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Bernstein on Bruckner #8 - "too long, too many false climaxes"
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Nigel Curtis
Dec 9, 2011, 10:00:43 AM12/9/11
to
Tucked away in the recent discussion on Brucker #6, was the following
story about Bernstein in Japan playing the entire Bruckner #8 on the
piano from memory.
Ignoring the 'modern myth' aspect of whether this feat happened
exactly as described (I guess it's more likely he played good-sized
excerpts) what do people think about this criticism of the piece
itself?
It's the first time I've heard this 'too many false climaxes' levelled
against it.
> Bernstein only performed one Bruckner symphony in his career - the
>Ninth, though he performed that frequently, and recorded it twice (once
>with New York and once, later, with Vienna Phil). He did not care for the
>other Bruckner symphonies. I had the privilege of working with Bernstein
>over a period of about ten years, and touring with him and the New York
>Philharmonic in Japan in 1979. One night after a concert, and after he
>had signed autographs, I asked him why he didn't do other Bruckner besides
>the Ninth - particularly the Eighth, which I thought would be magnificent
>in his hands. He made a face and told me that it was a terrible piece --
>too long, too many "false climaxes", etc. I argued with him, and he
>proceeded to drag me over to a piano (this was about 11:00PM or so), and
>play through the entire symphony (though he didn't take the Scherzo
>repeat), commenting along the way on what he found wrong with it. What I
>find most remarkable about this, if you think about it, is that he didn't
>like this piece, never conducted it, yet knew it well enough to pull it
>out of his head and play through all of it at the piano, not having been
>prepared to do so at all! He was one of a kind.
Roland van Gaalen
Dec 9, 2011, 10:13:29 AM12/9/11
to
Otto Klemperer in his program notes (New Philharmonia Orchestra, concert of 17 Nov. 1970):
"In the last movement of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony I have made cuts. In this instance it seems to me that the composer was so full of musical invention that he went too far. Brucknerians will object, and it is certainly not my intention that these cuts should be considered as a model for others. I can only take the responsibility for my own interpretation."
Source: Klemperer on Music, Toccata Press, London, 1986, p. 121
"In the last movement of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony I have made cuts. In this instance it seems to me that the composer was so full of musical invention that he went too far. Brucknerians will object, and it is certainly not my intention that these cuts should be considered as a model for others. I can only take the responsibility for my own interpretation."
Source: Klemperer on Music, Toccata Press, London, 1986, p. 121
Mark S
Dec 9, 2011, 10:26:35 AM12/9/11
to
On Dec 9, 7:13 am, Roland van Gaalen <rolandvangaa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
length of the piece. I don't even know what Lenny is talking about
with his false climax charge, though I could see how Lenny's way of
music making in general could lead to a performance that gave off that
impression.
wrote:
> Otto Klemperer in his program notes (New Philharmonia Orchestra, concert of 17 Nov. 1970):
>
> "In the last movement of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony I have made cuts. In this instance it seems to me that the composer was so full of musical invention that he went too far. Brucknerians will object, and it is certainly not my intention that these cuts should be considered as a model for others. I can only take the responsibility for my own interpretation."
>
> Source: Klemperer on Music, Toccata Press, London, 1986, p. 121
IMHO, both Bernstein and Klemps were wrong. Nothing wrong with the
>
> "In the last movement of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony I have made cuts. In this instance it seems to me that the composer was so full of musical invention that he went too far. Brucknerians will object, and it is certainly not my intention that these cuts should be considered as a model for others. I can only take the responsibility for my own interpretation."
>
> Source: Klemperer on Music, Toccata Press, London, 1986, p. 121
length of the piece. I don't even know what Lenny is talking about
with his false climax charge, though I could see how Lenny's way of
music making in general could lead to a performance that gave off that
impression.
MSW
Dec 9, 2011, 10:32:45 AM12/9/11
to
On Dec 9, 9:27 am, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> Yes, and opposed to say, Mahler, who revels in his false climaxes.
> Mahler even has restarts in the middle of movements. Yet, we all know
> how much Lenny liked Gustav.
> -Owen
Yes, but those are intentionally false rather than innocently so, and
therefore acceptable. :)
> Yes, and opposed to say, Mahler, who revels in his false climaxes.
> Mahler even has restarts in the middle of movements. Yet, we all know
> how much Lenny liked Gustav.
> -Owen
Yes, but those are intentionally false rather than innocently so, and
therefore acceptable. :)
Paul Goldstein
Dec 9, 2011, 10:41:03 AM12/9/11
to
In article <a39330c4-96c8-4bee...@q11g2000vbq.googlegroups.com>,
Nigel Curtis says...
especially
the finale, for the reasons given. And I am not an anti-Brucknerite. I hold
the
7th and 9th Symphonies in the highest regard.
Nigel Curtis says...
>
>
>Tucked away in the recent discussion on Brucker #6, was the following
>story about Bernstein in Japan playing the entire Bruckner #8 on the
>piano from memory.
>
>Ignoring the 'modern myth' aspect of whether this feat happened
>exactly as described (I guess it's more likely he played good-sized
>excerpts) what do people think about this criticism of the piece
>itself?
>
>It's the first time I've heard this 'too many false climaxes' levelled
>against it.
I completely agree with Bernstein. The piece just doesn't work for me,
>
>Tucked away in the recent discussion on Brucker #6, was the following
>story about Bernstein in Japan playing the entire Bruckner #8 on the
>piano from memory.
>
>Ignoring the 'modern myth' aspect of whether this feat happened
>exactly as described (I guess it's more likely he played good-sized
>excerpts) what do people think about this criticism of the piece
>itself?
>
>It's the first time I've heard this 'too many false climaxes' levelled
>against it.
especially
the finale, for the reasons given. And I am not an anti-Brucknerite. I hold
the
7th and 9th Symphonies in the highest regard.
O
Dec 9, 2011, 10:53:42 AM12/9/11
to
In article
<88669788-99bd-46ea...@v29g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>,
Often I find myself thinking "wasn't this movement just done a couple
of minutes ago?"
-Owen, who wouldn't be where he is if he didn't find himself.
<88669788-99bd-46ea...@v29g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>,
of minutes ago?"
-Owen, who wouldn't be where he is if he didn't find himself.
Mark S
Dec 9, 2011, 10:56:05 AM12/9/11
to
On Dec 9, 7:41 am, Paul Goldstein <pgold...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> In article <a39330c4-96c8-4bee-822d-86ed58f0c...@q11g2000vbq.googlegroups.com>,
Lenny and Karl attend a Bruckner 8 in Vienna conducted by Herbert.
Afterward, Karl asks Lenny what he thought about the performance. "Too
many false climaxes and too long," says Lenny. "Ah, I see," replies
Karl. "But you must understand - here in Vienna, we LOVE music."
> In article <a39330c4-96c8-4bee-822d-86ed58f0c...@q11g2000vbq.googlegroups.com>,
Afterward, Karl asks Lenny what he thought about the performance. "Too
many false climaxes and too long," says Lenny. "Ah, I see," replies
Karl. "But you must understand - here in Vienna, we LOVE music."
M forever
Dec 9, 2011, 11:36:53 AM12/9/11
to
recreate the kind of terraced dynamic landscape that Bruckner lays out
in the score. He would have gone for big, "real" climaxes all the
time, especially at that time in his career. He wouldn't have had the
long-term dynamic control necessary for that. You can actually hear
that in his pretty odd recording of the 9th with the NYP (literally
the worst I ever heard).
Mark S
Dec 9, 2011, 12:18:13 PM12/9/11
to
happens to occur in the Third movement. I guess in Lenny's eyes that
means that the 24-minute Finale is just a toss-off, because THE
musical climax hasn't been saved for the final bar of the symphony.
Gerard
Dec 9, 2011, 12:21:27 PM12/9/11
to
More interesting would be to know why Bernstein did not like the piece.
herman
Dec 9, 2011, 12:48:24 PM12/9/11
to
On 9 déc, 18:21, "Gerard" <ghendrikse-nospa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's all guessing.
> More interesting would be to know why Bernstein did not like the piece.
But not really all that interesting.
>
> It's all guessing.
> More interesting would be to know why Bernstein did not like the piece.
peter gutmann
Dec 9, 2011, 2:33:17 PM12/9/11
to
> > Bernstein only performed one Bruckner symphony in his career - the
> >Ninth, though he performed that frequently, and recorded it twice (once
> >with New York and once, later, with Vienna Phil). He did not care for the
> >other Bruckner symphonies.
I realize you're just quoting another article, but ... Not quite true
> >Ninth, though he performed that frequently, and recorded it twice (once
> >with New York and once, later, with Vienna Phil). He did not care for the
> >other Bruckner symphonies.
-- the NYP Bernstein Live box has his complete 1976 NYP concert
performance of the Bruckner Sixth. I haven't heard it in a while, but
my reaction at the time was that it was light and crisp, with a
Viennese sense of grace, which seemed all the more remarkable in light
of his creative dry spell and personal depression at the time (and the
resultant slow phase of his conducting that was beginning).
Dontait...@aol.com
Dec 9, 2011, 4:08:34 PM12/9/11
to
8th Symphony. Whether the Haas or Nowak versions. So Henry said that
when he was the Manager of the New York Philharmonic and was with
Bernstein, he brought up Bruckner 8. He said Bernstein immediately
went to a piano wherever they were and began to play things from the
symphony, accompanied by his comments about how bad he thought they
were. He had it all in his mind.
I think Bernstein also conducted Bruckner's Symphony no. 6. I seem
to remember having a tape of him doing it with the Philharmonic. Or am
I wrong?
Bernstein's musical mind and recall was evidently indeed prodigious.
Completely extraordinary. I'm sorry for being unable to remember the
source of this story, but from what I have read it's legitimate.
Perhaps at Tanglewood, Bernstein at the piano began to play excerpts
from contemporary works by American composers and talk about them.
Aaron Copland was there. Someone said to Copland "how does he find the
time to learn these things?" To which Copland supposedly replied "are
you kidding? Most of the things he's only seen once. The thing by Bill
Schuman's never been published."
Don Tait
Message has been deleted
Matthew B. Tepper
Dec 10, 2011, 12:50:15 PM12/10/11
to
Terry <bo...@clown.invalid> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in news:0001HW.CB09991C...@news.tpg.com.au:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 02:26:35 +1100, Mark S wrote
> (in article
><ebc57f22-4c88-4b5d...@p14g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>):
> Klemps' comments were not focused on the length of the piece. Read what
> he wrote!
Too many intentions, my dear Bruckner?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
be typed in news:0001HW.CB09991C...@news.tpg.com.au:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 02:26:35 +1100, Mark S wrote
> (in article
><ebc57f22-4c88-4b5d...@p14g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>):
> he wrote!
Too many intentions, my dear Bruckner?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Roland van Gaalen
Dec 10, 2011, 1:21:44 PM12/10/11
to
On Saturday, December 10, 2011 6:50:15 PM UTC+1, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Terry <bo...@clown.invalid> appears to have caused the following letters to
> be typed in news:0001HW.CB0999...@news.tpg.com.au:
> Terry <bo...@clown.invalid> appears to have caused the following letters to
>
> > On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 02:26:35 +1100, Mark S wrote
> > (in article
> ><ebc57f22-4c88-4b5d...@p14g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>):
> >
> >> On Dec 9, 7:13 am, Roland van Gaalen <rolandv...@gmail.com>
> > On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 02:26:35 +1100, Mark S wrote
> > (in article
> ><ebc57f22-4c88-4b5d...@p14g2000yqp.googlegroups.com>):
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>> Otto Klemperer in his program notes (New Philharmonia Orchestra,
> >>> concert of 17 Nov. 1970):
> >>>
> >>> "In the last movement of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony I have made cuts.
