Non-HIP Mozart symphonies: Böhm or Levine?

[Brian Burtt]

What are the relative merits of these two sets?

[wkasimer]

I've only heard BOhm in the late symphonies, but I found him deadly dull and utterly charmless. What I've heard of the Levine has a lot more energy.

[Terry]

On Monday, 24 August 2015 18:25:47 UTC+10, Brian Burtt wrote:
> What are the relative merits of these two sets?

Is Mackerras (with the Prague Chamber Orchestra, on Telarc) too HIP for you? If not, you might prefer it to either.

[Bob Harper]

Or try this:
http://tinyurl.com/psb7ovj
(Suitner, SD in 28-41)

Bob Harper

[Randy Lane]

On Monday, August 24, 2015 at 1:25:47 AM UTC-7, Brian Burtt wrote:
> What are the relative merits of these two sets?

First of all, referencing the Levine set as Non-HIP means that for you HIP means specifically Period Instruments, and a performance that uses, or approximates, period forces in terms of the number of musicians is acceptable.

Given that, I find it hard to lump Böhm and Levine into the same bucket, because Levine is somewhat (but not obsessively) in the period-forces camp, whereas Böhm is all Big Orchestra Mozart.

I actually like Levine's VPO cycle more than most, at least most when they were issue 25 years ago. I think tastes have changed enough and the cycle would be more warmly received if it were "new" today and subject to the scrutiny it received when first issued.

For period forces I would recommend Marriner/Decca(Philips) before Levine, but only marginally. As suggested by someone else Mackerras is another choice.

But if it has to be full Big Orchestra Mozart, then I think Böhm is your only choice if you want all of the symphonies in one box. I know of no other such set except perhaps Leinsdorf/RPO, which has all of the numbered symphonies.

[John Wiser]

"Randy Lane" <randy...@gmail.com> wrote :
[snip]

> But if it has to be full Big Orchestra Mozart, then I think Böhm is your only choice if you want
> all of the
> symphonies in one box. I know of no other such set except perhaps Leinsdorf/RPO, which has all of
> the
> numbered symphonies.

It doesn't matter that both sets contain
many long stretches of, um, indifferent execution?

jdw

[Brian Burtt]

I'm certainly open to other possibilities. I wasn't, for instance, aware of Leinsdorf, (Which sounds intriguing, but from a quick Google search, not readily available?) And, lo!, the recommended Mackerras is sitting unopened on my shelf. So I'll have to give that a spin.

[Norman Schwartz]

Brian Burtt wrote:
> What are the relative merits of these two sets?

I'd rather go with Marriner than with any of those mentioned. Although
contained in Vol. 1 of Philips' Complete Mozart Edition, it has become
rather pricey. I have the symphonies in 3 MHS CD boxes (early, middle and
late symphonies) but I'm not sure if all are the same performances as found
in the CME. (e..g. there's a mix of Argo and Philips ADD, DDD performaces
within the MHS sets. I have some of the Bohm and Levine Mozart Symphonies
and have always believed Levine's recordings being somewhat variable, most
likely a consequence of the engineering. Some of the Symphonies are very
closely miked, others are more distant. I wouldn't even believe that the
recordings were made within the same venue, but they were. One, but perhaps
trivial and/or false impression, is that the close recordings are more
'exciting' and consequently more attractive (to my ears).

[Ray Hall]

Randy Lane wrote:
> On Monday, August 24, 2015 at 1:25:47 AM UTC-7, Brian Burtt wrote:
>> What are the relative merits of these two sets?
>

I cannot say about Levine, but I have the 4 composer symphony box with
Bohm, and for the Mozart Bohm has the BPO playing like a dream. Big band
Mozart for sure, but I'm enjoying it immensely.

Ray Hall, Taree

[gggg...@gmail.com]

Concerning Leinsdorf and Bohm, the following may be of interest:

- Erich Leinsdorf (# 41 - Boston Symphony, 1964, RCA LP) Erich Leinsdorf conducts the Mozart Jupiter Symphony (RCA LP cover)- The Boston Symphony billed itself as the "Aristocrat of Orchestras," yet its Jupiter, while indeed quite noble, has none of the indifference or lethargy that such a label might suggest. Rather, Leinsdorf achieves a fine balance of weightiness and propulsion in which the sonority of the modern orchestra, with a rich, luxuriant, smooth sonority heavily favoring the strings, is offset by sharp detail, lovely balances and buoyant execution throughout its nearly 40 minutes. The andante is especially poignant and emotionally involving, perhaps because its presentation speaks in an idiom with which we are familiar. (And to show that the design is intentional, the LP companion was a considerably lighter Eine Kleine Nachtmusik.) Despite the horrendously inappropriate rococo cover art, Leinsdorf and his Boston forces clearly view the Jupiter as a herald of the weighty symphonic statements of the next generation and implicitly raise the fascinating question of what Mozart, on the verge of rounding the corner to the next century, might have achieved had he lived to a more natural age and what his impact might have been on the course of Western music as we now know it.

