What is the best transfer of Kempff’s Liszt?

Mandryka

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Sep 25, 2022, 3:41:12 AM9/25/22

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I’m thinking of the Années really. Interesting performances for me because in some sense anti-virtuosic, but the piano sound on the transfers I have is poor. Is there a good transfer?

Dan Koren

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Sep 25, 2022, 5:44:43 AM9/25/22

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This sounds a lot like asking for decaf -- why bother?
"Anti-virtuosic" Liszt is an oxymoron. Or maybe just
a moron ?!?

dk

Mandryka

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Sep 25, 2022, 7:13:21 AM9/25/22

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I got myself this, and it does sound a great improvement to me

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8061438--liszt-annees-de-pelerinage-italie-deux-legendes

Dan Koren

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Sep 25, 2022, 8:48:25 AM9/25/22

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On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 4:13:21 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> I got myself this, and it does sound a great improvement to me
>
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8061438--liszt-annees-de-pelerinage-italie-deux-legendes

It didn't improve the performance.

dk

HT

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Sep 25, 2022, 12:18:47 PM9/25/22

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Op zondag 25 september 2022 om 13:13:21 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:

> I got myself this, and it does sound a great improvement to me
>
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8061438--liszt-annees-de-pelerinage-italie-deux-legendes

Thanks! I'll order the CD. I'm familiar with Kempfs Légendes, like them, and am curious how the second Italy book sounds.

Henk

vhorowitz

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Sep 25, 2022, 1:43:03 PM9/25/22

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A critic known to us all has his “Dave’s Faves”….I’m waiting for a new youtube series called “Dan’s Pans”, which I’m very sure is a massively bigger pile than his “faves”. I’m also pretty sure a healthy majority of his pans would be MY Faves. If I had to restrict myself to Dan’s likes I would have long since given up listening long ago, but I suppose for some, they’re happy to have pat criticisms and blanket judgements restrict their listening choices? For me, life’s too short to dismiss SO much that may have its faults, but much to treasure as well. I’m going to keep enjoying Kempff’s mid 70s (and earlier) Liszt, and yes, it sounds wonderful on the Pentatone SACD. So what if he’s not a “digital” virtuoso, he’s a unique, virtuoso colorist and is personal without being perverse.

Frank Berger

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Sep 25, 2022, 2:15:08 PM9/25/22

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Not sure why you're targeting Hurwitz here. Just because some people like listening to his review and might even agree with them for the most part does not mean their choices are restricted in any manner. You could say the same about any critic and their followers.

Has Hurwitz panned Kempff's Liszt? I know he praised his Two Legendes.

Mandryka

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Sep 25, 2022, 2:15:26 PM9/25/22

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Ah, let me take it all back.

The recordings I want a good transfer of are the 1950s ones.

Mandryka

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Sep 25, 2022, 2:25:01 PM9/25/22

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I was sitting there thinking "these sound good, but why don't they have the magic." And then I realised . . . . .

Mandryka

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Sep 25, 2022, 2:28:24 PM9/25/22

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I've never liked 70s Kempff, apart from maybe some of the Beethoven sonatas.

Mandryka

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Sep 25, 2022, 2:34:07 PM9/25/22

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I'll have to stick with the sound on his Great Pianists Edition.

mINE109

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Sep 25, 2022, 3:17:22 PM9/25/22

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On 9/25/22 1:34 PM, Mandryka wrote:

>>>> Ah, let me take it all back.
>>>>
>>>> The recordings I want a good transfer of are the 1950s ones.
>>> I was sitting there thinking "these sound good, but why don't
>>> they have the magic." And then I realised . . . . .
>> I've never liked 70s Kempff, apart from maybe some of the Beethoven
>> sonatas.
> I'll have to stick with the sound on his Great Pianists Edition.

That explains that: spotify has two, one probably from the Decca box on
Eloquence, which is magical (based on St Francis) but not in especially
great sound.

OTOH, the Pentatone sacd is about $12 delivered and in quad at Presto.

Graham

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Sep 25, 2022, 3:18:25 PM9/25/22

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Try his Goldbergs. The most trying version in the catalogue!

Frank Berger

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Sep 25, 2022, 3:40:45 PM9/25/22

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Neither the Liszt Legacy nor Eloquence compilations sound better then GPOC?

Mandryka

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Sep 25, 2022, 5:22:29 PM9/25/22

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I can’t get the eloquence release in the UK. Maybe someone in France can check this and comment on the sound

https://www.qobuz.com/fr-fr/album/kempff-plays-liszt-wilhelm-kempff/0002894786979

Mandryka

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Sep 25, 2022, 5:23:09 PM9/25/22

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His 1950s Liszt is astonishingly good!

vhorowitz

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Sep 25, 2022, 5:35:48 PM9/25/22

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Was I that unclear? I wasn’t in any way criticizing Dave Hurwitz’ “Dave’s Faves”….I enjoy them quite a bit in fact. I was referring to Dan’s usual one work snark-off of Kempff above, and that HE should start his own youtube series, Dan’s Pans.

Frank Berger

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Sep 25, 2022, 5:50:47 PM9/25/22

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Why can't you order it from "overseas?"

Frank Berger

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Sep 25, 2022, 5:53:33 PM9/25/22

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Can't you order from amazon UK?

https://tinyurl.com/52hsmm27

Frank Berger

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Sep 25, 2022, 5:55:41 PM9/25/22

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On 9/25/2022 5:35 PM, vhorowitz wrote:

Top posting because you did:

I mis-read "Dan's Pans" as "Dave's Pans." My fault entirely.

