Bach WTC - what are the best versions?

[Andy Evans]

I haven't seen a thread on this for a while so hoping for an update. Presumably we include harpsichord, clavichord and various types of firewood, though my primary interest is the piano.

Several complete piano versions from the likes of Richter, Feinberg, Gould, Gavrilov, Fischer, Tureck, Schiff and others........

So who are your choices to navigate us through this major work?

[Frank Berger]

A bunch of incompetents playing on instruments that should have been burned years before. You must listen only to HJ Lim, of course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV8MA0miKxA

[Andy Evans]

On Wednesday, 27 July 2022 at 16:12:30 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> You must listen only to HJ Lim, of course.

Please, no! She would be close to the bottom of the list - impulsive shapeless playing with a lot of micro-pauses before notes.

I like a lot of Gould and Gavrilov, some Feinberg, some parts of the older versions like Gieseking, Fischer, Demus and Backhaus. No Richter in my case. But I'm looking beyond these to some versions I'm unfamiliar with.

But let's hear it in general from our panel of enthusiasts!

[Mandryka]

Peter Hill
Andrea Bacchetti
Jorg Demus at Museo Cristofori in Weyregg at the Attersee in 1999 and 2000 (you can get it on symphonyshare)
Valery Afanassiev

[Mandryka]

I mean, if you really MUST have a piano!

[James Goodzeit]

Aside from "best version" being completely subjective, the WTC comprises 48 individual pieces, you might have to mix and match to get a best version. Helmut Walcha on DG works best for me, as this set is performed on a period instrument as opposed to the ugly Ammer harpsichord he used in his EMI recordings. It's just a no-nonsense straight-laced performance that I can take in the breadth of Bach's musical imagination when going through the entire set (something I don't do very often) and am not to concerned with the individual interpretations of each piece.

[mINE109]

Robert Levin uses a variety of instruments: harpsichord, organ,
clavichord and even some fortepiano.

[MELMOTH]

Frank Berger a présenté l'énoncé suivant :

> A bunch of incompetents playing on instruments that should have been burned
> years before. You must listen only to HJ Lim, of course.

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV8MA0miKxA

Beuuarrkkk...

[Herman]

I have Glen Wilson and Gustav Leonhardt on harpsichord, both terrific.

[Andy Evans]

On Wednesday, 27 July 2022 at 16:25:22 UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> Peter Hill
> Andrea Bacchetti
> Jorg Demus at Museo Cristofori in Weyregg at the Attersee in 1999 and 2000 (you can get it on symphonyshare)
> Valery Afanassiev

Thanks for that - some unfamiliar names. For me Hill is too slow and Bachetti too "expressive". But I already like Demus and I'm following up Afanassiev.

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 8:20:46 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Wednesday, 27 July 2022 at 16:12:30 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> >
> > You must listen only to HJ Lim, of course.
> Please, no! She would be close to the bottom
> of the list - impulsive shapeless playing with
> a lot of micro-pauses before notes.

You have been excommunicated, effective
immediately! ;-)

Now seriously, HJ Lim is the only pianist
who makes the WTC sound completely
fresh, as if it were improvised on the spot
like jazz. Compared to her, everyone else
sounds square, dull, wooden and boring.
Even Richter, Fischer, Gulda and Feinberg.

From the mainstream performances, the
only one I can still tolerate is Feltsman.

I also like John Lewis + MJQ.

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 8:06:46 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> I haven't seen a thread on this for a while so
> hoping for an update. Presumably we include
> harpsichord, clavichord and various types of
> firewood, though my primary interest is the
> piano.

Getting excited about paleo instruments? ;-)

> Several complete piano versions from the
> likes of Richter, Feinberg, Gould, Gavrilov,
> Fischer, Tureck, Schiff and others........

No longer bearable. Still living in a cave?
Gould, Schiff and Tureck in particular are
execrable.

> So who are your choices to navigate us
> through this major work?