> >>> In this instance it seems to me that the composer was so full of
> >>> musical invention that he went too far. Brucknerians will object, and
> >>> it is certainly not my intention that these cuts should be considered
> >>> as a model for others. I can only take the responsibility for my own
> >>> interpretation."
> >>>
> >>> Source: Klemperer on Music, Toccata Press, London, 1986, p. 121
> >>
> >> IMHO, both Bernstein and Klemps were wrong. Nothing wrong with the
> >> length of the piece. I don't even know what Lenny is talking about
> >> with his false climax charge, though I could see how Lenny's way of
> >> music making in general could lead to a performance that gave off that
> >> impression.
> >
> > Klemps' comments were not focused on the length of the piece. Read what
> > he wrote!
>
> Too many intentions, my dear Bruckner?
Would it be arrogant to suggest the possibility that those great conductors had their blind spots, too, and were unable to comprehend and realize Bruckner's vision?
> >>> Otto Klemperer in his program notes (New Philharmonia Orchestra,
> >>> concert of 17 Nov. 1970):
> >>>
> >>> "In the last movement of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony I have made cuts.
> >>> In this instance it seems to me that the composer was so full of
> >>> musical invention that he went too far. Brucknerians will object, and
> >>> it is certainly not my intention that these cuts should be considered
> >>> as a model for others. I can only take the responsibility for my own
> >>> interpretation."
> >>>
> >>> Source: Klemperer on Music, Toccata Press, London, 1986, p. 121
> >>
> >> IMHO, both Bernstein and Klemps were wrong. Nothing wrong with the
> >> length of the piece. I don't even know what Lenny is talking about
> >> with his false climax charge, though I could see how Lenny's way of
> >> music making in general could lead to a performance that gave off that
> >> impression.
> >
> > Klemps' comments were not focused on the length of the piece. Read what
> > he wrote!
>
> Too many intentions, my dear Bruckner?
I remember reading somewhere that Furtwangler felt he was not ready for Beethoven's Missa Sollemnis.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl
herman
Dec 10, 2011, 1:49:57 PM12/10/11
to
On 10 déc, 19:21, Roland van Gaalen <rolandvangaa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Would it be arrogant to suggest the possibility that those great conductors had their blind spots, too, and were unable to comprehend and realize Bruckner's vision?
>
> I remember reading somewhere that Furtwangler felt he was not ready for Beethoven's Missa Sollemnis.
> --
Well, hello! Furtwangler's admission is the total opposite of what
>
> Would it be arrogant to suggest the possibility that those great conductors had their blind spots, too, and were unable to comprehend and realize Bruckner's vision?
>
> I remember reading somewhere that Furtwangler felt he was not ready for Beethoven's Missa Sollemnis.
> --
Bernstein allegedly did.
Bernstein didn't say he wasn't ready for Bruckner. He said Bruckner
wasn't good enough for him, with his false climaxes.
Roland van Gaalen
Dec 10, 2011, 4:04:09 PM12/10/11
to
On Saturday, December 10, 2011 7:49:57 PM UTC+1, herman wrote:
> Furtwangler's admission is the total opposite of what
> Bernstein allegedly did.
>
> Bernstein didn't say he wasn't ready for Bruckner. He said Bruckner
> wasn't good enough for him, with his false climaxes.
Clearly, the analogy (if there is one) is imperfect but thank you for being so perceptive (and gracious) as to point out the obvious anyway.
I meant to suggest the possibility that it cannot be ruled out categorically that Bernstein couldn't see the forest through the trees with respect to Bruckner's 8th symphony and in that sense wasn't ready for that piece of music.
That Furtwangler (another great conductor) apparently did not fully comprehend the Missa Sollemnis (a piece by another great composer) would appear to be consistent this suggestion.
Saying that Bruckner's music isn't good enough for you doesn't prove that it isn't, does it?
> On 10 déc, 19:21, Roland van Gaalen <rolandv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Would it be arrogant to suggest the possibility that those great conductors had their blind spots, too, and were unable to comprehend and realize Bruckner's vision?
> >
> > I remember reading somewhere that Furtwangler felt he was not ready for Beethoven's Missa Sollemnis.
> > --
>
> Well, hello!
?
>
>
> >
> > Would it be arrogant to suggest the possibility that those great conductors had their blind spots, too, and were unable to comprehend and realize Bruckner's vision?
> >
> > I remember reading somewhere that Furtwangler felt he was not ready for Beethoven's Missa Sollemnis.
> > --
>
> Well, hello!
> Furtwangler's admission is the total opposite of what
> Bernstein allegedly did.
>
> Bernstein didn't say he wasn't ready for Bruckner. He said Bruckner
> wasn't good enough for him, with his false climaxes.
I meant to suggest the possibility that it cannot be ruled out categorically that Bernstein couldn't see the forest through the trees with respect to Bruckner's 8th symphony and in that sense wasn't ready for that piece of music.
That Furtwangler (another great conductor) apparently did not fully comprehend the Missa Sollemnis (a piece by another great composer) would appear to be consistent this suggestion.
Saying that Bruckner's music isn't good enough for you doesn't prove that it isn't, does it?
td
Dec 10, 2011, 4:17:33 PM12/10/11
to
TD
Dontait...@aol.com
Dec 10, 2011, 5:16:01 PM12/10/11
to
On Dec 10, 12:21 pm, Roland van Gaalen <rolandvangaa...@gmail.com>
wrote:
[snip]
> I remember reading somewhere that Furtwangler felt he was not ready for Beethoven's Missa Sollemnis.
> --
> Roland van Gaalen
> Amsterdam
> r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl
I seem to remember having read that somewhere, too. But according to
"The Furtwangler Sound Third Edition," Furtwangler conducted
Beethoven's Missa Solemnis on June 2 1930 in Berlin with the BPO, the
Bruno Kittel Choir, and soloists Peltenburg, Rosette Anday, Karl Erb,
and Drissen (sorry, I don't have the first names for two). He did it
then, at least.
Don Tait
wrote:
[snip]
> I remember reading somewhere that Furtwangler felt he was not ready for Beethoven's Missa Sollemnis.
> --
> Roland van Gaalen
> Amsterdam
> r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl
"The Furtwangler Sound Third Edition," Furtwangler conducted
Beethoven's Missa Solemnis on June 2 1930 in Berlin with the BPO, the
Bruno Kittel Choir, and soloists Peltenburg, Rosette Anday, Karl Erb,
and Drissen (sorry, I don't have the first names for two). He did it
then, at least.
Don Tait
Kimba W Lion
Dec 10, 2011, 9:38:26 PM12/10/11
to
Roland van Gaalen <rolandv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Would it be arrogant to suggest the possibility that those great conductors
> had their blind spots, too, and were unable to comprehend and realize
> Bruckner's vision?
Aren't great conductors allowed to have their likes and dislikes?
>Would it be arrogant to suggest the possibility that those great conductors
> had their blind spots, too, and were unable to comprehend and realize
> Bruckner's vision?
IMO, having nothing to say never stopped Bruckner from saying it anyway.
M forever
Dec 10, 2011, 9:51:34 PM12/10/11
to
On Dec 10, 9:38 pm, Kimba W Lion
<norepliesbyem...@norepliesbyemail.invalid> wrote:
Neither you, as we can see...
<norepliesbyem...@norepliesbyemail.invalid> wrote:
Kip Williams
Dec 10, 2011, 11:22:55 PM12/10/11
to
Kimba W Lion wrote:
> Roland van Gaalen<rolandv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Would it be arrogant to suggest the possibility that those great conductors
>> had their blind spots, too, and were unable to comprehend and realize
>> Bruckner's vision?
>
> Aren't great conductors allowed to have their likes and dislikes?
Everybody's supposed to be allowed to have their likes and dislikes,
> Roland van Gaalen<rolandv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Would it be arrogant to suggest the possibility that those great conductors
>> had their blind spots, too, and were unable to comprehend and realize
>> Bruckner's vision?
>
> Aren't great conductors allowed to have their likes and dislikes?
including conductors.
Kip W
herman
Dec 11, 2011, 2:47:48 AM12/11/11
to
> > Roland van Gaalen<rolandvangaa...@gmail.com> wrote:
'It's no good; look at all those false climaxes!'
>
> >> Would it be arrogant to suggest the possibility that those great conductors
> >> had their blind spots, too, and were unable to comprehend and realize
> >> Bruckner's vision?
>
> > Aren't great conductors allowed to have their likes and dislikes?
>
> Everybody's supposed to be allowed to have their likes and dislikes,
> including conductors.
>
> Kip W
There's a difference between saying 'I don't like Bruckner 8' and
> >> Would it be arrogant to suggest the possibility that those great conductors
> >> had their blind spots, too, and were unable to comprehend and realize
> >> Bruckner's vision?
>
> > Aren't great conductors allowed to have their likes and dislikes?
>
> Everybody's supposed to be allowed to have their likes and dislikes,
> including conductors.
>
> Kip W
'It's no good; look at all those false climaxes!'
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Roland van Gaalen
Dec 11, 2011, 10:49:35 AM12/11/11
to
On Sunday, December 11, 2011 3:31:16 PM UTC+1, Terry wrote:
> Although Beecham put it more colourfully than Bernstein. At the risk of
> misquoting him: "In the first movement alone I counted four pregnancies and
> three miscarriages."
Ironically, isn't the apparent defect of "failed climaxes" (as Bernstein is supposed to have put it) a fairly common (and quite understandable) complaint coming from those who are hearing Bruckner's music for the first time?
I discovered Bruckner's symphonies at the advanced age of 30 (or so), when I bought my first classical CD: the fourth symphony, performed by the Concertgebouw Orchestra led by its new conductor Riccardo Chailly.
The performance sounded quite bright and impressive, especially the brass, and yet it left me lukewarm at best because of its disruptive stop-and-go aspect (as I perceived it).
Then a heard a weird, otherwordly piece of music on the radio.
I was spellbound!
To find out exactly what it was (I must have this!!!), I called the radio station.
They told me it was the adagio of No. 9 conducted by Furtwangler during the war.
I have been hooked ever since.
> Although Beecham put it more colourfully than Bernstein. At the risk of
> misquoting him: "In the first movement alone I counted four pregnancies and
> three miscarriages."
Ironically, isn't the apparent defect of "failed climaxes" (as Bernstein is supposed to have put it) a fairly common (and quite understandable) complaint coming from those who are hearing Bruckner's music for the first time?
I discovered Bruckner's symphonies at the advanced age of 30 (or so), when I bought my first classical CD: the fourth symphony, performed by the Concertgebouw Orchestra led by its new conductor Riccardo Chailly.
The performance sounded quite bright and impressive, especially the brass, and yet it left me lukewarm at best because of its disruptive stop-and-go aspect (as I perceived it).
Then a heard a weird, otherwordly piece of music on the radio.
I was spellbound!
To find out exactly what it was (I must have this!!!), I called the radio station.
They told me it was the adagio of No. 9 conducted by Furtwangler during the war.
I have been hooked ever since.
Kimba W Lion
Dec 11, 2011, 12:05:07 PM12/11/11
to
herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>There's a difference between saying 'I don't like Bruckner 8' and
>'It's no good; look at all those false climaxes!'