Frank Berger

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Sep 25, 2022, 6:05:05 PM9/25/22

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The 13-CD Kempff Legacy Box does not indicate any of the LIszt being re-mastered and I think that box post-dates the 2-CD Eloquence set.

Dan Koren

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Sep 25, 2022, 7:19:42 PM9/25/22

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On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 12:18:25 PM UTC-7, Graham wrote:
> On 2022-09-25 3:44 a.m., Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 12:41:12 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> >>
> >> I’m thinking of the Années really. Interesting performances
> >> for me because in some sense anti-virtuosic, but the piano
> >> sound on the transfers I have is poor. Is there a good transfer?
> >
> > This sounds a lot like asking for decaf -- why bother?
> > "Anti-virtuosic" Liszt is an oxymoron. Or maybe just
> > a moron ?!?
>

> Try his Goldbergs. The most trying version in the catalogue!

The meaning of "trying" in the sentence above is
not clear to me. I am inclined to think it stands
for boring and pedantic. Please correct me if I
am wrong.

I don't have to "try" his Goldbergs. I heard him perform
them "live" during the 1970s. Note the quotes around
"live". As a pianist, Kempff was a cartoon character
post WWII.

My dad took lessons with him during the 1930s,
and had to hide from him the fact he was Jewish.
He confirmed Kempff had changed a lot after WWII
and his playing lost a great deal of vitality and color.
As far as my ears can tell, Kempff's finest recordings
were the Pre-WWII WTC and Beethoven sonatas. His
post-WWII sound rather lifeless.

dk

Dan Koren

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Sep 25, 2022, 7:22:05 PM9/25/22

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On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 2:23:09 PM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
>
> His 1950s Liszt is astonishingly good!

For a handicapped pianist ?!?

Can you provide evidence in the form of a
link to a some audio files available on the
internet?

dk

Dan Koren

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Sep 25, 2022, 7:30:38 PM9/25/22

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On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 10:43:03 AM UTC-7, vhorowitz wrote:
>
> A critic known to us all has his “Dave’s Faves”….I’m waiting for a
> new youtube series called “Dan’s Pans”, which I’m very sure is a
> massively bigger pile than his “faves”.

I have no interest in marketing or promoting my personal views.
DH does it as a business, and it definitely helps some people
find their musical bearings until they develop the ability to
listen by themselves.

> I’m also pretty sure a healthy majority of his pans would be MY
> Faves. If I had to restrict myself to Dan’s likes I would have long
> since given up listening long ago, but I suppose for some, they’re
> happy to have pat criticisms and blanket judgements restrict their
> listening choices? For me, life’s too short to dismiss SO much that
> may have its faults, but much to treasure as well. I’m going to keep
> enjoying Kempff’s mid 70s (and earlier) Liszt, and yes, it sounds
> wonderful on the Pentatone SACD.

Whatever makes one happy makes one happy. I have no intent
to prevent anyone from listening to what and whom they like.

> So what if he’s not a “digital” virtuoso, he’s a unique, virtuoso
> colorist and is personal without being perverse.

Any claims Kempff was a "colorist" must be taken as an analogy
to those early BW movies that were artificially re-colored. Kempff
did not sound at all "live" as he sounded on recordings. But if one
likes to fool oneself with the notion he was a "unique, virtuoso
colorist", why not? Delusions can and do sometimes make
people happy.

dk

Herman

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Sep 25, 2022, 8:51:48 PM9/25/22

to

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 1:30:38 AM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Whatever makes one happy makes one happy. I have no intent
> to prevent anyone from listening to what and whom they like.
>

You're a terrible liar or just a mental zero. Probably both, who cares?

This newsgroup is full of your telling people in all-caps they are "BRAINFUCKED IMBECILE NAZIS" if they do not agree with your rather crazy tastes. Which is why virtually every member with sense has left due to your online psychopath behavior, so spare RMCR your hypocritical pseudo self reflection - you have none.

Paul Alsing

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Sep 25, 2022, 10:35:08 PM9/25/22

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Tell us how you *really* feel...

Graham

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Sep 26, 2022, 12:05:33 AM9/26/22

to

On 2022-09-25 5:19 p.m., Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 12:18:25 PM UTC-7, Graham wrote:
>> On 2022-09-25 3:44 a.m., Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 12:41:12 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I’m thinking of the Années really. Interesting performances
>>>> for me because in some sense anti-virtuosic, but the piano
>>>> sound on the transfers I have is poor. Is there a good transfer?
>>>
>>> This sounds a lot like asking for decaf -- why bother?
>>> "Anti-virtuosic" Liszt is an oxymoron. Or maybe just
>>> a moron ?!?
>>
>> Try his Goldbergs. The most trying version in the catalogue!
>
> The meaning of "trying" in the sentence above is
> not clear to me. I am inclined to think it stands
> for boring and pedantic. Please correct me if I
> am wrong.
>

Exhausting, exasperating, difficult to bear.

Mandryka

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Sep 26, 2022, 12:08:21 AM9/26/22

to

It’s strange that after such an original way with the aria it becomes a mainstream mid century modern grand piano interpretation.

In the 1950s he recorded some of his own Bach transcriptions. I like these very much.

Dan Koren

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Sep 26, 2022, 1:40:24 AM9/26/22

to

On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 9:05:33 PM UTC-7, Graham wrote:
> On 2022-09-25 5:19 p.m., Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 12:18:25 PM UTC-7, Graham wrote:
> >>
> >> Try his Goldbergs. The most trying version in the catalogue!
> >
> > The meaning of "trying" in the sentence above is
> > not clear to me. I am inclined to think it stands
> > for boring and pedantic. Please correct me if I
> > am wrong.
> >
> Exhausting, exasperating, difficult to bear.