- Karl Bohm (all - Berlin Philharmonic, 1961-6, DG) Karl Bohm and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra play the last two Mozart Symphonies (DG LP cover)- This, too, is solid, sturdy "big band" Mozart without a hint of period style or personality. While that may sound disparaging, on the contrary it's fully respectful of the composer, beautifully played without any elements to distract us from the glorious music.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics/mozartsyms.html

[Herman]

On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 4:17:16 AM UTC+2, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:


> - Karl Bohm (all - Berlin Philharmonic, 1961-6, DG) Karl Bohm and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra play the last two Mozart Symphonies (DG LP cover)- This, too, is solid, sturdy "big band" Mozart without a hint of period style or personality. While that may sound disparaging, on the contrary it's fully respectful of the composer, beautifully played without any elements to distract us from the glorious music.
>

just try to make sense of that last sentence.

[Johannes Roehl]

I have not heard any of them in the early symphonies (and always recall that about 3/4 of Mozart's symphonies are early pieces by a teenager) but from some late symphonies I could never really understand the reputation Boehm's Mozart recordings have acquired. (He has some very good opera recordings to his credit but I find almost all of his studio recordings of instrumental music I have heard (which are admittedly not so many) before Brahms rather dull, especially because usually there are so many readily available alternatives, not for early Mozart, though).

With Levine I also have only heard a couple of late symphonies. They are more energetic but also very "massive", probably not what I would want for #1-31. I think Klemperer is great in some of them (e.g. 25 and 31 "Paris")but of course one only gets 25 and 29 of the earlier ones.

Frankly, I do not care all that much about the first 24 symphonies but from what I remember of LPs, Marriner is lively and fresh in the early pieces, so if one can get those separately. The Prague/Mackerras is probably in a similar vein.

[gggg...@gmail.com]

More on Bohm:

- These performances, led by the Austrian Karl Böhm, have all the colors of a big modern orchestra and the agility of the small ones prevalent in Mozart's time. Lately much effort has been expended by music historians trying to re-create exactly the instruments, orchestral configurations, and tempi that Mozart and his peers would have used. Hearing these modern renditions, which have that aristocratic high-classical precision but also a brisk dancing-in-the-streets animation, you wonder if academics make too much of the niggling details. When executed with the instinctive feeling Böhm engenders throughout the rapt and responsive Vienna Philharmonic here, Mozart's intentions seem not only honored, but furthered.

http://www.1000recordings.com/music/mozart-late-symphonies/

[Herman]

more bullshit. This is just sales talk.

I like the Bohm / BPO fine. The Bohm / VPO (which were among the first LPs of this repertoire I had) is way too sluggish; all vitality and quirkiness has been leached from the music and some form of autumnal whistfulness is put in its place. That's not "furthering" Mozart's intentions, in so far as we even know what these were. Chances are that's countering those intentions. It's beautiful luxurious playing allright, but that's not necessarily what these works are about.

[Herman]

Prompted by the discussion of Mozart's Violin Ctos a couple weeks ago, I listened to the Abbado Mozart box with the Mozart Orchestra.

As I recall Hurwitz praised Abbado's violin concertos with Carmignola and blasted the symphonies in this box (among other things, the orchestra would have been not up to the challenge).

The funny thing is I feel quite the other way around. I think the seven symphonies in the box (29, 33, 35, 38, 39, 40 & 41) are just terrific in their urgency and darkness, particularly the Jupiter.

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

Il giorno martedì 25 agosto 2015 11:29:41 UTC+2, Herman ha scritto:

> I like the Bohm / BPO fine.

Pity the Ackermann series isn't quite complete. They have all the warmth, life and natural musicality to bring even the earliest symphonies to life. Second-rate orchestras, rough mono recording notwithstanding. Most can be downloaded free from Rene Gagnaux's site, so worth having to supplement Bohm, Leinsdorf, Levine or whomever.
But to think that Walter legge could have had Ackermann record them all with the Philharmonia ....