The only problem is that you're not willing to acknowledge that in the second
>There's a difference between saying 'I don't like Bruckner 8' and
>'It's no good; look at all those false climaxes!'
case the words "in my opinion" are implicit, not explicit.
There are no absolutes in music. I generally like Bernstein's performances and
I agree with his opinion of Bruckner's music. That doesn't have any impact on
Bruckner's music itself or anyone else's opinion.
td
Dec 11, 2011, 12:08:50 PM12/11/11
to
On Dec 11, 9:31 am, Terry <b...@clown.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:04:09 +1100, Roland van Gaalen wrote
> (in article
> <11125881.1179.1323551049089.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbnd7>):
And true.
TD
> On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:04:09 +1100, Roland van Gaalen wrote
> (in article
> <11125881.1179.1323551049089.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbnd7>):
> Although Beecham put it more colourfully than Bernstein. At the risk of
> misquoting him: "In the first movement alone I counted four pregnancies and
> three miscarriages."
Lovely.
> misquoting him: "In the first movement alone I counted four pregnancies and
> three miscarriages."
And true.
TD
td
Dec 11, 2011, 12:08:06 PM12/11/11
to
the music is "no good". He summed up his objections - and many agree
with him - so there is no need to disregard his opinions just because
they don't reflect the opinions of others who like Bruckner.
It might also be nice to hear WHY someone actually thinks Bruckner's
music is "any good". A justification for "all those false climaxes"?
Or a refutation?
TD
Gerard
Dec 11, 2011, 12:40:59 PM12/11/11
to
graham
Dec 11, 2011, 12:45:43 PM12/11/11
to
"td" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:09f3f9f0-8175-49d0...@h18g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
And yet he seemed to like false climaxes in Mahler.
GD
Mark S
Dec 11, 2011, 12:49:27 PM12/11/11
to
On Dec 11, 9:08 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> > There's a difference between saying 'I don't like Bruckner 8' and
> > 'It's no good; look at all those false climaxes!'
>
> Bernstein would, no doubt, have been happy to show you in detail why
> the music is "no good". He summed up his objections - and many agree
> with him - so there is no need to disregard his opinions just because
> they don't reflect the opinions of others who like Bruckner.
>
> It might also be nice to hear WHY someone actually thinks Bruckner's
> music is "any good". A justification for "all those false climaxes"?
> Or a refutation?
>
During a discussion of opera singers, a friend of mine remarked that
> > There's a difference between saying 'I don't like Bruckner 8' and
> > 'It's no good; look at all those false climaxes!'
>
> Bernstein would, no doubt, have been happy to show you in detail why
> the music is "no good". He summed up his objections - and many agree
> with him - so there is no need to disregard his opinions just because
> they don't reflect the opinions of others who like Bruckner.
>
> It might also be nice to hear WHY someone actually thinks Bruckner's
> music is "any good". A justification for "all those false climaxes"?
> Or a refutation?
>
it's easy to find fault with singers one dislikes. I'd expand on that
thought to say that we often let slide identical faults in singers we
like. The preceding can be applied to life in general.
As far as Bernstein's comments about Bruckner, the one thing we can be
absolutely sure of is that his opinions were not arrived at in a
cavalier fashion. They are the result of his having an intimate
knowledge of the music, and that knowledge needs to be respected. It
reminds me of being similar to the situation where the religious types
show up at your front door, champing at the bit to tell you the good
news about Jesus - of whom they assume you have never heard - and who
are then puzzled when you tell them that your rejection of their
religious beliefs is based not on ignorance, but on your own deep
knowledge of what sits behind their beliefs.
The fact is that some people's minds just aren't constructed in a way
that allows them to entertain treating religious fantasy as if it were
reality. In the case of a musician of Bernstein's stature finding
Bruckner wanting, one can safely assume that it's a combination of
what one might call his innate musical preferences and his studied
musical experiences. Sure, it boggles MY mind that Bernstein could
dismiss Bruckner while championing Copland, but there it is.
We all have blind spots when it comes to music, and I don't think it's
necessary to explain those blind spots. No one is ever going to
convince me that Don Giovanni is the greatest opera ever written. I
say that as one who has performed the opera on numerous occasions, who
has seen the piece often enough from a seat in the audience and who
owns my share of "great" recordings of the piece. Sorry, but I find it
a bore. It's a blind spot to me, and no amount of educated/reasoned/
passionate apologies for the piece are ever going to make me like the
damn thing. Appreciate it? Yes. Like it? Not so much.
CharlesSmith
Dec 11, 2011, 12:19:58 PM12/11/11
to
On Sunday, December 11, 2011 5:08:06 PM UTC, td wrote:
> On Dec 11, 2:47 am, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On 11 déc, 05:22, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Kimba W Lion wrote:
> > > > Roland van Gaalen<rolandv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 11, 2:47 am, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On 11 déc, 05:22, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Kimba W Lion wrote:
> >
> > > >> Would it be arrogant to suggest the possibility that those great conductors
> > > >> had their blind spots, too, and were unable to comprehend and realize
> > > >> Bruckner's vision?
> >
> > > > Aren't great conductors allowed to have their likes and dislikes?
> >
> > > Everybody's supposed to be allowed to have their likes and dislikes,
> > > including conductors.
> >
> > > Kip W
> >
> > There's a difference between saying 'I don't like Bruckner 8' and
> > 'It's no good; look at all those false climaxes!'
>
> Bernstein would, no doubt, have been happy to show you in detail why
> the music is "no good". He summed up his objections - and many agree
> with him - so there is no need to disregard his opinions just because
> they don't reflect the opinions of others who like Bruckner.
>
> It might also be nice to hear WHY someone actually thinks Bruckner's
> music is "any good". A justification for "all those false climaxes"?
> Or a refutation?
>
> TD
There's a lot of pleasure to be had from taking your time.
> > > >> Would it be arrogant to suggest the possibility that those great conductors
> > > >> had their blind spots, too, and were unable to comprehend and realize
> > > >> Bruckner's vision?
> >
> > > > Aren't great conductors allowed to have their likes and dislikes?
> >
> > > Everybody's supposed to be allowed to have their likes and dislikes,
> > > including conductors.
> >
> > > Kip W
> >
> > There's a difference between saying 'I don't like Bruckner 8' and
> > 'It's no good; look at all those false climaxes!'
>
> Bernstein would, no doubt, have been happy to show you in detail why
> the music is "no good". He summed up his objections - and many agree
> with him - so there is no need to disregard his opinions just because
> they don't reflect the opinions of others who like Bruckner.
>
> It might also be nice to hear WHY someone actually thinks Bruckner's
> music is "any good". A justification for "all those false climaxes"?
> Or a refutation?
>
> TD
herman
Dec 11, 2011, 1:16:00 PM12/11/11
to
On 11 déc, 18:45, "graham" <g.ste...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> -------------------
> And yet he seemed to like false climaxes in Mahler.
> GD
because they came faster.
> -------------------
> And yet he seemed to like false climaxes in Mahler.
> GD
Bruckner is perhaps not the best music to show (off) what a fabulously
sexy conductor you are.
It's rather embarrassing to think of Bernstein talking about
Bruckner's structural misconceptions, while he was aware Bruckner had
been surrounded by a bunch of buffoons who kept telling him he had to
cut this and that.
And of course it won't take long before Bernstein will join the choir
of composers whose music isn't performed any more.
William Sommerwerck
Dec 11, 2011, 1:55:54 PM12/11/11
to
> It might also be nice to hear WHY someone actually thinks Bruckner's
> music is "any good". A justification for "all those false climaxes"?
> Or a refutation?
Which, I suppose, brings us around to the question of what the difference
> music is "any good". A justification for "all those false climaxes"?
> Or a refutation?
among good, indifferent, and bad music is? One person in this group claims
that the distinction can be made simply by reading the score.
But that still doesn't define the criteria -- which have to be more than "I
like it" or "I don't like it". I have my own criteria, but it's difficult to
justify them in any rational fashion.
M forever
Dec 11, 2011, 2:12:11 PM12/11/11
to
On Dec 11, 12:05 pm, Kimba W Lion
<norepliesbyem...@norepliesbyemail.invalid> wrote:
> herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >There's a difference between saying 'I don't like Bruckner 8' and
> >'It's no good; look at all those false climaxes!'
>
> The only problem is that you're not willing to acknowledge that in the second
> case the words "in my opinion" are implicit, not explicit.
>
> There are no absolutes in music.
But Bernstein's is a pretty absolute statement, don't you think?
> herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >There's a difference between saying 'I don't like Bruckner 8' and
> >'It's no good; look at all those false climaxes!'
>
> The only problem is that you're not willing to acknowledge that in the second
> case the words "in my opinion" are implicit, not explicit.
>
> There are no absolutes in music.
M forever
Dec 11, 2011, 2:17:39 PM12/11/11
to
On Dec 11, 1:55 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> "td" <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote in message
However, reading music is such a basic skill in the huge skill set one
has to have in order to gain a good understanding of music that if
someone - like you - doesn't even have that basic skill, he can not
hope to be taken even remotely seriously. There is so much that can be
learned from reading scores and so much that you have no chance of
understanding if you can't, that it is safe to say that without that
basic skill, you have next to nothing of interest to say.
Your posts often illustrate that very, very nicely, and very
graphically.
I explained that many times before. That is actually not a very
difficult concept, but you keep misquoting me.
That makes you not just an ignorant, but a notorious liar as well.
> But that still doesn't define the criteria -- which have to be more than "I
> like it" or "I don't like it". I have my own criteria, but it's difficult to
> justify them in any rational fashion.
Yet that is what you do all the time, in grandiose pseudo-rational
fashion.
wrote:
> "td" <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote in message
>
> news:09f3f9f0-8175-49d0...@h18g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > It might also be nice to hear WHY someone actually thinks Bruckner's
> > music is "any good". A justification for "all those false climaxes"?
> > Or a refutation?
>
> Which, I suppose, brings us around to the question of what the difference
> among good, indifferent, and bad music is? One person in this group claims
> that the distinction can be made simply by reading the score.
Absolutely not. I never said anything like that at all.
> news:09f3f9f0-8175-49d0...@h18g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > It might also be nice to hear WHY someone actually thinks Bruckner's
> > music is "any good". A justification for "all those false climaxes"?
> > Or a refutation?
>
> Which, I suppose, brings us around to the question of what the difference
> among good, indifferent, and bad music is? One person in this group claims
> that the distinction can be made simply by reading the score.
However, reading music is such a basic skill in the huge skill set one
has to have in order to gain a good understanding of music that if
someone - like you - doesn't even have that basic skill, he can not
hope to be taken even remotely seriously. There is so much that can be
learned from reading scores and so much that you have no chance of
understanding if you can't, that it is safe to say that without that
basic skill, you have next to nothing of interest to say.
Your posts often illustrate that very, very nicely, and very
graphically.
I explained that many times before. That is actually not a very
difficult concept, but you keep misquoting me.
That makes you not just an ignorant, but a notorious liar as well.
> But that still doesn't define the criteria -- which have to be more than "I
> like it" or "I don't like it". I have my own criteria, but it's difficult to
> justify them in any rational fashion.
fashion.
Gerard
Dec 11, 2011, 2:18:10 PM12/11/11
to
William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "td" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:09f3f9f0-8175-49d0...@h18g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > It might also be nice to hear WHY someone actually thinks Bruckner's
> > music is "any good". A justification for "all those false climaxes"?