Thank you! ;-)

dk

HT

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Sep 26, 2022, 5:11:22 AM9/26/22

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Op maandag 26 september 2022 om 01:19:42 UTC+2 schreef dan....@gmail.com:

> As far as my ears can tell, Kempff's finest recordings
> were the Pre-WWII WTC and Beethoven sonatas. His
> post-WWII sound rather lifeless.

Before RMCR colleagues start thinking that the most repeated opinion is the generally accepted one - I've always liked Kempff's post-WWII recordings. In particular his Beethoven and Schubert. Whether he could play what he recorded, I don't know. I never heard him live. However, the BBC's live recordings I have, leave little to be desired. The same goes for the few live videos I've seen on YT.

Henk

Dan Koren

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Sep 26, 2022, 6:03:26 AM9/26/22

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On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 2:11:22 AM UTC-7, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> Op maandag 26 september 2022 om 01:19:42 UTC+2 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
>
> > As far as my ears can tell, Kempff's finest recordings
> > were the Pre-WWII WTC and Beethoven sonatas. His
> > post-WWII sound rather lifeless.
>
> Before RMCR colleagues start thinking that the most
> repeated opinion is the generally accepted one - I've
> always liked Kempff's post-WWII recordings. In particular
> his Beethoven and Schubert. Whether he could play what
> he recorded, I don't know. I never heard him live.

I heard him both live and on records. My dad pushed me.
He held Fischer, Kempff and Gieseking in high esteem
(though not Backhaus). My dad admired them for their
"taste" and "delicacy". He could not stand the Russian
piano school and Russian trained pianists. He thought
they were loud, rough and vulgar. Go figure.....

As to Kempff's Beethoven and Schubert readings, he
could not hold a candle to any of a dozen Russian
pianists. Anemic, inexpressive, mealy mouthed,
mechanical and boring.

dk

Dan Koren

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Sep 26, 2022, 6:19:03 AM9/26/22

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Dan Koren

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Sep 26, 2022, 6:23:38 AM9/26/22

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Here is Kempff's metronome driven Chopin Barcarolle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMLjXQslVQc

and here is one performed by a real artist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVHiixjai9o

dk

Dan Koren

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Sep 26, 2022, 6:37:49 AM9/26/22

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Here is Kempff pounding a Faure Nocturne alla marcia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYc6Rl8fsSA

Here is a real pianist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLnMVfE69jg

and another one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y67VNE3GQbE

dk

Mandryka

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Sep 26, 2022, 7:20:53 AM9/26/22

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Here's a lovely D 960

https://open.spotify.com/track/7MnRCDHNGN8aFuuUmRvDMJ?si=e7244bdeea8349a5

The other thing I really liked recently was a K 491 with Bruno Maderna in Scheveningen in 1967.

HT

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Sep 26, 2022, 10:44:31 AM9/26/22

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nce by Harry Datyner, one of Edwin Fischer's
> > pupils.
> Here is Kempff's metronome driven Chopin Barcarolle:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMLjXQslVQc
>
> and here is one performed by a real artist:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVHiixjai9o

Kempff's Chopin is ridiculous, not just the Barcarolle. My reference version for the Barcarolle is Lipatti.

Henk

HT

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Sep 26, 2022, 10:44:38 AM9/26/22

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Op maandag 26 september 2022 om 12:19:03 UTC+2 schreef dan....@gmail.com:

Thanks! Rubinstein, Kempff and Fischer are easy to listen to, whatever their technical or other shortcomings. They keep the music simple.

Henk

Mandryka

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Sep 26, 2022, 10:49:18 AM9/26/22

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See what you think of this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XXnJiXPlrc&ab_channel=ADGO

HT

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Sep 26, 2022, 11:04:22 AM9/26/22

to

> > Here is Kempff's metronome driven Chopin Barcarolle:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMLjXQslVQc
> >
> > and here is one performed by a real artist:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVHiixjai9o
> Here is Kempff pounding a Faure Nocturne alla marcia:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYc6Rl8fsSA
>
> Here is a real pianist:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLnMVfE69jg
>
> and another one:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y67VNE3GQbE

Kempff is out of his comfort zone here, but it's a sympathetic version. It may sound strange, but I cannot hear the pounding. François and Thyssens are great.

Henk

HT

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Sep 26, 2022, 11:05:29 AM9/26/22

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Op maandag 26 september 2022 om 12:03:26 UTC+2 schreef dan....@gmail.com:

Your parents obviously had excellent taste (Haskil, Kempff) - and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they also liked Lipatti.
The Russians in Stalin's days were great (at least most of them) but they only represent one way of playing the piano.

Henk

Dan Koren

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Sep 26, 2022, 3:25:53 PM9/26/22

to

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 8:05:29 AM UTC-7, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> Op maandag 26 september 2022 om 12:03:26 UTC+2 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
> > On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 2:11:22 AM UTC-7, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > > Op maandag 26 september 2022 om 01:19:42 UTC+2 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
> > >
> > > > As far as my ears can tell, Kempff's finest recordings
> > > > were the Pre-WWII WTC and Beethoven sonatas. His
> > > > post-WWII sound rather lifeless.
> > >
> > > Before RMCR colleagues start thinking that the most
> > > repeated opinion is the generally accepted one - I've
> > > always liked Kempff's post-WWII recordings. In particular
> > > his Beethoven and Schubert. Whether he could play what
> > > he recorded, I don't know. I never heard him live.
> > I heard him both live and on records. My dad pushed me.
> > He held Fischer, Kempff and Gieseking in high esteem
> > (though not Backhaus). My dad admired them for their
> > "taste" and "delicacy". He could not stand the Russian
> > piano school and Russian trained pianists. He thought
> > they were loud, rough and vulgar. Go figure.....
> >
> > As to Kempff's Beethoven and Schubert readings, he
> > could not hold a candle to any of a dozen Russian
> > pianists. Anemic, inexpressive, mealy mouthed,
> > mechanical and boring.
>

> Your parents obviously had excellent taste (Haskil,
> Kempff) -

My parents studied the piano and wanted to become
professional concert pianists. WWII put and end to
their plans.