There are no "choices", only a set menu.
HJ Lim, Feltsman, John Lewis + MJQ.

dj

[Frank Berger]

On 7/27/2022 11:20 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Wednesday, 27 July 2022 at 16:12:30 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>> You must listen only to HJ Lim, of course.
>
> Please, no! She would be close to the bottom of the list - impulsive shapeless playing with a lot of micro-pauses before notes.
>

You couldn't tell I was channeling Dan? I thought it would have been obvious.

Seriously, though. I have no expertise in and limited experience with this music. I listened to the first few minutes of Lim and Richter and could barely tell they were playing the same music. Nevertheless, I thought Lim's playing was very beautiful. Will listen to more. It sounded improvisational somehow.

[gggg gggg]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 8:06:46 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:

(2022 Y. upload):

Repertoire: Miniature Masterpieces No. 43 (Bach)

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 10:01:28 AM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> Seriously, though. I have no expertise in
> and limited experience with this music.

Why sound so apologetic? One does not
need to be a chef or have experience with
food in order to enjoy food. Referring to
"expertise" and "experience" with music
as a listener is a perfect example of how
the music industry has brainwashed and
indoctrinated generations of listeners. No
need for philosophy -- just listen and trust
your ears.

> I listened to the first few minutes of Lim
> and Richter and could barely tell they were
> playing the same music.

They aren't. It is not the "same music". There
is no such thing as "music" in the abstract,
independent of actual performances.

> Nevertheless, I thought Lim's playing was
> very beautiful.

Good ears.

> Will listen to more. It sounded improvisational
> somehow.

Bingo! This is the very essence of performance.

dk

[Mandryka]

Let me use this thread to ask a favour.

Can anyone share with me the files of Emile Naoumoff's WTC -- especially WTC2? I just haven't been able to find it for sale anywhere.

[Dan Koren]

I have it, and I would be happy to rip it
and send a copy your way. This could
take a few days since a large fraction
of my record collection is in storage,
and I have no idea where things are
in that pile.

As a heads up, Naoumoff's approach
sounds somewhat similar to Edwin
Fischer, which many would describe
as "mainstream romantic". I find it
rather surprising that someone who
appears to prefer one's music as dry
and square as you do might even be
interested in hearing Naoumoff.

Have you heard João Carlos Martins?

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 9:54:58 AM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> There are no "choices", only a set menu.
> HJ Lim, Feltsman, John Lewis + MJQ.

Listening again to Feltsman, I am
inclined to downgrade it. I sort of
liked it when it was release, but I
find it still too metronomic after
listening to HJ Lim.

dk

[randy wolfgang]

You convinced me - I'll try Lim. If a performer can make an old warhorse sound fresh and new and exciting - thats it for me randy

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 11:05:10 AM UTC-7, randy wolfgang wrote:
>
> You convinced me - I'll try Lim. If a performer can
> make an old warhorse sound fresh and new and
> exciting - thats it for me randy

Thanks for paying attention. I am
deeply touched and very flattered.

Otherwise, trust your ears and
decide by yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV8MA0miKxA

Enjoy!

dk

[Ad Musicam]

Landowska.

[Dan Koren]

Also listen to John Lewis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22yLbGU3obA&list=PLknP6LootIA0ifKN8LY4YdjyUxsGndKua

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 11:34:59 AM UTC-7, comptea...@gmail.com wrote:
> Landowska.

Thrice butchered.

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 11:02:08 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

> dan....@gmail.com schrieb am Mittwoch, 27. Juli 2022 um 19:34:05 UTC+2:
> > Listening again to Feltsman, I am
> > inclined to downgrade it. I sort of
> > liked it when it was release, but I
> > find it still too metronomic after
> > listening to HJ Lim.
>

> Hah, my thoughts exactly in regards to
> Feltsman sounding metronomic - listened
> to bits of it about an hour ago - found it
> surprising to see you recommend

Clarification: my memory of Feltsman
is colored by hearing him live. Studio
recordings oftentimes sound duller
artistically than live performances.

