Mussorgsky 'Night on Bare Mountain' (original version)...
M
concert round about 1979... Conducted by someone called Walter Suskind...
Anyone have any details... Or a recording...??
M.
Gerard
I don't know the recording by Susskind.
There are 3 different recordings by Abbado (RCA, 1980 / Sony, 1995 / DG, 1193).
The first recording was by Lloyd-Jones (Philips) - IIRC long before 1979.
Gerard
> DG, 1193).
= DG, 1993
M
> M wrote:
>> Apparently the rare *original version* of the piece was done at a
>> 'BBC Prom' concert round about 1979... Conducted by someone called
>> Walter Suskind... Anyone have any details... Or a recording...??
>>
>
> I don't know the recording by Susskind.
> There are 3 different recordings by Abbado (RCA, 1980 / Sony, 1995 /
> DG, 1193). The first recording was by Lloyd-Jones (Philips) - IIRC
> long before 1979.
Perhaps someone taped Suskind's Prom concert...? It would have been
broadcast 'live' on BBC Radio 3... And listed in the Prom Guide for 1979 or
whenever...
M.
Dontait...@aol.com
The original version has now been recorded several times, beginning
with a British LP in the 1970s. I'm sorry that I cannot now remember
details. (The first one conducted by David Lloyd-Jones, perhaps?)
If the Prom conductor you name is the one of whom I am thinking, it
could be Walter Suesskind (properly, an umlaut over the "u"). He was
born in Prague in 1917 and settled in England at the beginning of
World War II. He made a huge number of recordings, especially as an
accompanist for Artur Schnabel and others on HMV after about 1946.
During his last years he was the conductor of the St. Louis Symphony
Orchestra in the USA.
Don Tait
LookingGlass
Serendipity
I was watching the Classic Arts station the other day. I caught a clip
of Barenboim conducting the Vienna PO in a live performance of the
"original" Mussorgsky piece. BUT...it was a version I had never heard
before. I am familiar with the Rimsky version, the Stokowski version,
and a couple of recordings of the original version (one by Abaddo) as
well as being familiar with a recording of the opera SOROCHINTSY FAIR.
But the one conducted in the Barenboim/Vienna clip was none of these.
I searched on the *google-izer* but to no avail. No information.
I'm puzzled.
Taree Dawg
> I was watching the Classic Arts station the other day. I caught a clip
> of Barenboim conducting the Vienna PO in a live performance of the
> "original" Mussorgsky piece. BUT...it was a version I had never heard
> before. I am familiar with the Rimsky version, the Stokowski version,
> and a couple of recordings of the original version (one by Abaddo) as
> well as being familiar with a recording of the opera SOROCHINTSY FAIR.
> But the one conducted in the Barenboim/Vienna clip was none of these.
> I searched on the *google-izer* but to no avail. No information.
Night on Bald Mountain : Orchestration Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov,
Prager Philharmonischer Chor.
(In) Joshua : Elena Zareba : Mezzo-soprano.
Recording : Berlin, Philharmonie, Grober Saal, 5/1993 & 9/1993
Barenboim recorded this with the BPO for DG (445 238-2) with several
other Mussorgsky items. He may have touched up a few things in the score
if he conducted this with the VPO.
I remember an original version for LP (Philips Universo) conducted by
David Lloyd-Jones. I don't know whether this has appeared on CD.
Ray Hall, Taree
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Kerrison
Permit me to come to the rescue.
Thursday 17 August 1978 - BBC Symphony Orchestra, Walter Susskind,
conductor.
Mozart: Symphony No. 39
Frank Martin: Monologue aus Jedermann
- interval -
Mussorgsky: A Night on the Bare Mountain (original version)
Shostakovich: Symphony No. 1
From the 1978 Proms Prospectus. All Proms are/were broadcast of
course, but how many are/were recorded by the BBC for its archives I
don't know. But I imagine this could be floating around somwhere. One
for BBC Legends, perhaps?
Incidentally, while I'm looking at old Proms programmes, it never
ceases to amaze me at the length of some of them. Here's one from the
1950 season:
Mozart: Magic Flute Overture
Strauss: Three Songs with Orchestra
Elgar: Cello Concerto
Dvorak: Symphony No. 4
Gounod: Jewel Song from Faust
Tchaikovsky: Francesca da Rimini
Victoria de los Angeles was the singer, Anthony Pini played the cello,
and Basil Cameron conducted the LPO.
Or how about this one, also from 1950:
Haydn: Symphony No. 88
Rossini: Rondo from Cenerentola
Walton: Violin Concerto
Sibelius: 2nd Symphony
Debussy: Three Nocturnes
Holst: Ballet Music from The Perfect Fool
Sir Malcolm Sargent conducted the BBC Symphony and BBC Chorus, Janet
Howe sang the Rossini, and Theo Olof played the violin.
Whew.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
typed in news:827d0083-20fa-4fe6-b441-
336560...@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> If the Prom conductor you name is the one of whom I am thinking, it
> could be Walter Suesskind (properly, an umlaut over the "u"). He was born
> in Prague in 1917 and settled in England at the beginning of World War II.
