Best "Winterreise"?
Juliet Stone
Winterrise are performed? Wilhelm Muller's poems which provide the
text for the songs were not originally published in the order in which
they were written. Schubert set an original collection of twelve poems
and only later discovered that there were actually twenty four. Does
it make sense to perform the songs in Muller's original order rather
than Schubert's mixed up version?
David Wilson-Johnson (baritone) and David Owen Norris (piano) recorded
a version using the 'correct' order and it was very well received, but
were they wrong to think that they knew better than Schubert how to
perform his music?!
On Wed, 31 May 2000 09:10:21 +0100, sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
(Richard Schultz) wrote:
>[followups to rec.music.classical.recordings]
>
>YoungAustrian (g.furxer...@utanet.at.invalid) wrote:
>
>: My theme: What is your favourite "Winterreise" by Schubert-
>: recording?? Do you prefer Tenors or Baritons? (or women
>: voices??).
>
>And just when you thought that things in rmcr were calming down. . .
>
>I personally prefer baritones, probably because I am a baritone (of
>no particularly great talent) myself, and that's how I "feel" the
>music. I like the F-D/Moore version (the one in the pseudo-complete
>set that was issued in three big boxes), and the Hotter version too.
>I have to admit that although I'm normally a fan of Hakan Hagegard,
>I found his "Winterreise" (with Schuback, released in 1984 or 1985)
>rather uninspired.
>
>-----
>Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
> "You go on playing Bach your way, and I'll go on playing him *his* way."
> -- Wanda Landowska
--
Juliet Stone
Multimedia Co-ordinator
Global Music Network
http://www.gmn.com
wk...@juno.com
correct address in .sigfile wrote:
> I have to admit that although I'm normally a fan of Hakan Hagegard,
> I found his "Winterreise" (with Schuback, released in 1984 or 1985)
> rather uninspired.
It's one of my favorites. Hagegard certainly chooses *not* to wear his
heart on his sleeve, and consistently makes his points by musical means,
without some of the emotive scenery-chewing of various and sundry other
singers. This isn't to say that a dramatic treatment isn't appropriate
- but there are certainly other ways to sing the cycle.
--
William D. Kasimer
wk...@juno.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Simon Roberts
: In article <8h2hdd$ia6$5...@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>,
: correct address in .sigfile wrote:
: > I have to admit that although I'm normally a fan of Hakan Hagegard,
: > I found his "Winterreise" (with Schuback, released in 1984 or 1985)
: > rather uninspired.
: It's one of my favorites. Hagegard certainly chooses *not* to wear his
: heart on his sleeve, and consistently makes his points by musical means,
: without some of the emotive scenery-chewing of various and sundry other
: singers. This isn't to say that a dramatic treatment isn't appropriate
: - but there are certainly other ways to sing the cycle.
Agree completely.
Simon
Celia A. Sgroi
anything. My *favorite* performance of "Winterreise" is the last F-D/Moore
version on DG. (BTW, according to a recent interview, F-D's favorite is
the 1966 DG with Joerg Demus). However, I can think of at least 8 other
recordings of the cycle that I would not want to be without. Those would
include (in no particular order):Lehmann/Ulanowsky, Hotter/Moore,
Schmitt-Walter/Leitner, Huesch/Muller, F-D/Brendel, Schreier/Richter,
Fassbaender/Reimann, Pears/Britten, and Anders/Raucheisen. Of recent
recordings, I very much like what Roman Trekel does with the cycle (on
Naxos), although I don't at all like the way his pianist Ulrich
Eisenloher, "interprets" the piano part of "Der Leiermann." What a dumb
idea!!
As for the issue of which order the songs should be sung in, I think it
makes infintely more sense to sing them in the order in which Schubert
composed them. True, it is not Wilhelm Mueller's original order, but
Schubert made it make sense for him, and since it's a song cycle, not a
poetry reading, I can't see the point of rearranging the order that
Schubert used in his composition. Rearranging something like
"Schwanengesang," which isn't a cycle at all, is quite another story.
P.S. I love talking about "Winterreise" recordings because no one can
offer Fritz Wunderlich as the best performer!
Celia A. Sgroi
State University of New York
College at Oswego
sg...@oswego.edu
Nicolas Hodges
<sg...@news.oswego.edu> writes
>I love talking about "Winterreise" recordings because no one can
>offer Fritz Wunderlich as the best performer!
<yawn>
--
Nic
Matthew B. Tepper
You ought to see a doctor about possible apnea.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
Paul Goldstein
So do I.
Paul Goldstein
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Celia A. Sgroi
> It's one of my favorites. Hagegard certainly chooses *not* to wear his
> heart on his sleeve, and consistently makes his points by musical means,
> without some of the emotive scenery-chewing of various and sundry other
> singers. This isn't to say that a dramatic treatment isn't appropriate
> - but there are certainly other ways to sing the cycle.
What, you mean you don't like the Jon Vickers approach, Bill?
Celia A. Sgroi
> In article <FvsGK...@oswego.Oswego.EDU>, Celia A. Sgroi
> <sg...@news.oswego.edu> writes
> >I love talking about "Winterreise" recordings because no one can
> >offer Fritz Wunderlich as the best performer!
>
> <yawn>
If you catch any flies while your mouth is open, please swallow hard.
Nicolas Hodges
<sg...@news.oswego.edu> writes
>n...@nicolashodges.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>> In article <FvsGK...@oswego.Oswego.EDU>, Celia A. Sgroi
>> <sg...@news.oswego.edu> writes
>> >I love talking about "Winterreise" recordings because no one can
>> >offer Fritz Wunderlich as the best performer!
>>
>> <yawn>
>
>If you catch any flies while your mouth is open, please swallow hard.
The mouth is not open much - I'm trying to stifle the yawn, really I am.
--
Nic
Aron Edidin
wk...@juno.com wrote:
> In article <8h2hdd$ia6$5...@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>,
> correct address in .sigfile wrote:
>
> > I have to admit that although I'm normally a fan of Hakan Hagegard,
> > I found his "Winterreise" (with Schuback, released in 1984 or 1985)
> > rather uninspired.
>
> It's one of my favorites. Hagegard certainly chooses *not* to wear his
> heart on his sleeve, and consistently makes his points by musical means,
> without some of the emotive scenery-chewing of various and sundry other
> singers. This isn't to say that a dramatic treatment isn't appropriate
> - but there are certainly other ways to sing the cycle.
This is one of just a few cases in which a performance I like a lot is
wrecked for me by the recorded sound, which I found intolerably echoey.
