Verdi Requiem: Fricsay
DSCH symphony 6
Q1: How does Fricsay rate? (too late I already have it)
Q2: What other versions do you like?
Fred
Tony Movshon
> Q1: How does Fricsay rate? (too late I already have it)
Which one? I prefer the live one (the earlier of the 2 on DGG)
> Q2: What other versions do you like?
We had a recent thread on this, where the usual suspects were named:
Serafin (1920-something), Toscanini 1940, Fricsay, Muti I, Solti I,
Giulini I, Gardiner.
Tony Movshon
mov...@nyu.edu
W. J. McCutcheon
DSCH symphony 6 <dschsy...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000320004328...@ng-fm1.aol.com...
>
> Q1: How does Fricsay rate? (too late I already have it)
>
> Q2: What other versions do you like?
>
> Fred
>
>
Gardiner/ORR/Monteverdi Choir (Philips) ... great performance on period
instruments.
-- Bill McCutcheon
John H
wrote:
>
>Q1: How does Fricsay rate? (too late I already have it)
>
>Q2: What other versions do you like?
>
>Fred
>
>
There are no other versions.
John Harkness
Terrymelin
>instruments.
IMHO this is one of the worst Verdi Requiems ever recorded. I don't know what
it is but it sure isn't Verdi. How could anyone like this one?
Terry Ellsworth
Dgable6
In general, he's as good as it gets, and it's really a pity he died
comparatively early in his recording career. That being said, I, unlike many
others on this newgroup, find both of his recordings of the Verdi Requiem
disappointing.
>Q2: What other versions do you like?
I love the Toscanini NBC SO recording that nobody else around here likes, not
least for the soloists but also for Arturo himself. Needless to say, his
recording is fast and a bit too clipped, but Verdi was the composer he
understood best, and this is a white hot performance. Some people don't like
Nelli's voice. It doesn't bother me and I find her a passionate and expressive
singer. Barbieri ain't got much of a trill, but she is in beautiful form.
Temperamentally she is the ideal Verdi mezzo. The young di Stefano is not a
restrained patrician performer, but his unashamedly ingenuous approach (no
different from the way he would have approached a Neapolitan song) works for
me. It's a sheer pleasure to hear him before he ruined his voice. I can't
imagine anybody expressing reservations about the generous supply of
mellifluous tone Siepi brings to the bass part, and his rock solid musicianship
is equally in evidence.
I also rather uncharacteristically like the famous Giulini set with
Schwarzkopf, Ludwig, Gedda, and Ghiaurov. Schwarzkopf is a little weird but
not overly mannered. Ludwig is in big fat gorgeous voice. Gedda sings sweetly
and beautifully. Ghiaurov has a big fat voice but is just a tiny bit crude and
can't count during the Mors stupebit. Giulini's approach is more "lyrical" as
they say than Toscanini's, but his performance never wilts on the vine. For
Giulini after 1960 it's a surprisingly well motivated performance.
Price, Elias, Bjoerling, Tozzi, Reiner looks ideal on paper. For some reason
Reiner is mostly pretty dull here. Singers are very good. Bjoerling's
Ingemisco is worth the price of admission and Reiner doesn't screw it up.
I rather like Serafin's old recording with Caniglia, Gigli, et al, but not for
the old fashioned singers. Serafin's performance is what I find riveting.
The first Muti recording is pretty good. He's everywhere at least as fast as
Toscanini, in the opening of the Dies Irae TOO FAST. The trumpets can't play
as fast as the tempo he takes. None of the singers is in truly luscious voice,
but except for the merely adequate and slightly adenoidal tenor, the others
give the performances of their lives.
I have absolutely no use for Robert Shaw or Karajan. Dont' like either Solti
recording either, although he's not blandly efficient like Shaw and he doesn't
smother Verdi's surface in a beautiful molasses sheen like Karajan. Still, he
seems uncomfortable with this music. There's not quite enough Germanic
orchestrational meat on the bones even of the Requiem for Solti to sink his
teeth into. His approach is somehow too large scale and ponderous for the
piece, and he's not an especially idiomatic phraser of Verdi's melodies. He
doesn't know what to do with the oom-pah accompaniment of the Lacrimosa for
example. I don't think Solti is really comfortable with any Verdi earlier than
Otello. (I have heard a terrific live Falstaff with Solti and the CSO and I
like Solti's contribution to his earlier recording of Otello.)
-david gable
Dgable6
The Gardiner is notable for its mediocre singers, fleet tempi, emaciated
orchestral sound, and absence of phrasing.
-david gable
Simon Roberts
: Q1: How does Fricsay rate? (too late I already have it)
There's no "it"; there are two on DG. I prefer the earlier of the two,
the single disc version on DG Originals; the soloists aren't quite
idiomatic (doesn't bother me), but there's a taut lyricism about the
performance which I find compelling (and absent from the second
performance, which seems rather slow by comparison). This is one of my
favorites.
