Beethoven's 5th Symphony
Peter H.M. Brooks
understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
I have the score, the music in MIDI and a couple of recordings that I'm
very fond of. I also have some books on composition and I've read some
biography of Beethoven.
What I'd like to do is get to understand the work itself in a lot more
depth. I understand the form of the symphony itself and a little of the
history of the form and some of the influences working on Beethoven at
the time.
I'm still just at the very start, I know. Are there any good books or
URLs that you can recommend?
This may seem a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway. What is the best
way to come to a musical understanding of a work of this magnitude, both
musically and historically - given that it is probably my favourite work
of classical music already?
I'll accept the answer of 'don't bother - if you have to ask you can't
know' as read. I'm looking for suggestions, even simplistic ones, that
can help me gain an understanding.
Incidentally, I'm interested in any different, odd, or unusual
arrangements or orchestrations (even dreadfully bad ones) as well as
more straight forward approaches.
You can also tell me that this is a silly thing to try to do - maybe,
aesthetically, the music is, itself, the whole of it. But, if you do
think this, I'd like to know why.
--
Now the chapter I was obliged to tear out, was the description of this
cavalcade, in which Corporal Trim and Obadiah, upon two coach-horses
a-breast, led the way as slow as a patrole--whilst my uncle Toby, in his
laced regimentals and tye-wig, kept his rank with my father, in deep
roads and dissertations alternately upon the advantage of learning and
arms, as each could get the start.- Tristam Shandy Chapter 2.LX Laurence
Sterne
* TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
Androcles
"Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
news:cu2r13$bia$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> I'm working on a little personal project. I'd like to get a better
> understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
>
> I have the score, the music in MIDI and a couple of recordings that
> I'm very fond of. I also have some books on composition and I've read
> some biography of Beethoven.
>
> What I'd like to do is get to understand the work itself in a lot more
> depth. I understand the form of the symphony itself and a little of
> the history of the form and some of the influences working on
> Beethoven at the time.
>
> I'm still just at the very start, I know. Are there any good books or
> URLs that you can recommend?
>
> This may seem a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway. What is the
> best way to come to a musical understanding of a work of this
> magnitude, both musically and historically - given that it is probably
> my favourite work of classical music already?
Study the 6th ("Pastoral"), it was written contemporaneously.
You are still young, there is much more. Progress to Brahms, Wagner ...
If they play Brahms 4th symphony, 2nd movement in heaven, I'll seriously
consider becoming a christian.
Androcles.
ansermetniac
If you want to hear this symphony stripped of all romantic excesses
and hear it as the classical masterpeice it is, I urge you to get the
the recording conducted by Ernest Ansermet. The sonorities will amaze
you.
Abbedd
________________
Go To Abbedd's Place For the MP3S of the Week
http://home.earthlink.net/~abbedd/abbeddsplace.html
Boycott Inglotted CDS
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"Knowing what without knowing why is not knowing what"
"If Music is important,then anti-Musicality is even more important"
___________________________________________________
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FDR
Peter H.M. Brooks
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> news:cu2r13$bia$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>
>>I'm working on a little personal project. I'd like to get a better
>>understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
>>
>>I have the score, the music in MIDI and a couple of recordings that
>>I'm very fond of. I also have some books on composition and I've read
>>some biography of Beethoven.
>>
>>What I'd like to do is get to understand the work itself in a lot more
>>depth. I understand the form of the symphony itself and a little of
>>the history of the form and some of the influences working on
>>Beethoven at the time.
>>
>>I'm still just at the very start, I know. Are there any good books or
>>URLs that you can recommend?
>>
>>This may seem a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway. What is the
>>best way to come to a musical understanding of a work of this
>>magnitude, both musically and historically - given that it is probably
>>my favourite work of classical music already?
>
>
> Study the 6th ("Pastoral"), it was written contemporaneously.
> You are still young, there is much more. Progress to Brahms, Wagner ...
> If they play Brahms 4th symphony, 2nd movement in heaven, I'll seriously
> consider becoming a christian.
> Androcles.
>
rich. I'm pretty keen on Wagner too, but I haven't started to understand
Brahms.
My question, though, is more direct. What exactly do you mean by
'study'? What should I do to understand Beethoven's 5th? I've loved it
as a piece of music for thirty years and listened to it often - and been
interested in different conductor's interpretation of it.
If it were possible to say that I 'understood' or 'appreciated' or 'was
an expert' on the symphony (not that I'm expecting to attain any of
these, just a better 'understanding' is my aim) then what would I have
to do to achieve that? How would I know when I had?
--
'When I use a word,' HUmpty Dumpty said ina rather scornful tojne, 'it
means just what I choose it so mean - neither more nor less' - Alice in
Wonderland, Lewis Carrol
Peter H.M. Brooks
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 18:08:01 +0200, "Peter H.M. Brooks"
> <pe...@new.co.za> wrote:
>
>
> If you want to hear this symphony stripped of all romantic excesses
> and hear it as the classical masterpeice it is, I urge you to get the
> the recording conducted by Ernest Ansermet. The sonorities will amaze
> you.
>
--
A society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding
citizens but by how it treats its criminals. -- Fydor Dostoevsky
Uncle Al
>
> I'm working on a little personal project. I'd like to get a better
> understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
> This may seem a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway. What is the best
> way to come to a musical understanding of a work of this magnitude, both
> musically and historically - given that it is probably my favourite work
> of classical music already?
[snip]
Since your enquiry is not into objective reality, any answer is both
correct and incorrect. It is only a matter of how loud you shout, how
well you seduce, or who can hook on and gain advantage. Any system
that admits John Cage and Jackson "Jack the Dripper" Pollock is
corrupt and meaningless.
Cf: The Sistine Chapel ceiling. All the forests ground up to record
learned commentary before the clening - subtle interplay of sepia
light and shadow, meaning of the figures - was revealed to be purest
bullshit. The ceiling was painted in comic book colors. Many of the
sexes were revealed misassigned when added genital covering were
removed during the restoration. Thousands of books on the subject
were purest puerile bullshit.
The new ones still are.
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Peter H.M. Brooks
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote:
>
>>I'm working on a little personal project. I'd like to get a better
>>understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
>
> [snip]
>
>
>>This may seem a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway. What is the best
>>way to come to a musical understanding of a work of this magnitude, both
>>musically and historically - given that it is probably my favourite work
>>of classical music already?
>
> [snip]
>
> Since your enquiry is not into objective reality, any answer is both
> correct and incorrect. It is only a matter of how loud you shout, how
> well you seduce, or who can hook on and gain advantage. Any system
> that admits John Cage and Jackson "Jack the Dripper" Pollock is
> corrupt and meaningless.
>
meaning of meaning.
I know that answers will differ. It is, I hope, fairly obvious that I'm
not looking for any post-modernist bullshit as an answer. However, to
claim that simply because post-modernist bullshit exists the whole of
meaning and aesthetics have gone for a ball of shit is nonsense.
Sensible and clever people still exist. Post-modernism is only there for
lazy proles - and lazy proles have always had something to bolster their
fragile egos, if only gin.
Aesthetics is still an important study carried out by clever, erudite
and well informed people.
Mc$hite didn't destroy haute cuisine - even if most proles don't know that.
--
A society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding
citizens but by how it treats its criminals. -- Fydor Dostoevsky
Matthew B. Tepper
essays about the symphony, some from Beethoven's time, some more recent.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Laurence Payne
<pe...@new.co.za> wrote:
>What I'd like to do is get to understand the work itself in a lot more
>depth. I understand the form of the symphony itself and a little of the
>history of the form and some of the influences working on Beethoven at
>the time.
I wouldn't worry too much about influences and history. There isn't
a "progression" of music. Beethoven used Sonata Form. That's maybe
all the history you need.
Just about every note of the first movement responds to analysis -
structural, melodic and just about any other sort you can think of.
Some music allows little analysis beyond "that's a nice tune!". Not
this one! You won't find much in there that directly spawned by the
first or second subject. Analyse away!
Is the extended coda too banal, or just right?
Oh yes. And pick just a couple of groups to post this in willya? My
system doesn't LET me crosspost to so many, I've had to throw a few
away manually.