> and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they also liked
> Lipatti.

They didn't. They called him a "kolter tuchas". They
liked Haskil better. They worshipped Cortot and
adored Rubinstein.

> The Russians in Stalin's days were great (at least
> most of them) but they only represent one way of
> playing the piano.

The Russians represented many ways of playing
the piano, though of course not all the possible
ways, and still do. There is more variety of style
within the Russian piano school than in any other
piano school we know about.

dk

Dan Koren

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Sep 26, 2022, 5:14:04 PM9/26/22

to

And the Russian piano school still produces more
top tier pianists by any metric than any other piano
school (though South Korea is inching closer).

Pletnev, Sokolov, and Volodos have pushed the
boundaries of the imaginable and of the possible
to levels never seen/heard before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr4yH25qNdA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v331b4l1hZU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsOV0M43Pr8

HT

unread,

Sep 26, 2022, 6:28:38 PM9/26/22

to

>
> Pletnev, Sokolov, and Volodos have pushed the
> boundaries of the imaginable and of the possible
> to levels never seen/heard before.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr4yH25qNdA
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v331b4l1hZU
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsOV0M43Pr8

Thanks. These performances are impressive - too impressive for me, considering that Backhaus recorded my favourite Brahms #2 and Crochet my favourite Bach WTC.

Growing up with two talented pianists, and Cortot and Rubinstein - an ideal musical beginning!

Henk

Pluted Pup

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Sep 27, 2022, 1:09:22 AM9/27/22

to

On Sep 25, 2022, Mandryka wrote
(in article<234f68d6-bc4c-400e...@googlegroups.com>):

> On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 7:28:24 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 7:25:01 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 7:15:26 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 6:43:03 PM UTC+1, vhorowitz wrote:
> > > > > A critic known to us all has his “Dave’s Faves”….I’m waiting for a new youtube series called “Dan’s Pans”, which I’m very sure is a massively bigger pile than his “faves”. I’m also pretty sure a healthy majority of his pans would be MY Faves. If I had to restrict myself to Dan’s likes I would have long since given up listening long ago, but I suppose for some, they’re happy to have pat criticisms and blanket judgements restrict their listening choices? For me, life’s too short to dismiss SO much that may have its faults, but much to treasure as well. I’m going to keep enjoying Kempff’s mid 70s (and earlier) Liszt, and yes, it sounds wonderful on the Pentatone SACD. So what if he’s not a “digital” virtuoso, he’s a unique, virtuoso colorist and is personal without being perverse.
> > > > > On Sunday, September 25, 2022 at 12:18:47 PM UTC-4, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > > > > > Op zondag 25 september 2022 om 13:13:21 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:
> > > > > > > I got myself this, and it does sound a great improvement to me
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8061438--liszt-annees-de-pelerinage-italie-deux-legendes
> > > > > > Thanks! I'll order the CD. I'm familiar with Kempfs Légendes, like them, and am curious how the second Italy book sounds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Henk
> > > > Ah, let me take it all back.
> > > >
> > > > The recordings I want a good transfer of are the 1950s ones.
> > > I was sitting there thinking "these sound good, but why don't they have the magic." And then I realised . . . . .
> > I've never liked 70s Kempff, apart from maybe some of the Beethoven sonatas.
> I'll have to stick with the sound on his Great Pianists Edition.

I don't know the answer but there is a new release of the 1950's
DeuxLegendes andexcerpts of Annees in the recent 13 CD box set
The Decca Legacy.

Herman

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Sep 27, 2022, 3:12:59 AM9/27/22

to

On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 9:25:53 PM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> My parents studied the piano and wanted to become
> professional concert pianists. WWII put and end to
> their plans.
> >

well, more online psychotherapy.
You may or may not be aware that many people have (had) parents whose dreams did not pan out, and in many cases those parents did not face reality (their own limitations), but instead blamed reality.
And in the worst cases they force their kids to adopt and live that same warped world view.
You are using an all-comers music newsgroup to act out your trauma, in the same way the ansermet / trumpet mouth piece guy did, ansermetmaniac. He was a pest, you're yelling at people who do not share your traumatized tastes all the time.
Obviously that's what the internet is for. For people who cannot face reality. You talk about listening to one piece of music "all day, forever" if it's any good. That's a baby's view of life. Sucking that tit all day, forever. That's not how people live, not should they want to.
There is no "Russian Piano School". There are many different originally Russian pianists, and some are horribly bad (like Denis Matsuev, god, I hope I never have to hear that butcher again). Sokolov and Pletnev are entirely sui generis, it's complete idiocy to think that a man Sokolov's age is still playing his stuff the way he was taught.
That's a crazy reductive idea, just like simple-minded people always think there is a direct line to Liszt or Chopin, via teachers, even though we can hear performers change over their lifetimes, and so do teachers. It's a closed-mind way of thinking, which is what you do all the f-cking time. And that may be fine for you, since, basically you're telling yourself all the time you agree with yourself. But you are also carpet bombing RMCR with "I agree with myself and anyone who doesn't is an imbecile brainfucked nazi."
BTW you also seem to be unaware that the prefix "Russian" is, at the moment, not super popular. But of course you're not living in time.