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 10:26:03 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:

Lucky you! ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVWzia8jY3Oicld7KtOrTLHjTAXIRXcvM

dk

[Ad Musicam]

The only way to understand someone is to have time for him.
Landowska was as Penelope in a long last journay making stape by step the complete recording.
It was never edited correctly beause beginning in studio for 78rpm, then recorded in his home in Lakeville for 45 rpm and then turning to 33rpm.
The sound equalisation change sometime from a prelude to a fugue. Lso the pitch! She only recorded one prelude or fugue a week, and make a vast plan architectural recording, not going number by number.
It is also fascinating to heard the recording by chronologie she make it.
It take me years to enter in this recording and realy his one of greatest experience. Now, many interpretations sound totaly superficial. You have to go without any compromition into Bach writing.
But I'm only interrested in speaking about what I admire. No place in my mind and saoul for the ones I can't understand or love.

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 12:14:34 PM UTC-7, comptea...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The only way to understand someone is to have time for him.

I heard Landowska more than anyone can imagine. Landowska
was the be-all-end-all "reference" WTC when I grew up. It was
nearly impossible not to hear it for breakfast, lunnch, dinner
and supper on every classical radio station within range.

> Landowska was as Penelope in a long last journay making
> stape by step the complete recording. It was never edited
> correctly beause beginning in studio for 78rpm, then recorded
> in his home in Lakeville for 45 rpm and then turning to 33rpm.
> The sound equalisation change sometime from a prelude to a
> fugue. Lso the pitch! She only recorded one prelude or fugue a
> week, and make a vast plan architectural recording, not going
> number by number.

While all this may well be true, it is completely irrelevant to the
matter of intepretation, which stinks far more than any aspect
of the recording.

> It is also fascinating to heard the recording by chronologie she
> make it. It take me years to enter in this recording and realy his
> one of greatest experience. Now, many interpretations sound
> totaly superficial. You have to go without any compromition
> into Bach writing.

People's ears and brains are wired individually and differently.
The fact that you like what you hear in Landowska's hands
does not mean other people must hear it the same way as
you do.

> But I'm only interrested in speaking about what I admire. No
> place in my mind and saoul for the ones I can't understand
> or love.

Whatever makes one happy makes on happy. Enjoy your cave!

dk

[Mandryka]

First, thanks for this interesting post. Can you share the details of the order of her recordings of WTC? And anything you know about the her view about the architecture of the whole?

You say that "you have to go without any compromition into Bach writing. " and I doubt many people would disagree. But I don't believe that Landowska compromised herself when she was exploring the music any more than, to take an example I've been listening to this afternoon, Egarr here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUu8VySlGPk&ab_channel=RichardEgarr-Topic

(Contrast Landowska's phrasing in the same piece

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFawJxkZW3k&ab_channel=WandaLandowska-Topic

Can both interpretations really be an uncompromising exploration of the same music? )

By the way I heard that Skip Sempe was trying to get the funding to turn her house in Saint-Leu-la-Forêt into some sort of museum dedicated to her. I don't know what's happened to the project.

[Ad Musicam]

"Landowska was as Penelope in a long last journay making
> stape by step the complete recording. It was never edited
> correctly beause beginning in studio for 78rpm, then recorded
> in his home in Lakeville for 45 rpm and then turning to 33rpm.
> The sound equalisation change sometime from a prelude to a
> fugue. Lso the pitch! She only recorded one prelude or fugue a
> week, and make a vast plan architectural recording, not going
> number by number.

While all this may well be true, it is completely irrelevant to the
matter of intepretation, which stinks far more than any aspect
of the recording.""

Are you absolutly sure about this? Don't you think there are many way of making an interpretation, one of them is the time and step you plan and go into the interpretation, exactly as a composer do it when create?

"I heard Landowska more than anyone can imagine. Landowska
was the be-all-end-all "reference" WTC when I grew up. It was
nearly impossible not to hear it for breakfast, lunnch, dinner
and supper on every classical radio station within range."

Of couse we have not the same experience...
When I grew up, I never heard a second of Landowska recording because the only Bach WTC references was Leonhardt, and, only after him, Scott Ross, and, if you still wanted to heard the piano, Richter, Gould, Tureck.
Landowska was a "new surprise" for my generation, because she open a different way of what we were hearing "for breakfast, lunch, dinner".
I am in no way interrested in continuity of chronological history interpretation. This view is as dead as the old world create it. No matter about the time someone is playing. Only interrest in what he is doing, his charism and ability to have an encounter with the piece.