> > Or a refutation?
>
> Which, I suppose, brings us around to the question of what the
> difference among good, indifferent, and bad music is? One person in
> this group claims that the distinction can be made simply by reading
> the score.
>
But the guys who do simply so, don't agree about what they simply read.
> "td" <tomde...@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:09f3f9f0-8175-49d0...@h18g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > It might also be nice to hear WHY someone actually thinks Bruckner's
> > music is "any good". A justification for "all those false climaxes"?
> > Or a refutation?
>
> Which, I suppose, brings us around to the question of what the
> difference among good, indifferent, and bad music is? One person in
> this group claims that the distinction can be made simply by reading
> the score.
>
Gerard
Dec 11, 2011, 2:23:55 PM12/11/11
to
M forever wrote:
> On Dec 11, 1:55 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > "td" <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:09f3f9f0-8175-49d0...@h18g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > > It might also be nice to hear WHY someone actually thinks
> > > Bruckner's music is "any good". A justification for "all those
> > > false climaxes"? Or a refutation?
> >
> > Which, I suppose, brings us around to the question of what the
> > difference among good, indifferent, and bad music is? One person in
> > this group claims that the distinction can be made simply by
> > reading the score.
>
> Absolutely not. I never said anything like that at all.
>
> However, reading music is such a basic skill in the huge skill set one
> has to have in order to gain a good understanding of music that if
> someone - like you - doesn't even have that basic skill, he can not
> hope to be taken even remotely seriously. There is so much that can be
> learned from reading scores and so much that you have no chance of
> understanding if you can't, that it is safe to say that without that
> basic skill, you have next to nothing of interest to say.
See?
> On Dec 11, 1:55 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > "td" <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:09f3f9f0-8175-49d0...@h18g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > > It might also be nice to hear WHY someone actually thinks
> > > Bruckner's music is "any good". A justification for "all those
> > > false climaxes"? Or a refutation?
> >
> > Which, I suppose, brings us around to the question of what the
> > difference among good, indifferent, and bad music is? One person in
> > this group claims that the distinction can be made simply by
> > reading the score.
>
> Absolutely not. I never said anything like that at all.
>
> However, reading music is such a basic skill in the huge skill set one
> has to have in order to gain a good understanding of music that if
> someone - like you - doesn't even have that basic skill, he can not
> hope to be taken even remotely seriously. There is so much that can be
> learned from reading scores and so much that you have no chance of
> understanding if you can't, that it is safe to say that without that
> basic skill, you have next to nothing of interest to say.
He's in the wrong newsgroup after all.
>
> Your posts often illustrate that very, very nicely, and very
> graphically.
>
> I explained that many times before.
>
> That is actually not a very
> difficult concept, but you keep misquoting me.
>
> That makes you not just an ignorant, but a notorious liar as well.
>
> > But that still doesn't define the criteria -- which have to be more
> > than "I like it" or "I don't like it". I have my own criteria, but
> > it's difficult to justify them in any rational fashion.
>
> Yet that is what you do all the time, in grandiose pseudo-rational
> fashion.
M forever
Dec 11, 2011, 2:30:17 PM12/11/11
to
analyses of Bruckner's music, and beyond the mere academic side of
things, there are also plenty of performances available by many highly
distinguished conductors who make that "case" in musically very
convincing ways. The ongoing, deep fascination that many musicians and
listeners have with the music of this composer in itself is a very
strong "refutation".
However, none of the above is available to someone like you who has a
way too short attention span to grasp all of that, and who has such an
underdeveloped sense of harmony that he thinks Bruckner's highly
complex harmonic language is "simple-minded". It's simply beyond you.
herman
Dec 11, 2011, 2:33:16 PM12/11/11
to
On 11 déc, 20:12, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 11, 12:05 pm, Kimba W Lion
>
> <norepliesbyem...@norepliesbyemail.invalid> wrote:
> > herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >There's a difference between saying 'I don't like Bruckner 8' and
> > >'It's no good; look at all those false climaxes!'
>
> > The only problem is that you're not willing to acknowledge that in the second
> > case the words "in my opinion" are implicit, not explicit.
>
> > There are no absolutes in music.
>
I think you're wrong. I have a pretty strong feeling Bernstein would
> On Dec 11, 12:05 pm, Kimba W Lion
>
> <norepliesbyem...@norepliesbyemail.invalid> wrote:
> > herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >There's a difference between saying 'I don't like Bruckner 8' and
> > >'It's no good; look at all those false climaxes!'
>
> > The only problem is that you're not willing to acknowledge that in the second
> > case the words "in my opinion" are implicit, not explicit.
>
> > There are no absolutes in music.
>
dismiss your idea immediately.
After a concert he didn't turn to the audience and say, "this was just
my opinion."
Gerard
Dec 11, 2011, 4:26:07 PM12/11/11
to
Kimba W Lion
Dec 11, 2011, 6:02:11 PM12/11/11
to
herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>After a concert he didn't turn to the audience and say, "this was just
>my opinion."
...because that was implicit right from the beginning.
>After a concert he didn't turn to the audience and say, "this was just
>my opinion."
Dufus
Dec 11, 2011, 6:24:08 PM12/11/11
to
On Dec 10, 8:38 pm, Kimba W Lion
Dufus
<norepliesbyem...@norepliesbyemail.invalid> wrote:
>
> IMO, having nothing to say never stopped Bruckner from saying it anyway.
Bravo ! Better than Hanslick ! LOL.
>
> IMO, having nothing to say never stopped Bruckner from saying it anyway.
Dufus
maready
Dec 11, 2011, 8:02:03 PM12/11/11
to
On Dec 9, 10:00 am, Nigel Curtis <cn_cur...@runbox.com> wrote:
> Tucked away in the recent discussion on Brucker #6, was the following
> story about Bernstein in Japan playing the entire Bruckner #8 on the
> piano from memory.
>
> Ignoring the 'modern myth' aspect of whether this feat happened
> exactly as described (I guess it's more likely he played good-sized
> excerpts) what do people think about this criticism of the piece
> itself?
>
> It's the first time I've heard this 'too many false climaxes' levelled
> against it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Bernstein only performed one Bruckner symphony in his career - the
> >Ninth, though he performed that frequently, and recorded it twice (once
> >with New York and once, later, with Vienna Phil). He did not care for the
> >other Bruckner symphonies. I had the privilege of working with Bernstein
> >over a period of about ten years, and touring with him and the New York
> >Philharmonic in Japan in 1979. One night after a concert, and after he
> >had signed autographs, I asked him why he didn't do other Bruckner besides
> >the Ninth - particularly the Eighth, which I thought would be magnificent
> >in his hands. He made a face and told me that it was a terrible piece --
> >too long, too many "false climaxes", etc. I argued with him, and he
> >proceeded to drag me over to a piano (this was about 11:00PM or so), and
> >play through the entire symphony (though he didn't take the Scherzo
> >repeat), commenting along the way on what he found wrong with it. What I
> >find most remarkable about this, if you think about it, is that he didn't
> >like this piece, never conducted it, yet knew it well enough to pull it
> >out of his head and play through all of it at the piano, not having been
> >prepared to do so at all! He was one of a kind.
I'm not sure where I heard it --- I thought it was in Henry Fogel's
anecdote, perhaps in a different telling; maybe a different quote
entirely, but I recall that Bernstein's problem with Bruckner in
general, but particularly the Eighth, was the composer's overuse (in
Bernstein's opinion) of sequential repetition, and that his playing of
the piece at the piano was to demonstrate this thesis by highlighting
the four and eight bar phrases that are taken, otherwise unchanged,
and transposed to excess (in Bernstein's opinion.) This is not an
unusual criticism of Bruckner, although I think it overstated. I
remember thinking it odd that Bernstein had recorded the Ninth twice,
since, in my since-changed opinion, it was that symphony which most
suffered from a surfeit of sequential stretching. However, now I
disagree both with Bernstein and my former self RE the Brucknerian
Sequence --- and still can't find the original quote I remember ......
FWIW, I prefer Giulini's DG Bruckner 9 with the WP to Bernstein's and
I rather enjoy LB's live Sixth Symphony, headstrong and sloppy as it
is. (I've never heard the earlier NYPO Ninth; maybe there's a reason
it's not resurfaced on CD? Or has it?)
> Tucked away in the recent discussion on Brucker #6, was the following
> story about Bernstein in Japan playing the entire Bruckner #8 on the
> piano from memory.
>
> Ignoring the 'modern myth' aspect of whether this feat happened
> exactly as described (I guess it's more likely he played good-sized
> excerpts) what do people think about this criticism of the piece
> itself?
>
> It's the first time I've heard this 'too many false climaxes' levelled
> against it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Bernstein only performed one Bruckner symphony in his career - the
> >Ninth, though he performed that frequently, and recorded it twice (once
> >with New York and once, later, with Vienna Phil). He did not care for the
> >other Bruckner symphonies. I had the privilege of working with Bernstein
> >over a period of about ten years, and touring with him and the New York
> >Philharmonic in Japan in 1979. One night after a concert, and after he
> >had signed autographs, I asked him why he didn't do other Bruckner besides
> >the Ninth - particularly the Eighth, which I thought would be magnificent
> >in his hands. He made a face and told me that it was a terrible piece --
> >too long, too many "false climaxes", etc. I argued with him, and he
> >proceeded to drag me over to a piano (this was about 11:00PM or so), and
> >play through the entire symphony (though he didn't take the Scherzo
> >repeat), commenting along the way on what he found wrong with it. What I
> >find most remarkable about this, if you think about it, is that he didn't
> >like this piece, never conducted it, yet knew it well enough to pull it
> >out of his head and play through all of it at the piano, not having been
> >prepared to do so at all! He was one of a kind.
I'm not sure where I heard it --- I thought it was in Henry Fogel's
anecdote, perhaps in a different telling; maybe a different quote
entirely, but I recall that Bernstein's problem with Bruckner in
general, but particularly the Eighth, was the composer's overuse (in
Bernstein's opinion) of sequential repetition, and that his playing of
the piece at the piano was to demonstrate this thesis by highlighting
the four and eight bar phrases that are taken, otherwise unchanged,
and transposed to excess (in Bernstein's opinion.) This is not an
unusual criticism of Bruckner, although I think it overstated. I
remember thinking it odd that Bernstein had recorded the Ninth twice,
since, in my since-changed opinion, it was that symphony which most
suffered from a surfeit of sequential stretching. However, now I
disagree both with Bernstein and my former self RE the Brucknerian
Sequence --- and still can't find the original quote I remember ......
FWIW, I prefer Giulini's DG Bruckner 9 with the WP to Bernstein's and
I rather enjoy LB's live Sixth Symphony, headstrong and sloppy as it
is. (I've never heard the earlier NYPO Ninth; maybe there's a reason
it's not resurfaced on CD? Or has it?)
M forever
Dec 11, 2011, 8:28:18 PM12/11/11
to
CDs. It's terrible. Probably one of the worst, if not the worst
Bruckner recording I have ever heard. The orchestra stumbles through
the piece like a high school ban sight reading. When he conducted the
work again in Vienna, Bernstein still didn't have a coherent idea of
the music. But that time, he was more or less saved by the orchestra.
