Claudio Arrau gay?
Gabriel Parra
gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
for that?
John Oster
Gabriel Parra
What possible difference could it make if you listen to, say, Mahler
or Beethoven on any given hour of any given day? We enjoy for the sake
of enjoyment, and sometimes we seek information merely for the sake of
being informed.
Frank Berger
"Gabriel Parra" <gparrab...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183530285.8...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Are you gay?
Andrew T. Kay
http://youtube.com/watch?v=w9jl_gDrRRc
Actually, it cannot at all -- it's Arrau and Muti rehearsing the
Beethoven G-major with the Philadelphians. Just trying to move the
discussion along. This appears to be from the early 1980s, judging by
their respective appearances. I had read elsewhere that Muti's English
was extremely limited in this period, but that must have been an
overstatement; his comments here suggest reasonable fluency.
Todd K
Proboscis
"Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
> "Gabriel Parra" <gparrab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 4, 2:20 am, John Oster <guitar...@bcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> > Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
>>> > gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
>>> > he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
>>> > found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
>>> > people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
>>> > for that?
>>>
>>> No, but what possible difference could it make?
>>
>> What possible difference could it make if you listen to, say, Mahler
>> or Beethoven on any given hour of any given day? We enjoy for the sake
>> of enjoyment, and sometimes we seek information merely for the sake of
>> being informed.
>
> Are you gay?
Gay and necrophiliac?
Tony Overington
Who's not gay these days?
her...@yahoo.com
Socrates was very gay. Steeped in gayness.
I cannot imagine Arrau playing a single note without being at least
50% gay.
Herman
Richard Schultz
: Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau gay?
WADR, in what sense is the answer (a) any of your business and (b) relevant
to his achievements as a musician?
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
td
It is a fact that Claudio Arrau was once arrested in the middle of the
act of fellatio in a men's toilet in Australia.
What that proves is not very much, I think.
Moreover, the relevance of this fact, or any other aspects of Arrau's
personal life, to his music entirely escapes me.
TD
William Sommerwerck
Many of these assertions are made based on rumor or what people would _like_
to think. They should be taken with a grain of salt. Tom Cruise has often
been pegged as gay, and he might very well be, but I suspect this rumor
derives from the fantasies of those who think he's good-looking. (My idea of
a handsome, sexy actor is George Hayes.)
We tend to judge performers' artistic lives apart from their private lives
(qv, our recent discussion of Frank Sinatra's thuggish behavior), as we
should; even public figures are entitled to _some_ privacy. The question of
whether a particular performer is homosexual is pertinent only in terms of
how it affects or informs their work. Cary Grant is a good example; it's
believed that his need to hide his sexuality helped make him a better actor.
*
On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's private
behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was condemned or even
illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that Horowitz had to hide,
even to the extent of marrying and fathering a daughter who committed
suicide. "Outing" him after his death shouldn't alter our opinion about his
performances, but it's politically necessary.
I'd be disappointed to learn Senor Snooze was gay. You'd expect less-dull
performances from a gay pianist.
By the way, about 45 years ago I saw a photo of Leonard Bernstein lying
down, facing the camera, in some degree of undress (perhaps just his shirt
off) with his naked son on his back. I thought, "Only someone gay would feel
comfortable doing something like that."
* About 45 years ago he wrote a brief autobiography for one of the women's
magazines. He has the courage to confront the issue (if only indirectly)
when he rhetorically asked "Why do people talk of things of which they know
nothing?"
http://www.carygrant.net/autobiography/index.html
Sacqueboutier
Agreed.
It wouldn't make any difference as to how I
like his playing. Not sure why you would ask.
--
--
Kindest regards,
Don
Sacqueboutier
Good question.
Just seeking information merely for the sake of
being informed, of course.
Sacqueboutier
I know scores of very fine musicians who are not
gay. I also know scores of very fine musicians who
are. Once again, what difference does it make to
our discussions here?
sechumlib
> Who's not gay these days?
Are you kidding? With the political & world situations what they are,
who can even be borderline happy, let alone gay (in its old meaning)?
John Thomas
forum's primary interest these days? Is Scooter Libby gay?
--
jwt
Terry Simmons
Gabriel Parra <gparrab...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yep.
Phil Caron
>
> I'd be disappointed to learn Senor Snooze was gay. You'd expect less-dull
> performances from a gay pianist.
