Bruckner 8 - Favorite? Essentials?
Bruckner Junkie
Asahina recording on Exton has ignited the flame again. I really
doubt one would be able to spot this as an Asahina recording if you
were looking for the characteristics most often named in criticisms of
his conducting. Attacks are not noticably soft-edged (many will have
heard this in his third-to-last(!) Beethoven cycle on Canyon, done in
the early 90's). Tempi are fairly standard- the fourth movement clocks
in under 25'. In fact, I'm used to a slower coda, though I found the
momentum at that point refreshingly direct.
The sound is transparent and rich; additionally, I've encountered no
major orchestral flubs, just a moment or two of difficulty by
soloists. (True, this was patched from two concerts, but I've seen
things slip by- Sinopoli's studio recording was unbearable, for me,
for all the moments of sour brass).
Discussions I see here on Bruckner 8 are often directed towards
historical recordings. I can understand why these are important to us
(I'd wager a historical Brucker 8 comes out at least twice as often,
as a new one), but I'd love to hear, once more, favorite choices for
high-fidelity B8's. As far as I'm concerned, this would rule out my
favorite of all- Horenstein's LSO recording. By all means mention
your essential picks, but offer me one that you think excells in the
performance and sound category. (And I would very much like to hear
the reviews of the recent Asahina effort by those who seem to hear
almost all domestic releases- I know this may be a fantasy given the
cost that review would require).
Some notes to stir things up, and one question that is not answered in
Lani's discography:
- I find the Haitink Bruckner 8 with the VPO to be coarsely recorded.
Was it a live performance? The sound has an almost analogue (in the
worst way) thickness to it. Where is the sense of space to the hall
ambiance? I find this a big disappointment given the potential of the
orchestra and conductor.
- The Boulez Bruckner 8 on DVD video is too speedy for me in spots.
Is it identical to the cd (which I haven't heard)?
- Asahina's Canyon Osaka 8 has sound that obscures some of the brass
(see the opening of mvt. 4 for example). Despite positive reviews of
this, I have found that this performance lacks impact, despite the
presence of the recording. It is the only recording I have where I
feel the entire piece sounds too beautiful and lacking menace.
- Is Wand's Lubeck recording something special? Is this it? I think
so-
http://www.hmv.co.jp/Product/Detail.asp?sku=657777
- I have always been hung up on how the last three chords of the
symphony are delivered. Sometimes I find them a wholly unsatisfactory
conclusion to what has preceeded them, especially when the last chord
is clipped. Horenstein is a genius in what he does with this- the
last moment sounds like the fist of God landing on its target. I
believe Furtwangler's on Testament has the opposite effect- he's going
so fast that the brass have no time to really create the necessary
weight (this is going on a faint memory; the accuracy of the
description for this particular recording is less important than the
idea).
- Finally, van Beinum and Haitink's three (between the two of them)
RCO recordings offer a novel performance tradition that I don't see
represented in Lani's discography. At the opening of the 4th
movement, the timpani part has been totally rewritten to include, at
one point, a continuous roll of increasing amplitude at this section's
climax. I had read that this was a relic of scores which had been
modified by Mengelberg, but I noticed the other day that this also
appears in Furtwangler's wartime VPO recording. The Megelberg theory
would appear to be not quite the whole story. What other performances
show this idiosyncracy?
Prayng this does not land in the "Stillborn Threads" department
B. Junkie
David Wake
> - I have always been hung up on how the last three chords of the
> symphony are delivered. Sometimes I find them a wholly
> unsatisfactory conclusion to what has preceeded them, especially
> when the last chord is clipped. Horenstein is a genius in what he
> does with this- the last moment sounds like the fist of God landing
> on its target. I believe Furtwangler's on Testament has the
> opposite effect- he's going so fast that the brass have no time to
> really create the necessary weight (this is going on a faint memory;
> the accuracy of the description for this particular recording is
> less important than the idea).
I have always found Furtwangler/1944 ideal here.
David
horizon
it.
Matt C
scott
Wand/RCA (Lubeck)
Karajan (Vienna)/DG
Haitink (Concertgebouw)/Philips
Furtwangler(Berlin - March 15th)/Music and Arts
Bohm(Tonhalle De Zurich)/Palexa
Boulez (Vienna)/DG
Barbirolli (Halle)/BBC
Harnoncourt (Berlin)/Teldec
The two that I find myself returning to the most often are Wand and
(especially) Bohm. Both are live recordings with what you would generally
think of as 2nd tier orchestras. However, both have (to me) a special
spiritual quality that separate them from the others and are the ones I
return to most often. What I like specifically about the Bohm is that he
infuses the music with this quality without bringing the music to a
screeching halt like some other conductors (Celi!) do. I often think many
conductors go overboard with there attempts to be majestic and spiritual and
just end up sounding dull.
The Furtwangler is just about unlistenable due to the recording. All of the
others are at least well performed and I do not have any major complaints.
The weakest of that bunch is probably the Harnoncourt.
Scott
"Bruckner Junkie" <bruckne...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b846ae9.02031...@posting.google.com...
Tansal Arnas
"horizon" <mcarn...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> To me, the DG Karajan/VPO performance is outstanding. I wouldn't be without
> it.
Being one very curious to see what others recommend, I'll pitch in here to
agree 100% with Matt here, especially since this was my first ever Bruckner
recording (as much as we may hate Penguin on this ng, it was through them
that I had the courage to make this expensive purchase blind).
I'm also fond of Boulez's reading, and Furtwangler's wartime reading. (I
don't find the other Furtwangler's as compelling, including both rehearsal
and performance of 1949.) I can't find anything wrong with Giulini's, but
it does not capture me emotionally the way his 7 and especially his 9 do, or
the way the above mentioned 8s do.
I will soon see Bruckner 8 performed by Haitink/VPO at Carnegie Hall, my
first live attendance of this symphony.
Tansal
David Wake
> On 3/13/02 2:35 PM, in article qSNj8.65647$Ci6.14...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com,
> "horizon" <mcarn...@nyc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > To me, the DG Karajan/VPO performance is outstanding. I wouldn't be without
> > it.
>
> Being one very curious to see what others recommend, I'll pitch in here to
> agree 100% with Matt here, especially since this was my first ever Bruckner
> recording (as much as we may hate Penguin on this ng, it was through them
> that I had the courage to make this expensive purchase blind).
>
I'm afraid I have never seen what is special about the live Karajan/VPO.
David
Tansal Arnas
b846ae9.02031...@posting.google.com, "Bruckner Junkie"
<bruckne...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> - The Boulez Bruckner 8 on DVD video is too speedy for me in spots.
> Is it identical to the cd (which I haven't heard)?
The one on CD is from a live concert, so perhaps it is identical to the DVD.
I searched but was unable to find a listing for it in the US. Something
else came up, though, and I'd be very interested to know if anyone here has
it, and what they think of it. Giulini in the inaugural concert of the
World Philharmonic Orchestra in Stockholm, apparently made up of members of
orchestras from 60 nations (or just from 60 orchestras maybe?). Any good?
Tansal
Curtis Croulet
from Skrowaczewski's on Arte Nova. The text seems to be basically Haas, but
Haas's restorations have been only selectively honored, which is fine with
me. Is this still available in the U.S.? You could do worse than to buy
the complete set from the U.K. Aside from that, I'd head first for one of
the Jochums, with my current preference (by a small margin) for the DG
Berlin Phil recording. I'm with David Wake re Karajan's Eighth. I don't
have the VPO issue on DG, but I have a laserdisc performance that was
apparently done around the same time (perhaps the audio is identical), and I
have HvK's earlier BPO recording on DG. For me they are too slow (although
he comes close to the "correct" tempo for the opening of IV), too unvaried
in their steady, ultra-monumental approach.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
Paul Goldstein
>
>My favorites change over time, but recently I've had particular pleasure
>from Skrowaczewski's on Arte Nova.
Seconded. This is the most persuasive performance of the piece - which I do not
really like - that I've ever heard.