Herman

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Sep 27, 2022, 3:30:27 AM9/27/22

to

Piano music is just a subset of classical music. Not everyone is interested. People like Crazy Koren have pretty much caused me to lose all interest in hard core piano music (always those same dumb pieces).

Russian pianists are that subset's subset, and in most cases a guaranty for a stylistically badly warped view of all music non-Russian composed music.

There are so many wonderful, interesting performers; there is so much wonderful, interesting repertoire that never entered the Stalinist "Russian" purview.

I remember a concert in which the Mariinsky Orchestra was playing Stravinsky's Agon, Gergiev conducting. This piece was composed after Stalin's death, for the New York City Ballet. The inspiration was French 18 th C plus 20th C USA. The orchestra just couldn't do it, they barely made it to the end. That's the Russian School for ya.

HT

unread,

Sep 27, 2022, 5:04:38 AM9/27/22

to

Op maandag 26 september 2022 om 16:49:18 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:

This is worse than I expected. Perhaps the worst Barcarolle ever. Bozhanov can be an interesting musician when he keeps his pseudo-romanticism in control. Here he is completely carried away by his daemon.

Henk

Mandryka

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Sep 27, 2022, 5:08:41 AM9/27/22

to

Yes I can see why you say that, but I think the fluidity of it and the delicacy of it, are beautiful.

Have you heard Pletnev’s Verbier performance this year? Unfortunately I can’t see it online and I’m reluctant to upload it because my copy was a gift. But I think it may well be your sort of thing.

Let’s be absolutely clear about something, the worst Barcarolle ever, as everyone agrees, is Michel Block’s.

Mandryka

unread,

Sep 27, 2022, 5:11:48 AM9/27/22

to

By the way, while we’re on Chopin, I’ll report that I’ve suddenly developed a taste for Riszard Bakst’s mazurkas - initially I was a bit repelled by the colours, but now I find it all more tolerable for some reason.

HT

unread,

Sep 27, 2022, 8:35:28 AM9/27/22

to

Op dinsdag 27 september 2022 om 11:08:41 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:

Thanks. I'll try to find Pletnev at Verbier. BTW, I must have been lucky: Block's Barcarolle is unknown to me.

Henk

Frank Berger

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Sep 27, 2022, 9:13:05 PM9/27/22

to

On 9/25/2022 8:51 PM, Herman wrote:
> On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 1:30:38 AM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Whatever makes one happy makes one happy. I have no intent
>> to prevent anyone from listening to what and whom they like.
>>
> You're a terrible liar or just a mental zero. Probably both, who cares?
>
> This newsgroup is full of your telling people in all-caps they are "BRAINFUCKED IMBECILE NAZIS" if they do not agree with your rather crazy tastes. Which is why virtually every member with sense has left due to your online psychopath behavior, so spare RMCR your hypocritical pseudo self reflection - you have none.

Herman you have just made the same idiotic mistake AGAIN. Telling people they are whatever for disagreeing is not the sames as "preventing" anyone from listening. It's really a simply concept. If one of you is a mental zero, it isn't Dan.

Frank Berger

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Sep 27, 2022, 9:18:42 PM9/27/22

to

Not re-mastered.

Frank Berger

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Sep 27, 2022, 9:24:43 PM9/27/22

to

On 9/27/2022 3:12 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 9:25:53 PM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> My parents studied the piano and wanted to become
>> professional concert pianists. WWII put and end to
>> their plans.
>>>
> well, more online psychotherapy.
> You may or may not be aware that many people have (had) parents whose dreams did not pan out, and in many cases those parents did not face reality (their own limitations), but instead blamed >reality.

And you are definitely NOT aware (because you are an idiot), that the war could have put an end to Dan's parent's plans EVEN IF they hadn't the talent to succeed. Wrap your tiny brain around that.

More psychology: I think you are a fruit cake.

Herman

unread,

Sep 28, 2022, 4:09:37 AM9/28/22

to

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 3:24:43 AM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> And you are definitely NOT aware (because you are an idiot), that the war could have put an end to Dan's parent's plans EVEN IF they hadn't the talent to succeed. Wrap your tiny brain around that.
>

Your hypothesis doesn't make any sense, sorry. Perhaps it's another case of your putting a negative too many or too few in. This happens a lot.

As usual the main point eludes you, because of your gotcha thing.

RCMR is not the place to avenge the notion that your parents (both!) should have become famous musicians and thus bash any performer they would not have admired. If you want to do this, you go to a bar and talk to the guy who pours the drinks. And he will agree so much...

Herman

unread,

Sep 28, 2022, 4:16:28 AM9/28/22

to

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 10:09:37 AM UTC+2, Herman wrote:
>
>
> RCMR is not the place to avenge the notion that your parents (both!) should have become famous musicians and thus bash any performer they would not have admired. If you want to do this, you go to a bar and talk to the guy who pours the drinks. And he will agree so much...

You also tell the bartender you spent twenty years of your life in music schools and have nothing to show for it, except spending your days online bashing performers who do have a career, and somehow this has something to do with Beethoven being the bad guy.

Bartender will understand. He thinks Beethoven's a dog.

Herman

unread,

Sep 28, 2022, 4:45:46 AM9/28/22

to

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 3:24:43 AM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>

> More psychology: I think you are a fruit cake.

You would have to either remigrate to the Fifties for this to land succesfully, or go to a place (Russia or Hungary?) where antisemitism blossoms along with homophobia.