Responses to such things vary as much as taste in singers, and mine varies
from occasion to occasion, but I'd avoid Hagegard unless I heard of an
improved remastering.
Yours,
Aron
Richard Schultz
: wk...@juno.com wrote:
: > Hagegard certainly chooses *not* to wear his
: > heart on his sleeve, and consistently makes his points by musical means,
: > without some of the emotive scenery-chewing of various and sundry other
: > singers. This isn't to say that a dramatic treatment isn't appropriate
: > - but there are certainly other ways to sing the cycle.
: This is one of just a few cases in which a performance I like a lot is
: wrecked for me by the recorded sound, which I found intolerably echoey.
: Responses to such things vary as much as taste in singers, and mine varies
: from occasion to occasion, but I'd avoid Hagegard unless I heard of an
: improved remastering.
I may be getting a bit mixed up here, but I seem to recall that there were
a number of RCA recordings from that era (early digital) that sounded
funny to me. I normally like Hagegard, though. I once was at a recital
where he did Dichterliebe. The high "A" was kind of like that old
Memorex ad. Whoosh.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"What I do object to is uninformed malicious pandering to low level
uncouthness, even if it comes from the holiest of lands, Israel!"
-- Kenneth Lane, Wagnerian Romantischer Heldenspammer
Matthew B. Tepper
>
> n...@nicolashodges.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> > In article <FvsGK...@oswego.Oswego.EDU>, Celia A. Sgroi
> > <sg...@news.oswego.edu> writes
> > >I love talking about "Winterreise" recordings because no one can
> > >offer Fritz Wunderlich as the best performer!
> >
> > <yawn>
>
> If you catch any flies while your mouth is open, please swallow hard.
He does a lot of yawning, apparently in order to show the amount of
respect he has for other people's opinions when they vary from his own.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
wk...@juno.com
sg...@news.oswego.edu (Celia A. Sgroi) wrote:
> What, you mean you don't like the Jon Vickers approach, Bill?
Not only is he awful on both recordings, but he takes *forever*.
Bill
Nicolas Hodges
<o...@earthlink.net> writes
>"Celia A. Sgroi" wrote:
>>
>> n...@nicolashodges.demon.co.uk wrote:
>>
>> > In article <FvsGK...@oswego.Oswego.EDU>, Celia A. Sgroi
>> > <sg...@news.oswego.edu> writes
>> > >I love talking about "Winterreise" recordings because no one can
>> > >offer Fritz Wunderlich as the best performer!
>> >
>> > <yawn>
>>
>> If you catch any flies while your mouth is open, please swallow hard.
>
>He does a lot of yawning, apparently in order to show the amount of
>respect he has for other people's opinions when they vary from his own.
You misunderstand. I yawn when people are predictably mono-thematic.
Celia _always_ praises FiDi to the detriment of everyone else, even such
as Wunderlich, who although very different from FiDi is quite obviously
something special. Likewise, whenever mentioned you _always_ crap on
Gould who is quite obviously a genius whether you like him or not.
I happen to like FiDi a lot in some things, and I don't like all of
Gould by any means. So it's not that I totally disagree with either of
you, and I certainly don't disrespect your opinions, it's just that I'm
bored and irritated by hearing such negative views repeated over and
over again.
--
Nic
Dimitri Dover
>
> In article <393EA455...@earthlink.net>, Matthew B. Tepper
> <o...@earthlink.net> writes
> >"Celia A. Sgroi" wrote:
> >>
> >> n...@nicolashodges.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <FvsGK...@oswego.Oswego.EDU>, Celia A. Sgroi
> >> > <sg...@news.oswego.edu> writes
> >> > >I love talking about "Winterreise" recordings because no one can
> >> > >offer Fritz Wunderlich as the best performer!
> >> >
> >> > <yawn>
> >>
> >> If you catch any flies while your mouth is open, please swallow hard.
> >
> >He does a lot of yawning, apparently in order to show the amount of
> >respect he has for other people's opinions when they vary from his own.
>
> You misunderstand. I yawn when people are predictably mono-thematic.
> Celia _always_ praises FiDi to the detriment of everyone else, even such
> as Wunderlich, who although very different from FiDi is quite obviously
> something special. Likewise, whenever mentioned you _always_ crap on
> Gould
and Celibidache, and Cortot....
Dimitri
Celia A. Sgroi
> You misunderstand. I yawn when people are predictably mono-thematic.
> Celia _always_ praises FiDi to the detriment of everyone else, even such
> as Wunderlich, who although very different from FiDi is quite obviously
> something special. Likewise, whenever mentioned you _always_ crap on
> Gould who is quite obviously a genius whether you like him or not.
You're going to have to try harder than that. If you bothered to read my
original post, I listed NINE other "Winterreise" recordings that I liked,
only one of which involved Fischer-Dieskau, so that means I named EIGHT
recordings without F-D. Can you count enough to follow me that far? I am a
DFD fan and I don't pretend otherwise, but I do not always praise him to
the detriment of others, and I am well aware of his limitations. As for
Fritz Wunderlich, he had a lovely voice, but his Lieder recordings are
about as devoid of imagination as anything I have ever heard.
> I happen to like FiDi a lot in some things, and I don't like all of
> Gould by any means. So it's not that I totally disagree with either of
> you, and I certainly don't disrespect your opinions, it's just that I'm
> bored and irritated by hearing such negative views repeated over and
> over again.
And I am bored and irritated by people who extol the virtues of Wunderlich
as a Lieder singer when he wasn't a very good one. Where Lieder are
concerned, dying at 36 was a great career move for Wunderlich, since he
seems to have achieved immortality (among some people, at least) on the
basis of about three recordings.
samir ghiocel golescu
> As for Fritz Wunderlich, he had a lovely voice, but his Lieder
> recordings are about as devoid of imagination as anything I have ever
> heard.
That seems to me a great exaggeration. Wunderlich was "a lovely voice"?
Not even Nat King Cole was a lovely voice only. Obviously you possess a
tremendous knowledge of lieder and of lied recordings, so I kind of doubt
*I* can tell you anything new. However, you might agree that there is more
than one conception on how lieder are supposed to be sung. Simplifying a
lot, there are singers that go from word to sound and vice versa. I happen
to like more the first approach--and I trust you will not contest Fi-Di
had to do "something" with it. Nonetheless, Wunderlich, *at least in what
he did record*, had his, yes, most lovely voice used in a stylistically
adequate and musically compelling way. His flowing phrasing, that pastoral
mellifluous vivacity pigmented with childish sadness, stands better
for me, in Die Schone Mullerin, than F.-Dieskau's more intellectual,
searched for, approach. (OK, I didn't hear 78 different F.-D. versions, as
you certainly did). How would Wunderlich have been in Wolf or Pfitzner? I
don't know, but I am sure that dying was not for him a way of voluntarily
depriving us of knowing that.
regards,
SG
Steve Emerson
>
> That seems to me a great exaggeration. Wunderlich was "a lovely voice"?