Paul Goldstein
Bill Baldwin
> Tansal Arnas writes:
>> horizon wrote:
>>
>> > To me, the DG Karajan/VPO performance is outstanding. I
>> > wouldn't be without it.
>>
>> Being one very curious to see what others recommend, I'll pitch in
>> here to agree 100% with Matt here, especially since this was my
>> first ever Bruckner recording (as much as we may hate Penguin on
>> this ng, it was through them that I had the courage to make this
>> expensive purchase blind).
>>
>
> I'm afraid I have never seen what is special about the live
> Karajan/VPO.
Me neither. It was my first Bruckner 8, and by all rights should've
been the one I imprinted on. Instead, I sold it back. I could tell
there was great music in there and it just didn't sound as though
Karajan was letting it out.
For a hi-fi, modern, good sound Bruckner 8, I'd go with Giulini.
--
Bill Baldwin
Audiophilia
> "Bruckner Junkie" <bruckne...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b846ae9.02031...@posting.google.com...
> > I thought I'd worn out my obsession with Bruckner's 8th, but the new
> > Asahina recording on Exton has ignited the flame again.
Mr. Junkie:
Run with your real name intact (God, how I hate these 'handles'!!!) to the
nearest HMV and buy Schuricht/VPO/EMI (coupled with a superb 9th). Essential
in every way.
With best wishes,
Anthony Kershaw
Curtis Croulet
Oh, I love the piece!
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
+33° 27' 59", -117° 05' 53"
Curtis Croulet
It's good, but is it still available? I bought mine at a used CD store.
Heck51
> high-fidelity B8's. "
I love the Solti renditions - the 60s VPO one, and esp the live
recording CSO one from Leningrad 1990.
Both are in fine Decca sound, and both orchestras are in fine form.
I like the CSO by a slight margin - I think Sir G connects it better
(this piece, like much Bruckner can be very disjointed and episodic)
in the later performance.
Also - no one matches the CSO for sonic "wallop", tho the VPO rates
high in this dept, also.
Marc Perman
"Curtis Croulet" <curt...@pe.net> wrote in message
news:N4Pj8.215$Ejt2.9...@news2.randori.com...
As of a couple weeks ago, both large Towers in NYC had the
Skrowaczewski Bruckner box for $45.99.
My favorite modern 8th is Eichhorn/Bruckner Linz Orchestra on
Camerata. He does the Nowak edition in about 77 minutes,
combining spirituality with keeping things moving.
Marc Perman
Bill Baldwin
>Bill Baldwin wrote:
>> For a hi-fi, modern, good sound Bruckner 8, I'd go with Giulini.
>
> It's good, but is it still available? I bought mine at a used CD
> store.
Egads! You're right. It's gone. Good thing I have it. I guess I'd
better buy a copy of Screwsitupski (sp?) conducting before that
disappears as well.
There appear to be 5 million different Furtwangler CD offerings of
this piece. But they all boil down to three different performances--
1944 with VPO and 3/14 and 3/15 with the BPO for the 1884 and 1890
versions respectively. Is Furtie in the public domain or something?
Can I come out with a Furtwangler CD the way I could come out with,
say, a Dickens novel? If not, why so many choices and what's the
diff?
--
Bill Baldwin
Joseph Vitale
listening to the most. It puts me in a whole different world. (But then any
great composition should do this, no?) The first Chicago Symphony concert I
ever attended as a young teenager was Bruckner's 8th conducted by Barenboim
back in the early 80's. I can't say I really "comprehended" it as an
inexperienced young listener. But after I heard those mass outpourings of
brass by Bud Herseth and company I knew I was hooked on o'l Anton B.
I have about 20 different versions of this great work and I really admirer
them each in their own way. So, not wanting to appear as having too liberal
tastes I won't bore everybody by listing them all here. I will, however, say
that out of all the liner notes supplementing Bruckner's 8th that I have also
acquired with my cd's, my favorite is Richard Osborne's analysis that
accompanies Karajans 1976 reading (DG). I really love his sense of relating
the music to other art forms and a keen sense of imagery.
JV
David Wake
> I have about 20 different versions of this great work and I really
> admirer them each in their own way. So, not wanting to appear as
> having too liberal tastes I won't bore everybody by listing them all
> here. I will, however, say that out of all the liner notes
> supplementing Bruckner's 8th that I have also acquired with my cd's,
> my favorite is Richard Osborne's analysis that accompanies Karajans
> 1976 reading (DG). I really love his sense of relating the music to
> other art forms and a keen sense of imagery.
Come on -- list your favorites!
David
Ward Hardman
: Here are the 8ths that I currently have in my collection:
: Wand/RCA (Lubeck)
: Karajan (Vienna)/DG
: Haitink (Concertgebouw)/Philips
: Furtwangler(Berlin - March 15th)/Music and Arts
: Bohm(Tonhalle De Zurich)/Palexa
: Boulez (Vienna)/DG
: Barbirolli (Halle)/BBC
: Harnoncourt (Berlin)/Teldec
[snip]
: What I like specifically about the Bohm is that he
: infuses the music with this quality without bringing the music to a
: screeching halt like some other conductors (Celi!) do. I often think many
: conductors go overboard with there attempts to be majestic and spiritual and
: just end up sounding dull.
The only version I share with you is the Karajan, having also his 1958 BPO
performance, plus Celibidache on Exclusive and EMI, Schuricht/EMI, Jochum/
EMI, Skrowazewski/Arte Nova, and Furtwangler/Testament. But for a really
guilty pleasure (not dull at all!), I sometimes draw the shades, remove all
glasses from the room, and play the Paita/Lodia at high volume, letting
the roaring tympani blast me and my easy chair back a few feet at every
climax. ;-)
--Ward Hardman
"The older I get, the more I admire and crave competence, just simple
competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
- H.L. Mencken
Sorach Chanthongkaew
Suitner on Berlin Records. It's a 2 disc-er coupled with 1. Though it hasn't
had its share of praise in the press, I did find the finale astounding.
Finely balanced, with a whip cracking brass.
Michael Lehrman
news:b846ae9.02031...@posting.google.com...
> Prayng this does not land in the "Stillborn Threads" department
>
performances, conducted by Kna, which included Bruckner 8. I did not care
much about that symphony then, having heard Jiulini and few others, but
loved Kna's performance, and it still remains my favorite. I wonder if
anybody else familiar with that recording.
ML
Curtis Croulet
have to make suggestions among them. I don't think there are "5 million" of
them, though. AFAIK there's one from 1944, two from 1949 from concerts on
consecutive days, and one from 1954, wherein he reverts to the 1892 edition.
Someone else will have to spell out the legal status of 50+ year old
recordings. It's my understanding that they are PD in some countries (e.g.
Italy), and that's been sufficient to get them into circulation.
Toscanini's late 1939 Beethoven cycle has been available on various Italian
and pirate labels for years, but the rights owners have sufficient legal
standing to keep the Naxos issues out of official distribution in the U.S.
Curtis Croulet
> Camerata. He does the Nowak edition in about 77 minutes,
> combining spirituality with keeping things moving.
Yes, IMHO this is excellent, precisely for the reasons you mention. But
this recording may be hard to find these days.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
Curtis Croulet
> recording CSO one from Leningrad 1990.
I know an oboist, at the top of his profession, who finds the wind playing
in Solti's Chicago Bruckner Eighth to be unlistenably out-of-tune. I like
the VPO recording.
Bob Harper
Michael Lehrman wrote:
> About 10 years ago Memories label issued 3 CD set of 1961-1962 VPO public
> performances, conducted by Kna, which included Bruckner 8. I did not care
> much about that symphony then, having heard Jiulini and few others, but
> loved Kna's performance, and it still remains my favorite. I wonder if
> anybody else familiar with that recording.
>
> ML
>
>
>
Yes, I have the set and though I'm not sure I'd list it as my favorite,
I do agree that it's a fine B.8. Unfortunately, my discs appear to be
bronzing. I'll have to try playing it soon to see whether it's still
good; if so, I guess I'll burn a copy.