[Herman]

On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 12:20:35 PM UTC+2, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Sunday, August 23, 2015 at 10:25:47 PM UTC-10, Brian Burtt wrote:
> > What are the relative merits of these two sets?
>

> According to an Amazon customer:
>
> - ...[Bohm] has a tension and expectancy that Levine-in-Vienna lacks.

well, golly gee

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, August 23, 2015 at 10:25:47 PM UTC-10, Brian Burtt wrote:

> What are the relative merits of these two sets?

According to an Amazon customer:

- ...[Bohm/BPO] has a tension and expectancy that Levine-in-Vienna lacks.

[Dan Fowler]

I haven't heard the Levine, and don't listen to the Bohm recordings often,
listening more frequently to the concerto recordings. My favorite sets
remain the Mackerras/Prague set, the Mackerras/SNO recordings, and the
(HIP) Hogwood recordings. I do enjoy the Krips/RCO set a lot, preferring it
to the Bohm. And, less often, I also enjoy listening to The recordings by
Bernstein and Szell. I think I would take them over the Bohm as well.

Dan

[Ricardo Jimenez]

On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 01:41:33 -0700 (PDT), Johannes Roehl
<parr...@web.de> wrote:

>I have not heard any of them in the early symphonies (and always recall that about 3/4 of Mozart's symphonies are early pieces by a teenager) but from some late symphonies I could never really understand the reputation Boehm's Mozart recordings have acquired. (He has some very good opera recordings to his credit but I find almost all of his studio recordings of instrumental music I have heard (which are admittedly not so many) before Brahms rather dull, especially because usually there are so many readily available alternatives, not for early Mozart, though).
>

Have you heard Böhm in Haydn's Die Jahreseiten? For me, it bests the
HIP competition.

[Gerard]

"Dan Fowler" wrote in message
news:191810655462200974.1499...@news.newsguy.com...

=================================

Some of them mentioned sets I like, sometimes (Bohm and Levine not so much),
but not all are complete.
Like Marriner, Krips, and Klemperer (very different). Or Abbado. I don't
care for the incomplete sets by Bernstein or Karajan or Walter.
There's another complete set by Tate, but very special it is not.
I think Marriner's set is worth a first recommendation if a complete set
(non-HIP) is required, next to the set by Mackerras.

Barenboim has recorded quite a few. Once I had those on LP. They seem to be
available on CD:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Symphonies-29-31-33-Prague/dp/B000EMSPME/
and
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Symphonies-Haffner-Linz-Jupiter/dp/B000EMSPMO/

[O]

In article <c4438$55dc8227$546845b9$20...@news.ziggo.nl>, Gerard

There's also the voxbox set for the value minded, though I'm not sure
if it's considered HIP or not.

-Owen

[Terry]

Didn't the OP want a complete set of the symphonies?

[Terry]

Please let us know what you think of it.

[Terry]

A virtuoso cut-and-paste. Well done!

[Norman Schwartz]

I have Bohm's/BPhil ## 35 to 41 on DG'S 2D 'The Originals' release. I hear
them as being so bland as to be devoid of any character. Perhaps the only
positive thing I can admire is that the BP seemingly plays with precision.
However it might just as well have been played by robots following the
score. I hear bupkes to enjoy and additonally I find pinched, nasal sounding
oboe characteristic of certain German orchestras in that era to draw certain
attention to itself and sounds unpleasant.

> Ray Hall, Taree

[Bob Harper]

I suppose so, but except for the lack of #25, the Suitner set has
everything that's important.

Bob Harper (ducking)

[Randy Lane]

Another bargain is this box with Harnoncourt's RCO recordings of the late symphonies.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000AOVKH8/

Worth the small just for the Harnoncourt recordings

[Gerard]

"Randy Lane" wrote in message
news:3c678c67-646e-4f03...@googlegroups.com...

=================

The early symphonies are there to find very cheaply too:
http://www.amazon.com/Conducts-Mozarts-Symphonies-HARNONCOURT-CONCENTUS/dp/B00GZHRDHA/

But ... Harnoncourt is not non-HIP.

[jrsnfld]

The important thing about the Suitner recordings is that they are very, very good.

