Radu Lupu
WannabeFree
"Jewish classical musicians" by Wikipedia.
Helene Grimaud too... That's news to me.
Dan Koren
"WannabeFree" <aqui...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1137291725....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Is he Jewish?
Of course.
> I always thought he was romanian, but he's listed
> under "Jewish classical musicians" by Wikipedia.
He was born in Romania. It is a rather well-known
story that Mme Muzicescu (Lipatti's kindergarten
piano teacher) turned him down (her anti-semitic
stance was well-known) so he studied under Mme
Delavrancea. He was then shipped to Moscow to
study with Neuhaus Pere & Fils sometime in his
early teens.
> Helene Grimaud too... That's news to me.
That would be news to me too. Is she is Jewish,
she certainly doesn't deserve to be.
dk
Dan Koren
"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:43c9bf30$1...@news.meer.net...
>
> "WannabeFree" <aqui...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:1137291725....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>
>
>
> That would be news to me too. Is she is Jewish,
If -----------------------------||
> she certainly doesn't deserve to be.
Sorry.
The caffeine has not reached
the tips of my fingers yet.
dk
SG
Dan Koren wrote:
> "WannabeFree" <aqui...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:1137291725....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Is he Jewish?
>
>
> Of course.
Of course to BOTH questions. Nazis, Paces, legionnaires, ethnical
purists and radical leftists apart, one CAN be both "Romanian" and
"Jewish".
> > I always thought he was romanian, but he's listed
> > under "Jewish classical musicians" by Wikipedia.
See above. Jewish people of extraordinary ability have extraordinarily
enriched whatever cultures (German, Hungarian, Russian, Romanian,
Polish . . .) they were embedded within, without ever being integrally
Jewish or entirely German, Polish etc.
> He was born in Romania. It is a rather well-known
> story that Mme Muzicescu (Lipatti's kindergarten
> piano teacher)
Funny, I thought Mme Musicescu taught Lipatti quite a bit beyond
kindergarten... you must have some "new" sources . . .
> turned him down (her anti-semitic
> stance was well-known) so he studied under Mme
> Delavrancea. He was then shipped to Moscow to
> study with Neuhaus Pere & Fils sometime in his
> early teens.
Cella Delavrancea was a far more interesting musician and all-round
person than Mme Musicescu, BLOODY-P*I*A*N*O*-stuck, ever was - so
perhaps Radu Lupu got the longer end of the stick, suo malgrado.
> > Helene Grimaud too... That's news to me.
>
>
> That would be news to me too. Is she is Jewish,
> she certainly doesn't deserve to be.
LOL. You should say that about all the murderous communists who
(decidely and undeservedly) gave the word Jewish a bad name, not about
a pianist you (and I) happen not to like.
regards,
SG
Ian Pace
"SG" <SGG...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137297605.2...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Dan Koren wrote:
>>
>> That would be news to me too. Is she is Jewish,
>> she certainly doesn't deserve to be.
>
> LOL. You should say that about all the murderous communists who
> (decidely and undeservedly) gave the word Jewish a bad name, not about
> a pianist you (and I) happen not to like.
>
in the past?
Ian
SG
> >> That would be news to me too. Is she is Jewish,
> >> she certainly doesn't deserve to be.
> >
> > LOL. You should say that about all the murderous communists who
> > (decidely and undeservedly) gave the word Jewish a bad name, not about
> > a pianist you (and I) happen not to like.
> >
> Now, where do we recall such sentiments about Jewishness and communism from
> in the past?
I have no idea where YOU recall "such sentiments" from. Unless you mean
that the Nazis equated Jewishness with Bolshevism, which was an
ideological, propagandistic, horribly distorting lie. In Eastern
European countries, a limited number of people of Jewish background (if
obviously if NOT of Jewish faith, given the atheistic fanaticism of the
communist ideology) have been communists. Therefore, the extreme right
has taken great pleasure in equating Jewishness and communism, not
unlike other people love to equate Jewishness and capitalism,
Jewishness and "imperialism" or, more recently, Jewishness and
"neoconservatism". Historical truth shows that "Jewishness" is more and
(especially) else than any of the above.
Not to divagate too far, *some* Jews were communists while some other
(easily demonstrable, actually MORE) Jews were themselves victims of
the murderous crypto-Fascist-aka-communist ideology. Disgusted with the
hypocritical utopia of Marxism, most of the (anyway minority of)
Romanian Jews who may have been temporarily enticed by the ideological
illusion that the opposite of Nazism was communism have immigrated to
Israel, renouncing explicitly or implicitly the Nazi-like evil of
communism.
regards,
SG
Dan Koren
>> "WannabeFree" <aqui...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
>> news:1137291725....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Is he Jewish?
>>
>> Of course.
>
> Of course to BOTH questions. Nazis, Paces, legionnaires, ethnical
> purists and radical leftists apart, one CAN be both "Romanian" and
> "Jewish".
Many ethnic Romanians (and other nations as well)
have not (yet/always) agreed to this noble concept.
>> > I always thought he was romanian, but he's listed
>> > under "Jewish classical musicians" by Wikipedia.
>
> See above. Jewish people of extraordinary ability have
> extraordinarily enriched whatever cultures (German,
> Hungarian, Russian, Romanian, Polish . . .) they
> were embedded within, without ever being integrally
> Jewish or entirely German, Polish etc.
My guess would be that if you polled random Poles off
the street, fewer than 50% would agree with you.
>> He was born in Romania. It is a rather well-known
>> story that Mme Muzicescu (Lipatti's kindergarten
>> piano teacher)
>
> Funny, I thought Mme Musicescu taught Lipatti quite
> a bit beyond kindergarten... you must have some "new"
> sources . . .
My understanding was that Lipatti studied, more or
less in chronological order, with: some parent or
relative (diapers), Mme Musicescu (kindergarten),
Georges Enesco (low and middle school) and Cortot
(high school and conservatory). But I could be
wrong of course.
>> turned him down (her anti-semitic
>> stance was well-known) so he studied under Mme
>> Delavrancea. He was then shipped to Moscow to
>> study with Neuhaus Pere & Fils sometime in his
>> early teens.
>
> Cella Delavrancea was a far more interesting
> musician and all-round person than Mme Musicescu,
> BLOODY-P*I*A*N*O*-stuck,
I will take your word for that.
> ever was - so perhaps Radu Lupu got the longer
> end of the stick, suo malgrado.
Of course he did -- Neuhaus Pere & Fils, no?
And so did Brigitte Engerer.
>> > Helene Grimaud too... That's news to me.
>>
>> That would be news to me too. Is she is
>> Jewish, she certainly doesn't deserve to be.
>
> LOL. You should say that about all the murderous
> communists who (decidely and undeservedly) gave
> the word Jewish a bad name,
I have -- and consistently so. Starting with
Karlfucking Marx. At the same time, one must
recognize that Marx' theories were deeply
rooted in German philosophy.
> not about a pianist you (and I) happen not
> to like.
I cannot tolerate Jewish pianists (Perahia,
Solomon, Badura-Skoda, Haskil, Serkin) who
play like Kempff, Arrau, Backhaus and Curzon.
Or who "serve the composer's intent".
It lowers the average IQ for the rest of the
group ;-)
dk
SG
Dan Koren wrote:
> "SG" <SGG...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1137297605.2...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Dan Koren wrote:
> >> "WannabeFree" <aqui...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> >> news:1137291725....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >> >
> >> > Is he Jewish?
> >>
> >> Of course.
> >
> > Of course to BOTH questions. Nazis, Paces, legionnaires, ethnical
> > purists and radical leftists apart, one CAN be both "Romanian" and
> > "Jewish".
>
>
> Many ethnic Romanians (and other nations as well)
> have not (yet/always) agreed to this noble concept.
I know - as far as I could predict, far-right ethnicist idiots will
unfortunately survive in most nations for at least another fifty years.
> >> > I always thought he was romanian, but he's listed
> >> > under "Jewish classical musicians" by Wikipedia.
> >
> > See above. Jewish people of extraordinary ability have
> > extraordinarily enriched whatever cultures (German,
> > Hungarian, Russian, Romanian, Polish . . .) they
> > were embedded within, without ever being integrally
> > Jewish or entirely German, Polish etc.
>
>
> My guess would be that if you polled random Poles off
> the street, fewer than 50% would agree with you.
I love Poland, but those are not the Poles I love.
> >> He was born in Romania. It is a rather well-known
> >> story that Mme Muzicescu (Lipatti's kindergarten
> >> piano teacher)
> >
> > Funny, I thought Mme Musicescu taught Lipatti quite
> > a bit beyond kindergarten... you must have some "new"
> > sources . . .
>
>
> My understanding was that Lipatti studied, more or
> less in chronological order, with: some parent or
> relative (diapers), Mme Musicescu (kindergarten),
> Georges Enesco (low and middle school) and Cortot
> (high school and conservatory). But I could be
> wrong of course.
A little (-:. Enescu was a great influence in Lipatti's life, but a
piano teacher he wasn't.
> >> That would be news to me too. Is she is
> >> Jewish, she certainly doesn't deserve to be.
> >
> > LOL. You should say that about all the murderous
> > communists who (decidely and undeservedly) gave
> > the word Jewish a bad name,
>
> I have -- and consistently so. Starting with
> Karlfucking Marx. At the same time, one must
> recognize that Marx' theories were deeply
> rooted in German philosophy.
>
>
> > not about a pianist you (and I) happen not
> > to like.