> Not even Nat King Cole was a lovely voice only.
Not for a minute. Because he was a splendid pianist -- though this
before he was "King." As Whitney Balliett astutely remarked, "the gap
that formed when he left jazz has never closed."
Not that I mean to diverge from topic.
SE.
samir ghiocel golescu
Not at all. That explains Cole notable harmonic sensitivity--typical
particularly for some great *intelligent*^^ lied and/or opera singers, who
knew to play piano as well--think of Callas or Tauber, for instance.
regards,
SG
^^Some people believe with good reason that "intelligent singer" is a
(sadly) accepted oxymoron. I heard that in the 19th century you could sue
for defamation someone that called you a "tenor". (-: (-:
samir ghiocel golescu
On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Celia A. Sgroi wrote:
> gol...@students.uiuc.edu wrote:
>
> > Obviously you possess a tremendous knowledge of lieder and of lied
> > recordings, so I kind of doubt *I* can tell you anything new.
>
> Why the sarcasm? Lots of people have managed to tell me something new
> about Lieder, and several of them post to this newsgroup. Ask Bill Kasimer
> or Philip Peters about that.
Believe me, I was not sarcastic. I really believe you know a lot about
lieder--I've noticed it and I respect it.
[About your privileged relation with Mr. Peters, that is a story the
details of which I don't want to enter in... (-: (now I was joking)]
> > However,
> > you might agree that there is more than one conception on how lieder are
> > supposed to be sung. Simplifying a lot, there are singers that go from
> > word to sound and vice versa. I happen to like more the first
> > approach--and I trust you will not contest Fi-Di had to do
> > "something" with it.
>
> Of course there is more than one way to approach Lieder, but that still
> doesn't mean that Wunderlich was a great Lieder singer. His Lieder singing
> activity was quite limited, which is one good reason why there are so few
> recordings. Maybe he would have been great in this genre (although I
> rather doubt it), but he did not live long enough to demonstrate
> greatness. If a baseball pitcher won three games and then died, would he
> be a great pitcher?
Besides that that is more than a bit cynical to say, I believe in the
primacy of quality over quantity. There are singers that left a handful of
recordings, and they are still great. Then don't forget that sometimes a
great lieder singer *starts* at 36... F.-D. was more of an exception.
> > Nonetheless, Wunderlich, *at least in what
> > he did record*, had his, yes, most lovely voice used in a stylistically
> > adequate and musically compelling way. His flowing phrasing, that
> > pastoral mellifluous vivacity pigmented with childish sadness, stands
> > better for me, in Die Schone Mullerin, than F.-Dieskau's more
> > intellectual, searched for approach.
>
> I'm glad you like him. However, when I listen to his Lieder recordings, I
> hear mushy diction, limited rhythmic sense, strange tempi (listen to his
> "Ich grolle nicht" in "Dichterliebe"), and virtually no interpretation.
> A "Schoene Muellerin" that is very different from F-D that deserves to be
> called great, IMHO, is Aksel Schiotz's recording with Gerald Moore. The
> voice is not as beautiful as Wunderlich's, but he sure does do more with
> it.
I believe you are unfair on Wunderlich but this is itself a matter of
interpretation. I like Schiotz a lot but, paradoxically, I find his
voice also every bit as beautiful as Wunderlich's (if in a lighter,
different way).
> > (OK, I didn't hear 78 different F.-D. versions, as you certainly did).
>
> If I said I had heard 78 F-D "Schoene Muellerin" recordings I would be out
> of my mind. To the best of my knowledge, there are only four-- 3 with
> Gerald Moore and the recently released one with Joerg Demus. But it's
> possible that I have heard more different performances of the cycle than
> you have, both live and recorded. Does that bother you so much?
No. Don't be so suspicious. From the interpreters I like I collect every
bit of sound they uttered. I respect your passion.
Otherwise, it seems to me obvious that F.-D. left a far, far greater
lieder heritage. Just, please, don't be so harsh on Wunderlich because
he died young. This from one that also dislikes artistic judgments based
on tragic deaths. Peace.
regards,
SG
Clifford Ando
> In article <FvsGK...@oswego.Oswego.EDU>, Celia A. Sgroi
> <sg...@news.oswego.edu> writes
> >I love talking about "Winterreise" recordings because no one can
> >offer Fritz Wunderlich as the best performer!
>
> <yawn>
Hmmm. I was going to yawn at the praise of F-D, who receives more
knee-jerk adulation than almost anyone. That someone should actually
think hard about it and still like him, as Celia clearly has and does,
seems to me incomprehensible. --CA
samir ghiocel golescu
[I wrote:]
> ^^Some people believe with good reason that "intelligent singer" is a
> (sadly) accepted oxymoron. I heard that in the 19th century you could sue
> for defamation someone that called you a "tenor". (-: (-:
Mr. Schultz,
Please don't extract any rushed conclusions, will you? (-:
C. N. Chew
>
> You misunderstand. I yawn when people are predictably mono-thematic.
> Celia _always_ praises FiDi to the detriment of everyone else, even such
> as Wunderlich, who although very different from FiDi is quite obviously
> something special.
But you yawned in response to a post by Celia in which she names no
fewer than eight other singers whose Winterreise recordings she likes.
Perhaps it's octo-thematicism that bores you?
Naun.
Nicolas Hodges
<sg...@news.oswego.edu> writes
>> I happen to like FiDi a lot in some things, and I don't like all of
>> Gould by any means. So it's not that I totally disagree with either of
>> you, and I certainly don't disrespect your opinions, it's just that I'm
>> bored and irritated by hearing such negative views repeated over and
>> over again.
>
>And I am bored and irritated by people who extol the virtues of Wunderlich
>as a Lieder singer when he wasn't a very good one.
Wasn't he?
>Where Lieder are
>concerned, dying at 36 was a great career move for Wunderlich, since he
>seems to have achieved immortality (among some people, at least) on the
>basis of about three recordings.
I don't think he died as a career move.
As for your being a fan of FiDi, we all know that.