Other great, overlooked Mozart symphony recordings include obvious choices from Walter, Klemperer, and Szell, but also less well remembered recordings by Schuricht, Beecham, Mravinsky, Furtwangler, and Koussevitzky. These are too good to sound "dated."

--Jeff

[Al Eisner]

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015, Norman Schwartz wrote:

> Brian Burtt wrote:
>> What are the relative merits of these two sets?
>
> I'd rather go with Marriner than with any of those mentioned. Although
> contained in Vol. 1 of Philips' Complete Mozart Edition, it has become
> rather pricey.

Amazon marketplace has "used - very good" copies of the early
symphonies from the Philips edition for $10.96 and of the later
symphonies for $28.65 (plus shipping, each set 6 CD's).
--
Al Eisner

[Oscar]

On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 1:46:49 PM, Al Eisner wrote:
> >
> > I'd rather go with Marriner than with any of those mentioned. Although
> > contained in Vol. 1 of Philips' Complete Mozart Edition, it has become
> > rather pricey.
>
> Amazon marketplace has "used - very good" copies of the early
> symphonies from the Philips edition for $10.96 and of the later
> symphonies for $28.65 (plus shipping, each set 6 CD's).

Al, would you or Jeff or Norman or anyone care to comment on Marriner's later EMI set of later Mozart Symphonies, issued on 6 CD's (IIRC) in the late 80's in time for the 1991 anniversary year? How do they fare in comparison. I agree, btw, Marriner's Philips set, along with another set on Philips by Josef Krips, are two of my favorite Mozart Symphony cycles.

[Bob Harper]

On 8/25/15 1:41 PM, jrsnfld wrote:
(snip)

> The important thing about the Suitner recordings is that they are
> very, very good.

Agreed. That's why I mentioned them. I've yet to hear a performance of
his without something to recommend it (I've not heard the Denon digital
Beethoven). The Dvorak's outstanding, the Bruckner 1/8 as well, and the
disc of Mozart Overtures is just about perfect.

Bob Harper
(snip)

[MELMOTH]

Ce cher mammifère du nom de Brian Burtt nous susurrait, le lundi
24/08/2015, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales tout
de même, et dans le message
<0618288a-d1da-4eed...@googlegroups.com>, les doux
mélismes suivants :

> What are the relative merits of these two sets?

None of them...

--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin ; et celui qui
accroît sa science accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
MELMOTH - souffrant

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 10:41:35 AM UTC-10, jrsnfld wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 25, 2015 at 1:13:56 PM UTC-7, Bob Harper wrote:
> > On 8/25/15 9:23 AM, Terry wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, 25 August 2015 02:08:44 UTC+10, Bob Harper wrote:
> > >> On 8/24/15 8:42 AM, Terry wrote:
> > >>> On Monday, 24 August 2015 18:25:47 UTC+10, Brian Burtt wrote:
> > >>>> What are the relative merits of these two sets?
> > >>>
> > >>> Is Mackerras (with the Prague Chamber Orchestra, on Telarc) too HIP
> > >>> for you? If not, you might prefer it to either.
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> Or try this:
> > >> http://tinyurl.com/psb7ovj
> > >> (Suitner, SD in 28-41)
> > >>
> > >> Bob Harper
> > >
> > > Didn't the OP want a complete set of the symphonies?
> > >
> > I suppose so, but except for the lack of #25, the Suitner set has
> > everything that's important.
> >
> > Bob Harper (ducking)
>
> The important thing about the Suitner recordings is that they are very, very good.

Didn't Suitner also conduct a complete studio recording of MARRIAGE OF FIGARO sung in German which appeared on the Seraphim label in the U.S. and which received a lot of praise for the conducting?

[George P]

Yes! Krips is where it's at for this category.

George P

[jrsnfld]

I've only heard excerpts, but it's typically superb as Suitner's Mozart goes. So is the singing, actually. The German translation is not at all difficult to swallow in the recitative or in the arias, as I thought it would be. Have you heard Suitner's Cosi? I have not, but it doesn't get such favorable reviews as Suitner's Figaro or the Magic Flute.

--Jeff

[Diplomat]

On Monday, 24 August 2015 01:25:47 UTC-7, Brian Burtt wrote:
> What are the relative merits of these two sets?

With the caveat that I have not heard the entirety of either set, I would have to say that it probably comes down to whether you prefer Berlin or Vienna. Needless to say, these orchestras can play Mozart in their sleep. Unfortunately, it sometimes sounds as if that's exactly what they did.