True. However, fortunately Karlfu*kingMarxism is not all German
philosophy leads to.
> I cannot tolerate Jewish pianists (Perahia,
> Solomon, Badura-Skoda, Haskil, Serkin) who
> play like Kempff, Arrau, Backhaus and Curzon.
> Or who "serve the composer's intent".
>
> It lowers the average IQ for the rest of the
> group ;-)
You exaggerate. Or aim at the wrong people. Have you ever read
Finkelstein?? (-;
regards,
SG
rkhalona
Dan Koren wrote:
> "WannabeFree" <aqui...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:1137291725....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Is he Jewish?
>
>
> Of course.
>
>
> > I always thought he was romanian, but he's listed
> > under "Jewish classical musicians" by Wikipedia.
>
>
> He was born in Romania. It is a rather well-known
> story that Mme Muzicescu (Lipatti's kindergarten
> piano teacher) turned him down (her anti-semitic
> stance was well-known) so he studied under Mme
> Delavrancea.
Finally! I always wondered why you were so sour on Lipatti.
I got my answer. Now, do you think Lipatti was anti-Semitic?
RK
(proud to have all kinds of friends)
Dan Koren
"Ian Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> wrote in message
news:9Zjyf.28$mf2...@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
It is a legitimate topic for
analysis or discussion, isn't
it?
As long, of course, as the
discussion is not motivated by
racial, ideological or political
prejudice.
dk
Dan Koren
>
> Dan Koren wrote:
>> "SG" <SGG...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1137297605.2...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Dan Koren wrote:
>> >> "WannabeFree" <aqui...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
>> >> news:1137291725....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> >> >
>> >> > Is he Jewish?
>> >>
>> >> Of course.
>> >
>> > Of course to BOTH questions. Nazis, Paces, legionnaires, ethnical
>> > purists and radical leftists apart, one CAN be both "Romanian" and
>> > "Jewish".
>>
>> Many ethnic Romanians (and other nations as well)
>> have not (yet/always) agreed to this noble concept.
>
> I know - as far as I could predict, far-right ethnicist idiots will
> unfortunately survive in most nations for at least another fifty years.
>
You are a great optimist, Samir!
Mark my words: for as long as
there are people on Earth.
dk
Dan Koren
"rkhalona" <rkha...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137301345....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
No, and this has nothing do at all with Lipatti's
opinion of Jews and Jewish artists.
I profoundly detest the manner of interpretation and the
musical and esthetic philosophy that moticate Lipatti's
interpretations -- which stated in the briefest and
crudest manner is that the performing artist's first
duty is to the composer's intent (or "LTMSFI" if you
will).
I have been quite clear about this matter, and I have
criticized as many (maybe more) pianists who are/were
of Jewish descent, and thrown them to the same bucket
as Lipatti -- most notably Santa Clara will not play
one note by Rachmaninov Haskil, Moron Perahia, Rudolf
Serkin, Solomon cannot remember a single phrase of
his playing Cutner, etc....
Going back to your original question, I find it rather
irrelevant, and I personally could not care less, but I
will try to answer it by mentioning that I heard many
hearsay reports purporting that a large fraction of
the Romanian intellectual elite (both before and
after WWII) tended to hold anti-Semitic views, and
that Lipatti and Enesco themselves were no exception.
I do not know to what extent this is or was true on
either a statistical or personal scale. I hope this
answers your question. If it doesn't, and you still
want an answer, I'm afraid you may have to embark
on a field trip to Romania and research the topic
on your own. Come to think of it, Dracula's Castle
might just be the ideal venue for next year's
Brucknerthon! ;-)
dk
rkhalona
answer and
your history of bashing Lipatti. As much as I disagree with Samir on
*some* topics,
I find him much more honest.
As usual, you are so unhelpful and biased.
Good luck to you.
RK
SG
Dan Koren wrote:
> I have been quite clear about this matter, and I have
> criticized as many (maybe more) pianists who are/were
> of Jewish descent, and thrown them to the same bucket
> as Lipatti -- most notably Santa Clara will not play
> one note by Rachmaninov Haskil
I hope you know Clara Haskil loved to play Rachmaninoff's Second Piano
Concerto - even if she never recorded it and, perhaps, in the latest
stage of her career (after a bad accident, horrible back pain etc.),
she focused - *had* to focus - on Mozart and other (physically if not
spiritually) "lighter" composers.
> Going back to your original question, I find it rather
> irrelevant, and I personally could not care less, but I
> will try to answer it by mentioning that I heard many
> hearsay reports purporting that a large fraction of
> the Romanian intellectual elite (both before and
> after WWII) tended to hold anti-Semitic views, and
> that Lipatti and Enesco themselves were no exception.
Monsieur Koren, you have hardly ever written anything as unjust and
unfair as the things above. About Dinu Lipatti I have no definite
evidence one way or the other... what I DO know makes me believe he was
no antisemite but could be a bit of an opportunist - as in performing
in the Nazified Germany, recording with the NDSAP member Hans von
Benda...
However - and please mark my words - you should NOT speak of Enescu
that way. Enescu was one of the few, very few wonderful human beings in
the music business, in Romania and elsewhere. ENESCU WAS NO ANTISEMITE.
You - or anybody else - could not produce the slightest, shabbiest,
smallest bit of evidence Enescu would have *ever* said, done, implied
ANYTHING against any fellow musician or human being on the basis of
his/her being Jewish. In fact Enescu stuck to defending as much as
possible all his Jewish friends (including his Jewish agent) all the
way. Enescu was too fine, too humanistic, too delicate, too sensitive a
human being to feel *any* kind of empathy with *any* kind of extremism,
left or right.
I abhor antisemitism. I do NOT buy into the antisemitic theory
according to which antisemitism would "simply" be one brand of racism
among many others. History shows that antisemitism, either overt or
under its various far-right (more recently far-left) disguises, is THE
most pernicious, stubborn, hypocritical and virulent brand of racism,
at least in the Western hemisphere. However, I do believe that it does
no service to the Jewish (or any other) cause to look for antisemitism
where there's EMPHATICALLY none, moreover, where, if anything, there's
only "philosemitism" - or, as I like to call it, "real-semitism".
You are right indeed in asserting that, unfortunately and shamefully, a
considerable part of the inter-bellum "Romanian elites" leaned far
right and toward inexcusable anti-semitism. ENESCU WAS ONE OF THE MOST
HONORABLE, REDEEMING, BEYOND REPROACH exceptions. Please kindly treat
him as such, unless you possess historical evidence which I would be
unaware of. I doubt that.
regards,
SG
Raymond Hall
The coffee hasn't reached his futile and bigotted brain yet. Give the
substance chance, and there is a distinct possibility, not much however,
considering the number of working cells available, that his racism and
redneck tendencies will really kick into action.
As if it was ever hidden.
He doesn't need luck. He needs pity.
Ray H
Taree
SG
Ramon:
> Your first paragraph is simply not credible in view of your previous
> answer and
> your history of bashing Lipatti.
What if DK dislikes Lipatti's playing (more than I do) but is NOT
"biased" insofar looking for *extraneous* reasons to "bash" Lipatti?
> As much as I disagree with Samir on
> *some* topics,
> I find him much more honest.
I believe I AM at least as honest as Dan Koren but not necessarily
"much more than".
> As usual, you are so unhelpful and biased.
> Good luck to you.
Ramon, I do myself believe that DK was surely biased toward Lipatti and
likely biased toward Enescu. However, there WAS enough far-right crap
going on in those unblessed times as to have one err on the side of
caution.
regards,
SG
rkhalona
SG wrote:
> Ramon:
>
> > Your first paragraph is simply not credible in view of your previous
> > answer and
> > your history of bashing Lipatti.
>
> What if DK dislikes Lipatti's playing (more than I do) but is NOT
> "biased" insofar looking for *extraneous* reasons to "bash" Lipatti?
Very interesting. Read DK's whole attitude towards Lipatti (I am
talking years, not just a few posts) . I always wanted to know why,
and his response today was the opening of a window. As for extraneous
reasons, all you have to do is read him, he's pretty open about that.
:-)
>
> > As much as I disagree with Samir on
> > *some* topics,
> > I find him much more honest.
>
> I believe I AM at least as honest as Dan Koren but not necessarily
> "much more than".
No. Quite often you tell us WHY. Not so with your counterpart.
>
> > As usual, you are so unhelpful and biased.
> > Good luck to you.
>
> Ramon, I do myself believe that DK was surely biased toward Lipatti and
> likely biased toward Enescu. However, there WAS enough far-right crap
> going on in those unblessed times as to have one err on the side of
> caution.
How long will you (and others) lament far-right crap? We live in it
now, and IAINM, you and Dan keep defending the modern (Bush) version of
it. Here's where the two of you and I part company.
RK
Dan Koren
>
> "SG" <SGG...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1137297605.2...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Dan Koren wrote:
>>> "WannabeFree" <aqui...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
>>> news:1137291725....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>> >
>>> > Is he Jewish?
>>>
>>> Of course.
>>
>> Of course to BOTH questions. Nazis, Paces, legionnaires, ethnical purists
>> and radical leftists apart, one CAN be both "Romanian" and "Jewish".
>
> Many ethnic Romanians (and other nations as well)
> have not (yet/always) agreed to this noble concept.
As further proof (as if proof were needed)
the list of names in the Famous Romanians
Hall of Fame at http://tinyurl.com/9peap
appears to have been carefully pruned of
any names/persons of Jewish origin.