--
Nic
Matthew B. Tepper
>
> In article <393EA455...@earthlink.net>, Matthew B. Tepper
> <o...@earthlink.net> writes
> >"Celia A. Sgroi" wrote:
> >>
> >> n...@nicolashodges.demon.co.uk wrote:
> >>
> >> > <sg...@news.oswego.edu> writes
> >> > >I love talking about "Winterreise" recordings because no one can
> >> > >offer Fritz Wunderlich as the best performer!
> >> >
> >> > <yawn>
> >>
> >
> >He does a lot of yawning, apparently in order to show the amount of
> >respect he has for other people's opinions when they vary from his own.
>
> Celia _always_ praises FiDi to the detriment of everyone else, even such
> as Wunderlich, who although very different from FiDi is quite obviously
> Gould who is quite obviously a genius whether you like him or not.
>
> Gould by any means. So it's not that I totally disagree with either of
> you, and I certainly don't disrespect your opinions, it's just that I'm
> bored and irritated by hearing such negative views repeated over and
> over again.
Very well; but I can't help but wish that you had expressed your
opinions as lucidly and as politely as you just did. The "yawn"
business is, in my opinion, just plain rude.
richard loeb
concerned, dying at 36 was a great career move for Wunderlich, since he
seems to have achieved immortality (among some people, at least) on the
basis of about three recordings."
That wasn't a very intelligent thing to say, was it? This man's death was
real tragedy and to make a remark like that was, at best, tactless.
"Celia A. Sgroi" <sg...@news.oswego.edu> wrote in message
news:Fvt3q...@oswego.Oswego.EDU...
> n...@nicolashodges.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> > You misunderstand. I yawn when people are predictably mono-thematic.
> > Celia _always_ praises FiDi to the detriment of everyone else, even such
> > as Wunderlich, who although very different from FiDi is quite obviously
> > something special. Likewise, whenever mentioned you _always_ crap on
> > Gould who is quite obviously a genius whether you like him or not.
>
> You're going to have to try harder than that. If you bothered to read my
> original post, I listed NINE other "Winterreise" recordings that I liked,
> only one of which involved Fischer-Dieskau, so that means I named EIGHT
> recordings without F-D. Can you count enough to follow me that far? I am a
> DFD fan and I don't pretend otherwise, but I do not always praise him to
> the detriment of others, and I am well aware of his limitations. As for
> Fritz Wunderlich, he had a lovely voice, but his Lieder recordings are
> about as devoid of imagination as anything I have ever heard.
>
> > I happen to like FiDi a lot in some things, and I don't like all of
> > Gould by any means. So it's not that I totally disagree with either of
> > you, and I certainly don't disrespect your opinions, it's just that I'm
> > bored and irritated by hearing such negative views repeated over and
> > over again.
>
> And I am bored and irritated by people who extol the virtues of Wunderlich
> as a Lieder singer when he wasn't a very good one. Where Lieder are
> concerned, dying at 36 was a great career move for Wunderlich, since he
> seems to have achieved immortality (among some people, at least) on the
> basis of about three recordings.
>
Philip Peters
Simon Roberts wrote:
> wk...@juno.com wrote:
> : In article <8h2hdd$ia6$5...@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>,
> : correct address in .sigfile wrote:
>
> : > I have to admit that although I'm normally a fan of Hakan Hagegard,
> : > I found his "Winterreise" (with Schuback, released in 1984 or 1985)
> : > rather uninspired.
>
> : It's one of my favorites. Hagegard certainly chooses *not* to wear his
> : heart on his sleeve, and consistently makes his points by musical means,
> : without some of the emotive scenery-chewing of various and sundry other
> : singers. This isn't to say that a dramatic treatment isn't appropriate
> : - but there are certainly other ways to sing the cycle.
>
> Agree completely.
>
> Simon
So do I. For hard-core fans: five years earlier Hagegard made his first
recording of Winterreise, with Jan Eyron and sung *in Swedish*....
Philip
Celia A. Sgroi
> Obviously you possess a tremendous knowledge of lieder and of lied
> recordings, so I kind of doubt *I* can tell you anything new.
Why the sarcasm? Lots of people have managed to tell me something new
about Lieder, and several of them post to this newsgroup. Ask Bill Kasimer
or Philip Peters about that.
> However,
> you might agree that there is more than one conception on how lieder are
> supposed to be sung. Simplifying a lot, there are singers that go from
> word to sound and vice versa. I happen to like more the first
> approach--and I trust you will not contest Fi-Di had to do
> "something" with it.
Of course there is more than one way to approach Lieder, but that still
doesn't mean that Wunderlich was a great Lieder singer. His Lieder singing
activity was quite limited, which is one good reason why there are so few
recordings. Maybe he would have been great in this genre (although I
rather doubt it), but he did not live long enough to demonstrate
greatness. If a baseball pitcher won three games and then died, would he
be a great pitcher?
> Nonetheless, Wunderlich, *at least in what
> he did record*, had his, yes, most lovely voice used in a stylistically
> adequate and musically compelling way. His flowing phrasing, that
> pastoral mellifluous vivacity pigmented with childish sadness, stands
> better for me, in Die Schone Mullerin, than F.-Dieskau's more
> intellectual, searched for approach.
I'm glad you like him. However, when I listen to his Lieder recordings, I
hear mushy diction, limited rhythmic sense, strange tempi (listen to his
"Ich grolle nicht" in "Dichterliebe"), and virtually no interpretation.
A "Schoene Muellerin" that is very different from F-D that deserves to be
called great, IMHO, is Aksel Schiotz's recording with Gerald Moore. The
voice is not as beautiful as Wunderlich's, but he sure does do more with
it.
> (OK, I didn't hear 78 different F.-D. versions, as you certainly did).
If I said I had heard 78 F-D "Schoene Muellerin" recordings I would be out
of my mind. To the best of my knowledge, there are only four-- 3 with
Gerald Moore and the recently released one with Joerg Demus. But it's
possible that I have heard more different performances of the cycle than
you have, both live and recorded. Does that bother you so much?
> How would Wunderlich have been in Wolf or Pfitzner? I don't know, but I
> am sure that dying was not for him a way of voluntarily depriving us of
> knowing that.