: Q2: What other versions do you like?
Serafin (Dutton or Pearl, not the pallid EMI transfer); Toscanini (both
the 1940 with Bjorling and co and the RCA with Di Stefano and co.);
Giulini/EMI (not the DG remake); Muti/EMI with Scotto and co (not his EMI
remake); plus numerous other recordings for various "little" reasons
which prevent them from being recommendations to anyone but a
"specialist" (e.g., Blasi's perfectly sung quiet section of the "Libera
me" in an otherwise not really desirable recording conducted by
Corboz)....
Simon
Simon Roberts
: I love the Toscanini NBC SO recording that nobody else around here likes, not
: least for the soloists but also for Arturo himself. Needless to say, his
: recording is fast and a bit too clipped, but Verdi was the composer he
: understood best, and this is a white hot performance.
You're not alone -- and it's not always fast; one reason why his "Dies
Irae" is so exciting is that by choosing what may be the slowest tempo on
records, he is able to invest it with a crushing power that's not
possible at tempi that are much faster (certainly not at the extremely
fast tempo Muti chose in his first recording).
Some people don't like
: Nelli's voice. It doesn't bother me and I find her a passionate and expressive
: singer. Barbieri ain't got much of a trill, but she is in beautiful form.
: Temperamentally she is the ideal Verdi mezzo. The young di Stefano is not a
: restrained patrician performer, but his unashamedly ingenuous approach (no
: different from the way he would have approached a Neapolitan song) works for
: me. It's a sheer pleasure to hear him before he ruined his voice. I can't
: imagine anybody expressing reservations about the generous supply of
: mellifluous tone Siepi brings to the bass part, and his rock solid musicianship
: is equally in evidence.
Agree on all counts. My mind is temporarily blanking, but does Barbieri
need a trill in the Requiem?
Simon
wk...@juno.com
dga...@aol.com (Dgable6) wrote:
> The Gardiner is notable for its mediocre singers, fleet tempi, > >
> emaciated orchestral sound, and absence of phrasing.
And a dynamic range that is so wide as to preclude home listening.
Bill
--
William D. Kasimer
wk...@juno.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Terrymelin
>orchestral sound, and absence of phrasing.
>
Exactly. The praise heaped upon this recording from some quarters amazes me.
Are they actually listening?
Another one to avoid is the Reiner from 1959 I believe. Everything seems to go
wrong here despite having L. Price and Bjorling. On paper this looks like a
stunner but in actuality it's quite dull.
I've always liked the deSabata with ES, di Stefano, et al. Sometimes it's so
slow you want to get up out of your chair and move it along but I also find it
incredibly moving. And diStefano never sounded this good again!
Terry Ellsworth
Dgable6
>need a trill in the Requiem?
Yup. What's the mvmt where tenor and mezzo soprano all sing the same slow
phrase with a trill at the cadence? My mind will spit out the tune but not the
text and I haven't the patience to go check.
-david gable
JRsnfld
--Jeff
Simon Roberts
: > My mind is temporarily blanking, but does Barbieri
It's very frustrating being stuck in my office nowhere near a cd of the
work; all I can come up with is the "hostias" where the tenor and bass
both do that (with a trill on "offerimus"(and "vitam" when it returns)) --
which reminds me of what's probably the biggest single vocal problem in
performances of this piece: the number of tenors and basses who can trill
at that (or, presumably, any other) point is tiny.
Simon
Simon Roberts
: >The Gardiner is notable for its mediocre singers, fleet tempi, emaciated
: >orchestral sound, and absence of phrasing.
: >
: >-david gable
: Exactly. The praise heaped upon this recording from some quarters amazes me.
: Are they actually listening?
I don't think it's that bad, but I find it amazing that so many should
think his soloists -- fine (except for the tenor, who has no business
singing anything) for an oratorio, perhaps -- are suitable for this music.
At least the soprano gets the quiet section of the "Libera me" more or
less right, but the notion that von Otter and Miles are Verdi singers is
bizarre.
: Another one to avoid is the Reiner from 1959 I believe. Everything seems to go
: wrong here despite having L. Price and Bjorling. On paper this looks like a
: stunner but in actuality it's quite dull.
Indeed, even when the tempi pick up after the opening movement. But it's
better than Barbirolli's horror....
Simon
The Melsons
perfectly fine here and also quite good in AT's "Otello" and "Ballo"
recordings. For those who denigrate Nelli, tell me where she sounds so
awful, please - certainly not in these recordings.