Uncle Al
>
> Uncle Al wrote:
> > "Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote:
> >
> >>I'm working on a little personal project. I'd like to get a better
> >>understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >
> >>This may seem a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway. What is the best
> >>way to come to a musical understanding of a work of this magnitude, both
> >>musically and historically - given that it is probably my favourite work
> >>of classical music already?
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > Since your enquiry is not into objective reality, any answer is both
> > correct and incorrect. It is only a matter of how loud you shout, how
> > well you seduce, or who can hook on and gain advantage. Any system
> > that admits John Cage and Jackson "Jack the Dripper" Pollock is
> > corrupt and meaningless.
> >
> To call meaning, no matter how corrupt, 'meaningless' is to corrupt the
> meaning of meaning.
If it doesn't reduce to a predictive mathematical model falsifiable by
observation, it is arbitrary. If it is arbitrary it has no intrinsic
meaning. Aesthetics are meaningless. They are a peer vote amongst
posseurs.
I like my women smooth. That would not be a commensalist aesthetic in
any Mediterranean country France through Italy to Greece. If I
disliked shrill dissonances I would loathe Orientalist music starting
in Eastern Europe (abused clarinets) and throughout Asia. If redheads
were my thing I would be confined to Irish, Scottish, Dutch, and some
Northern Italians. Whether a huge-butted peppercorn-headed stout
African is prettier than a slim tall fair Englishwoman is without any
meaning at all. If you want surviving kids when the food supply is
chancey, you definitely want the porker over the empty larder.
> I know that answers will differ. It is, I hope, fairly obvious that I'm
> not looking for any post-modernist bullshit as an answer. However, to
> claim that simply because post-modernist bullshit exists the whole of
> meaning and aesthetics have gone for a ball of shit is nonsense.
Nope. It is an aesthetic call. It has no basis in reality. People
eat - by choice - Brussels sprouts, pickled beets, tofu, natto,
bran... De gustibus non est disputandum. Walking through an Oriental
market is a tummy tosser. Yet an East Indian would not feast on a
fine ribeye steak, a Jew would eschew a pork roast, Orientals do not
tolerate dairy products, and both Chinese and Koreans fancy eating dog
(possibly the only thing they agree upon other than hating Japanese).
> Sensible and clever people still exist. Post-modernism is only there for
> lazy proles - and lazy proles have always had something to bolster their
> fragile egos, if only gin.
When you have no uniform system of weights and measures any number is
correct. Was Picasso a great artist? His Blue Period (courtesy of A
French industrialist who synthesized ultramarine, thus also kicking
off Impressionism) shows he could put it on canvas. Jackson Polack
was a failed housepainter with a quick mouth who filled a need for
product.
> Aesthetics is still an important study carried out by clever, erudite
> and well informed people.
Nonsense. It is nothing deeper than cultural bias. The standard of
aesthetic excellence is something that can be acquired by not too many
and not without great cost. Frank Gehry's museum in Bilbao, Spain is
OK once. His Disney Hall is within driving distance of me. Two of
those buildings constitute one too many. He has erected that visual
horror all over the Earth. One Sidney, Australia opera House is OK.
Two would be excessive. The Liberal and Fine Arts are at best
personal bias and usually manipulated value for tax avoidance. 90% of
either's accumulated content is generally crap by any objective
standard.
> Mc$hite didn't destroy haute cuisine - even if most proles don't know that.
Table with small hole at center. Monkey's head protrudes. Guests
whang monkey's head with small mallets, reflect the scalp, then dip
past the fractured skull into the still living brain with small-bowled
long-handled spoons. Yum. How much haute can you stand? I find bleu
cheese to be utterly disgusting, yet I enjoy picked herring in cream
sauce with raw onions.
Do what you want. If it attracts a mob - in black tie or in sneakers
- you're in.
For all that, classicism and romantism disgorged great music and
nigger noise does not.
robert j. kolker
Uncle Al wrote:
> long-handled spoons. Yum. How much haute can you stand? I find bleu
> cheese to be utterly disgusting, yet I enjoy picked herring in cream
> sauce with raw onions.
That is because it has a good geschmect..
Bob Kolker
Michael
"understanding" the 5th. I find it very telling that LvB wrote both of
them at the same time, and originally, the numbering was reversed, if I
remember correctly, still at the time of the first performances and
only put in the order known today later.
Why did he change the numbering?
Maybe it was simply for practical considerations, maybe for no reason
at all.
Maybe LvB saw the 2 symphonies as one larger structure and wanted the
6th to be played after the 5th. There is some justification in doing
so, even though it is very rarely done when the 2 symphonies are played
next to each other. The 5th is so much more applause-driving, it always
gets placed last.
Without wanting to read too much into the music, it is clear that the
5th is a "story" of great conflict and final resolution and triumph
after a long and intensive struggle. The 6th is a vision of harmony,
only briefly interrupted, and if you follow the music attentively and
openly, you will find that the finale of the 6th is maybe even more
exciting than that of the 5th, because it carries you away on wave
after wave of exhilaration.
When you get scores of both pieces, you will easily be able to see that
in the first movement of the 5th, the classical principle of building
up phrases across even numbers of bars (e.g. 4,8) is almost constantly
interrupted. In the development section (after the repeat), the music
is pulled apart by conflicting motifs and interjections. Even the very
lyrical 2nd theme (after the horn call) which goes in phrases of 4
bars, is constantly "bothered" by the hammering main motif.
It might be interesting for you to know that the 2nd movement's long
main theme is actually based on a popular Viennese street song, the
kind that was sung by travelling singers with hand-cranked organs (I
don't know the correct English term). The text roughly ran something
like "I have no money and nothing in the world, I am eternally floating
around looking for a little piece of luck and happiness".
Androcles
"Michael" <msch...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:1107647672.8...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
LOL... what makes you think I don't have the score to all nine?
Androcles.
Peter H.M. Brooks
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote:
>
>
>>Aesthetics is still an important study carried out by clever, erudite
>>and well informed people.
>
>
> Nonsense. It is nothing deeper than cultural bias.
>
for you. You are forced, by your position, though to accept that I too
have an alternative reality, just as valid as yours. In mine sound
aesthetic judgement is important, valid, real, on the button and so forth.
You also have to accept that my view that post-modernist, or any other,
relativism, is utter bullshit is just as 'valid' as yours that claims
that it isn't.
So, on the cultural relativist scale I accept your point for what it is.
I said what I said above, that aesthetics is still and important study
carried out by clever, erudite and well informed people for a good
reason. I actually want an answer from such people.
Bullshit artist who claim that everything is relative are two a penny -
you don't need any brains for that. So the opinion of such is utterly
irrelevant to me.
--
Politics are not an instrument for effecting social change; they are
the art of making the inevitable appear to be a matter of wise human
choice. -Quentin Crisp, 'Resident Alien'
Michael
score yet.
Androcles
"Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
news:cu3mmm$fe0$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Uncle Al wrote:
[snip ]
Never mind Schwartz, he's a well known psychotic, almost as crazy as
George Hammond.
Androcles.
Peter H.M. Brooks
psychotic, I think it polite to let him know why you think he is talking
a load of arse. Firstly it is possible that you might phrase it in a way
that makes the penny drop and secondly it is possible that other people,
on the edge of similar psychic problems, might read the response and be
saved from the pit of despond.
I don't know, I'm an optimist, so there.
--
When we have got to the end of this chapter (but not before) we must
all turn back to the two blank chapters, on the account of which my
honour has lain bleeding this half hour--I stop it, by pulling off one
of my yellow slippers and throwing it with all my violence to the
opposite side of my room, with a declaration at the heel of it-- -
Tristam Shandy Chapter 4.LXXXIV.Laurence Sterne
Uncle Al
Raw fish, vinegar and pickling spices, sour cream, raw onion... My
woman likes it as I do. That was real important in the way of
things. A good relationship has convergent perversions. Creme brulet
is also good, but it doesn't engender lust.
Of course, that is an aesthetic call. "8^>)
You can do stuff even with an oboe. There isn't much you can do with
cymbals unless you hang them as gongs ("The President's Analyst").
Tedium...
William Sommerwerck
of music transcends mechanical dissection. That's what makes it great.
Bill McCutcheon
> Maybe LvB saw the 2 symphonies as one larger structure and wanted the
> 6th to be played after the 5th.