It seems statistically unlikely (given that
until WWII Romania had the 3rd largest Jewish
population in Eatsern Europe after Russia and
Poland) that no person of Jewish origin could
have made a significant enough contribution to
Romanian culture, and/or become famous enough
outside Romania's borders, to justify being
listed there.
How about Radu Lupu, Clara Haskil, Mindru Catz
or Youra Guller? Sergiu Comissiona? Sherban
Lupu? Vladimir Orlov? Iolanda Marculescu?
Silvia Marcovici? I suppose none of them
count as "Romanians", or maybe they aren't
or weren't famous enough? As famous as, say
random pick Coposu, Corneliu (1914-1995) -
Politician (PNTCD)
Please convince us now that one CAN be
BOTH "Romanian" and "Jewish".
dk
Dan Koren
"WannabeFree" <aqui...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1137291725....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> "Jewish classical musicians" by Wikipedia.
>
> Helene Grimaud too... That's news to me.
>
HHmmm.... I'd be curious to find out what
is the source of your information about
Helene Grimaud. I have not seen or read
anything that would suggest she is Jewish
(obviously that doesn't rule out a great
grandmother on the maternal side).
It is rather difficult to keep track of
who is (or not) Jewish among artists,
and one's mileage may vary (a lot)
depending on how one defines being
Jewish. As you probably know, Jews
look at the maternal side, while
Christians typically look at the
paternal side. Thus, a child born
to a Jewish mother and a non Jewish
father would be accepted as Jewish
by the mother's family, and also as
{Christian|Muslim} by the father's
family, while a child born to a
Jewish father and a non-Jewish
mother night be rejected by both
sides (silly, but it does happen).
Then we have to deal with conversions.
Can someone who has converted out of
Judaism still be counted as Jewish?
E.g. Felix Mendelssohn, Maria Yudina,
Gustav Mahler, Otto Klemperer (the
latter's case even more interesting
as he converted back to Judaism late
in life). Well, the answer may depend
on who is counting. Did these people
see themselves as Jews? Who knows...
No matter how one counts, the list on
Wikipedia is both ridiculously short,
and filled with unreliable information.
Take for instance Felix Weingartner. My
father firmly believes he was Jewish,
and he almost managed to convince me
once.
Yet I was unable to find any evidence
that would support my father's claim.
Matthew The Great Ducktator Tepper is
supposedly an expert on Weingartner,
so maybe he could shed some light on
the matter.
The inclusion of Peter Serkin is
debatable, as his mother was not
Jewish.
Incorrect claims have been made about
a number of composers as being Jewish,
for reasons ranging from the themes and
titles of their works (Max Bruch) to
family ties (Georges Bizet) or facial
features (Igor Stravinsky and Maurice
Ravel).
In any case, here is a brief list of
additions to the Wikipedia. This is
*STRAIGHT* *OFF* *THE* *TOP* *OF*
*MY* *HEAD* without consulting any
sources (on- or off-line) and with
one of the cats sitting on my mouse
and making it diffiult to type. This
is a best effort and nothing more. I
do not guarantee the information to
be accurate, and you should feel
free to object, reject or correct
any entries you disagree with.
You may note that I included string
trios and quartets in the list. Such
ensembles change players from time to
time, and it would be very difficult
to keep track and list separately
Jewish artists on their rosters. I
followed the simple rule of thumb
to count a string trio or quartet
as "Jewish" if at any point in time
the leader and at least 50% of the
players were known to be Jewish.
I am not a wikipedist, therefore I
would appreciate if anyone who has
an interest on the topic would take
upon him/herself to enter the updates
into the Wikipedia. How about Matthew
Tepper, or "WannabeFree"?
------------------------------------------
THIS INFORMATION IS PROVIDED "AS IS"
WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER
EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AND ALL WARRANTIES
ARE DISCLAIMED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED
TO, ACCURACY, CORRECTNESS, TRUTHFULNESS,
THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-
INFRINGEMENT.
------------------------------------------
Cellists
--------
Emmanuel Feuermann
Natalia Gutman
Gregor Piatigorsky
Leonard Rose
Daniel Shafran
Vladimir Orlov
Composers
---------
Boris Pasternak
Nikolai Slonimsky
Moisei Vainberg
Conductors
----------
Karel Ancerl
Roberto Benzi
Gary Bertini
Leo Blech
Sergiu Comissiona
Issai Dobrowen
Jascha Horenstein
Istvan Kertesz
Paul Kletzki
Josef Krips
Andre Previn
Artur Rodzinski
Kurt Sanderling
Gerald Schwartz
David Zinman
Pianists
--------
Stefan Askenase
Paul Badura-Skoda
Simon Barere
Tzimon Barto
Dmitry Bashkirov
Harold Bauer
Fanny Bloomfield Zeisler
Felix Blumenfeld
Felicja Blumenthal
Nathan Brand
Yefim Bronfman
John Browning
Dave Brubeck
Mindru Catz
Abram Chasins
Arnaldo Cohen
Harry Datyner
Bella Davidovich
Mischa Dichter
Ania Dorfman
Eliane Elias
Mikhail Faerman
Samuil Feinberg
Vladimir Feltsman
Annie Fischer
Yakov Flier
Claude Frank
Ossip Gabrilowitsch
Bruno-Leonardo Gelber
Elisabeth Gilels
Leopold Godowsky
Alexander Goldenweiser
Gary Grafman
Maria Grinberg
Youra Guller
Mark Hambourg
Mikhail Hambourg
Monique Haas
Eugene Istomin
Paul Jacobs
Byron Janis
Maryla Jonas
Rafael Joseffy
Diana Kacso
Joseph Kalichstein
Julius Katchen
Sylvia Kersenbaum
Lili Kraus
Elena Kuschnerova
Ruth Laredo
Polina Leschenko
Oscar Levant
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Nicolai P. Zwar
> Is he Jewish? I always thought he was romanian, but he's listed under
> "Jewish classical musicians" by Wikipedia.
Why, one does not rule out the other.
--
Nicolai Zwar
http://www.nicolaizwar.com
"I am made out of water. You wouldn't know it, because I have it bound
in. My friends are made out of water, too. All of them. The problem for
us is that not only do we have to walk around without being absorbed by
the ground but we also have to earn our livings."
(Jack Isidore of Seville, Calif.)
Dan Koren
>
> SG wrote:
>> Ramon:
>>
>> > Your first paragraph is simply not credible in view of your previous
>> > answer and
>> > your history of bashing Lipatti.
>>
>> What if DK dislikes Lipatti's playing (more than I do) but is NOT
>> "biased" insofar looking for *extraneous* reasons to "bash" Lipatti?
>
> Very interesting. Read DK's whole attitude towards Lipatti (I am
> talking years, not just a few posts) .
My assessment of Lipatti (and others) has
changed over the years. There's nothing
unusual about that. People change, and
their tastes change too. When I was
younger I had been brainwashed into
believing that Lipatti and Clara
Haskil were great artists. I no
longer believe they were.
> I always wanted to know why, and his response today was
> the opening of a window. As for extraneous reasons, all
> you have to do is read him, he's pretty open about that.
> :-)
This is fucking ridiculous. I don't like what I hear when
the man plays. What extraneous reasons does one need?
>> > As much as I disagree with Samir on
>> > *some* topics,
>> > I find him much more honest.
>>
>> I believe I AM at least as honest as Dan Koren but not
>> necessarily "much more than".
>
> No. Quite often you tell us WHY. Not so with your counterpart.
This is a bald lie. I have been very clear about what I
do not like in Lipatti's playing. It is simply that YOU
do not like the explanation.
I am not suprised. Anyone who can put himself through
three days of Bruckner symphonies (and beer) must have
had his brains scorched a long time ago. I will even go
as far as to say that anyone who drinks while listening
to classical music is an idiotic, fucked fart.
>> > As usual, you are so unhelpful and biased.
>> > Good luck to you.
Same to you, dear Bruckner Police Chief.
>> Ramon, I do myself believe that DK was surely biased toward Lipatti and
>> likely biased toward Enescu. However, there WAS enough far-right crap
>> going on in those unblessed times as to have one err on the side of
>> caution.
>
> How long will you (and others) lament far-right crap? We live in it
> now, and IAINM, you and Dan keep defending the modern (Bush) version of
> it. Here's where the two of you and I part company.
Where was there any reference to Bush in
the thread about Lipatti ?!?
dk
Dan Koren
>
> Dan Koren wrote:
>
>> I have been quite clear about this matter, and I have
>> criticized as many (maybe more) pianists who are/were
>> of Jewish descent, and thrown them to the same bucket
>> as Lipatti -- most notably Santa Clara will not play
>> one note by Rachmaninov Haskil
>
> I hope you know Clara Haskil loved to play Rachmaninoff's
> Second Piano Concerto - even if she never recorded it and,
Then why the fuck didn't she perform it?
Why did she waste her career recording
countless times the same boring little
Mozart works? "Ah, vous dirais-je..."
Please enlighten us.
dk
Dan Koren
"Nicolai P. Zwar" <NPZ...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:dqd2ch$jc2$1...@online.de...
> WannabeFree wrote:
>>
>> Is he Jewish? I always thought he was romanian, but he's listed under
>> "Jewish classical musicians" by Wikipedia.
>
> Why, one does not rule out the other.
>
Well, for one thing he is not included
in the list at Famous Romanians Hall
of Fame at http://tinyurl.com/9peap.
