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Aaron Rosand's feud with Isaac Stern
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pgaron
Jul 8, 2014, 11:40:50 AM7/8/14
to
Insider Gossip Alert: In this article, the violinist Aaron Rosand accuses Isaac Stern of sabotaging his career:
http://tinyurl.com/pduxzws
pgaron
http://tinyurl.com/pduxzws
pgaron
arri bachrach
Jul 8, 2014, 12:01:28 PM7/8/14
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AB
Terry
Jul 8, 2014, 8:23:38 PM7/8/14
to
ljk...@aol.com
Jul 8, 2014, 9:01:13 PM7/8/14
to
hiker_rs
Jul 9, 2014, 10:48:41 AM7/9/14
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tomdeacon
Jul 9, 2014, 11:11:57 AM7/9/14
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He also prevented Ida Haendel from CH for decades.
Ambition, slight talent, endless support from his "audience", and his
determination to rescue CH from the wrecker should not blind us from the
facts regarding Mr. Stern?
I doubt, however, that any reevaluation of his stature will be forthcoming.
He managed to touch all the buttons of power.
--
TD
JohnGavin
Jul 9, 2014, 11:44:18 AM7/9/14
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Herman
Jul 9, 2014, 12:35:20 PM7/9/14
to
a saddening story with a lot of nasty ramifications.
one would like to know where this bunch of fellow CBS / Sony artists with whom Stern often recorded or performed stand on this exclusionary business.
Interesting how Stern liked to promote himself by acting like this really generous guy who helped younger artists - preferably on camera - while exercizing a kind of scorched-earth strategy when it concerned coevals who weren't part of his circle.
one would like to know where this bunch of fellow CBS / Sony artists with whom Stern often recorded or performed stand on this exclusionary business.
Interesting how Stern liked to promote himself by acting like this really generous guy who helped younger artists - preferably on camera - while exercizing a kind of scorched-earth strategy when it concerned coevals who weren't part of his circle.
tomdeacon
Jul 9, 2014, 1:00:58 PM7/9/14
to
Bronfman, for example, deserves to be heard over a dozen times each year in
New York? He paid his dues with IS. All those dreary Mozart sonatas for
Sony! ARGH!!!
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 9, 2014, 1:00:59 PM7/9/14
to
Ever seen the WSS video?
--
TD
David Fox
Jul 9, 2014, 1:16:29 PM7/9/14
to
all good or all bad. Stories, some of them first-hand, of his
questionable behavior have filled RMCR threads for decades. Check the
archives.
As for his generosity, it's also worth noting that quite often when he
pegged a young musician as a potential beneficiary, he'd place a call to
Freddy Mann to actually write the checks. So yes,
he still gets credit for channeling good fortune in a worthy direction
that may not have happened without his active involvement, but it often
wasn't his money or resources he was generous with. To the public,
however, it always appeared that the generosity flowed from Stern, and
Stern always made sure to reap the future political capital of his
"generosity."
As for Bernstein's culpability if the above story were true - Bernstein
learned to be a bit of a politician pragmatist from the early 1950's
onward. When he failed to win the BSO seat despite his undeniable
talent, he learned that he had to get better at the game if he ever
hoped to hold the directorship of a major orchestra. He knew making an
enemy of Stern would come with enormous cost, especially in NYC. Also,
his own orchestra members would lose out on session fees if he decided
to "take the high road."
On the other side of the scale, I am always dubious of performers that
claim "so-and-so ruined my career." Yes, a generous colleague can give
a boost and a powerful spiteful one can occasionally throw a curveball,
but talent usually wins out. Many artists are somewhat high-strung and
egotistical and somewhat quick to blame external forces or situations
when things don't work out as they'd like. I don't know Aaron Rosand
personally so I can't judge his character. He never built a huge career
in Europe either. I've heard several of his recordings and while he's a
talented musician, I don't put him in the first-tier of his
contemporaries, including Isaac Stern in his prime (the violinist, not
the person).
DF
arri bachrach
Jul 9, 2014, 1:41:44 PM7/9/14
to
AB
arri bachrach
Jul 9, 2014, 1:47:09 PM7/9/14
to
On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 11:11:57 AM UTC-4, tomdeacon wrote:
AB
William Sommerwerck
Jul 9, 2014, 3:34:00 PM7/9/14
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Is it correct to say that you can't blackmail people who won't let themselves
be blackmailed?
Am I being unduly na�ve in suggesting that Bernstein could simply have said
NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
be blackmailed?
Am I being unduly na�ve in suggesting that Bernstein could simply have said
NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
David Fox
Jul 9, 2014, 3:50:55 PM7/9/14
to
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Is it correct to say that you can't blackmail people who won't let
> themselves be blackmailed?
>
> Am I being unduly naïve in suggesting that Bernstein could simply have
> Is it correct to say that you can't blackmail people who won't let
> themselves be blackmailed?
>
> said NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
Sure, Bernstein could have done it, but at what cost? He was very early on
his NYP tenure and they were still playing all of their concerts at
Carnegie Hall. He was a junior artist starting a lucrative recording
contract on a label which Stern was an established senior artist. Plus
Stern was very, very tied in with key constituent groups that Bernstein
also needed to keep happy in NY.
So could he have? Yes, but it would have been enormously risky and frankly,
politically naive.
DF
tomdeacon
Jul 9, 2014, 5:08:52 PM7/9/14
to
David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Is it correct to say that you can't blackmail people who won't let
>> themselves be blackmailed?
>>
>> Am I being unduly naïve in suggesting that Bernstein could simply have
>> said NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
>
> Sure, Bernstein could have done it, but at what cost? He was very early on
> his NYP tenure and they were still playing all of their concerts at
> Carnegie Hall. He was a junior artist starting a lucrative recording
> contract on a label which Stern was an established senior artist. Plus
> Stern was very, very tied in with key constituent groups that Bernstein
> also needed to keep happy in NY.
Is that what is commonly referred to as the Jewish mafia?
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Is it correct to say that you can't blackmail people who won't let
>> themselves be blackmailed?
>>
>> Am I being unduly naïve in suggesting that Bernstein could simply have
>> said NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
>
> Sure, Bernstein could have done it, but at what cost? He was very early on
> his NYP tenure and they were still playing all of their concerts at
> Carnegie Hall. He was a junior artist starting a lucrative recording
> contract on a label which Stern was an established senior artist. Plus
> Stern was very, very tied in with key constituent groups that Bernstein
> also needed to keep happy in NY.
> So could he have? Yes, but it would have been enormously risky and frankly,
> politically naive.
Israel bombs the shit out of the residents of Gaza.
A turkey shoot.
One really prays that Iran manages to get the bomb, perhaps the same way
Israel did, by stealing it.
North Korea to the rescue?
What Israel needs is a REAL enemy fully armed to do it irreparable damage.
Then perhaps they will deoccupy the land they stole from the Palestinians.
MAD is a very nice, neat, tidy solution.
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 9, 2014, 5:08:52 PM7/9/14
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--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 9, 2014, 5:08:53 PM7/9/14
to
stories "if the story were true", then you come in "on the other hand.
No, you can't get away with that game.
Clearly you disbelieve the stories, make excuses, of a sort, for IS and LB,
then come in with the clincher: AR wasn't much good anyway.
Hahahahaha
Sorry, some of us were not born yesterday. We have witnessed IS at the
height df his sloppy career. And that was one long sloppy career. Proof?
Just listen to the Hess Stern recital from 1958. Dame Myra musty have been
horrified by the bad intonation, sloppy musicianship.
In my presence Gilels walked out of a rehearsal IS was conducting in
Toronto in 1984. To quote EG: "Isaac no practise!"
--
TD
wkasimer
Jul 9, 2014, 6:00:35 PM7/9/14
to
On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 5:08:52 PM UTC-4, tomdeacon wrote:
> Naïveté continues apace as the USA continues to turn a blind eye while Israel bombs the shit out of the residents of Gaza. A turkey shoot. <
Tom, if you have an iPhone, you need to download this app:
> Naïveté continues apace as the USA continues to turn a blind eye while Israel bombs the shit out of the residents of Gaza. A turkey shoot. <
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/red-alert-israel/id873642097?mt=8
Just in case you haven't noticed the bombardment coming from Gaza, this app sends an alert every time a missile is fired into Israel, along with the name of the target. During the day in Israel, I've been receiving 2-6 alerts per hour.
Bill
tomdeacon
Jul 9, 2014, 6:12:26 PM7/9/14
to
Or to know that Israel has failed for over 65 years to make peace with its
neighbours. Or, since the wars, to retreat from the "conquered
territories". Or, to stop the settlements, which grow apace. Any wonder
that the Palestinians do what they can to remind the Israelis that they
haven't gone anywhere.
When someone mentions the pathetic attempts by Hamas to raise the level of
awareness of their plight, I know immediately that they are either Jewish,
and therefore are de facto supporters of Israel come what may, or somehow
blind to the first causes of this war, which threatens to take away the
record established centuries ago b ythe 100 year War.
Netanyahoo sheds tears when thugs burn the Palestinian boy alive, then lobs
more rockets.
Turkey shoot. Another holocaust, but this time the Israelis are manning the
camps.
--
TD
Frank Berger
Jul 9, 2014, 7:41:59 PM7/9/14
to
On 7/9/2014 6:00 PM, wkasimer wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 5:08:52 PM UTC-4, tomdeacon wrote:
>
>> Na�vet� continues apace as the USA continues to turn a blind eye while Israel bombs the shit out of the residents of Gaza. A turkey shoot. <
> On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 5:08:52 PM UTC-4, tomdeacon wrote:
>
>
> Tom, if you have an iPhone, you need to download this app:
>
> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/red-alert-israel/id873642097?mt=8
>
> Just in case you haven't noticed the bombardment coming from Gaza, this app sends an alert every time a missile is fired into Israel, along with the name of the target. During the day in Israel, I've been receiving 2-6 alerts per hour.
