The Karajan Beethoven symphonies
wagnerfan
for EMI and DGG exist in an number of different remasterings and
editions.,. Which do our posters like the best and in which transfer??
The reason I am asking is that Eloquence has issued the 1963 cycle
(perhaps the most famous of the four????) very inexpensively Wagner
fan
Gerard
> The reason I am asking is that Eloquence has issued the 1963 cycle
> (perhaps the most famous of the four????) very inexpensively Wagner
> fan
Details?
pianomaven
Well, yes. Here we have Dickey trying to catch up on his learning.
Poor boy. Sorry. Old man.
The ONLY ways to obtain the 1961-3 Beethoven cycle are either as part
of the Beethoven edition - which has the SOTA remasterings - OR,
better still, the SACD transfers, which will get you even closer to
the sound of the mastertapes.
TD
Mark S
Actually, DG issued the 63 Karajan set in 1999 in its Collector's
Edition as well (DG Collectors Edition - 4630882, or ASIN:
B000056OBA). That set is still available and uses the same remaster
that was used in the complete Beethoven Edition. It runs about $40 at
Amazon, which is cheaper than buying Vol I of the CBE. This remaster
was an improvement over that done for the first CD issue of this set.
I see the Eloquence issue is going for $25. That's a deal, IF they use
the 1999 remaster. Amazon says that Eloquence released this set in
2007. Has it not been available in the USA?
As far as how many commercial Beethoven cycles Karajan recorded -
there are 4 sound-only recordings, the first on EMI with the
Philhamonia, and the 3 on DG with the BPO. There are two video cycles:
one on DG from the mid-70s, one on Sony from the digital age. The DG
video set is an entirely different recording from the sound-only
cycles. In addition, those videos have been issued with two different
versions of the Ninth. The VHS version contained a live version
recorded at the Philharmonie in 1977 with soloists Rene Kollo, Jose
van Dam, Agnes Baltsa and Anna Tomowa-Sintow. The DVD version of the
cycle contains a different Ninth that is quite odd: the first three
movements are an obvious live performance at the Philharmonie, while
the Finale was shot in an empty Philharmonie that has cardboard cutout
figures standing in for the audience (I kid you not). The soloists are
Janowitz, Ludwig, Jess Thomas and Walter Berry. This performance dates
from New Year's Day, 1968.
In the case of HvK's digital set, one assumes that the soundtracks of
the Sony/Telemondial videos utilize the same takes as does the DG CD
set. That may or may not be true. The soloists in the Ninth are
different on the video than those who appear on the CD (Grundheber
appears as bass on the DVD, whereas Van Dam does the honors on the
CD). Which is to say that it may well be that the digital DG CD and
Sony DVD sets are actually different in enough respects to qualify as
being unique recordings...but who knows?
Randy Lane
>
> - Show quoted text -
There are CDs of recordings made with the BPO in Tokyo in 1977,
released in Japan last year.
Is that the audio from one of the video sets you discuss?
Mark S
No, that would be another set!
addre...@invalid.invalid
I totally agree that the best way to have the 1960s DG set is the SACDs.
I've never owned the last set, likely never will based the bits I've heard.
The EMI set is available in a 2008 box that contains newer remasterings
than the boxed sets with HvKs complete EMI recordings. I own both but have
never compared them.
For the 1977 set, the best source is not a box. Get the 2003 2CD set with
5,6, & 9 (UPC 028947426028) and Galeria CDs for the rest. I also like the
SACD of the 1977 9th even better than the 2003 remastering.
Randy Lane
>
> - Show quoted text -
Links to teh Tokyo CDs :
http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/3900393
http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/3900391
http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/3900390
wagnerfan
Thanks Mark I'll see if I can find out which master the Eloquence
set uses - I would be surprised if it goes back to the oioginal CD
issue but you can never tell. Wagner fan
M forever
They are pretty much the same except for the finale of the 9th which
was filmed later, in 1986, and the reason the soloists are different
from the DG recording is that the ones which did that weren't all
available at the time of filming. Not all the filming was done at the
same time as the DG recordings, but with the exception of the finale
of the 9th, the same tracks were used as playback for the film
productions. Obviously, they couldn't have had the voice of van Dam
and the face of another singer because they were all very well known
singers. I am in that video, one of the extras in the audience (they
had figured out by that time that cardboard extras looked really
silly).