FWIW, the Mozart I listen to most often these days is Maag's set on Arts Music (which includes only the final 10 symphonies). A student of Furtwangler who is also influenced by historical practice, Maag brings more heft than the typical HIP approach but also livelier tempos and phrasing than most big band Mozart. There's something almost a bit raw to these recordings, which works very much to the advantage of such well-worn scores. Very under-rated, IMO. I also like Mackerras set of 38-41 with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra.

[jrsnfld]

I like Krips too. I sampled Marriner's EMI set (from the library and from YT), and it's quite good. The style is not much different than the Philips set, as far as I can tell. Superb sound, great orchestral playing and balance. Stylish. My usual complaint about Marriner having no sense of phrasing seems to be no issue here in this Mozart. Oh, maybe he steamrolled through No. 25 a bit, but it's a fine Jupiter, a good Linz.

While I've never been a Marriner fan, what about Jeffrey Tate? Another conductor I don't follow, but his Mozart seems just as worthy...is he back-of-the-pack in the old-fashioned Compleat Mozart derby?

-Jeff (turning the clock back to Maag, Bour, Blomstedt, Britten, Casals, and other worthy Mozart symphony masters)

[Norman Schwartz]

IIRC at least one of EMI Marriner Mozart recordings received a cool
reception in RMCR, said to have been made simply because it was all digital,
ASIN: B000TEKCSC.
Perhaps the available samples might suffice in allowing a judgment of its
merit?
I have as a Redline budget release plus at least one other EMI disc of
various Mozart Symphonies. I recall thinking they were more than just
decent, but perhaps not as good as those in their Philips release.
Back when it forst appeared Simon Roberts voiced his opinion which should
appear in the archives.

AmazonUK shows Philips' Complete Mozart Edition Vol.1 Symphonies Complete in
an Eloquence release. It seems to be readily available and not so very
expensive, ASIN: B005J6Q8E2.
(This Eloquence release, like others boasts 'AMSI' mastering.)

[Willem Orange]

Its a wonderful set (the Figaro) with a very strong cast. It sounds like an ensemble rather than singers doing star turns. I had it on Seraphim also (with translation) and have it now on Berlin Classics CDs

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

Il giorno mercoledì 26 agosto 2015 20:10:18 UTC+2, Diplomat ha scritto:

> FWIW, the Mozart I listen to most often these days is Maag's set on Arts Music (which includes only the final 10 symphonies).

The Maag set is taken from a complete cycle of all the symphonies Maag conducted for RAI in the Mozart year, so theoretically the remaining symphonies could be issued

[Gerard]

"jrsnfld" wrote in message
news:0539a06c-f0df-42d7...@googlegroups.com...

While I've never been a Marriner fan, what about Jeffrey Tate? Another
conductor I don't follow, but his Mozart seems just as worthy...is he
back-of-the-pack in the old-fashioned Compleat Mozart derby?

======================

What I wrote before in this thread:

There's another complete set by Tate, but very special it is not.

I'ld prefer Marriner any time. Specially his recordings for Philips (the EMI
recordings are OK, I should listen again, maybe - but I'm sure that I liked
the Philips recordings better, for performance and for sound.

[Gerard]

"Norman Schwartz" wrote in message news:8SnDx.27593$FB7....@fx20.iad...

IIRC at least one of EMI Marriner Mozart recordings received a cool
reception in RMCR, said to have been made simply because it was all digital,
ASIN: B000TEKCSC.
Perhaps the available samples might suffice in allowing a judgment of its
merit?
I have as a Redline budget release plus at least one other EMI disc of
various Mozart Symphonies. I recall thinking they were more than just
decent, but perhaps not as good as those in their Philips release.

================

That's my opinion too: the EMI not as good as the Philips recordings.

[Al Eisner]

Sorry, not me (but I see you have other more informative responses).
I can't recall ever having heard anything from that later set (although
it's possible I've heard some on the radio, if the announcers didn't
differentiate). Speaking of second efforts, I am rather taken with
the Mackerras recordings on Linn, a subset of the later symphonies
only. I'm not all that interested in the earlier Mozart symphonies,
before about #25, but the price (used) on the Philips Marriner set
may be right!
--
Al Eisner

[jrsnfld]

On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 1:29:25 PM UTC-7, Gerard wrote:
> "Norman Schwartz" wrote

>
> IIRC at least one of EMI Marriner Mozart recordings received a cool
> reception in RMCR, said to have been made simply because it was all digital,
> ASIN: B000TEKCSC.
> Perhaps the available samples might suffice in allowing a judgment of its
> merit?
> I have as a Redline budget release plus at least one other EMI disc of
> various Mozart Symphonies. I recall thinking they were more than just
> decent, but perhaps not as good as those in their Philips release.
>
> ================
>
> That's my opinion too: the EMI not as good as the Philips recordings.