"But I'm only interrested in speaking about what I admire. No
> place in my mind and saoul for the ones I can't understand
> or love.

Whatever makes one happy makes on happy. Enjoy your cave!"

I wasn't speaking about "making happy".
It is a neurological way. If you really want to go without compromise to listen to music, you can't embarass your mind with poor feeling about someone or something.

I understand well your teeth are tired after bit everybody and everything, and you have the habitude of listening "beautiful music" recorded for dentist waiting room. But, please, understand, music can be sometjing else...much more radical and profund...

[randy wolfgang]

I was following with a score and after about five minutes I threw the score away so I could experience it - I certainly have never heard a Book 1 like that. What can I say - very individual dramatic I guess more concerned with mood and feeling than structure. Really enjoyed and must hear again. randy

[Mandryka]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 9:37:58 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:

> Her playing sort of reminds me of how in this world people forgot to treat things in an objective way... everything seems to be about oneself for many people, everything gets treated in a subjective way.

I haven’t heard Lim, but I wonder if you know Landowska’s WTC - and if so, do you think she treats the music subjectively like Lim? Or if not Landowska, how about Blandine Verlet? I’m not sure. I don’t know the music well enough to comment really.

[Mandryka]

Oh I forgot to say, the reason I haven’t bothered with the Lim is that WTC1 is a bit off my radar really, I am very interested in Bk 2 on the other hand.

[Jonathan Ben Schragadove]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 8:06:46 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> I haven't seen a thread on this for a while so hoping for an update. Presumably we include harpsichord, clavichord and various types of firewood, though my primary interest is the piano.
>
> Several complete piano versions from the likes of Richter, Feinberg, Gould, Gavrilov, Fischer, Tureck, Schiff and others........
>
> So who are your choices to navigate us through this major work?

Currently enjoying the Koroliov on Tacet.

[cheregi]

Regret having to just quickly pop into this conversation instead of saying something more substantial but - feel like I must post the Wolfgang Rubsam WTC, the horizontal/asynchronous approach is I guess 'mind-blowing' or at least totally fresh - bk1 on youtube here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EmXzQsiMu8 but he did do bk2 as well

[Andy Evans]

I compared quite a few versions of P+F 3, BWV848 and I liked these, which gives some idea of my personal taste. These are fairly strict tempo versions but all show a degree of flexibility and nuance within the tempo. They are around the same speed, which is to say not unusually fast or slow. And to please Dan - I hope - I've thrown in Brad Mehldau who is a good straight classical piano as well as a quirky improvisor.

Hess 1929 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scOGlNclXrY
Demus 1956 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laRIAdgscoM
Backhaus 1908 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5GKOLa4XGY
Fischer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzFkHaGpj3A
Mehldau https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32bKcUYAy3A

[Andy Evans]

Four more versions of P+F 3, BWV848.

Profuse apologies to Dan for you-know-who, he must think my head has detached from my body. They are all women, however.....

Haskil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNHboc0XOsU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8RDDUBrtpw
Loriod https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuyVi0lCcKo
Nikolayeva https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0LfSagqCZo
Kate Liu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jaLQj4t8DY

[Dan Koren]

No need to please me, whatever makes you happy make you happy.
At the same time, I must note the list above includes no fewer than
3 of my bêtes noires. Mehldau drives me nuts. Not quite classical,
not quite jazz, not quite music.

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 1:37:58 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
>
> Her playing sort of reminds me of how in this world people
> forgot to treat things in an objective way... everything seems
> to be about oneself for many people, everything gets treated
> in a subjective way.

Which is exactly what performing arts are about. If you really
believe performers should play music in an objective way, you
are really a basket case.

If you went to a theatre to watch Hamlet, would you enjoy
seeing the actor perform in an "objective way"? I doubt it.