LvB's own presentation of the two symphonies seems to argue against that.
IIRC, at the 1809 concert which premiered both, he opened the program with
the 6th, closed it with the 5th, and had several pieces in between,
including the 4th PC.
-- Bill McC.
Uncle Al
>
> Androcles wrote:
> > "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> > news:cu3mmm$fe0$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> >
> >>Uncle Al wrote:
> >
> > [snip ]
> >
> > Never mind Schwartz, he's a well known psychotic, almost as crazy as
> > George Hammond.
> >
> Thank you for letting me know.
<http://www.google.com/search?q=Androcles+fumble+site%3Ausers.pandora.be>
http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Gibberish.html
You two are well matched.
Androcles
> Androcles wrote:
>> "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
>> news:cu3mmm$fe0$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>>
>>>Uncle Al wrote:
>>
>> [snip ]
>>
>> Never mind Schwartz, he's a well known psychotic, almost as crazy as
>> George Hammond.
>>
> Thank you for letting me know. Nevertheless, even if somebody is
> psychotic, I think it polite to let him know why you think he is
> talking a load of arse. Firstly it is possible that you might phrase
> it in a way that makes the penny drop and secondly it is possible that
> other people, on the edge of similar psychic problems, might read the
> response and be saved from the pit of despond.
>
> I don't know, I'm an optimist, so there.
Oh, you can tell him if you like, for all the good it will do.
Schwartz ("Uncle" Alice) gets his rocks off by following his
own standard procedure:
1) Snip and say "[snip crap]". (Schwartz doesn't actually read the
post.)
2) Insult to poster by saying "psychotic imbecile".
This, Schwartz finds thrilling.
Nobody else gives a damn, but Schwartz is happy.
The best way to deal with Schwartz is simply ignore the idiot,
but failing that, follow his own procedure, its all he'll ever
understand anyway.
Then you'll have a long thread of
[snip crap]
You are a psychotic imbecile.
[snip crap]
You are a psychotic imbecile.
[snip crap]
You are a psychotic imbecile.
[snip crap]
You are a psychotic imbecile.
[snip crap]
You are a psychotic imbecile.
[snip crap]
You are a psychotic imbecile.
[snip crap]
You are a psychotic imbecile.
ad infinitum ad nausem
This demonstrates that one of the two parties involved really IS
psychotic, and believe me, I've tested the theory, Schwartz WILL have
the last word.
Androcles.
Androcles
"Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
news:42057C01...@hate.spam.net...
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote:
>>
>> Androcles wrote:
>> > "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
>> > news:cu3mmm$fe0$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
>> >
>> >>Uncle Al wrote:
>> >
>> > [snip ]
>> >
>> > Never mind Schwartz, he's a well known psychotic, almost as crazy
>> > as
>> > George Hammond.
>> >
>> Thank you for letting me know.
>
> <http://www.google.com/search?q=Androcles+fumble+site%3Ausers.pandora.be>
> http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Gibberish.html
>
> You two are well matched.
Not as well matched as you and George Hammond or you and the fumble
mumbler.
Is winter still at apogee, Schwartz?
Androcles.
David Sherman
This thread got real constructive in a hurry.
This poor fellow who wants to get to know Beethoven's 5th a little better is
probably thinking about selling his CD collection on Ebay by now.
Way to go guys!
ji...@specsol-spam-sux.com
> Way to go guys!
Posting this in sci.physics is about as bright as wearing a cat suit to
a pit bull show.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove -spam-sux to reply.
Nightingale
ji...@specsol-spam-sux.com wrote:
> In sci.physics David Sherman <possi...@possible20.org> wrote:
>
>>Well, well, well
>
>
>>This thread got real constructive in a hurry.
>
>
>>This poor fellow who wants to get to know Beethoven's 5th a little better is
>>probably thinking about selling his CD collection on Ebay by now.
>
>
>>Way to go guys!
>
>
> Posting this in sci.physics is about as bright as wearing a cat suit to
> a pit bull show.
>
It's a strange combination of groups. What is alt.deposit about?
--
Io la Musica son, ch'ai dolci accenti
So far tranquillo ogni turbato core,
Et or di nobil ira et or d'amore
Poss'infiammar le più gelate menti.
Peter H.M. Brooks
> On a certain level, this sort of analysis is pointless, because any great piece
> of music transcends mechanical dissection. That's what makes it great.
>
mechanical dissection of great pieces - more value than in dissecting
rubbish anyway - and there is also the question as to why some music is
transcendent. It isn't magic, there must be a reason. If there's a
reason then, one day, somebody might work out what it is.
--
Politics are not an instrument for effecting social change; they are
the art of making the inevitable appear to be a matter of wise human
choice. -Quentin Crisp, 'Resident Alien'
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
>>Androcles wrote:
> Oh, you can tell him if you like, for all the good it will do.
>
> Schwartz ("Uncle" Alice) gets his rocks off by following his
> own standard procedure:
>
same way, they have different names, but the tune is the identical. I
have wondered if they are, perhaps, an experiment into artificial
language that's escaped from the lab. If that is the case then they
aren't a very successful experiment - but we can hope (again if that is
the case) that the software will improve over time, something that we
can't if they really are human.
--
"There was never so mekill myschefe, robbry, spoiling and vengeance in
Scotland than there is nowe..which I praye our Lord God to continewe." -
Lord Thomas Dacre, quoted by George MacDonald Fraser in 'The Candlemass
Road'
Peter H.M. Brooks
me off...
--
"Aye, of that Chingis was it said that while he carpeted all Asia
with bones, yet might a virgin with a bag of gold walk the length of his
dominions without harm, so perfect was his governance" - George
MacDonald Fraser, 'The Candlemass Road'
Peter H.M. Brooks
> In sci.physics David Sherman <possi...@possible20.org> wrote:
>
>>Well, well, well
>
>
>>This thread got real constructive in a hurry.
>
>
>>This poor fellow who wants to get to know Beethoven's 5th a little better is
>>probably thinking about selling his CD collection on Ebay by now.
>
>
>>Way to go guys!
>
>
> Posting this in sci.physics is about as bright as wearing a cat suit to
> a pit bull show.
>
because I searched for useful threads before posting (something I think
a nice thing to do) and found quite a few interesting threads on music
had occurred in sci.physics. I thought it odd myself, but, nevertheless,
it had happened.
--
"Aye, of that Chingis was it said that while he carpeted all Asia
with bones, yet might a virgin with a bag of gold walk the length of his
dominions without harm, so perfect was his governance" - George
MacDonald Fraser, 'The Candlemass Road'
Peter H.M. Brooks
>
>> Posting this in sci.physics is about as bright as wearing a cat suit to
>> a pit bull show.
>>
>
> It's a strange combination of groups. What is alt.deposit about?
>
cross-post threads to so that I can watch them without needing to
subscribe to all the different groups.
Later on I can follow the whole discussion in google, but that is slower.
--
"Aye, of that Chingis was it said that while he carpeted all Asia
with bones, yet might a virgin with a bag of gold walk the length of his
dominions without harm, so perfect was his governance" - George
MacDonald Fraser, 'The Candlemass Road'
Peter H.M. Brooks
> On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 11:08:01 -0500, Peter H.M. Brooks wrote
>
> It's really easy.
> Just get your hands on every recorded version (Public Library) and listen,
> listen, listen.
> Your ears will inform your brain and soul over a period of time, and it will
> sink in on it's own.
> Don't try to hard, you'll miss out on the sheer magic and chemistry that LVB
> will work on you.
>
Yes, I've done that bit over a few decades.
>
> Leonard Bernstein has an interesting little discourse about the 5th if you
> can find the CBS Masterworks or Sony CD's of the 5th.
>
I'll have a hunt for it - thank you!
>
> For me, LVB is fairly much self explanatory.
> No need for in depth analysis, he lays it out perfectly clear in most of his
> compositions, and it takes a lifetime to really grasp and appreciate what he
> has done.
>
Mmm. If somebody has done that then, just as with a critic of literature
or painting or dance, it should be possible to read what this
appreciation involves. This short-cut is unlikely to help unless you
have some appreciation of the piece, but, if you can, then it should. If
you read a few critics who've written about Titus Andronicus and you've
even read the play, that still isn't a substitute for watching a couple
of performances by different people. Still, if you have then the critics
can give you new insights into either technique or more fundamental
reasons why it is so chilling - maybe it plays on particular parts of
the psyche and knowing those parts better can help understand its working.
