Was Ansermet an anti-semite? Just ask Adolf Busch.
pianomaven
> http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/142289-bush-cancels-...
Read recently that in Tully Potter's bio of Adolf Busch, the violinist
would have nothing whatsoever to do with our old friend Ernest
Ansermet. Turns out Ernie cavorted willingly with another Adolf and
his friends, so he became persona non grata for Busch, Serkin et al.
Ansermet continued to perform in the Third Reich during WW II, you
see.
TD
David O.
<1pian...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Read recently that in Tully Potter's bio of Adolf Busch, the violinist
>would have nothing whatsoever to do with our old friend Ernest
>Ansermet. Turns out Ernie cavorted willingly with another Adolf and
>his friends, so he became persona non grata for Busch, Serkin et al.
>Ansermet continued to perform in the Third Reich during WW II, you
>see.
I think everybody has a little antisemite in him.
Terry
Where, exactly? And with which orchestras?
--
Cheers, Terry
pianomaven
I think you'll have to read Potter's exhaustive biography - 1,423
pages in two volumes (75. UK Pounds) - to find out the details. Potter
is nothing if not detailed in his examination of these matters
according to the review in International Record Review. He even re-
examines the Furtwangler case, not to mention Claudio Arrau, who
pissed of AB by continuing to work in Germany in 1939.
TD
Abbeddrose Bierce
Adolph Busch was the concertmaster for the inaugural Lucerne Festival
organized by Ansermet. Toscanini invited Ansermet to conduct NBC after
the war. Something is wrong with your facts, Tommy
Abbedd
M forever
I don't know where he appeared during the 3rd Reich, and while he may
not have been a fanatic and openly anti-semitic, his own writings show
very clearly racist tendencies, as I pointed out recently in this
thread:
or
pianomaven
> On Sun, 06 Feb 2011 17:12:22 -0800, David O.
>
I guess you'll just have to do some reading, Jeffrey. I know it will
be hard for you, as you don't much care for the truth, either about
yourself - no genius, you - or about others.
TD
Abbeddrose Bierce
Only an idiot believes everything he reads. I read about some bit of
blasphemy called the Holy Trinity. Fortunately, I am too intelligent
to believe it
Casper the holy ghost
The holiest ghost you know...
Abbedd
M forever
wrote:
Fortunately, too, we have statements from Ansermet himself which
document his anti-semitism. So there is absolutely no room for doubt
there.
O
<DavidO...@verizon.net> wrote:
Not me. I had mine removed.
-Owen
M forever
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:15:56 -0800 (PST), pianomaven
>
> >Read recently that in Tully Potter's bio of Adolf Busch, the violinist
> >would have nothing whatsoever to do with our old friend Ernest
> >Ansermet. Turns out Ernie cavorted willingly with another Adolf and
> >his friends, so he became persona non grata for Busch, Serkin et al.
> >Ansermet continued to perform in the Third Reich during WW II, you
> >see.
>
> I think everybody has a little antisemite in him.
Why do you think that?
Gerard
You think we're going to read your old novels while you rewrite most of them
daily (when there's no work for you)?
pianomaven
wrote:
Belief is one thing. Facts are not subject to belief.
TD
Abbeddrose Bierce
Moron
Abbedd
pianomaven
> On Mon, 7 Feb 2011 03:14:43 -0800 (PST), pianomaven
>
>
>
>
>
So, you have no argument at all. Quelle surprise! Poor Ansermet,
allowed to swing in the wind by his most devoted - and blind -
advocate.
TD
Abbeddrose Bierce
Never argue with morons
Abbedd
Terry
Just one or two examples would be helpful. I take it you have access to
this book?
--
Cheers, Terry
Eric Grunin
> > would have nothing whatsoever to do with our old friend Ernest
> > Ansermet. Turns out Ernie cavorted willingly with another Adolf and
> > his friends, so he became persona non grata for Busch, Serkin et al.
> > Ansermet continued to perform in the Third Reich during WW II, you
> > see.
>
> > TD
>
> Where, exactly? And with which orchestras?
> --
> Cheers, Terry
I have a 1943 Eroica with Ansermet and the Vienna Phil.
Regards,
Eric Grunin
grunin.com/eroica
Dontait...@aol.com
I recently obtained Potter's Busch biography and can supply what he
writes about Ansermet and Adolf Busch.