>
> Bill
>
Deacon figures that those annoying little rockets from Gaza rarely hit
> Tom, if you have an iPhone, you need to download this app:
>
> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/red-alert-israel/id873642097?mt=8
>
> Just in case you haven't noticed the bombardment coming from Gaza, this app sends an alert every time a missile is fired into Israel, along with the name of the target. During the day in Israel, I've been receiving 2-6 alerts per hour.
>
> Bill
>
anything, so Israel's response is disproportional (traumatized, though
perhaps physically uninjured, Israelis are rarely shown on TV, so they
don't exist).
Deacon doesn't care that the Geneva Conventions identify precisely who's
committing the war crimes here:
One against the Palestinans: Targeting civilians
Two against the Palestinians: waging war from densely populated
civilian population centers.
Israel's response of targeting the terrorists is perfectly legal under
the Geneva Conventions and is the only sane response of a government
responsible (and answerable in elections) to its people.
But Deacon doesn't care about any of that since it's only Jews they're
firing rockets at.
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com
Bob Harper
Jul 9, 2014, 7:57:20 PM7/9/14
to
overcome his rational processes. Israel is not guiltless in l'affaire
Palestine, but in order to get to a solution, you need to have two
parties willing to accept each others existence. I don't see that we
have that in this case.
(BTW, I observed to a Dominican friend of mine that the best solution
would be for all the residents to become Christians. He agreed that
would solve the problem immeditately. But I deal here in eschatology,
not practical politics.)
Bob Harper
Willem Orange
Jul 9, 2014, 8:22:09 PM7/9/14
to
Frank Berger
Jul 9, 2014, 8:39:33 PM7/9/14
to
pacificts, or zombies, or secular socialists. Probably any of those
would achive peace as well.
Frank Berger
Jul 9, 2014, 8:49:36 PM7/9/14
to
reactor. Isn't it simply a matter of time before they have rockets good
enough to actually hit it, and any other target in Israel?
I read an interesting analysis that took the position that it would
violate international law to negotiate with terrorists:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15283#.U73ijbGc0Ss
David Fox
Jul 9, 2014, 9:04:43 PM7/9/14
to
all of Rosand's stories are true (and neither you nor I have any way of
knowing at this point), I still don't buy into the notion that Stern was
the anti-gravitational force that held back his career. Rosand has had a
very long, solid career as a professional violinist and he's had plenty of
opportunity to put his art before the public. I believe that by in large
the public has weighed in fairly in his case. If Rosand had the talent of
an Oistrakh, a Menuhin, or a Milstein, or even a Stern, he would have fared
better as did they all. Musicians can get derailed for all sorts of
reasons but if they have long enough careers, water generally reaches it's
level.
DF
David Fox
Jul 9, 2014, 9:20:21 PM7/9/14
to
tomdeacon <david...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Is it correct to say that you can't blackmail people who won't let
>>> themselves be blackmailed?
>>>
>>> Am I being unduly naïve in suggesting that Bernstein could simply have
>>> said NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
>>
>> Sure, Bernstein could have done it, but at what cost? He was very early on
>> his NYP tenure and they were still playing all of their concerts at
>> Carnegie Hall. He was a junior artist starting a lucrative recording
>> contract on a label which Stern was an established senior artist. Plus
>> Stern was very, very tied in with key constituent groups that Bernstein
>> also needed to keep happy in NY.
>
> Is that what is commonly referred to as the Jewish mafia?
> ( bizarre geopolitical blather deleted)
> David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Is it correct to say that you can't blackmail people who won't let
>>> themselves be blackmailed?
>>>
>>> Am I being unduly naïve in suggesting that Bernstein could simply have
>>> said NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
>>
>> Sure, Bernstein could have done it, but at what cost? He was very early on
>> his NYP tenure and they were still playing all of their concerts at
>> Carnegie Hall. He was a junior artist starting a lucrative recording
>> contract on a label which Stern was an established senior artist. Plus
>> Stern was very, very tied in with key constituent groups that Bernstein
>> also needed to keep happy in NY.
>
> Is that what is commonly referred to as the Jewish mafia?
>
Hardly. Stern was well-connected with the New York wealth that funded all
of the major musical institutions through his Carnegie Hall campaign. The
Rockefeller's, the Astors, etc were not Jewish and they were the real
movers and shakers of that era in NYC. It was their intercedence and their
(particularly David Rockefeller's) willingness to support BOTH the new
Lincoln Center project AND Carnegie Hall that saved that place. Once he set
the example, all of the old (and largely non-Jewish) money followed suit.
If it weren't for Rockefeller's example, Stern would most probably have
failed. History should have given him at least as much credit as Stern but
the mythology we all know it is "Isaac Stern saved Carnegie Hall." Still
think I''me pro-Stern?
Nice try hijacking the thread though. Troll away. Are you going to quote
the Articles of Zion next?
DF
Willem Orange
Jul 9, 2014, 9:34:53 PM7/9/14
to
Frank Berger
Jul 9, 2014, 9:48:13 PM7/9/14
to
On 7/9/2014 9:34 PM, Willem Orange wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 9:20:21 PM UTC-4, David Fox wrote:
>> tomdeacon <david...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Is it correct to say that you can't blackmail people who won't let
>>
>>>>> themselves be blackmailed?
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> Am I being unduly na�ve in suggesting that Bernstein could simply have
> On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 9:20:21 PM UTC-4, David Fox wrote:
>> tomdeacon <david...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Is it correct to say that you can't blackmail people who won't let
>>
>>>>> themselves be blackmailed?
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>>> said NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Sure, Bernstein could have done it, but at what cost? He was very early on
>>
>>>> his NYP tenure and they were still playing all of their concerts at
>>
>>>> Carnegie Hall. He was a junior artist starting a lucrative recording
>>
>>>> contract on a label which Stern was an established senior artist. Plus
>>
>>>> Stern was very, very tied in with key constituent groups that Bernstein
>>
>>>> also needed to keep happy in NY.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Is that what is commonly referred to as the Jewish mafia?
>>
>>> ( bizarre geopolitical blather deleted)
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hardly. Stern was well-connected with the New York wealth that funded all
>>
>> of the major musical institutions through his Carnegie Hall campaign. The
>>
>> Rockefeller's, the Astors, etc were not Jewish and they were the real
>>
>> movers and shakers of that era in NYC. It was their intercedence and their
>>
>> (particularly David Rockefeller's) willingness to support BOTH the new
>>
>> Lincoln Center project AND Carnegie Hall that saved that place. Once he set
>>
>> the example, all of the old (and largely non-Jewish) money followed suit.
>>
>> If it weren't for Rockefeller's example, Stern would most probably have
>>
>> failed. History should have given him at least as much credit as Stern but
>>
>> the mythology we all know it is "Isaac Stern saved Carnegie Hall." Still
>>
>> think I''me pro-Stern?
>>
>>
>>
>> Nice try hijacking the thread though. Troll away. Are you going to quote
>>
>> the Articles of Zion next?
>>
>>
>>
>> DF
>
> He knows them by heart!!!!!!
>
He wrote them!
>>>>> said NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>> Sure, Bernstein could have done it, but at what cost? He was very early on
>>
>>>> his NYP tenure and they were still playing all of their concerts at
>>
>>>> Carnegie Hall. He was a junior artist starting a lucrative recording
>>
>>>> contract on a label which Stern was an established senior artist. Plus
>>
>>>> Stern was very, very tied in with key constituent groups that Bernstein
>>
>>>> also needed to keep happy in NY.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Is that what is commonly referred to as the Jewish mafia?
>>
>>> ( bizarre geopolitical blather deleted)
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hardly. Stern was well-connected with the New York wealth that funded all
>>
>> of the major musical institutions through his Carnegie Hall campaign. The
>>
>> Rockefeller's, the Astors, etc were not Jewish and they were the real
>>
>> movers and shakers of that era in NYC. It was their intercedence and their
>>
>> (particularly David Rockefeller's) willingness to support BOTH the new
>>
>> Lincoln Center project AND Carnegie Hall that saved that place. Once he set
>>
>> the example, all of the old (and largely non-Jewish) money followed suit.
>>
>> If it weren't for Rockefeller's example, Stern would most probably have
>>
>> failed. History should have given him at least as much credit as Stern but
>>
>> the mythology we all know it is "Isaac Stern saved Carnegie Hall." Still
>>
>> think I''me pro-Stern?
>>
>>
>>
>> Nice try hijacking the thread though. Troll away. Are you going to quote
>>
>> the Articles of Zion next?
>>
>>
>>
>> DF
>
> He knows them by heart!!!!!!
>
Willem Orange
Jul 9, 2014, 10:16:30 PM7/9/14
to
Bob Harper
Jul 9, 2014, 10:36:08 PM7/9/14
to
Bob Harper
William Sommerwerck
Jul 10, 2014, 8:38:41 AM7/10/14
to
"David Fox" wrote in message
news:1786647937426646499.8874...@news.albasani.net...
> Even if all of Rosand's stories are true (and neither you nor I have
> any way of knowing at this point), I still don't buy into the notion
> that Stern was the anti-gravitational force that held back his career.
So -- assuming that Rosand /was/ a less-than-first-class violinist -- how does
that justify Stern doing what he (presumably) did?
news:1786647937426646499.8874...@news.albasani.net...
> Even if all of Rosand's stories are true (and neither you nor I have
> any way of knowing at this point), I still don't buy into the notion
> that Stern was the anti-gravitational force that held back his career.
that justify Stern doing what he (presumably) did?
Ricardo Jimenez
Jul 10, 2014, 8:56:36 AM7/10/14
to
On Wed, 09 Jul 2014 19:41:59 -0400, Frank Berger
<frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Deacon figures that those annoying little rockets from Gaza rarely hit
>anything, so Israel's response is disproportional (traumatized, though
>perhaps physically uninjured, Israelis are rarely shown on TV, so they
>don't exist).
