Bryce Morrison replies to Rod Williams about Hatto
Tom Deacon
article about Hatto. EM's recent bizarre note about the Wikipedia
article on Hatto (I have only just read this and will comment further
in another post) caused me to dig out Williams' article which is cited
in the Wikipedia entry.
Anyway, others may be interested in reading BM's take on the Brahms
Picos, and also Muraro's Ravel La Valse.
The insidious thing about WBC's releases was that he actually
"improved" the originals, which, if you think about it, is very
interesting.
FYI
In this letter to the editor of Intelligent Life, Bryce Morrison, a
celebrated teacher and critic, replies to our article on the Joyce
Hatto affair, by Rod Williams, who said critics were "fooled" by
pirated recordings put out under Hatto's name...
A letter to the editor of INTELLIGENT LIFE magazine
In his article on "Hattogate", as it is now unaffectionately know, Rod
Williams pays me a blush-making compliment before delivering the coup
de grâce. For one joyful moment I thought he had lined me up with F.R.
Leavis, a truly great critic in another field, whose about-turn on
Dickens once stirred a hornet's nest of controversy in academic
circles. Having once admired Dickens as a great entertainer rather than
a great novelist, Leavis went on to produce an entire book dedicated to
Dickens's greatness, to the essentially Shakespearian quality of his
novels. I make this point because it is possible to alter, or, at any
rate, modify one's responses over the years.
But the situation regarding Joyce Hatto is another matter. Williams is
correct when he tells his readers that recordings by Yefim Bronfman and
Joyce Hatto are one and the same. How then could I criticise the former
and praise the latter? Clearly, he claims, my judgment was "warped" (he
is fond of words such as "duped", "fooled", and "tricked") by a
sentimental notion or legend, that of a terminally sick woman who
apparently played with awe-inspiring brilliance.
My reply is simple. The performances are identical except in one vital
aspect. I have listened side by side to Sony's and Concert Artist's
offerings [the Bronfman and the "Hatto" recordings respectively], only
to find that their sound worlds are different. Sound is not everything,
yet it can subtly, even radically, alter one's appraisal (many record
companies flatter their artists shamelessly, making "small" pianists
sound "big", or casting a tonal bloom on artists sadly missing from
live performances). What is cold from Sony, shedding an oddly
impersonal, fluorescent light on the soloist, becomes gratifyingly warm
on Concert Artist. What is clear is that Bronfman's performance has not
been lifted wholesale, but altered to suggest a different quality or
calibre.
Of course, Williams may reply in his defence that professional, as
opposed to amateur, musicians should be able to listen through such
alterations (as one is compelled to do in the case of Rachmaninov's own
1919-1942 recordings) and also achieve a proper objectivity by not
being beguiled by personality over music (reviews commencing, for
example, "Ashkenazy's Chopin is self-recommending", are sadly familiar).
But the matter is not so simple. To repeat, sound or sonority can
greatly shift and alter one's perceptions. The same considerations
apply to a comparison between Roger Muraro's disc of Ravel's La Valse,
and the later attribution to Hatto. Again, the sound has been altered
to suggest something altogether grander, more suitably violent and
theatrical than the original.
Of course, William Barrington-Coupe was more cunning than many have
suggested, hanging on to his trickery until his cover was finally
blown. And, as Julian Lloyd Webber, in a brief but telling article for
the Daily Telegraph, explained, there is no skin off anybody's nose
except that of the perpetrator of this deception. His grubby and
cynical con should be suitably penalised with hefty fines, or a return
to the prison he formerly inhabited, where he was incarcerated for
fraud.
Bryce Morrison
Simon Roberts
>
>I was unaware until now that BM had bothered to reply to Mr. WIlliams'
>article about Hatto. EM's recent bizarre note about the Wikipedia
>article on Hatto (I have only just read this and will comment further
>in another post) caused me to dig out Williams' article which is cited
>in the Wikipedia entry.
>
>Anyway, others may be interested in reading BM's take on the Brahms
>Picos, and also Muraro's Ravel La Valse.
Perhaps we would be, but the letter you quote below doesn't address the Brahms
cti. And whatever else Barrington-Ffraud may have done, he didn't make the two
recordings sound similar: the sonorities of the orchestras, the engineering,
etc., sound radically different from each other. As I've said before, I don't
expect anyone to be able to identify Ashkenazy of Bronfman blind (though, since
you've repeatedly told us that BM never forgets anything, perhaps he should be
able to); but it would be odd if these differences weren't commented on.
Simon
Tom Deacon
As I've said before, I don't
> expect anyone to be able to identify Ashkenazy of Bronfman blind (though, since
> you've repeatedly told us that BM never forgets anything, perhaps he should be
> able to); but it would be odd if these differences weren't commented on.
My experience of BM was fashioned at the 1982 Tchaikovsky Competition,
which he attended, as did I. He assisted me in presenting the results
on CBC Stereo in a series of broadcasts (about 15 hours in all). I was
simply staggered that he could recall each and every detail of
performances he had heard over the three weeks of the competition. Not
just the outstanding participants, but also the many, many, many also
rans. (100 pianists started out at the beginning). He could remember
them all, in detail, and describe what he liked and disliked about
their interpretations of various pieces. Without notes. I was properly
gobbsmacked! As would you have been, I am sure.
This experience led me to make the statement about Bryce, and I would
stand on it to this day, the Brahms concerti with 15 years distance
between auditions to the contrary notwithstanding.
It is always easy to take on a personality like Bryce Morrison. One
should do it carefully, I would say, as you might be forced to back
down. Way down, when faced with the man in full flight of his
considerable abilities. He has his prejudices, of course, as we all do.
But in general, I think he usually hits the mark, regardless of his
Bronfman/Hatto confusion, or the inability to recognize VA instantly in
a standard repertoire concerto.
TD
Tom Deacon
> So Bryce Morrison is a cowardly cunt who produces vast amounts of hot
> gas. What is the novelty here?
>
> Cynical Kraut
Thus spake ANONYMOUS, brave poster.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
TD
Matthew Silverstein
> What is cold from Sony, shedding an oddly impersonal, fluorescent light
> on the soloist, becomes gratifyingly warm on Concert Artist. What is
> clear is that Bronfman's performance has not been lifted wholesale, but
> altered to suggest a different quality or calibre.
This is rather disingenuous. After all, Bronfman's *performance* has not
been altered at all. What's been altered is merely the recorded sound of
that performance.
Matty
Tom Deacon
<msilve...@sbcglobal.net> said:
Disingenuous? As in dishonest?
I think not. The sound HAS been altered, giving the performance an
entirely different quality.
TD
her...@yahoo.com
> On 2009-06-10 15:13:14 -0400, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> said
>
>
> My experience of BM was fashioned at the 1982 Tchaikovsky Competition,
> which he attended, as did I. He assisted me in presenting the results
> on CBC Stereo in a series of broadcasts (about 15 hours in all). I was
> simply staggered that he could recall each and every detail of
> performances he had heard over the three weeks of the competition. Not
> just the outstanding participants, but also the many, many, many also
> rans. (100 pianists started out at the beginning). He could remember
> them all, in detail, and describe what he liked and disliked about
> their interpretations of various pieces. Without notes. I was properly
> gobbsmacked!
Mr Morrison's defense is very poor. Yes, WBC jiggled some controls,
made the recording a little less like Sony and more like something
else. That, however, is not the music. That's just the sound. (Do
Schnabel or Cortot sound like different pianists on different
remasterings? No they don't.) One can always spot a clueless reviewer
when they start talking about the sound quality. What I remember of
Morrison's reviews is a lot of fancy prose in order to conceal vast
cluelessness.
Really, there is no excuse for a critic when he never thinks twice
about an frail ailing woman who is supposed to be great in every
single bit of the repertoire. When something's too good to be true, it
is. Morrison, just like other people (TD, MusicWeb) fell for the story
which they wanted to regurgitate ad nauseam, rather than use their own
sense and senses.