>
and often flambouyant performances dull.
- Phil Caron
JohnGavin
wrote:
> > Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio
> > Arrau gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but
> > apparently he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted
> > homosexual. In fact, I found a website that lists supposedly gay
> > celebrities and famous people as a "confirmed" homosexual.
> > Any reliable sources who can vouch for that?
>
> Many of these assertions are made based on rumor or what people would _like_
> to think. They should be taken with a grain of salt. Tom Cruise has often
> been pegged as gay, and he might very well be, but I suspect this rumor
> derives from the fantasies of those who think he's good-looking.
Oh gosh. I think the rumors come from alot more grounds than his
supposed good looks! (I never got why girls go crazy over him). The
reason Cruise is a disaster in the making (IMO) is that he goes to
lengths to promote a completely false image of himself, even at the
expense of others' lives.
John Wilson
wrote:
>Can we PLEASE move back to only ON TOPIC subject relevant to this
>forum's primary interest these days? Is Scooter Libby gay?
Of course he is. Only a gay man would take the fall and risk going to
jail for another man.
John
Allen
friends both straight, gay and in-between; I can say the same thing
about people I don't care for. It's no damn business of mine, nor do I
see any reason that it should be anyone else's. Caring about who is/who
isn't is usually the sign of a bigot peering through the darkness. I
also don't care if a person is tall or short, fat or lean, blue-eyed,
brown-eyed, green-eyed, or two different-colored eyes. People are what
their genes make them--no more, no less. Get a life--your own, that is.
Allen
Allen
> Can we PLEASE move back to only ON TOPIC subject relevant to this
> forum's primary interest these days? Is Scooter Libby gay?
>
Allen
Bob Lombard
"John Wilson" <j...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1h9n83db2r65c2sn9...@4ax.com...
LOL. A legion of 'stand-up guys' would maybe come looking for you, if any of
them have nothing to do but read rmcr.
bl
Richard Schultz
: Tom Cruise has often
: been pegged as gay, and he might very well be, but I suspect this rumor
: derives from the fantasies of those who think he's good-looking. (My idea of
: a handsome, sexy actor is George Hayes.)
Tom Cruise is an actor? That's news to me.
JohnGavin
> > Arrau gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but
> > apparently he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted
> > homosexual. In fact, I found a website that lists supposedly gay
> > celebrities and famous people as a "confirmed" homosexual.
> > Any reliable sources who can vouch for that?
>
> Many of these assertions are made based on rumor or what people would _like_
> to think. They should be taken with a grain of salt. Tom Cruise has often
> been pegged as gay, and he might very well be, but I suspect this rumor
> derives from the fantasies of those who think he's good-looking. (My idea of
> a handsome, sexy actor is George Hayes.)
>
> We tend to judge performers' artistic lives apart from their private lives
> (qv, our recent discussion of Frank Sinatra's thuggish behavior), as we
> should; even public figures are entitled to _some_ privacy. The question of
> whether a particular performer is homosexual is pertinent only in terms of
> how it affects or informs their work. Cary Grant is a good example; it's
> believed that his need to hide his sexuality helped make him a better actor.
> *
>
> On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's private
> behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was condemned or even
> illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that Horowitz had to hide,
> even to the extent of marrying and fathering a daughter who committed
> suicide. "Outing" him after his death shouldn't alter our opinion about his
> performances, but it's politically necessary.
>
several times and also had a daughter. The problem is that other
lives are affected. If a woman marries a man thinking he's straight,
and the man is actually partially using her as a cover, or as they say
a "beard", then the woman is misled and ultimately used (unless she
enters into the marriage knowing the situation). If the man seeks
other men after marrying, I'm sure you can see how it complicates
matters on several levels for both the wife and children.
Bob Harper
the respect and seriousness it deserves. For crying out loud, next
someone will be saying that Furtwängler was homosexual, and that the
string of natural children he produced through his life were merely cover!
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Frank Berger
"Sacqueboutier" <Nos...@somewhere.net> wrote in message
news:2007070408211150073-Nospam@somewherenet...
I got a haircut yesterday from an apparently gay man. Should I like the
haircut?
Frank Berger
"John Thomas" <abras...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:abrasax365-9008D...@c-61-68-245-199.per.connect.net.au...
> Can we PLEASE move back to only ON TOPIC subject relevant to this
> forum's primary interest these days? Is Scooter Libby gay?
