My Disgust With Mr. Vroon
Marc Perman
issue of American Record Guide is the following bit of hatred,
ignorance, and bigotry, courtesy of editor Donald R. Vroon (this is in
response to a writer who feels that you can find good music in all
genres):
I...also think you are kidding me when you imply that
some rap music is good. Inner city black culture is so
rotten it is rancid. And the music that comes out of it
encourages hatred, crime, and drugs - encourages
the self-defeating behavior that keeps many blacks
at the bottom of the heap even after four waves of
immigrants came along and started off lower. It is the
jaundiced hatred of sick minds.
Vroon goes on to state that "rock is also the music of childish
rebellion and vulgarity." He notes that "there is something in most
of us that responds to hatred, violence, and sheer lust," and asks
"Isn't that going to destroy our whole civilization?"
Mr. Vroon might be better suited to writing for a publication more in
tune with his racist views (does the KKK review music?), or perhaps
one of those periodicals that argues that the Holocaust didn't happen.
Marc Perman
mark koldys
<per...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> the following bit of hatred,
> ignorance, and bigotry, courtesy of editor Donald R. Vroon
How interesting that you immediately launch personal, ad hominem
attacks against Mr Vroon, without arguing against or disproving even
ONE of the substantive statements that he makes. I guess personal
destruction is more important than discussion of the issues raised.
mk
Tony Movshon
mark koldys <mDelete...@flash.net> writes:
> <per...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > the following bit of hatred,
> > ignorance, and bigotry, courtesy of editor Donald R. Vroon
>
> How interesting that you immediately launch personal, ad hominem
> attacks against Mr Vroon, without arguing against or disproving even
> ONE of the substantive statements that he makes.
What substantive statements would those be? I didn't see any in the
piece that Marc quoted.
--
Tony Movshon mov...@nyu.edu
Center for Neural Science New York University
mif
antithesis of PC and so becomes the target of vile name-calling and
unfair association (KKK and anti-semitism). One may agree or disagree
with him on this or any other issue he likes to rant about (yes, he
does love to rant) but do the words he wrote constitute racism or
anti-semitism? I don't see it.
Yours in brotherhood,
MIF
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
mark koldys
<to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote:
> What substantive statements would those be? I didn't see any in the
> piece that Marc quoted.
Well, if you want to argue that rap "music" is in fact of the same
quality as Brahms and Beethoven, and that it doesn't encourage
violence, or drugs, go ahead, knock yourself out. I suspect it's the
complete and total impossibility of making such an argument that leads
some to just calling names and smearing people.
mk
mt
said as to *who* says it. Coming from Vroon, this is yet another pearl
in a long string of unfortunate, reactionary and idiotic mouthings. Even
if one were (as one shouldn't) separate the mouthed from the mouther,
there are many other and better ways of saying that rap is generally
shitty music (I believe it is).
It seems to me that Vroon is full of anger and when he writes he says
more about himself than about music.
Regards,
mt
Tony Movshon
In article <311019991744561127%mDelete...@flash.net>,
Let's just stick to the "substantive" question, shall we?
mark koldys
<to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote:
> Let's just stick to the "substantive" question, shall we?
That IS the substance of the quoted passage. The business about
smearing Vroon and calling him names is just the ad hominem attack of
someone who refuses to address the validity of what he wrote, and
instead smears and attacks the author personally.
I'm still waiting to hear the arguments that suggest rap "music" is not
of a lower order than Beethoven and Brahms; I'm still waiting to hear
someone claim (with a straight face) that it has not encouraged
violence.
AV
I'm still waiting to hear the arguments that suggest rap "music" is not
of a lower order than Beethoven and Brahms; I'm still waiting to hear
someone claim (with a straight face) that it has not encouraged
violence.
---- okay, i'll bite-----
Certainly there are many many examples of rap music that shows a strong
affinity to violence and drugs and sexism. But as long as we are going
to limit ourselves in discussing this by general categories, then let me
remind you that this particular sub-genre has generally been called
"ganger rap" or more exactly "gangsta rap". And yes, this has certainly
grown out of the black sub-culture of gangs, most especially in the west
coast east coast rivalry. And let me further remind you that there is as
much criticism of this "brand" of rap music WITHIN the rap culture as
there is outside of it.
But that isn't all there is to be found in rap music. Much of it, if not
most of it (sorry, I haven't taken a count) shows a vibrant and
downright startling poetry in its expanded use of rhythm/meter/rhyme.
Although perhaps not a conscious derivation, much can be said of its
connection to early dadaist sound poems.
If you are looking for actual musical structure, in traditional terms,
certainly such is not found to a wide degree. Most of the true rap
artists are poets first and musicians second. Just the same, if we widen
the discussion a bit to include hip-hop artists, and their sampling
creations, then we can add "collage" to the terms of description. But
again, a very untraditional music, one that defies categorization even
within the world of music per se. At least to my mind.
All in all in criticising this form of musical art (as it is essentially
WORD music) one should be very careful about gross generalizations.
Listen to Lauryn Hill for rap about the struggles of a young black
woman, or early Grandmaster Flash for a cris de coeur of a young man
trying to survive in the inner city.
The artfulness and passion of this genre is there to be found, if one is
willing to look.... and listen.
But I'm not going to even try to compare it to Brahms. I wouldn't stoop
to such. It would be an idiotic exercise that does no service to either
Brahms or rap artists.
av
P.C. Karnowski
you conclude that it was subject matter comparable to, say, Alexander's
Feast, it soon became apparent that the main course of said feast was, ahem,
the sausage-shaped portion of the male anatomy. Of course, it was some
anonymous "bitch" and "ho" that was invited to partake of the
festivities...Clever stuff, don't you think? Appeals to our finer
sensibilities.
--P.C.
mark koldys <mDelete...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:311019991744561127%mDelete...@flash.net...
> In article <y03T3.32$GD5....@typhoon.nyu.edu>, Tony Movshon
> <to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> > What substantive statements would those be? I didn't see any in the
> > piece that Marc quoted.
>
> Well, if you want to argue that rap "music" is in fact of the same
> quality as Brahms and Beethoven, and that it doesn't encourage
> violence, or drugs, go ahead, knock yourself out. I suspect it's the
> complete and total impossibility of making such an argument that leads
> some to just calling names and smearing people.
>
> mk
William H. Pittman
Well...I agree that Vroon is somewhat of an ass, but I'm afraid I agree
with at least his estimations of the quality of rap music, and rock music
in general.
I attend a fitness center which plays various kinds of rock music most of
the time. Lots of it is not really music, if "music" still means something
with melody, harmony, rhythm and timbre. Rock music only has rhythm, so
far as I can tell. Certainly no dynamic range!
William H. Pittman
paul...@aol.com (Paul mastr) wrote:
>I think Vroom in his over the top way, raised valid issues with the
>pop/rock/rap world of music that IS written to a 14 year old's mind set, and as
>he says, not a very smart 14 year old either.
Funny thing is that when I was 14 (in 1949), my contemporaries apparently
had a much higher quality mindset.
samir ghiocel golescu
I entered too many "hot" debates lately and didn't want to enter this one,
not out of cowardness, but I don't have the time for articulating clearly
and completely all I feel on the matter and, surprise, I am not even sure
I can do it -- I mean that I would have the sociological, philosophical,
political knowledge necessary in discussing such, very sensitive,
matters. Still, I feel strong enough on the matter as to speak up, for
once.
On the other hand, beyond minutiae in which anyone and anything could be
rendered vulnerable or "culpable", beyond also the fact that I can
antipathize Mr. Vroon or consider some (other) things said by him
(very!) stupid, I cannot other than acknowledge his courage in naming what
should be obvious for anyone who prefers truth to abstractions and
unappropriate "principles", and Mr. Koldys's (are you Jewish, Mr. Koldys?,
just curious) courage to take an uncomfortable, in our days, stance.
I am very sure that, even if U.S. possesses one of the most evolved
democratic cultures in the entire history, there are in it very many
perfectible elements (there is not such a thing as a perfect society) and
also that there are many prejudices to be confronted, in the day by day
life, and there are many things to be done, on the behalf of the Black
people and of other minorities. The simple fact that I study in U.S.
is a proof of my humble admiration for many of the ideas and principles
U.S. stands -- or tries to stand -- for. What I do most definitely dislike
is dragging cultural matters in the field of the socio--political debate,
using into that completely inappropriate criteria and arguments.
The minority-pertaining people who (still) are victims of racist thinking, of
prejudice, do not gain absolutely anything from the defense of what
supposedly would culturally represent them. On the contrary, if I were a
Black guy, I would have been offended by being compulsorily identified to
a sub-"culture" like the one we are talking about.
I can speculate myself on the different semantic strata of the music or on
the different social functions the music is fulfilling or to rant against
the much despised "Western ethnocentrism" (is there any culture not to be
"ethno-centered", many of them much more so than the Western(s)
culture(s)?! ) But what I am concerned with is seeing reality
distorted toward the unrecognizable. I cannot other than admire the Black
pianist who signs Paul and who rejected what strikes me as a futile and
unhealthy defense for a "culture" (the rap thing) nobody is supposed to
look up, beyond -- and in absolute disjunction with -- any racial
considerations. If I say that the Germans orchestras are better than the
Romanians orchestras I am not expressing a "racist" point of view,
just a musical judgment, and I hope my beloved compatriots would not burn
me at stake, just because I dared name a bad orchestra a bad orchestra.
I understand some persons may have an excessive but overall respectable
and understandable sensitivity to any matter related to -- or even
tangentially relatable -- to the racial thing, but I will always believe
that a sane, human, relativistic, flexible, humorous, way of approaching
these things, anyhow without mixing aesthetic judgments with moral-politic
a prioris, will serve better even the democratic intent of the
emittent(s).