The story about the 1982 Tchaikovsky is yet another one of those
circular dupe-stories. Yes, I'm sure Mr Morrison could talk about
every single pianist in the competition, he probably could talk about
pianists he'd never heard or seen (what's the difference?), and you
were very impressed. However, after the Hatto affair, did it ever
cross your mind that it was just hot air he'd been spouting at you;
just a guy spotting another guy in need of being "gobbsmacked".
Gobsmackery was obviously what the whole Hatto thing was about too.
As I have said frequently I don't think you should be hit with the
Hatto thing all the time, but it would help if you had learned
something from that humiliating farce.
Herman
Tom Deacon
Yes. I have learned not to take ANYTHING as gospel. And that, I am
afraid to say, includes your comments, Herman, no offense intended, of
course. It's just that your thoughts and ideas are only that, and
unprovable and thus unreliable.
TD
Christopher Webber
>Yes, WBC jiggled some controls, made the recording a little less like
>Sony and more like something else. That, however, is not the music.
>That's just the sound.
Without involving myself more than I need in the rather silly
controversy as to whether sound alters performance (of course it does -
for what is music if it is *not* sound?!) it is worth correcting
something important here.
It was not WBC who manufactured the "Hatto Sound", but the talented
engineer Roger Chatterton, of Kite Studios, Cambridge. He received the
disparate-sounding sources on home-made CD-Roms and tapes from WBC, and
homogenised them in that beautiful, warm way.
And - to be absolutely clear on the matter - it is very clear that Mr
Chatterton was completely innocent of any involvement in the fraud
itself.
--
___________________________
Christopher Webber, Blackheath, London, UK.
http://www.zarzuela.net
Tom Deacon
> Tom Deacon <tomd...@mac.com> - Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:48:52 -0400:
>
>> EM's recent bizarre note about the Wikipedia
>> article on Hatto
>
> Only a quote.
>
> <http://www.moreintelligentlife.co.uk/story/joyce-hatto-the-great-piano-swindle>
(Bottom
>
> of the page: "It's amusing to see how some...")
Ivan Davis, by the way, is almost totally blind now. He can't even see
a computer screen let alone alter his contributions to the Hatto
affair. Very sad story, in fact, not only for him, but for his many
friends.
The speculation about me is truly weird. I recall looking at that site
when the scandal broke, but haven't since. Clearly Fairly Malicious has
been very busy tracking down the various recordings with the benefit of
the IPAM archives. I suppose that gives him something to do. One is
tempted to say "Chapeau", except that would imply that he is a
gentleman, and he is anything but. Is he, in fact, allowed to board
airplanes again?
TD
Tom Deacon
<c...@zarzuela.net.invalid> said:
> her...@yahoo.com writes:
>> Yes, WBC jiggled some controls, made the recording a little less like
>> Sony and more like something else. That, however, is not the music.
>> That's just the sound.
>
> Without involving myself more than I need in the rather silly
> controversy as to whether sound alters performance (of course it does -
> for what is music if it is *not* sound?!) it is worth correcting
> something important here.
>
> It was not WBC who manufactured the "Hatto Sound", but the talented
> engineer Roger Chatterton, of Kite Studios, Cambridge. He received the
> disparate-sounding sources on home-made CD-Roms and tapes from WBC, and
> homogenised them in that beautiful, warm way.
>
> And - to be absolutely clear on the matter - it is very clear that Mr
> Chatterton was completely innocent of any involvement in the fraud
> itself.
Interesting.
I have never hear this person's name mentioned.
TD
Matthew�B.�Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:jKSVvMD7...@217.169.1.80:
> It was not WBC who manufactured the "Hatto Sound", but the talented
> engineer Roger Chatterton, of Kite Studios, Cambridge. He received the
> disparate-sounding sources on home-made CD-Roms and tapes from WBC, and
> homogenised them in that beautiful, warm way.
>
> And - to be absolutely clear on the matter - it is very clear that Mr
> Chatterton was completely innocent of any involvement in the fraud itself.
Did Barrington-Crook pay him to do that? If so, didn't Chatterson look
carefully at the banknotes to see that instead of the Queen, they depicted
Bernie Cornfeld?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Matthew Silverstein
> Disingenuous? As in dishonest?
>
> I think not. The sound HAS been altered, giving the performance an
> entirely different quality.
Yes, the sound has been altered. But Morrison suggested that the
*performance* had been altered, and that's not true.
Matty
Frank Berger
> Tom Deacon <tomd...@mac.com> - Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:52:56 -0400:
>
>>> And - to be absolutely clear on the matter - it is very clear that
>>> Mr Chatterton was completely innocent of any involvement in the
>>> fraud itself.
>
>> Interesting.
>>
>> I have never hear this person's name mentioned.
>
>
> http://www.pristineclassical.com/HattoHoax7.html
>
> FYI, Christopher Webber is associated with Musicweb afaik. That's the
> music website which...., well read what its reviewers have to say:
>
> http://members2.boardhost.com/MusicWebUK/msg/1171668435.html
>
> They even sold Hatto CDs iirc.
>
> EM
Of course they did. That's where I bought around $500 worth of "Hatto" CDs.
When I contacted them about a refund, they said they couldn't do that as
they were not a retailer; they only distributed CDs for Concert Artists.
Whatever sense that makes or doesn't make, on their suggestion I contected
B-C directly and got a refund. I will not do business with Musicweb again.
I have not seen another person here mentioning even trying to get a refund.
I wonder why?
Frank Berger
Is it surprising that Deacon doesn't know the difference between a
performance and a recording?
Ludwig
wrote:
What then would count as altering the "performance" in your eyes?
Speeding up? Slowing down? Changing dynamics? Where would you draw the
line? Isn't the sound Bronfman produced part of his performance, just
as much as his choice of speed or dynamics? We see plenty of posts in
this very forum praising or finding fault with a pianist's sound,
after all. I don't think the matter is anything like as clear-cut as
you suggest, especially since, as Christopher Webber reminds us, the
Hatto engineer deliberately tried to change the sound to make it more
Hatto-like. It doesn't seem at all unreasonable in the circumstances
to say that the performance had been altered.
jrsnfld
> On 10 juin, 22:18, Tom Deacon <tomdea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > On 2009-06-10 15:13:14 -0400, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> said
>
> > My experience of BM was fashioned at the 1982 Tchaikovsky Competition,
> > which he attended, as did I. He assisted me in presenting the results
> > on CBC Stereo in a series of broadcasts (about 15 hours in all). I was
> > simply staggered that he could recall each and every detail of
> > performances he had heard over the three weeks of the competition. Not
> > just the outstanding participants, but also the many, many, many also
> > rans. (100 pianists started out at the beginning). He could remember
> > them all, in detail, and describe what he liked and disliked about
> > their interpretations of various pieces. Without notes. I was properly
> > gobbsmacked!
>
> Mr Morrison's defense is very poor. Yes, WBC jiggled some controls,
> made the recording a little less like Sony and more like something
> else. That, however, is not the music. That's just the sound. (Do
> Schnabel or Cortot sound like different pianists on different
> remasterings? No they don't.) One can always spot a clueless reviewer
> when they start talking about the sound quality. What I remember of
> Morrison's reviews is a lot of fancy prose in order to conceal vast
> cluelessness.
Schnabel and Cortot still sound like relatively recognizable
personalities under different remasterings...but Bronfman?
Personality?
Let's face it, all this proves is that Morrison doesn't know his
pianists nearly as well as he'd like you to think. But it would be
simply extraordinary for anyone to discern a lot of personality in any
number of cookie cutter virtuosi today. There are plenty of wonderful
musicians, but only a few have the kind of recognizable profile that
Cortot had. Unfortunately, some critics and posters here are unwilling
to admit that connoisseurship means very little and yes, blind
listening is a lot harder than they think.
--Jeff
jrsnfld
> So Bryce Morrison is a cowardly cunt who produces vast amounts of hot gas. What is the novelty here?
