertised on its website that it had handled 500 births, charged each client $40,000 to $80,000 for a range of services that included coaching on how to respond to questions at a visa interview, fill out forms and disguise the true motive for travel from Customs officers at the airport on arrival, according to the indictment.
One customer is alleged to have falsely stated on a visa application that she would be spending 12 days at the “Trump International Hotel” in Hawaii.
You Win USA recommended that clients flew from China to Hawaii and then connected on a domestic flight to Los Angeles, their final destination, to clear passport control in Honolulu and avoid tougher scrutiny expected from officers in California.
It promised a refund to any customer who was not admitted into the country on arrival, according to the indictment.
The business arranged accommodation, prenatal care and shopping trips for the women. In some cases, the indictment said, it instructed clients to fabricate financial documents to enable them to obtain visa extensions, and it deposited money temporarily in their bank accounts.
Mr. Zito, the special agent, said clients were advised to claim they lacked insurance, which entitled them to pay the indigent rate at whichever hospital they used to deliver their babies.
In some cases, he said, the women returned to China and canceled their credit card to avoid paying even that rate, about $4,000, which is a fraction of what it costs most women in the United States to deliver a baby.
At the same time, he noted, “they would have nannies and buy things at Gucci and Hermes at South Coast Plaza,” a high-end mall in Costa Mesa, Calif., where many shops have Mandarin-speaking attendants to help the numerous Chinese customers.
Ms. Li was arrested on Thursday, along with the operators of USA Happy Baby, another agency associated with birth tourism, according to the indictment: Michael Wei Yueh Liu, of Rancho Cucamonga, Calif., and Jing Dong, of Fontana, Calif.
Another indictment charges Wen Rui Deng, operator of a business based in Los Angeles called Star Baby Care, believed to be the largest birth-tourism operation in the country. There was no arrest in that case because Ms. Deng is believed to be in China, investigators said. >>
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/31/us/anchor-baby-birth-tourism.html
From The New York Times:
<< 3 Arrested in Crackdown on Multimillion-Dollar ‘Birth Tourism’ Businesses
By Miriam Jordan
January 31, 2019
Three people who operated multimillion-dollar birth-tourism businesses in Southern California were arrested Thursday in the biggest federal criminal probe ever to target the thriving industry, in which pregnant women come to the United States to give birth so their children will become American citizens.
The businesses coached their clients to deceive United States immigration officials and pay indigent rates at hospitals to deliver their babies, even though many of the clients were wealthy, investigators said. Some Chinese couples were charged as much as $100,000 for a birth-tourism package that included housing, nannies and shopping excursions to Gucci.
A tip sheet for customers, entitled “Strategies to Maximize the Chance of Entry,” recommended stating on a visa application that pregnant mothers intended to stay at the “5-star” hotel, “Trump International Waikiki Beach,” to convince immigration officials that they were well-to-do vacationers, not mothers traveling with the intention of giving birth on American soil, investigators said.
Grand jury indictments unsealed Thursday in Federal District Court in Los Angeles brought the total number of people charged in the schemes to 19, including both business operators and clients. But some of those targeted in the indictments were not presently in the United States, investigators said.
The appeal of bearing an American child, long associated with immigrants who enter the country illegally, has spurred a birth-tourism industry that now caters to people from all over the world.
The industry is growing at a galloping pace, especially among Chinese nationals experiencing uncertainty over their country’s long-term economic prospects, investigators said. The number of businesses in operation is undoubtedly much larger than the three agencies targeted in the latest indictments in the Los Angeles area, said Mark Zito, assistant special agent in charge of Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s Homeland Security Investigations in Los Angeles.
“We are talking about three takedowns in L.A., when there are probably 300,” Mr. Zito said. “We have seen more businesses pop up. It is probably going stronger now than it was in 2015.”
While the agencies charged in the current investigation cater mainly to Chinese parents, Mr. Zito said investigators have also found evidence of Russians heading to the Northeast and Nigerians traveling to Texas for the sole purpose of having American children. The Middle East is also a growing generator of birth tourism, investigators said.
“We are trying to quell this, but it is increasing. Other nations will start taking advantage of this,” Mr. Zito said.