After World War II, Busch had an exchange of letters with Otto Maag,
the nephew of the great conductor Fritz Steinbach, the music critic of
Basel's National Zeitung (and father of the conductor Peter Maag). But
to back up a little:
On page 784 of Potter's volume II, he writes about 1945 "When
friends reminded Busch that he had been right all along about Hitler's
intentions, he answered sadly: 'I didn't say enough.' His response to
the news from the Continent was to swear that when he went there
again, he would not make music with anyone who had worked with the
Nazis." In the exchange of letters between Busch and Maag, when Maag
writes about how musicians who cooperated with the Nazis in one way or
another were succeeding in Switzerland, "Maag names Furtwaengler,
Ansermet, 'who was still conducting Christmas concerts in Salzburg in
1942,' and Edwin Fischer." Maag also accused Casals and the conductor
Volkmar Andreae of collaborating with the Nazis, but Busch rejected
that. On page 785: "Busch paid no heed to what was said about Casals
and continued his personal and professional relationship with Andreae,
but he refused to have anything more to do with Ansermet. He had
contributed a warm message to a wartime Festschrift to mark the
latter's 60th birthday and the silver jubilee of the Orchestre de la
Suisse Romande, but at that stage had not known about Ansermet's guest
appearances with the Berlin Philharmonic in 1942 and 1943." Footnote
about the Festschrift: "Hommage a Ernest Ansermet, Merguerat,
Lausanne, 1943, p. 130."
Potter writes later that among the musicians with whom Busch refused
to have any contact after 1945 was the pianist Friedrich Wuerher, who
apparently was a Nazi sympathiser. When Busch learned that they'd both
been engaged for some festival after the war, he said he wouldn't
appear if Wuehrer did. Wuehrer withdrew.
Potter's Busch biography is an extraordinary achievement. I've
learned an immense amount and haven't yet begun the extensive
appendices. For me, it's worth the relatively great expense. And the
discography looks superb.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:15:56 -0800 (PST), pianomaven
>
> >Read recently that in Tully Potter's bio of Adolf Busch, the violinist
> >would have nothing whatsoever to do with our old friend Ernest
> >Ansermet. Turns out Ernie cavorted willingly with another Adolf and
> >his friends, so he became persona non grata for Busch, Serkin et al.
> >Ansermet continued to perform in the Third Reich during WW II, you
> >see.
>
> I think everybody has a little antisemite in him.
Chaim Weizman? David Ben-Gurion? Menachem Begin? Golda Meir? King
David?
Wow.
Don Tait
Ricky Jimenez
>Ansermet, 'who was still conducting Christmas concerts in Salzburg in
>1942,' .......... but at that stage had not known about Ansermet's guest
>appearances with the Berlin Philharmonic in 1942 and 1943."
Is this the extent of the evidence for Ansermet being an anti-semite?
So far, well short of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Dontait...@aol.com
> On Mon, 7 Feb 2011 12:17:32 -0800 (PST), Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
> >Ansermet, 'who was still conducting Christmas concerts in Salzburg in
> >1942,' .......... but at that stage had not known about Ansermet's guest
> >appearances with the Berlin Philharmonic in 1942 and 1943."
>
> Is this the extent of the evidence for Ansermet being an anti-semite?
> So far, well short of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
I didn't say Ansermet was an anti-Semite, and Tully Potter doesn't
either. What he says is that Adolf Busch was angered to learn in 1945
that Ansermet conducted in Salzburg and Berlin during World War II,
thus in Busch's eyes cooperating with the Nazis. Previous posters in
this thread did say that Ansermet was anti-Semitic, and posted quotes
to bolster their point. Perhaps you could read all of the thread.
Don Tait
pianomaven
No, I do not.
I read the lengthy review in International Record Review. 75 pounds
for 1400 pages may seem a good deal for you, but I am not that
interested in Adolf Busch.
Are you?
TD
pianomaven
No point if their mind is already made up, Don.
Frankly, I think this is all a tempest in a tea-pot. But clearly for
Busch Ansermet was simply beyond the pale. Lord only knows why he
attacked Casals, but sensitivities ran high at that time; everything
was fresh, or dead!!!
TD
Taffy Brendel
Reading really isn't your thing it it?