Nobody knows how Wunderlich would have been in Wolf or Pfitzner. He didn't
sing them. That's the whole point. You can speculate or imagine all you
want, but there is no documentation at all to support it. Frankly, I find
it hard to imagine Wunderlich as he was in the recordings he did make
being effective in Wolf, which is far more text-oriented than Schubert or
Schumann. When someone dies as young as Fritz Wunderlich did, there is a
great temptation to imagine what he would have done if he had only lived
long enough. But because he didn't live long enough to have a complete
career, you also didn't hear any of his mistakes or bad judgments, or what
his voice was like in decline. You can weave as manay dreams as you like
about what might have been.
Actually, it might have been an equally good career move for F-D to die at
36. But if he had, the body of work he would have left behind at that
point would be a better basis upon which to judge him as a Lieder
singer. Whatever judgment one would make would at least not have to be
founded largely on speculation.
Matthew Silverstein
> doesn't mean that Wunderlich was a great Lieder singer. His Lieder singing
> activity was quite limited, which is one good reason why there are so few
> recordings. Maybe he would have been great in this genre (although I
> rather doubt it), but he did not live long enough to demonstrate
> greatness. If a baseball pitcher won three games and then died, would he
> be a great pitcher?
If he pitched three no-hitters, perhaps he would be.
Matty
Celia A. Sgroi
> Hmmm. I was going to yawn at the praise of F-D, who receives more
> knee-jerk adulation than almost anyone. That someone should actually
> think hard about it and still like him, as Celia clearly has and does,
> seems to me incomprehensible. --CA
Why?
NMSz
>wk...@juno.com wrote:
>
>> It's one of my favorites. Hagegard certainly chooses *not* to wear his
>> heart on his sleeve, and consistently makes his points by musical means,
>> without some of the emotive scenery-chewing of various and sundry other
>> singers. This isn't to say that a dramatic treatment isn't appropriate
>> - but there are certainly other ways to sing the cycle.
>
As posted before, Hagegard/Schuback on RCA RCD1-4861, (1983, engineered by
Anthony Salvatore) is a poor "echoey" and distant recording which doesn't
permit an adequate hold on the performance. When one can't really hear what's
going down, how can one pass judgement? For non F-D, I listen Prey/Engel on
EMI "Studio" 7 69106 2. At least you can hear what the man has got to say.
Whether you like it or not, is another question.
Celia A. Sgroi
Perhaps. He'd be a pitcher whom people would talk about, that's for sure,
but I'm not so certain you'd find him enshrined in Cooperstown. Over the
course of a career you have a better chance to assess what someone can
really do. Was that pitcher just "hot" for three games? Did he pitch
against teams that were in a slump? Was he lucky? Roger Clemons did not
pitch well last year, but I doubt if they will cross him off the Hall of
Fame list because last season he didn't meet the high standards he had
established for himself. They will make the decision about his greatness
based on his entire body of work.
So, did Fritz Wunderlich have the equivalent of three no-hitters? Even if
you think so, then what?
Nicolas Hodges
<sg...@news.oswego.edu> writes
I get it now. It's quantity you admire. Things would have been simpler
had you said that in the first place. :-)
--
Nic
wk...@juno.com
> Then don't forget that sometimes a
> great lieder singer *starts* at 36
Name one. If a singer doesn't have much imagination at the age of 30,
it's not likely that he'll have more by 40, 50, or 60. Singers
certainly may develop technically, and modify their interpretations to a
greater or lesser degree over the years (listen, for example, to
Schreier's two Winterreise recordings). But my listening suggests to me
that great Lieder singers find their "voice" early on, or don't find it
at all.
Nicolas Hodges
<sg...@news.oswego.edu> writes
>n...@nicolashodges.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
>> I get it now. It's quantity you admire. Things would have been simpler
>> had you said that in the first place. :-)
>
>sufficient period of time to demonstrate that it is not a fluke," I would
>probably agree. Where Wunderlich the Lieder singer is concerned, is
>concerned, the argument fails anyway for lack of quality.
Wunderlich aside, you believe something is only good if it can be
repeated? That seems a very industrial view of art! An exceptionally
good performance is that regardless of whether it is repeatable, and
Wunderlich's on the whole were, for me exceptionally good.
I very strongly disagree about Wunderlich's lack of quality. Perhaps if
his voice was ugly and his interpretations stultifyingly artificial you
might say they had quality?
FiDi may be an extremely intelligent and hard-working man, and in career
terms has been very lucky, but as an artist he is surely a phoney. Name
me one truly artistic recording by him and I will go out and hear it - I
promise.
--
Nic
Celia A. Sgroi
> I get it now. It's quantity you admire. Things would have been simpler
> had you said that in the first place. :-)
I see the smiley. However, if you said "quality sustained over a
sufficient period of time to demonstrate that it is not a fluke," I would
probably agree. Where Wunderlich the Lieder singer is concerned, is
concerned, the argument fails anyway for lack of quality.
Celia A. Sgroi
Celia A. Sgroi
> Wunderlich aside, you believe something is only good if it can be
> repeated? That seems a very industrial view of art! An exceptionally
> good performance is that regardless of whether it is repeatable, and
> Wunderlich's on the whole were, for me exceptionally good.
So how are you going to distinguish the "great" from the merely good? My
objection is to calling Fritz Wunderlich a great Lieder singer on the
basis of a few recordings. (I don't think there are very many great Lieder
singers, BTW, or great anything elses, for that matter.)
To take another example from sports, I liked very much the way Michael
Stich played tennis, and he won a Wimbledon championship and an ATP Tour
championship, so for given periods of time he was clearly exceptionally
good. But do his achievements over his entire career demonstrate
greatness? I don't think so. OTOH, I don't like Pete Sampras as a tennis
player, but 12 Grand Slam titles (so far) over the course of his career is
a pretty good indicator of greatness in his field, whether I like him or
not.
As it happens, we will have to disagree about whether Fritz Wunderlich's
recorded Lieder performances are exceptionally good. I accept, however,
that you like and admire him, and that's fine with me. I'd just appreciate
it if you didn't call him great when I'm around. (-:
samir ghiocel golescu
> > Then don't forget that sometimes a
> > great lieder singer *starts* at 36
>
> Name one.
Sir George Isidor Henschel? (-:
Celia A. Sgroi
> > samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Then don't forget that sometimes a
> > great lieder singer *starts* at 36
>
> Name one. If a singer doesn't have much imagination at the age of 30,
> it's not likely that he'll have more by 40, 50, or 60. Singers
> certainly may develop technically, and modify their interpretations to a
> greater or lesser degree over the years (listen, for example, to
> Schreier's two Winterreise recordings). But my listening suggests to me
> that great Lieder singers find their "voice" early on, or don't find it
> at all.