>
> Cynical Kraut
The interesting part here is that the original poster has taken it
upon himself to reproduce and disseminate without permission a
published work owned by another person--a person who makes a living
writing, no less. Ironic, eh?
--Jeff
O
> My reply is simple. The performances are identical except in one vital
> aspect. I have listened side by side to Sony's and Concert Artist's
> offerings [the Bronfman and the "Hatto" recordings respectively], only
> to find that their sound worlds are different.
Must make a comforting rationalization. "Sound worlds." Bronfman
sounded like Earth, and Hatto sounded like Venus.
> Sound is not everything,
From "sound worlds" to simply "sound." Which is it?
> yet it can subtly, even radically,
Is it subtly, or radically? The two words are radically different. If
it can radically and subtly alter, than the adjectives are unnecessary,
unless moderation is excluded, and I doubt that. May as well throw
moderately into the mix too.
> alter one's appraisal
Or even yours.
> (many record
> companies flatter their artists shamelessly, making "small" pianists
> sound "big", or casting a tonal bloom on artists sadly missing from
> live performances). What is cold from Sony, shedding an oddly
> impersonal, fluorescent light on the soloist, becomes gratifyingly warm
> on Concert Artist.
If only Bronfman used the old fashioned lightbulbs.
> What is clear is that Bronfman's performance has not
> been lifted wholesale, but altered to suggest a different quality or
> calibre.
Indeed, and Bronfman's performance, on either of the disks, might sound
even more different listening through a different pair of speakers, or
in the tape player of your car. A good reviewer would hear the
performance, not just the "sound worlds."
> Of course, Williams may reply in his defence that professional, as
> opposed to amateur, musicians should be able to listen through such
> alterations (as one is compelled to do in the case of Rachmaninov's own
> 1919-1942 recordings) and also achieve a proper objectivity by not
> being beguiled by personality over music
"Beguiled?" Seduced by Hatto I suppose. This non-apologetic apologia
becomes even more damning than the original lousy reviews.
> (reviews commencing, for
> example, "Ashkenazy's Chopin is self-recommending", are sadly familiar).
> But the matter is not so simple. To repeat, sound or sonority can
> greatly shift and alter one's perceptions. The same considerations
> apply to a comparison between Roger Muraro's disc of Ravel's La Valse,
> and the later attribution to Hatto. Again, the sound has been altered
> to suggest something altogether grander, more suitably violent and
> theatrical than the original.
Which doesn't explain all the non-altered opposing-reviews.
> Of course, William Barrington-Coupe was more cunning than many have
> suggested, hanging on to his trickery until his cover was finally
> blown. And, as Julian Lloyd Webber, in a brief but telling article for
> the Daily Telegraph, explained, there is no skin off anybody's nose
> except that of the perpetrator of this deception.
And certain rather exposed reviewers.
> His grubby and
> cynical con should be suitably penalised with hefty fines, or a return
> to the prison he formerly inhabited, where he was incarcerated for
> fraud.
And what should we do to the grubby and cynical reviewers trying to
justify their inability to hear what they're reviewing?
-Owen
Steve de Mena
Where does he mention the Brahms concerti here? (The "Hatto"
performances were by Gutierrez and Ashkenazy. Bronfman performed
Hatto's Rachmaninoff Concerti)
Steve
Steve de Mena
> On 10 juin, 22:18, Tom Deacon <tomdea...@mac.com> wrote:
>> On 2009-06-10 15:13:14 -0400, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> said
>>
>>
>> My experience of BM was fashioned at the 1982 Tchaikovsky Competition,
>> which he attended, as did I. He assisted me in presenting the results
>> on CBC Stereo in a series of broadcasts (about 15 hours in all). I was
>> simply staggered that he could recall each and every detail of
>> performances he had heard over the three weeks of the competition. Not
>> just the outstanding participants, but also the many, many, many also
>> rans. (100 pianists started out at the beginning). He could remember
>> them all, in detail, and describe what he liked and disliked about
>> their interpretations of various pieces. Without notes. I was properly
>> gobbsmacked!
>
> Mr Morrison's defense is very poor. Yes, WBC jiggled some controls,
> made the recording a little less like Sony and more like something
> else. That, however, is not the music.
The Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto (Ashkenazy/Haitink/VPO) doesn't sound
much different. The Decca CD has a little more at the top end, and is
mastered at a higher volume, but it is small difference.
Steve
Kip Williams
> ... and yes, blind
> listening is a lot harder than they think.
This is one reason I don't make extravagant claims about how good my ear
is or whether I can recognize players and all that. Once in a while, I
seem to -- perhaps no more than chance would permit.
Critics often have to make such claims in order to promote an image of
perception and acuity. Sometimes they run into difficulty if they can't
back up these claims.
Kip W
Daniel ONeill
news:Sa6dndsH9bbL_K3X...@supernews.com:
> Of course they did. That's where I bought around $500 worth of
> "Hatto" CDs. When I contacted them about a refund, they said they
> couldn't do that as they were not a retailer; they only distributed
> CDs for Concert Artists. Whatever sense that makes or doesn't make, on
> their suggestion I contected B-C directly and got a refund. I will
> not do business with Musicweb again. I have not seen another person
> here mentioning even trying to get a refund. I wonder why?
I only ordered four "Hatto" Cds through MusicWeb, and I think I got two
additional free CDs thrown in. Of the four I ordered, one by chance was the
Bax CD which turned out to be one of the few (the only?) one in which Joyce
Hatto was actually playing. I chose to keep my set as a curious exhibit
regarding part of music history. If I had bought $500 worth, I might have
thought differently.
--- d.o.
Christopher Webber
>FYI, Christopher Webber is associated with Musicweb afaik.
That is not correct. I am not "associated with MusicWeb", although
several years ago I did allow Len Mullenger to publish a handful of my
reviews (without payment.)
My interest in the matter comes from another source. I was commissioned
by Oxford University Press to write the article on Joyce Hatto for the
Dictionary of National Biography, so it was important for me to
establish the facts as to the fraud, and Hatto's early career.
Christopher Webber
>(The "Hatto" performances were by Gutierrez and Ashkenazy. Bronfman
>performed Hatto's Rachmaninoff Concerti)
Anyone wishing to hear the genuine Joyce Hatto Rachmaninov 2nd Concerto,
recorded in about 1959 with George Hurst and the Hamburg Pro Musica, can
download it here, together with "Rhapsody in Blue" and some other early
Hatto recordings. Please allow for some rough treble from worn LP
pressings.
http://rapidshare.com/files/234043899/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume1_mp3.
rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/234058285/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume2_mp3.
rar
http://rapidshare.com/files/234059026/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume3_mp3.
rar
frank&stein
>
> Yes. I have learned not to take ANYTHING as gospel. And that, I am
> afraid to say, includes your comments, Herman, no offense intended, of
> course. It's just that your thoughts and ideas are only that, and
> unprovable and thus unreliable.
>
> TD
But you see, Tom, the point is not OFFERING anything as gospel. I have
always offered my "thoughts and ideas" as just that: comments made at
that point in time. I have posted about music I like; however I have
never pretended that the music I like is the best ever - what
difference does it make? I have never tried to persuade people to like
what I like. Why would I? Why would it make me feel better if ten, or
a hundred other people liked the same record I happen to like (at this
point in time)? If that would be so important to me I'd better change
to Mariah Carey.
Herman
herman
alias.
herman
Tom Deacon
Why?
Everything would depend upon how you defined those two words, of course.
TD
Tom Deacon
> jrsnfld wrote:
>
>> ... and yes, blind
>> listening is a lot harder than they think.
>
> This is one reason I don't make extravagant claims about how good my
> ear is or whether I can recognize players and all that. Once in a
> while, I seem to -- perhaps no more than chance would permit.
Very few, precious few, pianists are immediately discernible to the
average or even the professional listener. Anonymity would seem to have
become almost a virtue of late.