--
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said ina rather scornful tojne, 'it
means just what I choose it so mean - neither more nor less' - Alice in
Wonderland, Lewis Carrol
Peter H.M. Brooks
I take your point - I suppose that it could be said to be true of any
music you choose.
I'm wanting a little more, though, not anything historical, I agree,
just an analysis - I'm sure that there must be many - that isn't bullshit.
--
"You will not ask me what is the point of envy.--You are determined, I
see, to have no curiosity.--You are wise--but _I_ cannot be wise. Emma,
I must tell you what you will not ask, though I may wish it unsaid the
next moment." -- Emma, Jane Austen
Androcles
Och, laddie, Schwartz would nae ken.
Franneke
> This may seem a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway. What is the
> best way to come to a musical understanding of a work of this
> magnitude, both musically and historically - given that it is
> probably my favourite work of classical music already?
One thing that might help is to study Beethoven's influences. In this case
Clementi is your man. Beethoven did admire him much, and he was inspired by
the way Clementi invented and treated his themes.
Take Clementi's sonata op. 34#3, conposed years before the 5th. Right after
the slow introduction we hear a short motive consisting of four notes, which
are the basis of the development of the movement. Very similar to
Beethoven's 1st movement.
We can conclude that Beethoven translated this sonata's structure to a
symphonic form.
And combined it with the spirit of the French Revolution's music.
[removed some crossposted groups]
Franneke
> This may seem a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway. What is the
> best way to come to a musical understanding of a work of this
> magnitude, both musically and historically - given that it is
> probably my favourite work of classical music already?
One thing that might help is to study Beethoven's influences. In this case
Clementi is your man. Beethoven did admire him much, and he was inspired by
the way Clementi invented and treated his themes.
Take Clementi's sonata op. 34#2, conposed years before the 5th. Right after
Peter H.M. Brooks
I have also (in a quite different vein) been trying to get a copy of the
recently released 'John Lenon's Jukebox', a portable jukebox containing
his favourite songs. I think that it will be instructive to listen to
them too.
--
When we have got to the end of this chapter (but not before) we must
all turn back to the two blank chapters, on the account of which my
honour has lain bleeding this half hour--I stop it, by pulling off one
of my yellow slippers and throwing it with all my violence to the
opposite side of my room, with a declaration at the heel of it-- -
Tristam Shandy Chapter 4.LXXXIV.Laurence Sterne
Franneke
> Franneke wrote:
>> Peter H.M. Brooks tikte:
>>
>>
>>> This may seem a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway. What is the
>>> best way to come to a musical understanding of a work of this
>>> magnitude, both musically and historically - given that it is
>>> probably my favourite work of classical music already?
>>
>>
>> One thing that might help is to study Beethoven's influences. In
>> this case Clementi is your man. Beethoven did admire him much, and
>> he was inspired by the way Clementi invented and treated his themes.
>> Take Clementi's sonata op. 34#2, conposed years before the 5th.
>> Right after the slow introduction we hear a short motive consisting
>> of four notes, which are the basis of the development of the
>> movement. Very similar to Beethoven's 1st movement.
>> We can conclude that Beethoven translated this sonata's structure to
>> a symphonic form.
>> And combined it with the spirit of the French Revolution's music.
>>
>> [removed some crossposted groups]
>>
>>
> Thankyou, that really is useful - I'll look for some recordings.
Be aware though: Clementi's output doesn't always have the same high
quality, and he experimented with many different styles.
The mentioned G minor "key" sonata from 1795 was recorded by Horowitz in the
50's, and by Andreas Staier, on a period piano, a few years ago.
> I have also (in a quite different vein) been trying to get a copy of
> the recently released 'John Lenon's Jukebox', a portable jukebox
> containing his favourite songs. I think that it will be instructive
> to listen to them too.
I bet it would, and it'll prove Picasso's saying that "a good artist
borrows, while a great artist steals." John Lennon was a great thief.
Michael
thought that LvB might have intended to indicate the "overall
dramturgy" that I hinted at by renumbering the symphonies that way.
But that is probably reading too much into it.
pete
>
> I'm working on a little personal project. I'd like to get a better
> understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066921/
... and some old Bugs Bunny cartoons.
--
pete
Laurence Payne
wrote:
>> Uncle Al wrote:
>[snip ]
>
>Never mind Schwartz, he's a well known psychotic, almost as crazy as
>George Hammond.
>Androcles.
It's interesting that he writes several thought-provoking pages, then
sabotages his credibility in the last sentence :-)
Like proposing a superb and comprehensive plan for developing Israel,
then topping it off with "By the way - some of these ideas were shared
by Hitler!"
That doesn't make them bad ideas. But you've sure lost your audience
:-)
Laurence Payne
Laurence Payne
<will...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>On a certain level, this sort of analysis is pointless, because any great piece
>of music transcends mechanical dissection. That's what makes it great.
So it's pointless to analyse the aspects we CAN analyse? Why?
Laurence Payne
Richard Schultz
: Any system that admits John Cage and Jackson "Jack the Dripper" Pollock is
: corrupt and meaningless.
For those who are reading this in the music groups, Uncle Al is a well
known kook who has been regaling the science groups with tales of his
extreme smartness for many years now. It's good to see that he is now
extending his range into music and art as things about which he knows nothing.
(Adding "ignoramus" to "liar" among his many qualifications.)
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time." -- The French Knight
Laurence Payne
<pe...@new.co.za> wrote:
>
>I'm wanting a little more, though, not anything historical, I agree,
>just an analysis - I'm sure that there must be many - that isn't bullshit.
There's a book "The Joy of Music" by Leonard Bernstein. It includes
a transcript of a TV show where he dissects Beethoven 5.
It's available on Amazon, and doubtless elsewhere. Not expensive.
Androcles
"pete" <pfi...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:42060F...@mindspring.com...
"Kill the wabbit" is from Wagner.
Androcles.
Laurence Payne
>> I'm working on a little personal project. I'd like to get a better
>> understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
>
>http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066921/
>
>... and some old Bugs Bunny cartoons.
If I can move that over to Tom & Jerry....
Anyone who doesn't rate Scott Bradley right up there with Beethoven
hasn't got ears :-)
William Sommerwerck
piece
>> of music transcends mechanical dissection. That's what makes it great.
> So it's pointless to analyse the aspects we CAN analyse? Why?
Note that I said "on a certain level."
Two works can have the same overall structure and development, but one is
thrilling and involving, the other pedestrian. Unless the analysis explains why
this occurs, there is little point to it.
Peter H.M. Brooks
--
"They cooked him on the Nine Stane Rig
And a grand brothe they made on't,
And had his gear and beasts awa'
His good wife and his daughters twa,
He, 'twas salt tae the broth they made on't.
- Scotch ballad, quoted by George MacDonald Fraser in 'The Candlemass Road'
Gramm...@mindspring.com
> I'm working on a little personal project. I'd like to get a better
> understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
>
I'm
> very fond of. I also have some books on composition and I've read
some
> biography of Beethoven.
>
> What I'd like to do is get to understand the work itself in a lot
more
> depth. I understand the form of the symphony itself and a little of
the
> history of the form and some of the influences working on Beethoven
at
> the time.
>
> URLs that you can recommend?
>
> This may seem a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway. What is the
best
> way to come to a musical understanding of a work of this magnitude,
both
> musically and historically - given that it is probably my favourite
work
> of classical music already?
I have an old Columbia LP called "Leonard Bernstein on Beethoven." Side
1 is described as "Leonard Bernstein looks at Beethoven's rejected
sketches for the first movement and demonstrates, with orchestral
illustrations, how this work would have sounded if Beethoven had not
rejected them." It's rather interesting. The second side of the LP is a
performance of the entire symphony, but not by Bernstein. It's Bruno
Walter.
There's no catalog number. It has "prepared exclusively for LINCOLN
CONTINENTAL" on the front and "NOT FOR SALE" on the back.