Agreed. I find myself wondering whether a young singer like Dietrich
Henschel, who has found a "voice" early, can make the kind of technical
improvements required to be a fine Lieder singer. I suppose one might say
the same of Ian Bostridge, although there I think there is a fundamental
problem of approach (almost entirely based on text with little feeling for
the music) that may not be possible to overcome.
And Fischer-Dieskau is not the only singer who found his "voice" early. I
heard Stephan Genz sing "Winterreise" at age 24, and although he still had
a long way to go, he was definitely already *there* as an interpreter. The
same is true of Matthias Goerne.
samir ghiocel golescu
> > > Then don't forget that sometimes a
> > > great lieder singer *starts* at 36
> >
> > Name one.
>
> Sir George Isidor Henschel? (-:
Karl Erb?...
wk...@juno.com
<Pine.GSO.4.10.100060...@ux12.cso.uiuc.edu>,
samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Karl Erb?...
I don't think so. As I recall, Erb was a late starter as a singer, and
relatively later as a concert singer (he had a primarily operatic career
up to the 20's, I think). I don't own any Lieder recordings during his
early years, but the operatic records suggest that he was an effective
interpreter shortly after he began.
Try again :-).
Simon Roberts
: As posted before, Hagegard/Schuback on RCA RCD1-4861, (1983, engineered by
: Anthony Salvatore) is a poor "echoey" and distant recording which doesn't
: permit an adequate hold on the performance. When one can't really hear what's
: going down, how can one pass judgement?
I have no trouble at all hearing "what's going down" on that recording; it
may not be ideal, but I should have thought it at least listenable.
Simon (who wishes he had a recording of Goerne's performance in
Philadelphia last year)
Clifford Ando
> ca...@usc.edu wrote:
>
> > Hmmm. I was going to yawn at the praise of F-D, who receives more
> > knee-jerk adulation than almost anyone. That someone should actually
> > think hard about it and still like him, as Celia clearly has and
> > does, seems to me incomprehensible. --CA
>
> Why?
Well, first I don't find his voice very attractive. The sort of breathy
hooting that became particularly prominent late in his life (and was
always prominent in his opera recordings) is there early, too, and I just
don't like it. To me, his early recordings all sound like Sprechstimme
and his later ones like yelling.
Then--and I don't know quite how to put this--his interpretations always
strike me as too self-conscious. And I don't mean that one can be
"artless" and not an interpreter: it is not that Fischer-Dieskau stands
between me and Schubert, say, but between me and Fischer-Dieskau. Rather
than performing, he instructs: being conscious of diction for diction's
sake, he gives a lesson in diction. And so on.
For some years when I was young Fischer-Dieskau's recordings were about
all that I had access to, some several dozen of his LP's. And even then I
found it impossible to derive pleasure from listening to them.
It doesn't surprise me that he might be a good teacher, and, again, I
don't know if this language is helpful. I don't question his
sincerity. But he strikes me as someone with an agenda: having reached
some self-concious conclusions about how to sing lieder, he cannot now
sing lieder without continual reference to a set of regulations whose
realization, indeed, whose autonomous presence in the recital hall or
recording studio, becomes a continual distraction. --CA
Clifford Ando ca...@usc.edu
Classics Department phone: (213) 740-3683
University of Southern California fax: (213) 740-7360
Los Angeles, CA 90089-0352
Simon Roberts
: FiDi may be an extremely intelligent and hard-working man, and in career
: terms has been very lucky, but as an artist he is surely a phoney. Name
: me one truly artistic recording by him and I will go out and hear it - I
: promise.
I don't know if we'll agree re what counts as "truly artistic" but one of
his recordings which I have yet to find annoying for the usual reasons (a
reductio ad absurdum of which can be found in a rehearsal sequence on the
Richter video) is his disc of Mahler songs on DG conducted by Böhm and
Kubelik. Have you heard that?
Simon
samir ghiocel golescu
On Thu, 8 Jun 2000 wk...@juno.com wrote:
> In article
> <Pine.GSO.4.10.100060...@ux12.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Karl Erb?...
>
> I don't think so. As I recall, Erb was a late starter as a singer, and
> relatively later as a concert singer (he had a primarily operatic career
> up to the 20's, I think). I don't own any Lieder recordings during his
> early years, but the operatic records suggest that he was an effective
> interpreter shortly after he began.
>
> Try again :-).
No need. Erb's initial career as an opera singer was already late, and he
devoted himself mainly to lieder & Passions due to a severe illness. His
first recordings were made already late in his life but the corpus of his
lied recordings were made when he was 60ish or more--not to forget his
last recordings, when he was close to his 80s. We have no way to infer
from that that at 20 Erb was a great lied singer.
I maintain that, as a matter of principle, opera is the young's
domain and lied the old's. I never said a young person is incapable of
singing lied, or an old one incapable of singing opera. Let's not forget,
though, about that singer that said: "when I had the voice to sing lieder,
I didn't know how to... now I know how but I don't have the voice
anymore". Personally, nicety of voice considerations are secondary to me
in the lied repertoire, unlike in opera repertoire.
regards,
SG
wk...@juno.com
samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> I maintain that, as a matter of principle, opera is the young's
> domain and lied the old's.
Well, as a matter of principle, I disagree :-).
> Let's not forget,
> though, about that singer that said: "when I had the voice to sing
> lieder, I didn't know how to... now I know how but I don't have the >
> voice anymore".
See, even he disagrees with you, whoever he is.
> Personally, nicety of voice considerations are secondary to
> me in the lied repertoire, unlike in opera repertoire.
Not to me. In both, vocal considerations are a sine qua non. I cannot
hear or appreciate interpretation in a singer who has incomplete control
of his/her instrument. That isn't to say that I require vocal
perfection (I'd have a very small collection), but I do demand that the
singer in question have addressed and solved, in some way, any vocal
deficiencies.
Celia A. Sgroi
> FiDi may be an extremely intelligent and hard-working man, and in career
> terms has been very lucky, but as an artist he is surely a phoney. Name
> me one truly artistic recording by him and I will go out and hear it - I
> promise.
How can I recommend a recording to you without a definition of
"artistic"? If you can listen to any of the live Salzburg Festival
recordings with Gerald Moore on Orfeo and hear nothing good and nothing
genuine, there's no hope for you.
If he sounds phoney to you, so be it. It's your loss. But it doesn't
really matter, so suit yourself.
Simon Roberts
: In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.100060...@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu>,
: samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
: > Personally, nicety of voice considerations are secondary to
: > me in the lied repertoire, unlike in opera repertoire.