This is the only posting I'm going to write in this thread, so feel free
to butcher it, pointing out my possible logical inconsistencies or
semantic ambiguities. You may succeed, but Beethoven will remain Beethoven
and musical trash will remain musical trash.
regards,
SG
Mr. Mike
<gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Mr. Koldys's (are you Jewish, Mr. Koldys?,
>just curious)
Using the word "Jewish" in any Internet discussion is a VERY dangerous concept
... trust me, I found this out myself a few years ago when I asked the members
of the FILMUS-L discussion list whether the film music composer Miklos Rozsa was
Jewish. I was prompted to do so by an article in some film music magazine which
suggested that he was. I merely wanted to know so I could turn around and say to
the person who wrote the article, "Nyah, nyah, you're wrong," but people
attributed all sorts of sinister meanings to my asking this simple question ...
in fact, I felt like I was a member of the Aryan Nations! It turns out that
Rozsa was NOT Jewish, in case anyone is interested. (This discussion, which went
on FAR too long, is all preserved in the archives of FILMUS-L which is somewhere
on the WWW.)
Just thought you might like to know... ";-/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit www.truecrime.net -- books for sale, home pages of Jack Olsen and
Stephen Michaud
------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.C. Karnowski
Kip Williams <ki...@home.com> wrote in message
news:381D0C10...@home.com...
> > The other day I heard a rap tune that was entirely about a feast.
Before
> > you conclude that it was subject matter comparable to, say, Alexander's
> > Feast, it soon became apparent that the main course of said feast was,
ahem,
> > the sausage-shaped portion of the male anatomy. Of course, it was some
> > anonymous "bitch" and "ho" that was invited to partake of the
> > festivities...Clever stuff, don't you think? Appeals to our finer
> > sensibilities.
>
> Yeah, when you describe that piece that way, *all* rap music must be
> just terrible, all right.
I didn't have to describe it "that way"; that's what it was about. I
thought it was amusing, but artless. To it's credit, I didn't catch on to
the feast metaphor until about a minute into the song. In the final
analysis, it is cartoonish music played in cartoon cars with 2 eighteen inch
subwoofers in the trunk. Wish I could be more egalitarian, but my attitude
is probably due to resentment at never having become a badass muthafucka:^)
I don't have enough experience with all rap to make a blanket
characterization--but this thread looks like it pertains to the gangster
stuff, and that's what I was commenting on. If someone wants to listen to
it, that's fine by me!
> Let me know if you hear any rap pieces about decapitating people and
> doing sexy dances with their head on a plate. Or stories about nailing
> people to a cross, or smiting entire tribes and raping their daughters.
> Or ripping people's eyes out when they're powerless after a haircut. Or
> going nuts on drugs and seeing your beloved, who you have murdered,
> mocking you at a witch's sabbath. Or one about ripping your own eyes out
> after killing your dad and marrying your mom. Or throwing kids in an
> oven and cooking them after luring them into your gingerbread house.
Personally, I prefer purely instrumental music. Most operatic pieces drive
me nuts. I'd be tempted to listen to rap before a shrill soprano in a
Wagner opera!...But in the pieces to which you refer, there is often a moral
to the story for which the violence serves to illustrate; or it intensifies
the tragedy, evoking feelings of pity. There doesn't seem to be any point
to the gangsta subject matter, just violence for its own sake. If it has a
cathartic effect, then it might be beneficial if it keeps people from acting
out, IMO.
--P.C.
PGoldst515
>I'm still waiting to hear the arguments that suggest rap "music" is not
>of a lower order than Beethoven and >Brahms
Wow, we are all just so impressed with your bold defense of Beethoven and
Brahms. What courage! What a refreshing viewpoint. What intellectual
honesty. Really, Mr. Koldys, get off it and go bait some minorities with your
racist friend.
Paul Goldstein
mark koldys
<pgold...@aol.com> wrote:
> get off it and go bait some minorities with your
> racist friend.
Thank you for your intelligent response. It's always an intellectual
thrill to discuss issues without resorting to smears and personal
attacks.
David M. Cook
>Buried away on the next-to-last page of the November/December 1999
>issue of American Record Guide is the following bit of hatred, [...]
I don't know what's worse, Vroon's questionable rants or the chest thumping
that inevitably follows.
Dave Cook
Philip Peters
mark koldys wrote:
> In article <381cad38...@news.mindspring.com>, Marc Perman
> <per...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > the following bit of hatred,
> > ignorance, and bigotry, courtesy of editor Donald R. Vroon
>
> How interesting that you immediately launch personal, ad hominem
> attacks against Mr Vroon, without arguing against or disproving even
> ONE of the substantive statements that he makes. I guess personal
> destruction is more important than discussion of the issues raised.
>
> mk
This message will self-destruct and so should Mr. Vroon's and probably
yours. I'm not going to *argue* against blatant racism, it's not
necessary (although your post almost had me thinking for a minute).
Philip (sheesh)
mark koldys
<phi...@p-peters.demon.nl> wrote:
> I'm not going to *argue* against blatant racism
Why is criticism of rap "music" and other cultural debasements "blatant
racism"? Is everything equal? Is nothing better than anything else?
Tony Movshon
mark koldys <mDelete...@flash.net> writes:
> <to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> > Let's just stick to the "substantive" question, shall we?
>
> That IS the substance of the quoted passage. The business about
> smearing Vroon and calling him names is just the ad hominem attack of
> someone who refuses to address the validity of what he wrote, and
> instead smears and attacks the author personally.
>
> someone claim (with a straight face) that it has not encouraged
> violence.
Let me try to help you through this complex concept. No one cares
whether Vroon prefers Beethoven to rap; that's a matter of his taste,
which would presumably be shared by many in this forum. What are
objectionable are his implicit claims that a) the inferiority of rap
is a direct consequence of the fact that inner-city blacks perform it
and listen to it, and b) the prevalence of crime and the socioeconomic
disadvantages of inner-city blacks are in part due to their taste in
bad music that encourages them to behave badly.
Of course, in "A Clockwork Orange" Kubrick tells us that the scherzo
of Beethoven's 9th makes people behave badly, too. And others would
hold that Wagnerian music-drama is responsible for some of Hitler's
more disagreeable tendencies. Verily, there's no end to the power of
music. Perhaps it should all be banned.
Paul mastr
pop/rock/rap world of music that IS written to a 14 year old's mind set, and as
that his quotes are rascist etc etc, BUT often in this society of political
correctness, when questions are raised like this one, the banner of rascism is
raised. As a Black man who loves classical music, who grew up with rock and
studied piano for 14 years, I think his views on Rap are to the point. It is
NOT music that elevates but does tend to be violence in its theme. In fact he
does differentiate from the music and the people it tends to hurt, saying in a
way they deserve better, and they do. Black people have much to be proud of,
but reinventing history (current trends in supposedly advanced african cultures
rivaling ancient Rome, trying to say Beethoven or this person adn that person
was of black descent) is not the way.
jason and jill
: Inner city black culture is so
: rotten it is rancid.
Of course, it doesn't occur to dear Donald that inner city black culture
consists of anything other than rapping crack dealers. To Vroon, inner
city blacks don't attend church, although there sure seem to be a lot of
churches in the inner city. They don't work, although the same folks that
complain that blacks don't work spend the rest of their time complaining
that black people are using affirmative action to steal all the jobs. I
work in downtown Philadelphia. Most of the people working in stores,
restraunts, repair shops, building staff, etc. etc. are hard working black
people. They don't take the R5 in from Bryn Mawr--they are members of
this rancid inner city black culture. The fact that the gangsta culture
is, in large part, supported and promoted by businesses as a hip lifestyle
to market to suburban white kids remains unmentioned. Most blacks hate
the gangsta culture, would love to see drug and gun culture many gangsta
bands promote packed away and shipped off, but also can't trust the police
and criminal justice system to differentiate between between law abiding
and criminal blacks.
Also, please note the racism of "inner city black culture." Hate to break
the news to you, Donny boy, but you can purchase vast quantities of drugs
of white people here in Philadelphia, as well hispanics, asians, etc. We
get white riots, white drug shoot outs, and drug dependency and white teen
pregnancy rates that are as disturbing as any in the black community.
: And the music that comes out of it
: encourages hatred, crime, and drugs - encourages
: the self-defeating behavior that keeps many blacks
: at the bottom of the heap even after four waves of
: immigrants came along and started off lower. It is the
: jaundiced hatred of sick minds.
Again, this is true of some groups, a majority of the gangsta groups, but
leaves no room for groups and artists such as Public Enemy and Lauryn
Hill.
:
: Vroon goes on to state that "rock is also the music of childish
: rebellion and vulgarity." He notes that "there is something in most
: of us that responds to hatred, violence, and sheer lust," and asks
: "Isn't that going to destroy our whole civilization?"
Hatred? Violence? Sheer lust? Are these not the basis of most operas?
Does the use of classical forms automatically provide superior morality?
Or do they allow pretentious blowhards to fully enjoy the spectacle of
hatred, violence and lust while still letting said blowhard look down on
the simple masses?
Had Vroon claimed the superiority of classical music with reference to
classical music's complexity, range of expression, intellectual vigor,
etc. his little retort would have been tolerable. H/e, to claim classical
music is greater based on subject matter considerations is patently
ludicrous.
Jason
mark koldys
<to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote:
> a) the inferiority of rap
> is a direct consequence of the fact that inner-city blacks perform it
> and listen to it
Can you quote where he says this? I must have missed it.