>
Richard Loeb
"Bob Harper" <bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:zt6dnTGFeKtyIRbb...@comcast.com...
You are giving the original poster (a real piece of work as a search of the
archives can verify) more than he deserves in the way of replies or
recognition. Richard
Frank Berger
"Allen" <al...@nothere.net> wrote in message
news:468baaed$0$12161$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> Tony Overington wrote:
>> On 4 Jul, 07:09, Gabriel Parra <gparrabless...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
>>> gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
>>> he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
>>> found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
>>> people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
>>> for that?
>>
>> Who's not gay these days?
>>
> I'm certainly not.
Such a great denial!
> However, I don't care who is or isn't. I've had friends both straight, gay
> and in-between; I can say the same thing about people I don't care for.
> It's no damn business of mine, nor do I see any reason that it should be
> anyone else's. Caring about who is/who isn't is usually the sign of a
> bigot peering through the darkness. I also don't care if a person is tall
> or short, fat or lean, blue-eyed, brown-eyed, green-eyed, or two
> different-colored eyes. People are what their genes make them--no more, no
> less. Get a life--your own, that is.
> Allen
As long as he's not a Republican.
Frank Berger
"JohnGavin" <dag...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1183559538.9...@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
The problem in this case is not that he is gay, but that he's a scoundrel.
>
>
Ian Pace
definitively 'gay' or 'straight'?
Frank Berger
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:OrmdnUBk2cG-Ghbb...@comcast.com...
Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
"Outing" him after his death shouldn't alter our opinion about his
> performances, but it's politically necessary.
>
> I'd be disappointed to learn Senor Snooze was gay. You'd expect less-dull
> performances from a gay pianist.
>
> By the way, about 45 years ago I saw a photo of Leonard Bernstein lying
> down, facing the camera, in some degree of undress (perhaps just his shirt
> off) with his naked son on his back. I thought, "Only someone gay would
> feel
> comfortable doing something like that."
I have exacrtly such a photo of myself with one of my daughters. I suppose
that means I'm gay. I never knew. Thanks for enlightening me. I can stop
pretending now.
Frank Berger
Of course. It was the angst he suffered covering up his gayness that made
him a great conductor. Also, only a gay conductor would have helped the
expelled BPO Jewish musicians as he did.
Frank Berger
"Ian Pace" <i...@ianpace.com> wrote in message
news:MkPii.5801$oa7....@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> Why this underlying assumption from many quarters that someone has to be
> definitively 'gay' or 'straight'?
Please explain how Capitalism is the root of prejudice against homosexuals.
Richard Schultz
: I have exacrtly such a photo of myself with one of my daughters. I suppose
: that means I'm gay. I never knew. Thanks for enlightening me. I can stop
: pretending now.
Actually, nowadays, the scare level is at a sufficiently high value that
pictures like that are sometimes taken as evidence of child abuse, which
is a good thing for you, since it is well-known that only heterosexual
men abuse children. There was a case about 10-12 years ago where a guy
was taking a photography class, and had an assignment to photograph things
from an unusual angle. He was photographing from underneath his glass
coffee table when his six-year-old daughter who, as I recall the story, had
just gotten out of the bath, asked if he would take a picture of her sitting
on the table. While *taking* the picture was probably a pretty stupid thing
to have done, his *printing* it has got to be among the most insanely dense
things ever done in the state of New Jersey.
Richard Schultz
: Why this underlying assumption from many quarters that someone has to be
claim, usually in the context of telling someone who claims to be in between
(cf. the Kinsey report) that he's "really" homosexual but lacks the guts
to admit it. Frankly, I really don't see why a person's sexuality should
be of any interest to anyone who is not a prospective sexual partner.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
William Sommerwerck
>> private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
>> condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
>> Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
>> a daughter who committed suicide.
> Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she" wouldn't
have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit suicide. The
problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist) couldn't handle
having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
>> By the way, about 45 years ago I saw a photo of Leonard Bernstein
>> lying down, facing the camera, in some degree of undress (perhaps
>> just his shirt off) with his naked son on his back. I thought, "Only
>> someone gay would feel comfortable doing something like that."
> I have exacrtly such a photo of myself with one of my daughters.
> I suppose that means I'm gay. I never knew. Thanks for enlightening me.
> I can stop pretending now.
Glad I helped. <grin>
I'd be cautious about whom I showed that photo to. There are loonies out
there who'll misinterpret it.