That, BTW, was Bernstein's last appearance with the WP in Vienna. His
last concerts with the WP were then on a tour to NY the following
week. I just wish he had done some more Sibelius rather than dabbling
in Bruckner. It would have been awesome if he had completed his second
Sibelius cycle.
maready
Dec 11, 2011, 8:44:46 PM12/11/11
to
competition for 'worst-ever' Bruckner symphony recording, and if the
NYPO/Bernstein 9th is a true contender, I feel a certain obligation to
hear it. I'll keep my eyes peeled for a cheap (Vinyl) (LP) of it.
Ray Hall
Dec 11, 2011, 10:03:49 PM12/11/11
to
Terry wrote:
> Although Beecham put it more colourfully than Bernstein. At the risk of
> misquoting him: "In the first movement alone I counted four pregnancies and
> three miscarriages."
>
The work is far too long, even for Bruckner. It sags under its own
> Although Beecham put it more colourfully than Bernstein. At the risk of
> misquoting him: "In the first movement alone I counted four pregnancies and
> three miscarriages."
>
weight. A good Adagio nonetheless.
Ray Hall, Taree
M forever
Dec 12, 2011, 12:44:15 AM12/12/11
to
civilized world, like Canada and Australia. But then who gives a shit
what those people think about "classical music" that they have no
relationship to anyway?
herman
Dec 12, 2011, 3:02:22 AM12/12/11
to
On 12 déc, 00:02, Kimba W Lion
My goodness. You guys keep nattering on and on about Lenny this and
Lenny that, and you (I'm generalising here) haven't understood the
first thing about Bernstein.
He didn't "implicitly" think he was just giving an opinion on the
music he was conducting.
In the case of Mahler, for instance, he believed he was channeling
Mahler one on one.
I know the money's not too bad, but you don't go and stand between an
orchestra of 75 men (or more) and an audience of 2000 thinking you're
just giving an opinion.
That's what a cyber age audience member thinks, and quite rightly so,
but it's not what the conductor is thinking. A conductor is not part
of the audience.
Lenny that, and you (I'm generalising here) haven't understood the
first thing about Bernstein.
He didn't "implicitly" think he was just giving an opinion on the
music he was conducting.
In the case of Mahler, for instance, he believed he was channeling
Mahler one on one.
I know the money's not too bad, but you don't go and stand between an
orchestra of 75 men (or more) and an audience of 2000 thinking you're
just giving an opinion.
That's what a cyber age audience member thinks, and quite rightly so,
but it's not what the conductor is thinking. A conductor is not part
of the audience.
Gerard
Dec 12, 2011, 3:18:40 AM12/12/11
to
Nationalism and 'Deutschland über alles' forever.
Ray Hall
Dec 12, 2011, 3:39:48 AM12/12/11
to
nothing. I don't see his posts anymore, so thanks for replying Gerard.
No change obviously. A product of his own 'kulture'.
Ray Hall, Taree
Kimba W Lion
Dec 12, 2011, 7:21:08 AM12/12/11
to
herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>My goodness. You guys keep nattering on and on about Lenny this and
>Lenny that, and you (I'm generalising here) haven't understood the
>first thing about Bernstein.
>
>He didn't "implicitly" think he was just giving an opinion on the
>music he was conducting.
>
>In the case of Mahler, for instance, he believed he was channeling
>Mahler one on one.
>
>I know the money's not too bad, but you don't go and stand between an
>orchestra of 75 men (or more) and an audience of 2000 thinking you're
>just giving an opinion.
>
>That's what a cyber age audience member thinks, and quite rightly so,
>but it's not what the conductor is thinking. A conductor is not part
>of the audience.
EVEN IF Bernstein's ego was so big, EVEN IF Bernstein was so insane that he
>My goodness. You guys keep nattering on and on about Lenny this and
>Lenny that, and you (I'm generalising here) haven't understood the
>first thing about Bernstein.
>
>He didn't "implicitly" think he was just giving an opinion on the
>music he was conducting.
>
>In the case of Mahler, for instance, he believed he was channeling
>Mahler one on one.
>
>I know the money's not too bad, but you don't go and stand between an
>orchestra of 75 men (or more) and an audience of 2000 thinking you're
>just giving an opinion.
>
>That's what a cyber age audience member thinks, and quite rightly so,
>but it's not what the conductor is thinking. A conductor is not part
>of the audience.
thought no one else ever had a valid interpretation of a work, what he said
about any piece of music is, to any other person, Bernstein's opinion, and
nothing to get upset over. You either agree with him or you don't. Bruckner's
score is still unchanged.
herman
Dec 12, 2011, 7:37:20 AM12/12/11
to
On 12 déc, 13:21, Kimba W Lion
<norepliesbyem...@norepliesbyemail.invalid> wrote:
> what he said
> about any piece of music is, to any other person, Bernstein's opinion, and
> nothing to get upset over. You either agree with him or you don't. Bruckner's
> score is still unchanged.
Oh, I don't get upset about it. Good or bad I don't care.
> what he said
> about any piece of music is, to any other person, Bernstein's opinion, and
> nothing to get upset over. You either agree with him or you don't. Bruckner's
> score is still unchanged.
Ricky Jimenez
Dec 12, 2011, 8:03:06 AM12/12/11
to
in Bruckner. He starts building expectations that something big is
about to happen, the music gets louder but instead of some heroic
theme emerging, things subside to a gentle whimpering.
Dufus
Dec 12, 2011, 8:26:13 AM12/12/11
to
On Dec 11, 11:44 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>. But then who gives a shit
> what those people think about "classical music" that they have no
> relationship to anyway?
Australian Classical music artists, just off the top of my head :
>. But then who gives a shit
> what those people think about "classical music" that they have no
> relationship to anyway?
Joan Sutherland
Richard Bonynage
Geoffrey Simon
Charles Mackerras
Percy Grainger
Piers Lane
Geoffrey Tozer
Tossy Spivakovsky
Malcolm Williamson
And that white building in the Sydney harbor ? And what on earth was
Kapell doing there in 1953 ?
Dufus
Matthew B. Tepper
Dec 12, 2011, 10:36:39 AM12/12/11
to
Dufus <steve...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:dd3888dc-bbac-4e02-bfa7-
4f57b4...@a17g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
Don't forget some of the old-time singers: Nellie Melba, Florence Austral,
Peter Dawson, and Harold Williams. The first two even took their stage
names to reflect their national origins.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
to be typed in news:dd3888dc-bbac-4e02-bfa7-
4f57b4...@a17g2000yqj.googlegroups.com:
Peter Dawson, and Harold Williams. The first two even took their stage
names to reflect their national origins.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Ed Romans
Dec 12, 2011, 10:59:44 AM12/12/11
to
On Dec 12, 1:44 am, maready <dab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> hear it. I'll keep my eyes peeled for a cheap (Vinyl) (LP) of it.-
if you're really keen it has reissued in the big Bernstein symphony
edition box. UK Itunes store seems to sell the Bruckner on its own for
3.95 pounds.
Personally I don't find it that bad - it's just typical of the very
scrappy sounding Bernstein/NYPO recordings from Avery Fisher Hall made
in the late 60s/early 70s.
Ed
> hear it. I'll keep my eyes peeled for a cheap (Vinyl) (LP) of it.-
if you're really keen it has reissued in the big Bernstein symphony
edition box. UK Itunes store seems to sell the Bruckner on its own for
3.95 pounds.
Personally I don't find it that bad - it's just typical of the very
scrappy sounding Bernstein/NYPO recordings from Avery Fisher Hall made
in the late 60s/early 70s.
Ed
M forever
Dec 12, 2011, 7:20:56 PM12/12/11
to
On Dec 12, 8:26 am, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 11, 11:44 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >. But then who gives a shit
> > what those people think about "classical music" that they have no
> > relationship to anyway?
>
> Australian Classical music artists, just off the top of my head :
>
> Joan Sutherland
> Richard Bonynage
> Geoffrey Simon
> Charles Mackerras
> Percy Grainger
> Piers Lane
> Geoffrey Tozer
> Tossy Spivakovsky
> Malcolm Williamson
>
> And that white building in the Sydney harbor ?
Just symbol, a failed attempt to show some "culture". According to a
> On Dec 11, 11:44 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >. But then who gives a shit
> > what those people think about "classical music" that they have no
> > relationship to anyway?
>
> Australian Classical music artists, just off the top of my head :
>
> Joan Sutherland
> Richard Bonynage
> Geoffrey Simon
> Charles Mackerras
> Percy Grainger
> Piers Lane
> Geoffrey Tozer
> Tossy Spivakovsky
> Malcolm Williamson
>
> And that white building in the Sydney harbor ?
number of people I know who have performed there, among the worst
concert halls and opera houses in the world. And most or all of the
above made their careers not in Australia. Obviously, they have
talented people there like everywhere in the rest of the world. The
best example among the above is Mackerras who realized how little he
really knew about European music and the cultural background, so he
immersed himself particularly deeply in his studies of Czech music and
culture, or of historical performance practice. A very laudable
attitude, the exact opposite of the proudly displayed provincial
ignorance of people like Hall.
M forever
Dec 12, 2011, 7:22:47 PM12/12/11
to
you know? It's funny when somebody from Tasmania calls someone from
Berlin "provincial", especially in a forum about classical music.
Maybe things are really upside down down there...makes sense.
Dufus
Dec 12, 2011, 8:07:24 PM12/12/11
to
On Dec 12, 6:22 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> when somebody from Tasmania calls someone from
> Berlin "provincial",
As do all other Germans when referring to Berliners and their "
> when somebody from Tasmania calls someone from
> Berlin "provincial",
Berliner schnautze".
Dufus
Gerard
Dec 13, 2011, 2:58:33 AM12/13/11
to
Does not make sense.
BTW it's very conspicious that you write "makes sense" *every* time your
writings do *not* make sense at all.
You lie even about your own words!
Ray Hall
Dec 13, 2011, 7:39:30 AM12/13/11
to
Gerard wrote:
>
> Again your provincialism shows. And you're talking about things you don't know.
> Does not make sense.
> BTW it's very conspicious that you write "makes sense" *every* time your
> writings do *not* make sense at all.
> You lie even about your own words!
The oaf even lies or makes up things about Tasmania too. Never been
>
> Again your provincialism shows. And you're talking about things you don't know.
> Does not make sense.
> BTW it's very conspicious that you write "makes sense" *every* time your
> writings do *not* make sense at all.
> You lie even about your own words!
there in my life.
Ray Hall, Taree, New South Wales
Dufus
Dec 13, 2011, 9:05:04 AM12/13/11
to
On Dec 13, 6:39 am, Ray Hall <raymond.ha...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> The oaf even lies or makes up things about Tasmania too. Never been
> there in my life.
Sounds like you should go over there at least once, Ray. Tasmania has
> The oaf even lies or makes up things about Tasmania too. Never been
> there in my life.
its own symphony orchestra, and pianist Eileen Joyce was born there !
Per Wiki :
" The Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra was established in 1948, and gave
its first concert on 25 May in the Hobart Town Hall, under the baton
of Joseph Post. The soloist was the Tasmanian-born pianist Eileen
Joyce, who performed the Piano Concerto in A minor by Edvard Grieg.[1]
From 1973 to 1998 its home was the ABC Odeon, a renovated former
cinema built in 1916 as a replica of New York's Strand Theater. It has
now moved to the Federation Concert Hall.
The TSO was the first Australian orchestra to have its own radio
program, "Journey into Melody", which was broadcast weekly from 1956
to 1969.
By the late 1960s, there were far more subscribers per head of the
state population (1 in 144) than in any of the other capital-city
based ABC orchestras. In 1995, when funding cuts threatened to
downsize the orchestra from 47 players, a petition was launched by the
Friends of the TSO that gathered 35,000 signatures, the largest
petition in Tasmanian history.