Why don't you go back to Don's post and read
how Busch reacted to Casals.
Taffy
Dontait...@aol.com
As I wrote above, Adolf Busch never attacked Casals. The Swiss music
critic Otto Maag did in letters to Busch around 1945, and Busch, a
steadfast anti-Nazi, rejected anything of the sort about Casals.
'Tis all in Potter's epic two-volume Busch biography.
Don Tait
pianomaven
Smacks of he said, she said, and then he said she said, and then she
said he said.
Moreover, I cannot think that anyone today cares what Otto Maag -
whose only claim to fame is having sired Peter Maag - thought about
Casals in 1945.
All of this is the meaning of life itself to some, including Tully
Potter, I guess, but it rings fairly hollow these days, Don. And
hardly a reason to wade through 1400 pages of biography.
I prefer to read John Banville, you know.
TD
M forever
No, it only "smacks" of you didn't read properly what Tait wrote.
> Moreover, I cannot think that anyone today cares what Otto Maag -
> whose only claim to fame is having sired Peter Maag - thought about
> Casals in 1945.
I don't think so either. And nobody said anybody did. The person of
interest here was Busch, not Maag.
M forever
The quotes I provided *from Ansermet's own writings* show beyond any
doubt that while Ansermet may not have been a "raving anti-semite", he
clearly thought in racist terms and had things to say about Jews in
general which are clearly racist in nature and which echo a lot of the
time-worn clichés about Jews which led to hardcore racism.
And - he wrote that *in the 1960s*. Clearly what had happened did not
make him think.
There is a certain tragedy in the fact that our friend Ansermetniac
calls anyone an "anti-semite" whenever it pleases him, but he did not
know that his great idol Ansermet actually *was* and anti-semite; that
he didn't care what happened to Jews and continued to travel to
Germany and Austria for guest-conducting engagements; and that he even
put his prejudices in writing. Clearly Ansermetniac hasn't even read
the book his great idol wrote.
Ricky Jimenez
It wasn't in this thread but an earlier one with a similar title. On
Jan 6, M Forever posted:
"It is called "Les fondements de la musique dans la conscience
humaine" ("The Foundations of Music in the Human Consciousness") which
amidst endless pages of endless pseudo-philosophical waffling also
contains some very interesting views by Ansermet about Jews.
He puzzles the reader by rebuking Webern's call for "Zukunftsmusik"
and then calls it a "Jewish idea". It's not clear why, perhaps he
thought Webern had been contaminated by Schönberg somehow. It is clear
though that he thinks that's a really bad thing.
But it gets more mysterious and more explicit at the same time.
Ansermet lets us know that "the Jew is a me who speaks as though he
were an I".
Aha. It's again not entirely clear what that means, but it is clear
that it's somehow a really bad thing. Because "from that ambiguity or
confusion results a double deformity of thought" which mean that "the
Jew does not have a sense of transcendency" but it makes him "suitable
for the handling of money".
Ansermet also lets us know that the "history of Western music" could
just as well have done "without the Jews".
Pretty interesting stuff. And that was written in the 1960s"
OK, assuming these quotes are correct, it is proven beyond a
reasonable doubt. According to this discography,
http://www.scona.ch/ansermet/discografia.php ,
he did record Bloch, Dukas, Mendelssohn and Offenbach, no Mahler or
Schönberg.
M forever
You can go to Google Books, search for "Les fondements de la musique
dans la conscience humaine" and then search for "juif" in the book -
the quotes pop right up.
> According to this discography,http://www.scona.ch/ansermet/discografia.php,
> he did record Bloch, Dukas, Mendelssohn and Offenbach, no Mahler or
> Schönberg.
That he performed some pieces by some Jewish composers doesn't mean
anything. Again, he was not a "raving" anti-semite but his general
views about Jews are very clear. Those may not have been strong enough
to prevent him from performing the occasional work by the occasional
Jewish composer. But they are still very clear and unmistakeably
racist in character and content.
pianomaven
> You can go to Google Books, search for "Les fondements de la musique
> dans la conscience humaine" and then search for "juif" in the book -
> the quotes pop right up.
I think we can all let you do that, as you seem to be obsessed with
the subject.
TD
M forever
One doesn't need to be "obsessed" with that to do this little
research. It only takes seconds.
