Albert Ferber's Debussy Etudes.

Mandryka

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Mar 23, 2023, 12:59:01 PM3/23/23

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I've become really intrigued by this recording. Is there anyone else who makes these etudes sound so beautiful? And makes them sound so consistent with Debussy's style in other music like Preludes II.

I just tried to listen to Joseph Moog play the first book, and though it's clearly fabulous pianism, I felt it didn't have the magic of Ferber. Somehow Moog seemed reductive, reducing the music to thrills about speed and piano technique. Ferber makes them sound to me like some of Debussy's best poetry.

Here, if you don't know it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk_bU7nlX2c&ab_channel=OnTheTopofDamavandforever

HT

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Mar 23, 2023, 2:03:18 PM3/23/23

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Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 17:59:01 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:

Moog's version of the Debussy études is one of the least interesting I know. Ferber is good but not one of my favourites.

Henk

Frank Berger

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Mar 23, 2023, 2:18:48 PM3/23/23

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Prefer his Fauré.

Andy Evans

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Mar 23, 2023, 2:29:56 PM3/23/23

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On Thursday, 23 March 2023 at 16:59:01 UTC, Mandryka wrote:
> I've become really intrigued by this recording. Is there anyone else who makes these etudes sound so beautiful? And makes them sound so consistent with Debussy's style in other music like Preludes II.

Ferber pulls the music about a lot, and I would hate to call that "consistent with Debussy's style" any more than pulling Chopin about represents "Chopin style". Paul Jacobs and others play the music fairly straight but with feeling and musicality. Other good ones are Gieseking, Rosen, Thibaudet, Queffelec. If you want something a bit more original there's Bonaventura. I don't think there's a perfect set of these etudes - some pianists come closer than others.

Mandryka

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Mar 23, 2023, 2:35:42 PM3/23/23

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I think his Fauré is very good, and I felt that from the first encounter with it. I found these etudes quite disconcerting at first, but slowly they’ve gotten under my skin.

Anyone enjoy his Schubert?,

Mandryka

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Mar 23, 2023, 2:40:31 PM3/23/23

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Mercifully I don’t play piano well enough to notice whether the music is being pulled about. What Ferber does sounds quite natural to me.

Of those you mentioned, the only one which has caught my imagination is Bonaventura - but I can certainly see that Thibaudet is interesting and I intend to give it more time. I can do without Gieseking and Rosen myself in this music, I should need to listen again to Queffelec and Jacobs to comment - to be honest I don’t remember their recordings at all.

HT

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Mar 23, 2023, 3:01:49 PM3/23/23

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Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 19:18:48 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

Seconded!

Henk

HT

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Mar 23, 2023, 3:05:53 PM3/23/23

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Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 19:40:31 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:

Bonaventura is special. These days I'm not only a fan of Crochet's Bach but also of her Fauré. Jacobs and Queffelec are excellent - and quite a few more.

Henk

Mandryka

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Mar 23, 2023, 4:19:39 PM3/23/23

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What do you think of Soulima Stravinsky, Igor's son? I've only just found it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwLErZ9mXM4&ab_channel=OnTheTopofDamavandforever

Mandryka

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Mar 23, 2023, 4:21:58 PM3/23/23

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Oh I now see that you said a couple of years ago that you don't like it at all. Sorry to raise a bad memory!

HT

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Mar 23, 2023, 5:23:14 PM3/23/23

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Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 21:19:39 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:

Iirc, it's one of the worst out there. If you are looking for a pleasant surprise, try Korstick. Like Boventura he's really different in a positive way.

Henk

HT

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Mar 23, 2023, 5:29:36 PM3/23/23

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> Oh I now see that you said a couple of years ago that you don't like it at all. Sorry to raise a bad memory!

No problem at all. It comes with being a Debussy études completist (who lost track of what he has or hasn't).

Henk

Dan Koren

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Mar 23, 2023, 7:07:53 PM3/23/23

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Anne Queffelec

Mandryka

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Mar 25, 2023, 1:45:36 AM3/25/23

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Anyone heard Nina Tichman’s Debussy? (I’ve been enjoying her variations sérieuses and I’m wondering whether to take a punt on anything else from her.)

Dan Koren

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Mar 25, 2023, 2:42:52 AM3/25/23

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Mendelssohn is not a reliable predictor of Debussy.

dk

HT

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Mar 25, 2023, 6:40:51 AM3/25/23

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Op zaterdag 25 maart 2023 om 06:45:36 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:

> Anyone heard Nina Tichman’s Debussy? (I’ve been enjoying her variations sérieuses and I’m wondering whether to take a punt on anything else from her.)