Walter Traprock
Walter Traprock
> In article <MkPii.5801$oa7....@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>, Ian Pace
> <i...@ianpace.com> wrote:
> : Why this underlying assumption from many quarters that someone has to be
> : definitively 'gay' or 'straight'?
>
> AFAIK, it's the people on your end of the political spectrum who make that
> claim, usually in the context of telling someone who claims to be in between
> (cf. the Kinsey report) that he's "really" homosexual but lacks the guts
> to admit it. Frankly, I really don't see why a person's sexuality should
> be of any interest to anyone who is not a prospective sexual partner.
Someone have the hots for Arrau?
Bob Harper
(snip)
>
> You are giving the original poster (a real piece of work as a search of the
> archives can verify) more than he deserves in the way of replies or
> recognition. Richard
>
>
Perhaps, but Allen's post epitomized the appropriate response, IMO. My
reply considered only his words.
Bob Harper
Niklas N
"Gabriel Parra" <gparrab...@gmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:1183529376.2...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Jack Hamilton
>In article <MkPii.5801$oa7....@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net>, Ian Pace <i...@ianpace.com> wrote:
>: Why this underlying assumption from many quarters that someone has to be
>: definitively 'gay' or 'straight'?
>
>AFAIK, it's the people on your end of the political spectrum who make that
>claim, usually in the context of telling someone who claims to be in between
>(cf. the Kinsey report) that he's "really" homosexual but lacks the guts
>to admit it. Frankly, I really don't see why a person's sexuality should
>be of any interest to anyone who is not a prospective sexual partner.
"Peter Grimes".
Ian Pace
"Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote in message
news:138ngsf...@news.supernews.com...
Frank Berger
>>> On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
>>> private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
>>> condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
>>> Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
>>> a daughter who committed suicide.
>
>> Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
>
> It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she" wouldn't
> have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit suicide. The
> problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist) couldn't handle
> having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
So it had nothing to do with his being gay. And I suppose the only
conclusion to draw is that successful people should never have children.
>
Bob Harper
> "Bob Harper" <bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:zt6dnTaFeKusIRbb...@comcast.com...
>> The last two responses seem to me to address the OP's question with all
>> the respect and seriousness it deserves. For crying out loud, next someone
>> will be saying that Furtwängler was homosexual, and that the string of
>> natural children he produced through his life were merely cover!
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> Of course. It was the angst he suffered covering up his gayness that made
> him a great conductor. Also, only a gay conductor would have helped the
> expelled BPO Jewish musicians as he did.
>
>
(slaps forehead) Of course! How could I have missed it? thanks for
straightening me out. Oops, no pun intended :)
Bob Harper
Frank Berger
"Niklas N" <niklas...@telia.com> wrote in message
news:53Qii.3433$ZA....@newsb.telia.net...
Richard Schultz
: This is a very long thread.
My thread's longer than your thread.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"I daresay there's truth in yon Latin book on your shelves; but it's
gibberish and not truth to me, unless I know the meaning o' the words."
--Elizabeth Gaskell, _North and South_
Richard Schultz
:> Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
:
: It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she" wouldn't
: have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit suicide. The
: problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist) couldn't handle
: having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
Which (I assume that this was your point) had nothing to do with whether
or not he was homosexual, heterosexual, or people-sexual. You could also
argue that had *Horowitz's* parents not married and had a son, then "he"
wouldn't have become a famous pianist who later had a daughter who
committed suicide. . .
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
sechumlib
> In article <53Qii.3433$ZA....@newsb.telia.net>, Niklas N
> <niklas...@telia.com> wrote:
> : This is a very long thread.
>
> My thread's longer than your thread.
Is that a proto-gay comment? :-)
O
> >> On the other hand, the social and political context of someone's
> >> private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
> >> condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
> >> Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
> >> a daughter who committed suicide.
>
> > Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
>
> It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she" wouldn't
> have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit suicide. The
> problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist) couldn't handle
> having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
So, you're advocating pre-conception abortion? (I suppose I have to
add :-) for the humor-challenged)
-Owen
sechumlib
Now, Owen! That makes you a blatant hypocrite.
You keep telling me, in other threads, how I am putting words in your
mouth that you never said. And this poster definitely did not say
anything about "advocating pre-conception abortion" (which isn't
surprising since that's an impossible act). You threw at him, as his
own work, things he never said and probably never thought.