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Ward Hardman wrote:
> The only version I share with you is the Karajan, having also his 1958 BPO
> performance, plus Celibidache on Exclusive and EMI, Schuricht/EMI, Jochum/
> EMI, Skrowazewski/Arte Nova, and Furtwangler/Testament. But for a really
> guilty pleasure (not dull at all!), I sometimes draw the shades, remove all
> glasses from the room, and play the Paita/Lodia at high volume, letting
> the roaring tympani blast me and my easy chair back a few feet at every
> climax. ;-)
>
> --Ward Hardman
>
> "The older I get, the more I admire and crave competence, just simple
> competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
> - H.L. Mencken
>
>
I've seen this, but not recently, and foolishly didn't buy it when I had
the chance. From what I've read, it does sound like a very guilty
pleasure indeed! Does anyone know whether it's still available anywhere?
Bob Harper
HenryFogel
>From: bruckne...@hotmail.com (Bruckner Junkie)
>Date: 3/13/2002 12:31 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <b846ae9.02031...@posting.google.com>
>
>I thought I'd worn out my obsession with Bruckner's 8th, but the new
>doubt one would be able to spot this as an Asahina recording if you
>were looking for the characteristics most often named in criticisms of
>his conducting. Attacks are not noticably soft-edged (many will have
>heard this in his third-to-last(!) Beethoven cycle on Canyon, done in
>the early 90's). Tempi are fairly standard- the fourth movement clocks
>in under 25'. In fact, I'm used to a slower coda, though I found the
>momentum at that point refreshingly direct.
>The sound is transparent and rich; additionally, I've encountered no
>major orchestral flubs, just a moment or two of difficulty by
>soloists. (True, this was patched from two concerts, but I've seen
>things slip by- Sinopoli's studio recording was unbearable, for me,
>for all the moments of sour brass).
>
>Discussions I see here on Bruckner 8 are often directed towards
>historical recordings. I can understand why these are important to us
>(I'd wager a historical Brucker 8 comes out at least twice as often,
>as a new one), but I'd love to hear, once more, favorite choices for
>high-fidelity B8's. As far as I'm concerned, this would rule out my
>favorite of all- Horenstein's LSO recording. By all means mention
>your essential picks, but offer me one that you think excells in the
>performance and sound category. (And I would very much like to hear
>the reviews of the recent Asahina effort by those who seem to hear
>almost all domestic releases- I know this may be a fantasy given the
>cost that review would require).
I too was stunned by this newest Bruckner 8th of Asahina. Given that he was 93
when he conducted the two concerts, I expected a noticeable flagging of energy,
bite, and tension. But the truth is just as you say -- it is up to, or perhaps
even beyond, the level of his best Bruckner recordings.
Henry Fogel
HenryFogel
the top of my list:
Furtwangler/VPO - 1944
Furtwangler/BPO - 1949 (March 14)
Jochum/BPO - 1964 (DG)
Goodall/BBC Sym - 1969 (just issued
by BBC)
Barbirolli/Halle - 1970 (BBC Legends)
Horenstein/LSO - 1970 (BBC)
Celibidache/Stuttgart Radio - 1977
One of Wand's recordings (I haven't heard the latest)
(I purposely always avoid mentioning either CSO recordings, or recordings by
CSO conductors with whom I have worked regularly).
Henry Fogel
Eric Nagamine
>
> My favorites change over time, but recently I've had particular pleasure
> from Skrowaczewski's on Arte Nova. The text seems to be basically Haas, but
> Haas's restorations have been only selectively honored, which is fine with
BMG is no longer the U.S. distributor for Arte Nova. There is a florida
company now handling U.S. distribution. Hopefully, they will be
importing more of the line.
--
-----------
Aloha and Mahalo,
Eric Nagamine
Eric Nagamine
playable due to discoloration) , though in many ways I like the DG
Karajan/Berlin recording.
Eric Nagamine
>
> On 3/13/02 1:31 PM, in article
> b846ae9.02031...@posting.google.com, "Bruckner Junkie"
> <bruckne...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > - The Boulez Bruckner 8 on DVD video is too speedy for me in spots.
> > Is it identical to the cd (which I haven't heard)?
>
> The one on CD is from a live concert, so perhaps it is identical to the DVD.
> I searched but was unable to find a listing for it in the US. Something
> else came up, though, and I'd be very interested to know if anyone here has
> it, and what they think of it.
AFAIK, the DVD is still not available in the U.S. I wasn't too keen on
the CD, though the "live" VPO 9th that was/is available via high
bandwidth streaming on the Andante website is is excellent. If that were
available on DVD I'd look into it.
Eric Nagamine
series? The 9th thoug is sublime in my book.
Eric Nagamine
>
> Discussions I see here on Bruckner 8 are often directed towards
> historical recordings. I can understand why these are important to us
> (I'd wager a historical Brucker 8 comes out at least twice as often,
> as a new one), but I'd love to hear, once more, favorite choices for
> high-fidelity B8's. As far as I'm concerned, this would rule out my
> favorite of all- Horenstein's LSO recording. By all means mention
> your essential picks, but offer me one that you think excells in the
> performance and sound category. (And I would very much like to hear
> the reviews of the recent Asahina effort by those who seem to hear
> almost all domestic releases- I know this may be a fantasy given the
> cost that review would require).
Haven't heard the new 8th, but I thought the Tokyo Mets 7th was
excellent. I think Horenstein's Bruckner including 5, 8, and 9
outstanding and in broadcast stereo, quite decent sonically. Better than
a lot of the modern multi-miked muckups.
> - Finally, van Beinum and Haitink's three (between the two of them)
> RCO recordings offer a novel performance tradition that I don't see
> represented in Lani's discography.
>
I've always enjoyed Haitink's 2nd RCOA 8th and 9th. Phillips did a
better job at recording the orchestra than the first go around.
Sorach Chanthongkaew
"Heck51" <dgall...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:e87e1a2e.02031...@posting.google.com...
> I love the Solti renditions - the 60s VPO one, and esp the live
> recording CSO one from Leningrad 1990.
Heck51,
I have to say, you are in a minority. Most of the reviews for Solti-Bruckner
8 have been negative. Talk about ruining the adagio (gramophone). The thing
is, on paper, IMO, Solti -CSO would make the ideal conductor for a
powerhouse Bruckner 8 finale. I really want to get this disc. Most of the
press, and some of the RMCR contributors, do not like this CD at all. Please
convince me.
Tansal Arnas
Nagamine" <en...@hawaii.rr.com> wrote:
I caught a performance of that live at Carnegie Hall, and also watched the
stream on Andante. Was my best Bruckner concert experience... potentially
until this Sunday. (I remember the programme had a password that would give
access to the page... Since then, I've mislocated it and haven't been able
to get to that page again. Bummer.) I surely would like to get a CD
version of it (or DVD of that and/or the 8th), though I didn't like the 9
better than Giulini's phenomenal (and of course OOP) recording.
Tansal
Hartmut Fritzsche
> I thought I'd worn out my obsession with Bruckner's 8th, but the new
> doubt one would be able to spot this as an Asahina recording if you
> were looking for the characteristics most often named in criticisms of
> his conducting. Attacks are not noticably soft-edged (many will have
> heard this in his third-to-last(!) Beethoven cycle on Canyon, done in
> the early 90's). Tempi are fairly standard- the fourth movement clocks
> in under 25'. In fact, I'm used to a slower coda, though I found the
> momentum at that point refreshingly direct.
> The sound is transparent and rich; additionally, I've encountered no
> major orchestral flubs, just a moment or two of difficulty by
> soloists. (True, this was patched from two concerts, but I've seen
> things slip by- Sinopoli's studio recording was unbearable, for me,
> for all the moments of sour brass).