> He made a huge number of recordings, especially as an accompanist for Artur
> Schnabel and others on HMV after about 1946. During his last years he was
> the conductor of the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra in the USA.
He was the mentor of Leonard Slatkin, who succeeded him in St. Louis. I
recall a Slatkin "Ma Vlast" in Minneapolis around 1980 in which the conductor
prefaced the performance by saying how much he owed to Susskind, who had
recently died. I might even still have this on cassette somewhere.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Jeff
I no longer have it, but if memory serves, the Samo Hubad 1950s
recording of Sorochintksky Fair (Epic) included the original Bald
(Bare) Mountain, with its distinctive double-tongued trumpets in lieu
of string ostinatos at the start. In stereo, I prefer the Kitayenko/
Oslo to those by Abbado and Kuchar.
Stan Punzel
1971. It was on a release with Haitink.LPO Scheherazade.
Dil
> > > I was watching the Classic Arts station the other day. I caught a clip
> > > of Barenboim conducting the Vienna PO in a live performance of the
> > > "original" Mussorgsky piece. BUT...it was a version I had never heard
> > > before. I am familiar with the Rimsky version, the Stokowski version,
> > > and a couple of recordings of the original version (one by Abaddo) as
> > > well as being familiar with a recording of the opera SOROCHINTSY FAIR.
Coincidental to this thread, I have been listening to numerous Bare
Mountains lately and I have only just heard Stokowski’s version for
the first time (via the Phase 4 CD). With due respect to Stokowski
fans (I’m one), I thought it was awful. It sounds as if Stokowski was
attempting to out-do Rimsky-Korsakov –who was attempting to out-do
Mussorgsky. Therefore, what we are left with in the Stokowski version
is an exaggeration (Stokowski) of a distortion (Rimsky-Korsakov) of an
original composition (Mussorgsky -moody and atmospheric and finely
conceived).
Interesting in the liner notes to this Stokowski recording, it states
that for his 1929 concert performances of Boris given in Philadelphia,
Stokowski mostly rejected Rimsky-Korsakov’s orchestration and opted
for a return to the composer’s “original intentions” -whatever that
means.
Over the past few days, I have listened to Barenboim/Chicago and
Maazel/Berlin (both on DG LPs) plus Abbado/Berlin (1994), Davis/
Concertgebouw, Sinopoli/NYPO, Ansermet/OSR, Golovanov/USSR-Radio, and
Coates/London, all on CD. Of these, my favorites are Davis/
Concertgebouw (very well done musically and not *overdone* and very
well recorded) and the 1945 Coates recording (absolutely perfect –I
loved it, plus on this excellent 1995 Beulah CD you get an equally
delectable Sorochinsky Fair, which is a lovely little composition
((from an unfinished opera)) here in the crafted Arensky arrangement
and sounding in the hands of Coates, as sprightly as could be. While
listening to this, I could not help but to think of Aaron Copland, who
must have received a bit of his Americana inspiration from the dance
of a Russian peasant☺
Dil.
Frank Berger
Here's a cached web page from E-bay:
Christopher Howell
>
> 1971. It was on a release with Haitink.LPO Scheherazade.
By a pleasant irony ... the young Lloyd-Jones got to do an LP with the
LPO for Philips because Haitink fell ill before a session. L-J was
allowed to choose his own programme so the first recording of the ur-
Bare Mountain got on tape by stealth.
Chris Howell
Kerrison
Stokowski wasn't the only one to make his own version of the score.
Rene Leibowitz recorded his version for Reader's Digest (I assume it
came out on Chesky) and it has a very weird Schoenbergian ending. Sir
Adrian Boult also recorded a version for Reader's Digest, though in
this case it was in Charles Gerhardt's edition, with many changes in
the percussion and brass departments and Rimsky's little recurring
trumpet fanfares omitted altogether. You'll find that one on Chesky
CD53.
Gottfried von Einem's version has also been recorded, but I forget by
whom and on what label (we have experts here who'll come up with the
answer to that one) and there's a yet another published edition by the
late cellist George Sopkin, but I don't know if that's ever been
recorded.
Mention of Proms performances reminds me that Rozhdestvensky conducted
the 'Sorochintsy Fair' version of Bare Mountain at the 1966 Proms,
with the BBC Symphony Orchestra and Chorus and baritone David Wilson
Johnson, singing in English (BBC Radio Classics 15656 91392). This
ought to be heard more often: the choir is caterwauling right from the
very first bar and the piece emerges as quite different to the
familiar purely orchestral score, whether in the original version or
in Rimsky's re-working. So all in all there are a hell of a lot of
versions of this one piece, though not so many as there are of the
same composer's Pictures at an Exhibition.
Gerard
I remember that LP was issued in a rather cheap series, called "Universo". It
contained works of 3 or 4 Russian composers - IIRC Rimsky: Sadko; Borodin:
symph. 1.; something by Balakirev.
Gerard
Right.
TareeDawg
It was on Philips Universo series. One of Borodin's symphonies was
included with the Bald Mountain.