>
>Deacon doesn't care that the Geneva Conventions identify precisely who's
>committing the war crimes here:
Getting to this subject, from a discussion of Isaac Stern's
<frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Deacon figures that those annoying little rockets from Gaza rarely hit
>anything, so Israel's response is disproportional (traumatized, though
>perhaps physically uninjured, Israelis are rarely shown on TV, so they
>don't exist).
>
>Deacon doesn't care that the Geneva Conventions identify precisely who's
>committing the war crimes here:
machinations against other violinists, was an obvious exercise in
trollery. Those who have taken the bait are just as guilty as the
provocateur.
Frank Berger
Jul 10, 2014, 9:11:21 AM7/10/14
to
Terry
Jul 10, 2014, 9:34:15 AM7/10/14
to
On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 11:01:13 AM UTC+10, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Stern, I assume, if only because of the "was." Rosand is still with us.
From what I hear, as well as "saving" Carnegie Hall, Stern was selfish and vindictive about who got to play there, and it went on for years.
> On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 7:23:38 PM UTC-5, Terry wrote:
>
> > In article <72f851d1-f189-453b...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> >
>
> > arri bachrach <abach...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
>
>
> > In article <72f851d1-f189-453b...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> >
>
> > arri bachrach <abach...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
>
> > > > http://tinyurl.com/pduxzws
> pgaron
>
> > > by all accounts he was a nasty but brilliant man.
>
>
> > > AB
>
>
> > Who?
> pgaron
>
> > > by all accounts he was a nasty but brilliant man.
>
>
> > > AB
>
>
>
> Stern, I assume, if only because of the "was." Rosand is still with us.
From what I hear, as well as "saving" Carnegie Hall, Stern was selfish and vindictive about who got to play there, and it went on for years.
Terry
Jul 10, 2014, 9:36:33 AM7/10/14
to
JohnGavin
Jul 10, 2014, 10:03:29 AM7/10/14
to
If you read the numerous testimonies under the article, the large consensus against Stern seems pretty damning - including things written by Earl Wild in his autobiography, and students of Erick Friedman as well. The complaints against Stern also have a consistency to support them.
I also find it pretty deplorable to cast doubts on Aaron Rosand's honesty. He seems to have practiced admirable restraint regarding Stern for most of his professional life. I can't think of any possible reason for his to fabricate stories about Stern at this late date.
But what would be productive out of these revelations is to learn from them, and prevent anyone from assuming this sort of position of power over others.
I also find it pretty deplorable to cast doubts on Aaron Rosand's honesty. He seems to have practiced admirable restraint regarding Stern for most of his professional life. I can't think of any possible reason for his to fabricate stories about Stern at this late date.
But what would be productive out of these revelations is to learn from them, and prevent anyone from assuming this sort of position of power over others.
David Fox
Jul 10, 2014, 10:22:38 AM7/10/14
to
dubious that Isaac Stern's actions in if themselves were the key
determining factors in the success or lack thereof in Rosand's career.
DF
David Fox
Jul 10, 2014, 10:35:19 AM7/10/14
to
just making the point that when somebody recounts a negative story about
somebody who's dead, we are only hearing one side. That's just a fact.
Also, Stern's alleged slights of Rosand have been far from secret for
decades, and IIRC Rosand has not exactly been tight-lipped about them. Do a
Google search. Not that I blame him for speaking out on behalf of himself -
that's not my point. I just don't necessarily buy into the implied
conclusion - that Rosand was cheated out of a larger career by Isaac Stern.
Cheated out of some engagements or recordings - yes. Cheated out of a
career for a violinist who has been active across the world for over 60
years? No.
DF
Frank Berger
Jul 10, 2014, 10:41:56 AM7/10/14
to
much pride in precise thinking and analysis, you sure were sloppy there,
attributing views to David that he doesn't have. Do you see the
similarity of your question to "When did you stop beating your wife?"
David Fox
Jul 10, 2014, 11:24:24 AM7/10/14
to
on-topic RMCR fare. As I wrote above, check the archives. There are many
threads on the matter over the years including several first-hand accounts.
DF
William Sommerwerck
Jul 10, 2014, 11:31:19 AM7/10/14
to
"Frank Berger" wrote in message
news:NM2dnSTq962qOyPO...@supernews.com...
consider how the reader is likely to interpret his remark. Point taken.
I meant "justify" /from Stern's point of view/. Stern apparently did not have
a high opinion of Rosand's talent. So why would he bother to try to sabotage a
career not likely to go anywhere, other than out of simple pettiness?
Some of Rosand's tales can easily be verified. Given that he's nearly 90, it's
hard to blame him for (to put it politely) wanting to set the record straight.
If you're not the success you hoped to be, and someone had kept you from
recording an important premiere, or blocked your purchase of a fine violin...
is it irrational to judge these events as having damaged your career?
news:NM2dnSTq962qOyPO...@supernews.com...
On 7/10/2014 8:38 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "David Fox" wrote in message
> news:1786647937426646499.8874...@news.albasani.net...
>>> Even if all of Rosand's stories are true (and neither you nor I have
>>> any way of knowing at this point), I still don't buy into the notion
>>> that Stern was the anti-gravitational force that held back his career.
>> So -- assuming that Rosand /was/ a less-than-first-class violinist --
>> how does that justify Stern doing what he (presumably) did?
> I see David answered you already. Boy, Bill, for someone who takes so much
> pride in precise thinking and analysis, you sure were sloppy there,
> attributing views to David that he doesn't have. Do you see the similarity
> of your question to "When did you stop beating your wife?"
Whoops. This is an excellent example of the writer not taking the time to
> "David Fox" wrote in message
> news:1786647937426646499.8874...@news.albasani.net...
>>> Even if all of Rosand's stories are true (and neither you nor I have
>>> any way of knowing at this point), I still don't buy into the notion
>>> that Stern was the anti-gravitational force that held back his career.
>> So -- assuming that Rosand /was/ a less-than-first-class violinist --
>> how does that justify Stern doing what he (presumably) did?
> I see David answered you already. Boy, Bill, for someone who takes so much
> pride in precise thinking and analysis, you sure were sloppy there,
> attributing views to David that he doesn't have. Do you see the similarity
> of your question to "When did you stop beating your wife?"
consider how the reader is likely to interpret his remark. Point taken.
I meant "justify" /from Stern's point of view/. Stern apparently did not have
a high opinion of Rosand's talent. So why would he bother to try to sabotage a
career not likely to go anywhere, other than out of simple pettiness?
Some of Rosand's tales can easily be verified. Given that he's nearly 90, it's
hard to blame him for (to put it politely) wanting to set the record straight.
If you're not the success you hoped to be, and someone had kept you from
recording an important premiere, or blocked your purchase of a fine violin...
is it irrational to judge these events as having damaged your career?
William Sommerwerck
Jul 10, 2014, 11:39:05 AM7/10/14
to
"JohnGavin" wrote in message
news:101093b1-31a5-4daf...@googlegroups.com...
> But what would be productive out of these revelations is to learn
> from them, and prevent anyone from assuming this sort of position
> of power over others.
But human beings are social animals, and if Isaac Stern was gifted at
manipulating his relationships with people to get what he wanted -- what's to
be done about it?
The types of interaction that allow and even encourage such manipulation are
so much a part of the "social sea" we swim, that we tend not to recognize
them, or tolerate them even when pointed out.
news:101093b1-31a5-4daf...@googlegroups.com...
> But what would be productive out of these revelations is to learn
> from them, and prevent anyone from assuming this sort of position
> of power over others.
manipulating his relationships with people to get what he wanted -- what's to
be done about it?
The types of interaction that allow and even encourage such manipulation are
so much a part of the "social sea" we swim, that we tend not to recognize
them, or tolerate them even when pointed out.
David Fox
Jul 10, 2014, 11:39:25 AM7/10/14
to
rights to chronicle all facets of his life story. I just don't agree with
the conclusion (and I'm not even sure it's his) that Stern killed what
otherwise would have been an "A-list" career.
DF
William Sommerwerck
Jul 10, 2014, 11:43:47 AM7/10/14
to
"David Fox" wrote in message
news:1217141967426699392.3752...@news.albasani.net...
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Some of Rosand's tales can easily be verified. Given that he's nearly 90,
>> it's hard to blame him for (to put it politely) wanting to set the record
>> straight. If you're not the success you hoped to be, and someone had kept
>> you from recording an important premiere, or blocked your purchase of a
>> fine violin... is it irrational to judge these events as having damaged
>> your
>> career?
> It's not irrational of him and I don't judge him. He's fully within his
> rights to chronicle all facets of his life story. I just don't agree with
> the conclusion (and I'm not even sure it's his) that Stern killed what
> otherwise would have been an "A-list" career.
The issue is further clouded by the fact that great performers are sometimes
>> Some of Rosand's tales can easily be verified. Given that he's nearly 90,
>> it's hard to blame him for (to put it politely) wanting to set the record
>> straight. If you're not the success you hoped to be, and someone had kept
>> you from recording an important premiere, or blocked your purchase of a
>> fine violin... is it irrational to judge these events as having damaged
>> your
>> career?
> It's not irrational of him and I don't judge him. He's fully within his
> rights to chronicle all facets of his life story. I just don't agree with
> the conclusion (and I'm not even sure it's his) that Stern killed what
> otherwise would have been an "A-list" career.
overlooked by the public, while mediocre ones become popular. This is made
worse by the fact that record companies are likely to promote popular
performers at the expense of equally worthy but less-popular ones.
Frank Berger
Jul 10, 2014, 12:29:24 PM7/10/14
to
something like intelligent, unbiased analysis would lead to a correct
conclusion? Though I admire her in many ways, I can't agree with that.