>
> historical recordings. I can understand why these are important to us
> (I'd wager a historical Brucker 8 comes out at least twice as often,
> as a new one), but I'd love to hear, once more, favorite choices for
> high-fidelity B8's. As far as I'm concerned, this would rule out my
> favorite of all- Horenstein's LSO recording. By all means mention
> your essential picks, but offer me one that you think excells in the
> performance and sound category. (And I would very much like to hear
> the reviews of the recent Asahina effort by those who seem to hear
> almost all domestic releases- I know this may be a fantasy given the
> cost that review would require).
>
> Lani's discography:
>
> - I find the Haitink Bruckner 8 with the VPO to be coarsely recorded.
> Was it a live performance? The sound has an almost analogue (in the
> worst way) thickness to it. Where is the sense of space to the hall
> ambiance? I find this a big disappointment given the potential of the
> orchestra and conductor.
> - The Boulez Bruckner 8 on DVD video is too speedy for me in spots.
> Is it identical to the cd (which I haven't heard)?
> (see the opening of mvt. 4 for example). Despite positive reviews of
> this, I have found that this performance lacks impact, despite the
> presence of the recording. It is the only recording I have where I
> feel the entire piece sounds too beautiful and lacking menace.
> - Is Wand's Lubeck recording something special? Is this it? I think
> so-
> http://www.hmv.co.jp/Product/Detail.asp?sku=657777
> - I have always been hung up on how the last three chords of the
> symphony are delivered. Sometimes I find them a wholly unsatisfactory
> conclusion to what has preceeded them, especially when the last chord
> is clipped. Horenstein is a genius in what he does with this- the
> last moment sounds like the fist of God landing on its target. I
> believe Furtwangler's on Testament has the opposite effect- he's going
> so fast that the brass have no time to really create the necessary
> weight (this is going on a faint memory; the accuracy of the
> description for this particular recording is less important than the
> idea).
> - Finally, van Beinum and Haitink's three (between the two of them)
> RCO recordings offer a novel performance tradition that I don't see
> movement, the timpani part has been totally rewritten to include, at
> one point, a continuous roll of increasing amplitude at this section's
> climax. I had read that this was a relic of scores which had been
> modified by Mengelberg, but I noticed the other day that this also
> appears in Furtwangler's wartime VPO recording. The Megelberg theory
> would appear to be not quite the whole story. What other performances
> show this idiosyncracy?
> (Clipped here)
> Prayng this does not land in the "Stillborn Threads" department
>
I was introduced in Bruckner 8 in the 50th by Hermann Abendroth in
Weimar - now I am living with several records (van Beinum, Jochum
(both), Giulini ..) but my favorite is the Wand/BPO. Surprisingly,
this new live CD was not mentioned! By any reason?
Hartmut
Stephen North
> I'm afraid I have never seen what is special about the live Karajan/VPO.
>
Maybe the problem is you are using your eyes and not your ears <G>
I find nothing in the sound of this version that is special over his
earlier BPO accounts - it is slightly more transparent but teh BPO are
more solid and secure.
It is the culmulative effect of unerring pacing that grabs me. There
is more urgency about some the VPO interpretation which is spot-on.
It carries teh music forward and upward much more successfully than
the earlier versions. The highs are higher in the VPO.
That said there are days when I want lower tension so I go to
Karajan/BPO on DG.
There are also days when I just want to hear the symphony building
slowly, its a slow burn but it gets very hot - I go to Karajan/BPO EMI
I like Boulez, Skrowacezski (sp), Guilini (to a point), Karajan 1944,
Tintner (has a certain textual primacy). But none of these are
essential.
To hear how one man changed his view of this masterpiece - and to a
great extent took the listening public with him - hear all three HvK
commercial recordings.
S
Raymond Hall
news:qSNj8.65647$Ci6.14...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
| To me, the DG Karajan/VPO performance is outstanding. I wouldn't be
without
| it.
Nor would I. If hi-fidelity and beauty of sound is a concern, then the
Karajan/VPO 1988 recording takes some beating.
Performance wise, I still have Goodall's BBC prom Adagio in my memory, and
even though HvK (and many others too) fail to quite achieve my expectations
of the Goodall performance, perhaps only matched by Furtwängler's Oct 1944
account that I have on a Magic Talent CD, then the HvK/VPO Bruckner 8th
would be my choice.
Regards,
# RMCR Contributor Links/Main Page :
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
< there is no such thing as a bad orchestra, only a bad conductor >: HvK
Ray, Sydney
---
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Bill Baldwin
> Ward Hardman wrote:
>
>> The only version I share with you is the Karajan, having also his
>> 1958 BPO performance, plus Celibidache on Exclusive and EMI,
>> Schuricht/EMI, Jochum/ EMI, Skrowazewski/Arte Nova, and
>> Furtwangler/Testament. But for a really guilty pleasure (not dull
>> at all!), I sometimes draw the shades, remove all glasses from the
>> room, and play the Paita/Lodia at high volume, letting the roaring
>> tympani blast me and my easy chair back a few feet at every
>> climax. ;-)
I want my CMTV!
> I've seen this, but not recently, and foolishly didn't buy it when
> I had the chance. From what I've read, it does sound like a very
> guilty pleasure indeed! Does anyone know whether it's still
> available anywhere?
Nowhere online, new or used, in my US sources.
It appears you can get it from Germany for 17 euros (about $15) plus
almost as much in shipping if you're in the US. Total price comes to
32.47 euros ($28.63). How badly do you want it?
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004UFID/qid=1016106201/sr=8-
1/ref=sr_aps_prod_1_1/302-4509051-9900039
It's much cheaper, of course, if you live in the EEC as opposed to here
in "Restliche Welt."
--
Bill Baldwin
Bill Baldwin
> I've never really responded to Furtwängler's Bruckner,
Check it out. Your a-umlaut showed up fine in my newsreader, but it
goes out as a capital sigma. How does it show up on your end.
> so someone
> else will have to make suggestions among them. I don't think there
> are "5 million" of them, though.
So I exaggerated....
> AFAIK there's one from 1944, two
> from 1949 from concerts on consecutive days, and one from 1954,
> wherein he reverts to the 1892 edition.
That's AFAIK too. I meant that these four recordings are represented on
far more than four different CD offerings (though not 5 million. I'll
cop to that). It becomes confusing and one wonders if all 1944
Furtwangler Bruckner 8ths sound the same or if some have been
remastered or what.
--
Bill Baldwin
Michael Weston
"Curtis Croulet" <curt...@pe.net> wrote:
> My favorites change over time, but recently I've had particular pleasure
> from Skrowaczewski's on Arte Nova. The text seems to be basically Haas, but
> Haas's restorations have been only selectively honored, which is fine with
> me. Is this still available in the U.S.? You could do worse than to buy
> the complete set from the U.K. Aside from that, I'd head first for one of
> the Jochums, with my current preference (by a small margin) for the DG
> Berlin Phil recording. I'm with David Wake re Karajan's Eighth. I don't
> have the VPO issue on DG, but I have a laserdisc performance that was
> apparently done around the same time (perhaps the audio is identical), and I
> have HvK's earlier BPO recording on DG. For me they are too slow (although
> he comes close to the "correct" tempo for the opening of IV), too unvaried
> in their steady, ultra-monumental approach.
> --
> Curtis Croulet
> Temecula, California
I like (though at the moment am not thoroughly familiar with) Karajan's
first Unitel video/LD of Bruckner 8 with the VPO- I think it is from
1978 or so. I got rid of the famous DG release (which I believe gets
its audio from the Telemondial Sony video)- Karajan sounds lost in the
adagio, and the finale sounded like it was on autopilot. It's been a
long time, though.
M. Weston
Michael Weston
syrup. No, no, I'll admit I just couldn't get past the recorded sound-
there might be something good there.
M.Weston
In article <2571d5c9.02031...@posting.google.com>,
Rich Schiebel
wrote:
> But for a really
>guilty pleasure (not dull at all!), I sometimes draw the shades, remove all
>glasses from the room, and play the Paita/Lodia at high volume, letting
>the roaring tympani blast me and my easy chair back a few feet at every
>climax. ;-)
>
>--Ward Hardman
My guilty (Bruckner) pleasure is listening to Lionel Rogg's version on
the organ.