>the prevalence of crime and the socioeconomic
disadvantages of inner-city blacks are in part due to their taste in
bad music that encourages them to behave badly
Do you reject this as a possibility?
mk
Simon Roberts
: In article <y03T3.32$GD5....@typhoon.nyu.edu>, Tony Movshon
: <to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote:
: > What substantive statements would those be? I didn't see any in the
: > piece that Marc quoted.
: Well, if you want to argue that rap "music" is in fact of the same
: quality as Brahms and Beethoven,
Of course it's not of the "same quality"; rap music isn't classical music
or rock or jazz and it would be as pointless to judge it by the criteria
of those other musical types as it would be to judge Mexican cuisine by
the criteria of French cuisine. But even if one could view all music as
being somehow part of the same category and thus to be judged by the same
criteria, I can't help pointing out that J.C. Bach, Dittersdorf, Raff,
etc. aren't "of the same quality as Brahms and Beethoven" either. (The
only music I voluntarily listen to is classical, and my taste in music may
in fact be narrower than Vroon's; but based on what little of it I've
heard, if forced to choose between a concert of J.C. Bach concertos and a
rap concert, and if "none of the above" is not an option, I would have no
hesitation in choosing the rap concert.)
Simon
mark koldys
<si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote:
> rap music isn't classical music
> or rock or jazz and it would be as pointless to judge it by the criteria
> of those other musical types as it would be to judge Mexican cuisine by
> the criteria of French cuisine
So that's all it is, Bach is no better than rap "music" than Mexican
food is over French food? There is no standard of intelligence,
excellence, or intellect? Why then do we debate whether we should fund
symphonies? They are no better or more important than musically
illiterate "rappers".
mk
Simon Roberts
: In article <7viurh$rvb$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, Simon Roberts
: <si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote:
: > rap music isn't classical music
: > or rock or jazz and it would be as pointless to judge it by the criteria
: > of those other musical types as it would be to judge Mexican cuisine by
: > the criteria of French cuisine
: So that's all it is, Bach is no better than rap "music" than Mexican
: food is over French food?
I didn't say any of those things. My point is that evaluation proceeds
from criteria, and the criteria should be relevant to the task at hand.
You and Vroon and others are assuming that the same criteria apply to all
forms of music (or food or whatever). Why? Do you judge Mexican (or
whatever food) by the same criteria you use to judge, say, French food?
There is no standard of intelligence,
: excellence, or intellect?
There's no single, overarching, objective, transcendent standard (or, if
there is, no-one has privileged access to it and can prove that s/he
does). There are, of course, standards of intelligence, excellence, etc.,
but they are all relative to the appropriate criteria.
Why then do we debate whether we should fund
: symphonies?
It hardly follows from the fact that we debate whether to fund symphonies
that the sort of standards you believe in exist; if anything, the debate
suggests the opposite (unless you wish to assert that the only reason why
there's a debate at all is that most people are too stupid to perceive
the appropriate standards of judgement and/or apply them).
Simon
mark koldys
<si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote:
> Do you judge Mexican (or
> whatever food) by the same criteria you use to judge, say, French food?
I like a Coney Island hotdog now and then. But even so I wouldn't claim
that it is "just as good" as some fine gourmet creation. And if I ate
nothing but Coney Islands would that be good for me?
I enjoy reading old pulp novels now and then. Does that make them as
good as Shakespeare, or Hemingway? And if all I did was read pulp
novels would that be "just as good" as reading the classics?
>unless you wish to assert that the only reason why
there's a debate at all is that most people are too stupid to perceive
the appropriate standards of judgement and/or apply them
Stupidity is not the issue. Exposure, understanding, and education are
the issue. A rap-obsessed teenager is not "stupid" because he never
listens to Bach. He is deprived, educationally and culturally, by not
having been exposed to the music, and never taught the principles of
classical music composition and form. The culture in which he lives in
large part cares nothing about Bach and neither does he. Our
hypothetical rap-obsessed teenager never heard one note of Bach during
any of his Wonder Years. What little the schools may have done is too
little and too late.
Now you may suggest that it all doesn't matter, that great rap "music"
(a triple oxymoron!) is just as worthwhile as great Bach or Wagner.
That there is nothing superior in the form, development, and
inspiration of Bach and Wagner to the bleatings of rap "musicians".
That nothing is ever better than anything else because it's all just
"opinion". If you want to make an argument that silly, then be my
guest.
mk
Kip Williams
>
> The other day I heard a rap tune that was entirely about a feast. Before
> you conclude that it was subject matter comparable to, say, Alexander's
> Feast, it soon became apparent that the main course of said feast was, ahem,
> the sausage-shaped portion of the male anatomy. Of course, it was some
> anonymous "bitch" and "ho" that was invited to partake of the
> festivities...Clever stuff, don't you think? Appeals to our finer
> sensibilities.
Yeah, when you describe that piece that way, *all* rap music must be
just terrible, all right.
Let me know if you hear any rap pieces about decapitating people and
doing sexy dances with their head on a plate. Or stories about nailing
people to a cross, or smiting entire tribes and raping their daughters.
Or ripping people's eyes out when they're powerless after a haircut. Or
going nuts on drugs and seeing your beloved, who you have murdered,
mocking you at a witch's sabbath. Or one about ripping your own eyes out
after killing your dad and marrying your mom. Or throwing kids in an
oven and cooking them after luring them into your gingerbread house.
--
--Kip (Williams)
amusing the world at http://members.home.net/kipw/
Kip Williams
music?
Is it that the stench of 'superior' b.s. is worse than the music?
Simon Roberts
[snip]
: Now you may suggest that it all doesn't matter, that great rap "music"
: (a triple oxymoron!) is just as worthwhile as great Bach or Wagner.
: That there is nothing superior in the form, development, and
: inspiration of Bach and Wagner to the bleatings of rap "musicians".
: That nothing is ever better than anything else because it's all just
: "opinion". If you want to make an argument that silly, then be my
: guest.
I don't know why you persist in attributing to me things that I have not
said, but I'll try one more time. I did not say that "nothing is ever
better than anything else because it's all just 'opinion'." I said that
whether or not something is better than something else depends on the
criteria you use, and that those criteria aren't reflective of
transcendent truths; which is not the same thing at all. I also said that
it's not clear why rap and classical music should be judged by the same
criteria. You and Vroon are assuming they should, but don't tell us why.
Since you and Vroon are keen on proclaiming some views/things better than
others, and insisting on certain standards of intellectual superiority,
I'll also note that Vroon's writings are all too often intellectually
shoddy and uninformed; his frequent tirades agains relativism show he
knows little about the matter, just as his comments about inner-city
blacks show -- as has been pointed out already in this thread -- that he
is woefully uninformed about that subject as well.
Simon
Jon Bell
William H. Pittman <willi...@global2000.net> wrote:
>In article <19991031205817...@ng-fv1.aol.com>,
>paul...@aol.com (Paul mastr) wrote:
>
>>pop/rock/rap world of music that IS written to a 14 year old's mind set, and as
>>he says, not a very smart 14 year old either.
>
>had a much higher quality mindset.
But did your parents think so? :-)
--
Jon Bell <jtb...@presby.edu> Presbyterian College
Dept. of Physics and Computer Science Clinton, South Carolina USA
[ Information about newsgroups for beginners: ]
[ http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/6882/ ]
Andrys D Basten
>The artfulness and passion of this genre is there to be found, if one is
>willing to look.... and listen.
>
>But I'm not going to even try to compare it to Brahms. I wouldn't stoop
>to such. It would be an idiotic exercise that does no service to either
>Brahms or rap artists.
I didn't even see a reference to "better" in the original
posting. It seems that the writer of the note to ARG said merely
that there is something "good" in most music. But what is it,
do some classical-music reviewers feel so threatened by any
other type of music having a following that they have to change
this to "better" or "less than" ?? The whole thing is so boring
to me, and yes, it was an excuse for another rant that is based
on race because it lumps all people together who may like some
of that music.
Very disappointing, Vroon in general.
Thanks for your post.
- A
--
Andrys Basten, CNE http://www.andrys.com/ PC Network Support
http://www.andrys.com/books.html - Classical-Music Searches on one page
Search CDs, VIDEOS, SHEET MUSIC (good), Gramophone reviews
http://www.andrys.com/indox.html - Machu Picchu PhotoDiary w/Canon Elph
http://www.andrys.com/freddyk.html - Freddy Kempf's Schumann CD
http://www.andrys.com/argerich.html - available Argerich recordings
Simon Roberts
: From the responses below, it is clear that the Rap "defenders" ask Rap to
: be placed in context, though the context itself is also in dispute. But
: one can similarly place Mr Vroon in context of his own world and magazine.
: Both Mr Vroon and Rap are understandable products of this age.
: I like Rap but there's no denial some Rap artists are violent.
: I like Mr Vroon too. He certainly is not KKK and he has spoken against
: many many things (appropriately or not for a music mag) in his excellent
: magazine, which to me has good taste in musical matters and superior to
: all others. The magazine is Mr Vroon's context.
How does that context explain this:
Inner city black culture is so
rotten it is rancid. And the music that comes out of it
encourages hatred, crime, and drugs - encourages
the self-defeating behavior that keeps many blacks
at the bottom of the heap even after four waves of
immigrants came along and started off lower. It is the
jaundiced hatred of sick minds.
The first sentence is false. As others have pointed out, there's no
monolithic black culture in inner cities. Of course there are bad
subgroups within it, just as there are in any other, but to lump them all
together and call this "culture" "rancid" is, to say the least, to betray
a dismaying ignorance about the matter and to insult the vast majority of
blacks who live in inner cities. It's also false to say that only one
type of music comes out of "inner city black culture". Finally, if
many blacks are "at the bottom of the heap," how could "four waves of
immigrants" have come along "and started off lower"? What's below the
bottom of the heap?