We humans are too imperfect and there are too many unknown variables
for that to be true.
David Fox
Jul 10, 2014, 12:37:44 PM7/10/14
to
most circumstances should take ownership for their own success or lack
thereof, especially if we are talking about not one particular episode
but a life's work over an extended period of time through a variety of
settings and circumstances. Exceptions abound, obviously, but I tend to
lose respect for people who blame.
DF
Frank Berger
Jul 10, 2014, 12:46:18 PM7/10/14
to
is right.
O
Jul 10, 2014, 12:50:24 PM7/10/14
to
In article
<1217141967426699392.3752...@news.albasani.net>,
it would be more like Stern impeded his potential to have an "A-list"
career. But even more so, I think he's saying that we should not
remember Stern as a better person than he really was.
-Owen
<1217141967426699392.3752...@news.albasani.net>,
David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> It's not irrational of him and I don't judge him. He's fully within his
> rights to chronicle all facets of his life story. I just don't agree with
> the conclusion (and I'm not even sure it's his) that Stern killed what
> otherwise would have been an "A-list" career.
I don't think Rosand would agree with the conclusion either. I think
>
> It's not irrational of him and I don't judge him. He's fully within his
> rights to chronicle all facets of his life story. I just don't agree with
> the conclusion (and I'm not even sure it's his) that Stern killed what
> otherwise would have been an "A-list" career.
it would be more like Stern impeded his potential to have an "A-list"
career. But even more so, I think he's saying that we should not
remember Stern as a better person than he really was.
-Owen
O
Jul 10, 2014, 12:51:50 PM7/10/14
to
In article
<1635118256426698561.9626...@news.albasani.net>,
I don't believe the Stern discussion was what Ricardo was objecting to,
but the Israeli-Palestinian discussion which spawned from it.
-Owen
<1635118256426698561.9626...@news.albasani.net>,
but the Israeli-Palestinian discussion which spawned from it.
-Owen
David Fox
Jul 10, 2014, 1:03:42 PM7/10/14
to
his former strongholds.
DF
O
Jul 10, 2014, 1:09:59 PM7/10/14
to
In article <lpmh1f$9ph$1...@news.albasani.net>, David Fox
I think there's always a danger of that. Lots of pretty nasty people
have been canonized posthumously by people who don't look at the record
because of "respect for the dead."
-Owen, "But he saved Carnegie Hall!"
have been canonized posthumously by people who don't look at the record
because of "respect for the dead."
-Owen, "But he saved Carnegie Hall!"
Herman
Jul 10, 2014, 1:28:22 PM7/10/14
to
On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:37:44 PM UTC+2, David Fox wrote:
> I believe that most people in
>
> most circumstances should take ownership for their own success or lack
>
> thereof, especially if we are talking about not one particular episode
>
> but a life's work over an extended period of time through a variety of
>
> settings and circumstances. Exceptions abound, obviously, but I tend to
>
> lose respect for people who blame.
Although I tend to think that way too, it can come perilously close to blame the victim, as in this case.
> I believe that most people in
>
> most circumstances should take ownership for their own success or lack
>
> thereof, especially if we are talking about not one particular episode
>
> but a life's work over an extended period of time through a variety of
>
> settings and circumstances. Exceptions abound, obviously, but I tend to
>
> lose respect for people who blame.
Your notion that talent will come out and be rewarded no matter what adversity just doesn't bear a reality check, and especially not in Rosand's case, in the US in the Fifties, where one is looking at an extremily small and tilted playing field, where the guys with the major recording contracts and the good media skills (i.e. bullshitting on camera) pretty much exterminated the competition, thanks to a culturally insecure audience (and media).
>
>
>
> DF
tomdeacon
Jul 10, 2014, 1:41:56 PM7/10/14
to
Frank Berger <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/9/2014 6:00 PM, wkasimer wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 5:08:52 PM UTC-4, tomdeacon wrote:
>>
>>> Naïveté continues apace as the USA continues to turn a blind eye while
> On 7/9/2014 6:00 PM, wkasimer wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 5:08:52 PM UTC-4, tomdeacon wrote:
>>
>>> Israel bombs the shit out of the residents of Gaza. A turkey shoot. <
>>
>> Tom, if you have an iPhone, you need to download this app:
>>
>> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/red-alert-israel/id873642097?mt=8
>>
>> Just in case you haven't noticed the bombardment coming from Gaza, this
>> app sends an alert every time a missile is fired into Israel, along with
>> the name of the target. During the day in Israel, I've been receiving
>> 2-6 alerts per hour.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>
>
>>
>> Tom, if you have an iPhone, you need to download this app:
>>
>> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/red-alert-israel/id873642097?mt=8
>>
>> Just in case you haven't noticed the bombardment coming from Gaza, this
>> app sends an alert every time a missile is fired into Israel, along with
>> the name of the target. During the day in Israel, I've been receiving
>> 2-6 alerts per hour.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>
>
> Deacon figures that those annoying little rockets from Gaza rarely hit
> anything, so Israel's response is disproportional (traumatized, though
> perhaps physically uninjured, Israelis are rarely shown on TV, so they don't exist).
>
> Deacon doesn't care that the Geneva Conventions identify precisely who's
> committing the war crimes here:
>
> anything, so Israel's response is disproportional (traumatized, though
> perhaps physically uninjured, Israelis are rarely shown on TV, so they don't exist).
>
> Deacon doesn't care that the Geneva Conventions identify precisely who's
> committing the war crimes here:
>
> One against the Palestinans: Targeting civilians
> Two against the Palestinians: waging war from densely populated civilian
> population centers.
>
> Israel's response of targeting the terrorists is perfectly legal under
> the Geneva Conventions and is the only sane response of a government
> responsible (and answerable in elections) to its people.
>
> But Deacon doesn't care about any of that since it's only Jews they're firing rockets at.
You want to talk law?
> Two against the Palestinians: waging war from densely populated civilian
> population centers.
>
> Israel's response of targeting the terrorists is perfectly legal under
> the Geneva Conventions and is the only sane response of a government
> responsible (and answerable in elections) to its people.
>
> But Deacon doesn't care about any of that since it's only Jews they're firing rockets at.
There are, so far at least, 45 resolutions of the United Nations Human
Rights Council, that as of 2013. We can expect more.
The pathetic missiles lobbed at Israel by the Palestinians in protest of
these violations are met by Israel's Iron Dome anti missile defense network
funded by the USA, which has the gall to think of itself as an honest
broker in the dispute.
The Palestinians are defenceless, of course, so women and children continue
to die.
Another holocaust in the making. With this difference: in WWII the world
did not know of the extermination of the Jews by the Nazis. Here the world
looks on with seeming approval, or at least indifference.
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 10, 2014, 1:54:30 PM7/10/14
to
And strange as it may seem, still does.
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 10, 2014, 1:54:31 PM7/10/14
to
Frank Berger <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/9/2014 9:34 PM, Willem Orange wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 9:20:21 PM UTC-4, David Fox wrote:
>>> tomdeacon <david...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> his NYP tenure and they were still playing all of their concerts at
>>>
>>>>> Carnegie Hall. He was a junior artist starting a lucrative recording
>>>
>>>>> contract on a label which Stern was an established senior artist. Plus
>>>
>>>>> Stern was very, very tied in with key constituent groups that Bernstein
>>>
>>>>> also needed to keep happy in NY.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Is that what is commonly referred to as the Jewish mafia?
>>>
>>>> ( bizarre geopolitical blather deleted)
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hardly. Stern was well-connected with the New York wealth that funded all
>>>
>>> of the major musical institutions through his Carnegie Hall campaign. The
>>>
>>> Rockefeller's, the Astors, etc were not Jewish and they were the real
>>>
>>> movers and shakers of that era in NYC. It was their intercedence and their
>>>
>>> (particularly David Rockefeller's) willingness to support BOTH the new
>>>
>>> Lincoln Center project AND Carnegie Hall that saved that place. Once he set
>>>
>>> the example, all of the old (and largely non-Jewish) money followed suit.
>>>
>>> If it weren't for Rockefeller's example, Stern would most probably have
>>>
>>> failed. History should have given him at least as much credit as Stern but
>>>
>>> the mythology we all know it is "Isaac Stern saved Carnegie Hall." Still
>>>
>>> think I''me pro-Stern?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nice try hijacking the thread though. Troll away. Are you going to quote
>>>
>>> the Articles of Zion next?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> DF
>>
>> He knows them by heart!!!!!!
>>
>
> He wrote them!
And here I thought you weren't a complete idiot.
Wrong again!
--
TD
> On 7/9/2014 9:34 PM, Willem Orange wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 9:20:21 PM UTC-4, David Fox wrote:
>>> tomdeacon <david...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Is it correct to say that you can't blackmail people who won't let
>>>
>>>>>> themselves be blackmailed?
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>> Am I being unduly naïve in suggesting that Bernstein could simply have
>>>
>>>>>> themselves be blackmailed?
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> said NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> Sure, Bernstein could have done it, but at what cost? He was very early on
>>>>>> said NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> his NYP tenure and they were still playing all of their concerts at
>>>
>>>>> Carnegie Hall. He was a junior artist starting a lucrative recording
>>>
>>>>> contract on a label which Stern was an established senior artist. Plus
>>>
>>>>> Stern was very, very tied in with key constituent groups that Bernstein
>>>
>>>>> also needed to keep happy in NY.
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Is that what is commonly referred to as the Jewish mafia?
>>>
>>>> ( bizarre geopolitical blather deleted)
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hardly. Stern was well-connected with the New York wealth that funded all
>>>
>>> of the major musical institutions through his Carnegie Hall campaign. The
>>>
>>> Rockefeller's, the Astors, etc were not Jewish and they were the real
>>>
>>> movers and shakers of that era in NYC. It was their intercedence and their
>>>
>>> (particularly David Rockefeller's) willingness to support BOTH the new
>>>
>>> Lincoln Center project AND Carnegie Hall that saved that place. Once he set
>>>
>>> the example, all of the old (and largely non-Jewish) money followed suit.