If someone recorded all the Bruckner symphonies on the organ I would
buy the set!
Rich Schiebel
Tansal Arnas
2571d5c9.02031...@posting.google.com, "Stephen North"
<sgfn...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> To hear how one man changed his view of this masterpiece - and to a
> great extent took the listening public with him - hear all three HvK
> commercial recordings.
Since I loved the VPO reading, I decided to go for the EMI, then the DG.
However, I don't think either of these earlier accounts with the BPO are up
to the level of the last VPO performance, which I prefer in every way. That
having been said, there are some things to appreciate in the DG recording
too. The EMI I've had a lot of trouble getting through, perhaps mostly due
to the recorded sound. But it comes with a good Brahms Tragic Overture.
(Furtwangler's 1944 is in my top three, just to clarify my "sound" comment.)
Tansal
Curtis Croulet
performances differ in the amount of audience noise, and one or both of
those has also been off-pitch in some issues. I have the Testament issue of
the 14 Mar 1949 performance, regarded by some as the better of the two from
that year, and it sounds decent to me. I don't know about problems with the
1954 performance. One of the WF mavens should step in here. Incidentally,
have you ever heard the 1944 finale recorded in stereo by Karajan? The
sound is extraordinary for the time.
Tansal Arnas
"Curtis Croulet" <curt...@pe.net> wrote:
> have you ever heard the 1944 finale recorded in stereo by Karajan? The
> sound is extraordinary for the time.
How does the performance compare to BPO (EMI & DG) and VPO (DG)?
Tansal
Curtis Croulet
> great extent took the listening public with him - hear all three HvK
> commercial recordings.
Unfortunately true, the result being performances by so many recent
conductors who have copied Karajan's glacial style. Before HvK, the
Bruckner Eighth (indeed, the other symphonies, too), was usually performed
with quicker tempos (except for the Adagio) and with considerably more
flexibility. Get Benjamin Korstvedt's book on the Bruckner Eighth for an
expanded discussion of this.
Curtis Croulet
Yes, this is excellent, and it's at the opposite end of the spectrum from
Karajan's recordings.
Curtis Croulet
Wow! I envy you.
> but my favorite is the Wand/BPO. Surprisingly,
> this new live CD was not mentioned! By any reason?
Most of us haven't heard it. It's not available in the U.S. yet, at least
not in California.
horizon
"Curtis Croulet" <curt...@pe.net> wrote in message
news:_i4k8.361$Ejt2.2...@news2.randori.com...
> > Schuricht/VPO/EMI (coupled with a superb 9th).
>
> Yes, this is excellent, and it's at the opposite end of the spectrum from
> Karajan's recordings.
I'm glad that someone else likes this performance...which I also own
(alongside both Jochum stereo performances, Wand, Horenstein, and HVK) also
enjoy quite a bit.
Matt C
Jorge Franganillo
>
Both performances are from the International Bruckner Festival (1996),
but they were recorded separately. The version recorded on CD is
different, although quite similar, to that recorded on DVD.
___
Jorge
Bruce Hodges
you, "Bruckner Junkie," for starting it. (I suspect that your moniker
might be appropriated by many of us...)
I have about six recordings of the piece. My first exposure to it was
with Haitink and the Concertgebouw (still a fave), but I also like
Karajan's Vienna recording. The Boulez version is appealing also -
clear and "unsentimental." I was frankly a bit surprised how
enjoyable it is. For older recordings, the 1944 Furtwangler is quite
spiritual, as is van Beinum's reading with the Concertgebouw.
I am lucky to have heard it live on the following occasions: Mehta and
the NY Philharmonic in the early 1980's; Karajan's last concert at
Carnegie Hall with the VPO; and the Orchestre de Paris, also at
Carnegie. (Sorry, this last was so unsatisfying that the details have
fled.)
The fourth time was in 1998 with Chailly and the Concertgebouw in
Amsterdam. I heard it "two-and-a-half" times: two complete
performances, but prior to those they offered the "Adagio" on its own
at a free "lunchtime concert." (Some "snack" eh?)
Also looking forward to Sunday's concert at Carnegie with great
anticipation.
--Bruce
Tansal Arnas
Classics Today) as to which of Wand's recordings is the highlight of the
several version per symphony. What are the opinions on this group?
Tansal
Curtis Croulet
I only heard part of it at Brucknerthon 2000. I thought the performance
sounded similar to his later ones.
Sorach Chanthongkaew
in Japan (circa 1970s) stereo broadcast bootleg, being the best one there
is.
Anyone care to share?
Heck51
I couldn't care less - I have no interest in critics and their
preferences for what I consider to be stodgy, logy, soporific Bruckner
performances - Solti drives it hard, no doubt - but the music really
benefits from it - Also i like the "hard" attacks of the Americans,
as opposed to the soft organ-like style of the middle-Europeans. If
Bruckner wanted his symphonies to sound like organ music, he would
have written them for organ.
"Most of the reviews for Solti-Bruckner 8 have been negative."
Utterly meaningless to me. i make up my own mind what is good or not.
"Talk about ruining the adagio (gramophone)."
Solti excels at the slow mvts - his Adagio of Sym#7 is the finest
version I've ever heard - really exquisite building to a shattering
climax. Matacic/CzPO is really good, too.
"The thing is, on paper, IMO, Solti -CSO would make the ideal
conductor for a
powerhouse Bruckner 8 finale.' "I really want to get this disc."
your opinion is well-founded - trust your instincts, go for it!!
CC -
"at the top of his profession,"
What is his profession - plumbing?? I heard the CSO play this symphony
live in Boston Symphony Hall - the flawless intonation at "FFF" and
'ppp" in the winds and brass was remarkable.
Ramon Khalona
> ... but my favorite is the Wand/BPO. Surprisingly,
> this new live CD was not mentioned! By any reason?
It may not have been released in the U.S. yet. This is
an outstanding performance, and a fine memorial to remember
Wand by, but I still prefer his Luebeck recording. Somehow
the reverberant ambiance sets the stage for a performance that is
full of mystery and passion. The level of transcendence that he
achieves in the Adagio is both sublime and almost unbearable.
I reserve this for special occasions and it was the recording I pulled
out the night I heard Wand had passed.
The original poster complained about the sound of Haitink/VPO.
No such problems here. I feel this performance is magnificent in
every way. You might quibble with the broadness of his two opening
movements, but they fit very well in his concept of the work's architecture.
His interpretation has not substantially changed since this recording
was made (1995), as evidence by the performance I witnessed last Monday night.
Furtwaengler's wartime recording with the VPO is another, life changing
experience. Again, it shouldn't be played too often.
I prefer Jochum's Dresden effort to his BPO recording, which I consider
the weak link in his DG cycle. If you can accept the wobbly nature of
the Dresden brass (and I love it), I feel that the Dresden performance has
more passion, is better integrated, and is even better played than the
Berlin one.
For "fast" performances, both Van Beinum and Kubelik (mono) take pride of
place. They both use the Haas edition, yet they're as quick as they come.
Very exciting. Rosbaud's is along the same lines, but avoid the Urania
issue where the Adagio has been mutilated by some 8 minutes.
Another performance that I find extraordinary is Knappertsbusch's with the
BPO (Music and Arts). He plays the first printed edition (1892) and makes
a very exciting showing. This is *the* recording I like to use to demonstrate
that Kna wasn't always the slow, plodding conductor that his detractors make
him out to be.
I am also very fond of Martin Sieghart's recording with the Bruckner Orchestra
of Linz (Japanese Denon). It is superbly played and the sound is
spectacular. I have never heard the Scherzo played with more vitality and
urgency.
Giulini's VPO recording is one where I find the "spiritual" element taken
to the hilt. It is superbly played by the VPO and the sound is excellent.
In many ways, a unique interpretation.