So quit whining to me in ANY thread, at ANY time, about allegedly doing
what you repeatedly do yourself.
William Sommerwerck
>> of any interest to anyone who is not a prospective sexual partner.
> "Peter Grimes"
Good point. Most, if not all, of Britten's operas have a homoerotic
subtext -- and in two it's right on the surface. This is an excellent
example of how knowing about someone's sexuality helps us understand his
work.
William Sommerwerck
>>>> private behavior -- particularly in an era when such behavior was
>>>> condemned or even illegal -- can't be ignored. It's unfortunate that
>>>> Horowitz had to hide, even to the extent of marrying and fathering
>>>> a daughter who committed suicide.
>>> Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
>> It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
>> wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit
>> suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist)
couldn't
>> handle having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
> So it had nothing to do with his being gay. And I suppose the only
> conclusion to draw is that successful people should never have children.
You've got it backwards. If Horowitz hadn't felt (I assume) that he had to
marry to cover his sexuality, he wouldn't have brought someone into the
world who suffered and wound up killing herself.
William Sommerwerck
> : It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
wouldn't
> : have had to go through the agony that caused her to commit suicide. The
> : problem (as I understand it) that she (also a pianist) couldn't handle
> : having a father who was better-known and more accomplished.
> Which (I assume that this was your point) had nothing to do with whether
> or not he was homosexual, heterosexual, or people-sexual. You could also
> argue that had *Horowitz's* parents not married and had a son, then "he"
> wouldn't have become a famous pianist who later had a daughter who
> committed suicide. . .
Again, backwards. See my other response.
William Sommerwerck
>> It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
>> wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to
>> commit suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also
>> a pianist) couldn't handle having a father who was better-known
>> and more accomplished.
> So, you're advocating pre-conception abortion? (I suppose I have to
> add :-) for the humor-challenged)
Yes, in a sense. Parents have children without thinking about the
possibility that their lives might be quite terrible. As Brahms said to the
parents of a newborn child... "You denied him the greatest gift of all...
Not to be born."
Frank Berger
How can you ASSUME anything? A five minute internet seach shows me that it
is inconclusive whether Sonia Horowitz even committed suicide, and zero
evidence that her troubled relationship with her father (which presumably
would have been a contributing factor if she *did* committ suicide) was
caused by his being homosexual.
Frank Berger
>>>> Why was it necessary for his daughter to commit suicide?
>
>>> It wasn't. But had Horowitz not married and had a daughter, "she"
>>> wouldn't have had to go through the agony that caused her to
>>> commit suicide. The problem (as I understand it) that she (also
>>> a pianist) couldn't handle having a father who was better-known
>>> and more accomplished.
>
>> So, you're advocating pre-conception abortion? (I suppose I have to
>> add :-) for the humor-challenged)
>
> Yes, in a sense. Parents have children without thinking about the
> possibility that their lives might be quite terrible.
Some surely do. Whether open homosexuals or frustrated in-the-closet
homosexuals are more likely to do so than other potentially bad parents has
not been demonstrated. By you at least.
Roland van Gaalen
> Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
> gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
> he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
> found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
> people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
> for that?
>
He is definitely one of my favorite conductors!!!
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl (AT=@)
John Wilson
<thorste...@vermontel.net> wrote:
>
>"John Wilson" <j...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:1h9n83db2r65c2sn9...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 05:48:56 -0700, John Thomas <abras...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Can we PLEASE move back to only ON TOPIC subject relevant to this
>>>forum's primary interest these days? Is Scooter Libby gay?
>>
>> Of course he is. Only a gay man would take the fall and risk going to
>> jail for another man.
>>
>> John
>>
>--------
>LOL. A legion of 'stand-up guys' would maybe come looking for you, if any of
>them have nothing to do but read rmcr.
>
>bl
LOL! I hope G. Gordon Liddy is among them. I've always wanted to
tell him what a dork his is to his face.
Seriously, I hear from informed sources that Scooter (how can a guy
with that nickname not be gay) was very distraught with the
commutation of his sentence. He was looking forward to meeting Bubba.
John
JohnGavin
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I remember reading in one of the Horowitz bios that when his daughter
Sonia was alive, he would speak of her as being one of his many
accomplishments. None of his other accomplishments however developed
severe emotional problems, and posed situations that Vladimir was
unequipped to deal with. If memory serves, she drove a motorcycle
recklessly, and got into a near-fatal accident at one point. I don't
know about Mrs. Wanda, but the story is that VH gave her the cold
shoulder when she became a "problem".