I'd also recommend the John Eliot Gardiner version on a CD called "The
Revolutionary Beethoven." It's shockingly fast, but after I accepted
the tempo, I found it very exciting.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:cu4o32$bt9$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net:
> Franneke wrote:
>> Peter H.M. Brooks tikte:
>>
>>> This may seem a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway. What is the
>>> best way to come to a musical understanding of a work of this
>>> magnitude, both musically and historically - given that it is
>>> probably my favourite work of classical music already?
>>
>> One thing that might help is to study Beethoven's influences. In this
>> case Clementi is your man. Beethoven did admire him much, and he was
>> inspired by the way Clementi invented and treated his themes.
>> Take Clementi's sonata op. 34#2, conposed years before the 5th. Right
>> after the slow introduction we hear a short motive consisting of four
>> notes, which are the basis of the development of the movement. Very
>> similar to Beethoven's 1st movement.
>> We can conclude that Beethoven translated this sonata's structure to a
>> symphonic form.
>> And combined it with the spirit of the French Revolution's music.
>>
>> [removed some crossposted groups]
[removed even more]
> Thankyou, that really is useful - I'll look for some recordings.
>
> I have also (in a quite different vein) been trying to get a copy of the
> recently released 'John Lenon's Jukebox', a portable jukebox containing
> his favourite songs. I think that it will be instructive to listen to
> them too.
Out of curiosity, any classical content there? Wouldn't be surprised.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:42060F...@mindspring.com:
> Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
>>
>> I'm working on a little personal project. I'd like to get a better
>> understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
>
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066921/
That's for the 9th, you silly person.
> ... and some old Bugs Bunny cartoons.
That's for Rossini, Wagner, etc.
Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:1107708851....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> I have an old Columbia LP called "Leonard Bernstein on Beethoven." Side
> 1 is described as "Leonard Bernstein looks at Beethoven's rejected
> sketches for the first movement and demonstrates, with orchestral
> illustrations, how this work would have sounded if Beethoven had not
> rejected them." It's rather interesting. The second side of the LP is a
> performance of the entire symphony, but not by Bernstein. It's Bruno
> Walter.
>
> There's no catalog number. It has "prepared exclusively for LINCOLN
> CONTINENTAL" on the front and "NOT FOR SALE" on the back.
There was, of course, a "regular" release of just the essay on a bonus 7"
disc included with the original release of Bernstein's own recording of the
work with the NYP. This also turned up on an LP side of the full box of
the symphonies (with the gold-leaf embossed face of Beethoven on the
front), and in at least one CD issue as filler to the symphony (also with
the essay in some other languages).
William Sommerwerck
> disc included with the original release of Bernstein's own recording of the
> work with the NYP. This also turned up on an LP side of the full box of
> the symphonies (with the gold-leaf embossed face of Beethoven on the
> front), and in at least one CD issue as filler to the symphony (also with
> the essay in some other languages).
The Eroica with the NYPO also included a bonus 7" disk.
Bill McCutcheon
"Guy Gordon" <gor...@NOSPAMwhite-crane.com> wrote in message
news:cnkb015ev9smfl7d4...@4ax.com...
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote:
>
>>I'm working on a little personal project. I'd like to get a better
>>understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
>
> Professor
> Peter Shickely. Find one of his PDQ Bach albums with "New Horizons in
> Music
> Appreciation".
>
>
You'll have more luck if you luck under "Schickele." The New Horizons cut
is from his "PDQ Bach on the Air" album, reprised on "The Wurst of PDQ
Bach."
-- Bill McC.
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:110cpq0...@corp.supernews.com:
Also included in the LP box (I think sharing a side with the essay on the
5th) and I think also issued on CD.
Is "Humor in Music" still imprisoned behind the vinyl curtain?
William Sommerwerck
If you mean the albums from The Great Dane, no. They've long been available on
CD.
William Sommerwerck
> cut is from his "PDQ Bach on the Air" album, reprised on "The Wurst
> of PDQ Bach."
There's a quad version of the LP in which the commentators sit LR and RR.
I wonder who performed the first movement. Was it an existing performance with
the horn flub cut in, or a new recording?
Laurence Payne
<will...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>> So it's pointless to analyse the aspects we CAN analyse? Why?
>
>Note that I said "on a certain level."
>
>Two works can have the same overall structure and development, but one is
>thrilling and involving, the other pedestrian. Unless the analysis explains why
>this occurs, there is little point to it.
Don't be too sure that analysis can't go a long way toward describing
such things.
Bill McCutcheon
"William Sommerwerck" <will...@nwlink.com> wrote in message
news:110d0tb...@corp.supernews.com...
credits only I Virtuosi di Hoople. :-)
-- Bill McC.
Uncle Al
>
> "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> news:cu3nc0$h7o$3...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> > Androcles wrote:
> >> "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> >> news:cu3mmm$fe0$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> >>
> >>>Uncle Al wrote:
> >>
> >> [snip ]
> >>
> >> Never mind Schwartz, he's a well known psychotic, almost as crazy as
> >> George Hammond.
> >>
> > psychotic, I think it polite to let him know why you think he is
> > talking a load of arse. Firstly it is possible that you might phrase
> > it in a way that makes the penny drop and secondly it is possible that
> > other people, on the edge of similar psychic problems, might read the
> > response and be saved from the pit of despond.
> >
> > I don't know, I'm an optimist, so there.
>
> Oh, you can tell him if you like, for all the good it will do.
>
> Schwartz ("Uncle" Alice) gets his rocks off by following his
> own standard procedure:
>
> 1) Snip and say "[snip crap]". (Schwartz doesn't actually read the
> post.)
> 2) Insult to poster by saying "psychotic imbecile".
>
> This, Schwartz finds thrilling.
>
> Nobody else gives a damn, but Schwartz is happy.
>
> The best way to deal with Schwartz is simply ignore the idiot,
> but failing that, follow his own procedure, its all he'll ever
> understand anyway.
>
> Then you'll have a long thread of
>
> [snip crap]
> You are a psychotic imbecile.
> [snip crap]
> You are a psychotic imbecile.
> [snip crap]
> You are a psychotic imbecile.
> [snip crap]
> You are a psychotic imbecile.
> [snip crap]
> You are a psychotic imbecile.
> [snip crap]
> You are a psychotic imbecile.
> [snip crap]
> You are a psychotic imbecile.
>
> ad infinitum ad nausem
>
> This demonstrates that one of the two parties involved really IS
> psychotic, and believe me, I've tested the theory, Schwartz WILL have
> the last word.
>
> Androcles.
<http://www.google.com/search?q=Androcles+fumble+site%3Ausers.pandora.be>
http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Gibberish.html
--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf
Uncle Al
> > Androcles wrote:
> >> "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> >> news:cu3nc0$h7o$3...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> >>
> >>>Androcles wrote:
> >> Oh, you can tell him if you like, for all the good it will do.
> >>
> >> Schwartz ("Uncle" Alice) gets his rocks off by following his
> >> own standard procedure:
> >>
> > same way, they have different names, but the tune is the identical. I
> > have wondered if they are, perhaps, an experiment into artificial
> > language that's escaped from the lab. If that is the case then they
> > aren't a very successful experiment - but we can hope (again if that
> > is the case) that the software will improve over time, something that
> > we can't if they really are human.
> >
> >
> > --
> > "There was never so mekill myschefe, robbry, spoiling and vengeance
> > in Scotland than there is nowe..which I praye our Lord God to
> > continewe." - Lord Thomas Dacre, quoted by George MacDonald Fraser in> Och, laddie, Schwartz would nae ken.
Uncle Al
>
> "Uncle Al" <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote in message
> news:42057C01...@hate.spam.net...
> > "Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote:
> >>
> >> Androcles wrote:
> >> > "Peter H.M. Brooks" <pe...@new.co.za> wrote in message
> >> >
> >> >>Uncle Al wrote:
> >> >
> >> > [snip ]
> >> >
> >> > Never mind Schwartz, he's a well known psychotic, almost as crazy
> >> > as
> >> > George Hammond.
> >> >
> >> Thank you for letting me know.
> >
> > http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physics/Fumbles/Gibberish.html
> >
> > You two are well matched.
>
> Not as well matched as you and George Hammond or you and the fumble
> mumbler.
> Is winter still at apogee, Schwartz?
>
> Androcles.