What's the main difference?

--Jeff

[jrsnfld]

On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 1:29:24 PM UTC-7, Gerard wrote:
> "jrsnfld" wrote

>
>
> While I've never been a Marriner fan, what about Jeffrey Tate? Another
> conductor I don't follow, but his Mozart seems just as worthy...is he
> back-of-the-pack in the old-fashioned Compleat Mozart derby?
>
> ======================
>
> What I wrote before in this thread:
> There's another complete set by Tate, but very special it is not.

I just listened to Tate's No. 40 and I'm not sure I'd prefer Marriner. Marriner's got nice style, maybe more clarity and discipline, but the ECO is perfectly fine for Tate and the conducting has a gravitas that at least makes me feel iike the music is going somewhere. The first movement has good momentum--a sort of dramatic arc that Marriner doesn't usually find. Then again, I can imagine why Tate might sound less alert in the earlier symphonies.

Just popped a random Maag/Padova disc into the player, however, and about 45 seconds into No. 38 I'm already wondering why anyone would bother with Marriner or Tate in anything. He wrings more color and character out of everything. The music just acquired another dimension--voices are talking, singing, arguing. It's fun again.

The orchestra isn't quite ASMF, but it's still quite good.

--Jeff

[jrsnfld]

Inspired choice! Perhaps someone will share off-air recordings of it if it's not issued commercially.

--Jeff

[richard...@gmail.com]

I have the Maag set and it is well done. There are also earlier recordings of Mozart symphonies that Maag made for Decca with the Suisse Romande and the LSO. Most of them seem to be available on Eloquence from German and Australian releases. Although much older recordings my impression is that the sound is clearer then the ARTS set.

[Bob Harper]

Maag's 32 and 38 (LSO/Decca) are amojng the greatest ever made.

http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Sym-No-Ser-Notturna/dp/B000GH38Y2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1440648599&sr=8-2&keywords=maag+mozart

and

http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Sym-No-German-Dances/dp/B000IOM21S/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1440648599&sr=8-5&keywords=maag+mozart

Bob Harper

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

Il giorno giovedì 27 agosto 2015 00:10:40 UTC+2, jrsnfld ha scritto:

> >
> > The Maag set is taken from a complete cycle of all the symphonies Maag conducted for RAI in the Mozart year, so theoretically the remaining symphonies could be issued
>
> Inspired choice! Perhaps someone will share off-air recordings of it if it's not issued commercially.
>
> --Jeff

Just a clarification. The Music Arts set of the "late symphonies" is with the Padua band and so not from the RAI cycle.

Arts Archive have issued symphonies 25 & 29 plus the Sinfonia Concertante from the RAI Roma cycle (and have also issued 4 Mozart operas - I can vouch for Figaro as terrific - and much other Maag from RAI).

I understand that RAI are happy to negotiate with recording companies over the release of their material but don't sell their treasures cheaply. Given the current state of classical music sales the chances of an official release of the cycle don't seem high.

Additionally, Maag could be erratic and disappointing. A Haffner Serenade I attended in Milan in the late 1970s (presumably RAI have this too) struck me as over-frothy with some very strange accelerandos and rallentandos in the minuet. Even so, I'd be curious to hear it again.

[richard...@gmail.com]

I agree, and have them still on LP.

[Gerard]

"jrsnfld" wrote in message
news:a5bbc9f3-5d5f-4db5...@googlegroups.com...

==============

I really should relisten to be able to say something of more worth than
this:
OTTOMH on the EMI recordings it sounds a little more 'mechanical' and
routinely.
So I didn't say this already ;-)

Once I've compared a few movements, and this is what I recall.
The Philips recordings were older, but more lively and inspired, the sound
was nicer.
But I don't have all Philips recordings.
I also had some of those recordings on Argo LPs. The sound on the Philips
recordings was smoother, on the Argo more detailed, crunchy. The EMI
recordings sounded "average", OK, but no more.
(This is all from memory based on listening a long time ago.)