Mark S
>
> For the 1977 set, the best source is not a box. Get the 2003 2CD set with
> 5,6, & 9 (UPC 028947426028) and Galeria CDs for the rest. I also like the
> SACD of the 1977 9th even better than the 2003 remastering.
I agree with this comment. Too bad they didn't do the entire 1977 set
when they remastered 5, 6 & 9 in 2003.
A bigger disappointment is that DG has never remastered K's Bruckner
set.
Steve de Mena
> On Jul 16, 8:39 pm,<address...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> For the 1977 set, the best source is not a box. Get the 2003 2CD set with
>> SACD of the 1977 9th even better than the 2003 remastering.
>
> I agree with this comment. Too bad they didn't do the entire 1977 set
> when they remastered 5, 6& 9 in 2003.
Agree! I always wondered if they actually did remaster some more but
they never got released.
> A bigger disappointment is that DG has never remastered K's Bruckner
> set.
AGREE !!!!!!
Steve
wagnerfan
wrote:
Thnaks Mark - I'll have to decide on getting the collectors edition
of the 63 set (for about 25.00 thru third party sellers on Amazon) -r
more than twice that amount for the SACD set which I would have to
liisten through two channel (I don't have an SACD speaker set up)'
Wagner fan
wagnerfan
wrote:
BTW I couldn't believe when you said you were 56 - FWIW you post
"young" if that makes any sense (as opposed to some other posters here
who post like old men) Wagner fan
pianomaven
It was always DG's intention to retain the BE remastering for that
edition. I doubt very much it has been reused for the Eloquence set,
which is budget priced. DG did not want to put this transfer (the
equivalent of the crown jewels, if you will) into a budget series,
thus devaluing the BE completely. I have my doubts also about the
Collector's Edition containing that transfer, but I just don't know
since I don't own it and it appeared after my retirement from
Universal. That, in any event, is not considered budget priced, rather
mid priced, for the DG management.
You didn't mention the SACD version, Mark, which I do believe provides
a window into these famous recordings that has not been available
before. If anyone is interested, they should act before Universal
deletes all their SACD titles.
TD
Steve de Mena
> Thnaks Mark - I'll have to decide on getting the collectors edition
> of the 63 set (for about 25.00 thru third party sellers on Amazon) -r
> more than twice that amount for the SACD set which I would have to
> liisten through two channel (I don't have an SACD speaker set up)'
> Wagner fan
The 63 SACD set is stereo, no special speaker setup needed.
Steve
Steve de Mena
>> Thnaks Mark - I'll have to decide on getting the collectors edition
>> of the 63 set (for about 25.00 thru third party sellers on Amazon) -r
>> more than twice that amount for the SACD set which I would have to
>> liisten through two channel (I don't have an SACD speaker set up)'
>> Wagner fan
>
>
> BTW I couldn't believe when you said you were 56 - FWIW you post
> "young" if that makes any sense (as opposed to some other posters here
> who post like old men) Wagner fan
How old are you? :)
Steve (50)
Randy Lane
They could at least do so (remaster with 24 bit/96k tech and more) the
1966 Bruckner 9th, one of HvK's best commercial recordings. I was a
little peeved a few years ago when they remastered the digital Shosty
10th rather than the 1967 recording, a classic that ranks with the
afore mentioned Bruckner as one of the desert island HK recordings).
But then again, it surprised me they brought out either HvK 10th in
The Originals series at all, since they already had the Ancerl 10th in
the series (one the best chosen and engineered of The Originals BTW,
and sadly OOP).
So why are so many of you interested in HvK remasterings? Didn't
almost everyone in this discussion buy the Japanese Complete DGG
recordings 240 CD set in 2008? I thought I was the only sorry chap who
didn't hesitate to scarf that up back then. And aren't those
remasterings all superior to any done by their European counterparts?