Whomever compiled the list clearly did
not think one can be both Jewish and
Romanian. Maybe should should contact
them and ask why.
dk
Josep Vilanova
On 15/1/06 08:42, in article 43ca0afa$1...@news.meer.net, "Dan Koren"
<dank...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> HHmmm.... I'd be curious to find out what
> is the source of your information about
> Helene Grimaud. I have not seen or read
> anything that would suggest she is Jewish
> (obviously that doesn't rule out a great
> grandmother on the maternal side).
>
> It is rather difficult to keep track of
> who is (or not) Jewish among artists,
> and one's mileage may vary (a lot)
> depending on how one defines being
> Jewish. As you probably know, Jews
> look at the maternal side, while
> Christians typically look at the
> paternal side. Thus, a child born
> to a Jewish mother and a non Jewish
> father would be accepted as Jewish
> by the mother's family, and also as
> {Christian|Muslim} by the father's
> family, while a child born to a
> Jewish father and a non-Jewish
> mother night be rejected by both
> sides (silly, but it does happen)
I never heard about Christians looking at the paternal family to define
acceptance as a one of them. At least that was not the case in Spain, but
maybe it's a centre European thing.
Going back to the transmission of that Jewish identity, have you read that
article?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4611592.stm
j
Dan Koren
>
> "SG" <SGG...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1137304682.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Dan Koren wrote:
>>
>>> I have been quite clear about this matter, and I have
>>> criticized as many (maybe more) pianists who are/were
>>> of Jewish descent, and thrown them to the same bucket
>>> as Lipatti -- most notably Santa Clara will not play
>>> one note by Rachmaninov Haskil
>>
>> I hope you know Clara Haskil loved to play Rachmaninoff's
>> Second Piano Concerto - even if she never recorded it and,
>
>
> Then why the fuck didn't she perform it?
record ------------------------|||||||
Sorry.
dk
Dan Koren
you --------------||||||
Peter Lemken
>
> Dan Koren wrote:
>
> > I have been quite clear about this matter, and I have
> > criticized as many (maybe more) pianists who are/were
> > of Jewish descent, and thrown them to the same bucket
> > as Lipatti -- most notably Santa Clara will not play
> > one note by Rachmaninov Haskil
>
> I hope you know Clara Haskil loved to play Rachmaninoff's Second Piano
> Concerto - even if she never recorded it and, perhaps, in the latest
> stage of her career (after a bad accident, horrible back pain etc.),
> she focused - *had* to focus - on Mozart and other (physically if not
> spiritually) "lighter" composers.
She also recorded a Rachmaninoff Etude (Op. 33 No. 2).
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
Paul Lincke ist dem Zille sein Milhaud.
(Harry Rowohlt)
Dan Koren
"Josep Vilanova" <josepv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BFEFC2C2.188D2%josepv...@hotmail.com...
It is clearly a practice that varies with
national, cultural and social background.
There are also regional differences, and
sectarian differences, e.g. between the
Orthodox and the Catholics.
> Going back to the transmission of that
> Jewish identity, have you read that article?
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4611592.stm
>
Of course.
The most meaningful phrase in there is:
"This I could tell you even without the paper,"
;-)
dk
Dan Koren
"Peter Lemken" <spam.f...@buerotiger.de> wrote in message
news:42uiogF...@individual.net...
> In rec.music.classical.recordings SG <SGG...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dan Koren wrote:
>>
>> > I have been quite clear about this matter, and I have
>> > criticized as many (maybe more) pianists who are/were
>> > of Jewish descent, and thrown them to the same bucket
>> > as Lipatti -- most notably Santa Clara will not play
>> > one note by Rachmaninov Haskil
>>
>> I hope you know Clara Haskil loved to play Rachmaninoff's Second Piano
>> Concerto - even if she never recorded it and, perhaps, in the latest
>> stage of her career (after a bad accident, horrible back pain etc.),
>> she focused - *had* to focus - on Mozart and other (physically if not
>> spiritually) "lighter" composers.
>
> She also recorded a Rachmaninoff Etude (Op. 33 No. 2).
>
I would definitely like to hear it.
Where can I find it?
dk
Dan Koren
>
>> I have been quite clear about this matter, and I have
>> criticized as many (maybe more) pianists who are/were
>> of Jewish descent, and thrown them to the same bucket
>> as Lipatti -- most notably Santa Clara will not play
>> one note by Rachmaninov Haskil
>
> I hope you know Clara Haskil loved to play Rachmaninoff's
> Second Piano Concerto - even if she never recorded it and,
> perhaps, in the latest stage of her career (after a bad
> accident, horrible back pain etc.), she focused - *had*
> to focus - on Mozart and other (physically if not
> spiritually) "lighter" composers.
She should have started earlier.
As to Mozart, she translates "spiritual" into "boring".
She started the trend of prettifying and strudelizing
Mozart and legitimized Lipatti, Haebler, Anda, Uchida,
etc.... That should not be forgiven.
dk
Dan Koren
"Josep Vilanova" <josepv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BFEFC2C2.188D2%josepv...@hotmail.com...
>
> Jewish identity, have you read that
> article?
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4611592.stm
>
I am a great fan of re-mixing the
gene pool as often as possible. A
great example: one of my Chinese
colleagues married an Israeli 3
years ago. Their daughter, now
2 yo, chirps in 3 languages (
English, Hebrew and Mandarin),
takes piano and ballet lessons,
and is dotted by Chinese and
Jewish grandmothers ;-)
Both parents are CS PhD's and
serial entrepreneurs ;-)
dk
Nicolai P. Zwar
> Whomever compiled the list clearly did
> not think one can be both Jewish and
> Romanian.
Then whoever compiled the list is clearly wrong.
Nicolai P. Zwar
Why me?
Peter Lemken
>
> "Peter Lemken" <spam.f...@buerotiger.de> wrote in message
> >
>
> I would definitely like to hear it.
>
> Where can I find it?
http://bloatware.de/haskil-rachmaninoff-op33-2.mp3
A. Brain
> I am not suprised. Anyone who can put himself through
> three days of Bruckner symphonies (and beer) must have
> had his brains scorched a long time ago. I will even go
> as far as to say that anyone who drinks while listening
> to classical music is an idiotic, fucked fart.
This has to be the most absurd thing I have ever read on
this newsgroup. I need a beer or two just to listen to one
Bruckner symphony. Or maybe some Scotch. I can
never make up my mind about whether it's Scotch for
Mahler and beer for Bruckner or the other way around.
>> How long will you (and others) lament far-right crap? We live in it
>> now, and IAINM, you and Dan keep defending the modern (Bush) version
>> of
>> it. Here's where the two of you and I part company.
>
>
> Where was there any reference to Bush in
> the thread about Lipatti ?!?
Did I miss something here? Like some earlier Bush-bashing?
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
A. Brain
> How about Radu Lupu, Clara Haskil, Mindru Catz
> or Youra Guller? Sergiu Comissiona? Sherban
> Lupu? Vladimir Orlov? Iolanda Marculescu?
> Silvia Marcovici? I suppose none of them
> count as "Romanians", or maybe they aren't
> or weren't famous enough? As famous as, say
> random pick Coposu, Corneliu (1914-1995) -
> Politician (PNTCD)
>
> Please convince us now that one CAN be
> BOTH "Romanian" and "Jewish".
This discussion seems to have drifted
a little "off-topic". Meanwhile, I noticed
today, at my truly independent local store,
that there are several new Lupu box sets
on Decca, featuring Schubert and Brahms.
"Imports" meaning I guess they aren't technically
designed for U.S. distribution.
Lupu is scheduled to appear here in a min-
Mozart festival later this month. Only about
four concerts, with him playing one piano
concerto in one. Other concerts include
similar fare.
Back in 1991, under Eschenbach, we had
performances by HGO of several Mozart operas,
with stars like Thomas Allen and Renee
Fleming. And also, within the space of a
couple of weeks, we had Eschenbach
playing some concertos and conducting
the Requiem.
My recollection is that we had "Figaro",
"Don Giovanni", "Zauberfloete", "Cosi"
and "Tito".
So what's he up to in Philly to commemorate
the 250th annniversary?
Going back to Romanian issues, I believe
one of our locals, violinist Sergiu Luca, is originally
from Romania. I see him fairly frequently at
some local sushi joints.
A. Brain
Ordinarily, I don't chase grammar errors here,
but in Dan Koren's case, I'll make an exception,
since he is regularly so obnoxious. (And this is
the guy who repeatedly assured us, in connection
with the pre-Iraq war exaggerations--to understate
their character somewhat--that the U.S. government
knew what was going on and that doubters were
"f-----g comunists".)
"Whomever" is "objective"--and this is not even
a compound subject, where mistakes can be
forgiven, but usually when in the objective. This
can also be tricky in a phrase where the entire
phrase is the object.
One usually learns to say "Dan and I went
to the mat on the issue of Romanian pianists
as well as on the issue of pianistic prettifiers
of Mozart".
Trickier is "Dan vigorously argues with David
and me about politics". Because one learns
to use the subjective pronoun in compound
formulations first.
In the compound phrase, "Dan tends to
disagree with whoever else is posting during
the wee hours", or "Dan enjoys insulting whomever
he finds posting in the wee hours".
Then there is the so-called "predicate nominative".
which occasionally sounds odd even to those of
us who regularly observe it with personal pronouns.
Simplest example: "It is I."
Dan Koren
"A. Brain" <abr...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
news:aXqyf.259920$qk4....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> Going back to Romanian issues, I believe
> one of our locals, violinist Sergiu Luca, is originally from Romania.