Uncle Al
Uncle Al
>
> In rec.music.classical.recordings Uncle Al <Uncl...@hate.spam.net> wrote:
>
> : Any system that admits John Cage and Jackson "Jack the Dripper" Pollock is
> : corrupt and meaningless.
>
> For those who are reading this in the music groups, Uncle Al is a well
> known kook who has been regaling the science groups with tales of his
> extreme smartness for many years now. It's good to see that he is now
> extending his range into music and art as things about which he knows nothing.
> (Adding "ignoramus" to "liar" among his many qualifications.)
One suspects Schultz suffered a lifelong persistent trauma when he
misfingered during his public peformance of John Cage's 4'33" and
browned his shorts as the audience booed.
Matthew Fields
Peter H.M. Brooks <pe...@new.co.za> wrote:
>Uncle Al wrote:
>> "Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Aesthetics is still an important study carried out by clever, erudite
>>>and well informed people.
>>
>>
>> Nonsense. It is nothing deeper than cultural bias.
> >
>If you are a relativist (and, maybe a post-modernist) then that is fine
>for you.
One can be an aesthetic relativist without being anything like a factual
relativist or a post-modernist.
> You are forced, by your position, though to accept that I too
>have an alternative reality, just as valid as yours. In mine sound
>aesthetic judgement is important, valid, real, on the button and so forth.
This is nonsense based on the mistaken notion that aesthetic
relativism entails factual relativism. Beauty is not a form of truth,
no matter how many ways you try to argue from the mistaken assumption
to the contrary. I regret to report that your arguments have amounted
to exactly the bullshit you'ved accused others of making.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Matthew Fields
William Sommerwerck <will...@nwlink.com> wrote:
>On a certain level, this sort of analysis is pointless, because any great piece
>of music transcends mechanical dissection. That's what makes it great.
If it enhances the listener's fun, it's served its point.
Matthew Fields
David Sherman <possi...@possible20.org> wrote:
>Well, well, well
>
>This thread got real constructive in a hurry.
>
>This poor fellow who wants to get to know Beethoven's 5th a little better is
>probably thinking about selling his CD collection on Ebay by now.
>
>Way to go guys!
>
I was away for the weekend. Let me offer a suggestion.
Get to know the piece by memory, by listening to it many many times.
Follow the score with the recording.
See if you can follow the modulatory pattern i-III i-III V-i over
the course of the first movement. See if you can identify how the
motifs and instrumentation articulate this pattern for you--the
symphonic structure of the movement (hint: Each time that III arrives,
there's a horn motif, so then what happens the *third* time that
horn motif appears?).
Try to discover the underlying patterns in the remaining movements.
See what you can say about how the keys of the movements fit together
as a whole. See if you intuit anything about the opening motif
reappearing in the last movement, and fill in as many details as you
can to support that intuition.
Attend a live performance and see whether you hear more details
and excitement than ever before.
Matthew B. Tepper
>> Is "Humor in Music" still imprisoned behind the vinyl curtain?
>
> If you mean the albums from The Great Dane, no. They've long been
> available on CD.
No, I mean Bernstein's Columbia LP, "Humor in Music," not Victor Borge's
Columbia LP, "Comedy in Music." Lenny's disc even included a snippet from
Szell's "Eroica" because he himself hadn't recorded it yet. It even had an
acknowledgement to Epic Records thanking them for the rights!
Matthew B. Tepper
Weren't you listening? It was Heilige Dankgesang and the New York Mills
Philharmonic!
Peter H.M. Brooks
> In article <cu3mmm$fe0$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>,
> Peter H.M. Brooks <pe...@new.co.za> wrote:
>
>>You are forced, by your position, though to accept that I too
>>have an alternative reality, just as valid as yours. In mine sound
>>aesthetic judgement is important, valid, real, on the button and so forth.
>
>
> This is nonsense based on the mistaken notion that aesthetic
> relativism entails factual relativism. Beauty is not a form of truth,
> no matter how many ways you try to argue from the mistaken assumption
> to the contrary. I regret to report that your arguments have amounted
> to exactly the bullshit you'ved accused others of making.
>
I appreciate your opinion nevertheless, maybe I'll learn the arguments
behind it some time.
--
"Aye, of that Chingis was it said that while he carpeted all Asia
with bones, yet might a virgin with a bag of gold walk the length of his
dominions without harm, so perfect was his governance" - George
MacDonald Fraser, 'The Candlemass Road'
Richard Schultz
: One suspects Schultz suffered a lifelong persistent trauma when he
: misfingered during his public peformance of John Cage's 4'33" and
: browned his shorts as the audience booed.
Actually, the audience booing would make that performance the second most
successful one in history. Too bad that you'll never know or understand why.
I mean, it's amusing how willing you are to add classical music to the
list of "things about which you are ignorant but are willing to comment
anyway," but it's too bad for you that you'll never know anything about it.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You don't even have a clue about which clue you're missing."
Matthew Fields
Peter H.M. Brooks <pe...@new.co.za> wrote:
>Matthew Fields wrote:
>> In article <cu3mmm$fe0$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>,
>> Peter H.M. Brooks <pe...@new.co.za> wrote:
>>
>>>You are forced, by your position, though to accept that I too
>>>have an alternative reality, just as valid as yours. In mine sound
>>>aesthetic judgement is important, valid, real, on the button and so forth.
>>
>>
>> This is nonsense based on the mistaken notion that aesthetic
>> relativism entails factual relativism. Beauty is not a form of truth,
>> no matter how many ways you try to argue from the mistaken assumption
>> to the contrary. I regret to report that your arguments have amounted
>> to exactly the bullshit you'ved accused others of making.
>>
>Keats notwithstanding.
Keats is a poet, not a philosopher of science nor of art.
>I appreciate your opinion nevertheless, maybe I'll learn the arguments
>behind it some time.
This would be a good place to start:
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html
A bit of exposure to ethnomusicology or even just music history can be
a good antidote to the supposition that beauty is universally reckoned
and/or objective fact. And that's a good thing, too. The study of
beauty is the study of **people** and their responses to stimuli.
One cannot say anything coherent about beauty which leaves people
out of the situation.
Robert Briggs
> > Franneke wrote:
> > >
> > > > This may seem a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway.
> > > [removed some crossposted groups]
>
> [removed even more]
Matthew, the OP seems to have admitted that "alt.deposit" is a
pseudo-private NG of his own devising so that he can crosspost
massively and read all the responses in one place.
Before I noticed the wide distribution, I considered mentioning
some comments by Marin Alsop about Beethoven's Fifth and Brahms'
First - but he can figure out for himself which magazine to buy,
while I listen to the end of her "Enigma" with the Bournemouth
Symphony Orchestra on Radio 3 ...
guenther.v...@gmx.de
> Matthew Fields wrote:
> > In article <cu3mmm$fe0$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>,
> > Peter H.M. Brooks <pe...@new.co.za> wrote:
> >
> >>You are forced, by your position, though to accept that I too
> >>have an alternative reality, just as valid as yours. In mine sound
> >>aesthetic judgement is important, valid, real, on the button and so
forth.
> >
> >
> > This is nonsense based on the mistaken notion that aesthetic
> > relativism entails factual relativism. Beauty is not a form of
truth,
> > no matter how many ways you try to argue from the mistaken
assumption
> > to the contrary. I regret to report that your arguments have
amounted
> > to exactly the bullshit you'ved accused others of making.
> >
> Keats notwithstanding.
>
> I appreciate your opinion nevertheless, maybe I'll learn the
arguments
> behind it some time.
What an ugly wart of a moron troll you are. You initiated a 50 postings
long thread, and it turns out you don't know shit from shinola. You
don't know shit about your OP, you don't know shit about the content of
the replies you got, and you are not willed to learn anything at all.
Go crap in your own living room .
John W. Kennedy
It was the early-60's Vanguard recording by the Vienna Philharmonic; the
horn flub was patched before the tape was used to master the LP, of
course, but you could tell the patch was there; the recording had
acquired something of a reputation. Somehow Schickele got permission
from Vanguard (I suppose it helped that they had his recording contract)
to use the original master for "New Horizons".
---
John W. Kennedy
"...if you had to fall in love with someone who was evil, I can see why
it was her."
-- "Alias"
Bill McCutcheon
"John W. Kennedy" <jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:Ex9Od.833$ye1...@fe12.lga...