TD
Tom Deacon
<c...@zarzuela.net.invalid> said:
> EM <emmemmme...@gnail.com> writes:
>> FYI, Christopher Webber is associated with Musicweb afaik.
>
> That is not correct. I am not "associated with MusicWeb", although
> several years ago I did allow Len Mullenger to publish a handful of my
> reviews (without payment.)
>
> My interest in the matter comes from another source. I was commissioned
> by Oxford University Press to write the article on Joyce Hatto for the
> Dictionary of National Biography, so it was important for me to
> establish the facts as to the fraud, and Hatto's early career.
Not a subtle distinction, Christopher.
It just shows how false impressions are spread throughout the internet.
Good to hear that someone is actually establishing the facts of this fraud.
TD
Tom Deacon
> On 10 juin, 23:49, Tom Deacon <tomdea...@mac.com> wrote:
>>
>> Yes. I have learned not to take ANYTHING as gospel. And that, I am
>> afraid to say, includes your comments, Herman, no offense intended, of
>> course. It's just that your thoughts and ideas are only that, and
>> unprovable and thus unreliable.
>>
>> TD
>
> But you see, Tom, the point is not OFFERING anything as gospel.
The point is also not TAKING anything offered as gospel.
And that is the lesson, I would think.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Truth? in the eye of the perceiver? Well, perhaps, but perhaps not.
TD
Kip Williams
> Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> writes:
>> (The "Hatto" performances were by Gutierrez and Ashkenazy. Bronfman
>> performed Hatto's Rachmaninoff Concerti)
>
> Anyone wishing to hear the genuine Joyce Hatto Rachmaninov 2nd Concerto,
> recorded in about 1959 with George Hurst and the Hamburg Pro Musica, can
> download it here, together with "Rhapsody in Blue" and some other early
> Hatto recordings. Please allow for some rough treble from worn LP
> pressings.
>
> http://rapidshare.com/files/234043899/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume1_mp3.
> rar
>
> http://rapidshare.com/files/234058285/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume2_mp3.
> rar
>
> http://rapidshare.com/files/234059026/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume3_mp3.
> rar
Which is which?
Kip W
Christopher Webber
>>
>>http://rapidshare.com/files/234043899/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume1_mp>>3.
>> rar
>>
>>http://rapidshare.com/files/234058285/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume2_mp>>3.
>> rar
>>
>>http://rapidshare.com/files/234059026/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume3_mp>>3.
>> rar
>
>Which is which?
Without downloading them myself, I can't be sure, as I haven't kept
software copies on my hard disk. But I would guess Vol.1 is the
Rachmaninov (including two preludes), Vol.2 the Gershwin (Rhapsody in
Blue and American in Paris, c. George Byrd); Vol.3 would then be "Music
from the Films", c. Gilbert Vinter (including "Warsaw Concerto", "Dream
of Olwen" and the rest.)
The "rar" extensions have wrapped to a second line (I don't know why) so
those will need to be re-affixed to the file names.
Matthew Silverstein
> What then would count as altering the "performance" in your eyes?
> Speeding up? Slowing down? Changing dynamics?
Yes, those would all qualify. (And those are things that were done to other
Hatto recordings.
> Where would you draw the line?
I don't know, but that doesn't prevent me from saying that this particular
case is on one side of the line rather than another.
> Isn't the sound Bronfman produced part of his performance, just as much
> as his choice of speed or dynamics? We see plenty of posts in this very
> forum praising or finding fault with a pianist's sound, after all. I
> don't think the matter is anything like as clear-cut as you suggest,
> especially since, as Christopher Webber reminds us, the Hatto engineer
> deliberately tried to change the sound to make it more Hatto-like. It
> doesn't seem at all unreasonable in the circumstances to say that the
> performance had been altered.
Sorry, but I don't buy that. If you were right about this case, then every
time a remastering significantly improved the sound of a recording that
remastering would constitute a change in the performance. But that's not
what it is.
Matty
Tom Deacon
<msilve...@sbcglobal.net> said:
But that is precisely why "copyright" exists on each and every
remastering. At least that is what the transfer gurus say. And it is
certainly the reason nobody will rip off a CD transfer made by EMI,
say. The change, any change, is sufficient in the eyes of the law to
establish a "new" product.
TD
"mcdonaldREMOVE TO...@scs.uiuc.edu
> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> Truth? in the eye of the perceiver? Well, perhaps, but perhaps not.
>
I have long ago learned that in matter of art, critics are to
be taken lightly.
Yes, I am influenced. If they like something, I
try to like it. If they hate something, I try to see
if it deserves hate. But I prefer my own taste.
In particular, if a recorded piece (I have heard none of
this ilk live) pretends to be HIP, I tend to want to
dislike it. BUT ... if it sound OK, it sounds OK. I am
not a real lover of Beethoven on the fortepiano, nor
of "The Messiah" with HIP size forces. In my not so humble
opinion, neither is God, who, if he existed, would have
the benefit of lively discussion with the composers.
Beethoven would likely be a close friend of a certain Mr.
Steinway, or would that be Mr. Bosendorfer?
Doug McDonald
Ludwig
wrote:
Again, I think it's not as simple as that. When EMI remasters a
Michelangeli recording, the engineer is trying to produce something
closer to (or recover more of) the sound Michelangeli produced at the
sessions: that is what "improving the sound" means in a case like
that. In the Hatto case, on the other hand, the aim was the opposite,
to make one pianist sound like another (or rather, like the other
recordings put out under her name). The engineer responsible has said
as much. If the playing no longer sounds like Bronfman's, the
remastering engineer has achieved his goal; but if the EMI engineer
produced a result that didn't sound like Michelangeli, he would have
failed. The two cases aren't really comparable.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:hD5FdiCX...@217.169.1.80:
> Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> writes:
>>(The "Hatto" performances were by Gutierrez and Ashkenazy. Bronfman
>>performed Hatto's Rachmaninoff Concerti)
>
> Anyone wishing to hear the genuine Joyce Hatto Rachmaninov 2nd Concerto,
> recorded in about 1959 with George Hurst and the Hamburg Pro Musica, can
> download it here, together with "Rhapsody in Blue" and some other early
> Hatto recordings. Please allow for some rough treble from worn LP
> pressings.
>
> http://rapidshare.com/files/234043899/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume1_mp3.
> rar
>
> http://rapidshare.com/files/234058285/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume2_mp3.
> rar
>
> http://rapidshare.com/files/234059026/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume3_mp3.
> rar
Thanks very much! I'll retrieve these tonight or tomorrow, as I have to be
rushing off to work shortly.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Matthew�B.�Tepper
letters to be typed in
I bought the Brahms concerti because I wanted to make a minimal investment
just out of curiosity, so I was only stuck for $11.55 (the amount on my
credit card bill, which I dutifully recorded in my purchase ledger). Since
Barrington-Crook has never offered me a refund at any time, I retain
complaining rights forever.
I'm curious -- those of you to whom Barrington-Crook *did* give a refund, was
it in full, and in what manner did he do it? Surely you didn't give him your
credit card number! (Kip may now give the obvious response to that.)
Paul Goldstein
Ludwig says...
>
>On Jun 11, 2:05=A0pm, Matthew Silverstein <msilverz-l...@sbcglobal.net>
>wrote:
>> On Wednesday, June 10, 2009, Ludwig wrote:
>> > What then would count as altering the "performance" in your eyes?
>> > Speeding up? Slowing down? Changing dynamics?
>>
>er
>> Hatto recordings.
>>
>> > Where would you draw the line?
>>
>r
>> case is on one side of the line rather than another.
>>
>> > Isn't the sound Bronfman produced part of his performance, just as much
>> > as his choice of speed or dynamics? We see plenty of posts in this very
>> > forum praising or finding fault with a pianist's sound, after all. I
>> > don't think the matter is anything like as clear-cut as you suggest,
>> > especially since, as Christopher Webber reminds us, the Hatto engineer
>> > deliberately tried to change the sound to make it more Hatto-like. It
>> > doesn't seem at all unreasonable in the circumstances to say that the
>> > performance had been altered.