Could some of you that own that set tell us less fortunate fans what
it has as far as masters used for the Beethoven recordings go?
Randy Lane
>
> - Show quoted text -
Does anyone know which Beethoven remasterings were used for this set:
ImportCds is taking pre-orders for this set at $282 right now :
http://www.importcds.com/Music/1957112/Karajan-Karajan-60-CD
pianomaven
If past practices are anything to go on, DG does not send mastertapes
to Japan. So, if they were to use any remasterings, either they would
have to order them - at their cost - from Hannover - or, use ones
already in existence.
Thus, that 240 CD set - ARGH!!! - could not really have included any
but a few total remasterings. The costs would simply have been out of
the question, prohibitively expensive with no possibility of recouping
those costs. Furthermore, Japan has a tendency to fiddle with the
sound of recordings sent from Europe. Tweak them for their own taste.
They ruined the sonics of the first CD transfer of the Arrau set, for
example, which was then taken up for the sake of ease by Philips in
Amsterdam. Later I insisted upon a complete remastering directly from
the original mastertapes, which is the way one can purchase this set
today. The earlier version - and the Japanese set - have been totally
eliminated from circulation as a result, at least in the West.
Bottom line: that 240 CD set would be a mixed bag of new and old
remasterings with the possibility of further tweaking in Tokyo.
TD
Gerard
Have you details about what you told in the first post ("Eloquence has issued
the 1963 cycle ... very inexpensively")?
>
>
> BTW I couldn't believe when you said you were 56 - FWIW you post
> "young" if that makes any sense (as opposed to some other posters here
> who post like old men)
Right. He posts like 6.
Randy Lane
>
> - Show quoted text -
While on the subject of Karajan and Beethoven, are either of his DG
recordings of the Missa Solemnis worthy of purchase?
Digital : http://tinyurl.com/3chk2jx
Analogue : http://tinyurl.com/3oc98vz
These are the only HvK DG recordings of the work, correct?
I had a strong negative reaction to his EMI recrding of the work and
have never even sampled the DGG recordings, having othe recordings
that are satisfying enough.
Andre Dersin
news:b289906b-fdb2-486f...@u6g2000prc.googlegroups.com:
> On Jul 16, 8:39 pm, <address...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> For the 1977 set, the best source is not a box. Get the 2003 2CD set
>> with 5,6, & 9 (UPC 028947426028) and Galeria CDs for the rest. I also
>> like the SACD of the 1977 9th even better than the 2003 remastering.
>
> I agree with this comment. Too bad they didn't do the entire 1977 set
> when they remastered 5, 6 & 9 in 2003.
FWIW, in regards to the 1963 set, I most enjoy listening to that via a
complete DG open reel edition that I have. It may not have quite the detail
of the remastered LvB edition (I have that too), but the soundstage is
enormous with natural warmth and immediacy that's consistantly appealing. -
Same goes with HvK's Wagner Ring. Those original DG/Ampex open reel
releases were excellent quality and still sound wonderful.
I've never heard the Barcaly open reel release of HvK's 1977 Ninth (could
never afford it on eBay) but I suspect that sounds very good too.
weary flake
<617d9b7b-40a4-49cf...@t38g2000prj.googlegroups.com>,
Randy Lane <randy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Links to teh Tokyo CDs :
>
> http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/product/detail/3900393
This shows a 9th on 1977.11.18 on on the label Tokyo Fm.
There's a live cycle on Memories (ME1078/82) that includes
a 9th for Aug 1976, that has Tomowa-Sintow, Baltsa, Schreier,
van Dam and Singerverein. I recall this has a favorite
performance of the finale, tho I can't swear to it. There
are no notes, not even a track list, to the Memories issue.
Mark S
They are the same remastering....and you are correct about the crown
jewel aspect.
The collector's edition was released when I still worked at MHS, and
that was after they had released the CBE. I attempted to get it
cleared for use as a club title, with rights to use it as a new member
offer as well. To my surprise, DG would not clear the Collector's
Edition version for me, but they did clear the CBE version, AND
granted MHS rights to use that set as a new member offer! Which meant
that we could offer the CBE set for $1 a disc and pay no royalties.