This smells like rigid German intellectualism at its worst.

dk

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 1:24:44 PM UTC-7, randy wolfgang wrote:
>
> I guess more concerned with mood and feeling than
> structure. Really enjoyed and must hear again. randy

Concern for "structure" is for engineering and scientific
work -- not for performing arts.

dk

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <116ed9ff-2218-479d...@googlegroups.com>,

Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
>This smells like rigid German intellectualism at its worst.

Think... rightward....

[Andy Evans]

On Wednesday, 27 July 2022 at 23:39:43 UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:

Mehldau drives me nuts. Not quite classical,
> not quite jazz, not quite music.
> > dk

That's one of the best descriptions of Mehldau I've heard anywhere. He doesn't exactly drive me nuts but he rarely satisfies me and I only listen once in a while to see what mind excursions he is exploring. I completely agree with "not quite music". He's talented but frustrating. I did see him live with Pat Metheny though, and the music of the evening wasn't coming from Metheny. A very odd couple.

[Frank Berger]

I don't think we're really talking about subjective vs. objective. It's more about whether an artist should stay within some sort of accepted performance bounds or standards. We could ask Ellsworth Toohey. Or not.

[raymond....@gmail.com]

On Thursday, 28 July 2022 at 01:06:46 UTC+10, Andy Evans wrote:
> I haven't seen a thread on this for a while so hoping for an update. Presumably we include harpsichord, clavichord and various types of firewood, though my primary interest is the piano.
>
> Several complete piano versions from the likes of Richter, Feinberg, Gould, Gavrilov, Fischer, Tureck, Schiff and others........
>
> So who are your choices to navigate us through this major work?

Not a work by Bach that overly wows me, and I possess Jando and Gould I, II. To be honest I hardly ever listen to solo piano anymore, and only really like the instrument in concerto settings, or jazz combos, where it finds a niche to my ears.

I'd be open open to some other instruments, or some small combo arrangements. Guitar might be nice. Music is about texture to my ears, and pianos lack texture.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 5:12:20 PM UTC-7, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Music is about texture to my ears,

Absolutely!

> and pianos lack texture.

It depends on the instrument
and on the person playing it.

Unfortunately, mainstream
musical pedagogy has been
obsessed with "structure" for
the past century or so, and
is obsessively preaching
"structure" at the only
thing that matters in
music performance.

dk

[Todd M. McComb]

In article <918cfe73-be01-4c97...@googlegroups.com>,

Dan Koren <dan....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Unfortunately, mainstream musical pedagogy has been obsessed with
>"structure" for the past century or so, and is obsessively preaching
>"structure" at the only thing that matters in music performance.

The "preaching structure" trend peaked decades ago.

[Dan Koren]

It did. Probably around the 1970s-1980s.
The damage is still with us however. It
takes a couple of generations of artists
to recover from serious brain damage.

dk

[Mandryka]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 5:01:44 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Wednesday, 27 July 2022 at 16:25:22 UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> > Peter Hill
> > Andrea Bacchetti
> > Jorg Demus at Museo Cristofori in Weyregg at the Attersee in 1999 and 2000 (you can get it on symphonyshare)
> > Valery Afanassiev
> Thanks for that - some unfamiliar names. For me Hill is too slow and Bachetti too "expressive". But I already like Demus and I'm following up Afanassiev.

Don’t give up on the Peter Hill. In my opinion it is the most satisfactory of all the piano versions because of its poise, nuance and clarity. He is, I think, a great musician - in Bach, Beethoven and Messiaen.

Bacchetti is new. He has produced the most satisfactory French suites recording on modern piano that I know.

The Afanassiev is a big Russian playing a big piano in a big Russian way, but I’m enjoying it for some reason, that’s all.

The Demus is partly so wonderful because his piano is so wonderful!

[Mandryka]

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:14:41 AM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:

> I have problems describing this, but it is subjective vs objective in a way: Lim has a very subjective approach, not an objective one - I hear no analytical stuff, there is no distance to the composition, she plays around according to her wishes (which she is allowed to, but I find this very infantile). And I see this also in regards to people with politics or we... people need to distance themselves a bit of the things...

Well I’ve heard some of it now. How disappointing! What a lot of fuss over nothing!