Frank Berger
"JohnGavin" <dag...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1183579996.6...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
Which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with VH's sexual orientation
or anything else.
Richard Loeb
HKAlan
gay, except for those whose last name is Serkin.
And I've always been under the impression that no classical violinists
are gay.
I don't entirely understand why some people think that others should
have no interest in the personal lives of great artists. We read
biographies. It's fun and sometimes instructive to read about the
personal lives of great artists.
Anyway, lots of straight people's children have committed suicide. Did
they commit suicide because their parents were straight? (I know that
the other poster was not suggesting that Horowitz's sexuality was the
only reason his daughter committed suicide.)
And I have to agree with those who think that there's nothing about
that photo of Bernstein and his son (at least as it was described
here, I haven't seen the photo) that would particularly suggest that
the father was gay.
Alan
Bob Lombard
Um, the one-time Yankee shortstop was gay? Anyway, Libby must have been
mislead. Bubba is a folk-legend, a sort of Pecos Peter.
bl
sechumlib
> I've always been under the impression that all classical pianists are
> gay, except for those whose last name is Serkin.
And those named Wu Han, at the very least.
Frank Berger
"Richard Loeb" <loe...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jamdnUx-m_ZumBHb...@comcast.com...
At last, we agree, Richard.
William Sommerwerck
> is inconclusive whether Sonia Horowitz even committed suicide, and zero
> evidence that her troubled relationship with her father (which presumably
> would have been a contributing factor if she *did* committ suicide) was
> caused by his being homosexual.
Again, you're misreading. If Horowitz hadn't felt it necessary to hide his
homosexuality, he wouldn't have married and had a daughter who killed
herself -- for whatever reason. She wouldn't have lived, and she wouldn't
have suffered.
William Sommerwerck
for at least a week, until he's had a chance to so thoroughly edit it that
it can't possibly be misunderstood. I suppose I'm partly at fault, but I do
sense a certain lack of ability in other readers to connect A to B to C...
The point is this...
Horowitz was homosexual, in an era when that was not acceptable. Like many
other gay men in the public eye, he felt it necessary to get married to
cover his "deviation". *
Are you all with me so far? Good.
For whatever reasons, he and Toscanini's daughter decided to have a child.
For whatever reasons (which have no bearing on this), she has an unhappy
life and commits suicide.
Still with me? Good.
Had homosexuality not been socially unacceptable, Horowitz would likely not
have married, and likely not have produced an unhappy child who suffered and
killed herself (or, if you like, died prematurely because of bad decisions).
I was trying to make a connection between being closeted and doing things
that hurt yourself and others -- even to the extent of bringing someone into
this world who "shouldn't" have been. That was the point -- not that
Horowitz was a bad husband or father because he was queer (though he might
have been). Don't you think that had Horowitz and his wife known what was
going to happen to their daughter, they never would have had a child?
* Yes, yes, yes, this is an assumption. But it's a reasonable one.
JohnGavin
>
> - Show quoted text -
It strongly suggests that when you marry and have a child as props,
you may not be prepared to deal with all the nuances, problems and set-
backs that family life brings with it.
Jack Hamilton
>Had homosexuality not been socially unacceptable, Horowitz would likely not
>have married, and likely not have produced an unhappy child who suffered and
>killed herself (or, if you like, died prematurely because of bad decisions).
He probably wouldn't have married, but he might have had children, and
they might or might or might not have been unhappy. Lots of closeted
men and women have had children who didn't commit suicide. And lots
of straight parents have children who commit suicide.
There seems to be a connection between being closeted and killing
yourself, but that's different from being closeted and having your
children kill themselves. It happens, yes, but there must have been
many other factors involved.
Frank Berger
parents not produced them? What's the point of discussing this at all if
you're not attributing her suffering to VH's homosexuality. You simply have
no point to make.
Frank Berger
Like I said, you had no point to make.
Frank Berger
But you don't know that this particular child was had as a prop. Why
couldn't a closeted gay man and his wife want a child for exactly the same
reasons as anyone else?
Norman M. Schwartz
did), and its consequences apparently it didn't stop him from having three
children.