It receives government funding from both the Tasmanian and Australian
governments. The Orchestra performs at a number of concert venues both
in Tasmania and interstate, including Federation Concert Hall, Tolosa
Park in Glenorchy, Princess Theatre and Albert Hall both in
Launceston, Burnie Town Hall, Devonport Entertainment Centre, Wrest
Point Entertainment Centre in Sandy Bay and the City Recital Hall in
Sydney. Major sponsors of the Orchestra include Hydro Tasmania, Bass
and Equitable Building Society and the Hobart City Council.
Amongst the orchestra's recordings are the complete works of Ignaz
Moscheles for piano and orchestra, for which the soloist and conductor
was Howard Shelley.
The TSO has toured to Israel, Greece, South Korea and Indonesia, as
well as widely throughout Australia. It won the 1996 Sidney Myer
Performing Arts Award, and a documentary on Maurice Ravel's Mother
Goose, which featured the TSO, won the Best Biography Profile at the
New York Festival International Television Programming Awards."
And home of Australia's largest beer festival !!
http://tasmanianbeerfest.com/pages/about.php
Dufus
Gerard
Dec 13, 2011, 9:57:22 AM12/13/11
to
35,000 signatures?
I can tell you a secret (that is hidden deeply in Per Wiki):
many places in the world have their own symphony orchestras.
herman
Dec 13, 2011, 2:24:23 PM12/13/11
to
On 13 déc, 15:05, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 13, 6:39 am, Ray Hall <raymond.ha...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > The oaf even lies or makes up things about Tasmania too. Never been
> > there in my life.
>
> Sounds like you should go over there at least once, Ray. Tasmania has
> its own symphony orchestra, and pianist Eileen Joyce was born there !
> Per Wiki :
>
I'm booking a flight right away!
> On Dec 13, 6:39 am, Ray Hall <raymond.ha...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> > The oaf even lies or makes up things about Tasmania too. Never been
> > there in my life.
>
> Sounds like you should go over there at least once, Ray. Tasmania has
> its own symphony orchestra, and pianist Eileen Joyce was born there !
> Per Wiki :
>
Why stay in Amsterdam when I can be some place where a pianist I have
never heard lived the first year of her life?
herman
Dec 13, 2011, 2:45:07 PM12/13/11
to
On 13 déc, 20:24, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Sounds like you should go over there at least once, Ray. Tasmania has
> > its own symphony orchestra, and pianist Eileen Joyce was born there !
> > Per Wiki :
>
> I'm booking a flight right away!
>
> Why stay in Amsterdam when I can be some place where a pianist I have
> never heard lived the first year of her life?
honestly Tasmania is probably one of the most beautiful places on
>
> > Sounds like you should go over there at least once, Ray. Tasmania has
> > its own symphony orchestra, and pianist Eileen Joyce was born there !
> > Per Wiki :
>
> I'm booking a flight right away!
>
> Why stay in Amsterdam when I can be some place where a pianist I have
> never heard lived the first year of her life?
earth, but I wouldn't go there for its classical music.
M forever
Dec 13, 2011, 3:41:43 PM12/13/11
to
(congrats for managing to package two spelling mistakes in just one
word, so obviously that's not a word you actually understand, just
something you read somewhere), stands for at all. It actually stands
for the opposite, a cosmopolitan big-city dialect which reflects the
many influences coming together in a metropolis like Berlin, there is
Hugenot French in there, Yiddish, and many other influences, all fused
together in a markedly local dialect which is as complex as the
influences that went into it.
Gerard
Dec 13, 2011, 3:56:17 PM12/13/11
to
herman
Dec 13, 2011, 4:06:22 PM12/13/11
to
On 13 déc, 21:56, "Gerard" <ghendriksen-nosp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> If you tell Drufus that they have nice cheap wines there, he's on his way.
yeah, but what about Youtube? What's the youtube like there?
>
> If you tell Drufus that they have nice cheap wines there, he's on his way.
Gerard
Dec 13, 2011, 5:05:31 PM12/13/11
to
Kip Williams
Dec 13, 2011, 6:07:30 PM12/13/11
to
this afternoon. Is it so hard to skip over things you're not interested in?
Kip W
rkhalona
Dec 13, 2011, 6:17:54 PM12/13/11
to
On Dec 9, 7:26 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 9, 7:13 am, Roland van Gaalen <rolandvangaa...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Otto Klemperer in his program notes (New Philharmonia Orchestra, concert of 17 Nov. 1970):
>
> > "In the last movement of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony I have made cuts. In this instance it seems to me that the composer was so full of musical invention that he went too far. Brucknerians will object, and it is certainly not my intention that these cuts should be considered as a model for others. I can only take the responsibility for my own interpretation."
>
> > Source: Klemperer on Music, Toccata Press, London, 1986, p. 121
>
> IMHO, both Bernstein and Klemps were wrong. Nothing wrong with the
> length of the piece. I don't even know what Lenny is talking about
> with his false climax charge, though I could see how Lenny's way of
> music making in general could lead to a performance that gave off that
> impression.
Bruckner himself said that his music was "for later times," and he was
certainly right.
I think musicians, just like people in general, do not respond to
certain compositions.
Klemperer loved the Mahler 2nd (made a piano transcription of it,
which he played for the composer and got a recommendation from Mahler
that
helped him start his conducting career), but would not touch some of
the other symphonies (3, 5, 6, 8). Same thing with Bruno Walter who
was even closer to Mahler
(Mahler did conduct the 5th, I think). We often forget that musicians
have preferences, like the rest of us.
RK
> On Dec 9, 7:13 am, Roland van Gaalen <rolandvangaa...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Otto Klemperer in his program notes (New Philharmonia Orchestra, concert of 17 Nov. 1970):
>
> > "In the last movement of Bruckner's Eighth Symphony I have made cuts. In this instance it seems to me that the composer was so full of musical invention that he went too far. Brucknerians will object, and it is certainly not my intention that these cuts should be considered as a model for others. I can only take the responsibility for my own interpretation."
>
> > Source: Klemperer on Music, Toccata Press, London, 1986, p. 121
>
> IMHO, both Bernstein and Klemps were wrong. Nothing wrong with the
> length of the piece. I don't even know what Lenny is talking about
> with his false climax charge, though I could see how Lenny's way of
> music making in general could lead to a performance that gave off that
> impression.
Bruckner himself said that his music was "for later times," and he was
certainly right.
I think musicians, just like people in general, do not respond to
certain compositions.
Klemperer loved the Mahler 2nd (made a piano transcription of it,
which he played for the composer and got a recommendation from Mahler
that
helped him start his conducting career), but would not touch some of
the other symphonies (3, 5, 6, 8). Same thing with Bruno Walter who
was even closer to Mahler
(Mahler did conduct the 5th, I think). We often forget that musicians
have preferences, like the rest of us.
RK
rkhalona
Dec 13, 2011, 6:27:34 PM12/13/11
to
On Dec 11, 5:44 pm, maready <dab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 11, 8:28 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 11, 8:02 pm, maready <dab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 9, 10:00 am, Nigel Curtis <cn_cur...@runbox.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Tucked away in the recent discussion on Brucker #6, was the following
> > > > story about Bernstein in Japan playing the entire Bruckner #8 on the
> > > > piano from memory.
>
> > > > Ignoring the 'modern myth' aspect of whether this feat happened
> > > > exactly as described (I guess it's more likely he played good-sized
> > > > excerpts) what do people think about this criticism of the piece
> > > > itself?
>
> > > > It's the first time I've heard this 'too many false climaxes' levelled
> > > > against it.
>
> > > > > Bernstein only performed one Bruckner symphony in his career - the
> > > > >Ninth, though he performed that frequently, and recorded it twice (once
> > > > >with New York and once, later, with Vienna Phil). He did not care for the
> > > > >other Bruckner symphonies. I had the privilege of working with Bernstein
> > > > >over a period of about ten years, and touring with him and the New York
> > > > >Philharmonic in Japan in 1979. One night after a concert, and after he
> > > > >had signed autographs, I asked him why he didn't do other Bruckner besides
> > > > >the Ninth - particularly the Eighth, which I thought would be magnificent
> > > > >in his hands. He made a face and told me that it was a terrible piece --
> > > > >too long, too many "false climaxes", etc. I argued with him, and he
> > > > >proceeded to drag me over to a piano (this was about 11:00PM or so), and
> > > > >play through the entire symphony (though he didn't take the Scherzo
> > > > >repeat), commenting along the way on what he found wrong with it. What I
> > > > >find most remarkable about this, if you think about it, is that he didn't
> > > > >like this piece, never conducted it, yet knew it well enough to pull it
> > > > >out of his head and play through all of it at the piano, not having been
> > > > >prepared to do so at all! He was one of a kind.
>
> > > I'm not sure where I heard it --- I thought it was in Henry Fogel's
> > > anecdote, perhaps in a different telling; maybe a different quote
> > > entirely, but I recall that Bernstein's problem with Bruckner in
> > > general, but particularly the Eighth, was the composer's overuse (in
> > > Bernstein's opinion) of sequential repetition, and that his playing of
> > > the piece at the piano was to demonstrate this thesis by highlighting
> > > the four and eight bar phrases that are taken, otherwise unchanged,
> > > and transposed to excess (in Bernstein's opinion.) This is not an
> > > unusual criticism of Bruckner, although I think it overstated. I
> > > remember thinking it odd that Bernstein had recorded the Ninth twice,
> > > since, in my since-changed opinion, it was that symphony which most
> > > suffered from a surfeit of sequential stretching. However, now I
> > > disagree both with Bernstein and my former self RE the Brucknerian
> > > Sequence --- and still can't find the original quote I remember ......
> > > FWIW, I prefer Giulini's DG Bruckner 9 with the WP to Bernstein's and
> > > I rather enjoy LB's live Sixth Symphony, headstrong and sloppy as it
> > > is. (I've never heard the earlier NYPO Ninth; maybe there's a reason
> > > it's not resurfaced on CD? Or has it?)
>
> > Unfortunately for Bernstein, it has, on one of the "Royal Edition"
> > CDs. It's terrible. Probably one of the worst, if not the worst
> > Bruckner recording I have ever heard. The orchestra stumbles through
> > the piece like a high school ban sight reading. When he conducted the
> > work again in Vienna, Bernstein still didn't have a coherent idea of
> > the music. But that time, he was more or less saved by the orchestra.
> > That, BTW, was Bernstein's last appearance with the WP in Vienna. His
> > last concerts with the WP were then on a tour to NY the following
> > week. I just wish he had done some more Sibelius rather than dabbling
> > in Bruckner. It would have been awesome if he had completed his second
> > Sibelius cycle.
> > Unfortunately for Bernstein, it has, on one of the "Royal Edition"
> > CDs. It's terrible. Probably one of the worst, if not the worst
> > Bruckner recording I have ever heard.
>
> That almost makes it sound worth seeking out ----- there's a lot of
> competition for 'worst-ever' Bruckner symphony recording, and if the
> NYPO/Bernstein 9th is a true contender, I feel a certain obligation to
> hear it. I'll keep my eyes peeled for a cheap (Vinyl) (LP) of it.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Please enter Vladimir Delman's Bruckner 9th in the contest. You will
enjoy it :-)
RK
> On Dec 11, 8:28 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 11, 8:02 pm, maready <dab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 9, 10:00 am, Nigel Curtis <cn_cur...@runbox.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Tucked away in the recent discussion on Brucker #6, was the following
> > > > story about Bernstein in Japan playing the entire Bruckner #8 on the
> > > > piano from memory.