If memory serves, he too is Jewish.
dk
ansermetniac
wrote:
>Cellists
Frank Miller
Abbedd
WannabeFree
Dan Koren wrote:
> "WannabeFree" <aqui...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:1137291725....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> > Is he Jewish? I always thought he was romanian, but he's listed under
> > "Jewish classical musicians" by Wikipedia.
> >
> > Helene Grimaud too... That's news to me.
> >
>
>
> HHmmm.... I'd be curious to find out what
> is the source of your information about
> Helene Grimaud. I have not seen or read
> anything that would suggest she is Jewish
> (obviously that doesn't rule out a great
> grandmother on the maternal side).
>
My only source is Wikipedia. I know the information on Wikipedia is not
always accurate, that's why I asked the question.
> [...]
tomdeacon
> >
> > Dan Koren wrote:
> >> "WannabeFree" <aqui...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> >> news:1137291725....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >> >
> >> > Is he Jewish?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > I always thought he was romanian, but he's listed
> >> > under "Jewish classical musicians" by Wikipedia.
> >>
> >>
> >> story that Mme Muzicescu (Lipatti's kindergarten
> >> piano teacher) turned him down (her anti-semitic
> >> stance was well-known) so he studied under Mme
> >> Delavrancea.
> >
> > Finally! I always wondered why you were so sour on Lipatti.
> > I got my answer. Now, do you think Lipatti was anti-Semitic?
> >
>
>
> No, and this has nothing do at all with Lipatti's
> opinion of Jews and Jewish artists.
>
> I profoundly detest the manner of interpretation and the
> musical and esthetic philosophy that moticate Lipatti's
> interpretations -- which stated in the briefest and
> crudest manner is that the performing artist's first
> duty is to the composer's intent (or "LTMSFI" if you
> will).
>
> I have been quite clear about this matter, and I have
> criticized as many (maybe more) pianists who are/were
> of Jewish descent, and thrown them to the same bucket
> as Lipatti -- most notably Santa Clara will not play
> Serkin, Solomon cannot remember a single phrase of
> his playing Cutner, etc....
>
> Going back to your original question, I find it rather
> irrelevant, and I personally could not care less, but I
> will try to answer it by mentioning that I heard many
> hearsay reports purporting that a large fraction of
> the Romanian intellectual elite (both before and
> after WWII) tended to hold anti-Semitic views, and
> that Lipatti and Enesco themselves were no exception.
>
> I do not know to what extent this is or was true on
> either a statistical or personal scale. I hope this
> answers your question. If it doesn't, and you still
> want an answer, I'm afraid you may have to embark
> on a field trip to Romania and research the topic
> on your own. Come to think of it, Dracula's Castle
> might just be the ideal venue for next year's
> Brucknerthon! ;-)
>
>
>
> dk
Methinks Mr. Koren protests too much.
TD
tomdeacon
SG wrote:
> Dan Koren wrote:
>
> > I have been quite clear about this matter, and I have
> > criticized as many (maybe more) pianists who are/were
> > of Jewish descent, and thrown them to the same bucket
> > as Lipatti -- most notably Santa Clara will not play
>
> I hope you know Clara Haskil loved to play Rachmaninoff's Second Piano
> Concerto - even if she never recorded it and, perhaps, in the latest
> stage of her career (after a bad accident, horrible back pain etc.),
> she focused - *had* to focus - on Mozart and other (physically if not
> spiritually) "lighter" composers.
>
>
> > irrelevant, and I personally could not care less, but I
> > will try to answer it by mentioning that I heard many
> > hearsay reports purporting that a large fraction of
> > the Romanian intellectual elite (both before and
> > after WWII) tended to hold anti-Semitic views, and
> > that Lipatti and Enesco themselves were no exception.
>
> unfair as the things above. About Dinu Lipatti I have no definite
> evidence one way or the other... what I DO know makes me believe he was
> no antisemite but could be a bit of an opportunist - as in performing
> in the Nazified Germany, recording with the NDSAP member Hans von
> Benda...
>
> However - and please mark my words - you should NOT speak of Enescu
> that way. Enescu was one of the few, very few wonderful human beings in
> the music business, in Romania and elsewhere. ENESCU WAS NO ANTISEMITE.
> You - or anybody else - could not produce the slightest, shabbiest,
> smallest bit of evidence Enescu would have *ever* said, done, implied
> ANYTHING against any fellow musician or human being on the basis of
> his/her being Jewish. In fact Enescu stuck to defending as much as
> possible all his Jewish friends (including his Jewish agent) all the
> way. Enescu was too fine, too humanistic, too delicate, too sensitive a
> human being to feel *any* kind of empathy with *any* kind of extremism,
> left or right.
>
> I abhor antisemitism. I do NOT buy into the antisemitic theory
> according to which antisemitism would "simply" be one brand of racism
> among many others. History shows that antisemitism, either overt or
> under its various far-right (more recently far-left) disguises, is THE
> most pernicious, stubborn, hypocritical and virulent brand of racism,
> at least in the Western hemisphere. However, I do believe that it does
> no service to the Jewish (or any other) cause to look for antisemitism
> where there's EMPHATICALLY none, moreover, where, if anything, there's
> only "philosemitism" - or, as I like to call it, "real-semitism".
>
> You are right indeed in asserting that, unfortunately and shamefully, a
> considerable part of the inter-bellum "Romanian elites" leaned far
> right and toward inexcusable anti-semitism. ENESCU WAS ONE OF THE MOST
> HONORABLE, REDEEMING, BEYOND REPROACH exceptions. Please kindly treat
> him as such, unless you possess historical evidence which I would be
> unaware of. I doubt that.
>
> regards,
> SG
In fact, Mr. Golescu is SOOOOOOOOO not antisemitic, that he has
actually become a kind of advocate for the very opposite of
antisemitism.
But Golescu always has a tendency to go to the very extremes.
Communists are not simply communits. Oh, no. They are murderous,
fanatically atheistic, crypto-Fascists as well. Karl Marx is
Karlfucking Marx, his political dream a "hypocritical utopia", as
though Karl Marx didn't actually believe that he was creating a utopia,
but simply doing so with ulterior hypocritical motives. One can only
presume that had Mr. Golescu been alive, he would have loyally served
the esteemed former Senator from Wisconsin, Mr. Joseph McCarthy, in his
pathetic witch-hunts. He probably follows Pat Robertson today. He still
refuses to watch a Joseph Losey movie. even today.
There is such a well-spring of hatred in this person that one hates to
imagine how he would perform the masterpieces of the piano literature.
And how, one wonders, would he behave should he have to teach a WASP
student who is flirting with Marxism? I can imagine the ruler landing
on that poor sod's fingers with a special degree of vehemence.
TD
SG
tomdeacon wrote:
(characteristic nonsense)
Oh, so Tom Deacon is alive. In a manner of speaking. Mr. Brain is long
departed but the fingertips still move on the keyboard on their own.
Good. The group wouldn't be as funny without the little self-serving
senile sinecuristic sycophantic jackass who was swallowing brazenly his
blood caviar while savoring the Tchaikovsky Competitions, while
millions of Russians were spending their forced "vacations" in Siberia.
And now the little precious nobody, which even an industry of nobodies
deemed only worthy of being spit out in the cold, dares speak of
McCarthy-ism.
Rumor has it Tom Deacon would be Christian - or, perhaps, would have
joined the party in order to give it a bad name & ruin it from within.
The question for the ages remains: provided he's so damn religious, why
doesn't Tom Deacon have a prayer?
Dan Koren
"tomdeacon" <tomde...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1137332058....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> But Golescu always has a tendency to go to the very extremes.
> Communists are not simply communits. Oh, no. They are murderous,
Have you counted the people murdered in the name of
building a "better" society in Russia, China, Cuba,
Eastern Europe and South East Asia?
> fanatically atheistic, crypto-Fascists as well.
Aren't all dictatorships and tyrannies similar?
> Karl Marx is Karlfucking Marx, his political dream a
> "hypocritical utopia", as though Karl Marx didn't
> actually believe that he was creating a utopia,
?!?!?
Marx believed a better society could be engineered.
> but simply doing so with ulterior hypocritical motives.
Where did you get that?
> One can only presume that had Mr. Golescu been alive,
> he would have loyally served the esteemed former Senator
> from Wisconsin, Mr. Joseph McCarthy, in his pathetic
> witch-hunts.
And such presumeption is based on what facts, besides the
hallucinations of your feeble mind?
> He probably follows Pat Robertson today. He still
> refuses to watch a Joseph Losey movie. even today.
ROTFL !!!
> There is such a well-spring of hatred in this person
> that one hates to imagine how he would perform the
> masterpieces of the piano literature.
Then I suppose all that is left for you is to listen
to Ian Pace.
> And how, one wonders, would he behave should he have
> to teach a WASP student who is flirting with Marxism?
WASPs "flirting"? I suppose you don't know WASPs very
well -- do you?
> I can imagine the ruler landing on that poor sod's
> fingers with a special degree of vehemence.
Watched too many horrow movies lately, eh Deacon?
dk
Dan Koren
>
>
> Methinks Mr. Koren protests too much.
>
Ever heard of the First Amendment?
But maybe where you live you're
still kissing the Queen's ass.
dk
Dan Koren
"ansermetniac" <anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9fiks19omukv9sgsp...@4ax.com...
Ofra Harnoy!