>>>
>>> If it weren't for Rockefeller's example, Stern would most probably have
>>>
>>> failed. History should have given him at least as much credit as Stern but
>>>
>>> the mythology we all know it is "Isaac Stern saved Carnegie Hall." Still
>>>
>>> think I''me pro-Stern?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nice try hijacking the thread though. Troll away. Are you going to quote
>>>
>>> the Articles of Zion next?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> DF
>>
>> He knows them by heart!!!!!!
>>
>
> He wrote them!
And here I thought you weren't a complete idiot.
Wrong again!
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 10, 2014, 1:54:32 PM7/10/14
to
David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> tomdeacon <david...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> Is it correct to say that you can't blackmail people who won't let
>>>> themselves be blackmailed?
>>>>
>>>> Am I being unduly naïve in suggesting that Bernstein could simply have
>>>> said NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
>>>
>>> Sure, Bernstein could have done it, but at what cost? He was very early on
>>> his NYP tenure and they were still playing all of their concerts at
>>> Carnegie Hall. He was a junior artist starting a lucrative recording
>>> contract on a label which Stern was an established senior artist. Plus
>>> Stern was very, very tied in with key constituent groups that Bernstein
>>> also needed to keep happy in NY.
>>
>> Is that what is commonly referred to as the Jewish mafia?
>> ( bizarre geopolitical blather deleted)
>>
>
> Hardly. Stern was well-connected with the New York wealth that funded all
> of the major musical institutions through his Carnegie Hall campaign. The
> Rockefeller's, the Astors, etc were not Jewish and they were the real
> movers and shakers of that era in NYC. It was their intercedence and their
> (particularly David Rockefeller's) willingness to support BOTH the new
> Lincoln Center project AND Carnegie Hall that saved that place.
I can hardly believe your naïveté, not to mention credulity.
> tomdeacon <david...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> Is it correct to say that you can't blackmail people who won't let
>>>> themselves be blackmailed?
>>>>
>>>> Am I being unduly naïve in suggesting that Bernstein could simply have
>>>> said NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
>>>
>>> Sure, Bernstein could have done it, but at what cost? He was very early on
>>> his NYP tenure and they were still playing all of their concerts at
>>> Carnegie Hall. He was a junior artist starting a lucrative recording
>>> contract on a label which Stern was an established senior artist. Plus
>>> Stern was very, very tied in with key constituent groups that Bernstein
>>> also needed to keep happy in NY.
>>
>> Is that what is commonly referred to as the Jewish mafia?
>> ( bizarre geopolitical blather deleted)
>>
>
> Hardly. Stern was well-connected with the New York wealth that funded all
> of the major musical institutions through his Carnegie Hall campaign. The
> Rockefeller's, the Astors, etc were not Jewish and they were the real
> movers and shakers of that era in NYC. It was their intercedence and their
> (particularly David Rockefeller's) willingness to support BOTH the new
> Lincoln Center project AND Carnegie Hall that saved that place.
> Nice try hijacking the thread though. Troll away. Are you going to quote
> the Articles of Zion next?
the verandah?
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 10, 2014, 1:54:32 PM7/10/14
to
David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> tomdeacon <david...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 7/9/14, 9:35 AM, Herman wrote:
> tomdeacon <david...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> David Fox <davidf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> a saddening story with a lot of nasty ramifications.
>>>>
>>>> one would like to know where this bunch of fellow CBS / Sony artists
>>>> with whom Stern often recorded or performed stand on this exclusionary business.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting how Stern liked to promote himself by acting like this
>>>> really generous guy who helped younger artists - preferably on camera
>>>> - while exercizing a kind of scorched-earth strategy when it concerned
>>>> coevals who weren't part of his circle.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, Stern was a very complex individual as many people are. Few are all
>>> good or all bad. Stories, some of them first-hand, of his questionable
>>> behavior have filled RMCR threads for decades. Check the archives.
>>>
>>> As for his generosity, it's also worth noting that quite often when he
>>> pegged a young musician as a potential beneficiary, he'd place a call to
>>> Freddy Mann to actually write the checks. So yes,
>>> he still gets credit for channeling good fortune in a worthy direction
>>> that may not have happened without his active involvement, but it often
>>> wasn't his money or resources he was generous with. To the public,
>>> however, it always appeared that the generosity flowed from Stern, and
>>> Stern always made sure to reap the future political capital of his "generosity."
>>>
>>> As for Bernstein's culpability if the above story were true - Bernstein
>>> learned to be a bit of a politician pragmatist from the early 1950's
>>> onward. When he failed to win the BSO seat despite his undeniable
>>> talent, he learned that he had to get better at the game if he ever hoped
>>> to hold the directorship of a major orchestra. He knew making an enemy
>>> of Stern would come with enormous cost, especially in NYC. Also, his own
>>> orchestra members would lose out on session fees if he decided
>>> to "take the high road."
>>>
>>> On the other side of the scale, I am always dubious of performers that
>>> claim "so-and-so ruined my career." Yes, a generous colleague can give a
>>> boost and a powerful spiteful one can occasionally throw a curveball, but
>>> talent usually wins out. Many artists are somewhat high-strung and
>>> egotistical and somewhat quick to blame external forces or situations
>>> when things don't work out as they'd like. I don't know Aaron Rosand
>>> personally so I can't judge his character. He never built a huge career
>>> in Europe either. I've heard several of his recordings and while he's a
>>> talented musician, I don't put him in the first-tier of his
>>> contemporaries, including Isaac Stern in his prime (the violinist, not the person).
>>>
>>> DF
>>
>> What a strange "argument". First you cast doubt on the veracity of the
>> stories "if the story were true", then you come in "on the other hand.
>>
>> No, you can't get away with that game.
>>
>> Clearly you disbelieve the stories, make excuses, of a sort, for IS and LB,
>> then come in with the clincher: AR wasn't much good anyway.
>>
>> Hahahahaha
>>
>> Sorry, some of us were not born yesterday. We have witnessed IS at the
>> height df his sloppy career. And that was one long sloppy career. Proof?
>> Just listen to the Hess Stern recital from 1958. Dame Myra musty have been
>> horrified by the bad intonation, sloppy musicianship.
>>
>> In my presence Gilels walked out of a rehearsal IS was conducting in
>> Toronto in 1984. To quote EG: "Isaac no practise!"
>
> I'm confused by your post. Did you read it as pro-Stern? Hardly. Even if
> all of Rosand's stories are true (and neither you nor I have any way of
> knowing at this point), I still don't buy into the notion that Stern was
> the anti-gravitational force that held back his career.
This is clearly your problem, not that of any other objective reader.
> knowing at this point), I still don't buy into the notion that Stern was
> the anti-gravitational force that held back his career.
Moreover, once the career was stymied - as Ida Haendel's was - little can
be done. All of Sterns many allies on 57th street would see to that.
Rosand has had a
> very long, solid career as a professional violinist and he's had plenty of
> opportunity to put his art before the public.
But clearly NOT through the events made specific in this letter.
I believe that by in large
> the public has weighed in fairly in his case.
Believe? Or think?
Leave belief to the priests and rabbis. Stick to opinion.
If Rosand had the talent of
> an Oistrakh, a Menuhin, or a Milstein, or even a Stern, he would have fared
> better as did they all.
This you cannot possibly know. Indeed, Milstein, a truly great violinist,
unlike Stern, never enjoyed the success of IS.
Musicians can get derailed for all sorts of
> reasons but if they have long enough careers, water generally reaches it's
> level.
Thank you for this perceptive homily.
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 10, 2014, 1:54:33 PM7/10/14
to
Frank Berger <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/9/2014 8:39 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 7/9/2014 7:57 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
>>> overcome his rational processes. Israel is not guiltless in l'affaire
>>> Palestine, but in order to get to a solution, you need to have two
>>> parties willing to accept each others existence. I don't see that we
>>> have that in this case.
>>>
>>> (BTW, I observed to a Dominican friend of mine that the best solution
>>> would be for all the residents to become Christians. He agreed that
>>> would solve the problem immeditately. But I deal here in eschatology,
>>> not practical politics.)
>>>
>>> Bob Harper
>>
>> You may as well say they should all become Jews, or Sunni, or Shia, or
>> pacificts, or zombies, or secular socialists. Probably any of those
>> would achive peace as well.
> reactor. Isn't it simply a matter of time before they have rockets good
> enough to actually hit it, and any other target in Israel?
We can live in hope. Balancing the scales, so to speak.
--
TD
> On 7/9/2014 8:39 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 7/9/2014 7:57 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
>>>> ---
>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
>>>> protection is active.
>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> Alas, I think you're right. Tom's hatred of the Jews has completely
>>>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
>>>> protection is active.
>>>> http://www.avast.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> overcome his rational processes. Israel is not guiltless in l'affaire
>>> Palestine, but in order to get to a solution, you need to have two
>>> parties willing to accept each others existence. I don't see that we
>>> have that in this case.
>>>
>>> (BTW, I observed to a Dominican friend of mine that the best solution
>>> would be for all the residents to become Christians. He agreed that
>>> would solve the problem immeditately. But I deal here in eschatology,
>>> not practical politics.)
>>>
>>> Bob Harper
>>
>> You may as well say they should all become Jews, or Sunni, or Shia, or
>> pacificts, or zombies, or secular socialists. Probably any of those
>> would achive peace as well.
>>
>> ---
>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
>> protection is active.
>> http://www.avast.com
>>
>
> Today Hamas confirmed that they have been targeting Israel's nuclear
>> ---
>> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
>> protection is active.
>> http://www.avast.com
>>
>
> reactor. Isn't it simply a matter of time before they have rockets good
> enough to actually hit it, and any other target in Israel?