Dan Koren

unread,

Sep 28, 2022, 4:46:06 AM9/28/22

to

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 1:09:37 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
>
> RCMR is not the place to avenge the notion that your parents (both!)
> should have become famous musicians and thus bash any performer
> they would not have admired. If you want to do this, you go to a bar
> and talk to the guy who pours the drinks. And he will agree so much...

One must to be severely deranged and paranoid to read anything
like this in what I wrote. You always attempt to read something
between lines that is not there, or may or may not be there.

I never said, or ever so slightly implied, my parents "should have
become" "famous musicians" -- can you provide any evidence I
did? All I said was that my parents studied piano intending to
become professional concert artists. No more, no less, and
nothing else. I also stated their plans were interrupted as a
result of WWII. Do you have any idea how many Jews' life
plans were destroyed by WWII? How about 6 million? Four
out of five persons in my extended family were murdered
during WWII.

You did not even notice that I dislike many pianists one or
both of my parents liked (e.g. Kempff, Gieseking, Haskil)
and that I like some pianists my parents disliked, e.g.
Richter, Cziffra or Sofronitsky. How could anyone claim
I "bash any performer they would not have admired" ?!?

What am I "avenging" by simply mentioning life events?

FUCK YOU !!!

Frank Berger

unread,

Sep 28, 2022, 9:54:16 AM9/28/22

to

On 9/28/2022 4:09 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 3:24:43 AM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>> And you are definitely NOT aware (because you are an idiot), that the war could have put an end to Dan's parent's plans EVEN IF they hadn't the talent to succeed. Wrap your tiny brain around that.
>>

> Your hypothesis doesn't make any sense, sorry.

You can't even tell an hypothesis from a simple fact. Because the simple statement of fact is above your level of comprehension.

Frank Berger

unread,

Sep 28, 2022, 9:55:24 AM9/28/22

to

Theory confirmed.

HT

unread,

Sep 28, 2022, 12:57:55 PM9/28/22

to

> You did not even notice that I dislike many pianists one or
> both of my parents liked (e.g. Kempff, Gieseking, Haskil)
> and that I like some pianists my parents disliked, e.g.
> Richter, Cziffra or Sofronitsky. How could anyone claim
> I "bash any performer they would not have admired" ?!?

In all fairness, no one can say that. Clearly, your parents suffered the fate of many parents: having no influence over their offspring's musical tastes. You told us more than once that "Santa Clara" was one of your mother's favourites, and certainly not yours. About your father's teacher, Kempff, we never heard a single word of praise from you.

Henk

Mandryka

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Sep 28, 2022, 3:22:44 PM9/28/22

to

Everyone, and I mean everyone with refined sensibilities, praises this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26GnXDZKOIw&ab_channel=uchukyoku1

Mandryka

unread,

Sep 28, 2022, 3:39:58 PM9/28/22

to

Unbelievably good very early Kempff Liszt here

https://open.spotify.com/album/0OS6jAACERS4SWPIpyDLy5

HT

unread,

Sep 28, 2022, 4:19:17 PM9/28/22

to

Op woensdag 28 september 2022 om 21:22:44 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:

> Everyone, and I mean everyone with refined sensibilities, praises this
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26GnXDZKOIw&ab_channel=uchukyoku1

Facts, not sensibilities: Kempff's transcriptions are of high quality, and there is no better performer than the transcriber himself.

Henk

HT

unread,

Sep 28, 2022, 4:21:09 PM9/28/22

to

Op woensdag 28 september 2022 om 21:39:58 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:

> Unbelievably good very early Kempff Liszt here
>
> https://open.spotify.com/album/0OS6jAACERS4SWPIpyDLy5

In particular the Penseroso.

Henk

Mandryka

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Sep 28, 2022, 5:44:58 PM9/28/22

to

I think the Fauré nocturne is wonderful, ethereal and imaginative, delicate and nuanced. Beautiful, refined, phrasing and touch and colour.

MickeyBoy

unread,

Sep 28, 2022, 6:57:34 PM9/28/22

to

On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 2:39:58 PM UTC-5, Mandryka wrote:
> Unbelievably good very early Kempff Liszt here
>
> https://open.spotify.com/album/0OS6jAACERS4SWPIpyDLy5

The same transcription is on Steinway Legends from 1975. Kempff's performance of most of Italie on Pentatone 4-channel is beyond delicious. Every time I listen it sticks in my mind for days.

Message has been deleted

Mandryka

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Sep 28, 2022, 11:30:42 PM9/28/22

to

I just don’t enjoy the later performances, despite the good sound. I can’t say what it is and I could well be deceiving myself, but for me by the 1970s the magic has gone.

MickeyBoy

unread,

Sep 29, 2022, 8:53:02 AM9/29/22

to

Having just been diagnosed with an arthritic thumb, I wonder if what you hear could be described as an arthritic quality. I hear a wonderfully musical combination of micro level phrasing and touch, at a cost of less big-picture sweep and declamation. To achieve an ideal balance of the low and the high levels in a performance is impossible, but a very deft concentration of the low level cognizant of one's digital limitations can fit together to form a voice of the piece that speaks well.

Pluted Pup

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Sep 29, 2022, 2:08:16 PM9/29/22

to

> > > > > > > > Thanks! I'll order the CD. I'm familiar with Kempfs Légendes, like them, and am curious how the second Italy book sounds.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Henk
> > > > > > Ah, let me take it all back.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The recordings I want a good transfer of are the 1950s ones.
> > > > > I was sitting there thinking "these sound good, but why don't they have the magic." And then I realised . . . . .
> > > > I've never liked 70s Kempff, apart from maybe some of the Beethoven sonatas.
> > > I'll have to stick with the sound on his Great Pianists Edition.
> >
> > I don't know the answer but there is a new release of the 1950's
> > DeuxLegendes andexcerpts of Annees in the recent 13 CD box set
> > The Decca Legacy.
>
> Not re-mastered.