: Not to me. In both, vocal considerations are a sine qua non. I cannot
: hear or appreciate interpretation in a singer who has incomplete control
: of his/her instrument. That isn't to say that I require vocal
: perfection (I'd have a very small collection), but I do demand that the
: singer in question have addressed and solved, in some way, any vocal
: deficiencies.
I think Samir's trying to tell us indirectly that he's a Shura Gehrman
fan.
Simon
Gregor Frowein
Sgroi) wrote:
>Where Lieder are
>concerned, dying at 36 was a great career move for Wunderlich, since he
>seems to have achieved immortality (among some people, at least) on the
>basis of about three recordings.
Your harsh words let me assume that you missed the chance for a career
move à la Wunderlich by far.
So be careful on steep stairs to not just die accidentally without any
chance for immortality.
(On the basis of about three score of your postings)
Gregor Frowein
richard loeb
> Gregor....@gmx.de wrote:
>
> > Your harsh words let me assume that you missed the chance for a career
> >
> > So be careful on steep stairs to not just die accidentally without any
> > chance for immortality.
> >
> > (On the basis of about three score of your postings)
>
> father, too. Get a life.
Celia A. Sgroi
C. N. Chew
>
> FiDi may be an extremely intelligent and hard-working man, and in career
> terms has been very lucky, but as an artist he is surely a phoney. Name
> me one truly artistic recording by him and I will go out and hear it - I
> promise.
Well, just to name a few OTTOMH, Brahms' "Feldeinsamkeit" with Demus,
Wolf's "Sterb' ich, so huellt in Blumen" with Moore and Schubert's
"Nacht und Traeume" with Brendel strike me as performances of consummate
artistry, as does his Christ in the Klemperer St Matthew Passion. I can
understand people finding aspects of his style contrived and reacting
against it, but to conclude that there is no substance behind the style
is surely to over-react.
FWIW, I think Wunderlich was a wonderfully musical singer, and his
Schoene Muellerin is among my favourites. After Fischer-Dieskau, of
course.
Naun.
Celia A. Sgroi
> Well, well what a mean spirited little person this is proving to be.
If you say so, sweetie.
samir ghiocel golescu
Because I am usually the "crazy lad" here, it may seem odd, but I reject
both extremes in the appreciation of Fi-Di. I do not believe at all he was
the greatest lieder singer ever--at least not more than Karajan was the
greatest conductor ever. F.-D. had a lust for repertorial ubiquitousness
and, except for Willem Mengelberg, I know of no recorded interpreter able
to give all of himself in each performance of each approached piece.
Hence, the relative shallowness of many of his recordings, the feeling
that they have been made just to amplify an already big pile. On the other
hand, I can not regard F.-D. other than as an amazing intellect, not at
all deprived of sensitivity, in his best recordings. I may not be very
fond of his color of voice but I am not repelled by it either. It was an
intelligently used, serviceable at least vehicle to convey a lifetime
experience with lieder and the best results cannot be simply erased, IMHO.
regards,
SG
_
"Performing decently a musical masterpiece requires enormous patience,
great skill, and years of painful practice. Still, performing decently a
musical masterpiece is nothing more than insufficient and little more
than obscene."
Celia A. Sgroi
> Because I am usually the "crazy lad" here, it may seem odd, but I reject
> both extremes in the appreciation of Fi-Di. I do not believe at all he
> was the greatest lieder singer ever--at least not more than Karajan was
> the greatest conductor ever. F.-D. had a lust for repertorial
> ubiquitousness and, except for Willem Mengelberg, I know of no recorded
> interpreter able to give all of himself in each performance of each
> approached piece.
> Hence, the relative shallowness of many of his recordings, the feeling
> that they have been made just to amplify an already big pile. On the
> other hand, I can not regard F.-D. other than as an amazing intellect,
> not at all deprived of sensitivity, in his best recordings. I may not be
> very fond of his color of voice but I am not repelled by it either. It
> was an intelligently used, serviceable at least vehicle to convey a
> lifetime experience with lieder and the best results cannot be simply
> erased, IMHO.
I can think of quite a few recordings by Fischer-Dieskau that are very
unpleasant to listen to because of extreme vocal limitations (Mostly from
late in his career if we're talking about Lieder. If we're talking about
opera, all bets are off.) and quite a few that are unsatisfactory because
of over-interpretation, ranting, hectoring, whatever you want to call it,
and a couple that are unsatisfactory because of linguistic limitations
(e.g. those in French).
Could you please list specific recorded examples of the "relatively
shallow performances"? And some indication of what makes them shallow
would also be welcome.
ESH Tooter
shallow performances"? And some indication of what makes them shallow
would also be welcome. >>
For years I was put off of Schubert's Schoene Mullerin. I thought the problem
was that the music was too early in Schubert's career and he was unable to
sustain quality for the length of the cycle. It was many years later that I
heard other performances and discovered that the problem was the harsh and
forced dramatics of FDs performance of one of Schubert's greatest masterpeices.
Tooter
ESH Tooter
: terms has been very lucky, but as an artist he is surely a phoney. Name
: me one truly artistic recording by him and I will go out and hear it - I
: promise. >>
Although I have to pick and choose carefully among FDs discography, one of the
very best recordings I have heard is his Schubert/Goethe recording with Demus.
Among many great performances on that recording, the "Meer Stille" is the very
best I know. The sense of calm is amazing. FDs hush is perfectly set off by
the little wavelets that Demus conjures out of his piano.
Tooter
samir ghiocel golescu
As I already acknowledged, my knowing D. F.-D's legacy is far from being
as exhaustive as yours. I really do not intend to name certain recordings
I dislike and to polemicize with you over them being or not shallow.
I "learned" some less-sung Schubert Lieder from F-D for instance but I
felt in his singing he learned them in a rush. Have no proof other than my
intuition. By shallowness I mean not conceiving each song for years, day
and night, before singing it.
You noticed, I hope, that I believe F-D's reputation is well-founded on
some great recordings (I generally liked his '50sh-'60sh voice more).
That's about all I have to say on the matter.
regards,
SG
samir ghiocel golescu
On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Celia A. Sgroi wrote:
> gol...@students.uiuc.edu wrote:
>
> > As I already acknowledged, my knowing D. F.-D's legacy is far from being
> > as exhaustive as yours. I really do not intend to name certain
> > recordings I dislike and to polemicize with you over them being or not
> > shallow.