She's not in my top 20 but she can certainly play the études. You should give her a try if you can find the time.

Henk

Dan Koren

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Mar 25, 2023, 6:46:39 AM3/25/23

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Why waste one's time on someone who isn't even in
your top 20? Sounds like damning with faint praise.

dk

HT

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Mar 25, 2023, 6:59:35 AM3/25/23

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Op zaterdag 25 maart 2023 om 11:46:39 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:

Because it wouldn't be a waste of time, if you have the time. Tichman really can play the études. It's just a matter of taste. I probably have 100 versions of the études and only really dislike Moog and Soulima Stravinsky and a few others.

Henk

Mandryka

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Mar 25, 2023, 7:38:40 AM3/25/23

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Cheers Henk. Is it Vol 1, this one?

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8657855--debussy-integrale-loeuvre

HT

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Mar 25, 2023, 8:19:28 AM3/25/23

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Op zaterdag 25 maart 2023 om 12:38:40 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:

> Cheers Henk. Is it Vol 1, this one?
>
> https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8657855--debussy-integrale-loeuvre

Yes, it is:

https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Nina-Tichman/dp/B000025SFV/ref=sr_1_10?crid=I4VNCXQ58EXO&keywords=tichman&qid=1679746638&s=music&sprefix=tichman%2Cpopular%2C74&sr=1-10

Henk

Mandryka

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Mar 25, 2023, 2:10:29 PM3/25/23

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Thanks, I’ve ordered a copy.

I tried the Korstick this afternoon but it seemed a little too intrusive to me, as if I was always aware of a pianist “having ideas.” And the tone didn’t appeal - I expect I’ll get more out of it another day, another mood.

More positively I’ve started to listen to Beroff on Denon, and I’m getting into it. Put it like this - if it were a concert I’d be on my feet shouting “bravo”

HT

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Mar 25, 2023, 2:38:21 PM3/25/23

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Op zaterdag 25 maart 2023 om 19:10:29 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:

Beroff is one of the best. Did you try the early Bavouzet version?

Henk

Graham

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Mar 25, 2023, 3:25:02 PM3/25/23

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I have several versions but my favourite is Peter Frankl.

Mandryka

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Mar 25, 2023, 4:36:29 PM3/25/23

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On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 6:38:21 PM UTC, HT wrote:
Did you try the early Bavouzet version?
>
> Henk

Ah, I see I really am dealing with a completist. I'm going to have to hear that now by hook or by crook.

For all the problems with rmcr, it's still an extraordinary place.

Dan Koren

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Mar 26, 2023, 1:48:25 AM3/26/23

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On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 4:07:53 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> Anne Queffelec

This is it: https://youtu.be/Bx6ufmtUEHs

Enjoy! And stay away from Mitsuko.

dk

Dan Koren

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Mar 26, 2023, 3:05:09 AM3/26/23

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On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 10:48:25 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 4:07:53 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > Anne Queffelec
>
> This is it: https://youtu.be/Bx6ufmtUEHs
>

In better sound:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m23UxpNG5QTKrSHP1l3FFu3fQ2YNk3Zk4

dk

HT

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Mar 26, 2023, 5:41:04 AM3/26/23

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Op zondag 26 maart 2023 om 07:48:25 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:

No reason to stay away from her. Her version is fine, although there are more interesting versions.

Henk

Dan Koren

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Mar 26, 2023, 8:29:06 AM3/26/23

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On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 2:41:04 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
> Op zondag 26 maart 2023 om 07:48:25 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
> > On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 4:07:53 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> > >
> > > Anne Queffelec
> >
> > This is it: https://youtu.be/Bx6ufmtUEHs
> >
> > Enjoy! And stay away from Mitsuko.
>
> No reason to stay away from her. Her version is fine,

Very un-French.

> although there are more interesting versions.

Ahem!

dk

Mandryka

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Mar 26, 2023, 12:43:20 PM3/26/23

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Got it! Will comment later on the differences between Bav I and Bav II. All I can say now is that the earlier seems less about transcendental virtuosity. I’m noticing more humane and tender moments. But I could be wrong of course.

HT

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Mar 26, 2023, 2:27:01 PM3/26/23

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Op zondag 26 maart 2023 om 18:43:20 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:

> Got it! Will comment later on the differences between Bav I and Bav II. All I can say now is that the earlier seems less about transcendental virtuosity. I’m noticing more humane and tender moments. But I could be wrong of course.