Ray Hall, Taree
Gerard
Sure (I'm still puzzling what in your post is different from what I wrote :) )
The LP is available on eBay:
But the cover does not look like how I remember it.
Dave Cook
> Stokowski wasn't the only one to make his own version of the score.
> Rene Leibowitz recorded his version for Reader's Digest (I assume it
> came out on Chesky)
It's now available as a pricey SACD. You can find it as a 16/44
download here (with the Leibowitz Pictures it was coupled with):
http://lolyesyoudo.blogspot.com/2009/09/mussorgsky-power-of-orchestra.html
Dave Cook
TareeDawg
> TareeDawg wrote:
>> Gerard wrote:
>>> Christopher Howell wrote:
>>>> On 24 Dic, 06:16, Stan Punzel <rapun...@spiritone.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 1971. It was on a release with Haitink.LPO Scheherazade.
>>>> By a pleasant irony ... the young Lloyd-Jones got to do an LP
>>>> with the LPO for Philips because Haitink fell ill before a
>>>> session. L-J was allowed to choose his own programme so the first
>>>> recording of the ur- Bare Mountain got on tape by stealth.
>>>>
>>>> Chris Howell
>>> I remember that LP was issued in a rather cheap series, called
>>> "Universo". It contained works of 3 or 4 Russian composers - IIRC
>>> Rimsky: Sadko; Borodin: symph. 1.; something by Balakirev.
>> It was on Philips Universo series. One of Borodin's symphonies was
>> included with the Bald Mountain.
>
> Sure (I'm still puzzling what in your post is different from what I wrote :) )
Merely affirming your words.
> The LP is available on eBay:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LPO-Lloyd-Jones-Mussorgsky%2FBalakirev%2FBorodin%2FRimsky-Kor_W0QQitemZ380190433022QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq20091222?IMSfp=TL091222158001r12695
>
> But the cover does not look like how I remember it.
Not how it looked like to me either. Didn't it have a photo of D L-J on it?
Ray Hall
Gerard
> Gerard wrote:
>
> > The LP is available on eBay:
> >
> >
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LPO-Lloyd-Jones-Mussorgsky%2FBalakirev%2FBorodin%2FRimsky-Kor_W0QQitemZ380190433022QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq20091222?IMSfp=TL091222158001r12695
> >
> > But the cover does not look like how I remember it.
>
> Not how it looked like to me either. Didn't it have a photo of D L-J
> on it?
>
> Ray Hall
I don't think it had (that photo).
I remember the cover being more colorful (not red only). Possibly I had a Dutch
or German issue.
Romy the Cat
> There are 3 different recordings by Abbado (RCA, 1980 / Sony, 1995 / DG, 1193).
Yep, the Claudio Abbado with LSO is the one of the greatest original
versions of the work committed to the official media. One more time
proves that Mussorgsky’s moderated by somebody else is less fun…
The Cat
td
> Apparently the rare *original version* of the piece was done at a 'BBC Prom'
> concert round about 1979... Conducted by someone called Walter Suskind...
The contempt is palpable.
Try googling Walter Susskind instead of revealing your ignorance.
TD
phlogiston
> On Dec 23, 5:52 pm, "M" <M...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > Apparently the rare *original version* of the piece was done at a 'BBC Prom'
> > concert round about 1979... Conducted by someone called Walter Suskind...
>
Wilbraham?) fluffed a solo at the start of the finale to the
Shostakovitch. The Frank Martin was new to me, he's still a composer I
don't know well.
I also own the David Lloyd Jones lp - also enjoyable.
Susskind was a good conductor - made a number of recordings. Few of
them seem to be on cd?? (I'm happy for someone to correct me there)
P
Frank Berger
> On Dec 24, 6:22 am, "Frank Berger" <frank.d.ber...@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>> FWIW, Susskind recorded Bare Mountain with the Philharmonia in the
>> 60s. Here's a cached web page from E-bay:
>
> *1953* recording as a free download from a new copy..
> http://themusicparlour.blogspot.com/2009/10/walter-susskind-philharmonia-parlophone.html
> I do wonder why I bother - still - maybe I won't, much longer !!!!
>
> BTW - Susskind recorded the Rimsky version, again, in 1977, for
> Classics for Pleasure - with the LPO.
Not sure if you're really annoyed or are kidding. Any any case, I obviously
didn't see your post, and I don't think anyone referred to in this thread.
By the way, what version did Susskind record in 1953?
Gerard
>
> Susskind also recorded, for CFP, with the LPO (Nov.77) Kodaly's Hary
> Janos / Galanta & Marosszek Dances.
> An uncredited Kenneth Wilkinson/Kingsway Hall production - & well
> worth acquiring (LP = CFP 40292).
On the CD (EMI 7243 5 72683 2 5) it is all credited.
LookingGlass
>
> Coincidental to this thread, I have been listening to numerous Bare
> Mountains lately and I have only just heard Stokowski’s version for
> the first time (via the Phase 4 CD). With due respect to Stokowski
> fans (I’m one), I thought it was awful. It sounds as if Stokowski was
> attempting to out-do Rimsky-Korsakov –who was attempting to out-do
> Mussorgsky. Therefore, what we are left with in the Stokowski version
> is an exaggeration (Stokowski) of a distortion (Rimsky-Korsakov) of an
> original composition (Mussorgsky -moody and atmospheric and finely
> conceived).