> >
> > I "learned" some less-sung Schubert Lieder from F-D for instance but I
> > felt in his singing he learned them in a rush. Have no proof other than
> > my intuition. By shallowness I mean not conceiving each song for years,
> > day and night, before singing it.
>
> Oh come on, Samir, this is just plain silly. Of course some of the
> material F-D recorded was stuff that he had just learned for the
> recording. He couldn't have recorded that huge Schubert collection for DG,
> for instance, without doing that, and many of the songs in the other big
> collections and of little-known composers are the same.
Yes, I understand the practical reasons for that, but I don't agree with
it.
Otherwise, you are too charming a lady (I possess first-hand information
on the matter, from Mr. Peters (-:) to get into an argument with you
over the use of "troll" and "bogus". I was not provocative in my posting.
It seems kind of symptomatic you find any less-than-adulative ideas on
Fi-Di "trollwork". I'll let you in the care of Mr. Hodges and Ando.
bye,
SG
Celia A. Sgroi
> As I already acknowledged, my knowing D. F.-D's legacy is far from being
> as exhaustive as yours. I really do not intend to name certain
> recordings I dislike and to polemicize with you over them being or not
> shallow.
>
> I "learned" some less-sung Schubert Lieder from F-D for instance but I
> felt in his singing he learned them in a rush. Have no proof other than
> my intuition. By shallowness I mean not conceiving each song for years,
> day and night, before singing it.
Oh come on, Samir, this is just plain silly. Of course some of the
material F-D recorded was stuff that he had just learned for the
recording. He couldn't have recorded that huge Schubert collection for DG,
for instance, without doing that, and many of the songs in the other big
collections and of little-known composers are the same. But do you think,
for example, that all the singers in Hyperion's Schubert Edition had
lived with all the songs they recorded for years, day and night, before
recording them? Not a chance. Even the very experienced singers, such as
Janet Baker, Brigitte Fassbaender, and Peter Schreier, were asked to
record unfamiliar songs. Do you think that the young singers recording the
Hyperion Schumann Edition and the Loewe, Brahms and Pfitzner Editions for
cpo have lived with all the songs, day and night, for years? Not a chance!
OTOH, F-D gave something like 50 Lieder recitals a year for more than 40
years, so much of the material he recorded was well-known to him. And
frankly, in many instances it is the earlier recordings, when the material
was still relatively new, that are the freshest and most spontaneous.
And if you won't provide even one example, your whole argument is simply
bogus. And I'm sure you know that. You can take off your troll suit now.
> You noticed, I hope, that I believe F-D's reputation is well-founded on
> some great recordings (I generally liked his '50sh-'60sh voice more).
Right. The ones when he knew the material less well. You're hopeless, son.
> That's about all I have to say on the matter.
That's just as well.
Celia A. Sgroi
> Otherwise, you are too charming a lady (I possess first-hand information
> on the matter, from Mr. Peters (-:) to get into an argument with you
> over the use of "troll" and "bogus". I was not provocative in my
> posting.
No? When you post a claim and absolutely refuse to support it with even
one example, and when you then admit that you KNOW that other people also
record unfamiliar material but you aren't criticizing them? Come on!
> It seems kind of symptomatic you find any less-than-adulative ideas on
> Fi-Di "trollwork". I'll let you in the care of Mr. Hodges and Ando.
Apparently you, like Mr. Hodges, have a serious reading problem. Go back
and read my first post in this thread and see whether *I* didn't express
some "less-than-adulative ideas" about Fischer-Dieskau. Has it ever
occurred to you that perhaps I know Fischer-Dieskau's weaknesses and
limitations better than you do? I certainly have much more experience of
listening to him, both live and recorded. But of course that doesn't count
for anything, does it?
I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt when someone challenges your ideas,
but that's something you're just going to have to get used to.
samir ghiocel golescu
> > Otherwise, you are too charming a lady (I possess first-hand information
> > on the matter, from Mr. Peters (-:) to get into an argument with you
> > over the use of "troll" and "bogus". I was not provocative in my
> > posting.
>
> No? When you post a claim and absolutely refuse to support it with even
> one example,
Yes, I absolutely refuse because, as it seems already obvious, it would be
absolutely futile to bring one. Do you really believe that it is
impossible for me to say: "I was referring e.g. to lied X". So what?
You'd say: "I find that profound". Etc etc
> and when you then admit that you KNOW that other people also
> record unfamiliar material but you aren't criticizing them? Come on!
I criticize anyone who records material unfamiliar to me making it obvious
it is material unfamiliar to him also.
> Has it ever
> occurred to you that perhaps I know Fischer-Dieskau's weaknesses and
> limitations better than you do? I certainly have much more experience of
> listening to him, both live and recorded. But of course that doesn't count
> for anything, does it?
Yes, it does, I voluntarily said that and confirm.
> I'm sorry that your feelings are hurt when someone challenges your ideas,
> but that's something you're just going to have to get used to.
Oh, my feelings are OK, well and healthy, thanks. This phrase: "that's
something you're just going to have to get used to" reminds me of
something and of someone, but I am not able to recall now... It was a
sad story, anyway... (-:
respectfully yours,
SG
Matthew Silverstein
> record unfamiliar songs. Do you think that the young singers recording the
> Hyperion Schumann Edition and the Loewe, Brahms and Pfitzner Editions for
> cpo have lived with all the songs, day and night, for years? Not a chance!
Samir doesn't listen to young musicians . . . only dead ones.
:-)
Matty
ESH Tooter
perfection (I'd have a very small collection), but I do demand that the
singer in question have addressed and solved, in some way, any vocal
deficiencies.
>>
Sometimes vocal deficiencies can be turned into expressive tools. I would
suggest that both Lehmann and Hotter did not have the most beautiful voices
when their best lieder recordings were made, but they used their quirky sound
into some of the greatest lieder recordings of all time.
On another note, I also find Schiotz's voice to be one of the most beautiful of
all lieder singers.
Was Fassbaender known as a lieder singer when she was younger?
Tooter
ESH Tooter
fan. >>
That would make him unique.
ESH Tooter
Tooter
<< ESH Tooter (esht...@aol.com) wrote:
: "Richard Schultz" wrote:
: << EMI has a two CD set from the 60s which really shows him at his best
: (it's a combination of two Schubert LPs) and the 1963 Schone Mullerin
: is for me perfect. >>
: That is exactly the Schone Mullerin. . .
I have no idea who wrote the words attributed to me, but I certainly didn't.
Please be more careful with your attributions in the future. Thank you.
>>