I tried but wasn't able to get the Eloquence CD of Kempff
Plays Liszt, and got the boxset when it came out recently.

Pluted Pup

unread,

Sep 29, 2022, 2:32:49 PM9/29/22

to

On Sep 28, 2022, Mandryka wrote
(in article<cd390c70-2bfc-4825...@googlegroups.com>):

> Unbelievably good very early Kempff Liszt here
>
> https://open.spotify.com/album/0OS6jAACERS4SWPIpyDLy5

or:

https://smile.amazon.com/Wilhelm-Kempff-Rare-Recordings/dp/B00004WJM4/

Spotify calls the Mozart 21st concerto "Elvira Madigan",

Kempff and the original Music And Arts CDs did not.

Both spotify and amazon get bad reviews for their weakness

in searching music, from the recent American Record Guide issue,

I have to agree on amazon as I know it by using it.

Pluted Pup

unread,

Sep 29, 2022, 2:36:52 PM9/29/22

to

On Sep 28, 2022, Herman wrote
(in article<e8b611e2-cec8-4282...@googlegroups.com>):

> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 3:24:43 AM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
> >
> >
> > More psychology: I think you are a fruit cake.
>
> You would have to either remigrate to the Fifties for this to land succesfully, or go to a place (Russia or Hungary?) where antisemitism blossoms along with homophobia.

Putin outlawed antisemitism, do you agree with this or
disagree?

Frank Berger

unread,

Sep 29, 2022, 2:58:04 PM9/29/22

to

Same mastering, I think.

Frank Berger

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Sep 29, 2022, 2:59:36 PM9/29/22

to

Yes. It seems the more specific you are the less likely you are to find what you are looking for.

Frank Berger

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Sep 29, 2022, 3:09:40 PM9/29/22

to

I don't know much about current antisemitism in Hungary, but government to government, Hungary is one of Israel's closest allies Europe. That's something. According to Wikipedia the Nazis murdered about 544,000 Hungarian Jews, with the cooperation of the Hungarian government. There are somewhere around 50,000-100,000 Jews living in Hungary today, as far as I can tell.

I realize your question was addressed to the fruit cake.

Dan Koren

unread,

Sep 30, 2022, 12:07:45 AM9/30/22

to

On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 9/29/2022 2:36 PM, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > On Sep 28, 2022, Herman wrote
> > (in article<e8b611e2-cec8-4282...@googlegroups.com>):
> >
> >> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 3:24:43 AM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>
> >>> More psychology: I think you are a fruit cake.
> >>
> >> You would have to either remigrate to the Fifties for
> >> this to land succesfully, or go to a place (Russia or
> >> Hungary?) where antisemitism blossoms along with
> >> homophobia.
> >
> > Putin outlawed antisemitism, do you agree with this
> > or disagree?
>
> I don't know much about current antisemitism in Hungary,
> but government to government, Hungary is one of Israel's
> closest allies Europe.

Evidence?

> That's something. According to Wikipedia the Nazis murdered
> about 544,000 Hungarian Jews, with the cooperation of the
> Hungarian government. There are somewhere around 50,000-
> 100,000 Jews living in Hungary today, as far as I can tell.

Anti-semitism or lack thereof is far more than a matter
between governments. Anti-Semitism is alive and thriving
in Hungary, government or not. It is deeply embedded in
the local culture, just as it is in Russian and other countries
in the vicinity. To put it bluntly, these are cultures that have
near zero tolerance for social, ethnic or religious diversity.

There are indeed Jews who live there, accepting calculated
risks because of various reasons -- mixed marriages or other
family ties, unmovable businesses or assets, or even blind
loyalty to the regimes or to its principles (I had someone like
this in my 2nd degree family).

Also see https://jewishjournal.com/culture/arts/178588/

dk

Frank Berger

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Sep 30, 2022, 12:38:55 AM9/30/22

to

On 9/30/2022 12:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 9/29/2022 2:36 PM, Pluted Pup wrote:
>>> On Sep 28, 2022, Herman wrote
>>> (in article<e8b611e2-cec8-4282...@googlegroups.com>):
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, September 28, 2022 at 3:24:43 AM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> More psychology: I think you are a fruit cake.
>>>>
>>>> You would have to either remigrate to the Fifties for
>>>> this to land succesfully, or go to a place (Russia or
>>>> Hungary?) where antisemitism blossoms along with
>>>> homophobia.
>>>
>>> Putin outlawed antisemitism, do you agree with this
>>> or disagree?
>>
>> I don't know much about current antisemitism in Hungary,
>> but government to government, Hungary is one of Israel's
>> closest allies Europe.
>
> Evidence?
>

Wikipedia. You can't get better than that.

>> That's something. According to Wikipedia the Nazis murdered
>> about 544,000 Hungarian Jews, with the cooperation of the
>> Hungarian government. There are somewhere around 50,000-
>> 100,000 Jews living in Hungary today, as far as I can tell.
>
> Anti-semitism or lack thereof is far more than a matter
> between governments.

Who said it wasn't.

Anti-Semitism is alive and thriving
> in Hungary,

as it is everywhere.

>government or not. It is deeply embedded in
> the local culture, just as it is in Russian and other countries
> in the vicinity. To put it bluntly, these are cultures that have
> near zero tolerance for social, ethnic or religious diversity.
>

I think "near zero" is a bit of an exaggeration, but OK.