(snip)
> Dil.
Thank you. It is a fascinating piece of music. In all the versions.
LookingGlass
> Gottfried von Einem's version has also been recorded, but I forget by
> whom and on what label (we have experts here who'll come up with the
> answer to that one) and there's a yet another published edition by the
> late cellist George Sopkin, but I don't know if that's ever been
> recorded.
It was on the Marco Polo label...for violin and orchestra...can't
remember the artist.
Dontait...@aol.com
[in part]
> Interesting in the liner notes to this Stokowski recording, it states
> that for his 1929 concert performances of Boris given in Philadelphia,
> Stokowski mostly rejected Rimsky-Korsakov’s orchestration and opted
> for a return to the composer’s “original intentions” -whatever that
> means.
Oliver Daniel tells what that means on pp. 218 ff. of his Stokowski
biography (Dodd Mead & Co., 1982). He writes that Stokowski became
determined to perform Boris Godunov in 1929:
"One might think that Stokowski, like most conductors, would have
preferred the voluptuous, overblown [Daniel's terms] Rimsky-Korsakov
version of Boris. Not so! Stoki was most anxious to produce Boris as
close to Mussorgsky's intentions as possible.
"He was confronted by the fact that Mussorgsky had actually left two
'original' versions, and with two original versions to choose from, it
was almost impossible to be a purist. Therefore, Stokowski, while
offering the Mussorgsky 'original' -- it was in fact the first such
performance outside of Russia -- did make a compendium of the two
versions. He kept the stark and primitive quality of the first edition
and he retained the very effective Polish scenes, just as Shostakovich
did over two decades later, although they are not part of the first
version."
There's more, but that's the crux of it. Daniel writes that
Stokowski had the help of Sylvan Levin in preparing the Philadelphia
performing version. Levin, then a very gifted young man, was to remain
involved with Stokowski for years.
Don Tait
The Historian
> Dontaitchic...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
> typed in news:827d0083-20fa-4fe6-b441-
> 336560b6d...@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
>
> > If the Prom conductor you name is the one of whom I am thinking, it
> > could be Walter Suesskind (properly, an umlaut over the "u"). He was born
> > in Prague in 1917 and settled in England at the beginning of World War II.
> > He made a huge number of recordings, especially as an accompanist for Artur
> > Schnabel and others on HMV after about 1946. During his last years he was
> > the conductor of the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra in the USA.
>
> He was the mentor of Leonard Slatkin, who succeeded him in St. Louis. I
> recall a Slatkin "Ma Vlast" in Minneapolis around 1980 in which the conductor
> prefaced the performance by saying how much he owed to Susskind, who had
> recently died. I might even still have this on cassette somewhere.
Slatkin praised Susskind in an interview 30 years ago, mentioning that
his mentor insisted Slatkin's recording sessions with the SLSO for Vox
(Gershwin orchestral music) take place before his own.
Dontait...@aol.com
> TareeDawg wrote:
> > Gerard wrote:
>
> > > The LP is available on eBay:
>
>
>
>
> > > But the cover does not look like how I remember it.
>
> > Not how it looked like to me either. Didn't it have a photo of D L-J
> > on it?
>
> > Ray Hall
>
> I don't think it had (that photo).
> I remember the cover being more colorful (not red only). Possibly I had a Dutch
> or German issue.
I bought it as a Philips import in the USA and my copy has the red
cover shown on the e-bay listing. It appears to be a UK pressing
(everything in English). There must indeed have been different covers
in different countries or at different times.
Don Tait
Gerard
Although my LPs are "burried" under my CDs, I succeeded in refinding this
particular LP.
It is a German issue (6580 053), everything in German, with a very colorful
cover: 3 horses in front of a small carriage with a driver and a passenger, in
front of a field and a small village.
M forever
> On Dec 23, 2:52 pm, "M" <M...@home.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Apparently the rare *original version* of the piece was done at a 'BBC Prom'
> > concert round about 1979... Conducted by someone called Walter Suskind...
>
> > M.
>
>
> I was watching the Classic Arts station the other day. I caught a clip
> of Barenboim conducting the Vienna PO in a live performance of the
> "original" Mussorgsky piece. BUT...it was a version I had never heard
> before. I am familiar with the Rimsky version, the Stokowski version,
> and a couple of recordings of the original version (one by Abaddo) as
> well as being familiar with a recording of the opera SOROCHINTSY FAIR.
> I searched on the *google-izer* but to no avail. No information.
>
> I'm puzzled.
>
> www.Shemakhan.com
The version Barenboim and the Wiener Philharmoniker performed in that
televised open air concert from Schönbrunn actually *is* the 1867
"original version". I have the recording of the concert as itunes
download and I verified that it is that version with the score. Very
good performance, but due to the outdoor venue, nearly dead sound,
obviously closemiked and without any ambience. A pity, it would be
great to have that performance in better sound.