>
> > > > Ignoring the 'modern myth' aspect of whether this feat happened
> > > > exactly as described (I guess it's more likely he played good-sized
> > > > excerpts) what do people think about this criticism of the piece
> > > > itself?
>
> > > > It's the first time I've heard this 'too many false climaxes' levelled
> > > > against it.
>
> > > > > Bernstein only performed one Bruckner symphony in his career - the
> > > > >Ninth, though he performed that frequently, and recorded it twice (once
> > > > >with New York and once, later, with Vienna Phil). He did not care for the
> > > > >other Bruckner symphonies. I had the privilege of working with Bernstein
> > > > >over a period of about ten years, and touring with him and the New York
> > > > >Philharmonic in Japan in 1979. One night after a concert, and after he
> > > > >had signed autographs, I asked him why he didn't do other Bruckner besides
> > > > >the Ninth - particularly the Eighth, which I thought would be magnificent
> > > > >in his hands. He made a face and told me that it was a terrible piece --
> > > > >too long, too many "false climaxes", etc. I argued with him, and he
> > > > >proceeded to drag me over to a piano (this was about 11:00PM or so), and
> > > > >play through the entire symphony (though he didn't take the Scherzo
> > > > >repeat), commenting along the way on what he found wrong with it. What I
> > > > >find most remarkable about this, if you think about it, is that he didn't
> > > > >like this piece, never conducted it, yet knew it well enough to pull it
> > > > >out of his head and play through all of it at the piano, not having been
> > > > >prepared to do so at all! He was one of a kind.
>
> > > I'm not sure where I heard it --- I thought it was in Henry Fogel's
> > > anecdote, perhaps in a different telling; maybe a different quote
> > > entirely, but I recall that Bernstein's problem with Bruckner in
> > > general, but particularly the Eighth, was the composer's overuse (in
> > > Bernstein's opinion) of sequential repetition, and that his playing of
> > > the piece at the piano was to demonstrate this thesis by highlighting
> > > the four and eight bar phrases that are taken, otherwise unchanged,
> > > and transposed to excess (in Bernstein's opinion.) This is not an
> > > unusual criticism of Bruckner, although I think it overstated. I
> > > remember thinking it odd that Bernstein had recorded the Ninth twice,
> > > since, in my since-changed opinion, it was that symphony which most
> > > suffered from a surfeit of sequential stretching. However, now I
> > > disagree both with Bernstein and my former self RE the Brucknerian
> > > Sequence --- and still can't find the original quote I remember ......
> > > FWIW, I prefer Giulini's DG Bruckner 9 with the WP to Bernstein's and
> > > I rather enjoy LB's live Sixth Symphony, headstrong and sloppy as it
> > > is. (I've never heard the earlier NYPO Ninth; maybe there's a reason
> > > it's not resurfaced on CD? Or has it?)
>
> > Unfortunately for Bernstein, it has, on one of the "Royal Edition"
> > CDs. It's terrible. Probably one of the worst, if not the worst
> > Bruckner recording I have ever heard. The orchestra stumbles through
> > the piece like a high school ban sight reading. When he conducted the
> > work again in Vienna, Bernstein still didn't have a coherent idea of
> > the music. But that time, he was more or less saved by the orchestra.
> > That, BTW, was Bernstein's last appearance with the WP in Vienna. His
> > last concerts with the WP were then on a tour to NY the following
> > week. I just wish he had done some more Sibelius rather than dabbling
> > in Bruckner. It would have been awesome if he had completed his second
> > Sibelius cycle.
> > Unfortunately for Bernstein, it has, on one of the "Royal Edition"
> > CDs. It's terrible. Probably one of the worst, if not the worst
> > Bruckner recording I have ever heard.
>
> That almost makes it sound worth seeking out ----- there's a lot of
> competition for 'worst-ever' Bruckner symphony recording, and if the
> NYPO/Bernstein 9th is a true contender, I feel a certain obligation to
> hear it. I'll keep my eyes peeled for a cheap (Vinyl) (LP) of it.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Please enter Vladimir Delman's Bruckner 9th in the contest. You will
enjoy it :-)
RK
Oscar
Dec 13, 2011, 6:30:53 PM12/13/11
to
Why this is marked as abuse? It has been marked as abuse.
Report not abuse
On Dec 13, 3:07 pm, Kip Williams wrote:
>
> >> If you tell Dufus that they have nice cheap wines there, he's on his way.
he's simply just another Merican expat, probably from San Bernardino
or Joplin or somewhere terribly unmemorable. But now that he's really
livin' large he just can't help himself with comments like that which
you reference.
On Jun 5, 1:39 pm, herman wrote:
>
> I assess people's posts here on what they have to say; frankly I am
> too busy to keep track of who is who and what they're supposedly doing
> for a living and how they like their steak.
Uhhhhh...sure, bud.
On Aug 20, 12:33 am, herman wrote:
>
> To veer off into the totally irrelevant, I'm rather
> fascinated by Julia Fischer who manages to straddle the divide with
> her very good plush looks; she can play like a demon, and she also has
> a powerful intellect. Sort of the sexy Professor, who plays both the
> violin and the piano, and can crack a good joke. I need to cool off
> now.
Pervert. She's 30 years your junior.
>
> >> If you tell Dufus that they have nice cheap wines there, he's on his way.
>
> > yeah, but what about Youtube? What's the youtube like there?
>
> Probably about like right here, where I'm watching a YouTube link from
> this afternoon. Is it so hard to skip over things you're not interested in?
Herman likes to remind us that he is a cosmopolitan Amsterdammer, but
> > yeah, but what about Youtube? What's the youtube like there?
>
> Probably about like right here, where I'm watching a YouTube link from
> this afternoon. Is it so hard to skip over things you're not interested in?
he's simply just another Merican expat, probably from San Bernardino
or Joplin or somewhere terribly unmemorable. But now that he's really
livin' large he just can't help himself with comments like that which
you reference.
On Jun 5, 1:39 pm, herman wrote:
>
> I assess people's posts here on what they have to say; frankly I am
> too busy to keep track of who is who and what they're supposedly doing
> for a living and how they like their steak.
Uhhhhh...sure, bud.
On Aug 20, 12:33 am, herman wrote:
>
> To veer off into the totally irrelevant, I'm rather
> fascinated by Julia Fischer who manages to straddle the divide with
> her very good plush looks; she can play like a demon, and she also has
> a powerful intellect. Sort of the sexy Professor, who plays both the
> violin and the piano, and can crack a good joke. I need to cool off
> now.
Pervert. She's 30 years your junior.
rkhalona
Dec 13, 2011, 6:32:06 PM12/13/11
to
some of the other Mahler symphonies.
BTW, is there anyone here who likes Klemperer's coda to the finale of
Mendelssohn's "Scottish" symphony? I get a good laugh every time I
hear it.
It is certainly grandiose, even pompous.
RK
maready
Dec 13, 2011, 6:56:59 PM12/13/11
to
Dufus
Dec 13, 2011, 9:06:19 PM12/13/11
to
On Dec 13, 1:24 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Why stay in Amsterdam when I can be some place where a pianist I have
> never heard lived the first year of her life?
You just answered your own question. You never heard of Joyce, and
> Why stay in Amsterdam when I can be some place where a pianist I have
> never heard lived the first year of her life?
should have.
And I've been to Amsterdam ; Tasmania sounds much more fun.
Dufus
Dufus
Dec 13, 2011, 9:13:33 PM12/13/11
to
> On 13 déc, 21:56, "Gerard" <ghendriksen-nosp...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > If you tell Drufus that they have nice cheap wines there, he's on his way.
> yeah, but what about Youtube? What's the youtube like there?
the World in Australia and New Zealand, reasonably priced even here,
not that you'd have a clue.
As to YT, why not ask the several young artists across the World that
post their performances at YT ; as well as some who have World-class
collections such as Herr Lumpe, TrueCrypt, Hexameron, others ? But
then they do not suffer fools gladly.
Dufus
Dufus
Dec 13, 2011, 9:03:30 PM12/13/11
to
On Dec 13, 2:41 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It actually stands
> for the opposite, a cosmopolitan big-city dialect
Strange (?) , that's not what the Germans , even those in Berlin ,
> It actually stands
> for the opposite, a cosmopolitan big-city dialect
told me when I was in Germany and Berlin.
When were you last in Iowa ?
Dufus
herman
Dec 13, 2011, 9:43:01 PM12/13/11
to
On 14 déc, 00:30, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Pervert. She's 30 years your junior.
Smokin' hot from Oscar Gestapo files.
>
> Pervert. She's 30 years your junior.
BTW you're even dumber than I thought (not that it matters).
herman
Dec 13, 2011, 10:01:23 PM12/13/11
to
> On Jun 5, 1:39 pm, herman wrote:
>
>
>
> > I assess people's posts here on what they have to say; frankly I am
> > too busy to keep track of who is who and what they're supposedly doing
> > for a living and how they like their steak.
>
> Uhhhhh...sure, bud.
>
Got a problem with that?
>
>
>
> > I assess people's posts here on what they have to say; frankly I am
> > too busy to keep track of who is who and what they're supposedly doing
> > for a living and how they like their steak.
>
> Uhhhhh...sure, bud.
>
There are one or two exceptions, such as you, with your creepy habit
of keeping files on people, or talking about those times you worked
for execrable rock acts.
herman
Dec 13, 2011, 9:57:35 PM12/13/11
to
should put your money were your mouth is.
Do you really think those first months Joyce spent on Tasmania were
formative for her art?
Or is it just a little wiki factoid you found as you were googling
"Australia / Tasmania / classical music"?
Someone else made the point that most of these Australian artists (and
Australia, of course, is a lot larger than Tasmania) left for more
culturally fecund shores as soon as they could. Joyce seems to be one
of those.
If you want to trace Joyce's career (and I have no doubt you're doing
this all the time) London would be more the place to go.
Oscar
Dec 13, 2011, 10:18:59 PM12/13/11
to
Why this is marked as abuse? It has been marked as abuse.
Report not abuse
On Dec 13, 7:01 pm, herman wrote:
>
> > > I assess people's posts here on what they have to say; frankly I am
> > > too busy to keep track of who is who and what they're supposedly doing
> > > for a living and how they like their steak.
>
> > Uhhhhh...sure, bud.
>
> Got a problem with that?
I got a problem with your air of faux-Euro, sourpuss superiority, 'cos
>
> > > I assess people's posts here on what they have to say; frankly I am
> > > too busy to keep track of who is who and what they're supposedly doing
> > > for a living and how they like their steak.
>
> > Uhhhhh...sure, bud.
>
> Got a problem with that?
you're just another Red Rover-playing Merican raised on Tom & Jerry
and TV dinners. You're no more Dutch than Ronald Reagan. Tear down
this façade!
Oscar
Dec 13, 2011, 10:28:35 PM12/13/11
to
Why this is marked as abuse? It has been marked as abuse.
Report not abuse
On Dec 13, 6:43 pm, herman wrote:
>
> > Pervert. She's 30 years your junior.
>
> Smokin' hot from Oscar Gestapo files.
>
> BTW you're even dumber than I thought (not that it matters).
Oh, I'm very HURT!! http://tiny.cc/cyn7y
>
> > Pervert. She's 30 years your junior.