I think you’re exaggerating about what she does. She plays all the right pitches in the right order, for example. She doesn’t add improvisatory cadenzas as far as I know. She doesn’t use extended piano techniques.

It’s no more a radical challenge to the tradition of Bach performance than Gould’s WTC or Landowska’s, or, from what little I’ve heard of it (two pieces), Naoumoff’s.

Listening to it did make me think one thing: it’s a great shame Rzewski never recorded WTC.

[Frank Berger]

Why does Lim have so few CD releases? Just two that I know of - Beethoven Sonatas set and a CD of Ravel and Scriabin.

[Paul Alsing]

Here is something a little different... but I like it, myself...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtoSGzJFQA0&list=PLfdMKJMGPPtzsqaMC6IQvblgmm13c6TKR&ab_channel=KeithJarrett-Topic

[randy wolfgang]

I was wondering that myself - I checked Amazon and just those two Randy

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 9:13:24 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> Why does Lim have so few CD releases? Just
> two that I know of - Beethoven Sonatas set
> and a CD of Ravel and Scriabin.

She is not a big name artist, at least not on this
side of the pond. She probably needs to wear
higher heels and change her wardrobe to get
noticed more.

She does not tour enough, and I don't believe
she ever toured in the US (or maybe I did not
notice).

She does not appear to have a recording contract
with one of the big name recording companies.

She does not have a top tier manager. She is
too much of a maverick and clearly not as
marketable as La Wang or Lang van Bang,
at least not on this continent. She does
appear to be a celebrity in East Asia.

There may be additional reasons, such as
the COVID hiatus, or getting married and
taking a maternity break.

Good enough for everyone's curiosity?

dk

[Herman]

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 4:00:41 AM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The damage is still with us however. It
> takes a couple of generations of artists
> to recover from serious brain damage.
>
> dk

The amount of insane bullshit you spread is really nauseating.

Why don't you just stick to the "I'm just a dumb guy who likes pianistes with long flowing hair, it doesn't matter what they do."

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 10:39:39 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 4:00:41 AM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > The damage is still with us however. It
> > takes a couple of generations of artists
> > to recover from serious brain damage.
>

> The amount of insane bullshit you spread
> is really nauseating.

Not even close to yours.

> Why don't you just stick to the "I'm just a
> dumb guy who likes pianistes with long
> flowing hair, it doesn't matter what they
> do."

Pletnev? Grosvenor? Volodos? Gustavo
Diaz-Jerez? You brain and your tongue
appear to be stuck on one sentence.

dk

[Mandryka]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 4:06:46 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> I haven't seen a thread on this for a while so hoping for an update. Presumably we include harpsichord, clavichord and various types of firewood, though my primary interest is the piano.
>
> Several complete piano versions from the likes of Richter, Feinberg, Gould, Gavrilov, Fischer, Tureck, Schiff and others........
>
> So who are your choices to navigate us through this major work?

I think another excellent one on piano, which I forgot about yesterday, is Bernard Roberts’s.

[Andy Evans]

On Thursday, 28 July 2022 at 01:12:20 UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

> Not a work by Bach that overly wows me, and I possess Jando and Gould I, II. To be honest I hardly ever listen to solo piano anymore, and only really like the instrument in concerto settings, or jazz combos, where it finds a niche to my ears. I'd be open open to some other instruments, or some small combo arrangements. Guitar might be nice.
>
> Music is about texture to my ears, and pianos lack texture.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

That's a very interesting post, Ray. I know what you mean about texture. I studied composing and arranging while I was at the Royal Academy of Music and it had a big influence on the music I followed thereafter. I almost never listen to guitar based rock bands, for instance, because they generally lack any interesting arrangements. I love good arrangements of jazz, like Gil Evans, Gary McFarland and Claus Ogerman. And I love a lot of electronic music like Weather Report and Herbie Hancock, both of which have marvellous arrangements and textures. One of my favourite Herbie tracks is in fact called "Textures". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKfF_sw61EI I love techno and Garage tracks.