>>
>y
>> time a remastering significantly improved the sound of a recording that
>> remastering would constitute a change in the performance. But that's not
>> what it is.
>>
>> Matty
>
>Again, I think it's not as simple as that. When EMI remasters a
>Michelangeli recording, the engineer is trying to produce something
>closer to (or recover more of) the sound Michelangeli produced at the
>sessions: that is what "improving the sound" means in a case like
>that.
Not necessarily. The engineer may instead be trying to make the recording sound
"better" based on some subjective criteria of his own.
Frank Berger
> "Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> - Wed, 10 Jun 2009
> 20:43:49 -0500:
>
>> Of course they did. That's where I bought around $500 worth of
>> "Hatto" CDs. When I contacted them about a refund, they said they
>> couldn't do that as they were not a retailer; they only distributed
>> CDs for Concert Artists. Whatever sense that makes or doesn't make,
>> on their suggestion I contected B-C directly and got a refund. I
>> will not do business with Musicweb again.
>
> goods, which A markets and distributes, you have a contract with A,
> not with supplier B from which A obtains the goods.
>
> EM
That's what I thought.
Frank Berger
Returned via PayPal, IIRC.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
Whew!
Matthew�B.�Tepper
> That's what I thought.
And, if I understand it correctly, "wretched, meritorious" B has the right
to attempt to recover from "happy, undeserving" A. (Sorry for the silly
G&S reference, but it happened to fit here, amazingly.)
Therefore, MusicWeb should pay off their cheated customers, and then hound
Barrington-Crook to the ends of the Earth to squeeze repayment out of him.
Simon Roberts
>
>On 2009-06-10 15:13:14 -0400, Simon Roberts <sd...@comcast.net> said
>
>As I've said before, I don't
>>expect anyone to be able to identify Ashkenazy of Bronfman blind (though, since
>>you've repeatedly told us that BM never forgets anything, perhaps he should be
>> able to); but it would be odd if these differences weren't commented on.
>
>My experience of BM was fashioned at the 1982 Tchaikovsky Competition,
>which he attended, as did I. He assisted me in presenting the results
>on CBC Stereo in a series of broadcasts (about 15 hours in all). I was
>simply staggered that he could recall each and every detail of
>performances he had heard over the three weeks of the competition. Not
>just the outstanding participants, but also the many, many, many also
>rans. (100 pianists started out at the beginning). He could remember
>them all, in detail, and describe what he liked and disliked about
>their interpretations of various pieces. Without notes. I was properly
I might have been, if there were any basis for testing his memory about all
those details.
>This experience led me to make the statement about Bryce, and I would
>stand on it to this day, the Brahms concerti with 15 years distance
>between auditions to the contrary notwithstanding.
>
>It is always easy to take on a personality like Bryce Morrison. One
>should do it carefully, I would say, as you might be forced to back
>down. Way down, when faced with the man in full flight of his
>considerable abilities. He has his prejudices, of course, as we all do.
>But in general, I think he usually hits the mark, regardless of his
>Bronfman/Hatto confusion, or the inability to recognize VA instantly in
>a standard repertoire concerto.
Yes, yes, but what about his inability to distinguish two radically
different-sounding orchestras and, since he evidently cares so much about it,
radically different sounding recordings made, ostensibly, in the same place by
the same engineers?
Simon
Ludwig
> In article <2009061016184430337-tomdeacon@maccom>, Tom Deacon says...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Are you sure BM actually reviewed the Brahms concertos? Gramophone's
archive suggests that he didn't.
Kip Williams
> I'm curious -- those of you to whom Barrington-Crook *did* give a refund, was
> it in full, and in what manner did he do it? Surely you didn't give him your
> credit card number! (Kip may now give the obvious response to that.)
It's a big building full of doctors, but that's not important now.
Kip W
Ludwig
> In article <b9a36972-be13-4d26-95a4-d026788e8...@o18g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
Perhaps in some cases, but remastering engineers do often go back to
original notes of the sessions, marked-up scores etc. to make sure
that the result is as faithful to the original sound as possible.
Anyway, even if the goal were just to produce something that sounded
"better", that's still a long way from trying to produce something
that sounds like a different pianist.
Simon Roberts
says...
>
>her...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On 10 juin, 22:18, Tom Deacon <tomdea...@mac.com> wrote:
>>> On 2009-06-10 15:13:14 -0400, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> said
>>>
>>>
>>> which he attended, as did I. He assisted me in presenting the results
>>> on CBC Stereo in a series of broadcasts (about 15 hours in all). I was
>>> simply staggered that he could recall each and every detail of
>>> performances he had heard over the three weeks of the competition. Not
>>> just the outstanding participants, but also the many, many, many also
>>> rans. (100 pianists started out at the beginning). He could remember
>>> them all, in detail, and describe what he liked and disliked about
>>> their interpretations of various pieces. Without notes. I was properly
>>> gobbsmacked!
>>
>> made the recording a little less like Sony and more like something
>> else. That, however, is not the music.
>
>The Brahms 2nd Piano Concerto (Ashkenazy/Haitink/VPO) doesn't sound
>much different. The Decca CD has a little more at the top end, and is
>mastered at a higher volume, but it is small difference.
More important (perhaps) it was not altered to make it sound like the recording
of cto #1 (and vice versa); the differences between the sounds on those two
recordings as released by Barrington-Ffraud is hardly subtle.
Simon
Simon Roberts
Ludwig says...
>
>On Jun 11, 8:29=A0pm, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> In article <2009061016184430337-tomdeacon@maccom>, Tom Deacon says...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On 2009-06-10 15:13:14 -0400, Simon Roberts <s...@comcast.net> said
>>
>> >As I've said before, I don't
>h, since
>> >>you've repeatedly told us that BM never forgets anything, perhaps he sh=
>ould be
>> >> able to); but it would be odd if these differences weren't commented o=
>n.
>>
>> >My experience of BM was fashioned at the 1982 Tchaikovsky Competition,
>> >which he attended, as did I. He assisted me in presenting the results
>> >on CBC Stereo in a series of broadcasts (about 15 hours in all). I was
>> >simply staggered that he could recall each and every detail of
>> >performances he had heard over the three weeks of the competition. Not
>> >just the outstanding participants, but also the many, many, many also
>> >rans. (100 pianists started out at the beginning). He could remember
>> >them all, in detail, and describe what he liked and disliked about
>> >their interpretations of various pieces. Without notes. I was properly
>> >gobbsmacked! As would you have been, I am sure.
>>
>ll
>> those details.
>>
>> >This experience led me to make the statement about Bryce, and I would
>> >stand on it to this day, the Brahms concerti with 15 years distance
>> >between auditions to the contrary notwithstanding.
>>
>> >It is always easy to take on a personality like Bryce Morrison. One
>> >should do it carefully, I would say, as you might be forced to back
>> >down. Way down, when faced with the man in full flight of his
>> >considerable abilities. He has his prejudices, of course, as we all do.
>> >But in general, I think he usually hits the mark, regardless of his
>> >Bronfman/Hatto confusion, or the inability to recognize VA instantly in
>> >a standard repertoire concerto.
>>
>> Yes, yes, but what about his inability to distinguish two radically
> it,
>> radically different sounding recordings made, ostensibly, in the same pla=
>ce by
>> the same engineers?
>>
>> Simon
>
>Are you sure BM actually reviewed the Brahms concertos? Gramophone's
>archive suggests that he didn't.
You may be right; I assumed he had based on what TD wrote above. As for TD, he
claims to have listened to the "Hatto" performances several times . . . .