> There are indeed Jews who live there, accepting calculated
> risks because of various reasons -- mixed marriages or other
> family ties, unmovable businesses or assets, or even blind
> loyalty to the regimes or to its principles (I had someone like
> this in my 2nd degree family).
>

> Also see https://jewishjournal.com/culture/arts/178588/
>

Interesting. His ideas about war and economics are wrong, but no matter. Not sure if I said this here (if I have Herman will inform us). Antisemitism is manifested in different ways. At one time everyone said the Jews killed Jesus. Some still believe but it's not really mainstream antisemitism any more. Then the Jews used the blood of Christian children to make matzah, Then the Jews control the banks, and more. All of these are more or less passé. The current mainstream manifestation is anti-Zionism. Though the anti-Zionism and antisemitism could theoretically by different, in practice the antisemites hate Israel because it is the collective Jew. Not because they abuse Palestinians. Few really believe in the Palestinian cause/

I head somewhere that antisemitism started when Abraham came to town. Before him, the rock-worshippers got along fine with the tree-worshippers. Abraham came along and said you're both wrong. Not only that, but you are committing a grave sin by not worshipping the one true God. No wonder he wasn't popular.

> dk

Dan Koren

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Sep 30, 2022, 1:11:49 AM9/30/22

to

On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 9:38:55 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 9/30/2022 12:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 12:09:40 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>
> > government or not. It is deeply embedded in
> > the local culture, just as it is in Russian and other countries
> > in the vicinity. To put it bluntly, these are cultures that have
> > near zero tolerance for social, ethnic or religious diversity.
> >
> I think "near zero" is a bit of an exaggeration, but OK.

I lived in those countries. You have not. Obviously if
one equates near zero to high risk of getting killed
or arrested or sent to the camps as soon as one
steps outside, this is not the case.

"Near zero" means that there is an extremely strong
current of opinion (stated or not) and shared belief
systems that tend to systematically push Jews out
of higher level positions in all walks of life and work.

One needs to look no farther than how Russia has
treated Jewish musicians. A very tiny fraction were
allowed to tour in the West relative to their standing
and proportions in the overall music scene.

For pianists, it was mainly Gilels and Berman. Other
top tier Jewisg pianists almost never toured outside
the Eastern bloc -- e.g. Zak, Flier, Ginzburg, Oborin,
Grinberg, Yudina, Margulis, Ugorsky, Mogilevsky,
Krainev, Feltsman, Faerman, Zilberstein, and so on.

I excluded Ashkenazy from this list because he was
officially allowed to emigrate (1963?) after marrying
his Icelandic sweetheart. I heard rumors this was
part of a deal to convince him to compete in the
1962 Tchaikovsky competition to prevent another
embarrassment by a Western pianist -- and then
John Ogdon happened!

For violinists, it was mainly Oistrakh and Kogan.

dk

Frank Berger

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Sep 30, 2022, 1:58:52 AM9/30/22

to

Do you think I'm arguing with you?

Dan Koren

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Sep 30, 2022, 2:01:56 AM9/30/22

to

On Thursday, September 29, 2022 at 10:58:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> Do you think I'm arguing with you?

How dare you not argue with me? ;-)

You are not arguing, however you
spend more time and more words
picking nits instead of proclaiming
The Truth! ;-)

dk

M. A.

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Oct 3, 2022, 6:53:48 PM10/3/22

to

hvt...@xs4all.nl schrieb am Dienstag, 27. September 2022 um 14:35:28 UTC+2:
> Op dinsdag 27 september 2022 om 11:08:41 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:
> > On Tuesday, September 27, 2022 at 10:04:38 AM UTC+1, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > > Op maandag 26 september 2022 om 16:49:18 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:
> > > > On Monday, September 26, 2022 at 3:44:31 PM UTC+1, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> > > > > nce by Harry Datyner, one of Edwin Fischer's
> > > > > > > pupils.
> > > > > > Here is Kempff's metronome driven Chopin Barcarolle:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMLjXQslVQc
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and here is one performed by a real artist:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVHiixjai9o
> > > > > Kempff's Chopin is ridiculous, not just the Barcarolle. My reference version for the Barcarolle is Lipatti.
> > > > >
> > > > > Henk
> > > > See what you think of this
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XXnJiXPlrc&ab_channel=ADGO
> > > This is worse than I expected. Perhaps the worst Barcarolle ever. Bozhanov can be an interesting musician when he keeps his pseudo-romanticism in control. Here he is completely carried away by his daemon.
> > >
> > > Henk
> > Yes I can see why you say that, but I think the fluidity of it and the delicacy of it, are beautiful.
> >
> > Have you heard Pletnev’s Verbier performance this year? Unfortunately I can’t see it online and I’m reluctant to upload it because my copy was a gift. But I think it may well be your sort of thing.
> >
> > Let’s be absolutely clear about something, the worst Barcarolle ever, as everyone agrees, is Michel Block’s.
> Thanks. I'll try to find Pletnev at Verbier. BTW, I must have been lucky: Block's Barcarolle is unknown to me.
>
> Henk
Henk, if you have access to medici.tv, you can also watch it in HD. Watching Pletnev playing piano is for me like watching Kleiber conducting - part of the enjoyment of the music.

HT

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Oct 4, 2022, 2:38:46 PM10/4/22

to

> Henk, if you have access to medici.tv, you can also watch it in HD. Watching Pletnev playing piano is for me like watching Kleiber conducting - part of the enjoyment of the music.

Thanks! A great performance by Pletnev. His version of Op 61 is also great.

Henk

Mandryka

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Oct 4, 2022, 3:19:57 PM10/4/22

to

He makes a lovely sound come out of the Kawai.