But the piano......? Somehow I don't miss texture with the piano. I can take it for what it is. Having said that, I listen to Ravel's orchestral versions rather than the piano versions, for instance. And likewise I listen to the orchestral versions of Strauss songs and Falla's 7 Popular Spanish Songs, where I really like the Berio arrangement. I even wish that Prokofiev had written some of his piano sonatas as concerti, especially no. 7.

I do see your point.

[Mandryka]

If you’re interested in hearing textures, have a listen to Kirkpatrick’s clavichord WTC2.

[Andy Evans]

On Thursday, 28 July 2022 at 08:56:45 UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:

> If you’re interested in hearing textures, have a listen to Kirkpatrick’s clavichord WTC2.

I used to have that version and it's easier to listen to than the harpsichord, which is a full frontal assault on my ears. It's well played as well. But the clavichord is quite a "pingy" sound. OK for occasional listening but I couldn't eat a whole one.

[Dan Koren]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 11:50:42 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
>
> No wonder you rate musical
> performances on a scale...
> so idiotic...

No more and no less than
competition juries. Case
closed.

dk

[Mandryka]

There’s another clavichord WTC2 by Jaroslav Tuma which may be worth checking out if it’s streaming. By the way, re “eating whole”, I agree, and would never, or rarely, listen to a whole book of WTC - even in multi instrument versions like the ones from Daniel Chorzempa or Robert Levin.

[Dan Koren]

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 1:19:46 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
>
> By the way, re “eating whole”, I agree, and would never, or rarely,
> listen to a whole book of WTC - even in multi instrument versions
> like the ones from Daniel Chorzempa or Robert Levin.

Why not? I listen to the complete WTC every once in a while. It is
quite interesting to hear the subtle style differences between the
two books, which might otherwise go unnoticed when listening in
separate sessions. To do this the work must be played on a good
piano rather than on ear grating paleo instruments.

dk

[Andy Evans]

On Thursday, 28 July 2022 at 09:26:00 UTC+1, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> Why not? I listen to the complete WTC every once in a while. It is
> quite interesting to hear the subtle style differences between the
> two books, which might otherwise go unnoticed when listening in
> separate sessions. To do this the work must be played on a good
> piano rather than on ear grating paleo instruments.
>
> dk

Yes - I agree with that. Same with the solo violin sonatas and partitas. You have to be in the right mood, but if you're ready for it it's quite absorbing. Anyway, I usually do other things while listening to music, so it's not a case of sitting in a chair between 2 loudspeakers and doing nothing else.

[Herman]

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 10:26:00 AM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> To do this the work must be played on a good
> piano rather than on ear grating paleo instruments.
>

Complete and total nonsense.

WTC was composed for harpsichord.

If you're severily limited in your taste and cannot abide anything other than today's pianos, it's up to you. However, you're not listening to Bach's WTC the way he intended in that case. Additonally if you reject all notions of 'structure' over 'texture' and 'feeling' (both obviously massively undefined) you're in the land of grotesque bad taste.

[MELMOTH]

Herman a pensé très fort :

> WTC was composed for harpsichord.

WTC doesn't listen to itself...It READS itself...
And the original instrument was not the harpsichord, but the
CLAVICORDE, the favorite instrument of JSB...

[Frank Berger]

On 7/28/2022 9:18 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 10:26:00 AM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>> To do this the work must be played on a good
>> piano rather than on ear grating paleo instruments.
>>
> Complete and total nonsense.
>
> WTC was composed for harpsichord.
>

AFAIK, it was composed for "keyboard," which include harpsichord, clavichord and possibly organ. According to Charles Rosen, Bach was familiar with the piano, which was invented during his lifetime. Is there any evidence Bach would object to WTC being played on a modern piano?

[Andy Evans]

On Thursday, 28 July 2022 at 15:10:15 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

> AFAIK, it was composed for "keyboard," which include harpsichord, clavichord and possibly organ. According to Charles Rosen, Bach was familiar with the piano, which was invented during his lifetime. Is there any evidence Bach would object to WTC being played on a modern piano?

Makes sense to me.