>
> Smokin' hot from Oscar Gestapo files.
>
> BTW you're even dumber than I thought (not that it matters).
Message has been deleted
Bob Harper
Dec 14, 2011, 2:22:48 AM12/14/11
to
Why this is marked as abuse? It has been marked as abuse.
Report not abuse
shop in Berlin in the summer of 2006. I don't remember ever having heard
the Bernstein, but it's difficult to imagine it being worse than
Delman's, which is, for my money, hors concours.
Bob Harper
herman
Dec 14, 2011, 3:07:48 AM12/14/11
to
On 14 déc, 04:18, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I got a problem with your air of faux-Euro, sourpuss superiority, 'cos
> you're just another Red Rover-playing Merican raised on Tom & Jerry
> and TV dinners. You're no more Dutch than Ronald Reagan. Tear down
> this façade!
The reason why I said you were even dumber than I had thought possible
>
> I got a problem with your air of faux-Euro, sourpuss superiority, 'cos
> you're just another Red Rover-playing Merican raised on Tom & Jerry
> and TV dinners. You're no more Dutch than Ronald Reagan. Tear down
> this façade!
is that, obviously, I am from the Netherlands, born and raised.
Europe is not just a tourist destination. There are actual people
living there. I'd say there are eight or ten Dutchmen on this board.
Formerly I was an expat for quite some time, but the other way around,
living in America.
So how's that for stupid superiority?
>Herman likes to remind us that he is a cosmopolitan Amsterdammer, but
>he's simply just another Merican expat, probably from San Bernardino
>or Joplin or somewhere terribly unmemorable. But now that he's really
>livin' large he just can't help himself with comments like that which
>you reference.
You don't get born at some place by choice. I also don't quite see why
it's inferior to be an American expat living in Amsterdam or Prague.
Perhaps in your mind nobody's is as good as you. I'd say that's
debatable, but it would get boring very soon.
The issue was, speaking of classical music, where would you rather be:
in the Netherlands, with ts very dense cultural infrastructure -
three international class orchestras, chamber music, museums &c - or
in Tasmania where all talented people leave for better shores?
And I added, for fairness, that Tasmania would win hands down if you
were solely interested in natural beauty.
whisky...@yahoo.com
Dec 14, 2011, 7:56:45 AM12/14/11
to
On Dec 14, 2:07 am, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> And I added, for fairness, that Tasmania would win hands down if you
> were solely interested in natural beauty.
Tasmania was also home to the Tasmanian Tiger, Thylacinus
> And I added, for fairness, that Tasmania would win hands down if you
> were solely interested in natural beauty.
cynocephalus, which was exterminated as "vermin" by the white settlers
after a bounty was put on it by Van Diemen's Land Company. The last
specimen in captivity died in 1936. It is now accepted that the
animal's jaws were too weak for it to prey on sheep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vqCCI1ZF7o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCov0PXkVo
The Aboriginal Tasmanian people were also wiped out by contact with
Western "Civilization".
Mark S
Dec 14, 2011, 10:04:06 AM12/14/11
to
On Dec 14, 12:07 am, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Europe is not just a tourist destination. There are actual people
> living there. I'd say there are eight or ten Dutchmen on this board.
Rumors are flying in The States that parts of Europe may even get
> Europe is not just a tourist destination. There are actual people
> living there. I'd say there are eight or ten Dutchmen on this board.
indoor plumbing by 2020, though the Republicans are saying that's a
lie intended to entice Americans to relocate to godless, socialist
Europe with their cheap medicine and decent food.
Matthew B. Tepper
Dec 14, 2011, 10:42:06 AM12/14/11
to
Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:1e0396e1-368c-4117-8773-c9f118b6cd2f@
32g2000yqp.googlegroups.com:
> On Dec 14, 12:07 am, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Europe is not just a tourist destination. There are actual people
>> living there. I'd say there are eight or ten Dutchmen on this board.
But how many of those are Gerard in disguise?
> Rumors are flying in The States that parts of Europe may even get
> indoor plumbing by 2020, though the Republicans are saying that's a
> lie intended to entice Americans to relocate to godless, socialist
> Europe with their cheap medicine and decent food.
*chuckle*
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
to be typed in news:1e0396e1-368c-4117-8773-c9f118b6cd2f@
32g2000yqp.googlegroups.com:
> On Dec 14, 12:07 am, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Europe is not just a tourist destination. There are actual people
>> living there. I'd say there are eight or ten Dutchmen on this board.
> Rumors are flying in The States that parts of Europe may even get
> indoor plumbing by 2020, though the Republicans are saying that's a
> lie intended to entice Americans to relocate to godless, socialist
> Europe with their cheap medicine and decent food.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
M forever
Dec 14, 2011, 5:38:13 PM12/14/11
to
8 (even though there are no recordings of that work), 9, DLvdE, and a
number of the Lieder. Apparently he never conducted the 3rd which I
don't understand because I would have thought that it would have fit
with his ideas about art and religion particularly well...
Edward Cowan
Dec 15, 2011, 9:43:59 AM12/15/11
to
And let's not forget baritone John Brownlee! --E.A.C.
Terry <bo...@clown.invalid> wrote:
>
> Eileen Joyce
> Yvonne Minton
> Yvonne Kenny
> Ken Neate
> Steve Davislim
> Roger Woodward
> Richard Tognetti
> John Williams (the guitarist)
> Lisa Gasteen
> Marjorie Lawrence
> Leslie Howard
> Stephen Hough
> Cheryl Barker
> etc. etc.
--
hrabanus
Terry <bo...@clown.invalid> wrote:
>
> Eileen Joyce
> Yvonne Minton
> Yvonne Kenny
> Ken Neate
> Steve Davislim
> Roger Woodward
> Richard Tognetti
> John Williams (the guitarist)
> Lisa Gasteen
> Marjorie Lawrence
> Leslie Howard
> Stephen Hough
> Cheryl Barker
> etc. etc.
--
hrabanus
Edward Cowan
Dec 15, 2011, 9:43:59 AM12/15/11
to
The NYPO archives list a series with Bruckner's sym. no. 6, cond.
Bernstein, back in March, 1976. (See here:
http://history.nyphil.org/nypwcpub/dbweb.asp?ac=a1 ) Also on the program
was Haydn's sym. no. 102. --E.A.C.
Dontait...@aol.com <Dontait...@aol.com> wrote:
> I think Bernstein also conducted Bruckner's Symphony no. 6. I seem
> to remember having a tape of him doing it with the Philharmonic. Or am
> I wrong?
--
hrabanus
Bernstein, back in March, 1976. (See here:
http://history.nyphil.org/nypwcpub/dbweb.asp?ac=a1 ) Also on the program
was Haydn's sym. no. 102. --E.A.C.
Dontait...@aol.com <Dontait...@aol.com> wrote:
> I think Bernstein also conducted Bruckner's Symphony no. 6. I seem
> to remember having a tape of him doing it with the Philharmonic. Or am
> I wrong?
--
hrabanus
rkhalona
Dec 15, 2011, 4:42:52 PM12/15/11
to
Bruckner had composed a cello concerto".
That's what it sounds like at times, with a small orchestra and pretty
closely miked. I bought it for the photo on the cover (Ermitage
issue)
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-9-Vladimir-Delman-ERMITAGE-OOP_W0QQitemZ170654916724QQcmdZViewItemQQssPageNameZRSS:B:SRCH:US:105
The Aura release uses a different, less satisfying photo :-)
RK
Bob Harper
Dec 15, 2011, 7:48:15 PM12/15/11
to
Why this is marked as abuse? It has been marked as abuse.
Report not abuse
On 12/15/11 1:42 PM, rkhalona wrote:
>>
>>> Please enter Vladimir Delman's Bruckner 9th in the contest. You will
>>> enjoy it :-)
>>
>>> RK
>>
>> I bought that recording (quite cheaply, thank goodness) in a used CD
>> shop in Berlin in the summer of 2006. I don't remember ever having heard
>> the Bernstein, but it's difficult to imagine it being worse than
>> Delman's, which is, for my money, hors concours.
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> My dear late friend John Wilson said upon hearing it: "I didn't know
> Bruckner had composed a cello concerto".
> That's what it sounds like at times, with a small orchestra and pretty
> closely miked. I bought it for the photo on the cover (Ermitage
> issue)
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-9-Vladimir-Delman-ERMITAGE-OOP_W0QQitemZ170654916724QQcmdZViewItemQQssPageNameZRSS:B:SRCH:US:105
>
> The Aura release uses a different, less satisfying photo :-)
>
> RK
That's the one I had, and I agree it's a great photo, but what was
>>
>>> Please enter Vladimir Delman's Bruckner 9th in the contest. You will
>>> enjoy it :-)
>>
>>> RK
>>
>> I bought that recording (quite cheaply, thank goodness) in a used CD
>> shop in Berlin in the summer of 2006. I don't remember ever having heard
>> the Bernstein, but it's difficult to imagine it being worse than
>> Delman's, which is, for my money, hors concours.
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> My dear late friend John Wilson said upon hearing it: "I didn't know
> Bruckner had composed a cello concerto".
> That's what it sounds like at times, with a small orchestra and pretty
> closely miked. I bought it for the photo on the cover (Ermitage
> issue)
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Bruckner-Symphony-No-9-Vladimir-Delman-ERMITAGE-OOP_W0QQitemZ170654916724QQcmdZViewItemQQssPageNameZRSS:B:SRCH:US:105
>
> The Aura release uses a different, less satisfying photo :-)
>
> RK
inside....
Bob Harper
Dufus
Dec 16, 2011, 11:15:35 AM12/16/11
to
>On Dec 14, 2:07 am, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> And I added, for fairness, that Tasmania would win hands down if you
> were solely interested in natural beauty.
Trouble in Amsterdam ? Pity if accurate :
>
> And I added, for fairness, that Tasmania would win hands down if you
> were solely interested in natural beauty.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/8961513/Amsterdam-an-end-to-the-red-light-district.html
Gerard
Dec 16, 2011, 12:03:42 PM12/16/11
to
O
Dec 9, 2011, 10:27:19 AM12/9/11
to
In article
<a39330c4-96c8-4bee...@q11g2000vbq.googlegroups.com>,
Mahler even has restarts in the middle of movements. Yet, we all know
how much Lenny liked Gustav.
-Owen
<a39330c4-96c8-4bee...@q11g2000vbq.googlegroups.com>,
Nigel Curtis <cn_c...@runbox.com> wrote:
> Tucked away in the recent discussion on Brucker #6, was the following
> story about Bernstein in Japan playing the entire Bruckner #8 on the
> piano from memory.
>
> Ignoring the 'modern myth' aspect of whether this feat happened
> exactly as described (I guess it's more likely he played good-sized
> excerpts) what do people think about this criticism of the piece
> itself?
>
> It's the first time I've heard this 'too many false climaxes' levelled
> against it.
Yes, and opposed to say, Mahler, who revels in his false climaxes.
> Tucked away in the recent discussion on Brucker #6, was the following
> story about Bernstein in Japan playing the entire Bruckner #8 on the
> piano from memory.
>
> Ignoring the 'modern myth' aspect of whether this feat happened
> exactly as described (I guess it's more likely he played good-sized
> excerpts) what do people think about this criticism of the piece
> itself?
>
> It's the first time I've heard this 'too many false climaxes' levelled
> against it.
Mahler even has restarts in the middle of movements. Yet, we all know
how much Lenny liked Gustav.
-Owen
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