The phenomenon of so-called anchor babies has fueled criticism from advocates of tougher immigration laws who are concerned that foreign adults are using their children to secure permanent residency in the United States and from there, access to public benefits.
The indictments include an array of charges, including visa fraud, wire fraud and identity theft, against owners of the birth-tourism agencies that are accused of enabling thousands of Chinese women to come explicitly to give birth to American children.
“Statements by the operators of these birthing houses show contempt for the United States, while they were luring clients with the power and prestige of U.S. citizenship for their children,” Nick Hanna, United States attorney in Los Angeles, said in a statement. “Some of the wealthy clients of these businesses also showed blatant contempt for the U.S. by ignoring court orders directing them to stay in the country to assist with the investigation, and by skipping out on their unpaid hospital bills.”
There are no official figures for how many babies are delivered to tourists on American soil. The Center for Immigration Studies, a group that supports restricting immigration, puts the number at about 36,000 annually in a 2015 report.
“The fact that we have no idea of the scale of birth tourism is a problem in and of itself,” said Jessica Vaughan, director of policy studies at the center in Washington. “We should not tolerate an entire industry that encourages people to come here for the sole purpose of having a child who leaves with a U.S. passport.”
In recent years, the practice has prompted some lawmakers, who have opposed children of undocumented immigrants automatically becoming citizens, to propose repealing birthright citizenship, which is enshrined in the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.
President Trump last year claimed erroneously that the United States is the “only country in the world” that automatically confers citizenship to anyone born in the country. In fact, it is one of at least 30 countries that do so.
Still, the United States has struggled to rein in birth tourism because it is not unlawful for foreigners who are pregnant to travel to the United States or to have babies in the country.
“Birth tourism is a gray area of the law,” said Ms. Vaughan, who called “at the very least” for a revision of citizenship rights to prevent those who are in the country for only the first few weeks of their lives from retaining citizenship for life.
China, home to a burgeoning moneyed class that includes many who are eager for a foothold in the United States, is the biggest market for the birth-tourism industry. The United States offers educational opportunities for their children and a safe haven down the road in the event of political and economic instability in their home country.
The indictments allege that government officials, doctors and lawyers are among those traveling from China to the United States to have children.
The businesses were dismantled following raids in 2015 by the special agents on several sites where the businesses housed pregnant women, in Los Angeles, San Bernardino and Orange Counties. But it is not clear how long the three birth-tourism agencies had been operating.
Dongyuan Li, a resident of Irvine, Calif., who ran a business called “You Win USA,” is accused in the indictment of renting about 20 units in a luxury apartment complex in Irvine under the names of people who did not occupy them as part of an “illegal international birth tourism scheme.” Clients spent a couple of months there before giving birth and were then replaced with newly arrived pregnant women, the charging document said.
On its website, Ms. Li’s company touted the benefits of having an American child, including a “most attractive nationality;” “priority for jobs in U.S. government, public companies and large corporations;” and the opportunity to immigrate to the United States once that child became an adult and could sponsor a parent for a green card.
The business, which advertised on its website that it had handled 500 births, charged each client $40,000 to $80,000 for a range of services that included coaching on how to respond to questions at a visa interview, fill out forms and disguise the true motive for travel from Customs officers at the airport on arrival, according to the indictment.
One customer is alleged to have falsely stated on a visa application that she would be spending 12 days at the “Trump International Hotel” in Hawaii.
You Win USA recommended that clients flew from China to Hawaii and then connected on a domestic flight to Los Angeles, their final destination, to clear passport control in Honolulu and avoid tougher scrutiny expected from officers in California.
It promised a refund to any customer who was not admitted into the country on arrival, according to the indictment.
The business arranged accommodation, prenatal care and shopping trips for the women. In some cases, the indictment said, it instructed clients to fabricate financial documents to enable them to obtain visa extensions, and it deposited money temporarily in their bank accounts.
Mr. Zito, the special agent, said clients were advised to claim they lacked insurance, which entitled them to pay the indigent rate at whichever hospital they used to deliver their babies.
In some cases, he said, the women returned to China and canceled their credit card to avoid paying even that rate, about $4,000, which is a fraction of what it costs most women in the United States to deliver a baby.