[Frank Berger]

Meaning that you don't think he would have objected? A different question is whether he would have written it differently for piano. That seems likely to me (an uneducated guess), but that still doesn't mean you shouldn't play it on a piano or adapt it as desired.

[Mandryka]

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 3:57:39 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:

> Frank Berger schrieb am Donnerstag, 28. Juli 2022 um 16:10:15 UTC+2:
> > On 7/28/2022 9:18 AM, Herman wrote:
> > > On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 10:26:00 AM UTC+2, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> To do this the work must be played on a good
> > >> piano rather than on ear grating paleo instruments.
> > >>
> > > Complete and total nonsense.
> > >
> > > WTC was composed for harpsichord.
> > >
> > AFAIK, it was composed for "keyboard," which include harpsichord, clavichord and possibly organ. According to Charles Rosen, Bach was familiar with the piano, which was invented during his lifetime. Is there any evidence Bach would object to WTC being played on a modern piano?

> AFAIK Bach composed the WTC with a clavichord in mind, because of (as I pointed out in another thread already) the cantabile art of playing (and also legato) - you can get this out of a clavichord, but not a harpsichord.

Here's some Bach on a clavichord.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q389OH3kqz0&ab_channel=JaroslavTuma-Topic

What is this mysterious cantabile that you say can't be achieved on a harpsichord exactly?

Here's a harpsichord performance to remind you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZMa8zCIIrI&ab_channel=FelicesCantusBach

[Mandryka]

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 4:32:48 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:

> Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 28. Juli 2022 um 16:57:39 UTC+2:
> > AFAIK Bach composed the WTC with a clavichord in mind, because of (as I pointed out in another thread already) the cantabile art of playing (and also legato) - you can get this out of a clavichord, but not a harpsichord.

> I have to correct myself, according to what the academics know today it seems that most of Bach's keyboard music was written for clavichord (not WTC specifically).

No. I don't think that you're totally correct there.

[Mandryka]

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 4:50:51 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:

> What I understand by cantabile, and I think it should be obvious, is a singing tone, when we sing we connect dots of tones creating a sort of imaginary line. The tones on a harpsichord (as well as on a clavichord) generally disappear too quickly, but on a clavichord, because of the mechanics, it is easier to create a line (using legato), also a clavichord has (as far as I know) a wider dynamic range. I haven't listened to the instruments much, and never live (as I am not interested). But from basic understanding it follows that authentic Bach, can never be recorded Bach... yet people market hip records as authentic bach.
>
> I can't express myself better, as I haven't studied these subjects deeply and I am still acquiring knowledge myself.

> > Here's a harpsichord performance to remind you
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZMa8zCIIrI&ab_channel=FelicesCantusBach

> I listened to Landowska yesterday. No thank you. And this is not the sound of a harpsichord, but the sound of a recorded harpsichord, that was then digitalised and then brought into my conscience through headphones - far from the sound of a harpsichord in real life.


Yes Landowska's WTC is challenging!

[Mandryka]

On Thursday, July 28, 2022 at 5:05:14 PM UTC+1, Marc S wrote:

> In regards to cantabile:
>
> Out of Inventions and Sinfonias:
>
> "Forthright instruction, wherewith lovers of the clavier, especially those desirous of learning, are shown in a clear way not only 1) to learn to play two voices clearly, but also after further progress 2) to deal correctly and well with three obbligato parts, moreover at the same time to obtain not only good ideas, but also to carry them out well, but most of all to achieve a cantabile style of playing, and thereby to acquire a strong foretaste of composition." Bach
>
> I guess there are books by hipsters do find out more about that. Right now I just don't have the time for that. Although I would be interested in knowing if Bach described "cantabile style of playing" in more detail - but I think it's obvious in which way it is going - not staccato.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventions_and_Sinfonias_(Bach)#:~:text=The%20Inventions%20and%20Sinfonias%2C%20BWV,are%20three%2Dpart%20contrapuntal%20pieces.

No, Bach didn't write any more about what he had in mind by "cantabile."

When you're thinking about music as old as this, it's quite difficult to find out what people meant by words like cantabile. And indeed it's very complicated to try and make sense of the scores he left -- the rhythms etc.