[jrsnfld]

On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 10:57:44 PM UTC-7, chriskh...@gmail.com wrote:
> Il giorno giovedì 27 agosto 2015 00:10:40 UTC+2, jrsnfld ha scritto:
>
> > >
> > > The Maag set is taken from a complete cycle of all the symphonies Maag conducted for RAI in the Mozart year, so theoretically the remaining symphonies could be issued
> >
> > Inspired choice! Perhaps someone will share off-air recordings of it if it's not issued commercially.
> >
> > --Jeff
>
> Just a clarification. The Music Arts set of the "late symphonies" is with the Padua band and so not from the RAI cycle.

Thanks for the clarification...I did get confused there. The Padua group seems very well groomed by (for) Maag.

>
> Arts Archive have issued symphonies 25 & 29 plus the Sinfonia Concertante from the RAI Roma cycle (and have also issued 4 Mozart operas - I can vouch for Figaro as terrific - and much other Maag from RAI).

I'm very interested in that Figaro and the Cosi which people complain is not complete, but whatever.

>
> I understand that RAI are happy to negotiate with recording companies over the release of their material but don't sell their treasures cheaply. Given the current state of classical music sales the chances of an official release of the cycle don't seem high.
>
> Additionally, Maag could be erratic and disappointing. A Haffner Serenade I attended in Milan in the late 1970s (presumably RAI have this too) struck me as over-frothy with some very strange accelerandos and rallentandos in the minuet. Even so, I'd be curious to hear it again.

There's an Act 2 from Tristan on YT, I think maybe from Bologna in 1980...Maag's conducting seems superb--interesting textures, passionate, dramatically right on--and the singing is just fine, although the sound quality is only so-so--perhaps I'm imagining things. Have you heard it? Has that been released on a CD anywhere?

Also on YT there are excerpts from an Il Trovatore with Ricciarelli, Cossotto and Milnes from Turin. Again, there is much evidence in that of Maag's greatness in the opera house. I'm willing to forgive some inconsistency!

--Jeff

[jrsnfld]

On Thursday, August 27, 2015 at 1:38:44 AM UTC-7, Gerard wrote:
> "jrsnfld" wrote in message

What do you think about the Graf set? Maybe he's unjustly forgotten in this thread.

The bits of Graf's set that I've heard are uniformly excellent. The speeds are perhaps too quick for some people, but the style, the sound, and the quality of the playing are very satisfying.

Where Graf has the edge over Marriner is in keeping the arc of the music leaning forward without losing the lovely individual phrases. He's near ideal in this regard: the music sings very naturally. Marriner often seems to think the music has to keep to a schedule and that one appointment is no more important or different than the next.

--Jeff

[Gerard]

"jrsnfld" wrote in message
news:140ba915-c5eb-44ce...@googlegroups.com...

What do you think about the Graf set? Maybe he's unjustly forgotten in this
thread.

The bits of Graf's set that I've heard are uniformly excellent. The speeds
are perhaps too quick for some people, but the style, the sound, and the
quality of the playing are very satisfying.

Where Graf has the edge over Marriner is in keeping the arc of the music
leaning forward without losing the lovely individual phrases. He's near
ideal in this regard: the music sings very naturally. Marriner often seems
to think the music has to keep to a schedule and that one appointment is no
more important or different than the next.

=========================

I don't know this set.
I see an used copy is available on the label Capriccio.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Complete-Symphonies-Wolfgang-Amadeus/dp/B00005N5AH/
And some separate discs on Laserlight and on Capriccio.

[jrsnfld]

On Thursday, August 27, 2015 at 4:15:39 PM UTC-7, Gerard wrote:
> "jrsnfld" wrote in message
>

> What do you think about the Graf set? Maybe he's unjustly forgotten in this
> thread.

> =========================
>
> I don't know this set.
> I see an used copy is available on the label Capriccio.
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mozart-Complete-Symphonies-Wolfgang-Amadeus/dp/B00005N5AH/
> And some separate discs on Laserlight and on Capriccio.

Sample it on YT first and see what you think. You probably won't feel a need to have it since you already have Marriner.

--Jeff

[Randy Lane]

The conductor responsible for the highest number of memorable Mozart concerts I've ever attended, George Cleve, has died.

http://www.sfgate.com/music/article/George-Cleve-vibrant-Mozart-conductor-is-dead-6470069.php

[Gerard]

"jrsnfld" wrote in message
news:9587e668-3811-4f6a...@googlegroups.com...