M forever
> LookingGlass wrote:
> > I was watching the Classic Arts station the other day. I caught a clip
> > of Barenboim conducting the Vienna PO in a live performance of the
> > "original" Mussorgsky piece. BUT...it was a version I had never heard
> > before. I am familiar with the Rimsky version, the Stokowski version,
> > and a couple of recordings of the original version (one by Abaddo) as
> > well as being familiar with a recording of the opera SOROCHINTSY FAIR.
> > But the one conducted in the Barenboim/Vienna clip was none of these.
> > I searched on the *google-izer* but to no avail. No information.
>
> Prager Philharmonischer Chor.
> (In) Joshua : Elena Zareba : Mezzo-soprano.
> Recording : Berlin, Philharmonie, Grober Saal, 5/1993 & 9/1993
Allow me to clean up some confusion here.
The information quoted above relates to *Abbado's* recording with the
BP on DG, and that does contain the original version, not the Rimsky-
Korsakov one.
"Orchestration Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov" refers to the choral items
following "Night" and it was probably copied and pasted here in that
way which is confusing. See also the scan of the back cover here:
http://www.amazon.com/Mussorgsky-Pictures-at-Exhibition-Modest/dp/B0000012VG/
Abbado had already recorded the same version for RCA with the LSO in
the 70s, and he made another recording, again with the BP but this
time for Sony, of the later choral version not long after this DG
disc. So overall, there are 3 Abbado recordings of 2 versions of this
piece.
> Barenboim recorded this with the BPO for DG (445 238-2) with several
> other Mussorgsky items. He may have touched up a few things in the score
> if he conducted this with the VPO.
This catalog number again refers to Abbado's, not Barenboim's
recording. Barenboim did actually record "Night" for DG, but that was
in Chicago in the 70s, and that was the Rimsky-Korsakov version.
As I said in another post here, his recent open air concert with the
WP featured the original version from 1867.
M forever
> Over the past few days, I have listened to Barenboim/Chicago and
> Maazel/Berlin (both on DG LPs) plus Abbado/Berlin (1994), Davis/
> Concertgebouw, Sinopoli/NYPO, Ansermet/OSR, Golovanov/USSR-Radio, and
> Coates/London, all on CD. Of these, my favorites are Davis/
> Concertgebouw (very well done musically and not *overdone* and very
> well recorded)
I completely forgot that I had the Davis recording so it was great to
"rediscover" it. I agree, a really nice recording, but unfortunately,
I am not a big fan of the R-K version. It still contains a lot of
great material, but the OV is so much richer and crazier.
A very good recording of the OV which has not been mentioned yet is
Dohnányi with Cleveland (Decca) which could also be described as "very
well done musically and not *overdone* and very well recorded". It
also has a great effect which I really like, in one place where the
piccolo flute holds a long high note, the player overblows and bends
the intonation of the note upwards very slightly as he crescendos
towards the middle of the note. This is obviously intended and a very
eerie, howling effect.
Allen
> Apparently the rare *original version* of the piece was done at a 'BBC Prom'
> concert round about 1979... Conducted by someone called Walter Suskind...
> Anyone have any details... Or a recording...??
>
> M.
>
>
cutout of The Fair at Sorochinsk, conducted by Aronowitsch (German form,
naturally) which I burned to CD a few years ago. The notes credited
Vassarion Shebalin for a "new arrangement". According to one reference
on Google, he merely "completed" it. Does anyone know how much he
meddled with it? As I recall, Night is rather tame. Incidentally,
whoever handled the production did a miserable job. There were two
consecutive LP sides of, as I recall, roughly 16 and 19 minutes; a four
minute scene was split half in two between the two sides. There is no
recording date that I can find, but I have to wonder if it were
transferred from 78s.
Allen
Kerrison
wrote:
> TareeDawg wrote:
> > Gerard wrote:
>
> > > The LP is available on eBay:
>
>
>
>
> > > But the cover does not look like how I remember it.
>
> > Not how it looked like to me either. Didn't it have a photo of D L-J
> > on it?
>
> > Ray Hall
>
> I don't think it had (that photo).
> I remember the cover being more colorful (not red only). Possibly I had a Dutch
> or German issue.
The photo of David L-J is on the reverse of the Philips LP sleeve.
LookingGlass
>
> A very good recording of the OV which has not been mentioned yet is
> Dohnányi with Cleveland (Decca) which could also be described as "very
> well done musically and not *overdone* and very well recorded". It
> also has a great effect which I really like, in one place where the
> piccolo flute holds a long high note, the player overblows and bends
> the intonation of the note upwards very slightly as he crescendos
> towards the middle of the note. This is obviously intended and a very
> eerie, howling effect.
I enjoy the Stokowski version for similar reasons. The strings are
used to great effect making statements quite high up on the strings,
and it sounds like some of the string players are *tapping * the
bows...a lightly percussive sound. It adds a *chilly* effect to the
already devilish music.