But I guess your severely limited bandwidth would not allow you to
search Google Books anyway.
"HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA"
Man, you are so fucking stupid and it is so easy to take your own
words and slap you around with them, it almost makes me feel guilty.
Like pushing around a retarded kid. Don't you want to claim senility
in your defense? It would make things so much easier for you.
Terry
Thank you. Interesting.
--
Cheers, Terry
Terry
Not that much, but I find Ansermet a very interesting Person.
--
Cheers, Terry
MickeyBoy
>
> - Show quoted text -
Just to continue stirring up this pot a bit, I'll point out that Felix
Mendelssohn, the composer of the Reformation Symphony, was not a Jew,
but a Lutheran his entire life. I am aware of the Nazi definition of
Jewishness as entirely racial, of how conservative Jews define
Jewishness, of Messianic Jews, and of 'getaufte Juden' such as
Klemperer. But I submit that there is no reason not to accept
Menselssohn's self identification as a Christian and to let it go at
that.
M forever
I agree, and I would think that any reasonable person would agree,
too, but racists who have such racial definitions obviously don't.
That is part of the problem with racists. Ansermet's writing very much
suggest that he didn't make his "observations" strictly about
percieved Jewish cultural traits - which in itself would be borderline
or across the border racist in the broadly generalized way he makes
these comments, too - but that he thought that these traits are
somehow inherent in the "Jewish race" as such. In any case, even a
"moderate" form of racism such as this appears to be is more inclined
to tolerate active racism, and so it is no surprise that he apparently
had no problems working in Nazi Germany/Austria.
I have also encountered the opposite form of racism - Jewish people
claiming that Mendelssohn *was* a Jew no matter what and that it was a
terrible crime of his parents to raise him as a non-Jew.
pianomaven
> On Feb 7, 10:15 pm, pianomaven <1pianoma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 7, 7:38 pm, M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > You can go to Google Books, search for "Les fondements de la musique
> > > dans la conscience humaine" and then search for "juif" in the book -
> > > the quotes pop right up.
>
> > I think we can all let you do that, as you seem to be obsessed with
> > the subject.
>
> > TD
>
> One doesn't need to be "obsessed" with that to do this little
> research. It only takes seconds.
Seconds become minutes. Minutes become hours. Hours become days.
And with you all of these have become years, wherein your obsession
with your own sordid past - sorry, dude, we don't buy that "My parents
worked for the opposition in Germany during WW II) - has overwhelmed
us all.
Nazis? Oh, there were no Nazis in Germany.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
TD
pianomaven
Oh, good. Then you and Jeffrey Powell should have a great deal to
discuss.
TD
pianomaven
Correct.
But he was sufficiently Jewish for Hitler to ban his music. It's all
about his mother, you see. Very primitive, I agree, but that's the way
religions work: on fairy tales and such like.
TD
M forever
My parents didn't work for the opposition during WWII. I never said
they did. They didn't work at all. They went to kindergarten, at least
as long as the bombing raids allowed them to.
> Nazis? Oh, there were no Nazis in Germany.
I never said that. On the contrary, I have always discussed German
history very openly. There is absolutely no basis in anything I ever
said for you to say this.
Except of course your own debilitating cultural inferiority complex.
Rene Gagnaux
<1pian...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Not that much, but I find Ansermet a very interesting Person.
>
>Oh, good. Then you and Jeffrey Powell should have a great deal to
>discuss.
Really?! Jeffrey Powell is not an interesting person (he know only ass...
aehhh... mouthpieces...), Ernest Ansermet is a very interesting
personality.
Salut
René
pianomaven
> On Tue, 8 Feb 2011 04:00:09 -0800 (PST), pianomaven
>
> >> Not that much, but I find Ansermet a very interesting Person.
>
> >Oh, good. Then you and Jeffrey Powell should have a great deal to
> >discuss.
>
> Really?! Jeffrey Powell is not an interesting person (he know only ass...
> aehhh... mouthpieces...), Ernest Ansermet is a very interesting
> personality.
Perhaps you should check how you are quoting.
I NEVER said that JP was an "interesting Person".
He isn't, but at least he loves music, which is more than you can say
about many here.
TD
Terry
Never heard of him.
--
Cheers, Terry