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>>>You'll have more luck if you luck under "Schickele." The New Horizons
>>>cut is from his "PDQ Bach on the Air" album, reprised on "The Wurst
>>>of PDQ Bach."
>>
>>
>> There's a quad version of the LP in which the commentators sit LR and
>> RR.
>>
>> I wonder who performed the first movement. Was it an existing
>> performance with
>> the horn flub cut in, or a new recording?
>
> It was the early-60's Vanguard recording by the Vienna Philharmonic; the
> horn flub was patched before the tape was used to master the LP, of
> course, but you could tell the patch was there; the recording had
> acquired something of a reputation. Somehow Schickele got permission
> from Vanguard (I suppose it helped that they had his recording contract)
> to use the original master for "New Horizons".
>
> ---
> John W. Kennedy
Interesting! Where did you find that? [I don't doubt your accuracy, just
curious where one finds such a bit of minutiae. It's not in the notes
with either of the two recordings I have.]
-- Bill McC.
david...@aol.com
not composed and which Cage never claimed were composed--and the
classic poured (and mostly NOT dripped) Pollocks of 1949-1951 or 52 is
a colossal mistake.
Pollock never dreamed of going in search of the random, which is the
easiest thing in the world to find. There is as much fundamental
artistic control behind those pictures as there is behind any painting
by Giotto or Rembrandt or Manet or Picasso . . . except at the very
most microscopic local level where the paint is indeed allowed to run
to some extent where it will. (Pollock's work is also profoundly
traditional, drawing on Pollock's selective but intimate knowledge of,
first, the Mexican muralists, then Picasso, Miro, Masson, and Mondrian
and, beyond them, impressionism.) Pollock exerted something like a
calligrapher's control over the patterns on his canvases, and when he
did lose control, he destroyed the canvas and started over. Indeed, he
practiced delivering the paint to the canvas in various ways, learning
various spatter and other effects that could not only be produced but
controlled and becoming a virtuoso master of their production.
Nor was Pollock the "action painter" that Harold Rosenberg
misunderstandingly claimed he was, an existentialist Romantic locked in
epic struggle with the canvas, a novel case of the psychological and
aesthetic interest being displaced from the result on the canvas to the
action of the artist. Pollock wasn't even an abstract "expressionist"
like his friend, De Kooning. Pollock's luminous canvases are
"impressionist," not "expressionist," akin to the very late Monet with
his vast scumbled surfaces, and the classic poured Pollock's did in
fact spark a Renaissance in interest in the late Monet in the early
50's.
-david gable
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:Ex9Od.833$ye1...@fe12.lga:
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>>
>> I wonder who performed the first movement. Was it an existing
>> performance with the horn flub cut in, or a new recording?
>
> It was the early-60's Vanguard recording by the Vienna Philharmonic; the
> horn flub was patched before the tape was used to master the LP, of
> course, but you could tell the patch was there; the recording had
> acquired something of a reputation. Somehow Schickele got permission
> from Vanguard (I suppose it helped that they had his recording contract)
> to use the original master for "New Horizons".
Any particular conductor, or just the orchestra playing without one?
David Nakamoto
news:cu4f28$a9l$1...@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Fark wrote:
>>
> Mmm. If somebody has done that then, just as with a critic of literature or
> painting or dance, it should be possible to read what this appreciation
> involves. This short-cut is unlikely to help unless you have some appreciation
> of the piece, but, if you can, then it should. If you read a few critics
> who've written about Titus Andronicus and you've even read the play, that
> still isn't a substitute for watching a couple of performances by different
> people. Still, if you have then the critics can give you new insights into
> either technique or more fundamental reasons why it is so chilling - maybe it
> plays on particular parts of the psyche and knowing those parts better can
> help understand its working.
I believe that understanding what you're trying to do, whether it's play a
musical instrument or listen to music, can help in getting more from the
experience than just jumping right in. This seems true of opera where, unless
you're lucky, you won't understand the words and hence getting a translation can
help a lot. Or put it another way, you'll have a better chance of hearing
something if you know what it is you're listening for. That's part of how
perception works.
--
Sincerely,
--- Dave
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It don't mean a thing
unless it has that certain "je ne sais quoi"
Duke Ellington
----------------------------------------------------------------------
John W. Kennedy
Simple. I had the other record.
---
John W. Kennedy
"The bright critics assembled in this volume will doubtless show, in
their sophisticated and ingenious new ways, that, just as /Pooh/ is
suffused with humanism, our humanism itself, at this late date, has
become full of /Pooh./"
-- Frederick Crews. "Postmodern Pooh", Preface
Kimba W. Lion
<jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>It was the early-60's Vanguard recording by the Vienna Philharmonic; the
>horn flub was patched before the tape was used to master the LP, of
>course, but you could tell the patch was there; the recording had
>acquired something of a reputation. Somehow Schickele got permission
>from Vanguard (I suppose it helped that they had his recording contract)
>to use the original master for "New Horizons".
Imagine my surprise. Listening to the PDQ Bach album, it seems VERY
apparent that the "flub" was spliced in. The stereo image changes
dramatically at that point.
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:110d0tb...@corp.supernews.com:
>> You'll have more luck if you luck under "Schickele." The New Horizons
>> cut is from his "PDQ Bach on the Air" album, reprised on "The Wurst
>> of PDQ Bach."
>
> There's a quad version of the LP in which the commentators sit LR and
> RR.
Another oddity about the SQ quadraphonic version of "Wurst" is a little bit
of dialogue in "Opera Whiz" that was cut from all other versions. In it,
Paul Henry Lung (Bill Macy) explains to Prof. Schickele what a taxi is.
(from memory)
Lung: Nah, I drive a taxi!
Prof: A taxi!?
Lung: You know, one of those yellow cars that go around....
John W. Kennedy
Maybe the flub was sweetened. But on the Beethoven disk, you can hear
something is not-quite-right about the note.
---
John W. Kennedy
"The pathetic hope that the White House will turn a Caligula into a
Marcus Aurelius is as naīve as the fear that ultimate power inevitably
corrupts."
-- James D. Barber (1930-2004).
b.a.
great painting, architecture, or whatever, can be examined or studied on
many different (infinite?) levels and appreciated in each one of those
ways or levels. Your appreciation will change over time, whether by
studying the score, Beethoven't sketches of the fifth, or just by your
own life experiences over time. But a great work of art will remain a
great work of art, whatever your experiences and however you consider
it. . .or whether you even like it personally.
Several posters feel that it is necessary to get to know and appreciate
the Pastoral (sixth) Symphony to appreciate the fifth. Well, I say not
necessarily so. Over time you may get to know the sixth, and it may
alter your view or context of the fifth for you, but it may not.
Anyway, examine it in any way you want, by hearing other Beethoven
symphonies, by listening to 50 performances of the fifth, or by
listening to it heavily hungover in the morning following an all night
drinking binge. You'll learn something new each time because your own
context changes.
Cheers. . .Bill Atkerson
Peter H.M. Brooks wrote:
> I'm working on a little personal project. I'd like to get a better
> understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
>
> I have the score, the music in MIDI and a couple of recordings that I'm
> very fond of. I also have some books on composition and I've read some
> biography of Beethoven.
>
> What I'd like to do is get to understand the work itself in a lot more
> depth. I understand the form of the symphony itself and a little of the
> history of the form and some of the influences working on Beethoven at
> the time.
>
> I'm still just at the very start, I know. Are there any good books or
> URLs that you can recommend?
>
> This may seem a silly question, but I'll ask it anyway. What is the best
> way to come to a musical understanding of a work of this magnitude, both
> musically and historically - given that it is probably my favourite work
> of classical music already?
>
> I'll accept the answer of 'don't bother - if you have to ask you can't
> know' as read. I'm looking for suggestions, even simplistic ones, that
> can help me gain an understanding.
>
> Incidentally, I'm interested in any different, odd, or unusual
> arrangements or orchestrations (even dreadfully bad ones) as well as
> more straight forward approaches.
>
> You can also tell me that this is a silly thing to try to do - maybe,
> aesthetically, the music is, itself, the whole of it. But, if you do
> think this, I'd like to know why.