How could I forget her?
dk
Dan Koren
"EM" <e-m-e-m-e...@google.com> wrote in message
news:8dfks19sv23a08pkj...@4ax.com...
> "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> - Sun, 15 Jan 2006 00:42:32 -0800:
>
>> As you probably know, Jews
>> look at the maternal side, while
>> Christians typically look at the
>> paternal side.
>
> It's not a matter of maternal or paternal side at all, but a matter of
> religious belief and convictions only.
>
I wasn't referring to what people
*can* do, only to what they do
sometimes.
dk
Richard Schultz
While I agree with your taking Mr. Koren to task for his misuse of "whomever,"
: Then there is the so-called "predicate nominative".
: which occasionally sounds odd even to those of
: us who regularly observe it with personal pronouns.
: Simplest example: "It is I."
"And would you write 'The worst tennis player around here is I' or 'The
worst tennis player around here is me'? The first is good grammar, the
second is good judgment. . ."
-- Strunk & White, _The Elements of Style_
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."
Norman M. Schwartz
> See above. Jewish people of extraordinary ability have extraordinarily
> enriched whatever cultures (German, Hungarian, Russian, Romanian,
> Polish . . .) they were embedded within, without ever being integrally
> Jewish or entirely German, Polish etc.
>
Not only did they enrich the culture but they saw to it that the USA
enriched U-235 before their Nazi brothers accomplished it.
SG
rkhalona wrote:
> How long will you (and others) lament far-right crap? We live in it
> now
You mean we live now in a "far-right" society - so we need to vote for
a Democrat in 2008 so that the present administration leaves the White
House... but, wait a minute, were this indeed a far right
administration in the true sense of the words (you know, that you
dislike a Bush administration does not make them more "fascist" than a
Clinton administration would be rendered "communist" by the fact that,
I don't know, Bob Harper may have not liked it), they would not leave
the White House, but instate martial law, jail any political
opposition, outlaw classical music and Simon Roberts forever. Is that
what you believe is bond to happen? If not, don't you believe you're
stretching the sense of "far right" to in fact mean "more to the right
than Ramon would like it"?
regards,
SG
Paul Ilechko
> It is a legitimate topic for
> analysis or discussion, isn't
> it?
>
> As long, of course, as the
> discussion is not motivated by
> racial, ideological or political
> prejudice.
What exactly is wrong with ideological or political prejudice? Isn't
ideology by its very nature prejudicial? Given that ideology and
politics are a *choice*, there is no reason not to despise someone for
making a stupid choice. However, despising someone for an instrinsic
quality, such as skin color, gender or sexual orientation, is clearly
wrong (that statement is part of my ideology).
Apart from which, I think Radu Lupu is an absolutely wonderful pianist,
and I don't give a shit about where he comes from or what his background
is.
SG
Dan Koren wrote:
> Watched too many horrow movies lately, eh Deacon?
You get the trophy for this remarkable contraction of narrow, horror
and hollow, in one word. It fits the deacon to a ss.
regards,
SG
The Historian
> tomdeacon wrote:
> (characteristic nonsense)
>
> Oh, so Tom Deacon is alive. In a manner of speaking. Mr. Brain is long
> departed but the fingertips still move on the keyboard on their own.
You must be kidding. Mr. A. Brain posted just this morning!
> Good. The group wouldn't be as funny without the little self-serving
> senile sinecuristic sycophantic jackass who was swallowing brazenly his
> blood caviar while savoring the Tchaikovsky Competitions, while
> millions of Russians were spending their forced "vacations" in Siberia.
Wow. What a sentence!
The Historian
> Apart from which, I think Radu Lupu is an absolutely wonderful pianist,
> and I don't give a shit about where he comes from or what his background
> is.
Agreed. I don't think I have a single Lupu recording. What should I buy
first?
Paul Ilechko
His Schubert is great - I have D845/894 and D960, as well as the
Impromptus. Highly recommended.
Paul Ilechko
They certainly seem to be trying to move in that direction. Although
using rigged Diebold machines is a little more subtle than the typical
facist government gets. But preventing people from voting based on their
skin color is fairly typical.
graham
Dan Koren
"Paul Ilechko" <noSPaM_pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in message
news:42v5t9F...@individual.net...
> Dan Koren wrote:
>
>> It is a legitimate topic for
>> analysis or discussion, isn't
>> it?
>>
>> As long, of course, as the
>> discussion is not motivated by
>> racial, ideological or political
>> prejudice.
>
> What exactly is wrong with ideological or political prejudice?
All prejudice is wrong.
dk
Dan Koren
"The Historian" <Spam...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qptyf.8628$%W1....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Schubert Impromptus.
dk
Dan Koren
And Franck Sonata with Kim-Wha Chung.
dk
Dan Koren
> SG wrote:
>> tomdeacon wrote:
>> (characteristic nonsense)
>>
>> Oh, so Tom Deacon is alive. In a manner of speaking. Mr. Brain is long
>> departed but the fingertips still move on the keyboard on their own.
>
> You must be kidding. Mr. A. Brain posted just this morning!
>
We're so relieved it wasn't Mr. Z. Brain.
dk
tomdeacon
Precisely.
It is odd that those who DO seem to care, all fall into one particular
camp.
TD
tomdeacon
The Historian wrote:
> SG wrote:
> > Good. The group wouldn't be as funny without the little self-serving
> > senile sinecuristic sycophantic jackass who was swallowing brazenly his
> > blood caviar while savoring the Tchaikovsky Competitions, while
> > millions of Russians were spending their forced "vacations" in Siberia.
>
> Wow. What a sentence!
Characteristic, however.
Mr. Golescu never says in one word what he can say in a hundred.
Usually they are garbled and overweighted with pseudo-adjectives in a
distinctly Germanic fashion.
Very ugly, in fact.
TD
A. Brain
news:dqdmi1$fk$1...@news.iucc.ac.il...
> In rec.music.classical.recordings A. Brain <abr...@nospamatt.net>
> wrote:
>
> While I agree with your taking Mr. Koren to task for his misuse of
> "whomever,"
>
> : Then there is the so-called "predicate nominative".
> : which occasionally sounds odd even to those of
> : us who regularly observe it with personal pronouns.
> : Simplest example: "It is I."
>
> "And would you write 'The worst tennis player around here is I' or
> 'The
> worst tennis player around here is me'? The first is good grammar,
> the
> second is good judgment. . ."
> -- Strunk & White, _The Elements of Style_
It's been a while since I reviewed Strunk and White,
but the standard response to a problem like this
is to rephrase and they should have said so:
"I am the worst tennis player around here."
Or even better, if you insist on maintaining the
predicate nominative formulation, "The worst
tennis player around here is yours truly". That
avoids the problem nicely.
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
tomdeacon
> > What exactly is wrong with ideological or political prejudice?
>
>
> All prejudice is wrong.
That makes you wrong ALL the time, Koren.
Your prejudices are legendary. The Lipatti case is just one, among
many. Clara Haskil is another. Ingrid Haebler is another. Walter
Gieseking is another. Wilhelm Backhaus is another. Wilhelm Kempff is
another. Ludwig van Beethoven is another. And we could go on and on and
on.
Usually the prejudices stem from factors which are completely
non-musical. In all instances they are totally irrational and really
quite silly.
TD
Dan Koren
I do not like Lupu's D960 as much as
his other Schubert sonata recordings.
Overall, I think D894 and D959 are
the best.
The Beethoven PC's #1 and #3 have
always been two of his signature
pieces.
His late Brahms is also top drawer.
Op. 117 is arguably the finest on
record.
It is extremely frustrating that
the repertoire Lupu has recorded
for Decca is so limited. There
are tapes of live performances
floating around that include some
of the finest Chopin (Ballade in g,
Etude 10/4), Debussy (Preludes)
and Beethoven (op. 110) I have
ever heard.
dk
tomdeacon
Dan Koren wrote:
> It is extremely frustrating that
> the repertoire Lupu has recorded
> for Decca is so limited.
This is purely of the pianist's choosing.
Decca has always been ready and willing to record him in anything
anywhere.
TD
Paul Ilechko
That's meaningless, it's like saying all opinion is wrong.
Dan Koren
One had the impression you liked German,
especially when transliterated in English.
Are you now switching to Iroquois? That
should do wonders for your eloquence,
and you will be able to give away to
charity that big and heavy Oxford
Dictionary to make room for more
CDs.
dk
WannabeFree
tomdeacon wrote:
> Dan Koren wrote:
> > "Paul Ilechko" <noSPaM_pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in message
>
> > > What exactly is wrong with ideological or political prejudice?
> >
> >
> > All prejudice is wrong.
>
> That makes you wrong ALL the time, Koren.
>
> Your prejudices are legendary. The Lipatti case is just one, among
> many. Clara Haskil is another. Ingrid Haebler is another. Walter
> Gieseking is another. Wilhelm Backhaus is another. Wilhelm Kempff is
> another. Ludwig van Beethoven is another. And we could go on and on and
> on.
>
Why, is L.v. Beethoven Jewish too? That would be some news...
Josep Vilanova
>
> Why, is L.v. Beethoven Jewish too? That would be some news...
>
You may laugh at that, but there was a book published many years ago that
proposed that Beethoven was actually black and that there was a gigantic
cover up to make him appear like white.
j
John Thomas
The Historian <Spam...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Get his new Schubert collection http://tinyurl.com/bds2t which
contains most if not all of his Decca material. Lupu's recordings were
the first to actually make me like anything by Schubert. His CD of late
Brahms pieces is also superb. I see there's also a new box of his
Beethoven piano concertos and a few sonatas, but I haven't heard any of
his LvB and wonder how good it is.