Simon
Simon Roberts
>Michelangeli recording, the engineer is trying to produce something
>closer to (or recover more of) the sound Michelangeli produced at the
>sessions: that is what "improving the sound" means in a case like
>that. In the Hatto case, on the other hand, the aim was the opposite,
>to make one pianist sound like another (or rather, like the other
>recordings put out under her name). The engineer responsible has said
>as much. If the playing no longer sounds like Bronfman's, the
Perhaps, but it only "no longer sounds like Bronfman's" tonally; the phrasing,
chord balancing, etc., are all the same (or is someone suggesting that the
engineer somehow managed to change those, too?). (Of course, it could be that
the engineer created something that sounded more like Bronfman than the Sony
original, but that 's another matter.)
Simon
Tom Deacon
Like many musicians, they don't listen to recordings the way we may do.
I would wager that BM listens to music on a fairly simple sound system.
With the money earned from writing about music, do you really think he
has a sota system?
I think not.
TD
Tom Deacon
<fromgoogle....@spamgourmet.com> said:
I have no idea. Perhaps not? In which case why are we discussing it as
though he did?
TD
Tom Deacon
<fromgoogle....@spamgourmet.com> said:
> On Jun 11, 4:13�pm, Paul Goldstein <pgold...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> In article <b9a36972-be13-4d26-95a4-d026788e8...@o18g2000yqi.googlegroups
> .com>,
>> Ludwig says...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 11, 2:05=A0pm, Matthew Silverstein <msilverz-l...@sbcglobal.net
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, June 10, 2009, Ludwig wrote:
>>>>> What then would count as altering the "performance" in your eyes?
>>>>> Speeding up? Slowing down? Changing dynamics?
>>
>>>> Yes, those would all qualify. (And those are things that were done to
> oth
>>> er
>>>> Hatto recordings.
>>
>>>>> Where would you draw the line?
>>
>>>> I don't know, but that doesn't prevent me from saying that this partic
> ula
>>> r
>>>> case is on one side of the line rather than another.
>>
>>>>> Isn't the sound Bronfman produced part of his performance, just as m
> uch
>>>>> as his choice of speed or dynamics? We see plenty of posts in this v
> ery
>>>>> forum praising or finding fault with a pianist's sound, after all. I
>>>>> don't think the matter is anything like as clear-cut as you suggest,
>>>>> especially since, as Christopher Webber reminds us, the Hatto engine
> er
>>>>> deliberately tried to change the sound to make it more Hatto-like. I
> t
>>>>> doesn't seem at all unreasonable in the circumstances to say that th
> e
>>>>> performance had been altered.
>>
>>>> Sorry, but I don't buy that. If you were right about this case, then e
> ver
>>> y
>>>> time a remastering significantly improved the sound of a recording tha
> t
>>>> remastering would constitute a change in the performance. But that's n
> ot
>>>> what it is.
>>
>>>> Matty
>>
>>> Again, I think it's not as simple as that. When EMI remasters a
>>> Michelangeli recording, the engineer is trying to produce something
>>> closer to (or recover more of) the sound Michelangeli produced at the
>>> sessions: that is what "improving the sound" means in a case like
>>> that.
>>
>> Not necessarily. �The engineer may instead be trying to make the record
> ing sound
>> "better" based on some subjective criteria of his own.
>
> Perhaps in some cases, but remastering engineers do often go back to
> original notes of the sessions, marked-up scores etc. to make sure
> that the result is as faithful to the original sound as possible.
> Anyway, even if the goal were just to produce something that sounded
> "better", that's still a long way from trying to produce something
> that sounds like a different pianist.
Totally different. In the one case the engineer is trying to extract
the maximum from the original. In the other he is trying to make it
sound as though played by someone else.
TD
Tom Deacon
I usually do. And probably did. But I listen to thousands of
performances of standard repertoire pieces every year. I would never
claim to be able to remember every detail about each. Refreshing one's
mind with another listen is always advisable before making evaluations
a month, year, or decade later. Isn't that reasonable?
TD
Tom Deacon
Strange.
You seem completely unwilling or unprepared to give BM even the
slightest benefit of a doubt here. Do you dislike him and his opinions
so intensely?
TD
Mark
"Christopher Webber" <c...@zarzuela.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:hD5FdiCX...@217.169.1.80...
> Steve de Mena <st...@stevedemena.com> writes:
>>(The "Hatto" performances were by Gutierrez and Ashkenazy. Bronfman
>>performed Hatto's Rachmaninoff Concerti)
>
> Anyone wishing to hear the genuine Joyce Hatto Rachmaninov 2nd Concerto,
> recorded in about 1959 with George Hurst and the Hamburg Pro Musica, can
> download it here, together with "Rhapsody in Blue" and some other early
> Hatto recordings. Please allow for some rough treble from worn LP
> pressings.
>
> http://rapidshare.com/files/234043899/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume1_mp3.
> rar
>
> http://rapidshare.com/files/234058285/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume2_mp3.
> rar
>
> http://rapidshare.com/files/234059026/Hatto_Early_Recordings_Volume3_mp3.
> rar
>
>
be appalled at this flagrant act of theft...
Mark
Matthew Silverstein
> But that is precisely why "copyright" exists on each and every
> remastering. At least that is what the transfer gurus say. And it is
> certainly the reason nobody will rip off a CD transfer made by EMI,
> say. The change, any change, is sufficient in the eyes of the law to
> establish a "new" product.
Of course it's a new product, Tom. The question is whether it's a new
*performance*.
Matty
Simon Roberts
>
>Like many musicians, they don't listen to recordings the way we may do.
>I would wager that BM listens to music on a fairly simple sound system.
>With the money earned from writing about music, do you really think he
>has a sota system?
Beats me - for all I know he's independently wealthy or has a real job
elsewhere. But if that's the reason, his excuse - Barrington-Ffraud altered
Bronfman's sound - seems even less impressive than before!
Simon
Simon Roberts
I have a low opinion of his writing, but what I think of him in particular isn't
really the point (and hardly matters). Whoever he is, his excuses and those
made on his behalf aren't impressive and it's not clear why they should be given
the benefit of the doubt. The more important point, though, is the one made
earlier by Jeff: Barrington-Ffraud's machinations could have served a useful
purpose in undermining a lot of assumptions that underlie the whole music
reviewer/expert/"golden ears" enterprise. Whether they did remains to be seen
(I'm not optimistic).
Simon
Ludwig
> In article <2009061116400127544-tomdeacon@maccom>, Tom Deacon says...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>In article <b9a36972-be13-4d26-95a4-d026788e8...@o18g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
Also worth noting before we completely write off BM is one thing that
seems not to have been mentioned yet. It's true that he thought highly
of the Hatto Rachmaninov 2 and (especially) 3, but in the same review,
he is distinctly unenthusiastic about the rest of her Rachmaninov
concerto recordings (source not yet identified). So whatever else we
may say about this, it's clear that the Hatto brand alone wasn't
enough to win his praise.
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/February%202007/66/821974
(Bronfman review:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/September%201992/84/825857 )
Matthew�B.�Tepper
to be typed in news:4eeYl.75211$9G5....@newsfe25.ams2:
> ..erm...isn't this material still in copyright?....I'm sure Mr Deacon
> would be appalled at this flagrant act of theft...
Good try, but that was brought up back when the hoax was first revealed, and
he shrugged it off then too.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
letters to be typed in news:h0rmlq$v4h$2...@news.eternal-september.org:
Why, I can make a hat, or a brooch, or a pterodactyl....
Kip Williams
> Kip Williams <k...@rochester.rr.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:h0rmlq$v4h$2...@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>>
>>> I'm curious -- those of you to whom Barrington-Crook *did* give a
>>> refund, was it in full, and in what manner did he do it? Surely you
>>> didn't give him your credit card number! (Kip may now give the obvious
>>> response to that.)
>> It's a big building full of doctors, but that's not important now.
>
> Why, I can make a hat, or a brooch, or a pterodactyl....
No, that's just what they'll be expecting us to do!