>
> --
> Now the chapter I was obliged to tear out, was the description of this
> cavalcade, in which Corporal Trim and Obadiah, upon two coach-horses
> a-breast, led the way as slow as a patrole--whilst my uncle Toby, in his
> laced regimentals and tye-wig, kept his rank with my father, in deep
> roads and dissertations alternately upon the advantage of learning and
> arms, as each could get the start.- Tristam Shandy Chapter 2.LX Laurence
> Sterne
John C. Polasek
wrote:
>"Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote:
>>
>> Uncle Al wrote:
>> > "Peter H.M. Brooks" wrote:
>> >
>> >>I'm working on a little personal project. I'd like to get a better
>> >>understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
>> >
>> > [snip]
SNIP
If you, sir, upon hearing a definitive reading of Beethoven's 5th
Symphony, do not break down into loud, uncontrollable sobs at the
magnificence of his genius, then perhaps you may be ready to do the
same for the sunshine-laden phase of the fourth movement of Brahm's
1st Symphony, but, OK, lacking that, you are apparently ready for the
study phase.
But study first how to be over-whelmed. It's essential. Of course, you
can't get "a better understanding of Beethoven's 5th Symphony" by
studying Beethoven's 5th Symphony. Study all you want, but if you
haven't gone through the grateful sobbing phase, it's all academic,
but you'll still probably get a good grade.
Mr. Dual Space
If you have something to say, write an equation.
If you have nothing to say, write an essay
Michael
> My 2 cents worth: A great work of art, whether Beethoven's fifth, a
> great painting, architecture, or whatever, can be examined or studied
on
> many different (infinite?) levels and appreciated in each one of
those
> ways or levels. Your appreciation will change over time, whether by
> studying the score, Beethoven't sketches of the fifth, or just by
your
> own life experiences over time. But a great work of art will remain a
> great work of art, whatever your experiences and however you consider
> it. . .or whether you even like it personally.
>
> Several posters feel that it is necessary to get to know and
appreciate
> the Pastoral (sixth) Symphony to appreciate the fifth. Well, I say
not
> necessarily so. Over time you may get to know the sixth, and it may
> alter your view or context of the fifth for you, but it may not.
True. It may or may not alter your view of the 5th. But what will
definitely change and enhance your perception of the 5th is listening
to some of the music that Beethoven was directly inspired by, namely
music by French composers of the revolutionary and post-revolutionary
period. Méhule uses a motif very similar to Beethoven first movement
in the finale of his 2nd symphony. A lot of music by Cherubini may have
inspired Beethoven. In one of his works, I can't remember right now if
it was the Requiem or Te Deum, you can find the same motif almost note
by note.
In any case, it is obvious that the music of the French revolution left
a deep imüpression on Beethoven.
Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:1108433338....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> True. It may or may not alter your view of the 5th. But what will
> definitely change and enhance your perception of the 5th is listening to
> some of the music that Beethoven was directly inspired by, namely music
> by French composers of the revolutionary and post-revolutionary period.
> Méhule uses a motif very similar to Beethoven first movement in the
> finale of his 2nd symphony. A lot of music by Cherubini may have inspired
> Beethoven. In one of his works, I can't remember right now if it was the
> Requiem or Te Deum, you can find the same motif almost note by note.
Cherubini wrote two Requiems. I am not aware of a Te Deum by him; cite?
> In any case, it is obvious that the music of the French revolution left
> a deep imüpression on Beethoven.
--
Michael
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> "Michael" <msch...@gmx.net> appears to have caused the following
letters
> to be typed in
news:1108433338....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
> > True. It may or may not alter your view of the 5th. But what will
> > definitely change and enhance your perception of the 5th is
listening to
> > some of the music that Beethoven was directly inspired by, namely
music
> > by French composers of the revolutionary and post-revolutionary
period.
> > Méhule uses a motif very similar to Beethoven first movement in
the
> > finale of his 2nd symphony. A lot of music by Cherubini may have
inspired
> > Beethoven. In one of his works, I can't remember right now if it
was the
> > Requiem or Te Deum, you can find the same motif almost note by
note.
>
> Cherubini wrote two Requiems. I am not aware of a Te Deum by him;
cite?
Cite? I said I don't remember the exact title or piece. Can you point
us to where the dadadada is, please?
Matthew B. Tepper
> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>> "Michael" <msch...@gmx.net> appears to have caused the following
>> letters to be typed in
>> news:1108433338....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > True. It may or may not alter your view of the 5th. But what will
>> > definitely change and enhance your perception of the 5th is listening
>> > to some of the music that Beethoven was directly inspired by, namely
>> > music by French composers of the revolutionary and post-revolutionary
>> > period. Méhule uses a motif very similar to Beethoven first movement
>> > in the finale of his 2nd symphony. A lot of music by Cherubini may
>> > have inspired Beethoven. In one of his works, I can't remember right
>> > now if it was the Requiem or Te Deum, you can find the same motif
>> > almost note by note.
>>
>> Cherubini wrote two Requiems. I am not aware of a Te Deum by him;
>> cite?
>
> Cite? I said I don't remember the exact title or piece. Can you point
> us to where the dadadada is, please?
I'll say it more directly. I'm not aware that a setting of the Te Deum by
Cherubini even exists.
>> > In any case, it is obvious that the music of the French revolution
>> > left a deep impression on Beethoven.
Michael
What's your point? I said that I am not sure about the title of the
work. I played it once, a long time ago, and the title eludes me, but I
do remember it was a religious work with choir. It is strikingly
obvious that this must have been a source of inspiration for LvB (and
indeed that was what our music history teacher confirmed years later
when I was at the academy).
So, do you have anything of substance to contribute to this or do you
want to keep repeating what I myself said several times now - that I
don't remember the title of the work precisely?
Matthew B. Tepper
My point is that if you don't remember what the piece is, perhaps somebody
else here does?
mista...@yahoo.com
interesting sources, I will add my two cents: You may wish to read
Schuller's 'The Compleat Conductor' and Del Mar's 'Conducting
Beethoven: The Symphonies'. Schuller's book, in particular, includes a
very detailed anaylsis of various conductor's approaches to the 5th.
Robert Briggs
Michael wrote:
> b.a. wrote:
> > Several posters feel that it is necessary to get to know and
> > appreciate the Pastoral (sixth) Symphony to appreciate the fifth.
> > Well, I say not necessarily so. Over time you may get to know the
> > sixth, and it may alter your view or context of the fifth for you,
> > but it may not.
>
> True. It may or may not alter your view of the 5th. But what will
> definitely change and enhance your perception of the 5th is listening
> to some of the music that Beethoven was directly inspired by, namely
> music by French composers of the revolutionary and post-revolutionary
> period.
You can also go the other way and note how the Fifth has inspired later
composers.
For instance, Beethoven's opening rhythmic motif appears in Brahms'
First. Mostly, Brahms quotes just the rhythm, but occasionally he also
matches the interval.
And, before his First is out, Brahms alludes quite obviously to
Beethoven's Ninth. Is it any great surprise that (pace Dr. Barry
Cooper) Brahms' First is sometimes called "Beethoven's Tenth"?
Michael
Robert Briggs wrote:
> [NGs pruned]
>
> Michael wrote:
> > b.a. wrote:
>
> > > Several posters feel that it is necessary to get to know and
> > > appreciate the Pastoral (sixth) Symphony to appreciate the fifth.
> > > Well, I say not necessarily so. Over time you may get to know the
> > > sixth, and it may alter your view or context of the fifth for
you,
> > > but it may not.
> >
> > True. It may or may not alter your view of the 5th. But what will
> > definitely change and enhance your perception of the 5th is
listening
> > to some of the music that Beethoven was directly inspired by,
namely
> > music by French composers of the revolutionary and
post-revolutionary
> > period.
>
> You can also go the other way and note how the Fifth has inspired
later
> composers.
>
> For instance, Beethoven's opening rhythmic motif appears in Brahms'
> First.
Not really. Beethoven's motif is a three 8th note upbeat in a 2/4 time.
Brahms' is a 3 8th note motif in 6/8. The positioning of the rhythm in
the music is very different from LvB.
Michael
That wasn't yor point. You just wanted to wise-ass "oh, but there is
not Te Deum by Cherubini". But I had said all the time that I don't
remember the title. Apparently you don't know what I mean either, so
that doesn't get us any further.