Simon
mark koldys
samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
> Mr. Koldys's (are you Jewish, Mr. Koldys?,
> just curious) courage to take an uncomfortable, in our days, stance.
No am I not. But I thank you for your level-headed comments which
addressed issues rather than personalities.
mk
mark koldys
<si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote:
> The first sentence is false.
Because you say so? Are you applying the appropriate criteria? Isn't
that just your "perspective"?
The sentence is a broad generalization, to be sure, but should be taken
in the context of the subject matter to which the author addressed
himself.
>It's also false to say that only one
type of music comes out of "inner city black culture".
Mr Vroon did not say "only" one type of music comes out of it. He was
talking about one type of music, but didn't assert that it is the ONLY
type. Please try not to misrepresent.
>if many blacks are "at the bottom of the heap," how could "four waves
of immigrants" have come along "and started off lower"?
Heaps in general were lower in those days than they are today. We've
enjoyed a degree of heap inflation since then.
mk
Tony Movshon
mark koldys <mDelete...@flash.net> writes:
> <to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> > a) the inferiority of rap
> > is a direct consequence of the fact that inner-city blacks perform it
> > and listen to it
>
> Can you quote where he says this? I must have missed it.
"Inner city black culture is so rotten it is rancid", etc etc.
Perhaps you don't understand the word "implicit", which you omit from
the part of my message that you quote?
> >the prevalence of crime and the socioeconomic
> disadvantages of inner-city blacks are in part due to their taste in
> bad music that encourages them to behave badly
>
> Do you reject this as a possibility?
You're not too crisp about picking up sarcasm, are you? Do you really
believe that Hitler is Wagner's fault, too?
--
mark koldys
<to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote:
> You're not too crisp about picking up sarcasm, are you?
Considering the preposterous nature of some of the arguments put forth
to defend rap "music" and proclaim its timeless merit, it is difficult
to separate the serious discussion from parody. But I guess that I'm
just not as "crisp", enlightened, and intelligent as you are, so please
bear with me while I try to hobble along.
mk
mark koldys
> a) the inferiority of rap
> > > is a direct consequence of the fact that inner-city blacks perform it
> > > and listen to it
> >
> > Can you quote where he says this? I must have missed it.
>
> "Inner city black culture is so rotten it is rancid", etc etc.
My uncrisp mind doesn't see where Mr Vroon states, implies, or suggests
the causality that you claim in paragraph a). The plain import of his
words suggests to my uncrisp mind that he is saying that a debased
culture is a factor in why these inner-city blacks have not risen as
far as their innate talents and abilities would allow. But apparently
you know better than Vroon himself and have cooked up an interpretation
that is the opposite of the words he wrote!
You claim he is proposing that rap is inferior BECAUSE it's listened to
by inner-city blacks. You cite as evidence that he calls the culture
"rotten" and "rancid". Where in the wide world of sports do you get the
notion that he is therefore saying it's rotten BECAUSE it is performed
and listened to by blacks???
mk
Paul Kimoto
> Kip Williams <ki...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:381D0C10...@home.com...
>> mocking you at a witch's sabbath.
> But in the pieces to which you refer, there is often a moral
> to the story for which the violence serves to illustrate; or it intensifies
> the tragedy, evoking feelings of pity.
This is your reaction to the _Symphonie fantastique_?
--
Paul Kimoto <kim...@lightlink.com>
steve wolk
>
> mark koldys <mDelete...@flash.net> writes:
> > <per...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > > the following bit of hatred,
> > > ignorance, and bigotry, courtesy of editor Donald R. Vroon
> >
> > How interesting that you immediately launch personal, ad hominem
> > attacks against Mr Vroon, without arguing against or disproving even
> > ONE of the substantive statements that he makes.
>
> piece that Marc quoted.
>
Until now, I had thought of Vroon as a curmudgeon. After reading his
latest diatribe, I now realize I was wrong. Mr. Perman's
characterization is correct.
Steve
steve wolk
>
> >
> >I'm still waiting to hear the arguments that suggest rap "music" is not
> >of a lower order than Beethoven and >Brahms
>
> Brahms. What courage! What a refreshing viewpoint. What intellectual
> honesty. Really, Mr. Koldys, get off it and go bait some minorities with your
> racist friend.
>
> Paul Goldstein
I'm afraid that Mr. Koldys just doesn't get it.
Steve
steve wolk
>
> In article <7vj074$rvb$5...@netnews.upenn.edu>, Simon Roberts
> <si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> > Do you judge Mexican (or
> > whatever food) by the same criteria you use to judge, say, French food?
>
> I like a Coney Island hotdog now and then. But even so I wouldn't claim
> that it is "just as good" as some fine gourmet creation. And if I ate
> nothing but Coney Islands would that be good for me?
>
> I enjoy reading old pulp novels now and then. Does that make them as
> good as Shakespeare, or Hemingway? And if all I did was read pulp
> novels would that be "just as good" as reading the classics?
>
> >unless you wish to assert that the only reason why
> there's a debate at all is that most people are too stupid to perceive
> the appropriate standards of judgement and/or apply them
>
> Stupidity is not the issue. Exposure, understanding, and education are
> the issue. A rap-obsessed teenager is not "stupid" because he never
> listens to Bach. He is deprived, educationally and culturally, by not
> having been exposed to the music, and never taught the principles of
> classical music composition and form. The culture in which he lives in
> large part cares nothing about Bach and neither does he. Our
> hypothetical rap-obsessed teenager never heard one note of Bach during
> any of his Wonder Years. What little the schools may have done is too
> little and too late.
>
> (a triple oxymoron!) is just as worthwhile as great Bach or Wagner.
> That there is nothing superior in the form, development, and
> inspiration of Bach and Wagner to the bleatings of rap "musicians".
> That nothing is ever better than anything else because it's all just
> "opinion". If you want to make an argument that silly, then be my
> guest.
>
I would prefer to lose my sense of hearing if all I had to listen to was
rap. But this is not about rap. It's about racism. I'm surprised that
you and others do not seem to understand this.
Steve
AV
Only this. Assuming he IS saying "only" that blacks haven't risen as far
as their innatae talents due to rap music, let us not forget that this
sort of criticism has been showered upon "race music" throughout its
short history. The evils of jazz were touted from their very inception.
All its references to sex and drugs were shown as proofs of its lowly
status. I would dare say that jazz became more acceptable with the
increasing white faces in the bands.
Beastie Boys anyone?
av
PS I also challenge your use of the word "timeless", to wit:
Considering the preposterous nature of some of the arguments put forth
to defend rap "music" and proclaim its timeless merit,...
I, for one, am not doing any such thing, i.e. proclaiming its timeless
merits. I, for one, do not feel ALL art must stand a test of time to be
declared art. There is a very valid position of art that is most
passionate for its own time, and becomes only quaint in other eras. Is a
little ditty by a court composer timeless art? I doubt it. Is it art?
Yes, most certainly. And so is rap music.
av
AV
>
> "P.C. Karnowski" wrote:
> >
> > The other day I heard a rap tune that was entirely about a feast. Before
> > you conclude that it was subject matter comparable to, say, Alexander's
> > Feast, it soon became apparent that the main course of said feast was, ahem,
> > the sausage-shaped portion of the male anatomy. Of course, it was some
> > anonymous "bitch" and "ho" that was invited to partake of the
> > festivities...Clever stuff, don't you think? Appeals to our finer
> > sensibilities.
>
> Yeah, when you describe that piece that way, *all* rap music must be
> just terrible, all right.
>
> Let me know if you hear any rap pieces about decapitating people and
> doing sexy dances with their head on a plate. Or stories about nailing
> people to a cross, or smiting entire tribes and raping their daughters.
> Or ripping people's eyes out when they're powerless after a haircut. Or
> after killing your dad and marrying your mom. Or throwing kids in an
> oven and cooking them after luring them into your gingerbread house.
>
Touche`!!!!
av
AV
>
> Why is it that reading this kind of thing makes me want to defend rap
> music?
> Is it that the stench of 'superior' b.s. is worse than the music?
>
Yep.
av
AV
>
> The minority-pertaining people who (still) are victims of racist thinking, of
> prejudice, do not gain absolutely anything from the defense of what
> supposedly would culturally represent them. On the contrary, if I were a
> Black guy, I would have been offended by being compulsorily identified to
> a sub-"culture" like the one we are talking about.
>
Bingo. It is it's own culture. And to crash the party, with vague
generalizations is at best unfair. If you are going to criticize it,
then come armed with at least a broader understanding of art history,
more specific knowledge of the various forms of rap and hip-hop, and
awareness of its variety of, dare I say it, artists. Then I, for one,
would take such criticism more seriously. Just like I take classical
music criticism seriously when confronted with the writing of someone
who has a wide perspective and scholarly knowledge. Rap deserves no
less.
av
David Grayshan
AKAI can see these *types of sentiment* are becoming more prevalent as
right-wing thinking takes over the mindset of the USA.
Marc Perman wrote:
> Buried away on the next-to-last page of the November/December 1999
> issue of American Record Guide is the following bit of hatred,
> ignorance, and bigotry, courtesy of editor Donald R. Vroon (this is in
> response to a writer who feels that you can find good music in all
> genres):
>
> I...also think you are kidding me when you imply that
> some rap music is good. Inner city black culture is so
> rotten it is rancid. And the music that comes out of it
> encourages hatred, crime, and drugs - encourages
> the self-defeating behavior that keeps many blacks
> at the bottom of the heap even after four waves of
> immigrants came along and started off lower. It is the
> jaundiced hatred of sick minds.