Then there is Celibidache on EMI. The very first time I played this at home,
my wife left the house in desperation with the words: "This is NEVER going
to end!" But if you adjust you pulse to Celi's pace, and take deep
breaths along the way, you will find some fascinating things, and you
will hear many details that get lost in louder, more frenzied renditions
of this incredible work. Not a first recommendation, but one that every
Brucknerian should hear once (and perhaps no more than once! :-)
It's hard to pick favorites when the music is this good.
Ramon Khalona
Ramon Khalona
It is much more similar to the EMI recording, which is not
surprising because it is closer in time. This is way before
Karajan became obsessed with sound.
RK
Vadim Batitsky
With the exception of Bruno Walter's live 1941 recording with NYPO
(which I have NOT heard), Furtwangler's Vienna performance from 1944
is one which, for me, dimmed every other recordings (including
Furtwangler's later ones from '49) into near obscurity.
But having heard Walter/VPO in an unforgetably beautiful Bruckner
9th (live, 1953), I'm curious to no end just what his recording of the
8th sounds like.
Vadim.
Michael Lehrman
"Bob Harper" <1bha...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3C902B33...@attbi.com...
>
>
> Michael Lehrman wrote:
>
>
> > About 10 years ago Memories label issued 3 CD set of 1961-1962 VPO
public
> > performances, conducted by Kna, which included Bruckner 8. I did not
care
> > much about that symphony then, having heard Jiulini and few others, but
> > loved Kna's performance, and it still remains my favorite. I wonder if
> > anybody else familiar with that recording.
> >
> > ML
> >
> >
> >
>
> Yes, I have the set and though I'm not sure I'd list it as my favorite,
> I do agree that it's a fine B.8. Unfortunately, my discs appear to be
> bronzing. I'll have to try playing it soon to see whether it's still
> good; if so, I guess I'll burn a copy.
>
> Bob Harper
>
Mine are bronzing too, but they play OK. Is it really that bad? I always
thought bronze was a sturdier material than aluminum.
ML
Marc Perman
"Ramon Khalona" <rkha...@adnc.com> wrote in message
news:a1cac283.02031...@posting.google.com...
> I am also very fond of Martin Sieghart's recording with the
Bruckner Orchestra
> of Linz (Japanese Denon). It is superbly played and the sound
is
> spectacular. I have never heard the Scherzo played with more
vitality and
> urgency.
Do you mean Eichhorn's, or has Sieghart also recorded the 8th? I
like Sieghart's Bruckner 1 and 3 (not to mention his Schmidt 4th
and Mozart Abduction).
Marc Perman
Sol L. Siegel
performance (Haas in under 74 minutes) that set a standard
for the "dramatic" type of interpretation. Hard to get, I admit:
my copy came with me from London when I was last there,
years ago.
I don't think anyone's mentioned the 1887 version, either.
Hardly a first choice but still a powerful experience when done
well, and the differences between that and either Haas or Nowak
are or course fascinating. Inbal is good, but Tintner is better,
readily available and cheap, with the 2nd disc filled out with an
equally fine D minor.
My other versions are Giulini (slow but effective), the analog
Haitink (Bruckner Lite, the only real disappointment in his '60s
cycle), Celibidache/EMI (beautiful but drives me crazy) and
Tennstedt (what a shame that he couldn't manage a commercial
version that even approached his best concert performances).
-Sol Siegel, Philadelphia, PA
--------------------
"To every complicated question, there is an answer that is simple, satisfying
and wrong." - Winston Churchill
--------------------
(Remove "junkfree" from the end of my e-mail address to respond.)
Sorach Chanthongkaew
> thought bronze was a sturdier material than aluminum.
>
> ML
>
Luckly non of my Bruckners are bronzing, but I've noticed more snap,
crackle, pop on discs that are bronzing. Is that the case for you? Also
notice that CDs without painted on topside labels are most at risk.
Any tips on ameliorating this problem?
Bill Anderson
I'm curious to no end just what his (Bruno Walter's )recording of the
8th sounds like.
> Vadim.
It has been several years since I have heard it. It's pretty good,
though the sound is dim and grainy. A friend mentioned that it may be
released on a CD soon, in improved sound. It deserves a good issue.
I agree with your comment about the Furtwangler/VPO 1944 broadcast.
Incredible performance.
- Bill
Curtis Croulet
Ramon means Sieghart. It's on Denon COCQ-83426.
HenryFogel
>From: "Curtis Croulet" curt...@pe.net
>Date: 3/14/2002 10:23 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <s84k8.358$Ejt2.2...@news2.randori.com>
The March 14, 1949 Testament issue is superb.
As for 1944, a number of the releases of that Furtwangler performance have been
slightly sharp in pitch, and afflicted with flutter. Included in that
description are Music & Arts, and all DGG (Japanese and US). The only issues
on pitch, and with almost no flutter, are Japanese EMI releases. The best of
those is TOCE 3786, a fine transfer (can be ordered from various Japanese
sources, including Abend).
The 1954 performance is an oddity; it is not of the Haas Edition, as are all
earlier Furtwangler recorded performances, but instead of the 1892 version
edited by Schalk. In addition, it is a somewhat sluggish performance
(Furtwanger, in his final year or so, was in inconsistent health and was
therefore inconsistent in his performances -- this is one of his poorest). I
think 1954 is only for completists.
Henry Fogel
Curtis Croulet
Symphony Versions Discography. I have the ASDisc issue, but I haven't seen
one in a retail store in about 10 years.
Brian Park
> > I love the Solti renditions - the 60s VPO one, and esp the live
> > recording CSO one from Leningrad 1990.
>
> I know an oboist, at the top of his profession, who finds the wind playing
> in Solti's Chicago Bruckner Eighth to be unlistenably out-of-tune. I like
> the VPO recording.
> --
Who cares about the winds in the Bruckner 8th? ;-) Actually, I think the
problem does exist in the second movement IIRC.
However, the brass playing in this recording almost makes you forget that
and anything else--some truly POWERFUL stuff.
Brian Park
Ramon Khalona
> "Ramon Khalona" <rkha...@adnc.com> wrote in message
> news:a1cac283.02031...@posting.google.com...
>
> > I am also very fond of Martin Sieghart's recording with the
> Bruckner Orchestra
> > of Linz (Japanese Denon). It is superbly played and the sound
> is
> > spectacular. I have never heard the Scherzo played with more
> vitality and
> > urgency.
>
> Do you mean Eichhorn's, or has Sieghart also recorded the 8th?
Eichhorn's is on Camerata. Sieghart's is on Denon
COCQ-83426, rec. 21-23.ii.2000 (15:33, 13:45, 26:01, 21:16).
He conducts the Nowak edition. The sound is spectacular.
RK
Henry Glenworthy
"Michael Lehrman" <mil...@attglobal.net> wrote:
> "Bob Harper" <1bha...@attbi.com> wrote:
> > Yes, I have the set and though I'm not sure I'd list it as my favorite,
> > I do agree that it's a fine B.8. Unfortunately, my discs appear to be
> > bronzing. I'll have to try playing it soon to see whether it's still
> > good; if so, I guess I'll burn a copy.
> Mine are bronzing too, but they play OK. Is it really that bad? I always
> thought bronze was a sturdier material than aluminum.
>>>>
You have a Philosopher's Stone?
===============================
Curtis Croulet
Well, they *do* have a lot of work in this piece. And there's that 3/4
section of the Adagio that they carry nearly alone.
Sol L. Siegel
>You have a Philosopher's Stone?
Totally OT: a local multiplex is running "Harry Potter and the
Philosopher's Stone" (Canadian version). ;>)
Bruckner Junkie
Henry, have you lost your enthusiasm for the van Beinum 8, or did that
one slip your mind on your short list?
Nobody has offered a word on the mad timpanists on the Haitink, van
Beinum and Furtwangler wartime readings. Why would the VPO be playing
it like the Concertgebouw?
Thanks to all...
Juan I. Cahis
Matacic's on Denon. Superb and hair raising!!!!!!!!