Looking forward to your review!

Henk

JohnGavin

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Mar 26, 2023, 4:20:20 PM3/26/23

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Albert Ferber is my favorite Faure pianist, so I was disappointed with his complete Debussy set. This may not have been entirely the pianists’ fault as the sound engineering was not very good on this set.

For the Etudes I’m a DiBonaventura fan and eagerly await the release of Steven Osborne’s recording on Hyperion.

Frank Berger

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Mar 26, 2023, 7:41:40 PM3/26/23

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Never on CD, right?

mINE109

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Mar 26, 2023, 11:09:53 PM3/26/23

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Nope, but the lp is quad.

Dan Koren

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Mar 26, 2023, 11:30:12 PM3/26/23

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On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 1:20:20 PM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
>
> Albert Ferber is my favorite Faure pianist,
>

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

dk

Mandryka

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Apr 1, 2023, 1:04:31 PM4/1/23

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On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 12:19:28 PM UTC, HT wrote:

I think it’s exceptional - thanks for your help locating it.

Mandryka

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Apr 3, 2023, 4:53:34 AM4/3/23

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And Tichman’s Preludes II is outstanding too, if you don’t have it you need it.

Mandryka

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Apr 20, 2023, 1:24:11 PM4/20/23

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The two Bavouzet Etudes recording.

I heard Bavouzet give a concert on Monday, including some Debussy - his transcription of Jeux.

He is a real entertainer, he communicates a sense of thoroughly enjoying what he’s doing, enjoying showing off his technique too. His music making is totally charming and fun.

I think this spirit is caught better in the second recording, which I like more and more each time I hear it. I’m not quite sure what to make of the first.

HT

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Apr 20, 2023, 2:53:47 PM4/20/23

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Op donderdag 20 april 2023 om 19:24:11 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:

I have a slight preference for the first version. There was still much terra incognita. Although I like performances that 'read' like a dissertation (you can 'hear' the footnotes), I also like it when a performer can be surprised by what he is doing.

Henk

Mandryka

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Apr 20, 2023, 4:40:58 PM4/20/23

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Yes I hear that too in the first version, and I appreciate it. It’s just that seeing him in the flesh somehow made me see what the second version is about more clearly, and I find it rather attractive.

I’ve just ordered his early Schumann CD by the way.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000050KJK?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Andy Evans

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Apr 21, 2023, 5:44:16 AM4/21/23

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Nic Hodges, peviously of this newsgroup, used to play the Etudes quite a lot in concert but never recorded them, alas.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/reviews/nicolas-hodges-wigmore-hall-classical-review-pianist-dazzles-with-debussy-9733709.html

HT

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Apr 21, 2023, 10:18:48 AM4/21/23

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Op vrijdag 21 april 2023 om 11:44:16 UTC+2 schreef Andy Evans:

> Nic Hodges, peviously of this newsgroup, used to play the Etudes quite a lot in concert but never recorded them, alas.
>
> https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/reviews/nicolas-hodges-wigmore-hall-classical-review-pianist-dazzles-with-debussy-9733709.html

Thanks for the link. It made me listen to some of NH's video's on YT - and that made me wonder. If, as some believe, music (for example by Mozart) can be a healing factor, what are the effects of nonmusical music on people? Does playing composers like Ferneyhough, or even more nonmusical, for more than 40 hours a week have have a psychological effect?

Henk

Mandryka

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Apr 21, 2023, 4:30:40 PM4/21/23

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Not Ferneyhough, but Richard Barrett, wanted his music to be "illuminating."

To make music out of disembodied abstractions might be a very inter-
esting exercise for a composer to indulge in, but why should anyone
want to listen to it? What has it got to say to them? What has it in
common, if you like, with the listener that is going to be productive of
some kind of empathy - I hesitate to say 'communication', because
then we begin to get into linguistics, and that's a huge grey area as far
as music is concerned... I think the important thing for me in that
respect is that music such as this, which I suppose is 'visionary', 'con-
fessional' and all those things, has a function, which is to be productive
of what we might call illumination of various sorts in a listener. ( Interview with Richard Toop in Contact, no. 32 (Spring 1988))

Dan Koren

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Apr 22, 2023, 2:22:22 AM4/22/23

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Would you please clarify for the audience the meaning of
the phrase "non-musical music"? I ask the question ......

dk

HT

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Apr 22, 2023, 4:42:36 AM4/22/23

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> Would you please clarify for the audience the meaning of
> the phrase "non-musical music"? I ask the question ......