We can live in hope. Balancing the scales, so to speak.
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 10, 2014, 1:56:58 PM7/10/14
to
(patently untrue, of course), so it doesn't really much matter what Stern
did.
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 10, 2014, 1:56:59 PM7/10/14
to
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 10, 2014, 2:01:37 PM7/10/14
to
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 10, 2014, 2:01:37 PM7/10/14
to
--
TD
William Sommerwerck
Jul 10, 2014, 2:13:14 PM7/10/14
to
"Herman" wrote in message
news:97e41d6a-f4c7-4605...@googlegroups.com...
> Your notion that talent will come out and be rewarded no matter
> what adversity just doesn't bear a reality check...
Perhaps the Great Lie of the American experience is that, if you work hard,
you will succeed. Rather, the (rough) contrapositive is true... If you don't
work hard, you will almost certainly fail.
news:97e41d6a-f4c7-4605...@googlegroups.com...
On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:37:44 PM UTC+2, David Fox wrote:
>> I believe that most people in most circumstances should take
>> ownership for their own success or lack thereof...
>> I believe that most people in most circumstances should take
> Your notion that talent will come out and be rewarded no matter
Perhaps the Great Lie of the American experience is that, if you work hard,
you will succeed. Rather, the (rough) contrapositive is true... If you don't
work hard, you will almost certainly fail.
David Fox
Jul 10, 2014, 2:17:23 PM7/10/14
to
evidence, do you think that he's been criminally neglected? I'm not
saying there haven't been more successful violinists that you like less
- everyone can create such a list with respect to anybody. My question
is do you think his career was less than his talent should have afforded
him? I understand it's a highly subjective question, but my take is
that overall he received a relatively fair shake, and that while his
accomplishments were impressive they are not in the
"first-recommendation" category at least with regard to well-traversed
repertoire.
DF
Steve Emerson
Jul 10, 2014, 3:07:16 PM7/10/14
to
In article <j23tr91h8fetf4pm3...@4ax.com>,
It's a shame that these revelations about Stern vs. Rosand, which I'm
afraid are utterly credible, can't be talked about in a thread without
its getting hijacked for whatever purpose, let alone this one.
Otherwise -- "Isaac Stern's machinations against other violinists" is a
more accurate gloss than the actual thread title. Stern certainly comes
across as feuding. Rosand doesn't.
In the comments, below the Rosand text, I was struck by the names of
violinists who, the commenters allege, were harmed by Stern --
violinists of huge talents that dwarfed Stern's. Gitlis, Shumsky --
preposterous. Or Philippe Hirshhorn. The guy played like an angel; but a
near-unknown. And, on the opposite side, the overblown, pop-star
successes -- Zukerman, YoYo Ma.
SE.
Ricardo Jimenez <rick...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Jul 2014 19:41:59 -0400, Frank Berger
> <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 09 Jul 2014 19:41:59 -0400, Frank Berger
> <frankd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Deacon figures that those annoying little rockets from Gaza rarely hit
> >anything, so Israel's response is disproportional (traumatized, though
> >perhaps physically uninjured, Israelis are rarely shown on TV, so they
> >don't exist).
> >
> >Deacon doesn't care that the Geneva Conventions identify precisely who's
> >committing the war crimes here:
>
> >anything, so Israel's response is disproportional (traumatized, though
> >perhaps physically uninjured, Israelis are rarely shown on TV, so they
> >don't exist).
> >
> >Deacon doesn't care that the Geneva Conventions identify precisely who's
> >committing the war crimes here:
>
> Getting to this subject, from a discussion of Isaac Stern's
> machinations against other violinists, was an obvious exercise in
> trollery. Those who have taken the bait are just as guilty as the
> provocateur.
Regardless of this last, I agree with the thrust of your post -- fully.
> machinations against other violinists, was an obvious exercise in
> trollery. Those who have taken the bait are just as guilty as the
> provocateur.
It's a shame that these revelations about Stern vs. Rosand, which I'm
afraid are utterly credible, can't be talked about in a thread without
its getting hijacked for whatever purpose, let alone this one.
Otherwise -- "Isaac Stern's machinations against other violinists" is a
more accurate gloss than the actual thread title. Stern certainly comes
across as feuding. Rosand doesn't.
In the comments, below the Rosand text, I was struck by the names of
violinists who, the commenters allege, were harmed by Stern --
violinists of huge talents that dwarfed Stern's. Gitlis, Shumsky --
preposterous. Or Philippe Hirshhorn. The guy played like an angel; but a
near-unknown. And, on the opposite side, the overblown, pop-star
successes -- Zukerman, YoYo Ma.
SE.
tomdeacon
Jul 10, 2014, 3:23:08 PM7/10/14
to
with Isaac Stern.
One thing you can never accuse Ma of being is lazy, either physically or
intellectually. He is an indefatigable musician possessed of stunning
technical address whose talent was blazingly clear even in his teens, when
I first heard him. No cellist of his generation even comes close. If there
is one, please game him or her, Steve.
Zukerman? A superb talent gone to rat-shit. Lazy, both musically and
intellectually. Early on someone remarked that he lacked "Sitzfleisch".
Right. Also an asshole from a personal standpoint, but that's irrelevant.
All that said, Zukerman could recognize talent in others: Yuja Wang, Jan
Lisiecki were hired by him in Ottawa twelve years ago, before anyone knew
their names.
Stern had that ability too. Zhu Xiao Mei was but one example. But no follow
through. She had to flee to France when support was missing. And Yefim
Bronffman, even though his talent was lesser.
I don't know Philippe Hirschhorn, by the way. Gillis, yes. Shumsky also.
Indeed, he shared the direction of the music part of the early Stratford
Festival in the 1950s.
--
TD
JohnGavin
Jul 10, 2014, 3:46:29 PM7/10/14
to
On Thursday, July 10, 2014 2:17:23 PM UTC-4, David Fox wrote:
> On 7/10/14, 10:28 AM, Herman wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:37:44 PM UTC+2, David Fox wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >> I believe that most people in
>
> >>
>
> >> most circumstances should take ownership for their own success or lack
>
> >>
>
> >> thereof, especially if we are talking about not one particular episode
>
> >>
>
> >> but a life's work over an extended period of time through a variety of
>
> >>
>
> >> settings and circumstances. Exceptions abound, obviously, but I tend to
>
> >>
>
> >> lose respect for people who blame.
>
> >
>
> > Although I tend to think that way too, it can come perilously close to blame the victim, as in this case.
>
> >
>
> > Your notion that talent will come out and be rewarded no matter what adversity just doesn't bear a reality check, and especially not in Rosand's case, in the US in the Fifties, where one is looking at an extremily small and tilted playing field, where the guys with the major recording contracts and the good media skills (i.e. bullshitting on camera) pretty much exterminated the competition, thanks to a culturally insecure audience (and media).
>
>
>
> Rosand has put out a decent number of recordings. Based on that
>
> evidence, do you think that he's been criminally neglected? I'm not
>
> saying there haven't been more successful violinists that you like less
>
> - everyone can create such a list with respect to anybody. My question
>
> is do you think his career was less than his talent should have afforded
>
> him?
Stern seemed to have peaked as a violinist who actually practiced his instrument around 1960. It seems that after this, he began to live on his previous reputation - becoming more and more technically sloppy. Hence incidents where Gilels walked out on a rehearsal with him, Horowitz refused adamantly to play with him at the Carnegie Hall Centenary (he eventually gave in, for reasons one can only guess). Michelangeli point blank refused to play with him on a the concert cruise - and so on.....
> On 7/10/14, 10:28 AM, Herman wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:37:44 PM UTC+2, David Fox wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >> I believe that most people in
>
> >>
>
> >> most circumstances should take ownership for their own success or lack
>
> >>
>
> >> thereof, especially if we are talking about not one particular episode
>
> >>
>
> >> but a life's work over an extended period of time through a variety of
>
> >>
>
> >> settings and circumstances. Exceptions abound, obviously, but I tend to
>
> >>
>
> >> lose respect for people who blame.
>
> >
>
> > Although I tend to think that way too, it can come perilously close to blame the victim, as in this case.
>
> >
>
> > Your notion that talent will come out and be rewarded no matter what adversity just doesn't bear a reality check, and especially not in Rosand's case, in the US in the Fifties, where one is looking at an extremily small and tilted playing field, where the guys with the major recording contracts and the good media skills (i.e. bullshitting on camera) pretty much exterminated the competition, thanks to a culturally insecure audience (and media).
>
>
>
> Rosand has put out a decent number of recordings. Based on that
>
> evidence, do you think that he's been criminally neglected? I'm not
>
> saying there haven't been more successful violinists that you like less
>
> - everyone can create such a list with respect to anybody. My question
>
> is do you think his career was less than his talent should have afforded
>
> him?
Tell me - was Stern such a magnificent artist, like a Cortot or Schnabel, that he could let himself go so badly, and still continue a seeming career based on transcendental musicianship, or were other forces at play?
Was Stern so talented, or was his competence largely an illusion of heavy splicing and editing of recordings? I am asking as I never followed his career.
ljk...@aol.com
Jul 10, 2014, 3:50:20 PM7/10/14
to
Beneficiary in the sense that Vox artists over the years got to record a good deal -- see Peter Frankl, Abby Simon, the vintage Horenstein, the vintage Brendel, the list could go on and on -- and their work then falls (or used to fall) into the hands of a lot of more or less venturesome (and often youngish, relatively impecunious) listeners. Victim in that one often recorded under rather slapdash conditions, with non-major orchestras and conductors (if orchestras and conductors were required), and without the benefits, such as they are, of major-label cachet and publicity. Thus, one tended to remain in what be called the Vox ghetto; the sole onetime Vox mainstays I can think of who managed to escape from it being Brendel and, posthumously for the most part, Horenstein,
How good a fiddler was/is Rosand? Better than Stern? By and large, IMO resoundingly yes. Better than the very best of his times? That would be hard for me to say. I'm most familiar with his excellent Beethoven sonatas from away back in 1961, which I only wish were less harshly recorded (the Vox syndrome again). I also know some of his concerto recordings, which for his part are also excellent, albeit in a full-blooded romantic manner.