>
Norman M. Schwartz
Unless you have the DNA evidence, neither you nor anyone else knows that
_VH_ was actually her biological father. In fact maybe both the parents and
the daughter knew he was not her father and that's why she killed herself
(if any of this story has any merit).
>
Norman M. Schwartz
"Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote in message
news:138o8a6...@news.supernews.com...
father.
>
Norman M. Schwartz
>
Norman M. Schwartz
It's said Tom Cruise is gay and the fact that he's no father is openly joked
about..
>
Frank Berger
"Norman M. Schwartz" <nm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:yNVii.97$uG...@newsfe12.lga...
I did, and with which you seem to agree.
Phil Caron
> for at least a week, until he's had a chance to so thoroughly edit it that
> it can't possibly be misunderstood. I suppose I'm partly at fault, but I
> do
> sense a certain lack of ability in other readers to connect A to B to C...
>
> The point is this...
>
> Horowitz was homosexual, in an era when that was not acceptable. Like many
> other gay men in the public eye, he felt it necessary to get married to
> cover his "deviation". *
>
> Are you all with me so far? Good.
>
> For whatever reasons, he and Toscanini's daughter decided to have a child.
> For whatever reasons (which have no bearing on this), she has an unhappy
> life and commits suicide.
>
> Still with me? Good.
>
> Had homosexuality not been socially unacceptable, Horowitz would likely
> not
> have married, and likely not have produced an unhappy child who suffered
> and
> killed herself (or, if you like, died prematurely because of bad
> decisions).
>
demonstrable bearing on why she died. I think you're just reaching for
something from atop your gay soapbox.
- Phil Caron
Gabriel Parra
Arrau or any artist or public figure was gay are utterly disingeneous.
Why the hell would any of us read biographies, then? If a man or woman
were only to be judged on the basis of his or her works, there would
be no need to explore his or her background either to perhaps gain a
greater appreciation of said works or merely for curiosity's sake,
which is a perfectly valid reason to want to know more about someone
one admires (or detests). Does it help us understand Mozart's music
any better to know that he was fond of using scatological references
in his letters? Not at all, I don't think, and yet his unedited
letters were finally published only a few years ago and just about
everyone agreed that was a good thing, even if they were deffinitely
not meant for public consumption. We pry into the private lives of
others constantly, ESPECIALLY if they are famous and they interest us
personally.
I had heard about Arrau being arrested in Australia, but never knew
the particulars of his "indecent" act. And I do think that the fact of
his homosexuality - like Tchaikovsky's and Schubert's - illuminate
aspects of his artistry. He was wont to emphasize the latent eroticism
in certain works - more than other pianists - and talked unabashedly
about it. Interesting to know whether the eroticism he underlined grew
out of a homosexual or heterosexual conception of it (I hope no one
proposes that there is no difference between the two). Beyond that, I
think the "flambouyance" of some of his interpretations, as another
poster said, could not have been conceived by a heterosexual male.
Now, to suggest that there is no difference in thinking and feeling
and in the way we relate to the world and to each other based on our
sexual preferences is to be profoundly naive and politically correct,
while betraying an utter ignorance of even the most basic Freudian
insights into human nature and sexuality.
I am not gay, though often I have wished I were. I have never been
physically attracted to other men, even if I have found some men
incredibly intellectually and emotionally attractive. I cannot get
past my repugnance for the male physique, unfortunately, and I am
obsessed by the female form. In all other ways, however, I find myself
more often empathizing with homosexual than with heterosexual men,
particularly as the former do not have "macho" emotional inhibitions
that prevent many heterosexual men from having more fulfilling
friendships with other men, beyond merely going to the ballgame and
sitting around the porch drinking beer and talking about pussy.
And I do very much think one's sexuality should be clear to others who
may stand to be affected by it. In the last couple of years alone, I
have been confronted with three otherwise married men (with children)
with whom I established close friendships who went on to express their
desire to have sexual relations with me. I would have been flattered
were it not for the fact that it became evident that part of the
reason they engaged in a friendship with me to begin with was because
of said desires. Moreover, because they could apparently easily switch
between male and female partners, they projected such "sexual
flexibility", if you will, onto others and thought every man was a
blow job away from being "converted," a stance which, when it is
forcefully proposed, can be not only annoying but offensive and
profoundly discomfitting, destroying an otherwise beautiful friendship
in the process. Finally, none of these men's respective wives and
children had any idea about their sexuality, which made all of them
philanderers and liars. I think that says a lot about a person's
character and to what extent you may trust them. I need not mention a
scumbag like McGreevy, former governor of New Jersey, to illustrate my
point. I do think closeted homosexuals are an inherently devious lot,
by necessity, which in terms of character, is a defining
characteristic, to say the least.