Very hard to find it, however.
bruckne...@hotmail.com (Bruckner Junkie) wrote:
>I thought I'd worn out my obsession with Bruckner's 8th, but the new
>Asahina recording on Exton has ignited the flame again. I really
>doubt one would be able to spot this as an Asahina recording if you
>were looking for the characteristics most often named in criticisms of
>his conducting. Attacks are not noticably soft-edged (many will have
>heard this in his third-to-last(!) Beethoven cycle on Canyon, done in
>the early 90's). Tempi are fairly standard- the fourth movement clocks
>in under 25'. In fact, I'm used to a slower coda, though I found the
>momentum at that point refreshingly direct.
>The sound is transparent and rich; additionally, I've encountered no
>major orchestral flubs, just a moment or two of difficulty by
>soloists. (True, this was patched from two concerts, but I've seen
>things slip by- Sinopoli's studio recording was unbearable, for me,
>for all the moments of sour brass).
>
>Discussions I see here on Bruckner 8 are often directed towards
>historical recordings. I can understand why these are important to us
>(I'd wager a historical Brucker 8 comes out at least twice as often,
>as a new one), but I'd love to hear, once more, favorite choices for
>high-fidelity B8's. As far as I'm concerned, this would rule out my
>favorite of all- Horenstein's LSO recording. By all means mention
>your essential picks, but offer me one that you think excells in the
>performance and sound category. (And I would very much like to hear
>the reviews of the recent Asahina effort by those who seem to hear
>almost all domestic releases- I know this may be a fantasy given the
>cost that review would require).
>
>Some notes to stir things up, and one question that is not answered in
>Lani's discography:
>
>- I find the Haitink Bruckner 8 with the VPO to be coarsely recorded.
>Was it a live performance? The sound has an almost analogue (in the
>worst way) thickness to it. Where is the sense of space to the hall
>ambiance? I find this a big disappointment given the potential of the
>orchestra and conductor.
>- The Boulez Bruckner 8 on DVD video is too speedy for me in spots.
>Is it identical to the cd (which I haven't heard)?
>- Asahina's Canyon Osaka 8 has sound that obscures some of the brass
>(see the opening of mvt. 4 for example). Despite positive reviews of
>this, I have found that this performance lacks impact, despite the
>presence of the recording. It is the only recording I have where I
>feel the entire piece sounds too beautiful and lacking menace.
>- Is Wand's Lubeck recording something special? Is this it? I think
>so-
>http://www.hmv.co.jp/Product/Detail.asp?sku=657777
>- I have always been hung up on how the last three chords of the
>symphony are delivered. Sometimes I find them a wholly unsatisfactory
>conclusion to what has preceeded them, especially when the last chord
>is clipped. Horenstein is a genius in what he does with this- the
>last moment sounds like the fist of God landing on its target. I
>believe Furtwangler's on Testament has the opposite effect- he's going
>so fast that the brass have no time to really create the necessary
>weight (this is going on a faint memory; the accuracy of the
>description for this particular recording is less important than the
>idea).
>- Finally, van Beinum and Haitink's three (between the two of them)
>RCO recordings offer a novel performance tradition that I don't see
>represented in Lani's discography. At the opening of the 4th
>movement, the timpani part has been totally rewritten to include, at
>one point, a continuous roll of increasing amplitude at this section's
>climax. I had read that this was a relic of scores which had been
>modified by Mengelberg, but I noticed the other day that this also
>appears in Furtwangler's wartime VPO recording. The Megelberg theory
>would appear to be not quite the whole story. What other performances
>show this idiosyncracy?
>
>Prayng this does not land in the "Stillborn Threads" department
>
>B. Junkie
Thanks
Juan I. Cahis
Santiago de Chile (South America)
Email: jic...@attglobal.net
Note: Please forgive me for my bad English, I am trying to improve it!
ulvi
> >Subject: Re: Bruckner 8 - Favorite? Essentials?
> >From: "Curtis Croulet" curt...@pe.net
> >Date: 3/14/2002 10:23 AM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: <s84k8.358$Ejt2.2...@news2.randori.com>
> >
> >I think the 1944 performance has been off-pitch in some issues. The 1949
> >performances differ in the amount of audience noise, and one or both of
> >those has also been off-pitch in some issues. I have the Testament issue of
> >the 14 Mar 1949 performance, regarded by some as the better of the two from
> >that year, and it sounds decent to me. I don't know about problems with the
> >1954 performance. One of the WF mavens should step in here. Incidentally,
> >have you ever heard the 1944 finale recorded in stereo by Karajan? The
> >sound is extraordinary for the time.
>
> The March 14, 1949 Testament issue is superb.
I never heard the Testament, but finally got the Lys issue of the same
performance from Berkshire, and the sound is nowhere as bad as I was
afraid it would be. For all I know, it could be the same transfer as
Testament; I don't notice any overfiltering or processing.
--
Ulvi
ulvi.yu...@jpl.nasa.gov
Raymond Hall
news:b846ae9.02031...@posting.google.com...
I don't think anyone has suggested anything about mad timpanists <g> But I
do distinctly remember on one of the Haitink 8ths with the RCO, how Haitink
brought them (at the beginning of the finale) into more prominence than
other recordings I have heard. Also the sound he gets from them is sharper
and more defined, (an example of Haitink's conception), than say the sound
HvK gets from his 1988 VPO recording.
Of some other conductors I haven't heard, some may bring the timpanists into
even more dramatic relief. In any case, I don't think Haitink overdoes it,
not by a long chalk, but he does make the finale opening quite thrilling, in
an otherwise not terribly inspired reading overall imo.
Regards,
# RMCR Contributor Links/Main Page :
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
< there is no such thing as a bad orchestra, only a bad conductor >: HvK
Ray, Sydney
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j james
> "Heck51" <dgall...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
> news:e87e1a2e.02031...@posting.google.com...
>
> > I love the Solti renditions - the 60s VPO one, and esp the live
> > recording CSO one from Leningrad 1990.
>
>
>
> I have to say, you are in a minority. Most of the reviews for Solti-Bruckner
> 8 have been negative. Talk about ruining the adagio (gramophone). The thing
> is, on paper, IMO, Solti -CSO would make the ideal conductor for a
> press, and some of the RMCR contributors, do not like this CD at all. Please
> convince me.
my first 8th was the 60s solti... and while ive refined my views over
the years... i still thrill to his powerhouse scherzo... some real
magic there!
cheers
james
Michael Lehrman
news:3C92815C...@jpl.nasa.gov...
>
> I never heard the Testament, but finally got the Lys issue of the same
> performance from Berkshire, and the sound is nowhere as bad as I was
> afraid it would be. For all I know, it could be the same transfer as
> Testament; I don't notice any overfiltering or processing.
>
performance from the Testament, - one day later and few minutes shorter.
ML
Michael Lehrman
news:a6ta2t$er5$1...@news.apaynet.com...
That would work for golding CDs only.
ML
HenryFogel
>I got my LYS from the Tower cut-out bin about a week ago. It is a different
>performance from the Testament, - one day later and few minutes shorter.
>
>ML
And with a relatively noisy audience - the prior day's performance was recorded
without audience.
Henry Fogel
HenryFogel
>Date: 3/15/2002 4:45 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <b846ae9.02031...@posting.google.com>
>
>Obviously, this is ripping along just fine.
>
>Henry, have you lost your enthusiasm for the van Beinum 8, or did that
>one slip your mind on your short list?
Yup - you're right, it slipped my mind. That too is a terrific performance. I
remember first encountering the Bruckner 8th with both van Beinum and Karajan
(EMI) at around the same time, and getting so much more out of the van Beinum.
Even then, just learning the piece, I found von Karajan just a bit homogenized
and overly smooth for my taste.
Henry Fogel
ulvi
I don't think so. My Lys is LYS244 and it gives March 14, 1949 as the recording
date. I don't hear any audience noise. I think there is also a separate Lys issue of
the March 15 performance.