Was his career sabotaged? Well, once Rosand found a home with Vox (whatever the story behind that was), I think that for many listeners, orchestra managers, etc., the second- or third-level standing of the label became attached to the musician, whatever the actual musical evidence might be.
Larry Kart
wkasimer
Jul 10, 2014, 4:39:08 PM7/10/14
to
On Thursday, July 10, 2014 3:23:08 PM UTC-4, tomdeacon wrote:
Re Yo-Yo Ma
>>>>> He is an indefatigable musician possessed of stunning technical address whose talent was blazingly clear even in his teens, when I first heard him. No cellist of his generation even comes close. If there is one, please game him or her,<<<<<
Wispelwey, Pergamenschikow, Geringas, Schiff, Isserlis, Kirshbaum, Meneses, Perenyi.
Bill
Re Yo-Yo Ma
>>>>> He is an indefatigable musician possessed of stunning technical address whose talent was blazingly clear even in his teens, when I first heard him. No cellist of his generation even comes close. If there is one, please game him or her,<<<<<
Bill
tomdeacon
Jul 10, 2014, 9:23:34 PM7/10/14
to
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 10, 2014, 9:23:34 PM7/10/14
to
--
TD
Herman
Jul 11, 2014, 1:43:26 AM7/11/14
to
On Friday, July 11, 2014 3:23:34 AM UTC+2, tomdeacon wrote:
> wkasimer <wkas...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Wispelwey, Pergamenschikow, Geringas, Schiff, Isserlis, Kirshbaum, Meneses, Perenyi.
>
>
>
> You're joking, right?
>
> --
>
> TD
It's exactly this belief in the One who is better and more talented than anyone else which gave Stern the power to twist things in his favor.
>
> > Wispelwey, Pergamenschikow, Geringas, Schiff, Isserlis, Kirshbaum, Meneses, Perenyi.
>
>
>
> You're joking, right?
>
> --
>
> TD
Oscar
Jul 11, 2014, 2:42:14 AM7/11/14
to
On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 2:08:52 PM, tomdeacon wrote:
>
> > Sure, Bernstein could have done it, but at what cost? He was very early on
> > his NYP tenure and they were still playing all of their concerts at
> > Carnegie Hall. He was a junior artist starting a lucrative recording
> > contract on a label which Stern was an established senior artist. Plus
> > Stern was very, very tied in with key constituent groups that Bernstein
> > also needed to keep happy in NY.
>
> Is that what is commonly referred to as the Jewish mafia?
Tell me about the gay mafia, Tom, and I'll fill you in on the Jewish mafia.
>
> > Sure, Bernstein could have done it, but at what cost? He was very early on
> > his NYP tenure and they were still playing all of their concerts at
> > Carnegie Hall. He was a junior artist starting a lucrative recording
> > contract on a label which Stern was an established senior artist. Plus
> > Stern was very, very tied in with key constituent groups that Bernstein
> > also needed to keep happy in NY.
>
> Is that what is commonly referred to as the Jewish mafia?
Bozo
Jul 11, 2014, 8:16:02 AM7/11/14
to
>On Friday, July 11, 2014 1:42:14 AM UTC-5, Oscar wrote:
> Tell me about the gay mafia, Tom, and I'll fill you in on the Jewish mafia.
Boring ; I 'd prefer to hear about Italian mafia, where you get to eat lasagne, not gefilte fish or steak Diane.
> Tell me about the gay mafia, Tom, and I'll fill you in on the Jewish mafia.
Bob Harper
Jul 11, 2014, 8:56:51 AM7/11/14
to
and vodka?)
Bob Harper
wkasimer
Jul 11, 2014, 9:15:39 AM7/11/14
to
On Thursday, July 10, 2014 9:23:34 PM UTC-4, tomdeacon wrote:
>> Wispelwey, Pergamenschikow, Geringas, Schiff, Isserlis, Kirshbaum, Meneses, Perenyi <<
> You're joking, right?
>> Wispelwey, Pergamenschikow, Geringas, Schiff, Isserlis, Kirshbaum, Meneses, Perenyi <<
No, I'm not. Why would you think so?
Bill
JohnGavin
Jul 11, 2014, 9:32:13 AM7/11/14
to
Herman
Jul 11, 2014, 10:11:14 AM7/11/14
to
On Friday, July 11, 2014 3:32:13 PM UTC+2, JohnGavin wrote:
>
>
> Could you imagine a concert hall in NYC called "The Al Capone Auditorium"?
Well, City Ballet dances in the David Koch Theatre.
>
>
> Could you imagine a concert hall in NYC called "The Al Capone Auditorium"?
JohnGavin
Jul 11, 2014, 10:55:49 AM7/11/14
to
tomdeacon
Jul 11, 2014, 11:13:50 AM7/11/14
to
term "The One".
I admire Geringas (Did you buy his Sony box, by the way?), Schiff (who was
a Philips artist for a while. He never sold, alas), Meneses ( I attended
his Tchaikovsky Competition win). Perenyi is a fine musician, but no career
to speak of, in NA. Pergamenschikow, ditto.
Never understood Wispelwey's appeal. He's OK, but nothing special, IMO. Two
recordings of the Bach Suites? Yikes. One was too many.
Isserlis I have never heard live. Apparently lots of fire in the belly. Not
the technical smoothness of Ma, however, and RCA Victor was little help to
his career.
--
TD
Herman
Jul 11, 2014, 1:17:02 PM7/11/14
to
Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Friday, July 11, 2014 3:23:34 AM UTC+2, tomdeacon wrote:
>> wkasimer <wkas...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>
>>> Wispelwey, Pergamenschikow, Geringas, Schiff, Isserlis, Kirshbaum, Meneses, Perenyi.
>>
>>
>>
>> You're joking, right?
>>
>> --
>>
>> TD
>
> It's exactly this belief in the One who is better and more talented than
> anyone else which gave Stern the power to twist things in his favor.
Please don't jump to unwarranted conclusions, Herman. I never used the
term "The One".
You said "No cellist even comes close".
> On Friday, July 11, 2014 3:23:34 AM UTC+2, tomdeacon wrote:
>> wkasimer <wkas...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>
>>> Wispelwey, Pergamenschikow, Geringas, Schiff, Isserlis, Kirshbaum, Meneses, Perenyi.
>>
>>
>>
>> You're joking, right?
>>
>> --
>>
>> TD
>
> It's exactly this belief in the One who is better and more talented than
> anyone else which gave Stern the power to twist things in his favor.
Please don't jump to unwarranted conclusions, Herman. I never used the
term "The One".
tomdeacon
Jul 11, 2014, 6:26:07 PM7/11/14
to
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 11, 2014, 6:26:07 PM7/11/14
to
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 11, 2014, 6:26:08 PM7/11/14
to
No answer to my query. sorry the question confounds you. but you know the
saying: there are no dumb questions, only dumb answers. and there is
nothing dumber than no answer.
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 11, 2014, 6:37:08 PM7/11/14
to
Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Friday, July 11, 2014 3:23:34 AM UTC+2, tomdeacon wrote:
>>> wkasimer <wkas...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>> Wispelwey, Pergamenschikow, Geringas, Schiff, Isserlis, Kirshbaum, Meneses, Perenyi.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You're joking, right?
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> TD
>>
>> It's exactly this belief in the One who is better and more talented than
>> anyone else which gave Stern the power to twist things in his favor.
>
> Please don't jump to unwarranted conclusions, Herman. I never used the
> term "The One".
>
> You said "No cellist even comes close".
I still did not utter "The One".
> Herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Friday, July 11, 2014 3:23:34 AM UTC+2, tomdeacon wrote:
>>> wkasimer <wkas...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>> Wispelwey, Pergamenschikow, Geringas, Schiff, Isserlis, Kirshbaum, Meneses, Perenyi.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You're joking, right?
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> TD
>>
>> It's exactly this belief in the One who is better and more talented than
>> anyone else which gave Stern the power to twist things in his favor.
>
> Please don't jump to unwarranted conclusions, Herman. I never used the
> term "The One".
>
> You said "No cellist even comes close".
Additionally, there are degrees of distance among those who don't come
close, Herman.
--
TD
Oscar
Jul 11, 2014, 7:16:50 PM7/11/14
to
On Friday, July 11, 2014 3:26:08 PM, tomdeacon wrote:
>
> > Tell me about the gay mafia, Tom, and I'll fill you in on the Jewish mafia.
>
> Gay mafia? What's that? Half the world's pianists?
Don't play dumb, fagala. Tit-for-tat. You scratch my back, I'll scratch...forget it.
>
> > Tell me about the gay mafia, Tom, and I'll fill you in on the Jewish mafia.
>
> Gay mafia? What's that? Half the world's pianists?
Willem Orange
Jul 11, 2014, 7:24:00 PM7/11/14
to
Oscar
Jul 11, 2014, 8:08:22 PM7/11/14
to
On Friday, July 11, 2014 4:24:00 PM, Willem Orange wrote:
>
> That IS funny!!!!!!!
I'm glad someone got the joke :-)
>
> That IS funny!!!!!!!