JohnGavin
Gabriel, something tells me that this post of yours is going to get
you in trouble in countless ways. All I can say is - ouch!!!
Roland van Gaalen
news:93Tii.3038$%q4.2426@amstwist00...
> "Gabriel Parra" <gparrab...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
> news:1183529376.2...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>> Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
>> gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
>> he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
>> found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
>> people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
>> for that?
>>
>
> He is definitely one of my favorite conductors!!!
I meant: pianists (!!!)
And Claudio Abbado is one of my favorite conductors (!!!)
An instance of "mutatis mutandis", I suppose.
William Sommerwerck
I had a point, and made it. You just didn't think it was a valid point.
Frank Berger
It made my skin crawl.
Frank Berger
>> Like I said, you had no point to make.
>
> I had a point, and made it. You just didn't think it was a valid point.
>
No. You didn't make a point. You just said a lot of stuff. It's not the
same thing.
William Sommerwerck
> born has no demonstrable bearing on why she died. I think
> you're just reaching for something from atop your gay soapbox.
Duh. She died -- unhappily -- because she was born.
William Sommerwerck
>> possibility that their lives might be quite terrible. As Brahms said to
>> the
>> parents of a newborn child... "You denied him the greatest gift of all...
>> Not to be born."
> Sour grapes from a frustrated old SOB.
He was a young man when he said this.
William Sommerwerck
>> I had a point, and made it. You just didn't think it was a valid point.
> No. You didn't make a point. You just said a lot of stuff.
> It's not the same thing.
I spelled it out in plain language. Sorry you don't understand simple
English, or reasoning.
William Sommerwerck
"Gabriel Parra" <gparrab...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183595206....@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Proboscis
"Sacqueboutier" <Nos...@somewhere.net> wrote:
> On 2007-07-04 05:09:32 -0400, her...@yahoo.com said:
>> On 4 juil, 11:05, Tony Overington <sido...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 4 Jul, 07:09, Gabriel Parra <gparrabless...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
>>>> gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
>>>> he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
>>>> found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
>>>> people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
>>>> for that?
>>>
>>
>> Socrates was very gay. Steeped in gayness.
>>
>> I cannot imagine Arrau playing a single note without being at least
>> 50% gay.
>>
>> Herman
>
> I know scores of very fine musicians who are not
> gay.
How can you be sure? Maybe they just pretend...
Frank Berger
Everybody understand what you said the first time. It wasn't necessary to
repeat it. What you said had no meaningful content.
Proboscis
"Bob Harper" <bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote:
> her...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On 4 juil, 11:05, Tony Overington <sido...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 4 Jul, 07:09, Gabriel Parra <gparrabless...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Especially to Tom Deacon but others may pipe in: was Claudio Arrau
>>>> gay? I know he was married and sired three children, but apparently
>>>> he, like, Horowitz and Richter, was a closeted homosexual. In fact, I
>>>> found a website that lists supposedly gay celebrities and famous
>>>> people as a "confirmed" homosexual. Any reliable sources who can vouch
>>>> for that?
>>>
>>> Who's not gay these days?
>>
>> Socrates was very gay. Steeped in gayness.
>>
>> I cannot imagine Arrau playing a single note without being at least
>> 50% gay.
>>
>> Herman
>>
> the respect and seriousness it deserves. For crying out loud, next someone
> will be saying that Furtwängler was homosexual, and that the string of
> natural children he produced through his life were merely cover!
Maybe his wife had an affair with Claudio Arrau?
Frank Berger
Can't you see how ridiculous that is? She died because she was born. As we
all do. She didn't die unhappily *because* she was born.
Frank Berger
I'm going to try one last time. All you've said is that Horowitz's daughter
would have been better off had she not been born. Aside from the fact that
this is debatable *even if* she was unhappy and took her own life (after
all, she may have been "happy" often enough to have justified having been
born), you've made no connection (even denied trying) to VH or his
sexuality. Hence there was no point in saying it, as one could say that
about *anyone* who is unhappy.
Have the last word if you like.