Kip W
O
<tomd...@mac.com> wrote:
> On 2009-06-11 09:05:54 -0400, Matthew Silverstein
> <msilve...@sbcglobal.net> said:
>
> > On Wednesday, June 10, 2009, Ludwig wrote:
> >
> >> What then would count as altering the "performance" in your eyes?
> >> Speeding up? Slowing down? Changing dynamics?
> >
> > Yes, those would all qualify. (And those are things that were done to other
> > Hatto recordings.
> >
> >> Where would you draw the line?
> >
> > I don't know, but that doesn't prevent me from saying that this particular
> > case is on one side of the line rather than another.
> >
> >> Isn't the sound Bronfman produced part of his performance, just as much
> >> as his choice of speed or dynamics? We see plenty of posts in this very
> >> forum praising or finding fault with a pianist's sound, after all. I
> >> don't think the matter is anything like as clear-cut as you suggest,
> >> especially since, as Christopher Webber reminds us, the Hatto engineer
> >> deliberately tried to change the sound to make it more Hatto-like. It
> >> doesn't seem at all unreasonable in the circumstances to say that the
> >> performance had been altered.
> >
> > Sorry, but I don't buy that. If you were right about this case, then every
> > time a remastering significantly improved the sound of a recording that
> > remastering would constitute a change in the performance. But that's not
> > what it is.
> >
> > Matty
>
> But that is precisely why "copyright" exists on each and every
> remastering. At least that is what the transfer gurus say. And it is
> certainly the reason nobody will rip off a CD transfer made by EMI,
> say. The change, any change, is sufficient in the eyes of the law to
> establish a "new" product.
Under the copyright law, it is not even necessary to "remaster"
anything. All you need to do is slap another label on it and it
becomes a derivative work. (According to a lawyer I spoke with)
-Owen
Tom Deacon
> "Mark" <ma...@thepiano.co.uk> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in news:4eeYl.75211$9G5....@newsfe25.ams2:
>
>> ..erm...isn't this material still in copyright?....I'm sure Mr Deacon
>> would be appalled at this flagrant act of theft...
>
> Good try, but that was brought up back when the hoax was first revealed, and
> he shrugged it off then too.
I never shrug off copyright infractions. Prove it, Tepper.
And while you at it, I remain keen to know why you never realized that
Brahms concerto you bought was not Joyce Hatto but Vladimir Ashkenazy
and the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.
Any fool could have told that, no? Are you less than a fool?
HA HA HA HA HA
Talk about shrugging off!!!!
The same way you shrugged off Tatlow.
TD
Tom Deacon
Always someone you can trust, eh?
"a lawyer I spoke with"?
HA HA HA HA
TD
Tom Deacon
> On 12 juin, 02:30, Ludwig <fromgoogle.1.ludwig...@spamgourmet.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>>> Strange.
>>
>>>> You seem completely unwilling or unprepared to give BM even the
>>>> slightest benefit of a doubt here. Do you dislike him and his opinions
>>>> so intensely?
>>
>>
>> Also worth noting before we completely write off BM
>
> I have written off the likes of Morrison a long time ago. You can tell
> by the fancy type of writing (in a genre that has serious space
> limitations) that he's a bullshit artist.
>
> Herman
Actually, I rather enjoy his florid use of the language. He also uses
it in person, I have to say. You may like to know that he was an
English literature student and holds advanced degrees in the subject.
If you want downmarket junk, or plebian talk, go somewhere else.
And If you want truly elevated language, investigate on CG Burke who
used to write for High Fidelity in the 1950s. He writes in the language
of GOD!!!
TD
bruckner_1
> a computer screen let alone alter his contributions to the Hatto
> affair. Very sad story, in fact, not only for him, but for his many
> friends.
>
>
> TD
Thanks for sharing this sad news. Very sorry to hear this about
Ivan. I have his Columbia Liszt LP in my stack of records to be
transfered, a wonderful recording which I've been enjoying for quite a
long time. It doesn't seem possible that it was released 48 or so
years ago.
Jeff from Wisconsin
Gerard
>
> Whew!
Thanks.
Taffy Brendel
> On 2009-06-11 21:29:56 -0400, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> said:
>
> > "Mark" <m...@thepiano.co.uk> appears to have caused the following letters
> > to be typed innews:4eeYl.75211$9G5....@newsfe25.ams2:
>
> >> ..erm...isn't this material still in copyright?....I'm sure Mr Deacon
> >> would be appalled at this flagrant act of theft...
>
> > Good try, but that was brought up back when the hoax was first revealed, and
> > he shrugged it off then too.
>
> I never shrug off copyright infractions. Prove it, Tepper.
>
> And while you at it, I remain keen to know why you never realized that
> Brahms concerto you bought was not Joyce Hatto but Vladimir Ashkenazy
> and the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra.
>
> Any fool could have told that, no? Are you less than a fool?
>
> HA HA HA HA HA
>
> Talk about shrugging off!!!!
>
> The same way you shrugged off Tatlow.
>
> TD
Tatlow? You invoke Tatlow?! Are you
really that dense?
Taffy
Tom Deacon
> Tom Deacon <tomd...@mac.com> - Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:40:01 -0400:
>
>> You seem completely unwilling or unprepared to give BM even the
>> slightest benefit of a doubt here. Do you dislike him and his opinions
>> so intensely?
>
> It may perhaps seem strange to you, but one can disagree with someone
> or question his judgment regarding a particular matter without
> disliking the person in question. One may not even know him. The
> dispute is about ideas and opinions, not about the people who express
> them.
> However, it looks like you have run out of ideas and arguments, so you
> resort to accusing your opponent of bearing personal grudges against
> the person whose jugdment and opinions he questions. That's very low
> of you, Mr. Deacon.
I am not questioning the questioning, which is fair, of course. But I
am also sensitive to the excessive nit-picking on each and every word.
This, I fear, smacks of something quite different.
Run out of ideas and arguments? Not at all. I feel that is Simon
Roberts, to whom the comments were addressed, who has reached this
point.
Incidentally, Mr. Roberts is not an "opponent", but simply another
voice in this forum, like you, as a matter of fact.
TD
O
<tomd...@mac.com> wrote:
Well, it was at a legal symposium on copyright matters, but even those
lawyers dissembled at pronouncing anything as even remotely set in
concrete. More like set in Jello.
-Owen
Tom Deacon
That's more like it.
Copyright is a quagmire.
TD
herman
wrote:
>
> > >Strange.
>
> > >You seem completely unwilling or unprepared to give BM even the
> > >slightest benefit of a doubt here. Do you dislike him and his opinions
> > >so intensely?
>
>
Yoshiyuki Mukudai
> I was unaware until now that BM had bothered to reply to Mr. WIlliams'
> article about Hatto. EM's recent bizarre note about the Wikipedia
> article on Hatto (I have only just read this and will comment further
> in another post) caused me to dig out Williams' article which is cited
> in the Wikipedia entry.
> Anyway, others may be interested in reading BM's take on the Brahms
> Picos, and also Muraro's Ravel La Valse.
> The insidious thing about WBC's releases was that he actually
> "improved" the originals, which, if you think about it, is very
> interesting.
> FYI
> In this letter to the editor of Intelligent Life, Bryce Morrison, a
> celebrated teacher and critic, replies to our article on the Joyce
> Hatto affair, by Rod Williams, who said critics were "fooled" by
> pirated recordings put out under Hatto's name...
> A letter to the editor of INTELLIGENT LIFE magazine
> In his article on "Hattogate", as it is now unaffectionately know, Rod
> Williams pays me a blush-making compliment before delivering the coup
> de grâce. For one joyful moment I thought he had lined me up with F.R.
> Leavis, a truly great critic in another field, whose about-turn on
> Dickens once stirred a hornet's nest of controversy in academic
> circles. Having once admired Dickens as a great entertainer rather than
> a great novelist, Leavis went on to produce an entire book dedicated to
> Dickens's greatness, to the essentially Shakespearian quality of his
> novels. I make this point because it is possible to alter, or, at any
> rate, modify one's responses over the years.