--
Regards,
John Thomas
The Historian
Oh, please tell us the title! I'd love a book that makes
anti-Stratfordians seem sane in comparison!
tomdeacon
> > Mr. Golescu never says in one word what he can say in a hundred.
> >
> > Usually they are garbled and overweighted with pseudo-adjectives in a
> > distinctly Germanic fashion.
> >
> > Very ugly, in fact.
> >
>
>
> One had the impression you liked German,
> especially when transliterated in English.
Another prejudice exposed.
How is it possible that you get SO much SO wrong, Koren?
> Are you now switching to Iroquois?
And now you turn the debate into silliness.
Again, typical.
TD
tomdeacon
Who mentioned Beethoven being Jewish?
TD
The Historian
Thank you.
Dan Koren
>
> Dan Koren wrote:
>
>> It is extremely frustrating that
>> the repertoire Lupu has recorded
>> for Decca is so limited.
>
> This is purely of the pianist's choosing.
I didn't claim otherwise.
> Decca has always been ready and
> willing to record him in anything
> anywhere.
Are you stating this as fact or as
opinion?
dk
Dan Koren
"John Thomas" <abras...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:abrasax365-0E20A...@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...
Lupu's LvB recordings have been
consistently far less exciting
than his live performances. No
one plays a better PC#1 or PC#3,
and on good days his Emperoars
can also be outstanding.
dk
Dan Koren
"Joe Vitale" <ru...@ironeedle.com> wrote in message
news:Xns974C66DE649D8...@216.196.97.131...> news:42v6i7F...@individual.net:
>
>> They certainly seem to be trying to move in that direction. Although
>> using rigged Diebold machines is a little more subtle than the typical
>> facist government gets. But preventing people from voting based on their
>> skin color is fairly typical.
>
> Wisconsin) where five alleged Democratic operatives have been charged with
> the slashing of tires on vans that were designated to bring senior
> citizens
> to the voting booth for the 2004 Presidential election? The vans were
> operated by the Republican Party and the senior citizens they were
> intending on bringing to the voting booth were mostly white, therefore the
> Democrats naturally assumed they would be voting Republican and they
> needed
> to find a way to prevent it -well they found a way.
>
Any suggestion that the "right" is
more prone than the "left" to rig
elections is so absurd that it
does not deserve comment.
Politicians stink on both sides.
dk
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:Jntyf.8626$%W1.6967
@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net:
> SG wrote:
>> tomdeacon wrote:
>> (characteristic nonsense)
>>
>> Oh, so Tom Deacon is alive. In a manner of speaking. Mr. Brain is long
>> departed but the fingertips still move on the keyboard on their own.
>
> You must be kidding. Mr. A. Brain posted just this morning!
*chuckle*
>> Good. The group wouldn't be as funny without the little self-serving
>> senile sinecuristic sycophantic jackass who was swallowing brazenly his
>> blood caviar while savoring the Tchaikovsky Competitions, while
>> millions of Russians were spending their forced "vacations" in Siberia.
>
> Wow. What a sentence!
>
>> And now the little precious nobody, which even an industry of nobodies
>> deemed only worthy of being spit out in the cold, dares speak of
>> McCarthy-ism.
>>
>> Rumor has it Tom Deacon would be Christian - or, perhaps, would have
>> joined the party in order to give it a bad name & ruin it from within.
>> The question for the ages remains: provided he's so damn religious, why
>> doesn't Tom Deacon have a prayer?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made. ~ FDR (attrib.)
Matthew B. Tepper
the following letters to be typed in news:42v6dhF...@individual.net:
> The Historian wrote:
>> Paul Ilechko wrote:
>>
>>> Apart from which, I think Radu Lupu is an absolutely wonderful
>>> pianist, and I don't give a shit about where he comes from or what his
>>> background is.
>>
>> Agreed. I don't think I have a single Lupu recording. What should I buy
>> first?
>
> His Schubert is great - I have D845/894 and D960, as well as the
> Impromptus. Highly recommended.
Whadda youse guys think of his Schumann and Grieg concerti?
Ian Pace
"SG" <SGG...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1137304682.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I abhor antisemitism. I do NOT buy into the antisemitic theory
> according to which antisemitism would "simply" be one brand of racism
> among many others. History shows that antisemitism, either overt or
> under its various far-right (more recently far-left) disguises, is THE
> most pernicious, stubborn, hypocritical and virulent brand of racism,
> at least in the Western hemisphere.
So who currently suffers more from racial discrimination in the US, say,
Jewish people or African-Americans? How about the situation of those whose
origin is from Arab or Muslim countries in Western Europe?
Ian
Peter Lemken
> Paul Ilechko wrote:
>
> > Apart from which, I think Radu Lupu is an absolutely wonderful pianist,
> > and I don't give a shit about where he comes from or what his background
> > is.
>
> Agreed. I don't think I have a single Lupu recording. What should I buy
> first?
Brahms f-minor sonata
Peter Lemken
Berlin
--
Paul Lincke ist dem Zille sein Milhaud.
(Harry Rowohlt)
Josep Vilanova
further papers written after that. Google it and you'll find plenty of
pages.
j
On 15/1/06 16:56, in article
l9vyf.8682$%W1....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net, "The Historian"
Dan Koren
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns974C5EA7FA0...@207.217.125.201...
> Paul Ilechko <noSPaM_pile...@patmedia.net> appears to have caused
> the following letters to be typed in news:42v6dhF...@individual.net:
>
>> The Historian wrote:
>>> Paul Ilechko wrote:
>>>
>>>> Apart from which, I think Radu Lupu is an absolutely wonderful
>>>> pianist, and I don't give a shit about where he comes from or what his
>>>> background is.
>>>
>>> Agreed. I don't think I have a single Lupu recording. What should I buy
>>> first?
>>
>> His Schubert is great - I have D845/894 and D960, as well as the
>> Impromptus. Highly recommended.
>
> Whadda youse guys think of his Schumann and Grieg concerti?
>
Good, but not first choices.
dk
Dan Koren
"graham" <g.st...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:Tvtyf.125621$tl.116090@pd7tw3no...
>
> "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:43ca5cc3$1...@news.meer.net...
>>
>> "ansermetniac" <anserm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:9fiks19omukv9sgsp...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 00:42:32 -0800, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Cellists
>>>
>>> Frank Miller
>>
>> Ofra Harnoy!
>>
>> How could I forget her?
>>
> Very easily! 3rd rate on a good night!
Do you know this first hand?
dk
Gerard
They're all glad not to be in the US.
JohnGavin
I can't help but wonder what the motivation is for compiling these long
lists - and counting string quartets if the are 50%, and trios is they
are 66%, and IS SHE or ISN"T SHE, and "they aren't even though they
look like they are". It feels like some sort of "show and tell" - or
"look how many of us there are". It's been done before and so what is
the point? The spirit behind these recurring discussions always feel
a bit odd. I really don't get the point.
Also, if the compiler of the list dislikes all sorts of prejudices why
use the term popsichordists instead of harpsichordists. This is beyond
juvenile.
WannabeFree
>
> > See above. Jewish people of extraordinary ability have extraordinarily
> > enriched whatever cultures (German, Hungarian, Russian, Romanian,
> > Polish . . .) they were embedded within, without ever being integrally
> > Jewish or entirely German, Polish etc.
> >
> Not only did they enrich the culture but they saw to it that the USA
> enriched U-235 before their Nazi brothers accomplished it.
You are not blaming them for that, I hope? They did right, IMO.
John W. Kennedy
US Jews are at present seeing relatively little discrimination as a
result of the theory espoused by such luminaries of the US right wing as
Pat Robertson and Dick Cheney that the State of Israel is a necessary
prerequisite to the descent of Tashlan.
(Doesn't change the fact that the NJ town I live in was Restricted
within living memory, or that a proposed synagogue one town over was
effectively zoned to death just a decade ago.)
Now, if you're talking about anti-Black discrimination, yes, that's a
good deal nastier. But it's a lot younger than anti-Semitism, having its
origin only a few centuries ago in Whites' hysterical denial of guilt
over slavery. And it's a lot less than it was when I was younger.
European anti-Arab and anti-Muslim bias is, for the most part, perfectly
ordinary anti-immigrant hysteria, a story that's been told over and over
throughout history. (One might point to anti-Irish bias in 19th-century
America.)
--
John W. Kennedy
"But now is a new thing which is very old--
that the rich make themselves richer and not poorer,
which is the true Gospel, for the poor's sake."
-- Charles Williams. "Judgement at Chelmsford"
Prai Jei
<1137291725....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
> Is he Jewish? I always thought he was romanian, but he's listed under
> "Jewish classical musicians" by Wikipedia.
>
> Helene Grimaud too... That's news to me.
Why does it matter?
--
Terms and conditions apply. Contains permitted artificial sweetener and
colours. Batteries not included. Always read the label.
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
Jan Winter
Being a Jew in Moscow is more dangerous than being a Morrocan in
Amsterdam, an Algerian in France or a Pakistani in London, even after
9/11 and the subway-murders in Madrid and London, because for them
there is no Endlösung. And the pogroms seem only to have taken place
in Australia up to now and not supported by the authorities
So you better come back to earth.