My original thought on going for the Collector's Edition was that it
1) used the same remastering as the CBE (It was clearly stated on the
packaging that the set had been subjected to DG's "Original Image Bit
processing" or whatever, and 2) that DG would be more likely to clear
the collector's edition as it had a cheaper "club" look to it to begin
with (and as we were contract bound to reproduce the MHS packaging to
match DG's issue, it seemed like a natural). But what did I know? -
they went ahead and cleared their fancy-schmantzy version.
> You didn't mention the SACD version, Mark, which I do believe provides
> a window into these famous recordings that has not been available
> before. If anyone is interested, they should act before Universal
> deletes all their SACD titles.
That's because I don't own SACD playback equipment. I wonder if I'd
hear much difference at my age. I did one of those online frequency
tests with my kids a few years ago, and I was shocked at what they
could hear and what I couldn't hear on the high end.
Mark S
>
> BTW I couldn't believe when you said you were 56 - FWIW you post
> "young" if that makes any sense (as opposed to some other posters here
> who post like old men) Wagner fan
Immaturity take many forms... :)
pianomaven
Yes, I imagine that we would all find it a sobering experience. Still,
I do hear a difference even at my advanced stage of senility.
TD
pianomaven
Not an question you will see answered, Steve. Dickey - who is an old
fool - rejoices in his "youth"!!! LOL. Yeah, sure. Tell it to the
Marines.
TD
M forever
No, you don't. You have proven that beyond any doubt with your famous
"comparisons" of two actually identical recordings. You don't hear
shit, physiologically as well as musically. A well trained ear usually
can minimize the effects of age induced hearing loss as the
experienced listener can compensate for that, but people like you with
untrained, useless tin ears just go progressively deaf.
pianomaven
What I neglected to add, Mark, is that the CD layer of the SACD/hybrid
Karajan set contains the latest high quality transfer of the masters.
So, if you ever do buy one of those play anything CD players, you will
have the SACD layer to enjoy. In the meantime, you can play the CD
layer perfectly well on your current equipment.
SACD transfers of old analogue recordings are few and far between. I
suggested to Philips that we proceed to move all the reissues to SACD,
but that was rejected out of hand. Too expensive. Nobody would pay for
better fidelity. Etc. the old story of limited vision at the top. Not
that they were totally wrong, of course. It was more expensive. But I
always felt that there was an audience for such transfers of the
really classic recordings. No, not I Musici playing Albinoni.
TD
Steve de Mena
> So why are so many of you interested in HvK remasterings? Didn't
> almost everyone in this discussion buy the Japanese Complete DGG
> recordings 240 CD set in 2008? I thought I was the only sorry chap who
> didn't hesitate to scarf that up back then. And aren't those
> remasterings all superior to any done by their European counterparts?
> Could some of you that own that set tell us less fortunate fans what
> it has as far as masters used for the Beethoven recordings go?
I don't believe the Japanese complete DG recordings contained ANY
remasterings.
Steve
MELMOTH
16/07/2011, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales tout
de même, et dans le message
<ev04275kbr38q8i3l...@4ax.com>, les doux mélismes
suivants :
> The four complete cycles Karajan recoerded of the Beethoven
> symphonies for EMI and DGG exist in an number of different
> remasterings and editions
Four KKK too many !...
1 - *Monteux*
2 - *Scherchen*
3 - *Szell*
--
Car avec beaucoup de science, il y a beaucoup de chagrin ; et celui qui
accroît sa science accroît sa douleur.
[Ecclésiaste, 1-18]
MELMOTH - souffrant
M forever
> Ce cher mammifère du nom de wagnerfan nous susurrait, le samedi
> 16/07/2011, dans nos oreilles grandes ouvertes mais un peu sales tout
> de même, et dans le message
> suivants :
>
> > The four complete cycles Karajan recoerded of the Beethoven
> > symphonies for EMI and DGG exist in an number of different
> > remasterings and editions
>
> Four KKK too many !...
What an idiotic and superfluous empty comment.