I'm glad someone got the joke :-)
Charles Milton Ling
Jul 11, 2014, 8:18:33 PM7/11/14
to
On 10.07.2014 02:49, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 7/9/2014 8:39 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 7/9/2014 7:57 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
>>> On 7/9/14, 4:41 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 7/9/2014 6:00 PM, wkasimer wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 5:08:52 PM UTC-4, tomdeacon
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Na�vet� continues apace as the USA continues to turn a
>>>>>> blind eye while Israel bombs the shit out of the residents
>>>>>> of Gaza. A turkey shoot. <
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom, if you have an iPhone, you need to download this app:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/red-alert-israel/id873642097?mt=8
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
Just in case you haven't noticed the bombardment coming from Gaza,
>>>>> this app sends an alert every time a missile is fired into
>>>>> Israel, along with the name of the target. During the day in
>>>>> Israel, I've been receiving 2-6 alerts per hour.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill
>>>> the Palestinians: waging war from densely populated civilian
>>>> population centers.
>>>>
>>>> Israel's response of targeting the terrorists is perfectly
>>>> legal under the Geneva Conventions and is the only sane
>>>> response of a government responsible (and answerable in
>>>> elections) to its people.
>>>>
>>>> But Deacon doesn't care about any of that since it's only Jews
>>>> they're firing rockets at.
>>>>
>>>> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
>>>> Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> Alas, I think you're right. Tom's hatred of the Jews has
>>> completely overcome his rational processes. Israel is not
>>> guiltless in l'affaire Palestine, but in order to get to a
>>> solution, you need to have two parties willing to accept each
>>> others existence. I don't see that we have that in this case.
>>>
>>> (BTW, I observed to a Dominican friend of mine that the best
>>> solution would be for all the residents to become Christians. He
>>> agreed that would solve the problem immeditately. But I deal here
>>> in eschatology, not practical politics.)
>>>
>>> Bob Harper
>>
>> You may as well say they should all become Jews, or Sunni, or Shia,
>> or pacificts, or zombies, or secular socialists. Probably any of
>> those would achive peace as well.
>>
>> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
>> Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
>>
>
> Today Hamas confirmed that they have been targeting Israel's nuclear
> reactor. Isn't it simply a matter of time before they have rockets
> good enough to actually hit it, and any other target in Israel?
>
> I read an interesting analysis that took the position that it would
> violate international law to negotiate with terrorists:
>
> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15283#.U73ijbGc0Ss
>
> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
> Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
>
I rather think international law goes out the window when the bombs
start flying.
--
Charles Milton Ling
Vienna, Austria
Gpg4win encryption available
> On 7/9/2014 8:39 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 7/9/2014 7:57 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
>>> On 7/9/14, 4:41 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 7/9/2014 6:00 PM, wkasimer wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 5:08:52 PM UTC-4, tomdeacon
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Na�vet� continues apace as the USA continues to turn a
>>>>>> blind eye while Israel bombs the shit out of the residents
>>>>>> of Gaza. A turkey shoot. <
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom, if you have an iPhone, you need to download this app:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/red-alert-israel/id873642097?mt=8
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
Just in case you haven't noticed the bombardment coming from Gaza,
>>>>> this app sends an alert every time a missile is fired into
>>>>> Israel, along with the name of the target. During the day in
>>>>> Israel, I've been receiving 2-6 alerts per hour.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Deacon figures that those annoying little rockets from Gaza
>>>> rarely hit anything, so Israel's response is disproportional
>>>> (traumatized, though perhaps physically uninjured, Israelis are
>>>> rarely shown on TV, so they don't exist).
>>>>
>>>> Deacon doesn't care that the Geneva Conventions identify
>>>> precisely who's committing the war crimes here:
>>>>
>>>> One against the Palestinans: Targeting civilians Two against
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Deacon figures that those annoying little rockets from Gaza
>>>> rarely hit anything, so Israel's response is disproportional
>>>> (traumatized, though perhaps physically uninjured, Israelis are
>>>> rarely shown on TV, so they don't exist).
>>>>
>>>> Deacon doesn't care that the Geneva Conventions identify
>>>> precisely who's committing the war crimes here:
>>>>
>>>> the Palestinians: waging war from densely populated civilian
>>>> population centers.
>>>>
>>>> Israel's response of targeting the terrorists is perfectly
>>>> legal under the Geneva Conventions and is the only sane
>>>> response of a government responsible (and answerable in
>>>> elections) to its people.
>>>>
>>>> But Deacon doesn't care about any of that since it's only Jews
>>>> they're firing rockets at.
>>>>
>>>> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
>>>> Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> Alas, I think you're right. Tom's hatred of the Jews has
>>> completely overcome his rational processes. Israel is not
>>> guiltless in l'affaire Palestine, but in order to get to a
>>> solution, you need to have two parties willing to accept each
>>> others existence. I don't see that we have that in this case.
>>>
>>> (BTW, I observed to a Dominican friend of mine that the best
>>> solution would be for all the residents to become Christians. He
>>> agreed that would solve the problem immeditately. But I deal here
>>> in eschatology, not practical politics.)
>>>
>>> Bob Harper
>>
>> You may as well say they should all become Jews, or Sunni, or Shia,
>> or pacificts, or zombies, or secular socialists. Probably any of
>> those would achive peace as well.
>>
>> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
>> Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
>>
>
> Today Hamas confirmed that they have been targeting Israel's nuclear
> reactor. Isn't it simply a matter of time before they have rockets
> good enough to actually hit it, and any other target in Israel?
>
> I read an interesting analysis that took the position that it would
> violate international law to negotiate with terrorists:
>
> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15283#.U73ijbGc0Ss
>
> --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
> Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
>
I rather think international law goes out the window when the bombs
start flying.
--
Charles Milton Ling
Vienna, Austria
Gpg4win encryption available
tomdeacon
Jul 11, 2014, 10:13:49 PM7/11/14
to
Charles Milton Ling <cml...@aon.at> wrote:
> On 10.07.2014 02:49, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 7/9/2014 8:39 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 7/9/2014 7:57 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
>>>> On 7/9/14, 4:41 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>> On 7/9/2014 6:00 PM, wkasimer wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 5:08:52 PM UTC-4, tomdeacon
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Naïveté continues apace as the USA continues to turn a
> On 10.07.2014 02:49, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 7/9/2014 8:39 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 7/9/2014 7:57 PM, Bob Harper wrote:
>>>> On 7/9/14, 4:41 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>> On 7/9/2014 6:00 PM, wkasimer wrote:
>>>>>> On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 5:08:52 PM UTC-4, tomdeacon
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
"Geneva Conventions". Actually I doubt tgey could place Geneva on a map
without the aid of Google.
--
TD
tomdeacon
Jul 11, 2014, 10:13:50 PM7/11/14
to
--
TD
arri bachrach
Jul 21, 2014, 8:42:27 PM7/21/14
to
On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 8:23:38 PM UTC-4, Terry wrote:
> In article <72f851d1-f189-453b...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> arri bachrach <abach...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 11:40:50 AM UTC-4, pgaron wrote:
>
> > > Insider Gossip Alert: In this article, the violinist Aaron Rosand accuses
>
> > > Isaac Stern of sabotaging his career:
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > http://tinyurl.com/pduxzws
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > pgaron
>
> >
>
> > by all accounts he was a nasty but brilliant man.
>
> >
>
> > AB
>
>
>
> Who?
go to youtube and watch Stern in 'Isaac Stern plays Wieniawski' A fabulous live performance of the last movt. Tis a shame that he did not maintain his skills for lack of practice. Playing is almost worthy of Heifetz, (more musical IMO)
AB
> In article <72f851d1-f189-453b...@googlegroups.com>,
>
> arri bachrach <abach...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 11:40:50 AM UTC-4, pgaron wrote:
>
> > > Insider Gossip Alert: In this article, the violinist Aaron Rosand accuses
>
> > > Isaac Stern of sabotaging his career:
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > http://tinyurl.com/pduxzws
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > pgaron
>
> >
>
> > by all accounts he was a nasty but brilliant man.
>
> >
>
> > AB
>
>
>
> Who?
go to youtube and watch Stern in 'Isaac Stern plays Wieniawski' A fabulous live performance of the last movt. Tis a shame that he did not maintain his skills for lack of practice. Playing is almost worthy of Heifetz, (more musical IMO)
AB
Ed Romans
Jul 22, 2014, 1:30:00 PM7/22/14
to
On Wednesday, July 9, 2014 8:34:00 PM UTC+1, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
> Am I being unduly na�ve in suggesting that Bernstein could simply have said
>
> NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
The Rosand performances with Bernstein were in 1960. The Bernstein/Stern recording of the Barber was made in 1964 in conjunction with a series of live Bernstein/Stern performances. So the account in the article of Stern rushing to learn and record it instead of Rosand is not entirely correct.
Ed
>
> Am I being unduly na�ve in suggesting that Bernstein could simply have said
>
> NO!, and then made public the truth about the situation?
The Rosand performances with Bernstein were in 1960. The Bernstein/Stern recording of the Barber was made in 1964 in conjunction with a series of live Bernstein/Stern performances. So the account in the article of Stern rushing to learn and record it instead of Rosand is not entirely correct.
Ed
tomdeacon
Jul 22, 2014, 3:19:11 PM7/22/14
to
--
TD
Bozo
Jul 25, 2014, 8:46:53 AM7/25/14
to
>On Tuesday, July 8, 2014 10:40:50 AM UTC-5, pgaron wrote:
> Insider Gossip Alert: In this article, the violinist Aaron Rosand accuses Isaac Stern of sabotaging his
I was not aware Kreisler served briefly , injured at the Russian front in WWI :
> Insider Gossip Alert: In this article, the violinist Aaron Rosand accuses Isaac Stern of sabotaging his
http://net.lib.byu.edu/estu/wwi/memoir/kreisler/kreisler.htm
Rosand and Stern were luckier seems.
arri bachrach
Jul 25, 2014, 12:58:38 PM7/25/14
to
AB
AB
tomdeacon
Jul 25, 2014, 6:48:02 PM7/25/14
to
--
TD
arri bachrach
Jul 25, 2014, 6:59:41 PM7/25/14
to
AB
tomdeacon
Jul 26, 2014, 8:12:11 AM7/26/14
to
--
TD
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