What we see and hear has the appearance of music it isn't. It's an essay about music (often) written in the language of music and performed with traditional means.

Henk

Mandryka

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Apr 22, 2023, 8:28:45 AM4/22/23

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On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 9:42:36 AM UTC+1, HT wrote:
It's an essay about music (often) written in the language of music and performed with traditional means.
>
> Henk

Like Pour les Sonorités opposées -- an essay (etude) in music about decomposing and recomposing all the elements of modern piano -- touch, tempo, dynamics, rhythm, texture, timbre.

HT

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Apr 22, 2023, 9:54:02 AM4/22/23

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Op zaterdag 22 april 2023 om 14:28:45 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:

> On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 9:42:36 AM UTC+1, HT wrote:
> It's an essay about music (often) written in the language of music and performed with traditional means.

> Like Pour les Sonorités opposées -- an essay (etude) in music about decomposing and recomposing all the elements of modern piano -- touch, tempo, dynamics, rhythm, texture, timbre.

<g> Does Pour les Sonorités make a point, or is it the point? The same question could, of course, be asked about Barrett's Track. Not seeing the point suggests (at least in my mind) that Barrett is trying to make one.

Henk

Mandryka

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Apr 22, 2023, 11:02:22 AM4/22/23

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If you've still got it have a look at the essay on the Debussy etudes in Tichman's CD -- a good little essay I think.

HT

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Apr 22, 2023, 5:25:41 PM4/22/23

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Op zaterdag 22 april 2023 om 17:02:22 UTC+2 schreef Mandryka:

> If you've still got it have a look at the essay on the Debussy etudes in Tichman's CD -- a good little essay I think.

Thanks! I have found it and have a look.

Henk

Al Eisner

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Apr 24, 2023, 6:30:00 PM4/24/23

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What are his first and second versions? I've only heard what he did as
part of his complete Debussy on Chandos.
--
Al Eisner

Mandryka

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Apr 25, 2023, 5:30:50 AM4/25/23

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The Chandos is the second. This is the first

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Debussy-12-Etudes/dp/B0008FU8WW

Mandryka

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May 22, 2023, 4:17:21 AM5/22/23

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I’m really starting to enjoy the reflective, poetic, anti-virtuoso, approach of Uchida.

Mandryka

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May 22, 2023, 8:35:38 AM5/22/23

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On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 6:03:18 PM UTC, HT wrote:
> Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 17:59:01 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:
> > I've become really intrigued by this recording. Is there anyone else who makes these etudes sound so beautiful? And makes them sound so consistent with Debussy's style in other music like Preludes II.
> >
> > I just tried to listen to Joseph Moog play the first book, and though it's clearly fabulous pianism, I felt it didn't have the magic of Ferber. Somehow Moog seemed reductive, reducing the music to thrills about speed and piano technique. Ferber makes them sound to me like some of Debussy's best poetry.
> >
> >
> > Here, if you don't know it.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk_bU7nlX2c&ab_channel=OnTheTopofDamavandforever
> Moog's version of the Debussy études is one of the least interesting I know. Ferber is good but not one of my favourites.
>
> Henk

And having just played Ferber’s Bk2 again I still think it is the most beautiful Bk 2 I have ever heard.

I also tried to listen to Ericourt, but couldn’t get into it at all! It just seemed glib, sketchy.

Dan Koren

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May 22, 2023, 8:27:19 PM5/22/23

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On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 5:35:38 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
>
> And having just played Ferber’s Bk2 again I still
> think it is the most beautiful Bk 2 I have ever heard.

Underpowered and undermotivated.
These are Etudes, not Nocturnes.

dk

Dan Koren

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May 22, 2023, 8:29:33 PM5/22/23

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On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 1:17:21 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
>
> I’m really starting to enjoy the reflective,
> poetic, anti-virtuoso, approach of Uchida.

You must have meant anti-poetic. Also
note these are Etudes, "anti-virtuosic"
approaches do not work.

Mme Uchida is a real sewing machine.

dk

Mandryka

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May 22, 2023, 10:50:12 PM5/22/23

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No. Beautiful.

Mandryka

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May 22, 2023, 10:50:37 PM5/22/23

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No. Uchida’s approach works.

Message has been deleted

Dan Koren

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May 23, 2023, 2:56:20 AM5/23/23

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> No. Uchida’s approach works.

If you say so .... she is still
just another seamstress.

dk

Message has been deleted

Mandryka

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Aug 11, 2023, 4:31:30 AM8/11/23

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Very much enjoying Bavouzet I this morning - thanks Henk for making me aware of it.