M forever
I don't see any "similar reasons" here, frankly. The effect in the
Dohnányi recording I described is striking but achieved with very
sparing means, not really changing or "improving" what Mussorgsky
actually wrote.
The Stokowski version (at least the one I know, which is a 60s
recording with the LSO, I don't know if there are any others) which I
hadn't heard in a very long time but just revisited inspired by this
discussion, almost made me puke.
It seemed interesting for about half a minute but it's so over the top
and while R-K's version is basically a reduction and a slightly toned
down version of the wild material Mussorgsky wrote, the Stokowski
version reduces the material even further to just a few motives which
are repeated over and over ad nauseam with ever more exaggerated
orchestration effects. Sure, this is a witches' sabbath of some kind,
but where Mussorgsky's ideas are varied and athmospheric and not
milked to death, this version sounds like a really bad film score, it
kind of out-Fantasias Disney's Dinosaurs.
Worst of all, all the Russian flavor is completely gone and replaced
by a few boo scare effects. And the pseudo-Wagnerian ending is a
complete perversion and totally out of place in this music.
LookingGlass
>
> The Stokowski version (at least the one I know, which is a 60s
> recording with the LSO, I don't know if there are any others) which I
> hadn't heard in a very long time but just revisited inspired by this
> discussion, almost made me puke.
I enjoy all versions of Mussorgsky's highly original, inventive, and
evocative music.
You have a very *sensitive* stomach.
Kerrison
I wonder if other conductors' recordings of the Stokowski arrangement
would have the same emetic effect as his own Phase 4 Stereo version
evidently does. Knussen, Bamert and Serebrier have all recorded it
with conventional miking and indeed Serebrier's CD was chosen as
Record of the Month by the Gramophone's editor in 2005. The review,
lifted from their on-line archive, starts thus:
"Stokowski's orchestrations, as flamboyant and full of flair as his
interpretations as a conductor, have increasingly been accepted and
welcomed on disc, a good sign that rigidly purist attitudes have
nowadays softened. This Naxos collection of Stokowski's arrangements
of Mussorgsky under José Serebrier follows directly on Matthias
Bamert's and Oliver Knussen's discs, and quite apart from the budget
price proves the most formidable rival, offering outstanding
performances by the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, brilliantly
recorded in sound if anything even more spectacular and more cleanly
focused than that on the discs from Chandos and DG."
Well, it doesn't seem to have made this particular critic feel queasy,
at any rate.
LookingGlass
>
> I wonder if other conductors' recordings of the Stokowski arrangement
> would have the same emetic effect as his own Phase 4 Stereo version
> evidently does. Knussen, Bamert and Serebrier have all recorded it
> with conventional miking and indeed Serebrier's CD was chosen as
> Record of the Month by the Gramophone's editor in 2005. The review,
> lifted from their on-line archive, starts thus:
>
> "Stokowski's orchestrations, as flamboyant and full of flair as his
> interpretations as a conductor, have increasingly been accepted and
> welcomed on disc, a good sign that rigidly purist attitudes have
> nowadays softened. This Naxos collection of Stokowski's arrangements
> of Mussorgsky under José Serebrier follows directly on Matthias
> Bamert's and Oliver Knussen's discs, and quite apart from the budget
> price proves the most formidable rival, offering outstanding
> performances by the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, brilliantly
> recorded in sound if anything even more spectacular and more cleanly
> focused than that on the discs from Chandos and DG."
>
> Well, it doesn't seem to have made this particular critic feel queasy,
> at any rate.
I assume most folks here, like me, *imprinted* on the RK version of
Bald Mountain as a child (1956). I fell in love with the *cragginess*
of the piece and the glorious coloring imbued by the musically graphic
depiction of a witch's sabbat. I'm not sure if I saw Disney's FANTASIA
first, or did I hear it on radio? The *music* entered my DNA at that
point.
All the versions offer something in my opinion. I even listen to a
piano transcription of the RK version of this piece to hear the inner
workings. When someone records a piano transcription of the *original*
Mussorgsky version, I will listen to that too.
Compelling music.
M forever
Not really. I don't have a "purist's" attitude and I don't mind the
occasional "over the top" interpretation or arrangement, and I don't
mind musically overly explicitly gesturing performances in general
either. Better that than tired and mindless routine performances. But
this is just way too much.
Wait a moment, let me rephrase that. What bothers me isn't really that
it's "too much" - it's actually way too little. Just a few elements of
the music repeated over and over again with increasingly exaggerated
gimmicky instrumental effects.
It leaves very little of "Mussorgsky's highly original, inventive, and
evocative music", as you put it so well. What little is left isn't
very original and inventive anymore after the material has been
repeated for the nth time, and it certainly isn't evocative anymore
either, exaggerated in an overly explicit and distorted spielbergian
way.
Of course, I don't want to spoil your enjoyment of this version as
well as any others, but my impression is that that doesn't influence
you anyway, so that's OK. It's definitely not for me. But then I am
already not very happy with the R-K version as it also leaves out a
lot of M's more original and unusual ideas and just focuses on a
smaller amount of material processed in a more classical way. Which is
of course the way R-K himself composed, very different from M's much
freer and at times almost improvisational style. I guess that's
something R-K disapproved of as his aim was to gain a sort of academic
legitimacy for Russian national music at the time, and apparently he
felt that that could only be gained by marrying Russian musical
material with Western evolved techniques.