--
Ulvi
ulvi.yu...@jpl.nasa.gov
Michael Lehrman
I have LYS245. Sorry.
ML
MarkZ1000
>Matacic's on Denon. Superb and hair raising!!!!!!!!
>
>Very hard to find it, however.
>
>bruckne...@hotmail.com
Favorite here is Haitink/concertgebouw recorded around 1981. It's the only
version I have where the adagio and last movement really work.
Mark Zimmerman * Chicago
To reply remove "nospam"
Jim Logan
I like almost evrything else he has done but am not familiar with his
Bruckner.
Raymond Hall
news:3c93c777...@news.melbpc.org.au...
| How does Kubelik stack up against the competition?
| I like almost evrything else he has done but am not familiar with his
| Bruckner.
Interesting. Did Kubelik do any Bruckner, let alone record him?
Bill Anderson
> Walter's was issued on ASDisc and Iron Needle, according to the Bruckner
> Symphony Versions Discography. I have the ASDisc issue, but I haven't seen
> one in a retail store in about 10 years.
Yes, but I believe both of those issues were taken from the BWS LP
release from the 1980's.
Bob Harper
Raymond Hall wrote:
> "Jim Logan" <jiml...@melbpc.org.au> wrote in message
> news:3c93c777...@news.melbpc.org.au...
> | How does Kubelik stack up against the competition?
> | I like almost evrything else he has done but am not familiar with his
> | Bruckner.
>
> Interesting. Did Kubelik do any Bruckner, let alone record him?
>
> Regards,
>
> # RMCR Contributor Links/Main Page :
> # http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
> < there is no such thing as a bad orchestra, only a bad conductor >: HvK
>
> Ray, Sydney
Yes, indeed. There's a fine Bruckner 8 and a better than fine Bruckner
9, both live, both on Orfeo.
Bob Harper
Curtis Croulet
but I can't seem to find it.
Curtis Croulet
> release from the 1980's.
It wouldn't surprise me.
Sorach Chanthongkaew
--
Sorach Chanthongkaew
"Bob Harper" <1bha...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3C93FB67...@attbi.com...
> > Interesting. Did Kubelik do any Bruckner, let alone record him?
> >
> > Regards,
Ramon Khalona
> How does Kubelik stack up against the competition?
> I like almost evrything else he has done but am not familiar with his
> Bruckner.
Kubelik was a devoted Brucknerian, as it turns out.
During his CSO tenure in the 50s he championed the 6th symphony
and performed the 4th and 8th symphonies (IIRC). The CSO archives
have two 8ths, one from 1966 and another from the 80s.
The 1966 performance is the more incisive one (his tempi had
broadened considerably by the 1980s). The CSO has also released
a stupendous 6th from 1982 and I had the privilege to be at one
of those performances. It was that performance that turned me
into an addict of this fantastic symphony.
With the BRSO he recorded symphonies 3 and 4 commercially (available
on CBS CDs) and there exist live airchecks of the same symphonies
(available on Bells of St. Florian). There exist two live recordings
of the 8th with the BRSO, the mono one from 1963 (Orfeo CD) and a
stereo one from the 1970s on a Japanese pirate label.
There is also a live 6th on Italian Originals and a *superb* 9th
on Orfeo that should not be missed. This 9th, perhaps better than
any other Bruckner recording by Kubelik, will give you a fair
measure of what a fine Brucknerian he was.
With the BPO he left a live recording
of the 9th from c. 1984 (Bells of St. Florian) and airchecks
of the 6th with Philadelphia and Cleveland also exist, as well as
airchecks of the 9th with Cleveland and the New York Phil.
I am also told that there exist archival recordings of the 3rd
and 8th with the Concertgebouw, an orchestra with which he conducted
a total of 15 Bruckner performances (the 3rd nine times, the 6th four times,
and the 8th twice).
The picture that emerges from listening to Kubelik's Bruckner
is that in the early days (prior to the 1970s) he favored
swift tempi (witness the mono 8th on Orfeo) and shunned grand
gestures. However, he could achieve moments of great eloquence,
as in the wonderful BRSO 9th on Orfeo, and could give performances
of great passion and conviction. His tempi did broaden as he got
older (as in the second CSO 8th and the second BRSO 8th), and
this is why I generally prefer the earlier recordings.
Ramon Khalona
Heck51
Matacic's on Denon. Superb and hair raising!!!!!!!!"
What orchestra is Matacic conducting in this performance??
Matacic is a great Bruckerian - his #7 is one of the very best, and
his #9 is superb, also - both with CzechPO.
Tiger
> performance and sound category
I enjoyed the Bruckner 2 and 9 by Hiroshi Wakasugi on the Arte Nova
label. Hearing how vehement his scherzo of the 9th is makes me wonder
how he would of pulled off an 8th. The former 2 CDs excell in the
performance and sound category.
Has it been released on the japanese labels before? If so any advice?
Juan I. Cahis
dgall...@mediaone.net (Heck51) wrote:
>"To my taste, the best "HI-FI" Bruckner Eighth on CD is Lovro von
>Matacic's on Denon. Superb and hair raising!!!!!!!!"
>
>What orchestra is Matacic conducting in this performance??
A Japanese one, I don't remember exactly its name now, and I am far
from my home at this time. But the sound quality of this recording is
much better than the ones with the CzechPO, that also I have.
>Matacic is a great Bruckerian - his #7 is one of the very best, and
>his #9 is superb, also - both with CzechPO.
Thanks
Lionel Tacchini
Rich Schiebel wrote:
>
> My guilty (Bruckner) pleasure is listening to Lionel Rogg's version on
> the organ.
>
> If someone recorded all the Bruckner symphonies on the organ I would
> buy the set!
There are recent recordings of the 3rd and 7th by Stender at the organ of
St.Marien in Lübeck and Thomas Schmögner has recorded the 4th.
--
Lionel Tacchini
Historical Bruckner Symphony Recordings:
http://home.arcor.de/lionel.tacchini/Historical_Bruckner.html
Lionel Tacchini
"Juan I. Cahis" wrote:
> Dear friends:
>
> dgall...@mediaone.net (Heck51) wrote:
>
> >"To my taste, the best "HI-FI" Bruckner Eighth on CD is Lovro von
> >Matacic's on Denon. Superb and hair raising!!!!!!!!"
> >
> >What orchestra is Matacic conducting in this performance??
>
> A Japanese one, I don't remember exactly its name now, and I am far
> from my home at this time. But the sound quality of this recording is
> much better than the ones with the CzechPO, that also I have.
It is the NHK Symphony Orchestra. A stunning performance indeed !
Fast, exciting and with all the flexibility this music calls for (and maybe even
a bit more ...).
Rich Schiebel
<lionel....@arcor.de> wrote:
>
>
>Rich Schiebel wrote:
>
>>
>> My guilty (Bruckner) pleasure is listening to Lionel Rogg's version on
>> the organ.
>>
>> If someone recorded all the Bruckner symphonies on the organ I would
>> buy the set!
>
>There are recent recordings of the 3rd and 7th by Stender at the organ of
>St.Marien in Lübeck and Thomas Schmögner has recorded the 4th.
>
>--
>Lionel Tacchini
>
Really! What label(s) are these on? My search at MDT turned up empty.
Have you heard them and do you have any opinions on them?
Rich
Simon Roberts
>I'm afraid I have never seen what is special about the live Karajan/VPO.
Nor I (it's far superior to the earlier Karajan recordings, though),
except I think the climax of i is pretty stunning in its sheer power.
Simon
Simon Roberts
wrote:
>A surprising gem of an 8th is one I found in the 50% off discount bin; Otmar
>Suitner on Berlin Records. It's a 2 disc-er coupled with 1. Though it hasn't
>had its share of praise in the press, I did find the finale astounding.
>Finely balanced, with a whip cracking brass.
>
It's barely even been mentioned in the press (English speaking, anyway); I
quite agree that its neglect is unwarranted - an excellent performance in
every way.
Simon