>
> Vroon goes on to state that "rock is also the music of childish
> rebellion and vulgarity." He notes that "there is something in most
> of us that responds to hatred, violence, and sheer lust," and asks
> "Isn't that going to destroy our whole civilization?"
>
> Mr. Vroon might be better suited to writing for a publication more in
> tune with his racist views (does the KKK review music?),
"The White Peacock"? Or even "White Christmas"?
> or perhaps
> one of those periodicals that argues that the Holocaust didn't happen.
>
> Marc Perman
AV
> No am I not. But I thank you for your level-headed comments which
> addressed issues rather than personalities.
>
> mk
Mr. Koldys, I adddressed the issues in my first post about rap music,
but you have totally ignored it. Are you only responding to posts that
you can tear apart? At least do me the honor of tearing my post apart
too.
av
Dave
wrote:
>Buried away on the next-to-last page of the November/December 1999
>issue of American Record Guide is the following bit of hatred,
>ignorance, and bigotry, courtesy of editor Donald R. Vroon (this is in
>response to a writer who feels that you can find good music in all
>genres):
>
> I...also think you are kidding me when you imply that
> some rap music is good. Inner city black culture is so
> rotten it is rancid. And the music that comes out of it
> encourages hatred, crime, and drugs - encourages
> the self-defeating behavior that keeps many blacks
> at the bottom of the heap even after four waves of
> immigrants came along and started off lower. It is the
> jaundiced hatred of sick minds.
>
>Vroon goes on to state that "rock is also the music of childish
>rebellion and vulgarity." He notes that "there is something in most
>of us that responds to hatred, violence, and sheer lust," and asks
>"Isn't that going to destroy our whole civilization?"
>
>Mr. Vroon might be better suited to writing for a publication more in
>tune with his racist views (does the KKK review music?), or perhaps
>one of those periodicals that argues that the Holocaust didn't happen.
>
>Marc Perman
It amazes me when people wonder why classical music is in decline when
these exclusive elitist ramblings take place.
Simon Roberts
: In article <7vj736$4ir$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, Simon Roberts
: <si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote:
: > The first sentence is false.
: Because you say so? Are you applying the appropriate criteria? Isn't
: that just your "perspective"?
It's the perspective of someone working in the same city that Jason does
(see his post re Philadelphia above), where my observations mesh with his
(as far as I can tell, the same is true of New York and D.C. too). I
would add that I ride to work every day on the subway, at least 80% of
whose users are black and doing the same thing -- going to work, not
heading off to street corners to perform drug deals etc. The reading
matter I most often see, along with newspapers, is bibles, usually the
King James version. What is the basis of Vroon's statement?
: The sentence is a broad generalization, to be sure, but should be taken
: in the context of the subject matter to which the author addressed
: himself.
How, exactly? If he meant that subversive rap music is created by a
subversive subclass (which may or may not be true; I have no idea), why
didn't he say so rather than making the statement he actually made?
: >if many blacks are "at the bottom of the heap," how could "four waves
: of immigrants" have come along "and started off lower"?
: Heaps in general were lower in those days than they are today. We've
: enjoyed a degree of heap inflation since then.
It doesn't matter. "Lower" and "bottom" are relative, not absolute.
Simon
Simon Roberts
: It amazes me when people wonder why classical music is in decline when
: these exclusive elitist ramblings take place.
That might be true if his stuff was published in a publication with a
wide readership, but the only people who see Vroon's "elitist ramblings"
are that very small portion of those who listen to classical music who
read his magazine. They obviously don't deter those who don't listen to
classical music, and surely they don't make those who read his magazine
give up on classical music. I suspect that the biggest effect, if any, of
his comments (aside from sparking threads like this) is to lose the
magazine a few subscriptions or other sales.
Simon
mark koldys
<sjw...@erols.com> wrote:
> But this is not about rap. It's about racism.
Because you say so?
mk
mark koldys
wrote:
> I adddressed the issues in my first post about rap music,
> but you have totally ignored it.
I'm sorry, I must have confused it with sarcasm or parody. In a world
where rap "music" can be considered "art" on the same plane as the
Missa Solemnis, it's hard to tell who is pulling whose cyber legs.
mk
paulgo...@my-deja.com
And he is also editing out the parts of posts that he doesn't want to
deal with. What a jerk.
--
Paul Goldstein
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
paulgo...@my-deja.com
mark koldys <mDelete...@flash.net> wrote:
> In article <19991031195151...@ng-ba1.aol.com>, PGoldst515> Thank you for your intelligent response. It's always an intellectual
> thrill to discuss issues without resorting to smears and personal
> attacks.
You experience intellectual thrills very easily, daring to champion
Beethoven and Brahms over rap music; then editing out the sting of my
post to take a cheap potshot at the tagline. Why don't you crawl back
into whatever hole you came from, jerk? Keep your prose for the august
ARG, where I can safely avoid you.
Philip Peters
mark koldys wrote:
> In article <381CF0EA...@p-peters.demon.nl>, Philip Peters
> <phi...@p-peters.demon.nl> wrote:
>
> > I'm not going to *argue* against blatant racism
>
> Why is criticism of rap "music" and other cultural debasements "blatant
> racism"? Is everything equal? Is nothing better than anything else?
I find maintaining that it is a matter of "self-defeating behavior that
keeps many blacks at the bottom of the heap" racist. It's a line of
reasoning (well, it can't really be called that of course) all minorities
are familiar with. It's been shifted from: "You are of a lower race" to
"It's your own fault" and "It's a matter of cultural difference", a more
sophisticated and therefore all the more dangerous version of racism.
Philip
Kip Williams
suggesting that blacks are monolothic followers who eagerly trail
immoral rappers to destruction. Even prefacing that with a statement of
how much we love them doesn't remove the fact of this insulting
characterization.
He would seem to be judging an entire race by the behavior of the guy in
the next car over. This sweeping generalization strikes me as sounding
prejudiced.
--
--Kip (Williams)
amusing the world at http://members.home.net/kipw/
Tony Movshon
mark koldys <mDelete...@flash.net> writes:
> <sjw...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> > But this is not about rap. It's about racism.
>
> Because you say so?
I realize that either a) Mr. Koldys is so astonishingly naive that he
really doesn't understand Vroon's message, or b) he's just a tedious
troll. In either case, I think the "discussion" should be terminated
as a waste of bandwidth.
Chosen One
>
> Buried away on the next-to-last page of the November/December 1999
> issue of American Record Guide is the following bit of hatred,
> ignorance, and bigotry, courtesy of editor Donald R. Vroon (this is in
> response to a writer who feels that you can find good music in all
> genres):
>
> I...also think you are kidding me when you imply that
> some rap music is good. Inner city black culture is so
> rotten it is rancid. And the music that comes out of it
> encourages hatred, crime, and drugs - encourages
> the self-defeating behavior that keeps many blacks
> at the bottom of the heap even after four waves of
> immigrants came along and started off lower. It is the
> jaundiced hatred of sick minds.
Why do you see this as racist? as hatred, ignorance, and bigotry? I of
course haven't received my Nov/Dec issue yet so I can't read the quote
you are refering to, but what is the problem with it? Truth hurts I
admit, but if we gouge our eyes out if we see something that doesn't
agree with our ideals of what we think things are, doesn't mean that it
will go away when we can't see it? If we burst our ear drums so we can't
hear a truth, just because we are deaf doesn't mean it's not true. If
someone speaks the truth - does that mean he's a racist? Absolutely not.
> Vroon goes on to state that "rock is also the music of childish
> rebellion and vulgarity."
Is this a racist statement? I don't think so. Why would you be offended
by this? Do you claim that rock & roll, or rap for that matter is art
comparable to Shostakovich, Bruckner, Mahler, Beethoven, or Vagn
Holmboe? Is that why you are "angry" at Vroon because he popped your
lazy bubble?
>He notes that "there is something in most
> of us that responds to hatred, violence, and sheer lust," and asks
> "Isn't that going to destroy our whole civilization?"
Why does this offend you? You don't care to hear the truth? You are just
like all of the rest of the whiners in America who see the violence in
our society and want to blame it on everything else but the true
cause...the person who committed the violence. Want to know why? Because
you can't handle the idea in your mind that you yourself could give in
to your natural instincts and embrace the bloodlust that is in all of
us.
> Mr. Vroon might be better suited to writing for a publication more in
> tune with his racist views (does the KKK review music?), or
> perhaps one of those periodicals that argues that the Holocaust didn't > happen.
Isn't it nice to sit in front of a computer screen and accuse someone of
being a racist and intolerant, when in fact you are the one that is
intolerant. You obviously are an angry person who won't let anyone have
an opinion unless it is the right opinion, and that right opinion is
yours and yours alone. I'm sure though that if you met Donald Vroon that
you would tell these things to his face after meeting him and spending
an afternoon with him. I'm sure that he would fit every one of your
stereotypes and then you could condemn him all the more.
Perhaps you would like to get a firing squad for each person in this
world who disagrees with your world-view. Line them up and execute each
one of them - while you're creaming your pants with secret fantasies of
rimming a young skinhead boy who is a member of the Christian Identity
Movement.
There is one solution though to your problem with Donald Vroon. DON'T
BUY AMERICAN RECORD GUIDE! Instead of whining, complaining, and pooping
about how much you think Donald Vroon is the reincarnation of Adolf
Hitler, just ignore him and don't support his magazine. Buy Fanfare
which is a decent alternative to ARG.
Holocaust? What Holocaust?