M forever
I actually have the Knussen disc but haven't gotten around to
listening to "Night" on it yet. I listened to "Pictures" and found his
orchestration OK, but pretty amateurish compared to Ravel's. Stokowski
is evidently only concerned with achieving the maximum superficial
effects for their own sake. I can't get to the CD right now to check
what effect this performance has on me, but I doubt it would be much
different. It wasn't actually the orchestration so much that I don't
like, but the way that the music is reduced to just a few elements
which get repeated over and over, with most of its substance discarded
and the rest just blown up to boo scare you endlessly.
M forever
Was "Night" in Fantasia, too?
LookingGlass
I am a *Russo-phile*. It must be the mystery of growing up in the
1950s, with little to no real information for a child. I was
fascinated by the folk drawings of Bilibin. Stravinsky's *folk*
work...Firebird, Petrushka, and Le Sacre du Printemps. All images that
were really *foreign* to me...and enticing to an artist. And, of
course, the very *dynamic* music...also *foreign*, and unique to me
until I became more familiar with the music of Russia. A passion for
Liadov.
I read the new Mussorgsky biography some time ago. It is amazing we
have what we DO have of Mussorgsky's genius.
Doug McDonald
with chorus. You can hear the whole thing free. (both the "night"
and the opera). Its an effective piece with chorus. This is apparently
a "completed by" version.
Doug McDonald
LookingGlass
Famously so.
LookingGlass
>
> On Dec 25, 5:42 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Was "Night" in Fantasia, too?
>
> Famously so.
...found it.
M forever
I understand what you mean. I grew up in West Berlin in the 70s, in a
divided city in a divided country in a divided world, and we were the
last outpost of the Western world right at the borderline, actually an
island already inside the "other" world which we could literally see
over the wall and which we knew stretched from there until the end of
the world (or at least the Eurasian landmass). In any case, a vast and
mysterious other world. The fact that this world was behind the Iron
Curtain, very different and in a Cold War with "our" world made it all
the more fascinating and any kind of information about what was going
on in the "other world" very interesting.
Of course, if we got a visa, we could cross the Iron Curtain from our
direction, but that was very different from popping across the border
to Denmark or Holland or France. Those were simply other countries.
What was on the other side of the Iron Curtain was another world. It
felt like being in a different time zone, on a different planet even.
That world was dominated by the USSR, so naturally, Russian culture
and history was particularly interesting and important to know.
Besides the contemporary political situation, Russia also has a really
interesting culture and history anyway, and the historical clash
between Germany and the USSR in the bloodiest war in history added yet
another layer of interest.
We could get East German TV in West Berlin, so we got first hand
insights into their world. Apart from the political propaganda, they
played a lot of Russian movies, historical and WWII epics, and also a
lot of movies for kids which we loved to watch because the Russian
fairy tale movies were especially colorful and exotic. Czech kids
movies were great, too. So I got many early impressions about Russian
culture and history directly from the source. They also played Russian
movies in Russian with subtitles in a series entitled "For Friends of
the Russian Language" which they naturally assumed would be everybody
since it was the USSR which had freed them from the tyranny of Western
capitalism and imperialism...
But many of those movies were great, too. Historical and especially
WWII movies were very different from what Western countries produced,
less about cool war heroes with cigars in their mouths, and more about
the immense suffering and sacrifices of the Russian people.
> I read the new Mussorgsky biography some time ago. It is amazing we
> have what we DO have of Mussorgsky's genius.
I agree, and its sad that there is so comparatively little. That's why
I find nothing of interest in Stokowski's caricature. As a self-
professed Russophile, I am sure you will recognize there is nothing
"Russian" in there, and not much left of Mussorgsky either.
Thanks for looking up that clip, BTW. Fortunately, I never saw
"Fantasia" when I was a kid so I did not get imprinted on that
horrible kitschfest and it did not contaminate my associations with
the music raped in it. I did see it later but mercifully, it left so
little an impression on me that I have been able to delete most of the
memory of it from my brain. I do agree that the Stokowski version is
actually a good soundtrack for *that*, but I am not interested in it
at all. I would rather like to see some of those Russian fairy tale
movies again which I saw as a kid.
Christopher Howell
>
> To throw something else in the pot--Years ago, I bought a Eurodisc
> cutout of The Fair at Sorochinsk, conducted by Aronowitsch (German form,
> naturally) which I burned to CD a few years ago. The notes credited
> Vassarion Shebalin for a "new arrangement". According to one reference
> on Google, he merely "completed" it. Does anyone know how much he
> meddled with it? As I recall, Night is rather tame. Incidentally,
> whoever handled the production did a miserable job. There were two
> consecutive LP sides of, as I recall, roughly 16 and 19 minutes; a four
> minute scene was split half in two between the two sides. There is no
> recording date that I can find, but I have to wonder if it were
> transferred from 78s.