> But the situation regarding Joyce Hatto is another matter. Williams is
> correct when he tells his readers that recordings by Yefim Bronfman and
> Joyce Hatto are one and the same. How then could I criticise the former
> and praise the latter? Clearly, he claims, my judgment was "warped" (he
> is fond of words such as "duped", "fooled", and "tricked") by a
> sentimental notion or legend, that of a terminally sick woman who
> apparently played with awe-inspiring brilliance.
> My reply is simple. The performances are identical except in one vital
> aspect. I have listened side by side to Sony's and Concert Artist's
> offerings [the Bronfman and the "Hatto" recordings respectively], only
> to find that their sound worlds are different. Sound is not everything,
> yet it can subtly, even radically, alter one's appraisal (many record
> companies flatter their artists shamelessly, making "small" pianists
> sound "big", or casting a tonal bloom on artists sadly missing from
> live performances). What is cold from Sony, shedding an oddly
> impersonal, fluorescent light on the soloist, becomes gratifyingly warm
> on Concert Artist. What is clear is that Bronfman's performance has not
> been lifted wholesale, but altered to suggest a different quality or
> calibre.
> Of course, Williams may reply in his defence that professional, as
> opposed to amateur, musicians should be able to listen through such
> alterations (as one is compelled to do in the case of Rachmaninov's own
> 1919-1942 recordings) and also achieve a proper objectivity by not
> being beguiled by personality over music (reviews commencing, for
> example, "Ashkenazy's Chopin is self-recommending", are sadly familiar).
> But the matter is not so simple. To repeat, sound or sonority can
> greatly shift and alter one's perceptions. The same considerations
> apply to a comparison between Roger Muraro's disc of Ravel's La Valse,
> and the later attribution to Hatto. Again, the sound has been altered
> to suggest something altogether grander, more suitably violent and
> theatrical than the original.
> Of course, William Barrington-Coupe was more cunning than many have
> suggested, hanging on to his trickery until his cover was finally
> blown. And, as Julian Lloyd Webber, in a brief but telling article for
> the Daily Telegraph, explained, there is no skin off anybody's nose
> except that of the perpetrator of this deception. His grubby and
> cynical con should be suitably penalised with hefty fines, or a return
> to the prison he formerly inhabited, where he was incarcerated for
> fraud.
> Bryce Morrison
Quote botniac fond memory on Tom Deacon.
When I was making scholastic studies on William Barrington-Coupe at Ansermetniac Bottle
Washing school for fine arts, where all saxophonist's stocktakings for an apprenticeship, in my
case for honourable master degree (by the way, and just incidentally or coin-cidentally or
co-incidentally, Ansermetniac Bottle Washing school for all saxophonists' stocktakings for an
apprenticeship is by now worldly acclaimed second highest music school in the world for all
the young musicians to next to none the world best Moscow Conservatoire in the name of
Tchaikovsky), Tom Deacon only once in his life time lamented that the irritating things happen
when Deacon very rarely for him does good and a bit humane thing. Deacon was describing,
as I'm recalling, the earthquakes in Port-au-Prince, the capital and most populous city of Haiti.
Tom Deacon was making researching Hélène Grimaud's Prince Ivan in New York City (according
to Grimaud, her Prince to be Mat Hennek was Satan and she was advised by her ex J. Henry Fair
about that in prior and she should be cautious and careful about this Satanic Hennek. But,
Grimaud in her trance didn't listened to J Henry. And, this is our history of reconciliation on
the side of USA).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Barrington-Coupe
It was about that time when I surprisingly acquired beautifully signed CD of Claudio Arrau with
date inscribed (22-3-1983) for normal used CD price at a used CD store called medimops in
Germany via Amazon.
https://www.discogs.com/Liszt-Claudio-Arrau-Apr%C3%A8s-Une-Lecture-Du-Dante-Fun%C3%A9railles-Six-Chants-Polonais-Chopin/release/15153753
This is how Deacon is being remembered for long in me and forever in my life. May he rest in
peace in his last days on this planet earth (because he and Matthew B. Tepper has failed to
purchase Beethoven 5th symphony vinyl at the USA space CD shop on the moon - thanks to
Mr. Koren, I acquired one and in up-to-date medium of Compact Disc, and it's Leonard Bernstein
conducting limited edition as the main surplus for his LB edition distributed in the summer of
1990, with which I am getting many memorabilla mainly from the USA whose naked Founding
Fathers' spirits are being exposed worldly for these recent everyday even under Joseph Biden
as their President. We are luckily living in an age of post Al Capone era without Prohibition Act,
where FBI is no use rather than playing their own worn Beethoven 5th vinyl repeatedly and
forever endlessly).
This is why, however, I don't need to drink Manhattan Cocktail any longer to reconcile with
Joseph Biden's Democrat leading Congress with great help by their greatest in history redeemer
Bernie Sanders of Vermont. And, there is for me no need to drink a shot of absinthe, as a
good news for MELMOTH, a castle owner in la France!
YM
Yoshiyuki Mukudai
redeemer Bernie Sanders of Vermont [and common good citizens like my friends John Yeh
or Henry Fogel and my good pal and my only mentor in music even if that is only spiritual
connections, our dk]. And, there is for me no need to drink a shot of absinthe, as a good news for
Herman
Yoshiyuki Mukudai
> >
> > This is how Deacon is being remembered for long in me and forever in my life. May he rest in
> > peace in his last days on this planet earth (because he and Matthew B. Tepper has failed to
> > purchase Beethoven 5th symphony vinyl at the USA space CD shop on the moon - thanks to
> > Mr. Koren, I acquired one and in up-to-date medium of Compact Disc, and it's Leonard Bernstein
> > conducting limited edition as the main surplus for his LB edition distributed in the summer of
> > 1990, with which I am getting many memorabilla mainly from the USA whose naked Founding
> > Fathers' spirits are being exposed worldly for these recent everyday even under Joseph Biden
> > as their President. We are luckily living in an age of post Al Capone era without Prohibition Act,
> > where FBI is no use rather than playing their own worn Beethoven 5th vinyl repeatedly and
> > forever endlessly).
>
> dk
You are respected by me to the extreme degree, Dan!
YM
Yoshiyuki Mukudai
> >
>
> However, this still does not explain why my name
> is mentioned in the article above.
>
> dk
That was an exaggeration that it looked as though I had purchaced LB's limited edition
on your recommendations. Actually, I had purchased it immediately when it was released
with a strange feelings for his selections and the mark "limited" that is out of the entire
25 CD set box of LB edition.
But, it is certainly because of you and your contributions to this group and r.m.c. at the time,
that I could have held all the these strange feelings throughout my life after 1994. Matthew
B. Tepper could only insult my all these questions - typically shown on his harsh insults
on my submission of the photo of 1995-1996 Mondrian exhibition at MoMA, I was questioning
to all of you, whey the dates were between October 1, 1995 to January 23, 1996, because
it seemed to me that it was MoMA's director side of insults on great Vladimir Horowitz
who was once described on February 26, 1978 in his Golden Jubilee year in White House
by President Jimmy Carter at the time as true National Treasure of the USA. I doubted
his intentions from Horowitz's reactions to his remark and his attitude and choice of works
all during that recital.
Lastly, it was due to my highest estimation that I used an inventive expression "to the extreme
degree", which is absolute and not "to an extremely degree" which remains relative.
In the mean time, I was a bit critical against France's attitude to these entire issues in the
world, that nation might be good to live in, but to my eyes and ears France is a nation that
is not enough taking role of responsibility on international affairs and relying on NATO
structure against a recent remark by President Emmanuel Macron. To my eyes, its people
are all too easy going in their attitude about the solutions of the most difficult international
affairs, with such attitudes, no resolution can be made by them the French. Belgium is
far better on the level of her people's intellect and intelligence level in life to France is
my firm opinion.
Thank you for your understanding.
YM