Chosen One
Mr. Mike
> doing sexy dances with their head on a plate. Or stories about nailing
> people to a cross, or smiting entire tribes and raping their daughters.
> Or ripping people's eyes out when they're powerless after a haircut. Or
> going nuts on drugs and seeing your beloved, who you have murdered,
> mocking you at a witch's sabbath. Or one about ripping your own eyes out
> after killing your dad and marrying your mom. Or throwing kids in an
> oven and cooking them after luring them into your gingerbread house.
Well, I've heard some rap music which calls women "bitches" and "whores" (or the
vernacular equivalent of same) ... that's right up there.
Mr. Mike
>I realize that either a) Mr. Koldys is so astonishingly naive that he
>really doesn't understand Vroon's message, or b) he's just a tedious
>troll. In either case, I think the "discussion" should be terminated
>as a waste of bandwidth.
Not yet ... no one has called someone else a "Nazi" yet (I think) ... the end to
which all Usenet arguments aspire! ";-/
Gloria S Chase
at home on local talk radio than with the Klan. He probably bases his
rant on some article he read in Time back in '91 rather than a close
listening of (to pick the best name) Ol' Dirty Bastard. He's certainly
not worth losing sleep over.
Just bought my first rap record not long ago: "Straight Dope" by the
Geto Boys. Damned interesting stuff actually. Reminded me most of the
old English and Appalachian murder songs and badman ballads. The same
tone of violent nihilism can be found there. (For that matter, it's also
in the Roman historians and Shakespeare; were their cultures so rotten
they were rancid?) It is folk music for our day. No doubt that'll be
someone's doctoral thesis soon enough.
And if you want to understand rap listen to James Brown. He's the guy
who got rid of chord changes.
And saying Brahms is *better music* than rap is like saying Petrus
Pomerol is a better wine than Green River. It's more sophisticated
certainly, it's nobler, richer, fuller, it's demands upon and rewards to
the trained taster are more intense, and it sure as hell tastes better,
but it isn't the better wine for getting real drunk, real cheap, real
fast. It's a matter of intent, isn't it?
Brian J. Chase
Marc Perman wrote:
>
> Buried away on the next-to-last page of the November/December 1999
> issue of American Record Guide is the following bit of hatred,
> ignorance, and bigotry, courtesy of editor Donald R. Vroon (this is in
> response to a writer who feels that you can find good music in all
> genres):
>
> I...also think you are kidding me when you imply that
> some rap music is good. Inner city black culture is so
> rotten it is rancid. And the music that comes out of it
> encourages hatred, crime, and drugs - encourages
> the self-defeating behavior that keeps many blacks
> at the bottom of the heap even after four waves of
> immigrants came along and started off lower. It is the
> jaundiced hatred of sick minds.
>
> Vroon goes on to state that "rock is also the music of childish
> rebellion and vulgarity." He notes that "there is something in most
> of us that responds to hatred, violence, and sheer lust," and asks
> "Isn't that going to destroy our whole civilization?"
>
> Mr. Vroon might be better suited to writing for a publication more in
> tune with his racist views (does the KKK review music?), or perhaps
> one of those periodicals that argues that the Holocaust didn't happen.
>
> Marc Perman
Ernest Jones
encouraging the S.O.B's bigotry!
Ernest Jones
Retired Music & Cruise Crazy Brit.
On Sunny Isles Beach
Life is an Opera
John Carter
you let your daughter marry a subscriber to r.m.o.? John Carter Barsoom.
mark koldys <mDelete...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:311019992152430074%mDelete...@flash.net...
> In article <ew6T3.53$GD5....@typhoon.nyu.edu>, Tony Movshon
> <to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> > a) the inferiority of rap
> > is a direct consequence of the fact that inner-city blacks perform it
> > and listen to it
>
> Can you quote where he says this? I must have missed it.
>
> disadvantages of inner-city blacks are in part due to their taste in
> bad music that encourages them to behave badly
>
> Do you reject this as a possibility?
>
> mk
Ramon Khalona
different kinds of music (Rap, Salsa, Jazz, Rock, etc.) can and do
coexist.
--
Ramón Khalona "La razón no sirve para la existencia"
Carlsbad, California - Ernesto Sábato -
Ramon Khalona
>
> In article <y03T3.32$GD5....@typhoon.nyu.edu>, Tony Movshon
> <to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
> > What substantive statements would those be? I didn't see any in the
> > piece that Marc quoted.
>
> Well, if you want to argue that rap "music" is in fact of the same
> quality as Brahms and Beethoven, and that it doesn't encourage
> violence, or drugs, go ahead, knock yourself out. I suspect it's the
> complete and total impossibility of making such an argument that leads
> some to just calling names and smearing people.
Rap can also be a *reaction* to that kind of environment. I'm not a rap
lover by any means, but I think that the world would be a better place
if people reacted to such harsh conditions by just writing or listening
to rap music rather than generating more violence.
AV
It is folk music for our day. No doubt that'll be
> someone's doctoral thesis soon enough.
Hear hear!!!
>
> And if you want to understand rap listen to James Brown. He's the guy
> who got rid of chord changes.
>
But he's full of raw sex and rebellion. Isn't he? :o)
av
AV
>
> In article <381D6DBE...@together.net>, AV <av...@together.net>
> wrote:
>
> > I adddressed the issues in my first post about rap music,
> > but you have totally ignored it.
>
> where rap "music" can be considered "art" on the same plane as the
> Missa Solemnis, it's hard to tell who is pulling whose cyber legs.
>
> mk
Well, then you're putting anyone who answers you into a trap of your own
making. You asked that someone respond with substantive remarks, of
which I took pains to. But instead of taking the trouble of refuting
them point by point, your dismissive stance shows a complete
unwillingness of your own to debate the issue with substance.
And who put it on the same plane as the Missa Solemnis? Certainly not I.
First of all, I ended my points by refusing to compare Brahms and Rap,
which you so glibly challenged. (Now it is Missa Solemnis and Rap).
Secondly, who are you to determine just what is art? Are Indian
Petroglyphs not art because one dare not compare them in the same breath
as Ingres?
In the least, give me a break. In the most, defend thyself.
av
mark koldys
<to...@cns.nyu.edu> wrote:
> either a) Mr. Koldys is so astonishingly naive that he
> really doesn't understand Vroon's message, or b) he's just a tedious
> troll.
All right! More personal attacks and name calling. For a while I feared
that this discussion might veer off into side areas and not focus on ad
hominem attacks and smears.
As for tedious trolls, you'll have to address that to the person who
started this thread. It wasn't I. I posted in response to a discussion
that was already on the table. Unless, of course, you are of the view
that once an approved opinion has been stated, the only purpose for
further posts is to dangle an endless string of messages parrotting the
same party line. A bunch of "me too" posts congratulating each other on
their insight and nobility is what you get when dissenting opinions are
not tolerated. But then "tolerance" is what this was all about, wasn't
it? I guess my uncrisp mind is just not PC enuff to grasp all this.
mk
mark koldys
<jrca...@marcopolo26.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Well look at how all the violence in opera makes that group behave! Would
> you let your daughter marry a subscriber to r.m.o.?
Oh yeah, there are always beatings, rapes, and drug overdoses at
operas. And those opera singers are always getting arrested.
mk
mark koldys
wrote:
> And who put it on the same plane as the Missa Solemnis? Certainly not I.
> First of all, I ended my points by refusing to compare Brahms and Rap,
> which you so glibly challenged. (Now it is Missa Solemnis and Rap).
Ah, then you have accepted my point, that simple-minded rap "music" is
in fact inferior to the great classics. Why should I want to dispute
you when you are agreeing with me?
> Secondly, who are you to determine just what is art? Are Indian
> Petroglyphs not art because one dare not compare them in the same breath
> as Ingres?
Comic books are literature, of a sort. So is Hemingway. Both have their
place. To call comic books "art" is a stretch, but it could be the
case. But they are hardly art of the order of Hemingway. Why is this so
difficult to understand?
mk
mark koldys
wrote:
> Why don't you crawl back
> into whatever hole you came from, jerk?
Thank you for your intelligent response. It's always an intellectual
thrill to discuss issues without resorting to smears and personal
attacks.
mk
David R L Porter
from "P.C. Karnowski" <p.kar...@worldnet.att.net> contains these words:
> The other day I heard a rap tune that was entirely about a feast. Before
> you conclude that it was subject matter comparable to, say, Alexander's
> Feast, it soon became apparent that the main course of said feast was, ahem,
> the sausage-shaped portion of the male anatomy. Of course, it was some
> anonymous "bitch" and "ho" that was invited to partake of the
> festivities...Clever stuff, don't you think? Appeals to our finer sensibilities.
Couldn't agree more. It gets worse:
'Stupid yap, shut your trap.
I'll shit in your face
And hope that will awaken you.
O dearest Martin, I earnestly beg you
Kiss me right now in the ass;
O kiss, kiss, kiss me right now in the ass.
O dearest friend pray excuse me
I'll seal up my ass for you ...'
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, 1788.
Gotta watch those sensibilities ...
--
Best wishes,
Simon Roberts
: In article <381DC04E...@together.net>, AV <av...@together.net>
: wrote:
: > And who put it on the same plane as the Missa Solemnis? Certainly not I.
: > First of all, I ended my points by refusing to compare Brahms and Rap,
: > which you so glibly challenged. (Now it is Missa Solemnis and Rap).
: Ah, then you have accepted my point, that simple-minded rap "music" is
: in fact inferior to the great classics. Why should I want to dispute
: you when you are agreeing with me?
It seems you won't ever "get" it. To say that "rap music is inferior to
the great classics" is to compare them. AV said he won't do that. I said
I see no point in making the comparison because there's no reason why the
two should be judged by the same criteria (which may or may not be similar
to the point AV is making).