-----
jan winter, amsterdam
email: name = j.winter; provider = xs4all; com = nl
WannabeFree
Prai Jei wrote:
> WannabeFree (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message
> <1137291725....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
>
> > Is he Jewish? I always thought he was romanian, but he's listed under
> > "Jewish classical musicians" by Wikipedia.
> >
> > Helene Grimaud too... That's news to me.
>
> Why does it matter?
> --
It doesn't. Just wanted to get the facts straight.
WannabeFree
Nobody, but you put him on the same list as the other (jewish) artists,
so it's fair to assume that.
Frank Berger
>
> SG wrote:
>> Dan Koren wrote:
>>
>> > I have been quite clear about this matter, and I have
>> > criticized as many (maybe more) pianists who are/were
>> > of Jewish descent, and thrown them to the same bucket
>> > as Lipatti -- most notably Santa Clara will not play
>> > one note by Rachmaninov Haskil
>>
>> I hope you know Clara Haskil loved to play Rachmaninoff's Second Piano
>> Concerto - even if she never recorded it and, perhaps, in the latest
>> stage of her career (after a bad accident, horrible back pain etc.),
>> she focused - *had* to focus - on Mozart and other (physically if not
>> spiritually) "lighter" composers.
>>
>>
>> > Going back to your original question, I find it rather
>> > irrelevant, and I personally could not care less, but I
>> > will try to answer it by mentioning that I heard many
>> > hearsay reports purporting that a large fraction of
>> > the Romanian intellectual elite (both before and
>> > after WWII) tended to hold anti-Semitic views, and
>> > that Lipatti and Enesco themselves were no exception.
>>
>> Monsieur Koren, you have hardly ever written anything as unjust and
>> unfair as the things above. About Dinu Lipatti I have no definite
>> evidence one way or the other... what I DO know makes me believe he was
>> no antisemite but could be a bit of an opportunist - as in performing
>> in the Nazified Germany, recording with the NDSAP member Hans von
>> Benda...
>>
>> However - and please mark my words - you should NOT speak of Enescu
>> that way. Enescu was one of the few, very few wonderful human beings in
>> the music business, in Romania and elsewhere. ENESCU WAS NO ANTISEMITE.
>> You - or anybody else - could not produce the slightest, shabbiest,
>> smallest bit of evidence Enescu would have *ever* said, done, implied
>> ANYTHING against any fellow musician or human being on the basis of
>> his/her being Jewish. In fact Enescu stuck to defending as much as
>> possible all his Jewish friends (including his Jewish agent) all the
>> way. Enescu was too fine, too humanistic, too delicate, too sensitive a
>> human being to feel *any* kind of empathy with *any* kind of extremism,
>> left or right.
>>
>> I abhor antisemitism. I do NOT buy into the antisemitic theory
>> according to which antisemitism would "simply" be one brand of racism
>> among many others. History shows that antisemitism, either overt or
>> under its various far-right (more recently far-left) disguises, is THE
>> most pernicious, stubborn, hypocritical and virulent brand of racism,
>> no service to the Jewish (or any other) cause to look for antisemitism
>> where there's EMPHATICALLY none, moreover, where, if anything, there's
>> only "philosemitism" - or, as I like to call it, "real-semitism".
>>
>> You are right indeed in asserting that, unfortunately and shamefully, a
>> considerable part of the inter-bellum "Romanian elites" leaned far
>> right and toward inexcusable anti-semitism. ENESCU WAS ONE OF THE MOST
>> HONORABLE, REDEEMING, BEYOND REPROACH exceptions. Please kindly treat
>> him as such, unless you possess historical evidence which I would be
>> unaware of. I doubt that.
>>
>> regards,
>> SG
>
> In fact, Mr. Golescu is SOOOOOOOOO not antisemitic, that he has
> actually become a kind of advocate for the very opposite of
> antisemitism.
>
> But Golescu always has a tendency to go to the very extremes.
> Communists are not simply communits. Oh, no. They are murderous,
> fanatically atheistic, crypto-Fascists as well. Karl Marx is
> Karlfucking Marx, his political dream a "hypocritical utopia", as
> though Karl Marx didn't actually believe that he was creating a utopia,
> but simply doing so with ulterior hypocritical motives. One can only
> presume that had Mr. Golescu been alive, he would have loyally served
> the esteemed former Senator from Wisconsin, Mr. Joseph McCarthy, in his
> pathetic witch-hunts. He probably follows Pat Robertson today. He still
> refuses to watch a Joseph Losey movie. even today.
>
> There is such a well-spring of hatred in this person that one hates to
> imagine how he would perform the masterpieces of the piano literature.
> And how, one wonders, would he behave should he have to teach a WASP
> student who is flirting with Marxism? I can imagine the ruler landing
> on that poor sod's fingers with a special degree of vehemence.
>
> TD
>
There are some things (and people) that it is perferctly appropriate to
hate.
Ian Pace
"Jan Winter" <na...@provider.com> wrote in message
news:43ca9108...@news.individual.net...
> On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:20:57 GMT, "Ian Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> wrote:
>
>>"SG" <SGG...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1137304682.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>> I abhor antisemitism. I do NOT buy into the antisemitic theory
>>> according to which antisemitism would "simply" be one brand of racism
>>> among many others. History shows that antisemitism, either overt or
>>> under its various far-right (more recently far-left) disguises, is THE
>>> most pernicious, stubborn, hypocritical and virulent brand of racism,
>>> at least in the Western hemisphere.
>>
>>So who currently suffers more from racial discrimination in the US, say,
>>Jewish people or African-Americans? How about the situation of those whose
>>origin is from Arab or Muslim countries in Western Europe?
>
> Being a Jew in Moscow is more dangerous than being a Morrocan in
> Amsterdam, an Algerian in France or a Pakistani in London,
Please give some figures to back that up.
> even after
> 9/11 and the subway-murders in Madrid and London, because for them
> there is no Endlösung.
Why should that be any more likely nowadays for one group than for another?
> And the pogroms seem only to have taken place
> in Australia up to now and not supported by the authorities
>
> So you better come back to earth.
I think you should, not least to the situation of Muslim people in your own
country.
And maybe you'd answer my point about people in the US?
Ian
Frank Berger
>
> rkhalona wrote:
>
>> How long will you (and others) lament far-right crap? We live in it
>> now
>
> You mean we live now in a "far-right" society - so we need to vote for
> a Democrat in 2008 so that the present administration leaves the White
> House... but, wait a minute, were this indeed a far right
> administration in the true sense of the words (you know, that you
> dislike a Bush administration does not make them more "fascist" than a
> Clinton administration would be rendered "communist" by the fact that,
> I don't know, Bob Harper may have not liked it), they would not leave
> the White House, but instate martial law, jail any political
> opposition, outlaw classical music and Simon Roberts forever. Is that
> what you believe is bond to happen? If not, don't you believe you're
> stretching the sense of "far right" to in fact mean "more to the right
> than Ramon would like it"?
>
> regards,
> SG
>
It's all a matter of perspective. When you're far enough left, you can't
see the difference between the middle and the right or the right and the far
right. It's equally true the other way around, of course.
Ian Pace
"John W. Kennedy" <jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:hfwyf.39$pp1...@fe11.lga...
> Ian Pace wrote:
>> "SG" <SGG...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1137304682.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> I abhor antisemitism. I do NOT buy into the antisemitic theory
>>> according to which antisemitism would "simply" be one brand of racism
>>> among many others. History shows that antisemitism, either overt or
>>> under its various far-right (more recently far-left) disguises, is THE
>>> most pernicious, stubborn, hypocritical and virulent brand of racism,
>>> at least in the Western hemisphere.
>>
>> So who currently suffers more from racial discrimination in the US, say,
>> Jewish people or African-Americans? How about the situation of those
>> whose origin is from Arab or Muslim countries in Western Europe?
>
> US Jews are at present seeing relatively little discrimination as a result
> of the theory espoused by such luminaries of the US right wing as Pat
> Robertson and Dick Cheney that the State of Israel is a necessary
> prerequisite to the descent of Tashlan.
Let's look back throughout the history of America - which group has suffered
the most discrimination, endured slavery and a quasi-apartheid situation,
and didn't even get the vote until the 1960s?
>
> (Doesn't change the fact that the NJ town I live in was Restricted within
> living memory, or that a proposed synagogue one town over was effectively
> zoned to death just a decade ago.)
>
> Now, if you're talking about anti-Black discrimination, yes, that's a good
> deal nastier. But it's a lot younger than anti-Semitism, having its origin
> only a few centuries ago in Whites' hysterical denial of guilt over
> slavery. And it's a lot less than it was when I was younger.
Its origins go back way further than that, notions of black peoples being
'inferior' and 'primitive' was part and parcel of the whole ideology that
was used to justify imperialism. I would hazard a guess that it has existed
ever since Europeans and Africans (after they developed into separate
peoples) came into contact with one another.
>
> European anti-Arab and anti-Muslim bias is, for the most part, perfectly
> ordinary anti-immigrant hysteria, a story that's been told over and over
> throughout history. (One might point to anti-Irish bias in 19th-century
> America.)
How about the Crusades (the ideologies of which continue to inflitrate some
contemporary discourse)? European (and American) anti-Arab and anti-Muslim
bias takes on a specifically pernicious form that differs from that towards
other non-Europeans (such as those from the Far East). And it's perpetuated
by neo-crusader ideologies like that of the abhorrent Samuel Huntingdon with
his talk of the 'Clash of Civilisations'. Though in the end, I think the
ideologies are cynically used to justify economic exploitation of that part
of the world, rich as it is in oil supplies.
Ian