Mark Melson
Mar 2000 14:27:53 GMT, dga...@aol.com (Dgable6) wrote:
>>Q1: How does Fricsay rate?
>
>In general, he's as good as it gets, and it's really a pity he died
>comparatively early in his recording career. That being said, I, unlike many
>others on this newgroup, find both of his recordings of the Verdi Requiem
>disappointing.
>
>>Q2: What other versions do you like?
>
>I love the Toscanini NBC SO recording that nobody else around here likes, not
>least for the soloists but also for Arturo himself. Needless to say, his
>recording is fast and a bit too clipped, but Verdi was the composer he
>understood best, and this is a white hot performance. Some people don't like
>Nelli's voice. It doesn't bother me and I find her a passionate and expressive
>singer. Barbieri ain't got much of a trill, but she is in beautiful form.
>Temperamentally she is the ideal Verdi mezzo. The young di Stefano is not a
>restrained patrician performer, but his unashamedly ingenuous approach (no
>different from the way he would have approached a Neapolitan song) works for
>me. It's a sheer pleasure to hear him before he ruined his voice. I can't
>imagine anybody expressing reservations about the generous supply of
>mellifluous tone Siepi brings to the bass part, and his rock solid musicianship
>is equally in evidence.
>
Dgable6
>perfectly fine here and also quite good in AT's "Otello" and "Ballo"
>recordings. For those who denigrate Nelli, tell me where she sounds so
>awful, please - certainly not in these recordings.
I agree with what you write about Nelli, but I do think we are in the minority.
During the very brief period when I contributed to rmo, I regularly got flamed
as if I were out of my mind to suggest that there could be anything good to say
about Nelli whatsoever. In the only performances by her that I know (as
Amelia, Desdemona, Alice Ford, and Aida and in the Verdi Requiem, all under
Toscanini), I think she is well nigh ideal both musically and expressively,
although I can imagine others not liking the voice per se.
-david gable
Dgable6
Peerce could.
-david gable
DSCH symphony 6
>
>There's no "it"; there are two on DG.
I have the DG double CD with "Libera Me" on CD 2 with the Rossini Stabat Mater
as a filler. The recording is in MONO.
Fred
Don Rice
Dgable6 wrote:
Add me to thye list of Nelli admirers. Not the greatest of all sopranos but
certainly able to bring appropriate and more than adequate technical and emotional
abilities to the parts you mention and not totally screwing up the recorded
performances.
Don
Matthew B. Tepper
I'm afraid I find her very weak as Aida, but the video of those concerts
are even less kind to her, making her appear to be reading the words off
of the ceiling.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
Simon Roberts
: I'm afraid I find her very weak as Aida, but the video of those concerts
: are even less kind to her, making her appear to be reading the words off
: of the ceiling.
Talking of which, and getting back to the Requiem, does anyone who's seen
the video from an Edinburgh Festival c. 20 years ago conducted by Abbado
have any idea what it is that Margaret Price keeps looking at up, and to
one side, most of the time when she's singing?
Simon
Don Rice
"Matthew B. Tepper" wrote:
> Don Rice wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > Add me to thye list of Nelli admirers. Not the greatest of all
> > sopranos but certainly able to bring appropriate and more than
> > adequate technical and emotional abilities to the parts you mention
> > and not totally screwing up the recorded performances.
> > Don
>
> I'm afraid I find her very weak as Aida, but the video of those concerts
> are even less kind to her, making her appear to be reading the words off
> of the ceiling.
>
I can think of at least one Aida whose performance makes that recording
unlistenable for me and a few who are better than Nelli. She ain't the
greatest but a number of efforts at singing the part on recordings are much
worse than hers. I can put up with her weaknesses for the overall excellence
of the whole performance.
Don
Matthew B. Tepper
To be sure, her Aida is not the worst thing on the set (that would have
to be the mediocre Amneris). But I certainly agree about the entire
performance, the best-*conducted* one I can ever imagine!
Dgable6
The only thing I'll concede, even about Nelli's Aida, is that, of the Verdi
roles she recorded with Toscanini, Aida requires the biggest voice, and one a
little bit bigger than Nelli's.
-david gable
Russell W. Miller
Both recordings are mono (at least according to the CD packaging.) The one
you have is the live one from 1960, in its DG Double incarnation. The same
performance was also released in the Dokumente series, the coupling there
being a 1952 live version of the Quattro pezzi sacri. The Fricsay Verdi
Requiem on a single DG Originals disc is the 1953 commercial recording.
The total timing gives some idea of the contrast between these two
recordings: 75:28 in 1953, 92:10 in 1960!
When I listen to the Verdi Requiem, most often I choose either this live
Fricsay, or the Toscanini recording mentioned earlier in this thread. I
plan to burn the Toscanini as a single CD, just as RCA should have done.
RWM