At the same time, he noted, “they would have nannies and buy things at Gucci and Hermes at South Coast Plaza,” a high-end mall in Costa Mesa, Calif., where many shops have Mandarin-speaking attendants to help the numerous Chinese customers.
Ms. Li was arrested on Thursday, along with the operators of USA Happy Baby, another agency associated with birth tourism, according to the indictment: Michael Wei Yueh Liu, of Rancho Cucamonga, Calif., and Jing Dong, of Fontana, Calif.
Another indictment charges Wen Rui Deng, operator of a business based in Los Angeles called Star Baby Care, believed to be the largest birth-tourism operation in the country. There was no arrest in that case because Ms. Deng is believed to be in China, investigators said. >>
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/31/us/anchor-baby-birth-tourism.html
gggg...@gmail.com
Apr 24, 2020, 3:58:12 PM4/24/20
to
>
> - Everything in the world may be endured, except continual prosperity.
>
> Goethe
Also, notions of 'progress' are making things worse.
Isn't the modern world facilitating the spread of communicable diseases?:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericrosen/2018/10/11/worlds-new-longest-flight-from-singapore-to-newark-launches-today/#5a29e5ed2aca
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=bks&ei=SiKjXsT7K4P8-gS4waHIBw&q=%22With+nothing+faster+than+a+horse%2C+the+carrier+fleas+spread+across+three+continents+in+no+time+at+all.%22%22&oq=%22With+nothing+faster+than+a+horse%2C+the+carrier+fleas+spread+across+three+continents+in+no+time+at+all.%22%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...11247.11247.0.13774.1.1.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.0.0....0.DzFR1uv11KU
Click here to Reply
gggg...@gmail.com
Apr 24, 2020, 4:11:18 PM4/24/20
to
On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 7:55:50 AM UTC-7, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 10:25:10 PM UTC-7, Bob Harper wrote:
> > On 4/22/20 4:48 PM, Raymond Hall wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 23 April 2020 06:37:43 UTC+10, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I don't think that "these discussions" are meaningless, so I participate
> > >>>> in them. You do think they are meaningless but participate anyway. One
> > >>>> of us is ill.
> > >>>
> > >>> That must be the one who thinks that these discussions have any meaning.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> This is one of those instances that I agree totally with Frank. The
> > >> statistics out of China are almost impossible for me (in any case) to
> > >> view as credible...
>
> Many countries are probably under reporting their statistics because they don't want to be perceived as being the cause of a global pandemic.
>
> They are under reporting so that they can avoid this:
>
> https://www.npr.org/2020/04/23/842195529/missouri-sues-china-for-its-handling-of-covid-19-outbreak
https://news.google.com/search?q=suing%20china&hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 10:25:10 PM UTC-7, Bob Harper wrote:
> > On 4/22/20 4:48 PM, Raymond Hall wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 23 April 2020 06:37:43 UTC+10, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I don't think that "these discussions" are meaningless, so I participate
> > >>>> in them. You do think they are meaningless but participate anyway. One
> > >>>> of us is ill.
> > >>>
> > >>> That must be the one who thinks that these discussions have any meaning.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> This is one of those instances that I agree totally with Frank. The
> > >> statistics out of China are almost impossible for me (in any case) to
> > >> view as credible...
>
> Many countries are probably under reporting their statistics because they don't want to be perceived as being the cause of a global pandemic.
>
> They are under reporting so that they can avoid this:
>
> https://www.npr.org/2020/04/23/842195529/missouri-sues-china-for-its-handling-of-covid-19-outbreak
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 24, 2020, 4:51:17 PM4/24/20
to
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 2:28:46 PM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
Frank Berger
Apr 24, 2020, 6:49:18 PM4/24/20
to
the more effective it is; the more upset those who don't get the sarcasm
will get, which is one of the purposse of using sarcasm in the first
place.
Frank Berger
Apr 24, 2020, 6:51:21 PM4/24/20
to
Frank Berger
Apr 24, 2020, 6:53:20 PM4/24/20
to
which he already held contempt is a wasted second. Why not spend time
working for the DNC instead?
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 24, 2020, 7:19:06 PM4/24/20
to
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 24, 2020, 7:21:02 PM4/24/20
to
RANDY WOLFGANG
Apr 24, 2020, 7:23:59 PM4/24/20
to
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