=================

Thanks.
(I found one movement on YT.)
More probably I don't feel to have it since I prefer HIP recordings these
days ;-)

(Now listening to symphony #29 with Concerto Köln, "The Mozart album", also
on Capriccio.)

[nmsz...@gmail.com]

I have only one of Graf's Salzburg discs (Laserlight 15868 Early Symphones Vol. 2) to be able to compare with Marriner's. Firstly Graf is often *slower* than Marriner.
E.g. K45b (Symphony in B flat). The four movements: 2'15", 4'56", 2'52" and 3'41" for Graf compared with 2'10", 3'33", 2'48" 2'46'(movements one through four, respectively) assuming they are both playing the same 'notes', nevertheless Graf sounds slower, his orchestra is sluggish, their attacks aren't in the same league as is ASMF. ASMF is lively, attacks are clean and crisp as is the playing throughout. Timings aside, IAE, not worth that very much to begin with, Graf puts me to sleep, Marriner has me seating on the edge of me seat, anticipating what's coming next.

[jrsnfld]

I can't explain why Graf puts you to sleep, even though he's understated compared to, say, Tabakov. But if you listen side by side with Marriner you should be able to notice right away that those timings are misleading. In the second movement, for example, the tempi are almost identical. Graf is clearly repeating some material that Marriner is not repeating.

There is no great difference between the two groups in terms of quality of attacks. I'm not even sure ASMF is particularly "crisper" here, although they have a reputation for this. Graf's group has rounded (but precisely rounded!) attacks at times (but not throughout) that one might expect perfected by an Austrian orchestra, and they are not recorded as close. The lushness of the ASMF sound is very appealing but wears on me because the dynamics are limited as a result.

The difference is partly engineering, yet we can hear that the Salzburg musicians are very refined in producing sweetness, focus, and purity in their collective tone. To me the ASMF sound like a smaller group engineered and groomed to sound richer than its size--that's always been part of their formula for making classical and baroque music lean and crisp yet palatable to audiences used to bigger bands. The Salzburgers by contrast sound like they are groomed and engineered to sound lighter, gentler than their size might allow.

Noticeably slower in this movement, without dragging in the least, is Tabakov and the Sofia CO, which is recorded in a somewhat mushier acoustic but is suitably more romantic in approach--very beautiful in its own right.

The tempi are again very, very close in the third movement, with Graf slowing more in the trio but maybe slightly faster elsewhere. And again in the fourth movement Graf tends to be noticeably faster than Marriner (and if anything more cleanly played). A difference in repeats again?

I find all three of these recordings very appealing, even the Tabakov which seems somewhat old-fashioned. Marriner is very strong here, and he has the continuo that Graf lacks. Maybe that's catching your attention, or perhaps you prefer to move on without a few of the repeats?

--Jeff

[Al Eisner]

On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, jrsnfld wrote:

> On Wednesday, August 26, 2015 at 10:57:44 PM UTC-7, chriskh...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Arts Archive have issued symphonies 25 & 29 plus the Sinfonia Concertante from the RAI Roma cycle (and have also issued 4 Mozart operas - I can vouch for Figaro as terrific - and much other Maag from RAI).
>
> I'm very interested in that Figaro and the Cosi which people complain is not complete, but whatever.

There's quite a bit of Maag's Mozart available at the newly revived
Berkshire Record Outlet, including a number on the Arts Music label
the Symphony 25 + 29 + etc. noted above, a Figaro (Naples Radio 1959),
a Cosi (Rome Radio, 1967), an Idomeneo (Rome Radio 1965) and one of
the disks from the Padua symphony set. There is also an Abduction
on Walhall (Milan Radio, 1958) and a CDR set of Magic Flute on
Immortanl Classics (1973, no orchestra listed). Some of the operas
may be a bit short, based on the CD count. Apart from Mozart, there
are also several concerts conducted in Tokyo around 1990 (Bruckner,
Dvorak, Schumann, etc.) on the Tobu label. 32 search results in all.
--
Al Eisner

[jrsnfld]

This is precisely why I stopped examining the BRO listenings...too many temptations.

--Jeff

[Al Eisner]

> This is precisely why I stopped examining the BRO listenings...too many temptations.

Sorry, I needed something to see if their search still worked, and I had
just read some posts in this thread.... :)
--
Al Eisner