> Allen
If this was Juri Aronovich (various spellings have been tried) he
conducted a lot in Italy in the 1970s, at which time he was aged about
50, so his career couldn't possibly go back to 78s. A big-boned but
highly personalized style (wild tempo changes in Tchaikovsky, fugato
section cut from end of Dvorak 6 etc). His DG Manfred with the LSO was
liked by a few and much criticized by others for these reasons and
didn't lead to more work for DG (the Rachmaninov with Vasary came
before).
Chris Howell
Romy the Cat
most talented NATURAL composer. There are some followers of this view
on musical academic thinking. To me the naturally and the raw un-
institutionalized power of the Mussorgsky’s harmonies is very much
attractive and in way have no analogies. But I am a Cat person not a
dog person…
Allen
would like to find a decent recording of Fair. Amazon lists one, but
shows it as currently unavailable. Perhaps some day....
Allen
Bob Lombard
> Christopher Howell wrote:
>> If this was Juri Aronovich (various spellings have been tried) he
>> conducted a lot in Italy in the 1970s, at which time he was aged about
>> 50, so his career couldn't possibly go back to 78s. A big-boned but
>> highly personalized style (wild tempo changes in Tchaikovsky, fugato
>> section cut from end of Dvorak 6 etc). His DG Manfred with the LSO was
>> liked by a few and much criticized by others for these reasons and
>> didn't lead to more work for DG (the Rachmaninov with Vasary came
>> before).
>> Chris Howell
>>
> That would be it. In my opinion, Mussorgsky could do no wrong, so I
> would like to find a decent recording of Fair. Amazon lists one, but
> shows it as currently unavailable. Perhaps some day....
> Allen
It seems to me that Steve Emerson has the Fair on Melodiya. So do I,
but of course I can't find it.
bl
--
Music, a few books, a few movies
LombardMusic
http://www.amazon.com/shops/A3NRY9P3TNNXNA
Doug McDonald
>>
> That would be it. In my opinion, Mussorgsky could do no wrong, so I
> would like to find a decent recording of Fair. Amazon lists one, but
> shows it as currently unavailable. Perhaps some day....
> Allen
available at
or go to the site and look through operas.
I did not download it, just copied the first track off
the web.
Doug McDonald
LookingGlass
(snip)
> I do agree that the Stokowski version is
> actually a good soundtrack for *that*, but I am not interested in it
> at all. I would rather like to see some of those Russian fairy tale
> movies again which I saw as a kid.
Thank you.
I have a number of those Russian fairy-tales filmed by Ptuschko on
DVD...ILIA MUROMETZ, RUSSLAN AND LYUDMILA, SNOW MAIDEN, TALE OF TZAR
SALTAN, SADKO, etc. Available with a search.
Lawrence Chalmers
(along with Bartok's MM?) and recorded on dg?
M forever
> Is this original version the one that Esa Pekka Salonnen conducted
> (along with Bartok's MM?) and recorded on dg?
It is. But the recording isn't particularly good in any respect -
orchestrally, musically, sonically. While I welcome every recording
which uses the OV rather than R-K's version (of which there are plenty
of recordings anyway), this one is superfluous.
I wonder why Gergiev chose the R-K version when he recorded the piece
in Vienna. Somehow, I would have expected him to prefer the OV. Same
with Sinopoli. But they both did the R-K version.
Sol L. Siegel
news:827d0083-20fa-4fe6...@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> The original version has now been recorded several times, beginning
> with a British LP in the 1970s. I'm sorry that I cannot now remember
> details. (The first one conducted by David Lloyd-Jones, perhaps?)
All these posting induced me to drag out the long OOP Collins disc with
Jacek Kaspszyk - an exciting reading. It's an interesting contrast to his
Ravel Pictures, which are more deliberate and songful than the norm.
--
- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA
David Oberman
>All these posting induced me to drag out the long OOP Collins disc with
>Jacek Kaspszyk - an exciting reading. It's an interesting contrast to his
>Ravel Pictures, which are more deliberate and songful than the norm.
I'm not familiar with the Jacek Kaspszyk "Pictures." How does Kaspszyk
deal with the simultaneous deliberateness & lyricism of the Bydlo
segment?
_______
Assassins!
-- Toscanini, to his orchestra
Sol L. Siegel
news:rt4tj5dbnj71ac4e8...@4ax.com:
> I'm not familiar with the Jacek Kaspszyk "Pictures." How does Kaspszyk
> deal with the simultaneous deliberateness & lyricism of the Bydlo
> segment?
By making it even more deliberate, and playing it as a single legato line.
YMMV, but it works for me.
Gerard
> Dontait...@aol.com wrote in
> news:827d0083-20fa-4fe6...@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
>
> > The original version has now been recorded several times,
> > beginning with a British LP in the 1970s. I'm sorry that I cannot
> > now remember details. (The first one conducted by David
> > Lloyd-Jones, perhaps?)
>
> All these posting induced me to drag out the long OOP Collins disc
> with Jacek Kaspszyk
It should induce me too (again). But as fas as I remember his performance is not
to be preferred over any of Abbado's.