: > Secondly, who are you to determine just what is art? Are Indian
: > Petroglyphs not art because one dare not compare them in the same breath
: > as Ingres?
: Comic books are literature, of a sort. So is Hemingway. Both have their
: place. To call comic books "art" is a stretch, but it could be the
: case. But they are hardly art of the order of Hemingway. Why is this so
: difficult to understand?
Why is it so difficult to understand that no-one in this thread has said
that rap is art of the order of the Missa Solemnis (or that comic books
are "art of the order of Hemingway")?
Simon
jbay...@hotmail.com
Vroon refuses to read the internet, so unless someone is sending
him copies of our postings, we can't be encouraging him.
John
In article <7373-38...@storefull-115.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
Mr. Mike
<jrca...@marcopolo26.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Well look at how all the violence in opera makes that group behave! Would
>you let your daughter marry a subscriber to r.m.o.?
Yeah, especially if she looks like Charlotte Church! ";-/
jbay...@hotmail.com
si...@dept.english.upenn.edu (Simon Roberts) wrote:
> I did not say that "nothing is ever
> better than anything else because it's all just 'opinion'." I said
that
> whether or not something is better than something else depends on the
> criteria you use, and that those criteria aren't reflective of
> transcendent truths; which is not the same thing at all. I also said
that
> it's not clear why rap and classical music should be judged by the
same
> criteria. You and Vroon are assuming they should, but don't tell us
why.
I agree with the observation that aesthetics ultimately boil down to
criteria which are merely valueless preferences, neither universally
good nor bad. I don't see how anyone could argue anything to the
contrary.
But I don't agree that it is wrong for rap and classical music to be
judged by the same criteria. Why should that be?
John
jbay...@hotmail.com
> > <phi...@p-peters.demon.nl> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm not going to *argue* against blatant racism
> >
> > Why is criticism of rap "music" and other cultural debasements
"blatant
> > racism"? Is everything equal? Is nothing better than anything else?
>
that
> keeps many blacks at the bottom of the heap" racist. It's a line of
> reasoning (well, it can't really be called that of course) all
minorities
> are familiar with. It's been shifted from: "You are of a lower race"
to
> "It's your own fault" and "It's a matter of cultural difference", a
more
> sophisticated and therefore all the more dangerous version of racism.
It's just the same thing. However, it has become simply so indecent
to say "you are of a lower race" that intellectual cowards like
Vroon hide behind "sick culture" arguments.
If you viciously and systematically exclude people from high wage
employment and higher education for centuries, naturally their
neighborhoods are not going to spring back from poverty in a few
decades. The fact that such a simple notion must be endlessly
explained to people of Vroon's ilk is tiresomely depressing.
To then suggest that blacks have themselves and no one else to
blame for their culture is the same as saying that there is something
inferior about being black. Any way you cut that, it's racism. It's
not racism in the open. It's racism behind a very thin veneer of
pseudo-intellectual "sociology". But it is racism nonetheless.
mark koldys
<si...@dept.english.upenn.edu> wrote:
> Why is it so difficult to understand that no-one in this thread has said
> that rap is art of the order of the Missa Solemnis
Then what are they saying? That it is inferior? That's what I said.
That's what Vroon said.
Or are they just trying to avoid saying anything at all?
mk
paulgo...@my-deja.com
Tony and Ernest Jones were clearly correct about 35 posts ago - this
fellow must be a troll, such thickness cannot be real. Enough.
Paul Goldstein
Clifford Ando
> In article <7vkmqb$6gq$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, Simon Roberts wrote:
>
> > Why is it so difficult to understand that no-one in this thread
> > has said that rap is art of the order of the Missa Solemnis
>
> Then what are they saying? That it is inferior? That's what I said.
> That's what Vroon said.
"Of the order" may have been an unfortunate slip. I don't think that
Simon intended the dichotomy that you are trying to force.
I haven't read many posts in this thread, but I think some contributors
are simply arguing that generic considerations make it difficult to
compare rap and classical in the terms you employ.
It would, for example, be difficult to argue the relative worth of opera
and quartets--all of the one against all of the other. It would be
equally difficult to decide whether Wozzeck is greater than Beethoven Op.
135, or even whether Wozzeck is greater than Tristan.
What is gained by creating a hierarcy of musical art forms? If rap songs
are, on the whole, rhythmically and harmonically less complex than the
Four Last Songs, what of it? These are matters of taste, and it would be
extraordinarily difficult to demonstrate any correlation between the
popularity of particular art forms and sociological phenomena. And even
if the correlation were accepted, it would even more difficult to prove a
causal connection one way or the other. --Clifford Ando
Clifford Ando ca...@usc.edu
Classics Department phone: (213) 740-3683
University of Southern California fax: (213) 740-7360
Los Angeles, CA 90089-0352
mark koldys
Clifford Ando <ca...@usc.edu> wrote:
> If rap songs
> are, on the whole, rhythmically and harmonically less complex than the
> Four Last Songs, what of it? These are matters of taste
Yes, taste is involved. But it's more than mere taste. Do you really
mean to state that there are not standards of excellence? That the
simplistic pounding of rap "music" is in its own way just as excellent
as the Brandenburg Concertos? I don't accept that degree of aesthetic
relativism. Good writing is better than bad writing. Good music is
better than bad music.
mk
AV
>
>
> But I don't agree that it is wrong for rap and classical music to be
> judged by the same criteria. Why should that be?
>
Partly because rap music is more sound poetry and built on primitive
rhythmic patterns than musical. But this is a generalization, something
that is getting widely done on this thread so I figure I get to
generalize a little bit too.
av
AV
>
>
> All right! More personal attacks and name calling. For a while I feared
> that this discussion might veer off into side areas and not focus on ad
> hominem attacks and smears.
>
And just because your "ad hominem attacks" are a bit more sophisticated
doesnt' make them any more right. Your reason for ignoring my original
post as nothing but a joke and not worth the effort simply gives you a
glib reason to avoid making any reasoned response.
What is the difference? You're acting just as irrational.
av
Philip Haldeman
On the subject of aesthetic hierarchies, Martin Gardner has an interesting
essay: "Beauty: Why I Am Not an Aesthetic Relativist" in his book, _The
Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener_.
First of all, whoever said that we use "criteria" in our judgment of art is
sophomorically correct. Unfortunately, all that does is transpose the
argument to whose "criteria" is better or worse, so you don't get anywhere.
Gardner discusses one relatively objective factor in establishing aesthetic
hierarchies---that of intellectual and emotional growth.
In other words, a mature, intelligent adult may appreciate both Shakespeare
and a Batman comic. But even a bright 12-year-old will struggle with the
former, if he's able to "get it" at all; neither will he have the life
experience necessary to "get it". Great art is mature in its expression.
So, when you have two artistic items that are much closer on the ladder,
e.g. Waxman's music for "The Spirit of St. Louis" vs. the Mahler First
Symphony, it's far more difficult to make a judgment call.
An argument might be made that any 12-year-old can "get" (most) rap, at
least musically. But 12-year-olds are not likely to understand Brahms.
--P.H.
AV
>
> In article <381DC04E...@together.net>, AV <av...@together.net>
> wrote:
>
> > And who put it on the same plane as the Missa Solemnis? Certainly not I.
> > First of all, I ended my points by refusing to compare Brahms and Rap,
> > which you so glibly challenged. (Now it is Missa Solemnis and Rap).
>
> Ah, then you have accepted my point, that simple-minded rap "music" is
> in fact inferior to the great classics. Why should I want to dispute
> you when you are agreeing with me?
>
> > Petroglyphs not art because one dare not compare them in the same breath
> > as Ingres?
>
> Comic books are literature, of a sort. So is Hemingway. Both have their
> place. To call comic books "art" is a stretch, but it could be the
> case. But they are hardly art of the order of Hemingway. Why is this so
> difficult to understand?
>
I think perhaps then we are having a bit of a semantical problem. You
seem to be calling something are more as an act of critical bestowal. I
am calling something art more out of a judgement that the creators
themselves have devoted themselves to an act or acts of creation. I use
the term much more broadly. I don't believe in saying something is only
"art" if it has stood the test of time, i.e. another era finds value in
an earlier era's creations. Art is. Like it or not, the artist decides
that.
Dada is art.
Brahms is art.
Petroglyphs are art.
Comic books are art. (Especially Frazetta the Great.)
Bach is art.
Lauryn Hill is art.
As to high and low art, certainly these are rather widely accepted
critical terms. But so what? Just the same, I frankly don't always
understand what that means. For instance, I can still recall the
epiphany I had after reading one particular Bloom County comic of, gosh,
must have been a good 15 years ago. I classify that particular day's
strip a real work of art. George Herriman's Krazy Kat was heralded by
all sorts of high brow's of the time. His work is shear poetry of a very
sublime nature. (And it only lasted in print as long as it did because
Hearst believed in it.) So was Don Marquis, a "mere" journalist, for his
Archy and Mehitabel scribbles.
Low art becomes high when it finds the sublime through "low" means. High
art becomes low when it becomes mere pretense and bombast.
So, who's to say? What is obvious to me (but please correct me if I'm
wrong) is that you have not given the merest effort to give a careful
listen to any of the very good examples of rap or hiphop music. There
are true artists at work in this genre. Believe me. And I also truly
believe that the kids that you are trying to protect are as much aware
of the true artists as anyone.
av
AV
>
> Then what are they saying? That it is inferior? That's what I said.
> That's what Vroon said.
>
> Or are they just trying to avoid saying anything at all?
Sure, some of it is inferior. Some of it is truly horrible. It is bad
art. But what? You never heard any bad classical music? You think all
you need is some strings and maybe a chorus and that automatically makes
it true or high art?
No. The reason I refused to compare Brahms and rap music is the same
reason I would refuse to compare Bach and the Beatle. What is the point?
Bach is great for the amazing musical world that he created and the
sublime moments of his creations. But, darn it, so are the Beatles. What
do you gain by comparing them? Both suffer.
av
mark koldys
wrote:
> What is obvious to me (but please correct me if I'm
> wrong) is that you have not given the merest effort to give a careful
> listen to any of the very good examples of rap or hiphop music. There
> are true artists at work in this genre.
I've heard more of it than I've wanted to. And if you define "art" as
something that excels in its particular field, art can be anything: a
great bricklayer can be an artist in how beautifully he lays bricks.
Etc. But being an "artist" in a genre that is simplistic and debased
makes one a big fish in a very small (artistically speaking) pond.
mk
AV
>> Yes, taste is involved. But it's more than mere taste. Do you really
> mean to state that there are not standards of excellence? That the
> simplistic pounding of rap "music" is in its own way just as excellent
> as the Brandenburg Concertos? I don't accept that degree of aesthetic
> relativism. Good writing is better than bad writing. Good music is
> better than bad music.
>
>
Look my friend, the way you are talking you sound like you are my father
back in 1964 aghast at how I would dance with the transistor radio to my
ear ecstatic with the pounding sounds of "I Want to Hold Your Hand".
Years later, thoughtful man that he is, he did say how his generation
had trouble realizing the artistry of the Beatles. No one is saying, or
at least I'm not, that all rap music is worthy of your attention. But it
is an art and some of it is truly great. Of course, that's my opinion.
That it happens to also be the opinion of others heartens me that there
are other free and open minds out there.
As for standards of excellence? I don't know. Certainly I wouldn't want
to be a critic these days. The task is tough. Even in film, something I
majored in, I find myself in awe when I manage to find a really good
critic. Criticism for me is as much an art as the stuff they criticize
(e.g. Edmund Wilson, et al). But the best critics aren't dogmatists.
They aren't coming to a piece of music or a film with an ideology or a
standard per se. What exactly they bring to it is hard to put your
finger on, at least my finger. Their personal experience, of course.
Some understanding of the history of the media/genre, for sure. But
something else.... something alive inside of them.
I for one don't bemoan any loss of standard of excellence. Let the
Germans do that. They're good at it. :o)
av
mark koldys
wrote:
> You never heard any bad classical music? You think all
> you need is some strings and maybe a chorus and that automatically makes
> it true or high art?
Yes there is bad classical music; but it at least >aspires< to be
something more. I like a Beatles tune; how about you? But a simple
32-bar progression or melody with chords underneath it, no matter how
artfully crafted, is simply not in the same ball park with even a
third-rate classical composer. It's not trying to be. It has its place,
but it shouldn't be the >only< musical food in a cultural diet. A
culture that forgets and ignores the great accomplishments of the past
in favor of a shallow flavor of the day is truly being debased.
I selected a Beatles tune as a comparison because the absurdity of
defending rappers in this way still makes my hair hurt. At least the
Fab Four knew how to write a melody.
mk
Dave
Roberts) wrote:
>Dave (_jt...@yahoo.com) wrote:
>
>: It amazes me when people wonder why classical music is in decline when
>: these exclusive elitist ramblings take place.
>
>That might be true if his stuff was published in a publication with a
>wide readership, but the only people who see Vroon's "elitist ramblings"
>are that very small portion of those who listen to classical music who
>read his magazine.
Perhaps but for the newcomer to classical music the vast number of
recordings, labels etc can be quite daunting. A publication might
help with some of these problems. However the newcomer oftens
experiences hostility and other condecending remarks like the ones
mentioned. If the newcomer is alienated from publications and as a
result lacks the information these magazines provide they might just
give up all together. I have seen it over and over people telling me
they just don't know what to buy.
samir ghiocel golescu
On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, mark koldys wrote:
> In article <Pine.GSO.4.10.991031...@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu>,
> samir ghiocel golescu <gol...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Mr. Koldys's (are you Jewish, Mr. Koldys?,
> > just curious) courage to take an uncomfortable, in our days, stance.
>
> No am I not.
That's fine, nobody's perfect nowadays! (-:
Simon Roberts
: On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, mark koldys wrote:
: > In article <7vkmqb$6gq$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, Simon Roberts wrote:
: >
: > > Why is it so difficult to understand that no-one in this thread
: > > has said that rap is art of the order of the Missa Solemnis
: >
: > Then what are they saying? That it is inferior? That's what I said.
: > That's what Vroon said.
: "Of the order" may have been an unfortunate slip.
No it wasn't; I was quoting something Mark or whoever said in an earlier
post. I took "of the order" to mean in this instance as good as and, more
generally, qualitatively of the same type; so that rap music is an
inferior example of the same type of thing that the Missa Solemnis is a
superior example of. My point, as by now I've said at least four times
(or so it seems; I'm not counting) is that I don't understand the
assumption that they are of the same type, that they should be judged by
the same criteria. Is a five bedroom house in the suburbs inferior as a
building to the Empire State Building?
I don't think that
: Simon intended the dichotomy that you are trying to force.
: I haven't read many posts in this thread, but I think some contributors
: are simply arguing that generic considerations make it difficult to
: compare rap and classical in the terms you employ.
That too.
: It would, for example, be difficult to argue the relative worth of opera
: and quartets--all of the one against all of the other. It would be
: equally difficult to decide whether Wozzeck is greater than Beethoven Op.
: 135, or even whether Wozzeck is greater than Tristan.
: What is gained by creating a hierarcy of musical art forms? If rap songs
: are, on the whole, rhythmically and harmonically less complex than the
: Four Last Songs, what of it? These are matters of taste, and it would be
: extraordinarily difficult to demonstrate any correlation between the
: popularity of particular art forms and sociological phenomena. And even
: if the correlation were accepted, it would even more difficult to prove a
: causal connection one way or the other. --Clifford Ando
Quite so.
Simon
Dave Pickering
listen. Unfortunately I find it almost totally unlistenable--a situation
compounded by inconsiderate youths driving their cars around with their bass
speakers blasting so loudly it shakes the windows in nearby buildings.
Having said that, there are rappers out there--the group Public Enemy comes
to mind--with some serious and valid messages. Unfortunately those messages
are lost in the medium. And the more intelligent acts are too often lost in
the many rappers who's message consists of violence and misogeny.
It is sad that the descendants of the people who produced the spiritual, the
blues, and jazz--and who did it while suffering the torments of slavery and
then segregation--have come to this point.
Dave Pickering
dav...@earthlink.net
"If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you"
Paul mastr wrote in message
<19991031205817...@ng-fv1.aol.com>...
>I think Vroom in his over the top way, raised valid issues with the
>pop/rock/rap world of music that IS written to a 14 year old's mind set,
and as
>he says, not a very smart 14 year old either. Now we can be dismissive and
say
>that his quotes are rascist etc etc, BUT often in this society of political
>correctness, when questions are raised like this one, the banner of rascism
is
>raised. As a Black man who loves classical music, who grew up with rock and
>studied piano for 14 years, I think his views on Rap are to the point. It
is
>NOT music that elevates but does tend to be violence in its theme. In fact
he
>does differentiate from the music and the people it tends to hurt, saying
in a
>way they deserve better, and they do. Black people have much to be proud
of,
>but reinventing history (current trends in supposedly advanced african
cultures
>rivaling ancient Rome, trying to say Beethoven or this person adn that
person
>was of black descent) is not the way.
AV
>
> Yes, and good writing in a serious novel is going to be more artistic
> and worthwhile than good writing in an ad or steamy romance novel.
And what pigeon hole would you like to place that great literary
artist......
S.J. Perelman?
av
AV
>
> In article <381E1C59...@together.net>, AV <av...@together.net>
> wrote:
>
> > You never heard any bad classical music? You think all
> > you need is some strings and maybe a chorus and that automatically makes
> > it true or high art?
>
> Yes there is bad classical music; but it at least >aspires< to be
> something more. I like a Beatles tune; how about you?
oh yeah yeah yeah, i dig those Beatles.
>But a simple
> 32-bar progression or melody with chords underneath it, no matter how
> artfully crafted, is simply not in the same ball park with even a
> third-rate classical composer. It's not trying to be. It has its place,
> but it shouldn't be the >only< musical food in a cultural diet. A
> culture that forgets and ignores the great accomplishments of the past
> in favor of a shallow flavor of the day is truly being debased.
I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm not a nihilist.
Anarchist, maybe. :o)
>
> I selected a Beatles tune as a comparison because the absurdity of
> defending rappers in this way still makes my hair hurt. At least the
> Fab Four knew how to write a melody.
Okay. Tell you what. Get back to me in say, 10, 15 years. Maybe you'll
hear something you'll like in the way of rap. Perhaps a future Nelson
Riddle will make a nice elevator arrangement of Grandmaster's Message
that will tickle your fancy.
av
AV
> Clifford Ando (ca...@usc.edu) wrote:
>
> : If rap songs
> : are, on the whole, rhythmically and harmonically less complex than the
> : Four Last Songs, what of it?
just as an aside, and imho, perhaps harmonically less complex, but not
necessarily rhythmically!
av
John Gavin
consciousness:
RAP - "Man is an animal - accept it and don't be up-tight."
J.S. BACH - Man is human, and not only that -- man can become Divine.
AV
>
And if you define "art" as
> something that excels in its particular field, art can be anything:
snip....
are we converging?
av